Kevin Paul
Welcome to the Sound On Sound people and music industry podcast channel with me Kevin Paul. In this episode, I talk to Tim Brown about his career as a producer, a writer, and a technological innovator. 

Tim began his production career in Guernsey. He then worked at the legendary Fallout Shelter Studios at Island Records in London, where he collaborated with artists such as Julian Cope, Misha Paris, Omar, and ex Big Audio Dynamite band Screaming Target, and also one of the innovators of ResRocket, which was one of the first online MIDI and audio transfer systems.

He co produced London Grammar's debut album, If You Wait, with his production partner Roy Kerr as My Riot, and has since worked with artists such as Birdy, Paul McCartney, LaRue, Katie Tunstall, Halsey, The Verve,  Imelda May and Primal Scream. Today Tim continues to make waves in the music scene, working with both established and up and coming artists.

It's a wonderful interview, full of great stories, and lots of things to understand and learn, and Tim, thank you as ever for your time.

Tim Bran
Hello, nice to be here. Oh, I'm in my studio, don't need to say it, nice for me to be here.  Thank you.  Where do we start, Tim? How about your love for dub, reggae and electronic music?

Where did that come from? I was thinking about this the other day, because obviously leading up to, uh, to talking about what you've done, you suddenly think, God, especially when you've been in it a few years like me, you kind of realize all the different, um, different levels you get, you know, different places you go with your career.

And, and that was me coming from Guernsey. I'm originally from Guernsey in the Channel Islands, uh, from a quiet, uh, quiet little island of 65, 000 people for all my kind of, you know, teens and early twenties, coming to London. Getting a job at Island Records. Okay. And in their studios, not, not for the record, it was for the record company.

I was being paid by the record company, but back in those days in St. Peter's Square, they had two studios, one called the Fallout Shelter, which you may have heard of. Yeah, I remember that. And it was an SSL deep dive studio. In deep below island records and uh, there was one opposite as well Actually two studios opposite one was a mastering studio and then there was a 16 track With like an atari in there and stuff and that was I did actually most of my work in there Um, I was just they just literally say right this week.

You've got this band this week You got this band They were very wise having their own studios because obviously paying for another studio to demo a band is really expensive Was it really expensive in those days they thought wisely and had this amazing team SSL studio in the basement, which actually most of their stuff came out of.

Wow. And this other studio opposite. So I worked with some great people in there. There was literally every Monday, I wouldn't know who I was working with until the morning. And then Trevor Wyatt, um, my old boss there, uh, would say, Oh, you're working with the guys from BAD this week.  Brilliant. Or you'd be working with Julian Cote.

That's how I met Julian. Yeah, yeah. So, uh, and many others. Some loads of hip hop stuff and But it was literally like living in Jamaica, working for Island Records back then, I'm probably not like that anymore, but it was, it was, it was really incredible, it was such an atmosphere there, some of the great people running it, 4th and Broadway were in there as well, there was loads of hip hop stuff, and it was, yeah.

Because they had like, well, I mean, although they weren't from the UK, they signed Eric B and Rakim, they had loads of people, didn't they? Yeah, it was a real buzzy record company, and  so much going on, like, Mango Records was based out there, so it was Right across the board, suddenly I was, I'd moved from Guernsey literally over a weekend.

That's a whole nother story. I got the job on the Friday and they said, can you start on Monday? I of course said yes. Um, and then came over and, and met all these incredible, I was in with hip hop. People straight away, hip hop bands and artists, having not used a sampler before, suddenly there's an S 1000 in front of me.

I was literally, I know everyone says this, but I was literally in the toilet reading the manual or going to ask somebody, how do you get, um, how do you put stuff in a key group? And it takes you back. But, um, it was, uh, yeah, I literally had to learn it straight off. And, um, And then ended up working, like I say, with people like, um, Greg and Leo and Don Letts, um, who were at the time called Screaming Target.

Yeah. And, uh, Julian Cope, and I was, basically, fell in love with, with, uh, dub, especially. You say reggae, but dub reggae, I just, the, the, being able to play a mixing desk was like me playing an instrument. I've just, I don't know, Why I loved it so much, but it was I'm a keyboard player. You're your musician.

Yeah, that's your thing piano. Yeah. Yeah Yeah studied piano studied violin and guitar and play guitar and stuff in bands But I'd say keyboards and mixing desks are now my instrument But I just love the fact you could literally set up some delays and feed them back on themselves and just and you sometimes didn't know What you're gonna get  Um, so it was like a new instrument, it was like, and I just fell in love with it and, and decided to try and nail it, and through Dreadzone of course that, that came true.

What sort of music were you into when you left Guernsey? Oh, it was Into like, the Clash and Were you into pop music? Okay, you were into underground sort of Not underground, but the Clash and the Undertones and, uh, the Jam and, and then, obviously, you know, um, through the 80s it was, uh, Human League, you know, all the electronic stuff that came out.

Oh my goodness, that was like, what is this? You know, Dare, you know, things like that, Human League.  Oh, what other bands I was Oh, Gary Neumann I loved as well, things like that, just seeing And then he, interestingly, Gary Neumann mixed the live with the synths, which was like another  Which is actually thinking about it, what I'm still doing today.

I'm mixing the electronics with, with Roy, um, Kerr, who I work with in my right. We, we go between the two worlds and, and mix the electronics and, and the, uh, and the live instruments. I think that's where most of the magic can happen, I think. That's sort of where you sort of  I think so. Yeah. Unknowingly, but yeah.

Yeah. Just electronic, I kind of hit the beginning of like, I had an early Linn drum and things like that, and suddenly discovering all these samples and being able to mix it all together and going back to my own studio in Guernsey and trying it all out. I had to, you know, to try it on other people actually.

I'd get bands in wanting me to record them and I'd just try stuff out on them really, and obviously it worked out fine, but they, they, you know, I could experiment with adding samples and electronics and effects and stuff, so.  So that's basically your technique, isn't it? That's, that's who you are as a I think so, thinking about it.

Yeah? Yeah. And your influences, like you say, were, were the Clash and, and electronic stuff, and you got into dub. Where were your informative years? Was that, was that down at the bunker? I think so. I think that's That's where you learned your technique and Yeah, well down, well you see, it's funny because I went from bunker to bunker because in Guernsey my studio, I don't know if you know this, but in, in Guernsey was occupied during the Second World War.

Right. So there was, there's loads of German bunkers there.  Most of which are now studios. I've got there two or three that are now really nice studios. You go in and go, oh my goodness, there's a high tech studio. Well, yeah, and what else can you do with a German bunker that's underground? I mean, most people back in the day were storing wine in them and things like that, but there was not much else you could do.

