1 00:00:00,606 --> 00:00:03,106 (light music) 2 00:00:05,610 --> 00:00:07,110 - This is Lab Medicine Rounds, 3 00:00:07,110 --> 00:00:09,450 a curated podcast for physicians, 4 00:00:09,450 --> 00:00:11,520 laboratory professionals and students. 5 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,372 I'm your host, Justin Kreuter, the Bow Tie Bandit of Blood, 6 00:00:14,372 --> 00:00:17,640 a transfusion medicine pathologist and assistant professor 7 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,450 of laboratory medicine and pathology at Mayo Clinic. 8 00:00:20,450 --> 00:00:22,908 Today we're rounding with Dr. Laura Tafe, 9 00:00:22,908 --> 00:00:26,610 who works as a surgical and molecular pathologist, 10 00:00:26,610 --> 00:00:29,150 and is an associate professor of pathology 11 00:00:29,150 --> 00:00:30,900 and laboratory medicine 12 00:00:30,900 --> 00:00:33,180 at Dartmouth Hitchcock Medical Center 13 00:00:33,180 --> 00:00:35,994 in Lebanon, New Hampshire, my alma mater. 14 00:00:35,994 --> 00:00:37,530 We're gonna be talking 15 00:00:37,530 --> 00:00:42,208 about the practice of art and medicine today. 16 00:00:42,208 --> 00:00:44,790 And I think relevant to that also 17 00:00:44,790 --> 00:00:46,680 is another plug is that Dr. Tafe 18 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:48,426 is also the current president 19 00:00:48,426 --> 00:00:53,190 of the Association of Molecular Pathology, so AMP. 20 00:00:53,190 --> 00:00:57,390 So a nice testament that being active in the arts 21 00:00:57,390 --> 00:01:00,150 does not hinder other career pursuits. 22 00:01:00,150 --> 00:01:02,880 So thanks for joining us today, Dr. Tafe. 23 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:03,713 - Thank you, Justin. 24 00:01:03,713 --> 00:01:07,290 It's a pleasure to get a chance to be on here with you 25 00:01:07,290 --> 00:01:08,280 and to see you. 26 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:09,480 It's been a long time 27 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:12,870 since we've had a chance to kind of talk and catch up. 28 00:01:12,870 --> 00:01:16,962 - So yeah, Dr. Tafe was my chief resident 29 00:01:16,962 --> 00:01:21,066 when I was starting off in my pathology career, 30 00:01:21,066 --> 00:01:25,563 honestly, back when I would wear regular neck ties. 31 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,906 - Before you were converted to the bow tie. 32 00:01:28,906 --> 00:01:30,573 - Yes, yes, exactly. 33 00:01:32,242 --> 00:01:34,882 So why don't we kick off for this episode 34 00:01:34,882 --> 00:01:39,226 with kind of what is your artist origin story? 35 00:01:39,226 --> 00:01:40,112 - Oh, sure. 36 00:01:40,112 --> 00:01:43,162 I think it really goes back to when I was a child. 37 00:01:43,162 --> 00:01:46,527 I think we are really all born as creative people 38 00:01:46,527 --> 00:01:48,720 and it really kind of depends 39 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:50,280 on how we're nourished from there. 40 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,520 So I grew up in a family of teachers 41 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,180 and my father was a music teacher, 42 00:01:57,180 --> 00:02:00,330 and until he switched careers kind of midlife, 43 00:02:00,330 --> 00:02:02,058 and my mom was an English teacher 44 00:02:02,058 --> 00:02:05,490 and she was also a writer and loved music. 45 00:02:05,490 --> 00:02:07,320 And so I also have an aunt 46 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,440 who's always been very active in art. 47 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,570 So I think that was kind of always the environment 48 00:02:12,570 --> 00:02:13,410 I grew up with. 49 00:02:13,410 --> 00:02:16,650 And I kind of had parallel development of my interest 50 00:02:16,650 --> 00:02:18,498 in art and science and medicine, 51 00:02:18,498 --> 00:02:22,800 all really kind of throughout my early life. 52 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,010 And I think probably around undergrad 53 00:02:26,010 --> 00:02:28,830 is when they probably started to verge a little bit 54 00:02:28,830 --> 00:02:31,890 and I felt like I needed to focus on one or the other. 55 00:02:31,890 --> 00:02:36,890 And I clearly went down the science pathway in medicine 56 00:02:37,110 --> 00:02:42,000 and yeah, so I became a physician. 57 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,850 I didn't do too much art for a long time. 58 00:02:44,850 --> 00:02:47,910 I would occasionally take a weekend class 59 00:02:47,910 --> 00:02:50,610 or dabble in it here and there, 60 00:02:50,610 --> 00:02:53,730 but I kind of put that part of myself aside for a while. 