Shannon Putman: Hey, hello everybody.
Welcome back to another outstanding episode of Putin's podcast.
Pops, I could not be more excited for you to meet today's guest.
He is an esteemed educator of over 35 years.
Somebody who thought he was going to be my arch nemesis, and then he met me.
And like everybody else, obviously loves everything that I do in education.
So, welcome Dave Dolan.
How are you today?
Dave Dolan: Well, I am great Shannon, and yes, big heart out to you and real pleasure to be
Shannon Putman: Well, thank you so much for joining us on the pop.
I wanted to give that as a little teaser, but really I wanted you to be able to kind of introduce yourself and give us a little bit of insight into your background and what brought you into the pop tonight.
Dave Dolan: Okay.
Well, I'll start with the, I'm a Canadian who's living in Japan.
I've been here for many years.
I've been an educator for about 30 or 35 years.
So I have a little bit of knowledge on the, on that side of things.
Got into ed tech in 2008, and I'll just explain this part because I think it, it helps to kind of inform how things ended up here.
Right.
So at that time it was about digital books and textbooks for education.
And it wasn't just an ebook, but audio, video testing, tracking of scores online, offline.
You know, cross cross platform and device agnostic pretty much.
And then in in 2016, got a chance to maybe do the same thing in vr.
So being the skeptical teacher, like most of us you know, you looked at it and thought, well, okay, this is kind of interesting.
It looks like it has, you know, it, it looks like there might be something there, but I'm not too sure.
I didn't jump too heartily into it because I'm not a gamer, I'm not a device guy.
But I gave it a try because I thought, well, why not?
And you know, since that time I've seen the change it can make.
And at that time it was about making the content for devices and coming from the education side and because of the experience with digital books.
Okay.
Audio, video testing, tracking online, offline, you know, device agnostic.
Okay.
This all seemed to fit nicely into the whole package.
Now, do this with vr and then having been in many classrooms in many countries all around the world, from Cape Town South Africa, to Sri Lanka, to Hong Kong, to China, to Germany, to you, you know, you name it.
And I've been there and in classes I've seen the effect, and it's just it turns you into a very strong advocate for this kind of learning.
Shannon Putman: That is quite the extensive classroom experience, which I appreciate.
And thank you for your work in that area.
'cause those of us that have been in the classroom know what a tough gig that can be at times.
But are there any, you know, before we dive right into vr, are there any similarities that, like you see that like, even though it could be Sri Lanka, it could be, you know, Japan, there's still just some things that are just the same in classrooms.
Dave Dolan: Well see.
See that's the interesting question and interesting the way that you came into it, because for me it's all the same and it really doesn't matter.
And people talk well, you know, well, it's different.
My country's different when I, you know, when I talk to resellers around the world, well, you don't understand, Dave.
My country's different.
You know, like in Canada we've got French and English, and you know, in India we're price sensitive.
And you know, over here we, you know, we worry about budgets and over here we, you know, we don't, we have no internet connectivity.
Right.
And the thing is that the learning and the setup is so very much the same anywhere you go.
Right?
I can be standing in a classroom in Sri Lanka, or I was in, in a girl school in.
Cape Town and you walk into the class and say, Hey girls, and hey, you know, and they're all excited to see you, and you just, you start talking and the conversations are all the same.
The teachers, you know, at that time now things have advanced from, you know, from then, but back in 20 17, 18, 19, you know, you had teachers, you know, is this gonna replace me?
You know, and I would say, yes.
Okay.
If you're not a good teacher, okay, it'll never replace me.
Okay.
But it can enhance everything that I do.
But it can standardize the, you know, the delivery of content and things like that.
It can take students into a flower to understand photosynthesis rather than just watch a video or things like that.
So a lot of the things that Shannon, I know you know well, and probably most of the people listening know very well.
But those are things that.
I can't do by myself, and so I rely on the VR to be able to do that, but it's not gonna replace me as a teacher.
I'm way too valuable.
Shannon Putman: Well, that's absolutely true, and that is a line I probably will be stealing now.
I'll give you credit though, but I like that.
That's, it's absolutely right though.
It's not, it is not the instructional method, it's not the personality.
It's that I always say it's a tool in your toolkit.
It just happens to be the best one in my opinion.
You know.
So if we wanna just jump right into the, to the meat and potatoes I guess they say of it.
So I've always joked around and you heard this joke at the conference in Japan, that I always say that A 3D and any new users might not know, but our tried and true users know 3D for three degrees of freedom versus six DOF is like using a rotary phone.
I specifically meant a certain company that I don't like to mention 'cause I'm not good enough to be able to call people out yet, but that's what brought us together.
So why did you please give me your insights and thoughts on 3D versus six off?
Dave Dolan: Okay.
So first of all, you didn't name the con the company.
I did at the conference, but I won't now.
Okay.
Because I'll be nice.
Okay.
But we can all use our imaginations.
All right.
So actually I'd kind of like to turn that question around a little bit.
Okay.
'cause I'd like to talk about where six DF is better.
Okay.
Because it, it's a short conversation.
I'm sorry.
Okay.
You know, so the main part of it will be about three df.
Okay.
But let's give six df It's due where it's deserved.
Okay.
So there is incrementally deeper immersion that you get.
Okay.
And the, you know, the tracking of hand gestures can be beneficial to learning in some respects.
Okay.
So I definitely understand that and I know that when you get into to things with precise movements or specialized training, let's say, into jobs such as to be a surgeon or jewelry making, welding pilot, dentist, orthotist.
Okay.
You know, making, you know, the prosthetic arms or things, something like that.
Or maybe even artist or craftsman, that there can be value with six off.
And I do understand that.
Okay.
But we have to look at the numbers very deeply because when you look at entry rate, okay.
No, I'm just gonna make some assumptions.
Okay.
Let's say, let's assume that a high school has 500 students.
Okay?
We'll just use that as a base.
Alright.
When you look at entry rate into those professions, you're talking about one or two students.
Out of that 500 that are gonna get into surgeon, it's actually you'd need two high schools, and one student from those two high schools will become a surgeon.