So I remember renting my studio. I was thinking about this. Uh, I think it was 30 a month I was renting my studio for. And it was like huge, huge underground labyrinth of rooms. Um So I went from that bunker, in Guernsey, where I was trying stuff out, literally trying stuff out, and learning how to use a limb drum and a sequencer, moving to London, then learning samplers and stuff in Island Records, Fallout Shelter, um, in there, and, and the, the, um, the room opposite where actually I did most of my stuff, like I say, in the 16 track, working with people like, Yeah, Julian Cope and Misha Paris and Omar and loads of hip hop stuff.

Overlord X, Black Radical, ended up playing on loads of stuff as well. Have you? There you go. I genuinely still got them.  These guys coming in and just flooring me with their, you know, their rap and stuff. I mean, just incredible talent. And ended up playing loads of it. There was a Hammond Organs sitting in the corner and they'd be like, they'd have their decks out and they'd go, Oh, can you, can you play that?

I was like, yeah, sure. So I'd end up playing Hammond on stuff. That's how I met Julian Cope, you know, playing Hammond on stuff. And then after that you  Well, in between that, I did a kind of world tour. Uh, Julian at the end of the album, it was Peggy Suicide I was involved in that album, engineering that, and Hugo Nicholson did a lot of it as well.

And at the end of the album, because I'd played on loads of stuff, just kind of naturally, I didn't  Yeah, you just say, can you play some keyboards? And I'd naturally play it anyway, but, um, Julian said, do you want to come on tour? And I was like, this was somebody who I was playing his songs in my, I was singing Reward and Passionate Friend, you know, in a, in a band when I was like, you know, 14.

And he's asking me to go on a world tour with him. What does that feel like?  I was blown away. I said yes straight away and then thought, oh no, I've got a job, hold it.  But amazingly, and I still thank him, well I'm thanking him now, but Trevor Wyatt, who was my boss at Ireland, said, you go on tour with him, you can come back and have your job. 

And he did the same with Screaming Target, I went on tour with Screaming Target who were an island act, both of them island acts. He said you can have your job back, you can go on tour with them and help them with the sound and stuff. Which was incredible, I mean, that's the win win, you know. Went on a world tour, Japan, America, with Julian Cope.

Playing bass and keyboards and then came back and carried on and then met Greg Dreadzone, you know, and Leo and Don Letson. That was, yeah, that led it through to getting into Dreadzone, which was pretty much the 90s. Uh, 92.  96 was the peak for me with Little Britain. Yes. Signed to Virgin Records. Signed to Creation Records first.

Yeah. Then signed to, uh, Virgin, Little Britain, uh, before the TV series. I like to think they might have heard it. It's a great record. That was a big hit, Top of the Pops. Yeah, it's a fun, great record. Still, it's really proud of, Second Light, uh, it was just, uh, everything that was right about  Dreadzone and the way we were thinking about the world and Britain and where we were living and the hope and the Not hope things were going on at the time poll tax and all this stuff and Uh, it all came into that record and really just hit a nerve with everybody.

I think it was a Quite an apt name as well. Yeah. Yeah, and we did loads of touring. We just toured every festival. They're still going they're still talking  Uh, do you still do anything with those guys? Yeah, i've been involved in the last few records I've mixed um mixed the last few records and wrote a couple on a couple of albums ago and uh, Always see greg.

He lives up the road and always, you know, see leo now and again and don Um, and Dan as well. So I mean, yeah, I keep in touch with those guys and they're still touring, like I say, so. They're all at the major festivals, aren't they? Yeah, very, and they rock it every time. So, Left Island Records. Yeah, well on tour.

To Dreadzone. Yeah. Julian Coe. Dread Zone, then discovered technology, deep technology, Rez Rocket, you mentioned them on the intro. Yes, that's right. So tell us about that. Well, it's a long story, but I'll try and condense it. So basically, we figured out,  me and this guy called Will Henshaw, who lived here, he's now living in LA, but he, uh,  was in a band called London Beat, which I produced.

Yeah. Met them. I did an album with them. Me and him really got on, both tech heads, really musicians, tech heads, just absolutely got on, like a house on fire, still good friends. And, uh, he was like, let's form a virtual band. So early days of the internet, really early days of the internet.  Will is the kind of guy who doesn't do anything unless it's 100%.

He won't just go, let's try this out. He, so he set up a server, set up an ISDN line, really full on internet, even though it was just modems and you could barely anybody had ISDN. In Kensal Road, in Kensal Town. Well, it's Kensal Studios, yeah. Uh, above Eastcote. And we had a big room up there. We had a really fast internet line.

We set up servers. We set up a virtual band. Didn't know quite what it was yet, but then we met these two guys in the States called Matt Moller and Canton Becker. They were fresh out of college and they were Complete tech heads, but also musicians. So our equivalent in America, weirdly. Yeah. They were more, they could code though, they could make this stuff.

So they'd figured out how to make MIDI work over the internet. Even on a modem, even on a cell phone. You could, like, plug your laptop into your cell phone and MIDI's tiny information. It's like kilobytes.  It wouldn't stream it, so if, just to get technical for that, you wouldn't stream it, it would, you'd be running a sequence at your end, and when it came in, it would, uh, align with your timeline.

So it didn't matter if it was stopped or playing or whatever, it would just line it up with your timeline, so it was a big loop, basically. It would come in, it would play in time with your stuff. And we tried this out with them, and it was really basic software at the time, really basic. music ends But we were like, this is the virtual band.

Yeah. We can have anybody, anywhere in the world playing with us.  So we did it. We set up, the four of us, set up a company called ResRocket. That was generated by a random word generator, by the way. Put loads of It was actually ResRocketSurfer. We thought that great loads Put loads of cyber names into it.

And it came up with ResRocketSurfer. We were like, yeah, there you go. Um, it later changed to Rocket Network when it became Posh. We were jamming with people in all over the world. Venezuela, Chicago, Australia. Yeah. Some of which I'm still friend, Norway, uh, you know, there was Austria, yeah, all over the world. 

Every night, late night, we were just there every night in the studio. Was it just a hobby at that point? No, it was never, we always knew we had to see this through. It was like, I've said this since, sort of, kind of like holding a holy grail and going, I have to see this through. So I kind of left the music, I left Red Zone, I was producing other stuff as well, so I kind of left Red Zone right at the peak, really, at that time. 

With little Britain coming out stuff and touring and to be honest, I'd had enough of touring by then I toured for about 10 years and I was really burnt out. I wasn't very I wasn't particularly healthy I was eating really badly and I was smoking too way too much and it was just all too much and I  Yeah, I was over it.

I was really over it. I was kind of pretty broken by that time. Too much touring can do that to you. Yeah, yeah, for sure. A lot of people go through that, don't they? It was just becoming another hotel and another bus and another hotel. And I just, when you don't enjoy it anymore, that's the time to quit. So it was a good kind of time to go, Right, I'm gonna see this through.