61 00:02:53,730 --> 00:02:56,610 And through training I also had two children, 62 00:02:56,610 --> 00:03:00,418 so I had a young family and as you know, 63 00:03:00,418 --> 00:03:03,000 medical training takes a lot of our time 64 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:04,740 and our focus and energy. 65 00:03:04,740 --> 00:03:08,010 So that part of myself 66 00:03:08,010 --> 00:03:10,162 and my life kind of got put aside for a while. 67 00:03:10,162 --> 00:03:12,810 And then it's kind of had a revival 68 00:03:12,810 --> 00:03:14,430 in the more recent years, 69 00:03:14,430 --> 00:03:18,034 the last three or so years I've been doing analog collage 70 00:03:18,034 --> 00:03:22,330 which is cutting up paper and gluing it together. 71 00:03:22,330 --> 00:03:25,770 And so that's been a real pleasure 72 00:03:25,770 --> 00:03:30,770 and some of what brought me to coming back to my art, 73 00:03:31,450 --> 00:03:35,730 my mom passed away in 2014 really unexpectedly. 74 00:03:35,730 --> 00:03:37,860 And that kind of sent me into a spiral 75 00:03:37,860 --> 00:03:40,710 of grief and depression for a while. 76 00:03:40,710 --> 00:03:44,070 And around 2019, 77 00:03:44,070 --> 00:03:46,530 I was just a little bit needing 78 00:03:46,530 --> 00:03:49,860 to do something more with my time and my life, 79 00:03:49,860 --> 00:03:52,380 and my children were getting a little bit older 80 00:03:52,380 --> 00:03:55,980 and that's when I decided to come back to the art. 81 00:03:55,980 --> 00:04:00,600 So since then it's been a high priority of mine 82 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,946 and really kind of integrated more into my day-to-day life. 83 00:04:03,946 --> 00:04:06,210 - What does that look like, 84 00:04:06,210 --> 00:04:08,458 that relationship of your art practice 85 00:04:08,458 --> 00:04:10,110 and medical practice? 86 00:04:10,110 --> 00:04:11,543 You know, like many of us 87 00:04:11,543 --> 00:04:15,114 kind of appreciate healthcare is quite demanding, 88 00:04:15,114 --> 00:04:19,350 especially just to keep up with what's going on, 89 00:04:19,350 --> 00:04:23,770 let alone be a leader like you in AMP, 90 00:04:23,770 --> 00:04:27,343 but also you mentioned that you really prioritize 91 00:04:27,343 --> 00:04:29,310 your art practice. 92 00:04:29,310 --> 00:04:32,040 So what does that relationship look like? 93 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,162 - I think it's an evolving one 94 00:04:34,162 --> 00:04:37,530 because it's becoming different things 95 00:04:37,530 --> 00:04:40,080 as I continue to do it. 96 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,530 So at first my art was very, very personal to me 97 00:04:43,530 --> 00:04:47,100 and was really kind of an extension of myself 98 00:04:47,100 --> 00:04:48,540 totally separate from my job, 99 00:04:48,540 --> 00:04:50,026 totally separate from medicine. 100 00:04:50,026 --> 00:04:53,266 And then slowly as I've started to share my art, 101 00:04:53,266 --> 00:04:56,430 they're kind of starting to interdigitate a little bit, 102 00:04:56,430 --> 00:04:58,023 which is pretty interesting. 103 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:00,890 I do prioritize it 104 00:05:00,890 --> 00:05:03,930 in that I am conscious about setting aside time 105 00:05:03,930 --> 00:05:08,160 for myself on a weekly basis to go and do something. 106 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:09,600 And collage is very nice 107 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,900 because it can be as short or as long as you would like. 108 00:05:12,900 --> 00:05:15,690 So I can spend 15 minutes in the evening 109 00:05:15,690 --> 00:05:18,818 just cutting things up or I can spend a few hours. 110 00:05:18,818 --> 00:05:22,890 And I also carry my supplies with me 111 00:05:22,890 --> 00:05:24,540 literally everywhere I go. 112 00:05:24,540 --> 00:05:27,780 So I always have paper and glue and scissors, 113 00:05:27,780 --> 00:05:29,670 so even if I'm traveling for work, 114 00:05:29,670 --> 00:05:32,070 I can take a few minutes in the evening 115 00:05:32,070 --> 00:05:34,290 and cut up some paper and stuff like that, 116 00:05:34,290 --> 00:05:36,660 that makes me happy and kind of helps me unwind. 