WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:40.541 --> 00:00:40.771 CJ: All right. 00:00:40.771 --> 00:00:41.351 We're recording. 00:00:41.351 --> 00:00:43.755 We 00:00:44.921 --> 00:00:45.721 Duke: weeks in a row, 00:00:46.158 --> 00:00:48.561 CJ: and 00:00:54.011 --> 00:00:55.361 Duke: but what are we talking about today? 00:00:56.581 --> 00:00:57.211 CJ: do today. 00:00:57.211 --> 00:01:01.481 We're talking about how to win at service now without service. 00:01:01.481 --> 00:01:01.851 Now, 00:01:02.721 --> 00:01:04.841 Duke: and what do we mean by without service now? 00:01:05.591 --> 00:01:12.051 CJ: What we mean by that is there's so much stuff that happens off platform. 00:01:12.401 --> 00:01:15.731 That determines whether or not that's going to be successful, right? 00:01:15.751 --> 00:01:22.711 And not nearly enough time is paid to it and not time, effort, attention, right? 00:01:23.341 --> 00:01:27.081 Yeah, 00:01:27.236 --> 00:01:32.916 Duke: to like my time as a ServiceNow customer, as the owner of the 00:01:32.916 --> 00:01:39.696 product, , and what are the skills that allowed me to be successful versus. 00:01:40.051 --> 00:01:42.451 , some of the other instances that are not as successful. 00:01:43.751 --> 00:01:46.811 And there's a laundry list of stuff that we can talk about here. 00:01:46.811 --> 00:01:48.471 So anyways, that's the episode for today. 00:01:50.951 --> 00:01:52.221 CJ: no, no, it's not the end. 00:01:52.391 --> 00:01:52.821 Duke: No, no, no. 00:01:52.821 --> 00:01:53.141 I mean, 00:01:53.151 --> 00:01:53.561 CJ: start it. 00:01:53.711 --> 00:01:55.171 Duke: what we decided to talk about. 00:01:58.381 --> 00:01:58.991 , CJ: Duke, you're right. 00:01:59.021 --> 00:02:04.521 Ultimately I was prepared, , and creating service now success. 00:02:04.956 --> 00:02:09.016 Through a lot of the experience that I had in my career previous, right? 00:02:09.026 --> 00:02:12.546 And I took a lot of that experience and I applied it to the service 00:02:12.826 --> 00:02:15.316 ecosystem, but . I took the experience. 00:02:15.316 --> 00:02:17.766 That wasn't so much technical, which is weird, right? 00:02:17.766 --> 00:02:21.436 Because I've always been a very , technically oriented person. 00:02:21.651 --> 00:02:21.921 Right. 00:02:21.921 --> 00:02:22.921 Like I love the tech. 00:02:22.951 --> 00:02:25.401 I've always loved the tech since I was like six. 00:02:25.741 --> 00:02:28.881 I still refuse to buy a desktop off the shelf. 00:02:28.881 --> 00:02:30.341 I build all of them myself. 00:02:30.601 --> 00:02:35.611 I got home automation kicking off, but , I can't overlook that most of 00:02:35.621 --> 00:02:42.111 my ServiceNow success comes from the things that are not technical and that 00:02:42.141 --> 00:02:45.291 only slightly relate to the platform 00:02:46.026 --> 00:02:46.716 , Duke: I would agree. 00:02:46.766 --> 00:02:48.066 I didn't come up as a developer. 00:02:48.066 --> 00:02:49.586 I didn't even come up in infrastructure. 00:02:49.586 --> 00:02:51.999 I kind of . Stumbled into it by accident. 00:02:52.449 --> 00:02:53.329 I used to joke around people. 00:02:53.329 --> 00:02:59.409 I'm like the least it person in it, but some might argue that 00:02:59.409 --> 00:03:04.639 I've had a modicum of success in my 15 years of, of doing service. 00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:06.949 Now consulting, I've had a couple of successes in there. 00:03:07.414 --> 00:03:10.524 , and so it is beyond just , your technical ability to pick it up. 00:03:11.914 --> 00:03:17.484 I guess the first step on the journey, , is to demonstrate a high amount of agency. 00:03:18.304 --> 00:03:21.644 And by agency, I mean, this problem is my problem. 00:03:22.954 --> 00:03:28.244 Also , it's up to me to find the best thing to do versus it's up to me to 00:03:28.254 --> 00:03:30.124 be told what the best thing is to do. 00:03:30.904 --> 00:03:32.524 CJ: Ooh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 00:03:32.609 --> 00:03:35.609 Duke: low agency is like, somebody's got to tell me what to do and I'll do it. 00:03:35.649 --> 00:03:41.149 Low agency is, wait until I'm asked to provide my opinion on the best path. 00:03:42.344 --> 00:03:45.234 And if I'm not, then nobody will ever know. 00:03:46.324 --> 00:03:52.184 High agency is go out, find one or two or three solutions, and then bring it 00:03:52.184 --> 00:03:53.424 to the table with your stakeholders. 00:03:53.624 --> 00:03:56.084 Shout out to one of my former bosses, Roz Agee. 00:03:56.424 --> 00:03:57.364 I remember 00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:01.367 CJ: so 00:04:01.564 --> 00:04:02.654 Duke: HP OBSD admin. 00:04:03.784 --> 00:04:04.274 And. 00:04:04.894 --> 00:04:08.420 CJ: check 00:04:08.724 --> 00:04:09.924 Duke: You can't give me that answer. 00:04:09.974 --> 00:04:13.394 Go to your desk, think about it for 30 minutes and give me a 00:04:13.404 --> 00:04:14.984 better answer when you come back. 00:04:16.984 --> 00:04:20.114 Or, or I'd say is, you know, it could be done this way, but it's going 00:04:20.114 --> 00:04:22.894 to be like three months of work and she'd just be like, do better, Robert. 00:04:23.744 --> 00:04:24.584 Not in a mean way. 00:04:24.624 --> 00:04:24.874 Right. 00:04:24.874 --> 00:04:27.494 But she just like, she just knew that I was. 00:04:27.994 --> 00:04:29.704 Not putting my best effort into it. 00:04:29.704 --> 00:04:32.464 So she would say, , go to your desk and do better. 00:04:32.464 --> 00:04:35.114 And in an hour, come back and tell me, and inevitably I'd always 00:04:35.114 --> 00:04:36.844 think of two or three pathways. 00:04:37.044 --> 00:04:40.004 And often, , the second or third one that I picked was the better 00:04:40.004 --> 00:04:42.384 option, but , she taught me agency. 00:04:42.384 --> 00:04:43.614 Adopt this problem. 00:04:43.664 --> 00:04:47.164 , like you have to go to my bosses and tell them what's going to go on. 00:04:47.859 --> 00:04:48.949 CJ: It's so funny. 00:04:48.949 --> 00:04:51.359 So I'm going to go back, , to magic total service. 00:04:51.359 --> 00:04:52.299 That's two for a minute. 