So yeah, then we set up a company, ended up like, I don't know how many people, 50, 60 people working for us in San Francisco, got highly invested in. Paul Allen invested, he started Microsoft, he invested it in the States, we ended up with this massive company. Which in the end, we worked with Logic, we worked with Potals, we worked with Cubase, they all put it into their software, and now it's, not many people know this, but it's actually in, Pro Tools.

It's called Pro Tools Collaboration, I believe now. It's just been released a few years ago. It's taken all this time for them to get it in and get it working incredibly well. And also DigiDelivery, which was something else we came up with. Moving files. We came up with that as a by product of moving stuff around.

Yeah, yeah. It was an, uh Well, DigiDelivery was always working. Yeah, that was highly successful. Yeah, it was a kind of, uh Lossless compression a way of getting your sessions around basic, which is what we were doing when we were sending session So jumping back to the midi we got working and then one day matt muller in the states said I think I know how to get audio working with this and we were like what?

When can you get this done and he literally said I can do this over the weekend So he went away and coded away and then on the whenever it was over the weekend  Maybe it was sunday night or something me and will went to the studio and he sent us a bass drum  And then certainly as a vocal, we were like, Oh, my God, this changes everything.

So we had to see that through. That's proper jaw dropping. Yeah, it was proper And I think we might have that on film, actually. My friend Rupert's been making a documentary all this time, so one day you'll see that documentary. It's quite a mad story.  It ended up getting bought by Digidesign Avid in the end, and then obviously now they've got Digidelivery, so cut a long, very long story short, that's a whole era.

But then, had to get back into music, I was like, hold it, we've seen that through now, what am I going to do what, five years? Yeah, yeah, at least, yeah. Because I remember you at the Mute Studio, coming up to the studio, and you were using the internet connection there. That's right, I was, yeah, neck head. Right, you were on the floor.

Yeah. With a, with a tiny, tiny keyboard. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, yeah, I'm just jamming with some guys in San Francisco. Yeah. And Will was like, what? Yeah. He's like, yeah, yeah, don't worry, just plug me in. And, like, it was fascinating. I mean, it was proper, like, eye opening, jaw dropping. Kind of stuff and you imagine having that technology.

I had to see it through. There's no I could have gone You know what? Let's put that aside and up that way. No, absolutely. It was incredible You were right at the cutting edge there. That was a yeah, you know, that was when the internet was literally being born It was really early days. We are we in every week We ended up on Tomorrow's World.

Do you remember Tomorrow's World? I do, yeah. We did a live, it was live on BBC. I mean, it's the most nervous I think I've ever been. You must have been very nervous. I was sitting in the helm in, in uh, the Maida Vale Studios and with Coldcut actually. Yeah. Uh, and that leads on to how I got back into the music business.

Um, But we ended up doing a live thing with, uh, all sorts of people all over the world. Thomas Dolby, I think, was in San Francisco. And we had to make a track while they were doing the TV, TV show, basically. And it was absolutely, with vocals and everything. Uh, Sinead O'Connor was singing. Literally by the skin of our teeth, yeah.

I had to go and have a lie down afterwards. It was too much. It was like, it was too stressful. A lie down and a large brownie. Yeah, I literally had to have a lie down. Um, but yeah, it was amazing. It was amazing. So, seeing that through. And then. Coming out of that, and then, Oh, I really want to get back into producing, But I didn't really know anybody.

Things had moved on a bit. So, Matt Black, Coldcut, Yeah. Got him to thank for this. I'll do that now.  Matt Black, uh, was with Youth, And I think Youth said to him, Oh, look, my, my program is leaving. Programmer slash engineer.  He was leaving, and, um, I stepped in and, and, uh, worked for Youth for about, oh, goodness, five, six, maybe longer, uh, years.

Made some great albums with him, learnt a lot of it. For sure, yeah. He's a, he's a real old school, new school, because he loves technology as well, but he's got, he uses many techniques of brilliant psychology. I learnt so much techniques. Could you, could you describe one of them? Could you think of one sort of thing that's Don't want to give his secrets away, really, but No, no, I mean No, I mean, you're here to give the secrets away, so Ha, ha, ha, ha!

I learnt So many things off him that just getting the band or the artist in the right frame of mind and that might not be the happiest. That might not be good. What if it's a sad song? You don't want somebody to be all jolly. You really need to feel somebody, a poignant moment or making a special moment and just so many little lovely things he would do.

I don't know, just, just The psychology of, of, of the producer. I think that's a major thing to learn. Because he was a musician, wasn't he? It's not just plugging in a mic and expecting somebody to pour their heart out in that little box over there. Yeah. It's, how would you ever do that? And, and I've used,  not techniques of his, but I've just thought about that when I've, especially with vocals, which is literally pouring your heart out, whether it's a happy song or a sad song, um, I try and help the singer get into that way of thinking and, and however that is,  Do you do that by looking at the lyrics and  thinking about the song?

Do you discuss the song? It could be something as reminding them what they're singing about. Yeah. Because they would have sung that song since they've written it maybe quite a few times. Yeah, maybe hundreds of times, yeah. And now you're recording it, you want to remind them how, what those words mean, whether that is happy or sad or whatever.

Um, but just kind of get them in the right place and, and just,  I don't know, it is, it is almost like a psychotherapy almost, getting, getting, is that the right word, psychotherapy? Yeah. Yeah, getting them into the,  the right  mood to go and sing that song. And capturing that, that's the thing, I never don't hit record.

That's a lesson I've learned where you know you go I'll just run through it and you don't record and you think that was that was the one that was that was the one I Haven't got it So but my first tip to anybody is record everything even if it's just that because pretty much the first and second take they will Do something that they'll never do again.

Yeah, because from third take on they'll be yeah I think particularly with new people was of new artists. I don't even know about that Yeah, you know the first two or three types are the ones where they're they're pretty much They're not thinking about it. They're on the, they're on, they don't know what they're going to do next sometimes.

It's the same with playing a guitar or anything. Sometimes the first two takes when you literally don't know what you're doing,  to an extent, you capture things that you, a little mistake might be the best thing that ends up on the track, you know? But you have to learn to recognize when the mistake Is a positive.

Well, yeah.  Don't you? I mean, you know, it's not as easy as, That's a mistake. We'll leave that in. Yeah, of course, of course. How, how do you make that judgement? Is that something that you feel, feel? Yeah. As a, as a listener? Yeah. It's how I feel. It's in, literally, in my gut reaction to something. If there's a croak or a little  moment where they give a, a motion away, it's not always good, like you say, but if that, Makes you feel something, then hopefully that'll make other people feel something.

How, how do you, when, when something like that happens, how do you convince the artist that they should leave it?  'cause artists go, I, they're up for that. I dunno, I think a lot of people are actually up for it unless they really don't like it. And of course it's their record. I would never impose something on an artist or a band that I've, even if I thought it was the best thing in the world that they, if they didn't like it, that's their record at the end of the day.

