00;00;06;09 - 00;00;14;25 Unknown Welcome to the Making Sense of MarTech podcast, where we interview leaders and put them in hotseat. I'm Jacqueline Friedman, founder of monarch and global head of advisory for the MarTech weekly. 00;00;14;25 - 00;00;18;04 Unknown Today we're going deep on something most people only whisper 00;00;18;04 - 00;00;31;04 Unknown about the gatekeeping and old school consulting models that distort how enterprises build their martech stacks. And it's not a small problem. BCG found 70% of digital transformations fall short of their objectives, 00;00;31;04 - 00;00;36;22 Unknown which explains why the, quote unquote, help turns into permanent engagements for the foreseeable future. 00;00;36;22 - 00;00;41;27 Unknown Gartner forecasts worldwide IT spending will hit $5.43 trillion this year. 00;00;41;27 - 00;00;44;29 Unknown And so the cost of getting this wrong compounds really quickly, 00;00;44;29 - 00;00;47;24 Unknown Accenture song alone is a $20 billion business, 00;00;47;24 - 00;00;57;25 Unknown and martech is projected to grow from 131,000,000,000 in 2023 to 215,000,000,000 in 2027. So the cost of these forever engagements really add up very quickly. 00;00;57;27 - 00;00;59;01 Unknown And so, to be clear, 00;00;59;01 - 00;01;00;09 Unknown me saying all of this is 00;01;00;09 - 00;01;02;05 Unknown not to say all consultancies are bad, 00;01;02;05 - 00;01;18;23 Unknown but it is about the incentives, the structure, the capability transfer and how quickly support becomes dependency. And so we have a special guest today who has lived through this from the inside and now helps teams fix it. In this episode, we're lifting the curtain and asking, what would more tech look like if 00;01;18;23 - 00;01;20;08 Unknown practitioners, not 00;01;20;08 - 00;01;21;25 Unknown gatekeepers, built it? 00;01;21;25 - 00;01;22;18 Unknown So first up, 00;01;22;18 - 00;01;24;13 Unknown a little bit about our guest, Satya 00;01;24;13 - 00;01;25;29 Unknown Upadhyay. 00;01;25;29 - 00;01;35;19 Unknown Saget brings over 15 years of experience leading transformation across brands including ANZ Bank, Citibank, Bankwest, NRMA and casinos. He's a 00;01;35;19 - 00;01;45;07 Unknown true and end practitioner, and he's known for bridging business architecture, campaign execution and systems integrations to solve real martech problems. It's so great to have you here. 00;01;45;07 - 00;01;46;00 Unknown Welcome. 00;01;46;00 - 00;01;46;28 Unknown Thank you. Exactly. 00;01;46;28 - 00;01;47;12 Unknown Pleasure to 00;01;47;12 - 00;01;48;29 Unknown There we go. 00;01;48;29 - 00;01;53;02 Unknown I'm excited to have you. So let's dive in with a few rapid fire questions to get us started. 00;01;53;02 - 00;01;55;12 Unknown What was the first martech tool you ever used? 00;01;57;25 - 00;02;05;19 Unknown Unico was one of the utopians of campaign management tools. That was later bought by IBM. And now it's actually with head sales is now called Hazel unica. 00;02;05;21 - 00;02;10;04 Unknown Oh, man. Yep. That's quite the acquisition journey for it. 00;02;12;06 - 00;02;15;06 Unknown number of phases of acquisition in the last 15, 15 years. 00;02;15;06 - 00;02;19;11 Unknown Yes. All right. What is one martech myth you wish would just die today? 00;02;19;11 - 00;02;34;11 Unknown I'd love to answer that, everyone. Thank you. Given a staggering numbers from BCD to Accenture song to delight. Martech is not complex. It's actually quite simple. And we'll talk about it. How do we actually create simplicity in market today? 00;02;34;28 - 00;02;39;13 Unknown That's music to my ears because it is complex. But the beauty is in simplicity. 00;02;39;21 - 00;02;39;26 Unknown Yeah. 00;02;40;06 - 00;02;41;11 Unknown All right. What 00;02;41;11 - 00;02;45;06 Unknown is one small change you wish every marketing team would make tomorrow? 00;02;45;06 - 00;02;57;06 Unknown I think focusing on governance and marketing operations would really leap forward. Campaign execution, orchestration, decisioning, transformation programs beyond technology. 00;02;57;06 - 00;03;00;15 Unknown I wholeheartedly agree. Without that core 00;03;00;15 - 00;03;05;28 Unknown operational component, you can't scale. And you can't do what you want as quickly as you want. So, 00;03;05;28 - 00;03;11;29 Unknown I'm a big fan of that. All right. Last but not least, something we ask everyone. Who is someone you admire professionally or personally? 00;03;12;17 - 00;03;18;25 Unknown So professionally, if you are in the martech space, if you're not following Scott Ritter, the father of modern, modern technology, you're actually lagging 00;03;18;25 - 00;03;20;10 Unknown Oh, yeah. 00;03;20;10 - 00;03;24;03 Unknown one you get a lot of insights from him following him. And 00;03;24;03 - 00;03;30;14 Unknown there's a rule in Archi, you know, we had, you know, you know, history, showed the great and I follow him. 00;03;30;14 - 00;03;34;02 Unknown And because I get inspired by him in a lot of things that he's done in Indian 00;03;38;19 - 00;03;39;08 Unknown Oh, wow. 00;03;39;08 - 00;03;42;06 Unknown is a legacy, heritage and history. 00;03;42;06 - 00;03;42;28 Unknown I love that. 00;03;42;28 - 00;03;58;03 Unknown All right, let's set the stage and talk about how we're going to fix this forever model. So many companies leverage. So one reason why this model thrives is organizations can tell you what they spent, but not what capability 00;03;58;03 - 00;04;05;00 Unknown they got out of it. So when the scoreboard is vague, the engagement just never ends. And you don't know what the final winner is. 00;04;05;02 - 00;04;08;20 Unknown And ultimately, you're kind of a loser if you're on the brand side. In my eyes, 00;04;08;20 - 00;04;10;05 Unknown and that 00;04;10;05 - 00;04;22;13 Unknown should be the exact opposite of what's happening. This is we're supposed to champion you the brand. And so I would love to hear from your perspective what does the forever model look like in practice? And what are the telltale signs? 