117 00:05:36,660 --> 00:05:40,200 So we can talk a little bit more as we go about 118 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,630 how it's kind of how the two 119 00:05:42,630 --> 00:05:44,430 have kind of started to merge together 120 00:05:44,430 --> 00:05:46,680 and some of my thoughts on that as well. 121 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,430 - Oh yeah, yeah, please elaborate about that. 122 00:05:50,430 --> 00:05:52,505 I'd be really kind of curious to see, 123 00:05:52,505 --> 00:05:55,170 and I think it's a wonderful testament, right, 124 00:05:55,170 --> 00:05:57,900 this I appreciate your honesty about 125 00:05:57,900 --> 00:06:00,410 this is in a state of evolution 126 00:06:00,410 --> 00:06:03,266 and trying to understand, 127 00:06:03,266 --> 00:06:06,510 I guess I kind of go back to when I was first learning 128 00:06:06,510 --> 00:06:08,340 how to drive a manual transmission 129 00:06:08,340 --> 00:06:12,074 and working that clutch and accelerator pedal. 130 00:06:12,074 --> 00:06:15,423 I bet it's something like that. 131 00:06:16,410 --> 00:06:17,970 - Yeah, certainly. 132 00:06:17,970 --> 00:06:22,970 There's times when you have more energy to devote to it 133 00:06:23,550 --> 00:06:24,600 and other times where you have 134 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:26,280 to kind of lay off a little bit. 135 00:06:26,280 --> 00:06:27,402 That's certainly true. 136 00:06:27,402 --> 00:06:31,080 And as I've started to share my art more, 137 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,600 some other opportunities and connections 138 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,082 have started to come about, 139 00:06:35,082 --> 00:06:37,740 I share online like on Twitter, 140 00:06:37,740 --> 00:06:39,906 and also in my local community 141 00:06:39,906 --> 00:06:43,770 and I've had some people reach out with me 142 00:06:43,770 --> 00:06:45,030 for some projects. 143 00:06:45,030 --> 00:06:48,750 And one recent thing is we there's a book coming out 144 00:06:48,750 --> 00:06:50,490 called "Artists Remaking Medicine" 145 00:06:50,490 --> 00:06:53,040 that I was asked to do some collages for 146 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:54,300 and write a little piece about. 147 00:06:54,300 --> 00:06:57,480 And there's other medical professionals 148 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,120 who are also artists in that as well. 149 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,570 And so that is something that's kind of come about for that. 150 00:07:03,570 --> 00:07:06,810 And I'm also connecting at my own institution 151 00:07:06,810 --> 00:07:10,020 with our medical school has a literary journal 152 00:07:10,020 --> 00:07:11,850 called "Lifelines." 153 00:07:11,850 --> 00:07:14,760 Many medical schools actually have things like this 154 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,910 that I think most of us don't even recognize exist. 155 00:07:17,910 --> 00:07:22,800 And there's also a arts program and humanities program 156 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:24,930 in my hospital that I work at. 157 00:07:24,930 --> 00:07:28,410 So I'm starting to connect with those kind of people 158 00:07:28,410 --> 00:07:33,120 and sources to think about how what I do as an artist 159 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,460 can be more possibly integrated 160 00:07:35,460 --> 00:07:38,362 with some of these other projects that are going on. 161 00:07:38,362 --> 00:07:40,445 And yes, it's developing. 162 00:07:42,916 --> 00:07:44,404 - Yeah, I hear a lot, 163 00:07:44,404 --> 00:07:49,404 lately it's people talking about there's a shift from, 164 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:54,090 it's not this or that, but how is it and right, 165 00:07:54,090 --> 00:07:56,292 how are we working these two things together? 166 00:07:56,292 --> 00:07:59,310 And so I guess to ask the question 167 00:07:59,310 --> 00:08:00,750 that probably many of the listers 168 00:08:00,750 --> 00:08:04,950 have bubbled around their mind is the time challenge, right? 169 00:08:04,950 --> 00:08:07,860 Like, you know, that's often as faculty 170 00:08:07,860 --> 00:08:10,800 whenever we're talking about doing something new 171 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,520 and certainly an art pursuit might be something new 172 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:15,690 or it's something on top. 173 00:08:15,690 --> 00:08:17,790 How do you navigate that challenge 174 00:08:17,790 --> 00:08:19,860 of not having enough time? 175 00:08:19,860 --> 00:08:22,290 - That's a very important question 176 00:08:22,290 --> 00:08:24,870 because I think we all kind have to figure out 177 00:08:24,870 --> 00:08:27,172 our ways to do that best. 178 00:08:27,172 --> 00:08:29,580 One I think for me 179 00:08:29,580 --> 00:08:32,010 it's been really kind of making it a priority. 