Sure. And there has to be, you know, I'm, I'm not the kind of producer who puts my.  Sound on it, on people, enforces stuff, there's some producers that do that, and you know what you're getting when you go to them, but I can work with many different types of artists. You started off as an engineer. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah? Engineer, yeah.  Which maybe a lot of people coming into the industry  might find themselves in that engineer sort of programmer role.  On the computer, basically. On the computer, basically, just, you know, using stuff, but also being very creative. How do you sort of  When you're working with an artist, how do you find that, that relationship in terms of  offering yourself up, but at the same time not sort of overstepping the, the imaginary line that exists between the people in the room?

Everyone's sort of, you know, the engineer has a role, the producer has a role, even the assistant has a role. Totally. How do you sort of learn that, those boundaries?  That's a really good question. I mean, I, I, there's less boundaries, well, there's obviously boundaries for me now, but there's less, but there was more boundaries when I was, uh, perhaps working at Ireland, and My naivety I ended up playing on stuff.

Anyway, I did was it was a natural thing I didn't even think about it. But thinking back I was ended up playing on stuff that I didn't force it on them But it was like, oh I'll play this just for the necessity of nobody else could play something So I didn't like playing keyboards and stuff But then I think I learned my role those roles working with youth because obviously he was a producer and I was the engineer Programmer so I had to get on with stuff and I was there was Clive Goddard as well engineering.

Yeah, so I am  We literally had our roles within that and and pretty much stayed in those in those roles. But again, you know, I I  Yeah, you have to learn to bite your tongue now and again and well and and and I now see this from the other side of the  coin, where, you know, like you said, an assistant is really important, and, uh, you know, they're really, as important, if you've got the wrong assistant, it can, it can make a session really awful, as in engineer, and everybody's important, literally everybody who's in that room at the time, and if they overstep their mark or say something out of turn, it's like,  you know, it's one thing, it's like, oh, this, you know, the assistant might say, oh, this song reminds me of such and such, and what if the artist hates that song? 

Very good point. Yeah, I mean, it's like It's a vibe killer straight away. Yeah, it's like, what, Hoddy, I don't like this song anymore because it reminds them of that song. So, things like that. One comment or one You have to be so careful, yet instinctive, and maybe get your point across in a You know, maybe I want the song more like this song.

Yeah. So I have to say, well, do you like You know, you have to steer the the artist towards Being open to, you know, referencing a song, but they might not like that song. So you have to be very careful in, uh, everybody has to be careful and, uh, respectful. But at the same time, you, but at the same time, you, you don't want to shut down.

No. The creativity. Absolutely. Do you? Because, you know, um, an environment of fear. Yes, and reticence. Reticence, yeah. It doesn't necessarily, well,  more times than not, doesn't produce. Yeah. Something that's original.  Absolutely, or brave. Or brave, yes. You don't want anything too safe all the time. I. Well, you, you've never really worked on safe records really.

I looked at your thing yesterday and even, even if you worked with an artist that on paper might be safe, your work with them, and that's with, with Roy as well, um,  was never really safe. It's, you always try to take I take that as a compliment. I, I do try and No, that is a compliment. It's trying to take that artist and move them. 

I use the term magnify. I try to magnify what they do. So even if it was just a person with a, I don't know, piano and a vocal, I try and magnify, what's the best gig they could play? What would be the best sounds to put around that thing? I still want the picture of them playing the piano and sitting there, or playing the acoustic guitar and sitting there, or just standing there singing.

What's the world that you want to create around them? And that's quite hard to do sometimes, but it's like, With a singer you could put any backdrop on them. You could put electronic you put acoustic you put so it's like What do they want and you were talking about not, you know, leading them  Down a musical path.

I always get them to send me a playlist of stuff that they're into. So I what's their world? What's their parameters what they like from this really electronic thing to this really acoustic thing? What's What's in all those things that capturing their ears and what's making their ears prick up? And I try and follow that path with them and show them stuff that they might not have done.

Otherwise, what's the point of me being there? Um, and now and again, I'll be playing something and they'll go, What was that? Or, you know, I'll, I'll, Well, Roy'll play some crazy thing he's made out of their voice or,  You know, stretching their voice or tune, making something out of the, I don't know,  playing stuff that they wouldn't normally like.

And they'll go, Oh, what was that? So,  again, we wouldn't put anything on that they didn't like. They hated of course, but we'll definitely throw things in there that they wouldn't have done and usually that opens up little Pandora's boxes of worlds that they'll, you know, even for each song, you know, sometimes their sound will be on one song.

I want to talk about your relationship with Roy. How did that come about?  Okay, so I met Roy, uh, Jazz Summers in fact put us together. Okay. We were both managed by Big Life. I remember Jazz, yeah, from Big Life. Um Roy used to be, well, used to be, is still, uh, an artist called the Freelance Hellraiser. And he, he, uh, comes from a DJing and mashup kind of background.

He did a lot of those early mashups, the Christina Aguilera Strokes one. Yeah, yeah. So that was his big, uh, that was his hit as a mashup. He's done many other great ones. Uh, and really started that idea off. Um, and then went into remixing and making his own album. He was, came from that kind of world. Uh, and I came from the kind of classically trained engineering world, and Jazz put us toge He always said, um, you two would work really well together, and he put us together for a couple of little projects, little one offs.

We worked on a LaRue, uh, kind of, remix slash mix, uh, and we also worked on a Scissor Sisters track together. Um, and then, literally the third thing we worked on was the London Grammar album, the first London Grammar album. And Jazz was like, right, you two, go. And, and produce this and, you know, we're this, these guys are amazing band and, and we really want to get this album finished.

And, uh, we were literally in the studio with them. That's their first record, wasn't it? Yeah, the first one. What, what were they like to work with when, I mean. Fantastic. I mean, they were, they'd never really done a gig. They'd done a couple of gigs at uni. They'd never toured  yet. They had the musical maturity. 

I've never really experienced before just the depth of music. They'd be playing stuff  Playing and singing and oh my god, it still kind of makes me wonder how these days but that was the purity in it and I think that's what they exuded then was the purity of  They didn't know how much they had. I think they'd never like I say, they never taught They never it was just natural what they did together.

The three of them was just It's a bit like when people say someone's cool because they don't realise how cool they are. Exactly that. Or how good they are. Yeah, exactly that, exactly that. Um, and we went in the studio and, uh, pretty much got them to play together. The first thing we did, and that was the sound.

The three of them together, that, when you have three people in a band,  Um, if one drops out, it's a massive silence. And that, Can be really magical so, you know, Dan would stop playing guitar for a bit and they'd be just piano and vocals and then maybe some strings and some sounds from machine or sounds from the synth and and it was just that Fragility and we had to really manage that fragility and not fill stuff up too much we're always very wary of that with obviously with them as well guiding the process and  Well, they were they were obviously open to you.