Okay?
So it, it actually is, you know, 0.5 students.
Okay.
So half a student at the high school will become a surgeon.
Alright?
I guess they could work on themselves.
Okay?
One or two would become a pilot.
The big one would be welding, which would be five or 10 of those students may become a welder, right?
So what we're looking at is that anywhere from two to 5% of the students will benefit from that extra immersion, okay?
Which means that you're gonna have to have something for the other 95 to 98% of students.
Okay?
And I'll get into why that's.
You know, that's meaningful.
Okay.
Lemme just make one, one other point about, let's say medical schools.
So even in a, from a medical school, the graduates that end up in surgical residency are anywhere from four to 10%, right?
So even in a medical school you would find more value with three DF in learning, anatomy, pathology, physiology, epidemiology, ethics.
There, there are so many other places that you can benefit from three DF.
Okay, now let's start with a couple more assumptions.
Right.
This is where I start from.
Okay.
Let's say I've got five main things that I want to have into a class, so, or into a school.
So the first is I want the least tech savvy teacher to be able to use it and not have to call it.
Yeah.
So let's start there.
It must be able to work offline.
So you've got no buffering, no streaming, no kind of router, roulette that you've gotta play.
It has to be safe both physically and mentally, right?
It needs to make economic sense not just at purchase, but over five years.
Okay.
And I think five years is a good amount of time, and we must fiercely protect student privacy.
Okay.
So, so this is, that's just my, that's my point of departure.
That's where I start from.
Okay.
And this is in wishful thinking.
This is what can be applied right now today.
All right.
You know, the way that, now I know that you're a sports woman.
Okay?
I know you're a pickle baller, and you've got a a background in sports, right?
Was it soccer?
Shannon Putman: Soccer and softball.
Dave Dolan: Yeah.
Yes.
Okay.
So the way that I see it is that, you know, sixth off is like the the superstar of the team.
Okay?
But three off is really the utility player and three, and it's versatile.
It's dependable, it's essential, okay?
It's not about the flash.
It's about getting the job done.
And while, you know, six df, the superstar demand space, constant support, full, you know, full entourage of it staff, right?
The three doff player, you know, delivers immersive interactive learning without drama.
Okay.
There's no internet stress, no privacy risks, no security headaches, just solid scalable performance.
Okay?
And any winning team, you know, it's a u utility players that get, get it done right?
There are those players are affordable, they're low maintenance workhorses, and that keeps everything moving while the star, you know, sits on the bench with a sore ego and a pulled hammy.
Okay?
So that's that's where the problem is.
Okay?
So VR is such a powerful tool, right?
And it's not about the wow, right?
And actually for me it isn't just about what it brings to a classroom, but it's more important about what it removes, okay?
VR in educ now I, again, I'm talking about VR and education.
If you're talking about gaming entertainment or knock yourself out with six off, okay?
If you want to.
You wanna dodge zombies or you wanna become an astronaut or whatever, I, okay, I don't, you know, just go ahead and knock yourself out.
But but when you talk about education, the things you wanna remove and the things that VR can remove, excuse me.
You remove distraction from learning, okay?
Which promotes deeper focus concentration, okay?
You remove judgment, anxiety, the observer effect and self-consciousness.
Okay?
You can remove chaos, okay?
There's, okay, in VR, when I'm talking about 3D, because there's no physical movement needed except rotation in a swivel chair, excuse me, or standing.
Okay?
And you're also removing ongoing costs and runaway expenses.
Okay?
When done correctly, right now, here's where in my mind, sixth off breaks this covenant.
I. Okay.
Because the problem is that it actually adds distraction into learning.
Okay?
The front facing camera switches on when somebody walks by.
There's confusing buttons over two controllers.
The, if the wifi lags or there's interruptions, it just stops learning, okay?
It adds judgment, a anxiety, and the observer effect and self-consciousness, because of tracking, you're tracking student movement you're, and so the student knows that it's being tracked with six off.
You're not being tracked with three ddo.
So that become, that becomes more anxiety that you add into the classroom.
You add chaos, right?
Because you're adding physical movement, which means there's a real estate issue for one thing and that the physical movement creates the possibility of injury.
It creates a possibility of property damage, right?
And, I mean, you check any YouTube video, right?
With somebody jumping on a TV or falling over, or breaking a ceiling fan being laughed at by friends and family.
It has only one thing in common that's a six off headset, right?
You never see a video like that with three DI mean, I don't know why this doesn't register with people, right?
So, so it seems kind of counterintuitive that, you know, sixth off, which is the darling of the, you know, the VR and education world is introducing all of these things when all of those things should be taken outta the classroom.
Okay?
So even though Treat off is very much considered the cheaper, lesser device, you know, and some would argue that it shouldn't even be considered in the same class, okay?
For gaming entertainment, I get the point.
Okay?
But education is a completely different animal.
Shannon Putman: Incredibly profound, and you had a lot of incredibly valid points there.
And some things that even, and we've had multiple conversations, but that I hadn't even thought about.
As well with the educators, you know, we know it's a whole new thing, new piece of tech they have to learn.
Yes.
But even with the students too, with sick stuff, there's a lot more options and things like skills that they have to learn, whether it's picking up the grip button, all of those kind of things, that definitely is a learning curve.
And with the distractions, like you said if people don't think about that, when they create their experience, they like to throw in other things into the environment, you know, for aesthetics or something.
And it's really just more of a distraction.
So I think even in, in from the development side, having all of those things available to you doesn't mean you need to use 'em.
Dave Dolan: Yeah, exactly.
Shannon Putman: And so.
Dave Dolan: And what I'll just throw in one thing about let's talk about CDs.
Okay?
Shannon Putman: As in like my bank account or as in like pre iPod.
Dave Dolan: in music.
As in music.
When CDs came out.
Okay.
I'm a couple years older than you are.
Shannon Putman: I
Dave Dolan: Many decades older.
Okay.
But when CDs were invented and were coming out, they were invented for Quadraphonic sound.
Okay.
And so that's how it was made.