180 00:08:32,010 --> 00:08:34,230 So I don't think of my art as a hobby, 181 00:08:34,230 --> 00:08:36,748 I think of it as like a part of something 182 00:08:36,748 --> 00:08:38,340 that's part of my everyday life. 183 00:08:38,340 --> 00:08:40,394 So it's something I just do 184 00:08:40,394 --> 00:08:43,110 rather than have an option of doing. 185 00:08:43,110 --> 00:08:44,670 It's just something I wanna be doing. 186 00:08:44,670 --> 00:08:46,468 So it has a higher priority, 187 00:08:46,468 --> 00:08:49,108 which definitely has mean that things have had to shift. 188 00:08:49,108 --> 00:08:54,108 So I have honestly shifted some of my focus 189 00:08:54,210 --> 00:08:57,720 in terms of saying no to a few more things at work 190 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,180 that are not as interesting to me 191 00:09:00,180 --> 00:09:01,660 or do not feel as meaningful, 192 00:09:01,660 --> 00:09:05,280 and passing those off to other people, for instance. 193 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:09,300 So it has been a little bit of a juggling 194 00:09:09,300 --> 00:09:11,716 to try to figure out how it is, 195 00:09:11,716 --> 00:09:14,400 what the pathway forward is going to look like, 196 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,100 but it's an important thing 197 00:09:17,100 --> 00:09:19,560 and I'm getting a lot of nourishment 198 00:09:19,560 --> 00:09:23,400 inside work and outside of work from it and exploring it. 199 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,360 So it's something I'm continuing to be curious about 200 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:29,310 how it will develop and evolve 201 00:09:29,310 --> 00:09:31,410 and kind of follow that through. 202 00:09:31,410 --> 00:09:35,280 But priority has helped, my children bing older has helped, 203 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,890 so they don't need me quite as much, 204 00:09:37,890 --> 00:09:41,467 I can disappear for a little bit in the evening sometimes 205 00:09:41,467 --> 00:09:44,684 and take some time for myself to do that too. 206 00:09:44,684 --> 00:09:46,170 - That resonates with me. 207 00:09:46,170 --> 00:09:49,170 I've been in the same boat with the children 208 00:09:49,170 --> 00:09:51,453 and navigating the teenage years now. 209 00:09:52,860 --> 00:09:53,693 - Right. 210 00:09:53,693 --> 00:09:57,450 It's a different challenge, but- 211 00:09:57,450 --> 00:09:58,283 - Exactly. 212 00:09:58,283 --> 00:10:02,460 So what advice do you have then for our listeners, 213 00:10:02,460 --> 00:10:04,080 we have a diverse listening group, 214 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,929 some clinicians, some laboratory medicine professionals, 215 00:10:07,929 --> 00:10:11,004 students we also have listening to this podcast, 216 00:10:11,004 --> 00:10:14,310 I know you have a lot of interest in education, 217 00:10:14,310 --> 00:10:15,588 new residents out there. 218 00:10:15,588 --> 00:10:17,310 What advice do you have 219 00:10:17,310 --> 00:10:22,310 for those who have interests in addition to medicine? 220 00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:24,930 - Well, I hope we all have those interests 221 00:10:24,930 --> 00:10:26,370 in addition to medicine. 222 00:10:26,370 --> 00:10:29,520 We just might not necessarily talk about them. 223 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:33,300 And I think our work as meaningful 224 00:10:33,300 --> 00:10:35,575 and as important as it might feel, 225 00:10:35,575 --> 00:10:39,270 in healthcare it really is just a job. 226 00:10:39,270 --> 00:10:42,180 And sometimes it's helpful to have that perspective 227 00:10:42,180 --> 00:10:44,550 that that's not everything that we are 228 00:10:44,550 --> 00:10:46,290 and everything that we do. 229 00:10:46,290 --> 00:10:49,050 And that also allows us to make some space 230 00:10:49,050 --> 00:10:51,131 for other things in our lives, I think. 231 00:10:51,131 --> 00:10:56,131 And so, you know, I recommend people thinking about that, 232 00:10:57,330 --> 00:10:59,555 their lives as kind of a bigger picture. 233 00:10:59,555 --> 00:11:03,390 I just am not a healthcare worker, I am a person, 234 00:11:03,390 --> 00:11:05,907 I'm whatever, I like to do other things. 235 00:11:05,907 --> 00:11:09,699 And that you can explore those other options. 236 00:11:09,699 --> 00:11:12,090 I do have the opportunity 237 00:11:12,090 --> 00:11:15,810 to teach early on in our med students first year 238 00:11:15,810 --> 00:11:20,810 and they're just about six weeks into their med school. 