00:04:52.299 --> 00:04:57.469 And when I took that tool over, I'd done , like some windows scripting, like 00:04:57.479 --> 00:04:59.769 back in the DOS days to make my games run. 00:04:59.769 --> 00:05:03.459 That's where I was with like programming, but I took, , magic over 00:05:03.469 --> 00:05:07.459 because the team that ran it wasn't given at the time that we wanted 00:05:07.669 --> 00:05:09.429 them to do as the ops team, right? 00:05:09.429 --> 00:05:10.939 Because we own the service desk. 00:05:11.249 --> 00:05:13.859 And so it was important to us that tickets work well. 00:05:14.174 --> 00:05:17.324 And we were rolling change management and we needed that to work well too. 00:05:17.524 --> 00:05:21.384 , but I never run like an app like this before done any programming or whatever. 00:05:21.384 --> 00:05:24.554 , my boss's boss really said, Hey, , You want to take this thing over? 00:05:24.574 --> 00:05:25.574 It looks like you got time. 00:05:26.244 --> 00:05:28.334 I was like, , sure I'll do that. 00:05:28.664 --> 00:05:28.984 Right. 00:05:29.014 --> 00:05:31.334 And at the time, I'm a really techie guy. 00:05:31.364 --> 00:05:31.694 Right. 00:05:31.854 --> 00:05:34.034 And you know how techs think about tickets, right. 00:05:34.344 --> 00:05:38.984 , and they're giving me the ticketing system to now go in and run. 00:05:39.014 --> 00:05:40.774 And so I, it really took. 00:05:41.469 --> 00:05:43.469 A different mindset, right? 00:05:43.469 --> 00:05:46.809 I had to really change my mindset and start thinking about this, from 00:05:46.809 --> 00:05:49.599 a perspective of, okay, well, now you own the ticketing system. 00:05:49.999 --> 00:05:51.489 , how do you make that good? 00:05:52.339 --> 00:05:52.769 Duke: Yeah. 00:05:52.879 --> 00:05:55.789 CJ: And so like you said, that's the first step in agency, right? 00:05:55.789 --> 00:05:57.539 I own this platform now. 00:05:57.539 --> 00:05:59.249 Now I got to figure out , how do I make it work? 00:05:59.259 --> 00:06:02.759 , and I know the things that I hate about it , as a sysadmin or as an 00:06:02.759 --> 00:06:06.179 engineer or whatever, like, okay, so let me see if I can polish those 00:06:06.219 --> 00:06:07.579 edges, you know, and on and on. 00:06:07.749 --> 00:06:13.469 . But I think to your point, Duke, I was given the thing and told to make it work. 00:06:13.559 --> 00:06:17.419 And because I love a challenge and I'm never going to fail, right. 00:06:17.419 --> 00:06:19.349 I went off and figured out how to make it work. 00:06:19.639 --> 00:06:21.899 And, but I wasn't given instructions on that. 00:06:22.349 --> 00:06:25.389 And I wasn't given directions that there wasn't even a guide book. 00:06:25.389 --> 00:06:27.439 I don't even think we had an instruction manual, right? 00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:30.509 I don't think I had was a Yahoo group and we paid like for a week 00:06:30.509 --> 00:06:32.659 of week of time from a consultant. 00:06:32.709 --> 00:06:34.489 And it was all, you know, big out. 00:06:34.859 --> 00:06:39.299 And so I did, but what I learned from that is what we're going to talk about 00:06:39.299 --> 00:06:42.969 today, right, is that a lot of the success came from things that didn't 00:06:42.989 --> 00:06:44.489 actually take place in the system. 00:06:45.699 --> 00:06:47.009 Duke: And it all starts with agency. 00:06:47.009 --> 00:06:49.069 That idea that nobody's going to come to save you. 00:06:49.349 --> 00:06:51.169 Nobody's going to tell you how to get it done. 00:06:51.169 --> 00:06:52.159 It's your baby. 00:06:52.769 --> 00:06:54.099 You have to take a personal almost, 00:06:55.324 --> 00:06:57.054 ? CJ: Mac, can I tell you about that phrase? 00:06:57.054 --> 00:06:58.914 Nobody's coming to save you, right? 00:06:58.914 --> 00:07:06.364 Like, yeah, like, I live by it, right? 00:07:06.364 --> 00:07:09.914 And so many people who grew up where I grew up and found 00:07:09.914 --> 00:07:12.224 success also live by it, right? 00:07:12.224 --> 00:07:17.654 Because it's true, and you experience it for the truth that it is. 00:07:18.094 --> 00:07:20.894 And so, you don't have a choice. 00:07:21.214 --> 00:07:24.334 You can wait and what's gonna nothing happens, right? 00:07:24.334 --> 00:07:26.184 When it does come to nobody's come to save you. 00:07:26.184 --> 00:07:29.244 I really have internalized that and it's all about. 00:07:29.244 --> 00:07:31.064 What I need to do next then, right? 00:07:31.084 --> 00:07:34.724 If I'm the only person that's here, then I'm the only person that can do it. 00:07:35.779 --> 00:07:39.209 Duke: All right, beyond attitude, let's give them some solids to take with 00:07:39.344 --> 00:07:40.094 CJ: Yeah, no doubt. 00:07:40.599 --> 00:07:41.929 Duke: Okay, start now. 00:07:42.009 --> 00:07:45.489 Start writing down everything that you would consider a standard. 00:07:46.764 --> 00:07:47.364 CJ: Yes. 00:07:48.969 --> 00:07:51.289 Duke: Even if it's simple, like everybody thinks that we should 00:07:51.289 --> 00:07:53.259 have documentation for now. 00:07:53.319 --> 00:07:54.359 That can be your standard. 00:07:54.359 --> 00:07:58.009 We're going to have documentation, fill it out as you go, as you get 00:07:58.009 --> 00:08:01.349 more, but for all of you youngins in the space, if you ever get to the 00:08:01.509 --> 00:08:05.819 point where you're the owner of the instance or the customer relies more 00:08:05.819 --> 00:08:12.249 on you to give them the advice, like just start cataloging your opinions. 00:08:13.084 --> 00:08:16.044 On things like how many times have you heard somebody say best 00:08:16.044 --> 00:08:20.214 practices, but like, well, where'd you get that from your head? 00:08:20.294 --> 00:08:20.574 Right. 00:08:20.574 --> 00:08:23.424 Or, or, or somewhere else in your anatomy that we won't talk about, 00:08:25.324 --> 00:08:27.724 Actually, like how to, how to set up architectural standards, 00:08:28.184 --> 00:08:31.674 but you got to start somewhere and it's got to be on paper. 00:08:31.824 --> 00:08:34.614 Like you can't just pull this stuff out of your elbow at a moment's notice. 00:08:34.664 --> 00:08:36.414 So you got to start writing it down. 00:08:36.654 --> 00:08:42.904 And so just imagine again, you're the highest agency person for this instance. 00:08:43.114 --> 00:08:44.464 It success comes down to you. 00:08:44.464 --> 00:08:47.274 So you have to decide to what standard are we going to code, 00:08:48.684 --> 00:08:49.774 CJ: Right, how are you going to run it? 00:08:49.839 --> 00:08:51.939 Duke: And are we going to enforce that via instant scan? 00:08:51.949 --> 00:08:53.349 How are we using ATF? 00:08:53.649 --> 00:08:55.399 How are we using upgrade center? 