Okay.
But the CD ended up being too big.
So what they did was that to make it practical, to make it sensible, they went down to Stereophonic sound Okay.
To cut out the size, and they came down to that.
And now you have a CD and MP threes that, that use stereo sound.
Right?
I don't think any of us are that much the worse off because it didn't do the full fidelity Quadr sound.
And we came to to live with with maybe the lesser version, which is the cd, right?
Because it, size-wise, expense-wise, everything, it came down to a spot that made more sense, was practical, was feasible, and was usable.
Shannon Putman: That's a, that's completely legitimate right there.
And as somebody who used to make, you know, road trip CD mixes back with lime wire, like that was some fond memories and it was amazing.
So when we're looking at that, like, you know, when you say, you know, some people say it's lesser or whatever, what is it that with three dos?
So let's say I don't, you know, I'm kind of new and I don't really know everything, so what is it with three DOF that I'm not going to be able to do that's, you know, like, 'cause like when we say oh six do versus three dof, you know, and talking about turn or manipulating small movements or anything.
What is the big, major thing that makes the difference?
Dave Dolan: Okay.
And the major thing is about the tracking.
Okay?
And that's almost everything.
So the tracking allows you to do things like a hand gesture, right?
And so if I'm gonna open a jar and I, you know, I make that twisting motion with my hands.
The tracking allows that to happen.
Now, my argument there is that.
Do I really need to have that twisting motion for opening the jar, or can I use a controller to click the lid?
It'll animate and come off and just, it'll simulate exactly what I wanna do.
So it might be thought of as, well, not as good, but I gotta remember that I've got a lot of things that I have to sacrifice just to have that right.
And one of them is student privacy, right?
Another one is huge cost.
There's a huge difference in cost, and I don't mean about the price of the headsets.
We'll get into that a little bit later because will pique your interest right Now that, you know, I could make an argument that even if, let's say a three doff headset was a thousand dollars and a six DO headset was free, I would give you a compelling argument that you're gonna save a whole lot of money by going tradeoff.
if it's made to be interactive and you're still dissecting something, you're pulling it apart, you're putting together, you know, the heart valves or whatever, you can do all of these things and three off, because I've been doing that since 20 16, 20 17.
'cause there used to be in, in the creation of that kind of content, right?
So that, so all of those things are not a problem, but if you want to twist that cap off, if you want to maybe throw a football, okay.
You know, and that motion that you can push your arm in that you can do in sixth off, you know, and you know, a lot of people do beat saber kind of things with sixth off, right?
And then they'll do have then they'll have verbs and nouns and say, now we're teach, we're learning English, but.
Not really.
Okay.
So it, those kinds of things you can do with six stop that you cannot do with 3D, but the majority of things that you wanna do, go into a place, discover, move around in the scene all of that can be done stationary.
Now I would suggest either swivel chair or standing and just rotating in place, right?
So you don't need the kind of the big real estate issues that Six ddo has.
But yeah, you still do a lot more with with three ddo.
Most of what you want to do, you can do.
So I will say that three ddo has a bad wrap, right?
And I will say that in the majority of cases the bad rap toward three DPH has been very much deserved and very well earned.
Okay?
And so you're not wrong in thinking that.
And every listener out there who says, well, yeah, but, right, I'm with them because.
In some cases it was due to bad actors in the field, but in most cases just a lack of understanding.
And then it became a choice just to follow along with others.
And the division became, well, you know, the three off is more just like a viewer.
I don't know if you're old enough to remember the View Masters where you put in a little card.
Yeah.
Or a kaleidoscope.
Right.
You know, and it just became, remember at the very beginning you know, you had those plastic little like, Google Cardboard kind of thing, and you put your phone in and people just said, oh, this is vr.
And then the six stock folks that they said, come on, that's not really vr, you're just looking at some pictures.
Right.
And the problem was that some companies took that to heart that, you know, just, it could be very simple and have a headset, which is just a plastic box with really no internal.
Specs to it, right.
And they just said, okay, here, take a look at some pictures.
Here's the Statue of Liberty and here's an apple.
Right?
And so that could be good enough, you know, you can have a reasonable argument that's good enough for a five or 6-year-old, right?
That they don't need, you know, more compelling things.
Right?
You can have a teacher just say, okay, look left, look right.
Hey, isn't this cool?
That's fine.
But to me, that's not really what I want to do.
And I do think that when you get to eight, nine years old and up, you want something more complex that, that can attend to a higher order of thinking, right?
And this is where we wanna lead vr.
And I'm sure you're right with me on that, right?
Shannon Putman: Absolutely.
Dave Dolan: But the people that brought that out, you know, just expanded that to a classroom.
And that's where the kind of 3D, let's say, system exists is kind of a classroom model.
And I've never understood this because, you know, what's important, what's really interesting is that the VR is a compelling, very uniquely personal experience.
And how do you transform that into a class-wide experience?
Right.
And I just, I don't get the rationale.
And when you turn it into a class experience, then you're changing everything now.
You have to have it, you have to have lots of headsets that's gonna, that's gonna increase your price, right?
You're gonna have to have wifi because they have to communicate between each other.
You're gonna have to, you know, the teachers, every teacher I've ever talked to said, I gotta see in the headset, gimme something that goes inside the headset.
Okay.
And every single teacher, I've always sat down and said, okay, that's a good idea.
So when you send tea, when you send students to the library to read a book, you of course run behind every student over their shoulders.
What page are you on?
Page 27.
Yes.
Okay.
You're reading that.
Okay good.
And every single teacher laughs and says, I would never ever do that.
Why do you need to do that with vr?
There is no compelling reason for that.
I understand that you need to be connected to the learning, because I do too.
Right.
But what I need to know is whether there's been student success, and if they haven't understood certain terms or certain, you know, concepts, that's where I wanna know.
And that's through the assessment.
And so any good learning.
Module, we'll have assessment in there as well.
And that way it lets me know that, you know, let's say somebody like Jim got a hundred percent fantastic and somebody like Shannon got 42%, I wanna know where she got 42%.
Okay.
