WEBVTT 00:00:03.115 --> 00:00:06.270 Matt Abrahams: Each of us needs to have a hobby or outlet that 00:00:06.270 --> 00:00:08.310 helps us grow and develop. 00:00:08.790 --> 00:00:11.910 My name's Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at 00:00:11.910 --> 00:00:13.590 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:13.920 --> 00:00:17.169 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:17.890 --> 00:00:19.869 Today I look forward to speaking with Nick Thompson. 00:00:20.230 --> 00:00:24.130 Nick is the CEO of the Atlantic and the former editor-in-Chief of Wired. 00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:28.390 He's also a highly accomplished competitive runner holding the American 00:00:28.390 --> 00:00:34.480 age group record for men 45 and older in the 50 K race, and being ranked among 00:00:34.510 --> 00:00:36.940 the top master marathoners in the world. 00:00:37.330 --> 00:00:39.730 His newest book is The Running Ground. 00:00:40.120 --> 00:00:40.750 Welcome, Nick. 00:00:40.750 --> 00:00:42.460 I am super excited for our conversation. 00:00:42.610 --> 00:00:43.089 Nick Thompson: Thank you, Matt. 00:00:43.089 --> 00:00:46.950 I am thrilled to be here talking with you on my favorite campus in the world. 00:00:47.070 --> 00:00:47.850 Matt Abrahams: Should we get started? 00:00:47.850 --> 00:00:48.300 Nick Thompson: Let's do it. 00:00:48.450 --> 00:00:48.960 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:00:49.290 --> 00:00:52.440 You've had a front row seat to many, many changes that we've all seen 00:00:52.440 --> 00:00:53.820 in the way that we communicate. 00:00:54.060 --> 00:00:58.170 What makes for a good communicator in today's world of likes, LLMs, and 00:00:58.290 --> 00:01:00.000 quite frankly, let's face it, laziness. 00:01:00.210 --> 00:01:03.510 Nick Thompson: This is clichéd, but I found that the things that 00:01:03.510 --> 00:01:07.155 work are clarity and authenticity. 00:01:07.395 --> 00:01:10.185 If you can get across what you're really trying to say, if you can 00:01:10.185 --> 00:01:14.265 say it honestly, specifically, and ideally, briefly, that's good. 00:01:14.595 --> 00:01:17.625 And you can say it in a way that feels like it's you. 00:01:18.045 --> 00:01:18.705 That's great. 00:01:18.705 --> 00:01:20.475 Now you can fake authenticity. 00:01:20.475 --> 00:01:24.585 Authenticity is hard to define, but I definitely think that when you 00:01:24.855 --> 00:01:27.765 try to force yourself in a box, try to do something that doesn't feel 00:01:27.765 --> 00:01:29.745 natural, the audience can tell. 00:01:30.270 --> 00:01:32.820 Matt Abrahams: And you yourself, you write, how have you found 00:01:32.820 --> 00:01:34.289 your voice in all of this? 00:01:34.289 --> 00:01:36.389 What have you done to find what's authentic to you? 00:01:36.509 --> 00:01:38.220 Nick Thompson: There are a whole bunch of different ways I communicate. 00:01:38.220 --> 00:01:39.720 So I do a daily video, right? 00:01:39.720 --> 00:01:43.380 And the daily video is just me in the moment, right? 00:01:43.380 --> 00:01:44.520 And I film it wherever I am. 00:01:44.520 --> 00:01:48.539 Yesterday I filmed it because I had the idea while I was walking to the office on 00:01:48.539 --> 00:01:53.369 the wharf, and the only place I could film it was by balancing the phone above an ice 00:01:53.369 --> 00:01:57.010 machine stand facing out over the river. 00:01:57.190 --> 00:01:59.440 And then I stood up to do it, and then I realized I had a problem, 00:01:59.440 --> 00:02:03.010 which is that if I took a step back, I would go in the river, right? 00:02:03.370 --> 00:02:06.010 And so I had to be really careful last night not to fall. 00:02:06.430 --> 00:02:08.110 But what people like is, it's short. 00:02:08.110 --> 00:02:08.889 It's to the point. 00:02:08.889 --> 00:02:11.290 I explain what's happening in text, something that's on my 00:02:11.290 --> 00:02:13.870 mind, and I just do it where I am. 00:02:13.870 --> 00:02:15.640 It's not polished, it doesn't go through comms. 00:02:15.850 --> 00:02:17.055 So that's one form of communicating. 00:02:17.700 --> 00:02:20.070 Another form of communicating is of course, what I write, and 00:02:20.070 --> 00:02:21.210 that's much more serious, right? 00:02:21.210 --> 00:02:22.380 And that's polish. 00:02:22.380 --> 00:02:23.910 That's, I try to find voice. 00:02:23.910 --> 00:02:24.930 I try to add humor. 00:02:24.930 --> 00:02:27.270 I try to make it as brisk as possible. 