00;06;15;01 - 00;06;17;16 Unknown Sounds expensive. 00;06;18;10 - 00;06;33;03 Unknown if you look at so there's two things you talk about from an expense perspective, because they come to charge you an arm and a leg. And you can do that at a fraction of the price yourself. The downside of you not being able to do that is that you don't have those capabilities. So what you have basically in the 00;06;33;03 - 00;06;35;01 Unknown Exactly. 00;06;43;15 - 00;06;50;26 Unknown Yeah, that's, I think one of the primary drivers of why I became a consultant was to empower the team. Because I don't want to be there 00;06;50;26 - 00;06;52;24 Unknown forever. I want to have 00;06;52;24 - 00;07;01;27 Unknown over the knowledge and train them up so they can oversee it. Because they're going to do a better job than anyone else. Ultimately, over the long run, there's might need some help along the way. 00;07;02;25 - 00;07;03;06 Unknown get some 00;07;03;06 - 00;07;10;13 Unknown pointers. Okay, so you've seen both sides inside banks and also as a chief marketing technology officer, why 00;07;10;13 - 00;07;17;20 Unknown do so many enterprise teams default to these external consultancies instead of building those internal capabilities and resources? 00;08;40;10 - 00;08;47;29 Unknown That makes sense. And I guess if we were to look at it from the ideal state of the in and out consulting model. Like, what does that actually look like? And how is that even possible? Maybe. 00;10;55;08 - 00;10;59;21 Unknown Would you say that's by design or it is just. It happens. 00;11;00;02 - 00;11;01;14 Unknown It just happens. 00;11;01;14 - 00;11;16;02 Unknown so the question would be that what steps do we need to ensure that that doesn't just happen by default. And we are able to actually have a smooth transition, which means that again, because if you look at a transformation project, when 00;11;16;02 - 00;11;18;28 Unknown do you involve your internal teams? And if your 00;11;18;28 - 00;11;27;03 Unknown Right. 00;11;27;03 - 00;11;28;16 Unknown roadmap, what's the vision, what we are 00;11;58;12 - 00;12;00;17 Unknown within our internal teams. If 00;12;00;20 - 00;12;01;15 Unknown Yeah. 00;12;01;15 - 00;12;17;01 Unknown put the effort and energy in training, upskilling our external teams, they basically can learn that faster, you know? So if you talk about that scale, that accelerator, that best practices, that rigor and governance, we should be able to be clear by internal teams to drive that as well very, very quickly. 00;12;17;01 - 00;12;24;17 Unknown Yeah, that makes sense. It's really like defining, helping versus dependency. And, like, which one do you actually need? 00;12;24;17 - 00;12;25;09 Unknown Yeah. 00;12;25;09 - 00;12;25;27 Unknown And I guess 00;12;25;27 - 00;12;31;11 Unknown to kind of dig deeper into talking about the tech and ridding potentially of the gatekeepers. 00;12;31;11 - 00;12;33;29 Unknown there is an interesting component that in 00;12;33;29 - 00;12;43;17 Unknown 2014, speaking of Scott Brinker, he co-published a Harvard Business Review article that predicted the rise of the chief marketing technologist. 00;12;43;20 - 00;12;44;20 Unknown But then 00;12;44;20 - 00;12;45;00 Unknown analyst 00;12;45;00 - 00;12;50;21 Unknown frameworks and vendor logic took the wheel. And this is where we're at. So 00;12;50;21 - 00;12;57;16 Unknown one, I'm curious what your thoughts on that article, but also, as someone who has helped shape architecture strategy from the outside in, 00;12;57;16 - 00;13;04;02 Unknown how do you see firms like Gartner or Forrester influencing client decisions, and how often do they have the right answer? 00;13;06;28 - 00;13;07;17 Unknown The spicier 00;13;07;17 - 00;13;09;02 Unknown the better. That's that's the 00;13;09;02 - 00;13;12;10 Unknown right answer. 00;13;23;04 - 00;13;23;28 Unknown That's correct. 00;13;23;28 - 00;13;24;12 Unknown That's rather 00;13;34;16 - 00;13;39;22 Unknown know, the nomination and the people's title very often, at least in Australia, you've only got a few 00;13;39;26 - 00;13;43;01 Unknown Yeah. Not yet. 00;13;46;04 - 00;13;51;03 Unknown at it, who was responsible for that. And I've been fortunate. And that's why it's good when I'm talking with them. 00;13;51;05 - 00;14;06;15 Unknown I talk as a practitioner have having experience in all of these different areas and pockets. So it actually erupts from strategy and architecture and strategy and architecture teams always look at Gartner and Forrester. So there are a number of reasons 00;14;06;26 - 00;14;08;08 Unknown I tried. 00;14;30;05 - 00;14;37;06 Unknown they're saying, but they don't really see. Is that an operational fit for your organization? 00;14;37;08 - 00;14;39;00 Unknown Yes. 00;14;50;15 - 00;14;57;02 Unknown ability to execute at enterprise. The world is enterprise and scale. You know, you don't see this means you don't 00;15;28;16 - 00;15;31;13 Unknown Yeah. 00;15;31;13 - 00;15;31;26 Unknown Yeah. 00;15;31;26 - 00;15;40;24 Unknown All those requirements sometimes get thrown out the window. And oftentimes beyond just procurement, the golf game that makes that decision. And that's not the right answer. 00;15;40;28 - 00;15;41;20 Unknown That's right. So 00;15;47;09 - 00;15;51;03 Unknown Yes, it definitely does. And I guess to that point, like 00;15;51;03 - 00;15;59;02 Unknown we've highlighted some of the downsides. But like what is the ultimate downside of treating these analyst frameworks as gospel as the singular answer. 