00:08:56.219 --> 00:09:00.989 How are we moving update sets , from A to B to C, and also , if we have 00:09:00.989 --> 00:09:05.839 guests come in to develop for us, what are the expectations with them? 00:09:07.589 --> 00:09:10.459 Lord knows, like how many stories are there out there where we pulled 00:09:10.459 --> 00:09:13.209 in such and such a company to do something and they deployed some, 00:09:13.209 --> 00:09:17.359 updates sell that they built before and they just deployed it on our site. 00:09:17.854 --> 00:09:19.564 And it's all kinds of stuff we don't want. 00:09:19.574 --> 00:09:21.754 Like you got to have house rules. 00:09:21.754 --> 00:09:22.364 You know what I mean? 00:09:23.499 --> 00:09:27.919 , CJ: and you got to know that you got to have house rules, ? Because you may 00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:31.439 not know what the house rules should be, but if you know that you need 00:09:31.439 --> 00:09:32.929 them, you can go and find them out. 00:09:32.929 --> 00:09:33.024 Right? 00:09:33.024 --> 00:09:33.119 Right. 00:09:33.499 --> 00:09:33.919 Right. 00:09:34.079 --> 00:09:34.439 Bye. 00:09:34.884 --> 00:09:37.314 You know, like our podcast is a good place to figure out 00:09:37.314 --> 00:09:38.624 house rules, but not just us. 00:09:38.624 --> 00:09:38.794 Right? 00:09:38.804 --> 00:09:39.324 LinkedIn. 00:09:39.534 --> 00:09:41.614 It's a great spot to like the service community on. 00:09:41.614 --> 00:09:42.484 LinkedIn is amazing. 00:09:42.484 --> 00:09:46.874 The service now community service now community also amazing. 00:09:47.194 --> 00:09:48.604 There's a ton of info. 00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:50.629 But unless you don't you need it. 00:09:50.729 --> 00:09:52.029 You don't go looking for it. 00:09:52.539 --> 00:09:58.149 . So this is us telling you that you need to know that you need this info before you 00:09:58.149 --> 00:09:59.889 get to the point that you need the info. 00:10:00.374 --> 00:10:03.504 Duke: There's some really prodigiously large teams out there, but even 00:10:03.504 --> 00:10:08.244 small teams with one platform owner and three devs, there's still so 00:10:08.244 --> 00:10:09.824 much like, well, I do it this way. 00:10:09.824 --> 00:10:10.804 You do it that way. 00:10:10.834 --> 00:10:14.384 And bad stuff happens with that because there's just no governance to it. 00:10:14.394 --> 00:10:14.654 Right. 00:10:14.664 --> 00:10:17.444 Nobody said this is the way we do things consistently. 00:10:18.344 --> 00:10:21.414 Bob still likes to do legacy workflow, not flow designer. 00:10:21.434 --> 00:10:23.944 , and Jane is hip with flow designer. 00:10:23.954 --> 00:10:25.974 She's doing flow designer stuff like that. 00:10:26.284 --> 00:10:31.054 Somebody should have decided on a standard for that and integrated it with the team. 00:10:32.074 --> 00:10:33.684 It's not enough that you have the standards too. 00:10:33.684 --> 00:10:36.134 You got to communicate it out to the people that you're leading. 00:10:36.134 --> 00:10:37.194 Yeah. 00:10:37.244 --> 00:10:39.634 CJ: And then you also got to make sure that they that are used. 00:10:39.684 --> 00:10:43.464 , I got a client, we got a nice, , so peace right out there around something 00:10:43.524 --> 00:10:45.764 but the things that are getting built, we got to make sure that 00:10:45.764 --> 00:10:47.274 they get built according to the S. 00:10:47.274 --> 00:10:47.344 O. 00:10:47.344 --> 00:10:47.514 P. 00:10:47.514 --> 00:10:47.544 S. 00:10:47.614 --> 00:10:48.324 that are published. 00:10:48.654 --> 00:10:52.414 Otherwise, you just got documents on the shelf, and I think that part 00:10:52.414 --> 00:10:55.404 of it is also very important, right? 00:10:55.404 --> 00:10:58.444 It's like you know, that you needed the, , , architectural governance, right? 00:10:58.654 --> 00:10:59.884 The documentation S. 00:10:59.884 --> 00:10:59.964 O. 00:10:59.964 --> 00:11:00.254 P. 00:11:00.264 --> 00:11:00.334 S. 00:11:00.334 --> 00:11:03.834 You know that you need these things, ? Now you have to also ensure. 00:11:04.249 --> 00:11:06.279 , they're being put into practice, right? 00:11:06.279 --> 00:11:11.919 And you also need to keep communicating up and down why they're important so that 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:14.019 that buy in continues to be maintained. 00:11:14.349 --> 00:11:19.349 The last thing you really want to happen is for folks to say, well, I don't know 00:11:19.349 --> 00:11:24.469 why we spend an extra two hours doing things this way when I can shortcut 00:11:24.469 --> 00:11:29.389 it and save 90 minutes and management nodding their heads like, yeah, why 00:11:29.389 --> 00:11:31.309 are we spending an extra two hours? 00:11:31.309 --> 00:11:31.539 Right? 00:11:31.659 --> 00:11:34.599 Like, you need to proactively get in front of them to communicate 00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:36.639 what that two hours saves you. 00:11:36.789 --> 00:11:39.869 It saves you 200 hours down the road. 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:42.839 Like when your instance is jacked, it is those things where you have to be 00:11:42.839 --> 00:11:44.819 a good steward of the instance too. 00:11:45.029 --> 00:11:47.119 And , it's real life flesh avatar. 00:11:47.849 --> 00:11:52.259 Duke: man, I tell you what, I got a brand new metaphor For the whole 00:11:52.259 --> 00:11:56.699 idea where the customer says, don't have time for your stuff. 00:11:56.739 --> 00:12:02.119 Like, you have to get this app out for us, or, or you have to fix this app. 00:12:02.129 --> 00:12:04.679 But meanwhile, the house is burning down around you. 00:12:06.949 --> 00:12:07.199 Right? 00:12:07.589 --> 00:12:10.969 I've been on jobs where you come in and we want to deploy SPM. 00:12:11.109 --> 00:12:11.869 We want to do this. 00:12:11.869 --> 00:12:12.559 We want to do that. 00:12:12.559 --> 00:12:13.139 But you get there. 00:12:13.139 --> 00:12:16.209 It's just like, no, no, we got to put out all the fires first. 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:19.419 You can't even begin to think about something else to deploy right now 00:12:19.419 --> 00:12:24.689 because, okay, so here's the metaphor and aircraft carrier aircraft carrier. 