00:02:27.270 --> 00:02:30.390 I try to have scenes and structure, all the things I learned in my years at The 00:02:30.390 --> 00:02:32.670 New Yorker, at Wired, at the Atlantic. 00:02:33.030 --> 00:02:37.260 So that's a very different kind, but both forms are things I care about a lot. 00:02:37.630 --> 00:02:38.790 Matt Abrahams: How much do you edit your work? 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:39.870 Nick Thompson: The book immensely. 00:02:39.870 --> 00:02:44.160 So my new book is just out and it's now November of 2025. 00:02:44.160 --> 00:02:48.720 I finished the first draft in August of 2023, and so I haven't done a word 00:02:48.720 --> 00:02:51.510 comparison, but I think if you were to do a word comparison of that first draft 00:02:51.510 --> 00:02:56.609 versus the final draft, probably 5% of the sentences existed in the final version. 00:02:56.670 --> 00:02:59.334 It just went through so many different revisions trying to get it right. 00:02:59.955 --> 00:03:02.895 Matt Abrahams: I have learned in my time how important editing is. 00:03:03.045 --> 00:03:05.715 I used to think editing was just a necessary evil, but in 00:03:05.715 --> 00:03:08.445 fact, I think the most creative things happen during editing. 00:03:08.535 --> 00:03:11.325 You really do have to think through, who's my audience? 00:03:11.325 --> 00:03:12.435 What's my structure? 00:03:12.495 --> 00:03:13.995 How do I make it clear and concise? 00:03:14.265 --> 00:03:17.325 I've had to learn to be a better editor, and actually now I think I'm probably a 00:03:17.325 --> 00:03:19.245 better editor than writer as a result. 00:03:19.335 --> 00:03:19.875 Nick Thompson: It's interesting. 00:03:19.875 --> 00:03:22.785 I went the other way around where I was an editor first and then became a writer. 00:03:22.785 --> 00:03:24.015 So I loved the craft. 00:03:24.015 --> 00:03:26.595 And you would watch at The New Yorker, or I worked at this place called 00:03:26.595 --> 00:03:29.535 Legal Affairs before, and you'd come in and you'd get this 10,000 word 00:03:29.535 --> 00:03:30.615 draft and be hard to get through. 00:03:30.615 --> 00:03:33.375 And then you would go through all these rounds and you'd end up with 00:03:33.375 --> 00:03:37.815 this beautiful 6,000 word final version that had all the same good 00:03:37.815 --> 00:03:42.525 information and was just much cleaner, tighter, better structured, character 00:03:42.525 --> 00:03:44.295 handoffs, chronology, everything. 00:03:44.505 --> 00:03:48.630 And so with my book, at the end, I was going through it every, I was like reading 00:03:48.630 --> 00:03:50.580 out loud every a hundred word sequencing. 00:03:50.580 --> 00:03:51.540 Is there anything I should cut? 00:03:51.540 --> 00:03:52.140 Anything I like? 00:03:52.140 --> 00:03:54.270 Do I actually have something interesting in this paragraph? 00:03:54.270 --> 00:03:56.190 If I don't have anything interesting in this paragraph, let's get rid of this 00:03:56.190 --> 00:03:59.579 whole paragraph, and really working to make it tight and controlled. 00:03:59.579 --> 00:04:02.970 And I actually made these giant maps of the chronology and like, 00:04:02.970 --> 00:04:05.190 how can I do a handoff from this character to this character? 00:04:05.190 --> 00:04:08.415 Okay, this observation happened at this point involving this thing, 00:04:09.010 --> 00:04:10.390 which sort of relates to this event. 00:04:10.390 --> 00:04:12.220 So there are three places in the book I can put it. 00:04:12.460 --> 00:04:15.190 If I put it in the third place, what other pins does it knock 00:04:15.190 --> 00:04:16.360 over later on in the chronology? 00:04:16.360 --> 00:04:17.200 I put in the second. 00:04:17.200 --> 00:04:18.340 Okay, let's figure that out. 00:04:18.490 --> 00:04:21.100 So it was a really complicated process. 00:04:21.495 --> 00:04:22.995 Matt Abrahams: I want you to comment a little bit more about 00:04:22.995 --> 00:04:24.255 the reading out loud piece. 00:04:24.315 --> 00:04:27.885 I encourage people to do that, and I'm curious why you recommend that. 00:04:27.975 --> 00:04:33.165 And then to see your narrative, to see your story visually and to connect the 00:04:33.165 --> 00:04:37.185 dots, I am a huge supporter of having structure and logic in communication. 00:04:37.185 --> 00:04:38.865 So many people just list and itemize. 