00;16;11;16 - 00;16;16;07 Unknown instead of your organizational readiness. Right. And I've seen many 00;16;28;22 - 00;16;39;01 Unknown but when I dig deep into it. So the first question and again strategy and architecture, hey, let's look at Gartner what the different types of loyalty solutions. And I said look, I think are three different types of loyalty solutions. 00;16;39;03 - 00;16;47;20 Unknown You've got to play. Then you've got the hybrid and then you've got managed services and then the different capabilities in that. But then when I spoke with the business, 00;17;04;03 - 00;17;13;18 Unknown Well, if you have a customer communication email and as soon as platform to start off with that does the job. Why would you like to spend $1 million onto a loyalty platform 00;17;13;18 - 00;17;15;27 Unknown What do you mean? It's just throw away $1 00;17;15;27 - 00;17;17;12 Unknown million. Why not? 00;17;17;12 - 00;17;21;26 Unknown is to get your engagement communication out with your members and build loyalty. 00;17;21;28 - 00;17;23;18 Unknown Once you've got some runs on the board, 00;17;23;18 - 00;17;24;22 Unknown then you can start looking at 00;17;24;22 - 00;17;27;10 Unknown and that's how you start having tech that coming in. 00;17;27;14 - 00;17;28;07 Unknown Oh, yeah. 00;17;47;28 - 00;18;05;08 Unknown well, I'm lagging behind. So I also need to have that. So it's, you know, one following the other without really understanding. Again you know what you look at my team's capability, the process maturity that we've got, the integration effort that's needed in and the overall ecosystem that I operate in 00;18;05;08 - 00;18;07;05 Unknown what I'm trying to provide value to my customer. 00;18;07;05 - 00;18;07;16 Unknown Right. So 00;18;28;27 - 00;18;32;13 Unknown that's the insurance policy that people take, to manage it. 00;18;32;13 - 00;18;34;24 Unknown Again, it's controversial, but that's 00;18;35;03 - 00;18;35;13 Unknown It. 00;18;35;13 - 00;18;44;12 Unknown It's a controversial. It's just an echoing of. No one gets fired for buying IBM. Now it's. No one gets fired for buying Salesforce. No one gets fired for buying Adobe. 00;18;44;12 - 00;18;45;16 Unknown And 00;18;45;16 - 00;18;46;21 Unknown it's concerning. 00;18;46;21 - 00;18;47;22 Unknown To your point, 00;18;47;22 - 00;18;51;21 Unknown yes, it's helpful to reference what these 00;18;51;21 - 00;18;55;15 Unknown conglomerates are saying of these platforms. However, 00;18;55;15 - 00;18;58;16 Unknown where's the use case for you? What are the capabilities you need? 00;18;58;16 - 00;19;01;28 Unknown What does your team provide? What are your team's own technical 00;19;01;28 - 00;19;08;21 Unknown debt? Existing like that is something people forget to think about. No new platform is going to 00;19;08;21 - 00;19;13;12 Unknown fix every problem if you continue to let it inherit your existing problems 00;19;13;15 - 00;19;16;09 Unknown I think that's the that's the biggest problem that we've got, 00;19;19;04 - 00;19;25;02 Unknown basic question that we need to ask ourselves is that why are we investing in a new platform? 00;19;25;02 - 00;19;25;23 Unknown Yes. 00;19;25;23 - 00;19;28;24 Unknown what are the capabilities? What are the things that 00;19;28;24 - 00;19;37;00 Unknown we wanted in the previous platform that we could not get out of the previous platform, as a result of which we need a new platform. 00;19;37;12 - 00;19;38;09 Unknown It surprises me 00;19;38;09 - 00;19;39;24 Unknown how few can answer that. 00;19;39;29 - 00;19;44;07 Unknown Right. And the other bold question is that what are the 00;20;00;11 - 00;20;05;05 Unknown You mean a lift and shift? Migration isn't the answer. Every single time. What? 00;20;08;18 - 00;20;20;01 Unknown if you're just doing a lift and shift? And I've seen this time and again like let's take an example, you've got Salesforce right. And you build campaigns in Salesforce. And tomorrow you want to build 00;20;58;19 - 00;21;02;18 Unknown what did that fundamentally change? Right. So 00;21;02;18 - 00;21;03;05 Unknown It's a good 00;21;03;05 - 00;21;04;20 Unknown question. 00;21;26;12 - 00;21;33;14 Unknown Yes. Preach. 00;21;33;20 - 00;21;40;14 Unknown Yes. And I think that's the missing question often. How will this change add value for our customers? 00;21;40;14 - 00;21;41;14 Unknown And 00;21;41;14 - 00;21;42;29 Unknown it's often overlooked. 00;21;42;29 - 00;21;44;12 Unknown Yeah, because if you look at the 00;21;48;23 - 00;21;49;24 Unknown reality is that 00;22;04;15 - 00;22;08;00 Unknown Oftentimes it's. What are the costs of not doing it? 00;22;13;12 - 00;22;14;08 Unknown Exactly. 00;22;14;08 - 00;22;15;06 Unknown completely agree. 00;22;15;06 - 00;22;24;21 Unknown the way you framed it kind of makes me think of, honestly, like, high school or middle school, where it's like, oh, but this person has X, and it's almost peer pressure to 00;22;24;21 - 00;22;25;01 Unknown follow 00;22;25;01 - 00;22;33;16 Unknown along and not be a leader and figuring out what you need, what your own personal identity would like to wear. If we're making it so simple as 00;22;33;16 - 00;22;34;18 Unknown clothing or attire. 00;22;34;18 - 00;22;42;09 Unknown And it's very fascinating. It's like, oh, but this person has an iPhone. I want an iPhone, when in reality maybe like Android and customizing it more and 00;22;42;09 - 00;22;48;06 Unknown there's nothing wrong with either. It's just a matter of what fits the bill for the requirements you 00;22;48;06 - 00;22;48;28 Unknown have. 00;22;48;28 - 00;22;51;07 Unknown I was just so. That's such an interesting 00;22;52;05 - 00;22;55;26 Unknown And to your point, like, you know, I'm an organization, I always want to sell cross-sell. 00;22;55;26 - 00;22;59;03 Unknown Right. But I'm an organization that doesn't need to sell. 00;23;04;01 - 00;23;13;22 Unknown not marketing based, right? Is can be service. Let us have that right. And I was looking at because I'm watching events a lot of like you know NZ I work with bank where Citibank and looked at a few things. 