00:12:24.689 --> 00:12:24.999 Right. 00:12:25.079 --> 00:12:27.129 No 00:12:27.164 --> 00:12:28.574 CJ: any Amish on aircraft 00:12:28.789 --> 00:12:29.929 Duke: Amish on the aircraft carrier. 00:12:30.614 --> 00:12:31.004 CJ: All right. 00:12:32.209 --> 00:12:35.109 Duke: Shout out to , my Amish metaphor, which I do every five episodes at 00:12:35.109 --> 00:12:38.719 least, but this metaphor is about aircraft carriers and aircraft 00:12:38.719 --> 00:12:43.109 carriers carry what super whiz bang. 00:12:43.509 --> 00:12:46.549 Like awesome jet fighter technology, right? 00:12:46.579 --> 00:12:48.969 We can force project anywhere we want in the world. 00:12:49.174 --> 00:12:52.424 . We can just impose our political influence wherever we want. 00:12:52.454 --> 00:12:53.504 Cause we got the jets. 00:12:54.704 --> 00:12:58.384 . And those jets are phenomenal pieces of technology. 00:12:58.384 --> 00:13:02.124 And they do their job extremely well, but if there's something 00:13:02.124 --> 00:13:04.914 wrong with the aircraft carrier, everybody's day is ruined. 00:13:06.134 --> 00:13:07.844 It's not this fighter jet here. 00:13:07.904 --> 00:13:08.954 Isn't going to be able to do his job. 00:13:08.984 --> 00:13:12.374 All fighter jets on that aircraft carrier can't do their job. 00:13:12.434 --> 00:13:16.124 And our political influence is gone out the window. 00:13:18.104 --> 00:13:21.944 And so if I was ever back in the saddle, heading up an instance that's the 00:13:21.944 --> 00:13:24.764 first thing I would do at a council is. 00:13:25.374 --> 00:13:29.954 talk about , the aircraft carrier metaphor, we have to keep the aircraft 00:13:29.954 --> 00:13:35.894 carrier in absolutely peak performance so that the fighter jets can do their job. 00:13:36.844 --> 00:13:37.644 CJ: Absolutely. 00:13:37.844 --> 00:13:40.054 And to take that and extend it into real life. 00:13:40.344 --> 00:13:43.544 , if your instance is not working, then your users can't use it, ? And if your 00:13:43.544 --> 00:13:47.554 users aren't using it, then, you got a whole lot of other problems, right? 00:13:47.614 --> 00:13:51.374 , including shadow it and things that are being captured in Excel 00:13:51.374 --> 00:13:53.854 that you never know about and never get the access, right? 00:13:54.074 --> 00:13:57.564 So, , maintain the instance, make sure that it works well, so 00:13:57.564 --> 00:13:59.864 that , your jets, your users, right? 00:13:59.864 --> 00:14:02.834 Can utilize it to get their job done. 00:14:03.534 --> 00:14:06.004 , Duke: I think linking it to something physical like that will show your 00:14:06.004 --> 00:14:10.924 stakeholders, how there is energy that must be put into that thing. 00:14:12.354 --> 00:14:13.064 CJ: Absolutely. 00:14:13.199 --> 00:14:15.829 Duke: carriers need fuel, which needs to be replenished. 00:14:16.129 --> 00:14:17.339 They need repairs. 00:14:17.349 --> 00:14:18.959 They need standard maintenance. 00:14:18.999 --> 00:14:19.799 A lot of it, 00:14:20.699 --> 00:14:25.089 so it's priming them to justify that there is time and energy that must be 00:14:25.089 --> 00:14:28.089 spent making sure this ship goes good. 00:14:28.089 --> 00:14:29.549 Shout out to , all my Navy friends out there. 00:14:30.329 --> 00:14:31.049 CJ: Absolutely. 00:14:31.729 --> 00:14:32.089 All right. 00:14:32.189 --> 00:14:34.909 Duke: well, I mean, but that kind of leads in that takes us right down the 00:14:34.909 --> 00:14:36.949 path into the stakeholder council, right? 00:14:37.529 --> 00:14:38.449 Who am I going to convince? 00:14:38.449 --> 00:14:39.439 The stakeholders. 00:14:40.229 --> 00:14:41.939 CJ: You have to convince the stakeholders, right? 00:14:41.939 --> 00:14:43.859 Or they need to convince you, right? 00:14:43.859 --> 00:14:47.769 Like the whole idea of it, ? Is that we, you've got people who know how the 00:14:47.769 --> 00:14:52.389 business works and they get to give you feedback on how the instance should work 00:14:52.389 --> 00:14:54.019 in the best way for the, , the business. 00:14:54.759 --> 00:14:56.689 Duke: Like, do you think a customer does that though? 00:14:56.689 --> 00:14:58.679 Like a, like a stakeholder, do 00:15:00.074 --> 00:15:02.054 CJ: Do I think that they represent the business or do 00:15:02.159 --> 00:15:05.759 Duke: they tell you anything about the platform? 00:15:07.314 --> 00:15:10.314 , CJ: yes, if you listen closely enough, do they tell me technical 00:15:10.324 --> 00:15:11.664 things about the platform? 00:15:11.864 --> 00:15:12.274 No. 00:15:12.864 --> 00:15:15.444 Do they tell me important things about the platform? 00:15:15.684 --> 00:15:16.214 Yes., 00:15:16.214 --> 00:15:18.274 my team doesn't use ServiceNow. 00:15:18.814 --> 00:15:20.504 Why doesn't your team use ServiceNow? 00:15:20.594 --> 00:15:23.014 Well, because we find that it's too slow. 00:15:23.564 --> 00:15:25.184 Okay, what's slow about it? 00:15:25.394 --> 00:15:27.144 Well, they just, it's just slow. 00:15:27.144 --> 00:15:27.424 Right. 00:15:27.424 --> 00:15:31.064 And so you get that treatment and sometimes that's not necessarily 00:15:31.064 --> 00:15:34.914 helpful, but if you listen really closely, you'll say, well, it 00:15:34.914 --> 00:15:36.304 just doesn't work for our process. 00:15:36.304 --> 00:15:37.054 What's your process? 00:15:37.054 --> 00:15:41.774 , we do ABC and then you go into ServiceNow and you realize , it's built for ABQ. 00:15:42.524 --> 00:15:46.984 And you try to figure out, so how do we build for ABQ when you do ABC? 00:15:47.164 --> 00:15:49.404 And then the stakeholder says, well, nobody ever asked me.. 00:15:49.454 --> 00:15:54.634 , and so how many people, do you know, in tech who actually understand the 00:15:54.634 --> 00:15:58.244 roles of all the folks business, right? 00:15:58.424 --> 00:16:04.734 Not a whole lot, but often they build things for those roles, for those people 00:16:04.734 --> 00:16:06.364 in the business without consulting them. 00:16:06.859 --> 00:16:10.099 So sometimes you hear this is slow and then sometimes you hear this 00:16:10.099 --> 00:16:13.959 doesn't work for me , and you don't necessarily know why and they don't know 00:16:13.959 --> 00:16:17.219 why until you really listen carefully and then you figure out, well, nobody 00:16:17.309 --> 00:16:18.649 actually asked them how they work. 00:16:19.009 --> 00:16:22.479 And so what we deliver to them is what we thought they need it and turns out they 00:16:22.479 --> 00:16:24.239 don't . They need something different. 