239 00:11:20,850 --> 00:11:21,843 It's like in September. 240 00:11:21,843 --> 00:11:25,290 And I do take the time after one of my lectures 241 00:11:25,290 --> 00:11:27,027 to show them some of my collages 242 00:11:27,027 --> 00:11:32,027 and remind them about maintaining these parts of ourselves 243 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,860 that help give us balance, 244 00:11:34,860 --> 00:11:36,363 the connections to our families, 245 00:11:36,363 --> 00:11:39,747 asking for help, supporting each other. 246 00:11:39,747 --> 00:11:44,747 And the creativity can be anything that feels good to you. 247 00:11:45,210 --> 00:11:46,290 It doesn't have to be art, 248 00:11:46,290 --> 00:11:47,820 it could be writing, it could be music, 249 00:11:47,820 --> 00:11:51,810 it can be riding your bicycle, it can be gardening, cooking. 250 00:11:51,810 --> 00:11:53,460 You know, there's so many different ways 251 00:11:53,460 --> 00:11:56,370 to kind of think about what this could be. 252 00:11:56,370 --> 00:12:00,027 But I think creativity is incredibly helpful for us 253 00:12:00,027 --> 00:12:01,830 as healthcare workers. 254 00:12:01,830 --> 00:12:04,131 I think it brings curiosity, 255 00:12:04,131 --> 00:12:06,600 it brings flexibility of thought 256 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,573 and so much more into our work. 257 00:12:11,931 --> 00:12:14,700 - You know, as I'm listening to you, 258 00:12:14,700 --> 00:12:17,100 two things to highlight out for our listeners, right, 259 00:12:17,100 --> 00:12:21,923 is I hear this theme of like new opportunities, right? 260 00:12:26,190 --> 00:12:28,800 It's not just like you're a collage artist 261 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,560 and you're a physician, but you're contributing, 262 00:12:31,560 --> 00:12:33,475 you were saying about this collection coming out 263 00:12:33,475 --> 00:12:36,630 about kind of that blending of the two. 264 00:12:36,630 --> 00:12:39,451 And so it's kind of a nice example 265 00:12:39,451 --> 00:12:42,667 how it didn't really start out with an intention 266 00:12:42,667 --> 00:12:44,970 for kind of that cross. 267 00:12:44,970 --> 00:12:48,900 But just by putting yourself out there, 268 00:12:48,900 --> 00:12:51,275 by sharing your content, 269 00:12:51,275 --> 00:12:56,275 you've found others and found new opportunities, 270 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,480 which is really, I think quite stimulating. 271 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:05,340 And then I hear a kindness as well in that, right, 272 00:13:05,340 --> 00:13:09,030 you're talking about saying no to other opportunities 273 00:13:09,030 --> 00:13:11,380 and I just wanna highlight for our listeners, 274 00:13:11,380 --> 00:13:15,180 for somebody like you in these leadership roles, 275 00:13:15,180 --> 00:13:18,600 probably I'm guessing saying no to some opportunities 276 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,390 means that you're giving more junior faculty 277 00:13:21,390 --> 00:13:23,430 some opportunities- 278 00:13:23,430 --> 00:13:24,763 - Hopefully yes. 279 00:13:24,763 --> 00:13:27,451 - Which can help their careers as well. 280 00:13:27,451 --> 00:13:29,433 - Yeah, definitely. 281 00:13:29,433 --> 00:13:32,940 It's an opportunity to do some of that mentoring as well 282 00:13:32,940 --> 00:13:37,620 that it's so important to us as professionals 283 00:13:37,620 --> 00:13:40,410 and also in our career and to support others 284 00:13:40,410 --> 00:13:43,620 who are coming behind us in their careers, yeah. 285 00:13:43,620 --> 00:13:45,060 - Now I always, 286 00:13:45,060 --> 00:13:47,100 I usually kind of close my questions 287 00:13:47,100 --> 00:13:49,560 with where do you think this is going? 288 00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:52,830 And I totally appreciate the fact 289 00:13:52,830 --> 00:13:57,390 that this is an evolving aspect of your life. 290 00:13:57,390 --> 00:13:59,778 But what are your thoughts on 291 00:13:59,778 --> 00:14:02,640 where does your art practice go 292 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,433 in the coming months to years? 293 00:14:06,450 --> 00:14:10,410 - I think it's going to probably continue to evolve 294 00:14:10,410 --> 00:14:15,000 along this track of a lot of it being for myself 295 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:16,950 and for my own self-expression, 296 00:14:16,950 --> 00:14:20,893 and just that internal need that I have to create. 