And why that informs me, that makes me more efficient and a better teacher.
Because I can say, Shannon, we studied this before we did photosynthesis, stoma, is this?
Okay.
Yeah.
I remember reading that.
Okay.
And that way in two minutes, I, now I know what the issue was.
I can it's early identification of that, you know, that issue.
And now I can, I tend to that.
Okay, so, so I understand the bad rap.
You know, and it was warranted.
I get it.
Okay.
I've got no issue with that, but it's 2025.
Okay?
It's time that we take you know, we maybe reassess the misadventures from the past, okay?
And we see things as they truly are, right?
So let's look at the reality and let's take a fresh look at 3D from the lens of a high quality feature rich four 4K VR headset with proper specs.
And now we, we judge things anew.
That's all I want to do.
Shannon Putman: I love that.
And I think at the very end that's such an incredibly important thing because I've heard a lot of people in the industry tell me too, like, oh, well, you know, the graphics don't really matter 'cause the kids are so, you know, enthralled with it and stuff.
You can have less graphics, blah, blah, blah.
I'm like, eh, not really.
These are kids that grew up with PlayStation three and four and they're used to their call of duties looking exactly like a real environment.
And so they're used to video game graphics and so when they see something low poly that isn't Minecraft or something, they're like.
What is this?
And so I don't think that's a valid argument either, that it's just so overwhelming.
I've never found an experience that's been so unbelievable in a headset that either students were willing to put up with that.
Or to your point of why three df is, makes such a strong case, is there's not been a VR experience that I've found that's been so mind blowing that educators are willing to put in the work that you currently have to do in the current system to use a headset with a full class.
Dave Dolan: Yeah, exactly.
And listen, you know, I love this stuff.
But if I would've been given the choices that were available, I wouldn't have bought.
Right.
You know, so, I agree with everybody that, those choices can I say sucked?
Shannon Putman: absolutely.
Dave Dolan: Okay.
Well they really
Shannon Putman: podcast.
We can say what we want.
Dave Dolan: Oh, better be careful there.
We both can come up with some salty language, I'm sure, but yeah.
Okay, so we'll bypass that.
Shannon Putman: But no, exactly.
And you know, it's funny because I kind of made a little joke to it about that you had wanted to talk to me and you thought it was gonna kind of be like a showdown and stuff.
And I'm, first off, I'm glad that it wasn't people tell me I can be intimidating.
Not that you did, but I hope I'm not, I think I just, I don't know.
It's just.
My sarcasm or whatever, but I'm of the full belief that I don't like, and I feel like it's, I think it's more industry that like, does it, 'cause of course obviously they all wanna make money, but like, I think there's a time and a place for everything.
I don't think there is.
And I'm fine.
You are opening my mind to more and more read off.
Like I said, I loved the Oculus Go.
I thought it was a fantastic elementary first headset, like one controller.
It everything.
It was like, it was great.
So, you know, I'm opening up more and more to it, but I also don't think it has to be all or nothing.
And we're seeing it now too with, and I think with like mixed reality, you know, pass through, like, oh well now it's gotta be mixed reality.
And it's like, you know, I haven't even gotten educators to put on a headset yet.
Now we're putting on a headset and have an like, I feel like we're trying to move too fast and we're not laying the groundwork for actual usage.
Dave Dolan: Agreed.
Agreed.
We're jumping too far ahead and this is why.
Having a look at a practical and feasible and sensible what can actually get into classrooms?
What can the average teacher I've, for a long time, I've written blogs about my, I dunno, fantasy teacher my, my standard teacher, Mrs.
Applebaum.
Right?
She's 60, 60 years old.
You know, she doesn't wanna put this on, you know, she's wearing makeup today.
She doesn't want to try to learn about vr, but she wants her students to be able to use this.
So if Mrs. Applebaum can just say yeah, that thing right there, just put it on and learn about atoms.
Okay.
Like, because I know it's pretty cool.
I saw something about that.
That's all right.
And that's good enough, right?
It's, it has to be extremely easy to use.
It has to make sure that you don't have the IT department involved, right?
Because all of, most of what VR brings about is that there are very high external costs beyond what the headset is.
Because once you get IT staff involved, you get a paraeducator, you get a teacher making a good salary, and you're using up that time to, to do it.
Somebody has to pay for that.
Now, every administrator who might be listing right now is perking up, right?
Because.
It has to make sense for them as well.
Right.
And you cannot eat away at budgets every year.
Right.
You have to have something that is gonna be meaningful, attending to learning outcomes and not be hard to do and not require all kinds of PD and and teachers, you know, digging into this and trying to figure out ways to use it.
Right.
It has to be simple.
Right.
So, but sixth off there, there's also an, you know, a big issue about privacy.
Right.
And you know, for, you know, when social media or the beginning of that lived on our desktops, right?
The data was limited.
Okay.
You know, for Facebook, and it was what we typed and who we followed.
It was just simply that smartphones change things.
Giving platform platforms access to our location, behavior, and kind of daily rhythm of life, right?
But VR is something completely different, right?
It doesn't just see what we do, it feels how we move.
So every glance, every blink, every twitch, every posture, every hesitation becomes data, right?
It can detect emotional states or physical conditions behavioral patterns, right?
Even things we don't consciously reveal.
So it's just like how a pregnant woman instinctively shifts her posture or the way that she sits, right?
The VR will sense this and know this, right?
And so it isn't just an evolution of data collection, it's an explosion.
And when that kind of biometric behavioral data is funneled into platforms built to profit from manipulation.
It becomes dangerous and becomes weaponized, right?
So how can we possibly allow this level of surveillance into our schools, so into our hospitals, into our workplaces with corporate data being so, you know, meaningful and need to be secured, right?
So the stakes aren't just personal, they're systemic, right?
If VR is to play a role in sensitive place, in sensitive spaces it must be disconnected from this kind of, I don't know, you could call surveillance capitalism, right?
And so there's a very big sacrifice we have to make about data and privacy if you allow that to happen, right?