00:16:24.529 --> 00:16:25.509 And then we insist it. 00:16:25.819 --> 00:16:27.139 That we built it correctly, right? 00:16:27.139 --> 00:16:28.069 Because now we're defensive. 00:16:28.339 --> 00:16:31.979 We spent three months building this thing out for this team, 00:16:32.269 --> 00:16:33.589 and they don't want to use it. 00:16:33.609 --> 00:16:36.799 And we're like, well, this is how you all work, right? 00:16:36.799 --> 00:16:38.779 Like this is what, and nobody ever asked them. 00:16:38.779 --> 00:16:41.689 We all just spent time telling them, well, you need to conform to the tool. 00:16:41.729 --> 00:16:42.729 Well, they won't. 00:16:43.669 --> 00:16:43.969 Right. 00:16:44.489 --> 00:16:45.229 Let's be real. 00:16:45.289 --> 00:16:46.199 And look, I don't know. 00:16:46.199 --> 00:16:49.949 I feel like this thing is something that folks need to hear. 00:16:50.179 --> 00:16:56.529 They will not conform to your mal implemented processes. 00:16:58.709 --> 00:16:59.569 And that's what I mean. 00:16:59.569 --> 00:17:01.089 The things that are off platform. 00:17:01.424 --> 00:17:04.474 That help your service down implementation, right? 00:17:04.634 --> 00:17:06.724 They won't, they just won't use it. 00:17:07.249 --> 00:17:08.749 Duke: Are you talking about platform stuff? 00:17:08.749 --> 00:17:12.989 Are you talking about Oh, we deployed XYZ process badly. 00:17:14.244 --> 00:17:16.944 CJ: I'm yes, both though Duke, right? 00:17:17.074 --> 00:17:20.714 Like , if it's , SPM process, and we deployed that and the PMO, 00:17:20.874 --> 00:17:21.514 it's looking at this thing. 00:17:21.524 --> 00:17:22.454 Like, we don't work this way. 00:17:22.519 --> 00:17:26.459 And we said, well, this is the way the system is set up. 00:17:26.459 --> 00:17:27.459 You got to use it this way. 00:17:28.029 --> 00:17:29.229 And they're like, well, we don't work this way. 00:17:29.229 --> 00:17:29.779 It doesn't work for us. 00:17:29.889 --> 00:17:31.489 I want to say, well, we can't do anything about it. 00:17:31.689 --> 00:17:33.229 Do you think that they're still using it? 00:17:33.789 --> 00:17:35.169 They're not using it right. 00:17:35.169 --> 00:17:38.969 Like they're going to spin up a company card and go buy whatever third 00:17:38.969 --> 00:17:42.819 party shadow it software and their team is now using that but you've 00:17:42.829 --> 00:17:46.479 won the argument and you've told them, , this is the way that it works. 00:17:47.179 --> 00:17:49.379 But you didn't actually win the users, right? 00:17:49.379 --> 00:17:50.649 Because they're not on the platform. 00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:52.219 That's what I mean about it. 00:17:52.269 --> 00:17:55.439 you've got to make sure that you're listening to the feedback and that 00:17:55.929 --> 00:18:01.339 you are convincing and getting buy in instead of dictating and telling. 00:18:01.339 --> 00:18:02.759 Duke: I would loop that around. 00:18:03.369 --> 00:18:05.089 There is a necessity for listening. 00:18:05.989 --> 00:18:08.539 And I think that's where a lot of people find that they. 00:18:09.164 --> 00:18:11.814 start naturally like, Oh, we're going to tell you how, what 00:18:11.814 --> 00:18:12.854 we need out of this thing. 00:18:13.284 --> 00:18:16.594 And your job is to listen, but you also need to like circle back and 00:18:16.594 --> 00:18:22.604 take leadership of it and guide your stakeholders to the goals, right? 00:18:23.304 --> 00:18:26.024 And we did a whole episode on this as well. 00:18:26.034 --> 00:18:27.214 This will be in the description below. 00:18:27.509 --> 00:18:29.359 Leading a stakeholder council. 00:18:30.269 --> 00:18:30.849 CJ: Yes. 00:18:30.999 --> 00:18:31.239 Right. 00:18:31.259 --> 00:18:31.679 Leading. 00:18:32.499 --> 00:18:36.549 , Duke: and if there's one thing this will do for you, which saved my hide so 00:18:36.549 --> 00:18:38.329 many times, boil it all down to this. 00:18:39.169 --> 00:18:40.984 It shows them that it's not. 00:18:41.434 --> 00:18:42.864 You versus them. 00:18:43.614 --> 00:18:45.424 When it comes to , when is this thing going to get done? 00:18:45.474 --> 00:18:48.234 , how come this hasn't got a lot of, it's not you versus them. 00:18:48.454 --> 00:18:51.964 It's them versus everybody else in the business that wants something. 00:18:54.919 --> 00:18:55.719 CJ: that's important, 00:18:55.834 --> 00:18:56.254 Duke: Yeah. 00:18:56.454 --> 00:18:56.894 Yeah. 00:18:57.729 --> 00:19:04.019 CJ: Because it allow them to weaponize their political capital to get priority. 00:19:04.019 --> 00:19:05.949 If that is the will of the business, 00:19:07.674 --> 00:19:08.694 Duke: We've all been there, right? 00:19:08.694 --> 00:19:11.534 The business is saying we need encryption on this table that 00:19:11.534 --> 00:19:13.524 could possibly contain PII, right? 00:19:13.534 --> 00:19:15.514 You got the business telling you that, but then you got somebody else 00:19:15.514 --> 00:19:18.494 who's like, the 15th customization to this report this week. 00:19:20.004 --> 00:19:20.504 CJ: right? 00:19:20.609 --> 00:19:24.359 Duke: It's not until like your stakeholders see each other and 00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:26.549 realize what's going on, that they get the idea that like, 00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:30.679 okay, there's , a prioritization that must happen amongst peers. 00:19:31.869 --> 00:19:35.269 CJ: Yeah, there's a road map and look, the road map can change. 00:19:35.459 --> 00:19:37.859 . But we all got to agree that the road map needs to change. 00:19:37.859 --> 00:19:38.579 Often. 00:19:38.784 --> 00:19:41.054 What happens is, you know, comes a black box, right? 00:19:41.054 --> 00:19:43.184 And everyone thinks that is dictated in the road map. 00:19:43.184 --> 00:19:47.024 And sometimes is dictating the road map absent business input. 00:19:47.034 --> 00:19:49.164 And that's what this Dakota Council does. 00:19:49.164 --> 00:19:52.534 It gives you the business input to the road map, and it gives you the 00:19:52.544 --> 00:19:55.504 transparency to so that everybody's on the same page about the road map. 00:19:55.914 --> 00:19:56.204 Right? 