297 00:14:20,893 --> 00:14:24,510 And then kind of following my curiosity 298 00:14:24,510 --> 00:14:26,610 through what are these other threads 299 00:14:26,610 --> 00:14:27,930 that are starting to show up 300 00:14:27,930 --> 00:14:29,760 like you mentioned the other connections, 301 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:31,620 other opportunities that are starting 302 00:14:31,620 --> 00:14:36,620 to kind of catch my attention and also connect to me. 303 00:14:37,607 --> 00:14:42,480 And I would say in other areas of medicine, 304 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,780 there is a little bit more talk about art and humanities. 305 00:14:45,780 --> 00:14:48,075 I think like narrative medicine, for instance, 306 00:14:48,075 --> 00:14:52,500 is becoming more discussed and more developed 307 00:14:52,500 --> 00:14:56,880 and more taught for other subspecialties in medicine. 308 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:58,770 And you know, in pathology, 309 00:14:58,770 --> 00:15:02,070 we don't have a lot of discussion about that so far. 310 00:15:02,070 --> 00:15:03,870 There are a few other pathologists 311 00:15:03,870 --> 00:15:06,270 who are very creative and are starting, 312 00:15:06,270 --> 00:15:08,737 and are sharing their art and their work. 313 00:15:08,737 --> 00:15:11,120 But I think as a field of pathology, 314 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:15,572 I'm thinking about how can we bring more of this 315 00:15:15,572 --> 00:15:17,550 into our field too, 316 00:15:17,550 --> 00:15:20,362 either for our residents, ourselves, 317 00:15:20,362 --> 00:15:23,072 and for that interaction with patients 318 00:15:23,072 --> 00:15:25,410 that many of us enjoy having 319 00:15:25,410 --> 00:15:27,530 and what opportunities lay there. 320 00:15:27,530 --> 00:15:30,550 And I wanna say too 321 00:15:32,996 --> 00:15:35,730 that my experience of sharing my art 322 00:15:35,730 --> 00:15:38,313 was not necessarily an easy one to start with. 323 00:15:39,415 --> 00:15:42,940 One of the reasons why I started to share 324 00:15:44,460 --> 00:15:45,660 was that I had a few people 325 00:15:45,660 --> 00:15:47,487 that were very supportive of me early on. 326 00:15:47,487 --> 00:15:49,380 And that kind of gave me the courage 327 00:15:49,380 --> 00:15:52,036 to start to be vulnerable and put myself out there 328 00:15:52,036 --> 00:15:54,180 and then it gets more comfortable. 329 00:15:54,180 --> 00:15:57,540 And one of the reasons I share is to show people 330 00:15:57,540 --> 00:15:58,373 that it's okay 331 00:15:58,373 --> 00:16:01,252 to put these other aspects of yourself out there 332 00:16:01,252 --> 00:16:04,080 and that people will be welcoming of it 333 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,320 and actually get excited to see 334 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:11,320 that you are more than just a physician or a pathologist. 335 00:16:11,748 --> 00:16:14,700 And that's been really important 336 00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:17,252 to kind of be an example of how to do that 337 00:16:17,252 --> 00:16:19,860 because a couple of people 338 00:16:19,860 --> 00:16:23,910 were able to provide that initial kind of support for me. 339 00:16:23,910 --> 00:16:26,823 And then hopefully I can pass that on. 340 00:16:28,020 --> 00:16:32,430 And also, I never had someone earlier in my career 341 00:16:32,430 --> 00:16:34,170 to kind of be an example of that, 342 00:16:34,170 --> 00:16:36,938 that you could also be a writer, an artist, 343 00:16:36,938 --> 00:16:38,940 so on and so forth. 344 00:16:38,940 --> 00:16:39,810 And that should, 345 00:16:39,810 --> 00:16:41,460 that should also be an important part 346 00:16:41,460 --> 00:16:46,205 of what we talk about in our lives as healthcare workers. 347 00:16:46,205 --> 00:16:47,536 - Yeah, that's brilliant. 348 00:16:47,536 --> 00:16:48,930 That really resonates with me too. 349 00:16:48,930 --> 00:16:53,370 That's how I think about my Instagram profile 350 00:16:53,370 --> 00:16:56,460 is I kind of think of right now Twitter 351 00:16:56,460 --> 00:16:59,700 and I guess maybe coming on Threads now 352 00:16:59,700 --> 00:17:03,380 is a little bit more that straight healthcare professional. 353 00:17:03,380 --> 00:17:06,600 But a lot of times for people 354 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:08,957 that are interested in kind of the full person, 355 00:17:08,957 --> 00:17:13,350 Dr. Kreuter is my Instagram account 356 00:17:13,350 --> 00:17:16,830 where I'm showing what I'm doing as a father, 357 00:17:16,830 --> 00:17:20,163 as an artist, as a physician. 