00:04:39.340 --> 00:04:42.220 I love this idea that you actually visually represent it and then 00:04:42.220 --> 00:04:45.130 take yourself through that mental questioning of, if I move things 00:04:45.130 --> 00:04:46.510 around, what are the consequences? 00:04:46.515 --> 00:04:47.440 I, I appreciate that. 00:04:47.440 --> 00:04:49.000 But talk to me about the reading out loud. 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:51.160 Nick Thompson: That was something I started really doing at The New 00:04:51.160 --> 00:04:54.430 Yorker and I didn't have confidence, so I worked at The New Yorker from 00:04:54.430 --> 00:04:59.984 about age 34 to 41, so at like a very important point in my career. 00:05:00.344 --> 00:05:04.005 And I started a moment where I, I had done well in journalism, obviously I got 00:05:04.005 --> 00:05:06.705 hired at The New Yorker, but I didn't have full confidence and I certainly 00:05:06.705 --> 00:05:07.724 didn't have confidence in my writing. 00:05:07.965 --> 00:05:09.854 And I show up at this place with the best writers in the world, 00:05:10.125 --> 00:05:11.895 and I wanted to be like them. 00:05:11.895 --> 00:05:13.125 And I knew I couldn't write like them. 00:05:13.245 --> 00:05:16.065 And so I would go home and I would take their stories and I would read 00:05:16.065 --> 00:05:18.945 them out loud and I would try to understand what are they doing? 00:05:18.945 --> 00:05:22.140 Because when you read out loud you force yourself not to skip words, right? 00:05:22.169 --> 00:05:24.690 When you're reading on paper, your eyes are scanning, you're moving, 00:05:24.690 --> 00:05:26.909 you're like taking a little piece of this paragraph and that piece 00:05:26.909 --> 00:05:29.820 paragraph, and you can understand voice and flow, and it comes through. 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:33.479 You read out loud, forcing yourself to really understand 00:05:33.539 --> 00:05:34.890 and to study it through it. 00:05:35.219 --> 00:05:38.804 And then when you do it for yourself, you can't cheat, right? 00:05:38.804 --> 00:05:41.789 When you're writing, you can pretend that the sentence makes sense, but you 00:05:41.789 --> 00:05:45.030 read it out loud and it doesn't make sense, it doesn't sound right, or it 00:05:45.030 --> 00:05:48.900 doesn't flow right, or it's repetitive, you're confronted with it like it's, 00:05:48.900 --> 00:05:51.840 you know, you look in the mirror and you really see yourself in a way you 00:05:51.840 --> 00:05:52.890 don't, when you're just reading it. 00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:53.310 Matt Abrahams: Right. 00:05:53.310 --> 00:05:55.140 It's almost like you're having a conversation with yourself. 00:05:55.140 --> 00:05:57.120 And if a conversation doesn't make sense, you change it. 00:05:57.390 --> 00:05:59.010 Nick Thompson: I will tell you that one of the scariest things for me, 00:05:59.190 --> 00:06:01.950 so I finished the book, I've gone through and I've read it out loud. 00:06:01.950 --> 00:06:04.320 I've gone through all this editing, and then I have to read the audio book, right? 00:06:04.320 --> 00:06:06.990 And you're in there for 14 hours, but at that point, you're done. 00:06:07.050 --> 00:06:08.130 You can't change anything. 00:06:08.130 --> 00:06:10.080 And I remember going to the studio the first day thinking, I'm gonna 00:06:10.080 --> 00:06:13.800 wanna change so many things when I read this out loud and then I didn't. 00:06:13.800 --> 00:06:13.975 It was fine. 00:06:14.745 --> 00:06:17.685 Matt Abrahams: One of the most stressful experiences I had in writing my 00:06:17.685 --> 00:06:19.215 latest book was the audiobook reading. 00:06:19.995 --> 00:06:24.044 I believe attention is the most precious commodity we have in the world today. 00:06:24.344 --> 00:06:28.575 How do you coach your editors and writers to craft sticky content that's 00:06:28.575 --> 00:06:32.865 not just soundbites, and how do you actually get people to write in a way 00:06:32.865 --> 00:06:34.604 that's meaningful and draws people in? 00:06:34.875 --> 00:06:36.854 Nick Thompson: There are a couple of rules that I follow that 00:06:36.854 --> 00:06:37.784 I think are really important. 00:06:37.935 --> 00:06:41.805 When I was working as an editor at Wired, I would push people and I would say, 00:06:42.044 --> 00:06:43.395 okay, let's take a look at your story. 00:06:43.515 --> 00:06:45.375 If you were to describe the story to someone at a cocktail 00:06:45.375 --> 00:06:46.664 party, would they be interested? 