And then I've had, you know, I've had teachers say, well, you know, it doesn't matter, like everybody's on social media anyways, which is not correct, right?
But you know, the problem is and some will say, well, you know, we don't put student names in.
It's anonymous.
Alright?
Okay.
So then you go, well then what's your reply to the Stanford study in 2020?
Right.
Where the examined tracking data and six, six off devices.
Okay.
researchers found that within five minutes of motion data, they could identify over 95% of the users by name in a pool of 100, sorry, 511 participants.
Okay.
Even when that data was anonymized.
Right.
Anonymized.
Right.
So just that the tilt of your head, the movement of your arms, your height all of this take you know, it's almost like a a unique fingerprint, right.
And so, you know, the main devices out there too are tied to social media companies, right?
Either meta or TikTok, right?
And the data trail gets longer, it gets deeper, it gets more intrusive, right?
So it's not just about what students are learning it's how they're moving and while learning and who's watching, right?
So movements are unique enough to act as a biometric identifier, right?
So, so what's the takeaway from that?
Right?
In education where student privacy should be sacred, six DOF opens the door to the risks that three dos simply doesn't 'cause In three doff there's no tracking at all.
So.
You start from, okay, we have absolutely no problem, nothing.
Right?
Or you open the door to say, well, you know, eh, it's not that bad.
You know, of course it's a company we can trust, even though they've been taken to court so many times around the world.
Right.
You know, like, and it just, people do this kind of this kind of moral gymnastics or, you know, or right to, to justify, well, I kinda like this.
This is a nice device.
Right.
And I, again, I have no, no qualms with it being a good, everything I've written and I've written about certain companies since about 2019.
I always start out with, it's a fantastic device.
It's a great price and it's wrong for education.
Those are the first three that I always start with.
Right.
And then I go on a rant from there, and.
Shannon Putman: No, but I mean, you're absolutely right when.
We are finding more and more of our lives being tracked and everything else.
And you know, as an adult I can sign up for that.
But as an edu, you know, in, as a student in education, you know, parents make decisions.
Educators have to be there as another wall to protect them and things like that.
And so we do wanna make sure that we're always protecting our students and, you know, and ourselves.
'cause it, you know, gets us too.
And you know, everybody that might be involved in that educational experience.
'cause we all know it's a community, you know, it's not just what happens in that classroom.
It's everybody.
And something that I also really liked that you mentioned was that, you know, if Jim gets a hundred and Shannon gets a 45, which is, especially if it's a, if it's a math or spelling test, then that's 100% accurate.
Dave Dolan: I.
Shannon Putman: yeah, de definitely.
But VR still isn't going to, you know, like.
Even six off, like whatever.
But it's not going to look at what they did and be like, oh, they did this and that, and this and that's why they missed it.
And then, you know, you still have to analyze the problem.
You still have to talk to the student.
Like, that's another thing too, that educators are like, oh, they just put that on in their own world.
And I'm like, so if you show a video, you don't talk to 'em about it.
It's like you still have to have that interaction.
And I've actually, and a lot of re my research has shown that it's actually increases my students' communication.
They write longer sentences, they talk and use higher order thinking and bigger words and things like that because they're inspired and they liked what they did.
Dave Dolan: So, so the counter argument on that right now, today in 2025 is that, well, AI can analyze that and you can tap into this.
Okay, so let's think about that just for a second, right?
Because some of the content that I make right now is using AI tools.
So I'm well versed in these AI tools, but we also know that, I don't know if they're still pending litigation against one of the companies because the AI tool advised a child to kill themselves, right?
Because they right in the us right?
We still know that it hallucinates that it will cite studies that don't exist and things like that.
So are we really gonna open that up?
Require that everybody has an internet connection.
Everybody has a, has is feeding all of their data into.
Check GPT or in Lama or whatever, like you're now going to keep enriching those platforms because that's what they need is they need more data for more people, right?
And what we're doing is saying we're gonna keep on feeding you so that you can charge us later.
Right?
And we've seen that, well, okay, it's only 20 bucks a month, you know, and then I think it was, I forget which one.
It's not coming to mind right now, but one went from $20 to $200 a month, right?
So, it's not in a sp in a place where it can be used, you know, maybe thoughtfully and meaningfully, you know, like directly with the students, right?
There's some that can be, I'm sure there's safeguards around some of it, but we're still learning more about this.
But I agree with you still that use the tools to how they can be used.
Don't start.
You know, doing the gymnastics to try to just fit it in there, but keep the teacher as the center of this, that, you know, knows and understands, you know, what's real, what's not, and how to help you to, you know, to achieve what you can possibly achieve.
Right.
Which is all any one of us in teaching wants, right.
Shannon Putman: Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And then and another key point that you mentioned too was content.
And the reason that I had always said the 3D you know, was the rotary phone was 'cause hey and a rotary phone got the job done like that.
There's nothing wrong with the rotary phone.
So that's the point.
There was nothing wrong with the 3D, but what I was seeing and what I was referencing was when it's just, oh, here look, we have 503 Dolf field trips and we hit every standard because this is this and this, and it's this pretty package and you don't have to do anything.
And like, that's the model that I didn't like.
And so when we talk about actual content and I was talking with you, you're like, oh no, we do that, we have this, we have that, we have interactivity and everything.
And also, let me make it very clear, three off field trips are still fantastic.
I love them.
I have no.
I think they're wonderful as well.
So I'm not knocking three dog field trips, but you can't give me 500 of those and tell me it's an entire curriculum, you know?
So what is it that you're seeing from the content that makes the difference?
Dave Dolan: Well, I'll just go a little bit further on what you're saying because there, there's a lot of companies that will say that we've got thousands of content pieces.
We've got thousands of lessons, you know, and I'm, we're not on camera, but I'm doing air quotes right now.
Okay.
And we have and I'll put an air quote around content as well.
You know, content to me would be how many words of content?
Because what you can do is you have a book, or you can have a book.
Now, if you have a picture book, right, that's great content for you know, that can be considered content for a five or 6-year-old, but the content is actually from the teacher.
They'll say, take a look at the picture.
What do you think?