358 00:17:21,473 --> 00:17:22,500 - That's great. 359 00:17:22,500 --> 00:17:25,050 - I know you wanna flip the script on me. 360 00:17:25,050 --> 00:17:25,950 - I do, I do. 361 00:17:25,950 --> 00:17:29,190 I do wanna ask you a question that you kinda just led into 362 00:17:29,190 --> 00:17:32,400 is that, I've noticed that you've posted some 363 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,422 about graphic medicine and I'm very curious 364 00:17:36,422 --> 00:17:39,420 to hear a little bit more about that from you 365 00:17:39,420 --> 00:17:42,360 and also what your own interests in art are 366 00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:43,980 'cause it sounds like you have some 367 00:17:43,980 --> 00:17:46,020 that I'm not necessarily aware of. 368 00:17:46,020 --> 00:17:47,430 - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. 369 00:17:47,430 --> 00:17:52,430 So the graphic medicine started out back several years. 370 00:17:55,170 --> 00:17:58,537 I don't know if that was like 2015-16, somewhere in there. 371 00:17:58,537 --> 00:18:03,537 I went to one of those TEDx conferences 372 00:18:04,042 --> 00:18:05,850 and they were kind of talking 373 00:18:05,850 --> 00:18:08,850 about kind of like the 30-day challenge 374 00:18:08,850 --> 00:18:10,830 of like doing something for 30 days. 375 00:18:10,830 --> 00:18:13,800 And I was there with another medical educator 376 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,660 that I work with in transfusion 377 00:18:15,660 --> 00:18:18,930 and we were kind of thinking about comics 378 00:18:18,930 --> 00:18:22,500 and wouldn't it be fun to do like comics 379 00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:25,312 because some of those basic principles 380 00:18:25,312 --> 00:18:27,090 of transfusion medicine. 381 00:18:27,090 --> 00:18:29,910 Now certainly, you know, this is my life's work, 382 00:18:29,910 --> 00:18:32,480 so to say that I can cover it, 383 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,430 comic strip is a little bit of an existential crisis, 384 00:18:35,430 --> 00:18:37,200 but there's certainly like bite-sized chunks 385 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,000 that fit well, right? - Yeah, yeah. 386 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,670 - And so we started doing that. 387 00:18:41,670 --> 00:18:45,300 We called it Transfusion Tunes on Twitter. 388 00:18:45,300 --> 00:18:50,300 We would post and it came at a time 389 00:18:51,060 --> 00:18:54,540 when I had already started using social media 390 00:18:54,540 --> 00:18:57,150 to like talk about transfusion medicine, 391 00:18:57,150 --> 00:18:59,160 clinically important issues. 392 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:00,480 But then I noticed 393 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:02,940 when we put out like these Transfusion Tunes, 394 00:19:02,940 --> 00:19:07,320 like there was a lot more pickup, right? 395 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,783 So almost like I would talk about something, 396 00:19:11,250 --> 00:19:16,140 without a sketch or a comic and like, 397 00:19:16,140 --> 00:19:20,820 that would only resonate with the fellow converted, right? 398 00:19:20,820 --> 00:19:23,100 - The die hard? - Exactly. 399 00:19:23,100 --> 00:19:25,050 But, you know, I threw out a Transfusion Tune, 400 00:19:25,050 --> 00:19:28,260 and all of a sudden, like my colleagues and friends 401 00:19:28,260 --> 00:19:31,650 in critical care medicine and emergency medicine, 402 00:19:31,650 --> 00:19:35,250 like other people would pick up the topic, 403 00:19:35,250 --> 00:19:37,770 would share it, would comment about it, 404 00:19:37,770 --> 00:19:39,210 sparked more conversation. 405 00:19:39,210 --> 00:19:41,970 It was like, it was one of these things where I felt 406 00:19:41,970 --> 00:19:44,850 like I'd really stumbled into like, oh, 407 00:19:44,850 --> 00:19:49,850 so this is how I can kind of have that conversation, 408 00:19:50,100 --> 00:19:51,630 how I can bridge the gap. 409 00:19:51,630 --> 00:19:56,554 And so that's where I've kind of have seen graphic medicine 410 00:19:56,554 --> 00:19:58,860 really play for me. 411 00:19:58,860 --> 00:20:01,710 But it's a really diverse feel 412 00:20:01,710 --> 00:20:02,940 that we'll put it in the show notes, 413 00:20:02,940 --> 00:20:07,170 but there's a website of graphicmedicine.org 414 00:20:07,170 --> 00:20:09,120 and they do an annual conference 415 00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:13,920 and it's got attendees or healthcare professionals. 