00;23;13;22 - 00;23;20;21 Unknown So I was looking at what are the different types of communication that needs to be sent back to a customer that I'm not related 00;23;20;21 - 00;23;23;14 Unknown Yeah. What are those? Transactional, operational, 00;23;23;14 - 00;23;25;28 Unknown noncommercial messages. And there's a lot. 00;23;34;00 - 00;23;35;07 Unknown Yeah. 00;23;52;28 - 00;23;59;18 Unknown Yeah. Minute one marketing minute two compliance and emergency service and mint for transactional. 00;23;59;21 - 00;24;00;02 Unknown The 00;24;41;02 - 00;24;41;06 Unknown Yeah. 00;24;41;06 - 00;24;47;24 Unknown Without a doubt. This approach to strategy architecture is really the practitioner led alternative. I think 00;24;47;24 - 00;24;52;20 Unknown you've really honed in on it and are referring to. And I guess I'm curious, before we dive into 00;24;52;20 - 00;24;56;02 Unknown kind of the greater industry, you alluded briefly that, 00;24;56;02 - 00;24;57;24 Unknown enterprise software 00;24;57;24 - 00;25;07;18 Unknown is the only option in the Gartner and for other realms. I'm curious why, from your perspective, smaller, more agile vendors don't make it into the report's. 00;25;11;01 - 00;25;14;26 Unknown Because to get into the Gartner and the Forrester, 00;25;14;26 - 00;25;19;05 Unknown they inclusion actually requires a bit of money. It requires scaled. 00;25;19;16 - 00;25;25;16 Unknown You mean it's pay to play what I say indirect pay meant, 00;25;25;16 - 00;25;26;22 Unknown but. 00;26;34;20 - 00;26;36;11 Unknown now. There are smaller vendors, 00;26;36;11 - 00;26;42;09 Unknown They can actually solve your problem better than the bigger vendors because they 00;26;42;12 - 00;26;43;29 Unknown Yep. 00;26;43;29 - 00;26;44;21 Unknown that solve 00;26;58;01 - 00;27;13;17 Unknown Right. But again, because they don't meet those criterias, they're not in that list. And as a result, they are invisible to the procurement team because the procurement team remember what I said earlier and strategy and architecture, look at any 00;27;23;01 - 00;27;24;01 Unknown Right. 00;27;24;23 - 00;27;28;24 Unknown this word called prompted an unprompted brand awareness. 00;27;29;19 - 00;27;30;09 Unknown I think 00;27;37;11 - 00;27;43;14 Unknown Whereas, you know, the smaller vendors are basically the unprompted awareness people that they need bit of love and affection 00;27;43;14 - 00;27;51;27 Unknown in terms of how they're, you know, visibility can be created in, in strategy and architecture team, in the procurement teams. 00;27;51;27 - 00;27;52;26 Unknown You've nailed it. Yeah, 00;27;52;26 - 00;27;58;12 Unknown I love talking about the elephant in the room, because I feel like so few are scared to poke that bear. 00;27;58;12 - 00;27;59;25 Unknown To mixed metaphors. 00;28;04;02 - 00;28;08;15 Unknown Yeah. 00;28;08;15 - 00;28;16;26 Unknown important. And it's time for the maturity of martech to really start having practitioners view of people who've had the experience of 00;28;16;26 - 00;28;26;13 Unknown running capabilities, ecosystems on the ground and talking what really works on the ground and below the ground, rather than talking 30,000ft above. 00;28;26;13 - 00;28;27;09 Unknown Agreed. And that's a, 00;28;27;09 - 00;28;31;14 Unknown think, the requirement for understanding use cases. Every company has a different need, 00;28;31;14 - 00;28;32;29 Unknown and there 00;28;32;29 - 00;28;51;28 Unknown is no one size fits all solution, no matter what. All in suite you go for. It's not going to solve all of your needs. And so it's really a philosophical, organizational question of do we go all in on one thing because it's easier from a procurement perspective, if we are able to simplify contracts and those types of things, or do we actually, to your point do 00;28;51;28 - 00;29;01;14 Unknown point solutions where it's a little bit more modular, a little more Tetris, but you're able to plug and play in the way your specific needs are and, you know, 00;29;01;14 - 00;29;01;26 Unknown invest 00;29;01;26 - 00;29;07;00 Unknown more heavily in what's your unique assets and traits and capabilities. So 00;29;07;00 - 00;29;11;10 Unknown it's a philosophical question ultimately. And I find it really fascinating just how 00;29;11;10 - 00;29;12;19 Unknown deep it can be. 00;29;12;19 - 00;29;18;02 Unknown It's so much more than just like, oh, this was on the Forrester wave. This was on the Magic Quadrant. 00;29;18;08 - 00;29;19;12 Unknown it's so much more than that. 00;29;19;12 - 00;29;21;12 Unknown that's a conversation for another guy. You know, 00;29;21;12 - 00;29;27;05 Unknown Best of breed. An all in one and composable. And how do you decide that? And and again. Yeah. So. 00;29;27;05 - 00;29;28;27 Unknown There's a lot of suite fatigue, that is 00;29;28;27 - 00;29;30;12 Unknown for sure. 00;29;31;00 - 00;29;53;25 Unknown And a quick word from our sponsor. Has your company gone all in on a large marketing suite but struggled to implement or see value from the investment? You're not alone. Our sponsor, high Touch, analyzed conversations with over 50 enterprise teams on large marketing suites and found that 79% report frustrations with high costs, low innovation, growing complexity, and often requiring specialized teams just to operate them. 00;29;53;26 - 00;30;11;28 Unknown They're sharing those findings in a live webinar on February 12th, where they'll walk us through the patterns are seeing and how some organizations are slowly updating their martech stacks. If this is something you've been thinking about, join the live session to get the full report. Register today at high touch.com/sweet fatigue. And now back to the episode. 