00:06:47.100 --> 00:06:49.860 And if you were to describe this section of the story, would they be interested? 00:06:50.250 --> 00:06:51.780 And if not, find a different story. 00:06:51.960 --> 00:06:52.260 Okay. 00:06:52.650 --> 00:06:55.080 Secondly, now can they visualize it? 00:06:55.140 --> 00:06:58.140 Not necessarily is it gonna, you know, sell to a Hollywood screenwriter, 00:06:58.320 --> 00:07:01.380 but as they read the story, is there gonna be a little movie playing 00:07:01.380 --> 00:07:02.850 in the theater of the mind, right? 00:07:02.850 --> 00:07:04.770 And if there's not, you need to rewrite it. 00:07:04.860 --> 00:07:07.620 'Cause if they can't see it, right, and if they can't relate to it, 00:07:07.710 --> 00:07:08.700 they're not gonna be able to follow it. 00:07:08.700 --> 00:07:11.070 Okay, now what is their emotional reaction gonna be? 00:07:11.070 --> 00:07:12.090 It has to be something. 00:07:12.420 --> 00:07:15.270 They can be angry, they can hate it, they can love it, but if there's no emotional 00:07:15.270 --> 00:07:16.730 reaction, what's the point of it? 00:07:16.730 --> 00:07:19.500 Okay, now we've got those things in order and like the writers there. 00:07:19.500 --> 00:07:20.880 So now let's go through the story. 00:07:21.305 --> 00:07:24.335 Let's just identify exactly how the narrative is working. 00:07:24.335 --> 00:07:25.025 Why is this here? 00:07:25.115 --> 00:07:25.835 Why is that here? 00:07:25.925 --> 00:07:27.425 Is it completely chronological? 00:07:27.695 --> 00:07:29.105 Do you have any extraneous characters? 00:07:29.105 --> 00:07:34.505 And just going through with writers to make sure that the piece was as crisp 00:07:34.505 --> 00:07:36.485 as possible, as clean as possible. 00:07:36.885 --> 00:07:40.395 Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate the idea of visualizing your 00:07:40.395 --> 00:07:43.094 narrative, your story, seeing it, what is it showing people? 00:07:43.364 --> 00:07:47.234 And then what makes ideas sticky for sure is the emotion and thinking about what 00:07:47.234 --> 00:07:50.354 is the emotion you're drawing out and how do you bring that about in people? 00:07:50.655 --> 00:07:52.784 I can't speak to somebody who does what you do without 00:07:52.784 --> 00:07:54.405 bringing up the AI question. 00:07:54.825 --> 00:07:59.265 What role should AI play in journalism specifically and in our everyday 00:07:59.325 --> 00:08:01.034 communication more generally? 00:08:01.215 --> 00:08:03.765 Nick Thompson: So AI is the hardest thing in journalism by far. 00:08:04.005 --> 00:08:08.655 And the reason it's so hard is that there are a whole bunch of different 00:08:08.864 --> 00:08:10.635 matrices on which you have to evaluate it. 00:08:10.905 --> 00:08:14.505 And there's a question of how journalists should use AI to do their report. 00:08:14.979 --> 00:08:17.140 And my view is they should use it all the time, right? 00:08:17.140 --> 00:08:20.289 Not to write anything because the reader is reading the story. 00:08:20.289 --> 00:08:21.039 It has your name on. 00:08:21.039 --> 00:08:22.150 It should be you, right? 00:08:22.239 --> 00:08:23.739 So they should never write a sentence. 00:08:23.739 --> 00:08:24.940 Also, it's a bad writer right now. 00:08:24.940 --> 00:08:27.430 Maybe it'll get good, but even when it's good, it should be you. 00:08:27.820 --> 00:08:33.825 But for finding stories, for understanding topics, for like figuring out chronology. 00:08:33.825 --> 00:08:37.455 Take your 3000 word story before it goes to the editor and say, hey, are there any 00:08:37.455 --> 00:08:39.075 chronological gaps in this story, right? 00:08:39.075 --> 00:08:42.315 There's a whole set of editorial things you can do with AI. 00:08:42.555 --> 00:08:43.155 Put it in there. 00:08:43.155 --> 00:08:44.025 It'll give you suggestions. 00:08:44.025 --> 00:08:46.905 You can fix 'em or not fix 'em, but if you don't, I think you're crazy. 00:08:47.325 --> 00:08:47.985 So that's one thing. 00:08:48.569 --> 00:08:53.100 On the other hand, my profession has been very wary of adopting it. 00:08:53.189 --> 00:08:56.490 My company in particular, and the reason for that is, you know, 00:08:56.490 --> 00:08:59.490 the industry is built on theft and theft of our material, right? 00:08:59.490 --> 00:09:02.819 All of these companies came, scraped our sites, in violation 00:09:02.819 --> 00:09:05.760 of our terms of service, often using bots that they disguised. 