This is where are they?
Right?
And any good teacher will turn that into a lesson.
But all the content is from the teacher.
It's not the company giving the content.
And then you take a textbook.
A textbook has a hundred thousand words of text in there.
It has pictures, it has examples, it has quizzes, everything else.
That to me and to you is content.
Right Now when you have that into a vr, okay, now you've got something, when you've got a simple picture, you've got something that you can play with five and six year olds.
But that's the extent.
So some of the maybe dodgy companies out there will say, well, we've got, we're curriculum aligned.
Okay.
Which I have some experience with curriculum alignment as well.
But they'll have an apple.
They say, you know, like, okay, the apple, okay, it is red.
So I mean, we're coloring, we're covering colors.
Okay?
Now it's an apple, so it's a food groups.
Okay?
And it's a decomposition, you know, because it's enough, right?
And all of a sudden it's filling about, you know, 10 different areas in the curriculum.
But to me it's hasn't touched any one of them.
Right?
You know, so tho those are just dodgy claims.
And I agree with you there, there's sometimes that a passive 360 video can be very good there.
The company outta France called Wild Immersion, a fantastic, you know, like under the sea and you know, on the savanna and you're right there with baboons and with, you know, elephants and Right.
And there's value in that.
So the value becomes.
The number of different things that you can do, right?
So if you're doing, let's say, English language learning of course it'd be nice to be, to have a speech recognition.
And for 99% of the companies out there, you go online and you have speech recognition and you can answer.
Right?
Now, I happen to have ELL with speech recognition that's completely offline, okay?
So that's a lot harder to do, but that means that I own the burden and I don't put that burden on the teacher, right?
I don't put it on the school saying okay just connect the internet.
Just get, and you know, there's never gonna be a lag.
Because I promise.
Right.
You know, come on.
Right.
You know, when I've talked before about internet connectivity, people always say, well, yeah, maybe in Africa.
I say, well, there's three countries for me that, that are an issue.
Okay.
So number one is Kenya.
Number two is Canada.
Number three is Japan.
Okay.
So if you're better than those three countries, okay, then you've got no issue at all.
Okay?
And so I have a high school down the road for me.
I'm right in the center of Japan.
So if anybody wants to know, I'm about an hour outside of Kyoto.
And Shannon's gonna come out here next time she's in Japan because she'll come play pickleball with me.
Okay?
And so there's a high school down the road, not, you know, about 20 minutes away from here that has turned off the internet because of they're worried about student data privacy and everything else.
So they just simply choose not to have the internet.
And so when you come with an internet based solution, you're saying, well, okay, Japan, nevermind about you, Canada, let's say rural Canada, Saskatchewan, we don't really think about you.
Right?
And you know, it's interesting when you brought up about the go, the Oculus Go, right?
I think it was, that was pre-med, I guess, right?
So Oculus Go.
I was the happiest guy in the world.
Because I had made, you know, a big STEM library of content.
And the problem was that when you play on different devices, I had no problem in playing on different devices.
Okay.
But loading the headsets and everything else became the chore.
And so if you had a good, solid headset and the go was I have a go right in, right behind me right now.
And the content I made was played beautifully on there.
And I think you might have some knowledge of this.
Is that's not the issue.
Okay.
So the issue was that because it's Oculus, you needed a phone to, to set up, you know, the headsets.
I had a a horror story from 48 headsets into a private school very top school in Montreal.
And it was just.
I guess I can say the word hellish, right?
And it had content, lots of content, everything played beautifully, right?
But that wasn't even the issue, you know, because when you don't marry the hardware with the content you've got a problem because, you know, people say, well, we'll use WebEx XR or something, right?
We'll put it online and force the user to have to download it onto the headset and manage it, right?
And there's ways of managing it.
And I know those companies, right?
And they're wonderful people.
I've met them all.
Right?
But the problem is that you're still putting the burden on the schools for the infrastructure.
And then if it's six off, you're also opening that up to privacy issues and you're increasing the cost so much.
I'm surprised you haven't come back to the cost
Shannon Putman: Well.
Dave Dolan: the cost issue because.
I don't know how we're doing for time, but
Shannon Putman: 13 more minutes.
We're good.
Dave Dolan: we're good.
Okay.
So I'll give you one statement, okay?
And then you ask your question.
Okay?
So here goes, alright.
So every time you use a three DF headset, okay, the cost goes down.
'cause all of your main costs are internal.
Every time you use a six off headset, the cost goes up because all of your main costs are external.
Okay?
Chew on that for a
Shannon Putman: Okay.
Dave Dolan: Okay.
So three, do all your head, all your costs are internal.
So every time you use the price per usage is going down, but six stop is completely opposite.
You're gonna be paying for next year.
More and more
Shannon Putman: Okay.
Okay.
No, you're right.
So when we do look at costs and you're saying that, so, you know, we've touched on internet and everything and I was just in, in a school in Kentucky last week and in the classroom in wifi, it, my phone was an SOS and nothing could connect.
So, I mean, that's not, and this was a newer school, so I agree with you on that, like a hundred percent.
But yeah, so when you're not having to use the internet or the bandwidth or anything like that with your cost, so I always say, you know, there's no nined off.
Like we're not going any further in the advancement of that.
Like what you're seeing from new headsets are, you know, longer battery, lighter, you know, cooling system pass through.
Those are the big things.
But then again, that's a having to buy a new thing every time.
So when I keep that consistent with the three do, how is that gonna con.
Continue because you continuously say, I'm gonna need the internet, but then how do I get updates?
Or how do I get new things on my three headset so that I'm not then accruing a cost?
Dave Dolan: Okay, so you've touched on a couple of things.
One is that with the six df, you're basically talking about a gaming and entertainment device.
And they are constantly changing and there are new cycles of development, right?
Because they have to keep up, right?
With three df you, you're not running into the same issues in that way.
So I've delivered out a three off solution five, six years ago.
They're still being used in the school.
There's just no issue, right?
So it's not like, well, we have to update the, you know, now it's okay.
Now it's the go.
Okay, no go is no longer supported.