00;30;11;28 - 00;30;17;01 Unknown All right, so taking a step back to, like, really thinking about the industry at large in this, this blueprint 00;30;17;01 - 00;30;20;26 Unknown It's been over a decade since Scott Brinker. Original article in the Harvard Business Review 00;30;20;26 - 00;30;23;18 Unknown defining what a chief marketing technologist is. 00;30;23;18 - 00;30;25;10 Unknown And I don't think we've 00;30;25;10 - 00;30;26;17 Unknown it. I mean, both 00;30;26;17 - 00;30;27;21 Unknown the title is not very 00;30;27;21 - 00;30;28;23 Unknown common, but also 00;30;28;23 - 00;30;40;28 Unknown the presence is not understood across the board. And so I guess if you could define what this role is today, I'd love to hear that. And also like what are organizations getting wrong about it and why is it not being recognized? 00;32;01;16 - 00;32;02;05 Unknown Correct. 00;32;58;26 - 00;32;59;09 Unknown Yeah. 00;33;13;04 - 00;33;13;17 Unknown Very much 00;33;13;17 - 00;33;14;00 Unknown so. 00;34;28;06 - 00;34;38;07 Unknown are better than monologue based interviews. Ask a question what's the so the way to interview candidates in this role also needs to change. 00;34;38;07 - 00;34;39;07 Unknown Agreed. 00;34;51;05 - 00;34;56;23 Unknown requires a again have a different style and different way of working to get that person out. 00;34;56;23 - 00;35;06;06 Unknown Because what that person is doing is that it's actually mimicking an engineering mindset, a strategic mindset, and an operational mindset and trying to bring all that together. 00;35;06;06 - 00;35;16;25 Unknown And in that what they're struggling is that where why press the levers, move? Do I show my strategies skills more, or do I show my integration skills more? 00;35;18;12 - 00;35;22;22 Unknown not, no one has all the skill sets. 00;35;22;24 - 00;35;23;10 Unknown So this is 00;35;23;10 - 00;35;24;06 Unknown Imagine 00;35;24;06 - 00;35;25;21 Unknown that. 00;35;26;04 - 00;35;31;09 Unknown I'm not a very large team in my in my last role at NZ, right, I had 75 people. I had 00;35;31;09 - 00;35;31;21 Unknown the 00;36;15;12 - 00;36;15;25 Unknown Yeah. 00;36;15;25 - 00;36;25;04 Unknown campaigns were built, what the challenges were from a technology data integration. Then they've morphed into transformation projects, and they've actually, you know, that lift and shift 00;36;25;04 - 00;36;30;19 Unknown work that they've done. So they exactly know when you go from platform to platform way, what were the requirements? 00;36;30;19 - 00;36;47;18 Unknown How do you map them through traceability? All that skills comes in. And then gradually a time now that we start looking at vendors. So why did we evaluate vendor. Right. When do we I don't need Gartner. I exactly know I had these deficiencies in my product. And I'm looking at this new capability 00;36;47;18 - 00;36;51;25 Unknown and I need this. And will I get that or will I not get that? 00;36;51;27 - 00;36;58;25 Unknown And am I going forward or am I going backwards. So you see the practitioner view starts coming in. Sorry, I took a long time to answer that question. Both. 00;36;59;07 - 00;36;59;18 Unknown No, 00;36;59;18 - 00;37;00;15 Unknown it's. 00;37;00;15 - 00;37;04;13 Unknown It's a great answer. Just to kind of recap, some of the three lines I heard 00;37;04;13 - 00;37;07;26 Unknown You you mentioned three different kind of pillars of what type of, 00;37;07;26 - 00;37;10;08 Unknown minds are thinking. I think you're actually 00;37;10;08 - 00;37;13;23 Unknown you want a marketer in that you know how to speak to your audience. You're not a bird in a 00;37;13;23 - 00;37;14;00 Unknown cage. 00;37;14;06 - 00;37;15;08 Unknown You know exactly the 00;37;15;08 - 00;37;23;01 Unknown filtration system with which to translate. And I consider mops and martech the chief translators of 00;37;23;01 - 00;37;32;01 Unknown all of the back end and the primary consultants who can pivot based off of who they're speaking to and the level of complexity that makes sense. 00;37;32;01 - 00;37;38;12 Unknown absolutely. 100%. So there's another word like. I'll take the example from the biological sciences. You know, catalyst. The 00;37;39;11 - 00;37;41;28 Unknown in a reaction is to speed 00;38;16;20 - 00;38;24;11 Unknown Yes. 00;38;24;14 - 00;38;31;10 Unknown Exactly. 00;38;49;05 - 00;38;50;04 Unknown Exactly. 00;39;10;02 - 00;39;15;15 Unknown Yeah. 00;39;15;15 - 00;39;21;05 Unknown doing that with AI and that's another, you know, the autonomous marketing in terms of everything is going to happen. 00;39;21;08 - 00;39;24;21 Unknown So that's why this role, this chief marketing 00;39;24;21 - 00;39;33;28 Unknown technology officer or marketing professionals has to really evolve. They need to be given the right respect, really understand what they are bringing in, 00;39;33;28 - 00;39;34;20 Unknown Yes. 00;39;34;20 - 00;39;41;12 Unknown capability needs to change and reevaluated and constantly be evaluated based on the organization made. 00;39;41;12 - 00;39;50;25 Unknown Agreed. It makes me think of. I've yet to see it done. But I see this role as the nexus and translation core of everything. 00;39;51;09 - 00;39;51;25 Unknown I see it as 00;39;51;25 - 00;39;56;14 Unknown separation of church and state. You're able to fully recognize the problems. 00;39;56;14 - 00;39;58;15 Unknown Unbiased. Just you 00;39;58;15 - 00;40;02;17 Unknown recognize what is and isn't working and recommend solutions that 00;40;02;17 - 00;40;07;00 Unknown you partner with the non-technical and the technical to make it make sense. 