00:09:05.850 --> 00:09:08.339 It made the people in my profession very angry. 00:09:08.550 --> 00:09:14.370 Secondly, they're quite scared because every study and every ranking of 00:09:14.370 --> 00:09:18.599 what industry is gonna be displaced the most, journalism is at the top. 00:09:18.599 --> 00:09:20.849 So they're very scared and they're very angry. 00:09:20.969 --> 00:09:24.420 And then also our business is being disrupted by AI, 00:09:24.420 --> 00:09:25.469 particularly in search, right? 00:09:25.469 --> 00:09:29.040 So we have an existential business threat that we're already facing. 00:09:29.130 --> 00:09:34.800 So there's this funny, complicated mess where we need to use AI, and I really want 00:09:34.800 --> 00:09:39.120 everybody to use AI, but more or less, everybody hates AI and is terrified of AI. 00:09:39.450 --> 00:09:40.830 Matt Abrahams: And do you use it in your daily life? 00:09:40.950 --> 00:09:44.430 Nick Thompson: Oh, 50 times a day, like nonstop for prepping for anything. 00:09:44.760 --> 00:09:47.820 Last night I had to host a dinner for 18 people, and we're talking about 00:09:47.820 --> 00:09:49.350 a really complicated type question. 00:09:49.770 --> 00:09:52.410 I didn't know the 18 people, I know a couple of 'em. 00:09:52.470 --> 00:09:55.920 So, alright, hey AI, get me bios. 00:09:56.040 --> 00:09:56.460 Okay, great. 00:09:56.790 --> 00:09:59.820 Now AI help me sort through the most interesting questions 00:09:59.820 --> 00:10:00.750 that relate to these bios. 00:10:00.870 --> 00:10:01.500 Okay, great. 00:10:01.560 --> 00:10:05.400 Now AI, please make me flashcards and quiz me on who everybody is. 00:10:05.400 --> 00:10:06.660 Gimme a name, I'll tell 'em their company. 00:10:06.660 --> 00:10:07.230 Gimme the company. 00:10:07.230 --> 00:10:07.860 I'll tell 'em the name. 00:10:08.430 --> 00:10:12.225 Takes a process that would've taken maybe six hours, makes 00:10:12.225 --> 00:10:13.335 it an hour process, right? 00:10:13.335 --> 00:10:15.735 And so I go to dinner, I'm totally prepped. 00:10:15.735 --> 00:10:17.355 I know everybody's name, I know their companies. 00:10:17.355 --> 00:10:20.445 I can identify their faces, and I have a bunch of good questions. 00:10:20.445 --> 00:10:23.355 And so it's so helpful. 00:10:23.805 --> 00:10:24.885 Matt Abrahams: That's a great use case. 00:10:24.945 --> 00:10:26.355 And one I might borrow from you. 00:10:26.715 --> 00:10:30.025 Like you, I enjoy running, but unlike you, I only run 10Ks. 00:10:30.045 --> 00:10:32.325 You're a true runner, marathons, ultra marathons. 00:10:32.475 --> 00:10:35.985 What does running mean for you, and how has it helped you in your life? 00:10:36.555 --> 00:10:38.955 Nick Thompson: It's my form of meditation, right? 00:10:39.420 --> 00:10:42.720 So I go out and I listen to the birds, listen to the sounds, listen to my 00:10:42.720 --> 00:10:44.580 breath, listen to my body, understand. 00:10:44.640 --> 00:10:46.710 It opens up all kinds of thinking. 00:10:46.710 --> 00:10:48.690 So it's a very important time in my day. 00:10:49.050 --> 00:10:51.480 By the way, I, because we're on the Stanford campus and we're not far 00:10:51.480 --> 00:10:54.480 from Campus Drive, I'll tell you when I decided never to listen to 00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:56.850 music, I was on the Stanford Track team my freshman year in college. 00:10:56.850 --> 00:10:58.440 I wasn't good enough to stay through, but I was good enough 00:10:58.440 --> 00:10:59.250 to be there freshman year. 00:10:59.655 --> 00:11:02.445 And I remember the coach Vin Lananna, who's one of the legends of the sport. 00:11:02.745 --> 00:11:05.865 And I remember it, he gathers us all around and he's like, I can't remember 00:11:05.865 --> 00:11:08.235 exactly what he said, but it was something like, you have a big race 00:11:08.235 --> 00:11:09.915 coming up and we're here to compete. 00:11:10.335 --> 00:11:11.235 We're here to try to win. 00:11:11.625 --> 00:11:12.465 We're here to do our best. 00:11:12.885 --> 00:11:15.525 And if you're not on board with that, just go put on your headphones 00:11:15.525 --> 00:11:16.725 and run around Campus Drive. 00:11:17.265 --> 00:11:20.459 And what he was saying is that if you're gonna be serious about it 00:11:20.459 --> 00:11:23.010 and you're really gonna try to like understand your body and improve, 00:11:23.400 --> 00:11:24.329 you have to turn off the music. 00:11:24.329 --> 00:11:25.530 You have to listen to yourself. 