00:19:56.204 --> 00:19:57.634 So decisions need to be made. 00:19:57.974 --> 00:19:58.984 They can be made. 00:19:59.369 --> 00:20:02.839 With the full buy in and support of everyone in the room, instead of 00:20:02.849 --> 00:20:06.359 being dictated by it, who typically has the least amount of political 00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:08.269 power in any of these conversations. 00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:08.679 Duke: Yeah. 00:20:10.199 --> 00:20:10.309 All right. 00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:11.399 You got anything else? 00:20:12.579 --> 00:20:14.849 CJ: Cross pollination Duke, right? 00:20:15.049 --> 00:20:21.129 There's always something somewhere else that can help you be 00:20:21.489 --> 00:20:24.379 successful, creative, or innovative. 00:20:24.969 --> 00:20:29.939 In the vertical that you're in all the service now, right? 00:20:29.969 --> 00:20:33.189 Service doesn't exist in a vacuum, your business doesn't exist 00:20:33.189 --> 00:20:34.659 in the back room in a vacuum. 00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:39.379 So you should constantly be learning, not just about the technical aspects 00:20:39.379 --> 00:20:44.269 of the platform, not just about how it does things, but how everybody 00:20:44.269 --> 00:20:49.019 else is doing things and then find those things that can translate. 00:20:49.639 --> 00:20:54.209 And bring them in when you start crossing ideas together, then that's 00:20:54.209 --> 00:20:55.629 when you start to get some magic. 00:20:55.849 --> 00:20:56.219 Right? 00:20:56.249 --> 00:21:02.369 And a lot of the things that I've been able to give my clients value from 00:21:02.839 --> 00:21:08.289 are things that wouldn't necessarily be out of the box technical. 00:21:08.289 --> 00:21:11.789 Like we start talking about processes and then I start, , going down the 00:21:11.789 --> 00:21:15.419 rabbit hole with them on things around like organizational change management 00:21:15.419 --> 00:21:19.789 and organizational, , psychology and how, , the processes that they've 00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:23.289 built aren't necessarily aligning with how people tend to think. 00:21:23.499 --> 00:21:25.569 And what is the culture of your organization? 00:21:25.569 --> 00:21:26.869 Is this a meeting culture? 00:21:27.109 --> 00:21:29.319 Is this a culture where people come into the office? 00:21:29.419 --> 00:21:30.349 Is everyone remote? 00:21:30.869 --> 00:21:34.149 Did you design your processes in the system to account for those things? 00:21:34.959 --> 00:21:39.049 . So when you start getting into just the other skills and talents and 00:21:39.049 --> 00:21:44.019 knowledge that you have in different subject areas and bringing them into 00:21:44.059 --> 00:21:46.129 the service now discussion, right? 00:21:46.149 --> 00:21:51.739 Allows you to accelerate and elevate what you can do for your clients. 00:21:52.659 --> 00:21:53.189 That makes sense. 00:21:53.189 --> 00:21:54.399 Duke and my own face on this. 00:21:54.499 --> 00:21:54.889 Duke: Yeah. 00:21:54.909 --> 00:21:58.529 I think a specific one, which is going to be the category I 00:21:58.529 --> 00:21:59.759 was going to go to next anyway. 00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:02.779 Is , learn how to manage work, 00:22:05.229 --> 00:22:07.069 manage it, not, not do it. 00:22:08.069 --> 00:22:09.209 You got to do the work too. 00:22:09.209 --> 00:22:13.439 A lot of cases, but learning how to manage it is what's really 00:22:13.439 --> 00:22:14.939 going to take it to the next level. 00:22:14.939 --> 00:22:17.909 And there's teams that are under managed. 00:22:18.479 --> 00:22:22.249 And I would say that shows up in , nobody seems to be working 00:22:22.249 --> 00:22:23.319 on the most important thing. 00:22:23.319 --> 00:22:29.979 Nobody knows what's going when, and then there's overmanaged where you're 00:22:29.989 --> 00:22:32.979 micromanaged to the point where we still don't know any of that stuff 00:22:32.989 --> 00:22:36.589 because we're too busy answering every other of the hundred questions today. 00:22:36.589 --> 00:22:38.779 Yeah. 00:22:41.774 --> 00:22:43.954 CJ: and we need to dive in on that. 00:22:43.954 --> 00:22:47.324 , nobody knows what's the most important thing and nobody 00:22:47.324 --> 00:22:48.814 knows what's going when right? 00:22:48.864 --> 00:22:51.254 , you and I have had some really good conversations about that. 00:22:51.304 --> 00:22:54.154 Offline about some of the stuff that you've built around 00:22:54.154 --> 00:22:55.604 performance analytics and S. 00:22:55.604 --> 00:22:55.814 L. 00:22:55.814 --> 00:22:56.074 A. 00:22:56.084 --> 00:22:56.204 S. 00:22:56.544 --> 00:22:59.964 And how it's just a lot more, prescriptive, right? 00:22:59.984 --> 00:23:02.314 Because you know how to manage work. 00:23:02.564 --> 00:23:04.684 And so you're helping them manage to work through the things that you built. 00:23:05.114 --> 00:23:08.594 My point is, is that, yeah, I think that's a good episode for, for the 00:23:08.949 --> 00:23:14.329 Duke: Well, let's get real specific on a couple of things I would say you have 00:23:14.329 --> 00:23:18.239 to understand where your work comes from and you can't plan a hundred percent. 00:23:18.269 --> 00:23:20.439 You can't even plan 75%. 00:23:20.489 --> 00:23:23.319 A lot of your stuff is going to come in as incidents and let's just assume 00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:25.049 that most of them are legit incidents. 00:23:25.049 --> 00:23:25.829 These are failures. 00:23:25.829 --> 00:23:26.959 We didn't anticipate. 00:23:27.239 --> 00:23:27.899 It's just work. 00:23:27.899 --> 00:23:30.149 We didn't know about that is now present. 00:23:31.174 --> 00:23:32.804 And that is always going to follow you. 00:23:32.834 --> 00:23:35.054 And it's going to be a large portion of your work. 00:23:35.054 --> 00:23:39.794 So some of your work is going to be just getting incidents done, but some 00:23:39.794 --> 00:23:41.134 of your work is going to be requests. 00:23:41.354 --> 00:23:44.884 And you can't just go into like strictly request delivery mode, like 00:23:44.934 --> 00:23:49.694 someone asked therefore do otherwise you're going to jeopardize what you've 00:23:49.704 --> 00:23:51.264 built with your stakeholders, right? 