00;40;07;02 - 00;40;08;27 Unknown But also, I think the true 00;40;08;27 - 00;40;15;07 Unknown decision for an organization that has yet to really come into play is this person is on the ops team, is 00;40;15;07 - 00;40;20;17 Unknown under the CEO who operationalize is the business, whether that's tech or marketing. That's just 00;40;20;17 - 00;40;27;17 Unknown ultimately your stakeholders and partners, but those are your business unit you have to work with to make them work together. 00;40;27;24 - 00;40;29;02 Unknown And I have yet to see it 00;40;29;02 - 00;40;31;17 Unknown come to fruition. I'm hoping it does one of these days. 00;40;31;17 - 00;40;42;02 Unknown Now, I really, I think, and I'm quite. I'm very passionate about this. And I think one of the things when I think about this role, you know, one of the chief criteria is that you people should be looking at passion because this is not something 00;40;42;04 - 00;40;42;28 Unknown Yes. 00;40;42;28 - 00;40;46;12 Unknown like, hey, I think this is evolving. This is a cool thing. 00;40;46;12 - 00;40;48;16 Unknown I want to be part of this. This is I'm 00;40;48;16 - 00;40;49;16 Unknown passionate about it. 00;40;49;16 - 00;40;50;01 Unknown Yeah. 00;40;50;01 - 00;40;51;09 Unknown you know, I live and breathe 00;40;52;22 - 00;40;54;16 Unknown I'm doing just enough, you know, the little knowledge that 00;40;54;16 - 00;40;59;14 Unknown I have, I can have some conversation with different types of people and bring people together. 00;41;02;04 - 00;41;04;28 Unknown because the stakeholders don't know what they don't know. 00;41;05;00 - 00;41;10;00 Unknown Right? And everyone's actually operating in that zone. They know what they know. 00;41;10;00 - 00;41;10;05 Unknown This 00;41;10;07 - 00;41;11;18 Unknown Yeah. Of course. Everyone's in 00;41;11;18 - 00;41;13;03 Unknown their own silo. No matter the 00;41;13;03 - 00;41;15;20 Unknown context of what we're talking about. 00;41;15;20 - 00;41;19;05 Unknown it actually exposes them to the art of possible. 00;41;19;09 - 00;41;19;21 Unknown Yep. 00;41;19;21 - 00;41;20;06 Unknown so that 00;41;35;27 - 00;41;37;05 Unknown Yes. 00;41;45;04 - 00;41;47;20 Unknown is to connect a problem to a solution. 00;41;47;20 - 00;41;54;17 Unknown Well, and to your point, that awareness has to be the truth. You can. You can be aware to problems. But if it's not, actually, the true problem 00;41;54;17 - 00;41;56;02 Unknown is like, is revenue declining 00;41;56;02 - 00;42;02;04 Unknown because there's macroeconomic conditions or is it because we're overspending discounts or both? 00;42;02;04 - 00;42;03;19 Unknown You know, there's a lot of 00;42;03;19 - 00;42;05;22 Unknown different components where you have to be brass tacks. 00;42;05;22 - 00;42;08;00 Unknown And sometimes those are hard conversations to have 00;42;08;12 - 00;42;10;04 Unknown where you're the truth teller. You know, 00;42;10;04 - 00;42;11;09 Unknown the fortune teller. 00;42;11;09 - 00;42;11;25 Unknown actually 00;43;00;28 - 00;43;02;13 Unknown Okay. So to double click on to that. 00;43;02;19 - 00;43;18;19 Unknown How does one balance strategic vision like that competitor in that one example with operational control. Because if you get too visionary sometimes operationally you can't keep up and vice versa. 00;43;23;27 - 00;43;28;16 Unknown Yes. 00;43;28;18 - 00;43;35;03 Unknown If are the best ideas. But if you can't make it real. 00;43;35;05 - 00;43;36;17 Unknown Yes. 00;43;44;09 - 00;43;45;06 Unknown Yeah. 00;43;55;16 - 00;44;08;21 Unknown the smaller building blocks. And do it one by one, fragment by fragment. Which means that get your basics right. Most of the time we basically want to get everything, but we forget the fundamentals, the basics that basically lay the foundation. And 00;44;08;21 - 00;44;09;17 Unknown What do you mean? 00;44;09;17 - 00;44;13;25 Unknown I thought I could fix that. 00;44;13;25 - 00;44;24;29 Unknown Technology is an enabler. An AI is another piece of technology. So A is equal to b, b is equal to c. So is the a is equal to c. So again I is also an enabler. It 00;44;25;02 - 00;44;25;16 Unknown I'd push 00;44;25;16 - 00;44;31;00 Unknown you. I would say technology is the catalyst. If and only if you have your ducks in order. 00;44;44;23 - 00;44;45;19 Unknown Dependency. 00;44;45;19 - 00;44;46;00 Unknown dependency. 00;44;52;01 - 00;44;52;19 Unknown Yes. 00;45;07;22 - 00;45;08;05 Unknown Yes. 00;45;08;05 - 00;45;08;27 Unknown the operating 00;45;17;10 - 00;45;30;18 Unknown lead Us needs to go on and off side and start thinking and chalking this in terms of what are the real challenges that we have across people process data in tech, and you can't solve everything on day one. 00;45;30;18 - 00;45;35;03 Unknown So, you know, how do we solve that? Right? So now if you look at the other way, you 00;45;44;19 - 00;45;46;09 Unknown that's another topic for a conversation 00;45;47;00 - 00;45;50;29 Unknown It's. It's not easy. But the thing I think of is actually vulnerability. You 00;45;50;29 - 00;45;52;14 Unknown can't have 00;45;52;14 - 00;45;54;29 Unknown this without being willing to be 00;45;54;29 - 00;45;56;04 Unknown vulnerable. 00;45;56;04 - 00;46;06;03 Unknown that's that's one skill set that leaders needs to have is being able to express vulnerability in the open and that's I don't know. 00;46;06;18 - 00;46;07;01 Unknown We've 00;46;07;01 - 00;46;13;16 Unknown lost a lot of that, unfortunately. And I would also say empathy. Do. But you have to have some vulnerability in 00;46;13;16 - 00;46;15;02 Unknown order to be empathetic. Accept 00;46;15;02 - 00;46;15;07 Unknown causing. 