Now it's the Quest.
Quest is no longer supported.
The Quest two, no now we're no longer supporting this.
It's Quest three like, okay, you user just keep buying and you know, and this is the best thing for education, right?
And.
You know, it just like, I have the quest, you know, and Right.
But because I need to know, like, you know, how well it works and, you know, all the good and bad of it.
I can't honestly judge anything unless I have the devices myself.
So I have a wrath of devices here.
Right.
Maybe wrath is not the right word.
So, but anyways when you get, let's I think it's worth digging into this.
Okay.
So, and you let's bring up your favorite subject math.
Okay.
All right.
So let's make a few assumptions.
Okay.
Let's assume that a school day is six hours long and a school year is 180 days.
Okay, let's just make that now.
It's, you know, Japan, they're a little bit longer.
Some countries maybe a bit shorter, but it's not a bad average.
Okay?
Six hours long.
180 days.
Okay?
What this creates is that if you had a vr module that's about 10 minutes long, which is a good, you know, 10, 12 minutes, you could do four of those per hour, okay?
So over the course of a year here's the math for you, is that you could do 4,320 sessions, right?
Where a student picks it up they learn about photosynthesis, puts it down, next one comes up, go to Mexico and, you know, check out Mexico City, whatever it is, right?
So you've got the availability of over 4,000 sessions, right?
You're never gonna do, well, you're probably never gonna do that with six off because it's too complex to set up, right?
But let's just, let's set that as the baseline, right?
The co. Now I checked with Chad, TPT.
So we have to see, let, like give me a high school teacher in the US with about 20 years experience.
Just what's an average rate for that teacher now include vacation, pay, healthcare, everything.
Just what, whatever admin has to pay for that teacher.
And that comes down to $21 and 62 cents for 15 minutes.
Okay?
And that's what you're gonna, so now some people will say, well, that's too much.
Okay, so let's magically take it from $21.
Let's put it at $5.
Okay?
Okay.
So we're gonna pay $5 for that teacher to be there to monitor this this six off headset could be an, it could be a para paraeducator, you know, a teacher's assistant, somebody, right?
So let's say we're only paying $5 for that, that that teacher to be, or that person to be there.
That's 21.
That's $21,000 that you're gonna have to pay every year just in monitoring.
Okay, so now you look at a standard headset should last about five years.
So that's $108,000.
108, yeah, $108,000.
Okay.
And that's your cost.
So if somebody's saying, well, I bought the headset for 2 99, or I got it for 3 99, doesn't matter, right?
That's not anywhere close to what your costs are, right?
Because conversely, let's say you were to get a three off headset and pay a thousand dollars.
I said before, let's say we paid a thousand dollars for that headset.
Now if you use that, you know, over the five years, there'll be 21,000 times that you could use this.
So you're basically paying 5 cents.
Per usage, that is the extent of your usage, right?
So when people say, ah, you know, VR is really expensive, I go, yeah, I know 5 cents is really tough, but you know, maybe we can find that in the budget somewhere.
Right?
You know, so they have this image that it's thousands and tens of thousands of dollars.
Right?
Now you're not, now that's only one headset.
You know, you're not gonna get behind it in the school with one headset.
But what it gives you is an idea that you're actually saving money for.
If you think about what the cost is for delivering information, delivering this, you know, part of a lesson or more information about this topic on, let's say, you know, stem cells or whatever it is, the cost for you to deliver that.
If it's done by a teacher or videos or something downloaded from the internet, there's still a, there's still a cost there.
So that cost is.
Is almost negligible with the VR when it's done in the proper way, but it's gonna be hundreds of thousands of dollars when you add in teacher time and it time set up and everything else.
And then if you have VR as a class experience you need space.
And then there's real estate costs, and I won't bore you with that but the real estate costs can also be in tens of thousands of dollars, right?
If you're, you actually have to add these things in because it, it's meaningful, right?
And you say, well, you had maybe dedicate a whole classroom or the gymnasium, we're never gonna play basketball again.
We're just gonna set up headsets and have them be there.
Or you know, or you say, well, we're not gonna do that.
We're just going to go out and tape it out, you know, on next Friday.
And then you're hardly ever using the, vr, you're now turning it into an event rather than a real educational tool,
Shannon Putman: I see dropping all the knowledge and the wisdom on us.
I,
Dave Dolan: dropping the knowledge.
That's all I do.
That's right.
Hard.
There we go.
Shannon Putman: No, but I mean, it's all true and especially like not going political or anything, but just in today's climate with funding and who knows in, you know, like in America, you know, what's going on with Department of Ed?
Is it their, is it not funding?
Like it's a legitimate concern.
And so if you're not talking about cost, then you're not doing, you know, your customers a service because that's always going to be it.
'cause they're always like, you know, I have the money this year, but I don't know if I'm gonna have it next year.
Dave Dolan: yeah.
Shannon Putman: And that's always a big problem.
Dave Dolan: so the last thing on that I'd wanna say is that, like, to me, my kind of maybe.
Personal mandate is that you have to have something for every school in the world, right?
I don't care if that school is in Peru or they're in Sierra Leone or they're in Norway, right?
It doesn't matter.
You have to have something that can be meaningful to every student because there's so much power to this VR stuff, right?
And there's so much efficacy that we've learned over the last five to 10 years in all the research saying about retention and recall accuracy.
And it just goes on and on.
You know, there's so much benefit that can be made that to squander that is just, it's heartbreaking to me.
And a lot of that is because, I'm sorry, but the sixth off stuff has thrown a huge curve into this and, so about the money, about the efficacy, about privacy, about the space, the real estate, on and on.
There's so much that you have to sacrifice just to get it in the classroom, and that is just like I said I'll leave you with one word.
Heartbreaking.
Okay.
Shannon Putman: Yes, that is a good one.
And that's not something that we want to be feeling in education.
You know, that's something we want to avoid.
So, so thank you for that.
It's been absolutely profound and eye-opening, and every time I talk to you, I, you say something else that brings up a valid point that changes a little bit more in my mind.