Yeah, but yeah to yourself a boy very much and and and You  I didn't want them to think we were in there to change them or to, you know, make them into something they weren't. And hopefully we didn't. Well, that's not the role of the producer, is it? The role of the producer isn't to change a band. Well, you say that, but some Unless it's predetermined.

Some producers are, I think. But we didn't want to do that. We wanted to help them  open up their world, and I'm really proud of that record. I think  that's the most, apart from Dreadzone, Second Light, and a few others, I think that's the most proud I've been of an actual album. And just Capturing that magic and we really did especially with um, like for instance night call which is a cover of the song from the drive Soundtrack we were I just remember it So clearly we were in the studio one night and I think the label or maybe the management wanted them to do a cover or something  and I remember roy saying oh, what about night call and they were like, oh, yeah, we love that song and and then hannah knew the chords already and dot went and played something and and and uh, Yeah I think Doc played drums on that maybe and Dan was playing the guitar and they pretty much did it as a live take Fantastic.

I love that. And that was in one night and we were like this is and that's why it's on sometimes it just edges into like there's nothing happening and then suddenly something comes in it's beautiful moments in that that um That captures them at their best. I think just that absolute fragility and obviously Hannah's voice is One of the finest voices I I will admit I I when we were recording, um  Um, wasting my young years, I, I did get her to do an, an extra few takes of the vocal just 'cause I was enjoying it so much.

Really. I'd just be sitting there on my listening to Hannah singing. I mean, what more would you want? We have more . Just one more. I I was really moved. I remember it. That's it was really connecting with me and, and you know,  and that I knew that would connect with loads of people. Yeah. I just knew it. Yeah.

Yeah. You get a feeling, don't you think you know what this is? Is it you go, this is moving me right now. Yeah. That's gonna.  People are just gonna, and I've, I've watched people at Glastonbury watching them live and just being  streaming, you know, I'm getting emotional just talking about it. Yeah, that's good, that's good.

But just to see that connecting, music connecting with people like that, it's really magical. Well, that's, that's, that's what we live for, isn't it, really? That was, that's the  The most I've seen it connect with people. Again, Dread Zone as well, I've seen that just direct connection. It's a different kind of thing though, isn't it, with the Dread Zone thing.

It's a much more energy Yeah, definitely. You know, sort of Losing yourself almost. Yeah, losing yourself state, yeah. Being happy. Utopia, euphoric state, euphoric, yeah. But, um, yeah, so that's a great example of capturing, bottling that, that magic and, and, uh,  and, and recording everything and, and using some moments where, you know, There's not much going on, but that silence is as important as the music.

When you start writing with a partner, with someone like Roy, how does the dynamic work there? I mean, is that, do you sort of both know kind of what you're supposed to be doing with each other? Is that a relationship that you sort of instantly fell into? Or is it something that you learn?  How does the songwriting process begin with, with yourself and Roy?

I think because he came from a more electronic mashup DJ Um, and I've come from the more analog side. I like to think of it as those two worlds. We do cross over. He wouldn't, he says, Oh, I'm not a player, but actually I've heard him play some great keyboard parts and great organ things. And he's, he's a, he's, uh, Closet keyboard player.

He is, he is, he is. He can certainly play, and he certainly has a musical ear. Well, for sure, for sure. If he's a DJ. But he's not trained in that respect. So that's what he means, I think, when he says he's not trained. Musical person, but he really is he knows he knows what's right and wrong Sometimes he knows what's wrong and then puts it in and it's brilliant.

And sometimes those moments of not knowing Yeah, sometimes if you know too much you're giving your your you think well I can't go to that key because that's not a relative major, you know So I like to think of the you know, I love recording vocals and weirdly. I love comping vocals I don't know if that's weird, but I really enjoy it and I the process of comping a vocal and Just getting it to sound as good as it can.

I'd absolutely love it and it's a real challenge for me and and uh getting the best out of it and mixing I love and the finer detail and um crafting and and and arrangement and  You know, recording stuff, recording, getting the, you know, I've learnt, at Island Records, I learnt, I was lucky enough to learn how to put the mics on something, and learn what to do, and How did you learn that though, because Just experimenting.

I did watch in the studio. You were probably, were you on your own in the studio then? Or, as in terms of stuff? Um, yeah, a lot of the time, a lot of the time, but I'd watch engineers sometimes. I actually learnt a lot off a guy called Laurie Latham as well. Oh yeah? Who produced a lot of A lot of stuff he's still producing now, but a lot of like the Christians and Paul Young and things like that.

Yeah. He, he came to Guernsey and he actually got my job, I mean my job at Island Records. He, he said politely when they left Guernsey, he said, oh if you're ever in London. He actually set me up meetings and the first meeting was with Island Records, they gave me the job. But I, I watched him miking stuff up and using synths in the studio.

He, he just let me hang out. I wasn't doing anything, working for them or anything. Really kindly let me hang out and learn. I think he saw I was keen, and I wasn't hopefully too annoying, um, in the studio. Well, obviously not. I kept my mouth shut and just watched, you know.  But yeah, I just, I just really soak up, still, every day, you know, I'm trying something out or learning, I'm sure you do as well.

Yeah, yeah, of course. Reading something, going, oh, I'm going to try that, you know. Absolutely, always following the Absolutely. Trying to follow,  or trying to, you know, if you hear a record that you like, you think, oh, how are they doing that? Yeah, exactly. And you'll spend an hour or two trying to replicate  That's the great thing about what we do is that you never reach your best or you never, you've never done everything.

Yeah. You've never recorded everything or you've never mic'd up something in the right way or you've never used every sound or, it's always a challenge and always a, a, a, well I, I just love it. I just love everything about every side of it really, apart from running off stems. You're not a fan, are you?

Well, who is? Who is? I don't know. So, how do you and Ward typically start a song? Oh yeah, that was the question. So, we came from two different worlds, and I think he tends to go more towards the kind of  bass beats, sounds, crazy synths and stuff, and I'll maybe come up with a more kind of melodic maybe, although he does as well, so we do cross over quite a bit, but typically, you know, there'll be A chord or a sound or that will trigger something off and trying to think of an example Oh, we wrote a great song with aurora.

Um, who's a fantastic if you haven't heard her stuff check her out. She's incredible. Um, From norway. She's she's a wonderful artist. We've done a couple of albums with her or it was one album that split into two And we, we wrote a song with her, and she came in and picked up, I've got weird instruments around the studio, and she picked up a little thumb piano thing. 

Oh yeah. This isn't the very one, but it's this  This kind of sound. Little, um Yeah.  And she played a little riff on it, and nobody had ever got anything out of this instrument before that was remotely in tune. And I was like, hold it, that's, hold it, that's in the key of D. That's really weird. Yeah. And, um, we proceeded to write a song with her.