00;46;15;19 - 00;46;16;22 Unknown think, you know, for 00;46;28;15 - 00;46;29;18 Unknown Yes. 00;46;35;06 - 00;46;36;14 Unknown Yes. 00;46;48;23 - 00;46;53;14 Unknown the confusing beauty of that is sometimes there's more than one answer, and so it's almost a 00;46;53;14 - 00;47;01;16 Unknown blind faith. Sometimes you can have an educated guess and it might be wrong. However, it was the right solution with the 00;47;01;16 - 00;47;02;16 Unknown variables and requirements 00;47;02;16 - 00;47;03;08 Unknown of time. 00;47;03;12 - 00;47;04;01 Unknown and this is again, 00;47;04;01 - 00;47;04;13 Unknown you know, 00;47;30;28 - 00;47;39;09 Unknown rather than reflecting back and thinking, what were the decisions that were made at that time point in time, 00;47;44;26 - 00;47;45;08 Unknown Yes. Those 00;47;45;08 - 00;47;50;17 Unknown are my favorite questions to ask of like. Yes. This is the current state. How did we get here? 00;47;50;17 - 00;47;51;07 Unknown Walk 00;47;51;07 - 00;47;52;05 Unknown me through it. 00;47;52;05 - 00;48;03;01 Unknown Because it could be possible that yesterday I only had $100,000 to invest on this capability. And I chose this product because that suited 00;48;03;01 - 00;48;08;22 Unknown my bill of 100. And I can only do that procurement for that period of time. We realized that 00;48;20;07 - 00;48;26;09 Unknown a capability and skill sets and competency that the team to get to that target stage. So this is 00;48;26;13 - 00;48;27;17 Unknown Exactly. 00;48;47;11 - 00;48;48;01 Unknown Yes. 00;48;48;01 - 00;48;51;21 Unknown know again we come back to that interview style of what the skill sets are. 00;49;07;16 - 00;49;08;11 Unknown And you can get the best out 00;49;08;19 - 00;49;09;22 Unknown Yeah. Our own 00;49;09;22 - 00;49;11;13 Unknown humanity has changed. 00;49;11;13 - 00;49;15;06 Unknown it almost feels like what we've been talking about is a unicorn that 00;49;15;06 - 00;49;23;00 Unknown I. 00;49;26;23 - 00;49;27;12 Unknown You could maybe 00;49;27;12 - 00;49;34;27 Unknown get, like, a centaur or a Pegasus or like a Falkor, but you can't maybe fully get unicorn. You can get close. 00;50;17;02 - 00;50;18;00 Unknown Yeah. 00;50;18;00 - 00;50;21;22 Unknown the unicorn can be created. But the 00;50;21;22 - 00;50;22;16 Unknown Correct. 00;50;22;16 - 00;50;23;27 Unknown need to be patient. 00;50;36;12 - 00;50;37;03 Unknown Always. 00;50;54;16 - 00;50;55;16 Unknown Yes. 00;50;59;23 - 00;51;02;08 Unknown maybe consultants are the right answer. 00;51;02;08 - 00;51;03;23 Unknown Maybe 00;51;03;23 - 00;51;05;23 Unknown it's not a singular person. Maybe it's an 00;51;05;23 - 00;51;06;15 Unknown entire 00;51;06;15 - 00;51;07;26 Unknown set of teams. 00;51;19;06 - 00;51;21;20 Unknown at speed, with agility 00;51;21;20 - 00;51;23;10 Unknown where there's no retakes. 00;51;29;09 - 00;51;29;24 Unknown how old 00;51;35;12 - 00;51;37;21 Unknown Depends on who you ask. 00;51;39;29 - 00;51;42;25 Unknown solutions were that 2025 50,000 plus. 00;51;42;25 - 00;51;45;23 Unknown So even from 2010, 2011, 15 years. 00;51;45;23 - 00;51;48;02 Unknown so estimates become Guesstimates, 00;51;48;02 - 00;51;48;26 Unknown Correct. 00;51;49;00 - 00;51;49;21 Unknown So our 00;52;10;16 - 00;52;22;04 Unknown I mean the skill set for what you need this skill set to work. So you need the skill set. We've already got all of that. We can package it together for you. So, you know, we started off are they good or bad. Yeah. Good. You know the 00;52;22;26 - 00;52;27;16 Unknown Though the catalyst potentially to get things started. So you can find 00;52;27;16 - 00;52;29;12 Unknown your very own catalyst. 00;52;29;12 - 00;52;30;18 Unknown example I like that. You 00;52;32;19 - 00;52;36;14 Unknown Yes. And I'm sure there's a scientific term for all of those things. 00;52;36;14 - 00;52;38;14 Unknown And I don't know it. 00;52;38;14 - 00;52;39;29 Unknown I'm curious. I'm going to look it up while we're 00;52;39;29 - 00;52;48;13 Unknown talking. 00;52;48;13 - 00;52;55;26 Unknown essentially there's promoters. There's an irony there in terms of promoter promotion, who knows? But there's components that just 00;52;55;26 - 00;52;58;09 Unknown keep that positive feedback loop and positive, 00;52;58;09 - 00;53;00;12 Unknown catalyst loop that 00;53;00;12 - 00;53;02;18 Unknown it's hard to find, hard to do. 00;53;02;20 - 00;53;03;23 Unknown But when done right, 00;53;03;23 - 00;53;05;25 Unknown you don't even need to worry about ROI. Yeah, 00;53;05;25 - 00;53;11;11 Unknown that's that's where the magic happens. Or what I like to call a little bit of the the marketing woowoo. There's just 00;53;11;11 - 00;53;14;11 Unknown it starts singing and everything is working great. 00;53;15;02 - 00;53;18;05 Unknown what would your first three moves be if you 00;53;18;05 - 00;53;27;06 Unknown were building from scratch and you were entering into a mature enterprise with a significant amount of tech debt and existing platforms? 00;53;27;06 - 00;53;27;28 Unknown It's like, you know, 00;55;14;23 - 00;55;22;17 Unknown Oh, yeah. 00;55;25;20 - 00;55;26;15 Unknown Yeah. 00;55;26;15 - 00;55;33;05 Unknown prioritization where the marketing manager is looking at it. This is not about campaign forward causation, which is the campaign teams looking at. 00;55;33;08 - 00;55;37;28 Unknown This is the prioritization where marketing in it in a flacks 00;55;38;07 - 00;55;38;24 Unknown Yes. It's. Where 00;55;38;24 - 00;55;42;06 Unknown does that ownership? Where is responsibility? It is a 00;55;42;06 - 00;55;43;24 Unknown tricky mind 00;55;43;24 - 00;55;44;27 Unknown mess. 00;55;44;27 - 00;55;51;19 Unknown the CMO says I want when the CIO says I want to win the race, who wins and how how do. So these are the 20 00;55;51;22 - 00;55;52;01 Unknown Oh, 00;55;52;01 - 00;55;52;15 Unknown yeah. 00;55;53;11 - 00;55;53;16 Unknown because 00;55;53;16 - 00;55;57;14 Unknown you're not talking about this is not an operational view lens. 00;55;57;14 - 00;56;09;20 Unknown This is a strategic, visionary operational execution. Bringing that transformation capability, that integration, that execution rigor that needs to be brought in. So you got to understand that. And 00;56;10;01 - 00;56;10;17 Unknown You got to get 00;56;10;17 - 00;56;12;02 Unknown through the prickly bits. 00;56;12;02 - 00;56;14;24 Unknown Otherwise, you wouldn't need this on. 00;56;14;24 - 00;56;22;24 Unknown do and when you ask these pointed question, what happens is that you understand the operational reality. Again, you know what's happening on the ground. 