00:11:25.859 --> 00:11:27.000 Anyway, so back to your question. 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:32.819 So it's a way for me of meditating, releasing, getting out in the world. 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:34.530 I work in New York City, I live in Brooklyn. 00:11:34.589 --> 00:11:38.640 I'm very domesticated, but I used to love the mountains, right? 00:11:38.640 --> 00:11:41.099 I grew up and was outside all the time. 00:11:41.099 --> 00:11:44.099 Like the thing I love to do most is my mom would just let me go out the back door in 00:11:44.099 --> 00:11:45.750 Maine and I'd just go run in the forest. 00:11:45.750 --> 00:11:49.725 And so, running is a way to get back to the spirit of that little child. 00:11:49.725 --> 00:11:50.505 So that's important. 00:11:50.985 --> 00:11:55.695 But then it's also taught me all kinds of habits of mind and discipline and pacing. 00:11:55.695 --> 00:11:58.575 Like there are all kinds of lessons from the sport that apply to my business life. 00:11:58.575 --> 00:12:01.155 And then also I like to win and get faster. 00:12:01.395 --> 00:12:03.525 Matt Abrahams: I can tell you've got a competitive streak in you. 00:12:03.930 --> 00:12:08.280 I have always found and recommended that having some physical outlet, whatever it 00:12:08.280 --> 00:12:12.330 is, I don't care if it's building Lego models, playing music, uh, for me it's 00:12:12.330 --> 00:12:17.340 martial arts, finding some opportunity to express yourself in a different way. 00:12:17.430 --> 00:12:19.860 And like you, there are great learning opportunities. 00:12:19.860 --> 00:12:22.860 I hear you when you say you learn about yourself, your body, but you 00:12:22.860 --> 00:12:24.240 also can bring that into your work. 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:25.020 That's really important. 00:12:25.020 --> 00:12:25.320 Nick Thompson: It's great. 00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:26.910 And you disconnect from your phone, right? 00:12:26.910 --> 00:12:28.710 And you disconnect from all the stuff. 00:12:29.130 --> 00:12:32.649 One of my theories, people often ask like, why do so many people run marathons? 00:12:32.670 --> 00:12:34.719 Like, why do 55,000 people run the New York Marathon? 00:12:34.740 --> 00:12:37.949 I'm like, complicated reasons, but in part because they know they're 00:12:37.949 --> 00:12:40.800 on TikTok too much and running a marathon and training for a marathon 00:12:40.800 --> 00:12:41.760 is a way to get away from it. 00:12:42.120 --> 00:12:44.339 Matt Abrahams: Do you often run solo or do you run with other people? 00:12:44.790 --> 00:12:45.660 Nick Thompson: I mostly run solo. 00:12:45.660 --> 00:12:48.449 I prefer to run with other people, but then you have to schedule it 00:12:48.750 --> 00:12:51.870 and like my life is so complicated, I've just foregone that. 00:12:52.290 --> 00:12:54.540 Matt Abrahams: You've noted that running is the simplest sport 00:12:54.719 --> 00:12:57.900 and the simplicity can be a tool to understand complicated stuff. 00:12:58.020 --> 00:13:02.069 Can you give us a concrete example of how you've taken those lessons 00:13:02.069 --> 00:13:05.259 of simplicity and brought it into what you do for a daily thing? 00:13:05.609 --> 00:13:08.115 Nick Thompson: So what I mean by running is the simplest sport, you really, 00:13:08.115 --> 00:13:09.735 you control it all yourself, right? 00:13:09.735 --> 00:13:12.464 You can open the door and run, and you can do it any day, anytime of night. 00:13:12.704 --> 00:13:15.885 I ran at 4 o'clock this morning and it was cold, but it was fine. 00:13:15.915 --> 00:13:18.495 I couldn't have done any other sport at 4 o'clock in the morning 00:13:18.495 --> 00:13:20.025 in Washington, DC on the wharf. 00:13:20.235 --> 00:13:21.555 No one was there to play tennis with me. 00:13:21.854 --> 00:13:22.515 I didn't have a ball. 00:13:22.515 --> 00:13:23.594 I didn't have a bat, right? 00:13:23.865 --> 00:13:27.104 Running, you really can control when you do it and how you do it. 00:13:27.104 --> 00:13:29.474 And not only that, you can tell how you're doing. 00:13:29.865 --> 00:13:31.115 You can go run a 10K. 00:13:31.454 --> 00:13:34.185 And you run it a minute slower than last year, that's bad. 00:13:34.214 --> 00:13:36.225 You run it a minute faster, that's good. 00:13:36.735 --> 00:13:39.045 And there's no external factor, like maybe the weather, but 00:13:39.045 --> 00:13:40.305 really it's like about you. 00:13:40.665 --> 00:13:45.855 And so what that does is it means that you can see yourself aging in 00:13:45.855 --> 00:13:47.775 a way that's hard with other sports. 