00:23:51.834 --> 00:23:55.204 With this roadmap, whatever you want to call it, this plan. 00:23:56.209 --> 00:23:56.619 CJ: Right. 00:23:56.994 --> 00:23:59.404 Duke: Whether you use the SPM module or not, you really got to 00:23:59.414 --> 00:24:01.094 think about demand management. 00:24:01.214 --> 00:24:02.484 How do we. 00:24:02.949 --> 00:24:06.439 Even contend with the stuff that has been asked for, let alone the 00:24:06.439 --> 00:24:08.129 stuff we're going to do, right? 00:24:09.464 --> 00:24:10.614 CJ: Well, yeah, right? 00:24:10.624 --> 00:24:13.384 Like, and that doesn't that like loop back around to stakeholder council? 00:24:14.099 --> 00:24:17.379 , Duke: it does, but the stakeholder council is what I think is like the strategic 00:24:17.379 --> 00:24:21.469 layer versus this is , the very tactical layer, we are in the trenches every day. 00:24:21.469 --> 00:24:22.449 What do we get done? 00:24:22.499 --> 00:24:24.209 Versus , , with the stakeholder council. 00:24:24.209 --> 00:24:27.949 , those are gonna be VPs and AVPs and we don't want to bug them about, Hey, which 00:24:27.949 --> 00:24:29.279 of these two requests should we be doing? 00:24:29.539 --> 00:24:29.939 No, 00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:34.029 this is the tactical level, like day to day. 00:24:34.029 --> 00:24:34.529 What are we doing? 00:24:34.619 --> 00:24:36.889 , and , it goes back to the standards. 00:24:37.284 --> 00:24:41.964 But you really have to have a governance about how the work 00:24:41.974 --> 00:24:43.564 gets through a demand process. 00:24:43.794 --> 00:24:44.574 Simple as it is. 00:24:44.604 --> 00:24:46.484 Again, it doesn't have to be ServiceNow SBM. 00:24:46.734 --> 00:24:50.754 It just has to be some mechanism and an ever improving mechanism 00:24:50.754 --> 00:24:52.874 about we have this new stuff. 00:24:53.874 --> 00:24:54.684 What do we do with it? 00:24:55.584 --> 00:24:56.204 CJ: Absolutely. 00:24:56.244 --> 00:24:58.164 Duke: You could take your Waterfall stuff, your Agilus. 00:24:58.164 --> 00:25:01.484 I don't care what work paradigm that you use. 00:25:01.484 --> 00:25:04.684 You just have to have an intake process, and there's a governance 00:25:04.684 --> 00:25:09.944 process that decides yay, nay, how big and when, and then going back to 00:25:09.944 --> 00:25:12.524 your stakeholder council and you're communicating with your stakeholders 00:25:12.524 --> 00:25:16.054 and stuff, you've got to socialize that,? 00:25:16.754 --> 00:25:17.474 It's not my fault. 00:25:17.494 --> 00:25:21.064 The thing I asked for just happens to be the smallest thing on the dinner plate. 00:25:21.094 --> 00:25:21.554 Right. 00:25:22.774 --> 00:25:23.944 But it helps me a lot. 00:25:24.164 --> 00:25:26.474 If you say, listen, , we're robbing Peter to pay Paul this 00:25:26.474 --> 00:25:28.404 week and, and, and you're Peter. 00:25:31.914 --> 00:25:32.564 CJ: sorry. 00:25:32.644 --> 00:25:33.404 Duke: get to be Paul. 00:25:35.004 --> 00:25:36.044 , CJ: I 100 percent agree. 00:25:36.984 --> 00:25:38.354 I can't see the Trello card, dude. 00:25:38.354 --> 00:25:39.514 I don't know if you ever saved that. 00:25:39.554 --> 00:25:40.114 Duke: I never did. 00:25:40.994 --> 00:25:41.434 CJ: Oh, okay. 00:25:43.014 --> 00:25:44.064 Duke: There's something else you got to do. 00:25:44.064 --> 00:25:45.094 Save the Trello cards. 00:25:48.694 --> 00:25:50.544 Or at least document your stuff, right? 00:25:51.424 --> 00:25:52.164 That's another thing. 00:25:52.164 --> 00:25:56.934 Have a mindset of you're building this for somebody else. 00:25:56.934 --> 00:25:57.974 Eventually, right? 00:25:58.094 --> 00:25:59.384 Be high agency. 00:25:59.464 --> 00:26:00.624 This is my thing. 00:26:00.674 --> 00:26:03.414 I'm accountable for it But you're only accountable for it for a 00:26:03.414 --> 00:26:07.834 little bit and then somebody else will take it over someday and don't 00:26:07.844 --> 00:26:08.814 CJ: that's a good point. 00:26:08.829 --> 00:26:12.809 Duke: Don't, you know, don't make them miserable because you weren't 00:26:12.839 --> 00:26:14.299 a good steward of the stuff. 00:26:14.339 --> 00:26:20.849 Maybe you had good build, but you hit Lotto, , you GTFO and somebody else is 00:26:20.849 --> 00:26:21.799 going to have to come in and learn it. 00:26:21.819 --> 00:26:23.279 How long is it going to take for them to learn it? 00:26:23.979 --> 00:26:28.049 If you've been a good steward, which includes documentation, memorialization, 00:26:28.829 --> 00:26:30.219 , maybe it could take them days, 00:26:31.424 --> 00:26:31.754 CJ: Yeah, 00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:33.179 Duke: a couple of weeks. 00:26:33.799 --> 00:26:36.679 I've been to places for months where surprise, there's this other thing 00:26:36.679 --> 00:26:39.579 that inhibits you from delivering that thing we told you to build. 00:26:40.439 --> 00:26:42.049 And that's , months after I got there! 00:26:46.199 --> 00:26:49.959 CJ: It's not only just for future people, though. 00:26:49.959 --> 00:26:52.129 I think that's a very, , big part. 00:26:52.259 --> 00:26:57.459 It's also a future you, I mean, I can't describe the number of times that. 00:26:57.719 --> 00:27:01.189 I've built something, gone off to do something else, right. 00:27:01.249 --> 00:27:03.729 Got an enhancement request for the theme that I built come 00:27:03.729 --> 00:27:05.199 back and look at this thing. 00:27:05.199 --> 00:27:07.049 Like I've never seen it before in my life. 00:27:07.419 --> 00:27:07.719 Right. 00:27:09.449 --> 00:27:12.449 And the whole documentation thing, you want to do that. 00:27:12.449 --> 00:27:13.569 You want to do it for your client. 00:27:13.569 --> 00:27:15.479 You want to do it for the instance, right? 00:27:15.559 --> 00:27:18.829 You want to do it for, , the people who will succeed you at some 00:27:18.829 --> 00:27:22.179 point in the future, but you also want to do it for yourself too. 00:27:22.189 --> 00:27:22.469 Right. 00:27:22.469 --> 00:27:25.259 So that when you're doing that task switching, like you can 00:27:25.259 --> 00:27:26.669 incur less penalty for it. 00:27:27.469 --> 00:27:31.689 And, , nowadays, like documentation is so much easier than it's ever been. 00:27:31.689 --> 00:27:31.749 Right. 