416 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,010 There's artists, there's also patients that go 417 00:20:17,010 --> 00:20:18,630 because there's different facets. 418 00:20:18,630 --> 00:20:21,420 There's people like me that are talking 419 00:20:21,420 --> 00:20:23,970 about how do we work amongst each other 420 00:20:23,970 --> 00:20:25,560 as healthcare professionals 421 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,340 to understand interprofessional collaboration. 422 00:20:29,340 --> 00:20:31,170 There are some people that are interested 423 00:20:31,170 --> 00:20:34,740 in how do we communicate with patients better, right? 424 00:20:34,740 --> 00:20:37,650 So one of the folks have kind of worked 425 00:20:37,650 --> 00:20:42,330 to create kind of a script and diagram 426 00:20:42,330 --> 00:20:45,728 for talking with families about end of life issues. 427 00:20:45,728 --> 00:20:49,680 There's also work with people looking at like, hey, 428 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:51,870 if we read the graphic novel 429 00:20:51,870 --> 00:20:55,680 about a patient who has Parkinson's disease, 430 00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:00,390 does that help impact medical students empathy 431 00:21:00,390 --> 00:21:02,760 for patients with this disease? 432 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,340 As well as is this something that can be given 433 00:21:05,340 --> 00:21:07,320 to patients who are newly diagnosed? 434 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,320 So it's a diverse field 435 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,190 that might appeal to a number of our listeners. 436 00:21:14,190 --> 00:21:17,674 - Yeah, no, it's fantastic and it's really exciting. 437 00:21:17,674 --> 00:21:21,540 I've seen a little bit of how that can work too. 438 00:21:21,540 --> 00:21:25,710 I am part of a woman's physician artist group as well 439 00:21:25,710 --> 00:21:27,811 that kind of came about sharing my art. 440 00:21:27,811 --> 00:21:30,090 But one of the artists in that 441 00:21:30,090 --> 00:21:33,270 is a surgeon who works with the children 442 00:21:33,270 --> 00:21:34,950 and has written some children's books 443 00:21:34,950 --> 00:21:37,560 about different surgical procedures 444 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:38,700 that children might have. 445 00:21:38,700 --> 00:21:43,230 And they're illustrated comic-like books 446 00:21:43,230 --> 00:21:47,580 and they provide a lot of explanation 447 00:21:47,580 --> 00:21:50,670 about what's gonna happen and has really been, 448 00:21:50,670 --> 00:21:55,440 she thinks has really alleviated a lot of that anticipation 449 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:56,850 about what's gonna happen with surgery. 450 00:21:56,850 --> 00:22:00,360 So it's a great tool to communicate with patients 451 00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:03,990 and part of consent and education as well. 452 00:22:03,990 --> 00:22:05,978 I think that that's awesome. 453 00:22:05,978 --> 00:22:06,840 That's great. 454 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:08,040 It'll be fun to see where it goes. 455 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,050 And I'm thinking about where can it work 456 00:22:10,050 --> 00:22:12,480 in anatomic pathology a little bit better. 457 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,660 'Cause we're such a visual field of pathology 458 00:22:15,660 --> 00:22:18,330 that there's so much there that could happen. 459 00:22:18,330 --> 00:22:22,020 So maybe one of your listeners will take that on. 460 00:22:22,020 --> 00:22:23,370 - We've been routing with Dr. Tafe 461 00:22:23,370 --> 00:22:26,195 talking about practicing art and medicine. 462 00:22:26,195 --> 00:22:27,750 - Thank you for having me. 463 00:22:27,750 --> 00:22:29,370 It's been a delight. 464 00:22:29,370 --> 00:22:30,660 - And thank you, listeners, 465 00:22:30,660 --> 00:22:33,382 for taking the time to join us. 466 00:22:33,382 --> 00:22:36,210 Today we invite you to share your thoughts and suggestions 467 00:22:36,210 --> 00:22:40,350 via email to mcleducation@mayo.edu. 468 00:22:40,350 --> 00:22:41,790 If you've enjoyed this podcast, 469 00:22:41,790 --> 00:22:44,250 please subscribe and until our next rounds together, 470 00:22:44,250 --> 00:22:46,860 we encourage you to continue to connect lab medicine 471 00:22:46,860 --> 00:22:50,907 and the clinical practice through educational conversations. 472 00:22:50,907 --> 00:22:53,407 (light music)