00;56;23;00 - 00;56;29;17 Unknown And this is not about being wrong. All right? This is all about, hey, I'm really trying to understand the lay of the land as 00;56;41;01 - 00;56;42;09 Unknown you what the bad things are. 00;56;42;11 - 00;56;49;17 Unknown And if you don't have a recollection and understanding of the bad things are, you will not know where the improvements happen. So before you go on improvement. So that's 00;56;49;23 - 00;56;53;12 Unknown first layer I would like look at. The second. I would say, you know 00;56;53;12 - 00;56;54;19 Unknown how you do Bill. 00;56;54;19 - 00;56;56;05 Unknown So if you look at why these do 00;56;56;05 - 00;56;59;15 Unknown these bad things happen and why do they 00;57;07;29 - 00;57;10;03 Unknown is required to fix it. So 00;57;10;12 - 00;57;11;01 Unknown Right. What 00;57;11;01 - 00;57;12;16 Unknown can we automate? What can 00;57;12;16 - 00;57;27;16 Unknown we. Yeah. 00;57;29;01 - 00;57;32;28 Unknown kettle of fish that we need to basically solve for data governance and vendor management 00;57;55;00 - 00;58;04;03 Unknown at? Who are new vendors? You imagine a, you know, company, you're working in a company you can't release a vendor for 12 months because the cycle time to one more vendor is 12 months. 00;58;04;05 - 00;58;11;10 Unknown In 12 months, the market changes your market, your business requirements change in you. You've got a leasing bucket. You have an acquisition problem you want to solve that 00;58;11;10 - 00;58;11;16 Unknown And 00;58;11;16 - 00;58;15;01 Unknown we wonder why Gartner and Forest are always behind. 00;58;15;09 - 00;58;17;04 Unknown Correct. So you got to look at so how do I bring 00;58;32;27 - 00;58;35;29 Unknown you know, doesn't allow people to do those changes. 00;58;35;29 - 00;58;38;11 Unknown So I would really create, 00;58;38;11 - 00;58;45;29 Unknown you know, a couple of I'll cover a set of people rather than saying, I want to do a proof of concept, I want to say 00;59;23;15 - 00;59;42;01 Unknown That makes sense. And I'm having a hard time kind of summarizing our entire conversation. Because it's meandered in a good way. It's. It's gone through all the pros, all the cons coming back to the pros and then reconsidering the cons. And, I guess for anyone who's listening in terms of how do we actually 00;59;42;01 - 00;59;47;20 Unknown navigate martech and the stack itself, the leadership challenges, 00;59;47;20 - 00;59;54;26 Unknown the three main takeaways that I'm gathering from this conversation that really try to summarize is first up is 00;59;54;26 - 00;59;55;10 Unknown on it. 00;59;55;13 - 01;00;02;14 Unknown You got to not only audit what existing consulting engagements exist for, signs of dependency or unclear value, but also audit your tech stack 01;00;02;14 - 01;00;04;03 Unknown and what's working and 01;00;04;03 - 01;00;14;18 Unknown what's not working. It'd be brass tacks about it. And then second, really challenge the standard reference architecture is by mapping out your business needs. First you need to know what your 01;00;14;18 - 01;00;16;00 Unknown primary goals are this year, 01;00;16;00 - 01;00;22;06 Unknown the next five years, and whether those are in line with what exists or what you're wanting to exist. 01;00;22;08 - 01;00;29;14 Unknown And then thirdly, really design to enable the roles internally. And that's including this chief marketing 01;00;29;14 - 01;00;48;15 Unknown technologist we've been referring to. And these operators on operate marketing operations and martech so that you can empower transformation and make it more than just day to day maintenance of those vendors. Because if you're going to have that Ferrari, you need to get tune ups, you need to get the premium, a lot of gas and need a really good driver for it. 01;00;48;29 - 01;00;50;03 Unknown ISO. 01;00;50;03 - 01;00;54;25 Unknown well, our last question is who is someone we should have on the podcast. 01;00;54;25 - 01;01;01;28 Unknown I've been in Australia. I've been working a lot with a guy by the name of Pam. He's the head of my ticket booth for. 01;01;01;28 - 01;01;04;00 Unknown Yes, I know Pavan very well. 01;01;15;28 - 01;01;17;15 Unknown technology needs to be bought. 01;01;17;17 - 01;01;17;22 Unknown But 01;01;18;03 - 01;01;18;15 Unknown Yeah. 01;01;18;25 - 01;01;20;05 Unknown practical, valid 01;01;20;05 - 01;01;22;17 Unknown way of defining what that needs 01;02;14;02 - 01;02;18;20 Unknown and I can help you understand. If you do these, these, these things will be better off. 01;02;18;20 - 01;02;31;22 Unknown But if you if you don't consider X, Y, and z, it will have ramifications in the future that you basically get that and ways of working will not be working. And you know, that's so I think that's one person you should be talking. 01;02;31;22 - 01;02;34;29 Unknown I wholeheartedly agree, and already talking to him 01;02;34;29 - 01;02;36;29 Unknown fairly often. 01;02;36;29 - 01;02;39;18 Unknown thank you so much, Satya, for coming on the podcast. 01;02;39;18 - 01;02;42;23 Unknown It's been an absolute pleasure. Where can folks find you? 01;02;44;12 - 01;02;45;18 Unknown Thank you so much. 01;02;45;18 - 01;02;46;27 Unknown Thank you. Thank you for having. 01;02;46;27 - 01;02;58;00 Unknown I.