And that was the start, that was the little spark that started the fire. And it's sometimes a little chord sequence, or a little synth sound, or a little,  even just a drum beat or something, or a bass line, or it's just one thing will trigger it off. And then,  typically we work with artists who are obviously singers, and um,  so they'll maybe get a lyric idea.

It depends on the, on the artist again, of course. If you've got somebody sitting there with an acoustic guitar, if they play piano, then they It might be them starting the idea off, so it's every, that's the game. They might have the chords. Yeah. Or the melody. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Or they might not have anything and we'll come up with loads of music and then they'll write, they'll sit there scribbling lyrics away and then, uh,  you know, sing a vocal and we're like, wow, where did that come from, you know, and suddenly you've got a song.

So every time it's different, that again, that's why I love it because every writing session, you don't know what,  you've never met the person before. Yeah, sometimes, yeah. Walking, it's quite strange, walking into a room and typically with us, the artist would just turn up, say hi, and within an hour before lunch, we'll have an idea of something.

Sometimes, a lot. That's quite liberating though, isn't it? that's, that's, you know, that's quite exciting. I love it. And actually, up until the last couple of years, we didn't really Do a lot of writing. We were more producing with with London Grammar. We didn't write anything with them We were just producing so we went into it as a producing thing and then thought hold it we can write as well Yeah, so we've met some great and actually it's a great way to meet an artist or a band to write with them first because there's No parameters.

They're not coming in with a song that they want produced in orderly There's a demo or you're coming you've got nothing There's a play you can start off like with Aurora's you start playing this little sound and like wow That started off a whole song and that might be  Then inspire another song in that, you know, in that same kind of world, so There's no, there's no,  not many boundaries as to where you can go sonically, which is nice So suddenly an artist will come up with a song that they might not have written Had they had the chords already or had they had, uh, the demo already How do you keep your ego under check? 

Because, I mean, you know, all artists, uh, have an ego of some form, whether it's a relaxed ego or quite intense. And obviously, you want to feel  like you're part of something.  How do you manage that when you're working with Roy and another artist, or even two or three people? Is that just your temperament as a person?

I think it is, yeah. I don't want to sound like I'm not perfect, but I, I don't really try and bring an ego into it. Having another ego in the room, I don't mind. An artist having an ego. In fact, you know, if they're a singer and they've got a bit of a attitude to them, as long as it's not nasty or They've got a bit of a charisma or a That's great.

That's what you want in an artist. You don't want to shut that down. I don't want to be bigger than the, you know, in the room than the artist. Yeah, that's what I mean. How do you go about not being the biggest thing in the room? But obviously, it's your room. We're here in your studio, you could quite easily be Johnny Big Potatoes,  you know, and Timmy Big Potatoes.

Or Timmy Big Potatoes, more importantly, you know, and  And direct it from that point of view, yet  We both know that that's not the best way to encourage people. No. If it needs to be done, then fine. If, if maybe the, the, the, the artist hasn't got an idea or they're not i'll, I'll just do stuff. And if they like it, then that's great.

Well, I'll try something, I'll go down a different avenue and try and help them find that. But  I mean, I have an ego obviously, and, but I have experience and I have. a confidence in that experience and there's Multiple situations i've been in and i try and bring that to them and offer that to them That's my enjoyment of collaboration.

And uh, you know, that's why I work with roy. I love working with roy we can Travel really fast on a song, you know, he sometimes i'm comping a vocal on headphones in the room  While he's working on something else with the artist. We can literally do two things at once sometimes. So we can do so much in a day or two.

That sounds like, you know, that's a great relationship to have, where you're, where you're both respectful of each other's  Talents. Yeah. We know our, our strong points and you know your strengths and you say, okay, look, I'm just gonna, I'm, I'm not, I don't feel the need to be involved in that because I know what I'm doing is really important.

Mm-Hmm. And I love comping vocals. And you love comping vocals. Yeah. Say this. Yeah. No, I love it. I absolutely love it. Um, and it must have been hell when it was type . Well, yeah. We were chatting about this earlier, before we started recording, weren't we? About, you know, recording, you know, doing the podcast like this.

Imagine editing that on tape. Yeah, I'd have been annoyed there. I had to wait 25 years for the series to record. I caught the end of tape, um, at Island. They still had the 24 track, and we were using it a lot.  And, and obviously the 16 track, and we used that a lot, but it was all synced up to the computers.

So we'd have the sync, even on the 16 track, we'd have that synced up to the Atari. So you'd be running the MIDI off the sync, along with the vocals. So it was both worlds again. It was the electronic and the analog. So mixing, and now obviously we do the same, but in Logic or Pro Tools or whatever we're using.

Let's talk about mixing. How do you, how do you approach mixing? How do you, you know, I give you a song.  Where do you start? What do you do?  I sometimes only mix. Yeah.  But more of the time I'm mixing something that I've produced. So it's an, it's a ongoing situation. Okay. So even from the very first day, I'm still in, I'm in always in mix mode.

I'm not the kind of person who likes to sit there with the,  I don't know, the guitar really loud. Going, oh, but that's not going to be that loud later. Obviously, when you're recording something, you're checking it, but I don't like to not be in a mix situation. I always like to hear it because everything is relatable to everything else.

And if you've got a guitar that's really loud, but you can't hear the piano, but how do you possibly know they're working together or doing the right thing together?  So, With that situation, it's an ongoing situation. So when we finish a mix, it's pushing it to the finish line. It's 90 percent there, maybe.

Right, okay. 80 90 percent there. And then we'll go, right, now we'll mix it, which means just really fine tuning. Polishing it up. Yeah, really focusing on the balance. Exactly, exactly. EQ and stuff like that. But most of it is kind of done. I would say by that point on an ongoing  basis as you're as you're writing from the start  all the time  You have the image in your head like of there's obviously when you're writing you've got no idea of what that song is But I presume at some point you do the the idea presents itself to you in a in a very clear way  And is that the point where you think okay, I started to build a picture now, yeah I know but I'm always even if it was just piano and vocals or even just that I'm always trying to get that to sound as Good as it possibly can so I'll always be going straight for the whatever reverbs or you know Trying to just inspire sonically as well.

Not just musically  And that can inspire sometimes You realize actually I don't need to put much more on because this is there's enough here Yeah, just by what i've put on here or the effects or put a you know reverb on and that's oh, it's fine. But uh, Now and again, I do get approached just to mix something.

Yeah um As i'm doing actually funny enough The next few days i'm just mixing a few tunes that I haven't produced I would listen to the ref mix. Obviously, they usually send me a rough mix Yeah And then I won't listen to it for a while, because I'll have gathered the kind of snapshot of what they were trying to do.