00:27:32.164 --> 00:27:32.504 Right? 00:27:32.514 --> 00:27:34.344 So there's literally no excuse not to do it. 00:27:35.229 --> 00:27:38.549 Duke: Yeah, man, like, cross train with our AI episodes. 00:27:38.789 --> 00:27:42.779 I'm still waiting for a team that just, run my update sets through 00:27:42.779 --> 00:27:44.409 the AI and just have it document. 00:27:44.409 --> 00:27:48.109 Not just the objects that it built, but see what it does about the intent, 00:27:48.209 --> 00:27:51.749 , why did we add these priorities and these categories or whatever, 00:27:52.019 --> 00:27:53.669 these business rules, these flows? 00:27:54.469 --> 00:27:57.989 I'd love to have an AI that just interprets that, and then it gives me at 00:27:57.989 --> 00:28:02.189 least a starting point of a documentation that I can, you know, it takes a little 00:28:02.189 --> 00:28:03.409 bit of the sting out of the work. 00:28:04.609 --> 00:28:07.639 CJ: Absolutely, and I've gotten a little bit of that, out of chat GPT, 00:28:07.899 --> 00:28:14.449 not the intent part of it, not as much, but definitely , the overarching, this 00:28:14.459 --> 00:28:17.039 is where you're doing kind of thing. 00:28:17.249 --> 00:28:20.659 And these are the specifics of what you did doesn't necessarily 00:28:20.659 --> 00:28:22.169 get all the way to the intent. 00:28:22.719 --> 00:28:26.249 You know, it gives you a good framework where you're not having to type 3 pages. 00:28:26.469 --> 00:28:28.329 Now you only type in maybe three paragraphs. 00:28:30.594 --> 00:28:33.034 So that's always helpful for me. 00:28:33.374 --> 00:28:34.014 Um, 00:28:34.619 --> 00:28:37.029 The last thing I say is just, yeah, just 1 more. 00:28:37.029 --> 00:28:37.239 Right? 00:28:37.239 --> 00:28:38.449 And that's just user feedback. 00:28:38.729 --> 00:28:40.939 ? Take it seriously you've deployed the thing. 00:28:40.949 --> 00:28:42.149 The thing is out there. 00:28:42.469 --> 00:28:44.119 You should be talking to the people using it. 00:28:44.734 --> 00:28:47.894 And understanding how they use it and understanding the 00:28:47.894 --> 00:28:49.204 places where they're not use it. 00:28:49.214 --> 00:28:51.234 They don't think that they're using it well, or they think it 00:28:51.234 --> 00:28:54.324 could be better or the places where they think you did great, right? 00:28:54.324 --> 00:28:55.514 Because you can learn from both. 00:28:55.704 --> 00:28:56.164 Duke: Yeah. 00:28:56.224 --> 00:28:57.544 And really go live. 00:28:57.594 --> 00:28:58.574 , isn't the end. 00:28:59.664 --> 00:29:01.234 CJ: No, no, it's just the beginning, 00:29:01.384 --> 00:29:04.824 Duke: And is there, yeah, is there exactly, is there, is there really an end, 00:29:05.344 --> 00:29:11.654 you know, like everything you build people use and processes change, circumstances 00:29:11.654 --> 00:29:15.844 change, needs change, so you definitely can't look at an app and say, that's. 00:29:16.004 --> 00:29:16.464 Done. 00:29:17.364 --> 00:29:17.864 CJ: right? 00:29:17.884 --> 00:29:20.164 Duke: you just took one more step up the stairwell. 00:29:20.794 --> 00:29:22.614 And for that matter, , I'll just squeeze this one in too. 00:29:22.654 --> 00:29:26.034 Take a victory lap, you know, if you deploy something that's good, like, bring 00:29:26.034 --> 00:29:27.584 that back to your stakeholder council. 00:29:27.584 --> 00:29:31.344 Advertise it within the organization that like, oh, this team is getting all kinds 00:29:31.344 --> 00:29:34.204 of wins because Blah, blah, blah, blah. 00:29:35.254 --> 00:29:39.624 Just kind of infects your stakeholders with confidence that you can deliver. 00:29:40.674 --> 00:29:42.514 CJ: I'm glad you mentioned that Duke because I think that's 00:29:42.514 --> 00:29:43.764 incredibly important, right? 00:29:43.994 --> 00:29:47.694 Like market the heck , out of the things that you're doing well, ? , you 00:29:47.704 --> 00:29:51.724 got to control the narrative , of the platform internally, right? 00:29:51.894 --> 00:29:53.634 Otherwise, somebody else will control it. 00:29:53.684 --> 00:29:53.834 Right? 00:29:53.834 --> 00:29:55.624 Like, there's a, this is a vacuum, right? 00:29:55.624 --> 00:29:57.854 There's a marketing vacuum here, right? 00:29:57.854 --> 00:30:02.314 And if, if you're not the one that's filling it up, somebody 00:30:02.314 --> 00:30:05.014 else will fill it up and they won't fill it up in a way that you will. 00:30:05.664 --> 00:30:08.244 Duke: I've never thought about it that way, but it's so true. 00:30:08.744 --> 00:30:09.204 You know, 00:30:09.639 --> 00:30:10.369 CJ: Yeah, right. 00:30:10.384 --> 00:30:11.844 Duke: a vacuum, especially in marketing.. 00:30:12.234 --> 00:30:14.774 CJ: Somebody else will decide to put perception on the platform and you 00:30:14.804 --> 00:30:16.994 want to be the person doing it, right? 00:30:17.859 --> 00:30:19.149 Duke: make them contend against you. 00:30:19.159 --> 00:30:20.499 If there is contention, right. 00:30:21.144 --> 00:30:25.634 CJ: Yeah, but at least the, if you are being proactive about it, there's 00:30:25.644 --> 00:30:30.214 someone who wants to change the perception of the platform has to counter 00:30:30.664 --> 00:30:32.734 your already established perception. 00:30:33.319 --> 00:30:33.649 Duke: Mm. 00:30:34.479 --> 00:30:35.699 CJ: And that's just harder to do. 00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:40.119 Duke: So wherever you're seeing this, go ahead and hit the reply button 00:30:40.449 --> 00:30:44.599 and tell us what you've done, as a product owner , or a senior consultant 00:30:44.889 --> 00:30:46.969 that has made success a lot better. 00:30:46.969 --> 00:30:48.829 It has got nothing to do with the platform itself. 00:30:49.059 --> 00:30:49.909 We'd love to hear from you. 00:30:49.919 --> 00:30:51.149 Maybe we can get an episode out of it. 00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:53.069 CJ: Absolutely. 00:30:53.289 --> 00:30:56.949 And, , like , and share and rate and all of that kind of good 00:30:56.989 --> 00:30:57.489 Duke: All of that 00:30:57.519 --> 00:30:57.869 CJ: say, smash 00:30:58.289 --> 00:30:58.529 Duke: Yeah. 00:30:58.959 --> 00:30:59.799 CJ: that like button later. 00:31:02.269 --> 00:31:02.949 Duke: All right, folks. 00:31:02.949 --> 00:31:03.869 We'll see you on the next one.