Not that I like needed to have my mind changed, but I. I will be adjusting my rotary telephone line, just so you know.
I, yes, I will absolutely be delivering it very differently and and I have you to thank for that.
So this is, this has been absolutely wonderful and fascinating and it's gonna be worthy of a double pop episode, which I is, this will be our first one, so that's even more exciting.
But obviously of course people, you know, hopefully know my contact information and stuff, but if they did wanna reach out to you or learn, you know, more anything going on with you, is there any, you know, way they could, you know, get in touch with you?
Is there any kinda last message you wanna leave before the closing countdown?
I wanna make sure that you get to get everything that you need to.
Dave Dolan: Well, I'll just say a little bit okay.
In that I've been talking about this for many years now, but nobody's heard it.
Right?
Because I didn't talk so loudly about it because it seems self-serving to me because I was making 3D.
Hardware and or three off system.
So it just felt, it felt like I want to get the idea out there, but it wasn't about, you know, rewarding myself in that way.
But I've left those companies and so I, I've started my own company more recently.
And in doing that it didn't, I'm starting from zero, right?
So I can have any device in the world, I can have any system in the world.
I can do whatever I want, right?
And when looking at everything I've come to, as, you know, to this conclusion, right?
And so I just felt that we needed to be sensible.
You know, it had to be economical, feasible, practical, all of those nice words.
So if you wanna find me, you can go to sensible vr.com and that's where I am, right?
Or LinkedIn.
A lot of teachers wanna connect on Facebook, but I'm not a real Facebook guy because I, it would go against what I'm talking about in one way.
Right.
You know, so, but I feel so odd that, you know, I almost have to get on Facebook just to talk to some teachers which is a
Shannon Putman: I know.
Yes, they can get on LinkedIn.
All the rest of us have to use it.
Dave Dolan: yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
And so sensible dash vr.
Okay.
Don't forget about the dash dot com.
And that's where I am.
And I'd be happy to have a chat or I've had.
I've had this chat.
I'm sorry I'm taking more time.
But it just, I've had this chat in Almo, all of those countries that I've said before and many more.
Right.
And when I've sat with a teacher, it always started with Dave, you don't understand.
And the people around me always there, there ears perked up because they knew what was coming after.
Right?
Like, David, don't understand.
We're price sensitive here.
David don't understand.
They expect more immersion David don't understand.
And at the end of the conversation in 10, well you've had that conversation with me as well.
Right.
You know, at the end of 20 minutes or something.
It was like, oh geez.
Okay.
Yeah.
Actually, yeah.
You have an
Shannon Putman: I did get it.
Okay.
Yeah.
Dave Dolan: So,
Shannon Putman: Well, and I will definitely
Dave Dolan: Chad, I say one more thing, one more thing is that if you wanna have a third go at this I still have many things not, we haven't even talked
Shannon Putman: Of course.
Yeah.
Dave Dolan: yeah.
So,
Shannon Putman: I'm always down
Dave Dolan: hit me up anytime.
Okay.
Shannon Putman: Absolutely.
And I'm gonna put all the links and stuff in there too.
So, you know, like the kids say link and, or like, and subscribe, all that kind of good stuff.
Yeah, exactly.
But you're not gonna get away without answering the closing countdown, so I hope you're ready.
Dave Dolan: Oh,
Shannon Putman: Yes.
Yeah.
Dave Dolan: Okay.
Shannon Putman: So the closing countdown it's three, so you gotta gimme your three.
And I'm, I try to get things that people have never been asked before, and it doesn't, it's nothing work related, and so I figured this would be a good one since we're kind of mentioned one anyway.
But what are your three favorite childhood toys or entertainment?
Something that was like you had to physically hold or use?
Dave Dolan: Wow.
Okay.
Back in the day, I haven't thought about this for a long time, but back in the day there used to be meno sets.
I dunno if you remember, they were, they kind of pre Legos, they were like these you would build something with it, right?
But you'd use a screwdriver and a wrench and things like that.
And there were mechanical sets.
So, I used to love doing that.
I'll throw in a book.
Okay.
Curious George.
That was always me.
Okay.
And I identified with Curious George.
Right.
And number three geez number three was, well, my, what I, a truck like as a child, I wanted to be a truck driver, right?
Because I don't know if you're old enough to remember BJ in the Bear
Shannon Putman: and the Bear.
I
Dave Dolan: was a truck driving dude with a little monkey or whatever it was or Right.
And I just had the idea that I could.
I could go anywhere I wanted and I would be paid for traveling because I wanted to travel and I'd be paid for it.
Now, somehow I ended up in Japan.
Right.
So I guess BJ and the bear just stuck with me.
Yeah.
So, yes.
Interesting question.
I hadn't thought about those things for
Shannon Putman: All right.
Good.
Yes.
Good.
Some good.
Hopefully fond memories.
Out of those at least, hopefully, I mean, we can go into childhood traumas and memories in
Dave Dolan: Let's not get into
Shannon Putman: another podcast if we want, but I think we'll have to bring in, change the title to something else, but,
Dave Dolan: Okay.
Good.
Trauma
Shannon Putman: right.
Yes.
I love it.
Dave Dolan: There we go.
Shannon Putman: The podcast everybody needs to move past.
Dave Dolan: Okay.
Shannon Putman: no, seriously though, this has been so great.
Thank you so much for sticking with me.
Anybody that knows me knows how great I am with time and calendars and schedules, and.
Poor Dave got on here and I was chilling at the movies.
But we made it work.
And I appreciate that.
So thank you for being understanding.
And it's just been, it's been wonderful.
Really.
It has.
And I can't thank you enough and I hope that everybody listens with an open mind and and here's the message behind what you're saying and that's why I felt like I got along so well with you, is that, you know, we care about the students and that's what we're working for.
So thank you.
Dave Dolan: Yeah.
So No, absolutely.
My pleasure.
I appreciate this
Shannon Putman: Yeah, it was great.
And hopefully you'll be seeing people be seeing some more, you know, maybe collaborative opportunities between these two powerhouses.
Dave Dolan: for sure.