Then I'll do my own thing,  uh, and try to get it sound as, as amazing as it can. Vocals first.  If, if the lead vocal's not right, I always say this, I've said this for many years. If the lead vocal's not right, it's all over for me. For me. Sonically. You mean, sonically, you mean in terms of the sound? Yeah. Okay, not performance.

Not performance, but  I'll have listened to the track by then and heard the, so I would have known whether it had been finished or not.  Um, and maybe suggested that, that it needed some tweaks before I even mix it. Uh, but I'm not afraid to add stuff as well. I'll always say, look, if I need to add anything or if it's for the, for the right purpose. 

Purpose, you know, if it makes the song better or the mix better, then I'll add extra triggers, new drums or something. Okay, yeah. Um, or add some pads or something. You never know, you never, what I think it needs, I'll try and make it as, It won't be, uh, it won't be something that's totally different to what's going on.

I'll try to remix it or anything. Yeah, I'll try and be as, uh,  Complementary to what's going on, you know. Um, but yeah, I'll, I'll then, I'll listen to the rough mix and I'll switch between what I'm doing and then their mix and go, okay, phew, I'm, I'm better than what was going on before. And it's sounding a lot better.

Sometimes it's not, sometimes it's so production driven, the, the, the demo or the rough mix that you have to push it more. And that's the challenge again. Yeah, sure. But lead vocal, I try and get right first and try and get that sound as great as it can.  And then drums and then work in the extra stuff as well, the framework of the song.

Yeah.  And obviously, you know, by now I've got a million plug ins and outboard stuff that I can usually get a half decent vocal sounding really nice and really good.  When you're producing your own stuff,  do you ever suffer from Demo itis?  Where you've done something  For so long in a particular way that you could never come away from it, no matter what you think.

Yeah, but in that case I'd probably use the demo.  Sometimes you just do, sometimes like we were saying earlier about capturing everything, sometimes you've, we've recorded a vocal or something, maybe it's a piano or something, a guitar or,  I've plugged a guitar in here and roughly done something.  And then you go into a big studio and record the guitar properly with somebody else.

And then you go, actually that,  whatever's best. I really don't mind muting  an orchestra, if it's wrong. Or muting, uh, we had, we did, um, some tunes, just muted the whole string section, we went to, you know, record, if it's not right, what's the point, doesn't matter how long it took, how much it cost, if it's not right for the record, why would you put that on, you know?

That takes a lot of bravery though, doesn't it? That takes a lot of experience, to be able to Yeah, I trust my gut though, if my gut's telling me what I'm, that's the only thing I've got to rely on, and we've all got to rely on actually, there's no rules, is there? Well, it's a bit like when, when you first start recording, you record a drum kit with 15 microphones.

Yeah. And you sort of in some way feel compelled to use them all yeah, and it takes a lot of time for that to go I only need four. Yeah, maybe or maybe you know, yeah, maybe you do need them all sometimes Yes, yeah, but yeah to mute them. Oh, yeah to take them out or to trigger new drums or to trigger new drums You think yeah, it's I think whatever's right, whatever your guts telling you you have to go on that I think that's the one rule that I think everybody should go on really if there's one thing  to  Guide yourself by as you got and yeah That's what every producer, what every engineer, what every,  uh, record label, whatever, you go on your gut.

You go, that is incredible. I don't care if it's the demo, I don't care if it's  taken 15 that's amazing. That's whatever you've got there is just incredible. Oh, wise words. What's a process that you do,  maybe not every time, But a lot of the time Is that a spring weaver? That was my, uh, that was my answer.  I just noticed it on the wall there.

The pipe. It is. It's a great British spring. Is that your piece? It's one of them. Yeah? What else have you got? Well, that and the prophet, I would say. I'm the Juno. Oh, how many can I have? You can have as many as you like. It's not Desert Island Discs. You can't just take one. Desert Island Synths. Yeah, I would say Desert Island Synths.

There you go.  If I had to narrow it down, it would be the Juno. Yeah? The 106? Yeah, I've had that since I was a, you know, in my 20s. Amazing. Back in the day. So that's like 25. Yeah, that is an absolute  killer synth. It's, it always delivers. If I'm writing, I pretty much always gravitate to it. I know it's got, not got a million sounds in it, but the sounds that are in it are just, and I know it back to front.

Weirdly, I can still, if you said to me, get the brass sound from the manual, Yeah, I could get the brass sound from the manual in about 20 seconds. I know the positions of the faders It's crazy, you know, they used to draw snapshots. Yeah, I remember in the manual Presets on it. I I don't know but they'd show you those but I absolutely love it And my new acquisition is the prophet six, which is like another level It's like I absolutely love it and it's where the juno ends it carries on into The rest of the universe it's got the distortion in it.

It's got reverbs and effects and stuff so you can really You Some of the sounds you just don't know come out of a synth out of that thing and you just spotted on the wall Is my spring reaver? Yeah, which is a called a great british spring fantastic and I Bought that on ebay maybe about six years ago, and I was obviously with the dub and things like that Yeah, and reggae I've used spring reverb source, but that's always like the ultimate for me.

It's a  Six, five feet long drain pipe. Yeah, it's brilliant. With loads of springs, four springs in it or something. And I have that permanently,  um, on the mixing desk here. And when somebody's singing, that is the reverb I put on their voice. Okay. And it always inspires and sometimes it's like, why is that real?

And I'll end up using it sometimes, sometimes I won't, but it's Do you record it down, like, to tape? Yeah, yeah, I'll put the comp through it, eventually. Um, I'll record the comp if it, if it still suits. But it's such a nice dark reverb that it really glues the track. It's great on drums too, and guitars. Oh dear, it's got on everything. 

Um, so yeah, those would be my What about your favourite, what about plug in wise?  Is it something that you're using a lot of? Always. This is giving away my secrets, they're not really secrets. I love the Valhalla reverbs. Yeah, everyone's saying that. A lot of people are saying that. And they're so cheap.

I've been using them for ages. I've been using them for I absolutely love them. The shimmer. Yeah, love them all. I mean, they're just really good. And they're cheap. Yeah, 59. Yeah, something like that. You're not going to get a better deal. I love the UAD stuff.  I've got a UAD Apollo here. Is that your interface?

Yeah. Is that your interface? Uh, so I've got some nice choice ones. Obviously all the compressors and reverbs and the EMT plate and all that.  Uh. I use quite a bit of wave stuff as well. The CLA compressors and stuff are very good. I still gravitate towards them. I've got so many plugins now, you've got to, you know, especially with Black Friday just happening, I've got myself a few more, swagged a few more bargains.

It's like one of those things where when you start, you think every plugin is the answer to all your problems. Ah, my mix is going to be so much better with that on the mix bus or that on the drums.  Actually, it'd be interesting to set a challenge for everybody just to use the internal logic plug in and see how well you did because I bet Actually a lot of it would be as good I would miss a few of those those choice plugins the uid the uid eqs the ssl stuff and all that the um, The the e series eq and stuff.