00:13:47.775 --> 00:13:51.510 You can see, I just went through this thing where like I couldn't really 00:13:51.510 --> 00:13:54.000 tell I was sick, but I was kind of sick, and then I ran a marathon. 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:55.500 It was like 30 minutes off my goal. 00:13:55.500 --> 00:13:57.540 Well, clearly I had some kind of respiratory problem, like you 00:13:57.540 --> 00:14:01.500 understand things about yourself, but then the important part is 00:14:01.710 --> 00:14:04.470 because it's you and because you control it, this gets to the habits. 00:14:04.740 --> 00:14:08.220 You can go every day, which means that you can teach yourself a 00:14:08.220 --> 00:14:10.740 habit, sort of a stoic habit of, I'm gonna go and run every day. 00:14:11.220 --> 00:14:12.600 It's like a tennis game, and you've got somebody else. 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:13.830 Like it's a little harder. 00:14:13.830 --> 00:14:15.960 It's harder to blame yourself when you fail, and it's harder to 00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:17.220 credit yourself when you succeed. 00:14:17.220 --> 00:14:23.910 And so, running for better or for worse, really lets us kind of form ourselves and 00:14:23.910 --> 00:14:26.880 shape ourselves in good ways, bad ways. 00:14:27.270 --> 00:14:30.390 Matt Abrahams: I really like how you use it as a tool for growth. 00:14:31.740 --> 00:14:34.260 Before we end, I like to ask everybody three questions. 00:14:34.260 --> 00:14:37.425 One I make up just for you, and two, I've been asking since the podcast started. 00:14:37.485 --> 00:14:38.130 Are you up for that? 00:14:38.130 --> 00:14:39.000 Nick Thompson: Of course. 00:14:39.450 --> 00:14:42.570 Matt Abrahams: So in order to train, like you must have to train for 00:14:42.570 --> 00:14:46.290 ultra marathons, marathons, you must be a master at time management. 00:14:46.290 --> 00:14:48.180 How do you make it fit in? 00:14:48.300 --> 00:14:51.780 Clearly it's a priority, but I have a lot of things that keep me busy in life. 00:14:51.780 --> 00:14:55.350 I can't imagine the allocation of time I need to run the distances you do. 00:14:55.680 --> 00:14:58.620 Nick Thompson: Well, I mean, I train 8 hours a week, which is a lot, but 00:14:58.620 --> 00:15:01.440 it's not 20 hours, it's not 30 hours. 00:15:01.680 --> 00:15:03.360 And a lot of it is multitasking. 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:06.330 Like I run to the office, I could take the subway to the office 00:15:06.330 --> 00:15:07.530 and it would take just as long. 00:15:07.530 --> 00:15:11.760 So it does take some time, but not that much time. 00:15:11.760 --> 00:15:15.540 And I think that net, it creates time because of the way it relaxes 00:15:15.540 --> 00:15:19.050 me and the way it opens my mind and lets me think about things. 00:15:19.050 --> 00:15:22.170 So I sometimes wonder, and I think my wife probably wonders this too, 00:15:22.170 --> 00:15:23.970 like, Nick just stopped running. 00:15:23.970 --> 00:15:27.090 Like what would, where would that extra time go to? 00:15:27.090 --> 00:15:30.795 Would it go to working more efficiently. 00:15:30.885 --> 00:15:33.045 I don't know what it would go to, but I think it would, I think my 00:15:33.045 --> 00:15:35.444 life wouldn't work as well if I didn't spend that time running. 00:15:35.745 --> 00:15:37.785 Matt Abrahams: I hear you on that, and because running is something 00:15:37.785 --> 00:15:39.944 you can do whenever you can use it as a way to get to work. 00:15:39.944 --> 00:15:40.665 I think that's great. 00:15:40.665 --> 00:15:44.055 So somebody who might be not as into running as you are might, 00:15:44.115 --> 00:15:46.334 upon hearing this say, oh, there's ways I can fit it in. 00:15:46.665 --> 00:15:49.935 Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:15:50.355 --> 00:15:51.704 Nick Thompson: I think Adam Grant's amazing. 00:15:51.944 --> 00:15:55.574 His ability to very pithily say what's important in life and to explain it. 00:15:55.875 --> 00:15:57.465 I just, I've never seen someone like that. 00:15:57.465 --> 00:16:00.165 Every time you see something that he says, something that he does and questions 00:16:00.165 --> 00:16:01.605 that he asks, I think he's just great. 