It's just brilliant and it takes me back to my desk days I don't know if you notice i've still got my i've got this behringer x touch in front of yes Yes in front of the computer there just at my kind of just behind my computer keyboard You And I feel like having faders in front of me makes me feel comfortable when I don't have it.

When I'm somewhere else, I feel really, I don't feel complete. Yeah, a bit naked. Uh, yeah, so, just grabbing a few, you know, seeing the vocal up there, and grabbing the vocal, the touch fader and being able to do a ride on it or something, or just grab a few and do a drum balance. It makes me feel more comfortable.

I've come from that mixing desk background, and I love getting in. The room next door to mine here, this is We're currently sitting in my kind of writing mixing room, which isn't a massive room, but it's lovely and I've got all my synths here and I'm very happy here. But next door is a lovely big Neve room with a, um, owned by Brendan Lynch.

Yeah. Um, and he's got a lovely live room in there as well, so if I need to do something, drums, guitars, whatever, I go in there and we typically go in there.  Orak, uh, where Roy is based. We go in there a lot as well, so. And pianos and things like that. But yeah, so I can go in there and get excited about mixing desk and all the outboard and, uh, there's tons of it in there.

Yeah, there's loads of lovely preamps in that room. Beautiful. Lovely, I noticed. Max, uh, Hayes, who, who is the engineer in there, absolutely knows it back to front. He gets the greatest sounds out of that room. It's just incredible. That's what it's all about, isn't it, really? Knowing the room. Yep.  And I try and bring some of that into my logic sessions.

So, for instance, I know a lot of people will put a reverb as an insert these days. Um, but I set up my sessions like the, uh, you know, my outboards. One long reverb, one short reverb, couple of delays, couple of, I'd use those on the buses. Yeah. So I'm sending lots of things to them, not just one thing for one thing kind of thing.

So I still treat it like an outboard. It's just inbuilt. I can't, that's the way I tend to work. The last section is dither and delay. And that's not about the technical dither and delay. That's, that's about what you try to avoid in the studio. As opposed to what you like to do. Well exactly that dither and delay.

I don't like things stopping. I don't really like pauses. If there's not something happening in the studio, I do get very I like to keep things moving. Because that's the point where everybody can go down rabbit holes and start Logic can kick in. You know, I was saying about going on my gut earlier.

Everybody goes on their gut. Once you start to Let logic kick in with music, especially, well, I can't do that, I can't use that, I recorded that on a bad mic, or I took ages doing that, but that's no reason to keep something. If it's not right, it's not right, so as soon as you start to let logic kick in on music, that's for me, kills the vibe, as Sigrid says.

Um, so,  I don't like dither and delay.  I move pretty quick and musically and production wise I like to get the, the,  the essence of what's going on pretty quick. And, uh, and I know Roy does too as well so we, we tend to get somewhere really quick and, and not let anybody look down any rabbit holes. Cause you can start to, you know.

That's a, that's a good way of pointing it, rabbit holes is a good way of painting that picture of what you talk about. Stopping the process and not not allowing people to use logic. I quite like that And also if you know just do something else if something's not working Work on something else and then come back to and actually probably then when your guts telling you again.

Yeah, then that's when you'll know  What to do usually if I don't listen to a mix for about three or four days I'll play it or I'll play it in front of somebody else How weird is that when you play a mix in front of somebody else, do you hear it differently? Yeah, always. I don't quite understand the psychology of that, but I know that it works, and I immediately know what's wrong with it.

It's too fast, it's too slow, it's too that needs to come up, the vocal's not loud enough, there's no yeah. I agree. It's not right yet, it's not finished, I don't However, whatever I thought when I was on my own, I immediately know. So, having not listened to something for a few days is another one as well.

Leave it, just leave it. Why force something? It's music. We have that luxury, don't we, nowadays, with the computer. We have that, I mean, obviously, in days gone by, you You went in at 10 in the morning. Very true. And you could not leave the studio until it was  In brackets, finished. Very true. Maybe that's why we don't get so many crazy late nights anymore, because we can actually stop and work the night a few days later.

Yeah, get a bit more civilised. Yeah, a total recall, and you know, we used to have to, well, not me, but I know I did for a while, writing all the settings down on all the delay, it'd never come back the same.  Oh my goodness, yeah, taking photos of the, you know, of all the,  uh, all the settings on all the delays and reverbs and But, you know, those days are I mean, some people still do that.

And there is a magic in that. You know, that's what we did and it's done and that's it. We did a mix and that's it. For sure, whatever and sometimes there is great work come out of that because you know, you have to be right Yeah, maybe that's the other flip side is that well, it's not making choices Isn't it having it's like having eight tracks as opposed to 800.

Yeah, you've got to make that choice Haven't you absolutely and some of the but you know, my early days of recording was on a Tascam Porter studio Do you remember the four track cassette? Yeah And I listened back to some of that stuff and it sounds great for what it was and you had to make decisions like you Bass and drums you had to bounce on a one track  Beatle style, you know.

So you had to make those decisions, and that's what it is, and you had no choice later. So sometimes you had to get it right, and I think there is a thing of actually, you have to make decisions, even in these days of a thousand tracks possibilities. It's about the music, not about the technology. The technology is the enabling. 

Oh, that's the other thing, I hate technology getting in the way of something.  If I'm trying to get something set up and it's just not working, I just get so frustrated. So you just go straight on to something else. It's like, no, this is not working, I'll come back to that. Yeah, yeah, because that's the worst.

That's the rabbit hole. Yeah, it is. Isn't it? You're losing it, especially when you're writing. I'll get something down, even if it's on a voice note or whatever, because, great example, that, uh, song we wrote with Aurora, All Is Soft Inside, it's called. She started on the thumb piano.  We came up with the, wrote the song with her, went for lunch, Recorded her voice the melodies on my phone, which I still have I found it the other day came back from lunch And she sang something totally different and I remember going but that's not what you sang earlier That's not as good as what you and luckily I'd record it on my phone and she was like, oh, yeah, you're right I was recording and that even on the phone That's amazing song and and and we wouldn't have had that we'd have forgotten it and thank goodness because it's just a great song Yeah, my favorite things I've ever written really.

Yeah record everything all the time like we're recording this  Oh, yeah, we are. Did you press record? Yeah, we are recording, yeah. Oh, thank goodness. Don't have to do all that again. Yeah, should we  go for one now? Yeah. I think that's a lovely way to end it. Tim, thanks for your time on Mixbus. Absolute pleasure.

Great to see you. Cheers.  Thank you for listening, and be sure to check out the show notes page for this episode where you'll find further information along with web links and details of all our other episodes. And just before you go, let me point you to the Sound on Sound forward slash podcasts website page where you can explore what's playing on our other channels. 

This has been a Mixbus production by me, Kevin Paul, for Sound On Sound.