00:16:01.905 --> 00:16:04.635 Matt Abrahams: He's a very economical communicator who also 00:16:04.635 --> 00:16:05.685 is able to get to the point. 00:16:05.865 --> 00:16:07.515 Question number three, our final question. 00:16:07.605 --> 00:16:11.834 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:16:12.405 --> 00:16:17.115 Nick Thompson: Understanding your audience, who are you talking to and why? 00:16:17.415 --> 00:16:21.045 I don't know what the exact right word is, but it's almost like the water of 00:16:21.045 --> 00:16:22.635 a recipe or the milk of the recipe. 00:16:22.635 --> 00:16:26.235 It's like, are you conveying the essential thing and is it right there? 00:16:26.595 --> 00:16:28.935 There can be some fluff around it to set people up, and there can be 00:16:28.935 --> 00:16:32.564 some fluff at the back, but are you putting the right thing at the core? 00:16:32.925 --> 00:16:36.135 Are you getting the actual important stuff in there? 00:16:36.375 --> 00:16:38.985 The third ingredient, you know, respect. 00:16:39.569 --> 00:16:42.089 Are you like respecting the person you're talking to? 00:16:42.089 --> 00:16:45.930 Are you respecting the audience and is it actually about them? 00:16:46.199 --> 00:16:47.250 And that's really important. 00:16:47.609 --> 00:16:49.709 Matt Abrahams: Focusing on the audience is by far the number 00:16:49.709 --> 00:16:51.089 one bit of advice people give. 00:16:51.300 --> 00:16:52.439 Critical to start there. 00:16:52.814 --> 00:16:56.235 This idea of distilling it down to its essence, its core, making 00:16:56.235 --> 00:16:58.785 sure that's clear and getting that upfront, really important. 00:16:59.145 --> 00:17:01.035 And I really like this idea of respect. 00:17:01.064 --> 00:17:04.125 I think people are so focused on just getting the information out. 00:17:04.125 --> 00:17:07.575 They don't really think about that respect, that somebody's 00:17:07.575 --> 00:17:10.994 giving you time to listen, to read that you need to respect them. 00:17:10.994 --> 00:17:13.545 You don't have to agree with them, and you might even challenge them. 00:17:14.040 --> 00:17:15.329 Nick, this has been fantastic. 00:17:15.420 --> 00:17:18.180 Not only have you taught us about better writing and better 00:17:18.180 --> 00:17:21.060 communication, but you've taught us about the importance of having a sport 00:17:21.060 --> 00:17:22.440 in our life that can really help. 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:23.400 And yours is running. 00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:27.270 I run as well, and I certainly can see how the feet on the ground 00:17:27.270 --> 00:17:29.010 can help you be grounded for sure. 00:17:29.010 --> 00:17:29.460 Thank you. 00:17:29.520 --> 00:17:30.120 Nick Thompson: Thank you so much. 00:17:32.340 --> 00:17:34.140 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:17:34.140 --> 00:17:36.330 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:17:36.570 --> 00:17:39.720 For more information on movement and activity and how it relates 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:43.590 to communication, please listen to episode 183 with Kelly McGonigal. 00:17:44.024 --> 00:17:48.705 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:17:49.004 --> 00:17:50.475 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:17:50.835 --> 00:17:52.575 With thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:17:53.189 --> 00:17:56.100 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:17:56.310 --> 00:17:58.139 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:17:58.350 --> 00:18:01.199 Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:18:01.590 --> 00:18:05.280 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:18:05.280 --> 00:18:07.350 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:18:07.679 --> 00:18:10.500 Please consider our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community where 00:18:10.500 --> 00:18:13.470 you can join a global community of people interested in honing and 00:18:13.470 --> 00:18:15.360 developing their communication skills. 00:18:15.689 --> 00:18:19.080 You get access to async lessons, an AI coach, quests 00:18:19.080 --> 00:18:20.459 and challenges, and much more. 00:18:20.850 --> 00:18:21.449 Join us at 00:18:21.489 --> 00:18:23.237 fastersmarter.io/learning. 00:18:23.237 --> 00:18:26.732 That's fastersmarter.io/learning.