WEBVTT 00:00:00.445 --> 00:00:03.165 Matt Abrahams: Communication can sometimes be chaotic, especially when 00:00:03.165 --> 00:00:07.405 setting others up for success and managing spontaneous conversations. 00:00:07.905 --> 00:00:11.845 But with a little work, we can all find composure and clarity. 00:00:13.745 --> 00:00:16.685 My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at 00:00:17.005 --> 00:00:18.525 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:19.315 --> 00:00:22.645 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:23.505 --> 00:00:27.445 As part of our four part miniseries on spontaneous speaking, we introduced you 00:00:27.445 --> 00:00:32.325 to a number of coaches whose jobs require successful in the moment communication. 00:00:33.145 --> 00:00:36.725 So many of our listeners found value in our coaches' advice that we wanted 00:00:36.725 --> 00:00:40.285 to provide you with an opportunity to hear our complete interviews. 00:00:40.865 --> 00:00:43.724 So today I'm excited for you to learn from Peter Sagal. 00:00:44.255 --> 00:00:49.285 Peter is a humorist writer and the longtime host of the popular NPR News 00:00:49.285 --> 00:00:51.285 quiz show, Wait Wait... Don't Tell Me. 00:00:52.040 --> 00:00:55.650 He's also an accomplished author of several books and a marathon runner. 00:00:56.100 --> 00:00:58.130 Let's jump right in and learn from Peter. 00:01:02.380 --> 00:01:03.330 Peter, welcome. 00:01:03.730 --> 00:01:05.010 I look forward to our conversation. 00:01:05.320 --> 00:01:05.930 Peter Sagal: Well, thank you. 00:01:05.970 --> 00:01:06.370 I do too. 00:01:06.370 --> 00:01:07.090 Matt Abrahams: Should we get started? 00:01:07.690 --> 00:01:07.890 Peter Sagal: Absolutely. 00:01:08.210 --> 00:01:11.490 I, I should say for all listeners that I am here with my one and a half year 00:01:11.490 --> 00:01:15.450 old who is a very well-behaved little boy, but like all little boys of that 00:01:15.470 --> 00:01:17.730 age demands pretty constant attention. 00:01:18.684 --> 00:01:21.425 Matt Abrahams: To start, I am a big fan of Wait Wait... Don't 00:01:21.425 --> 00:01:25.065 Tell Me, a show that is part news, part comedy, and part interview. 00:01:25.524 --> 00:01:27.585 How would you define your role as host? 00:01:28.095 --> 00:01:30.985 Peter Sagal: Hosting a show like, Wait Wait... Don't Tell Me, not 00:01:30.985 --> 00:01:33.264 something I ever trained to do. 00:01:33.744 --> 00:01:35.264 I kind of had to learn it on the fly. 00:01:35.565 --> 00:01:40.330 My first role on Wait Wait... Don't Tell Me was being one of the panelists. 00:01:40.430 --> 00:01:45.090 So there I was having been a playwright, a screenwriter, and then a panelist on the 00:01:45.090 --> 00:01:46.290 show, and now I'm the host of the show. 00:01:46.490 --> 00:01:49.370 I do not recommend going back and listening to the shows from that 00:01:49.370 --> 00:01:51.690 era in 1998 as I was learning it. 00:01:51.790 --> 00:01:55.650 My job was no longer to be funny as it had been when I was a panelist. 00:01:55.650 --> 00:01:58.010 My job was to make funny possible. 00:01:58.490 --> 00:02:01.690 I had to understand and internalize that if somebody else in the show did 00:02:01.690 --> 00:02:06.195 something, said something funny, even if I didn't say it, that was still to 00:02:06.195 --> 00:02:07.835 my credit, I had been doing my job. 00:02:08.095 --> 00:02:13.115 The second thing I had to learn was that on the radio cleverness 00:02:13.335 --> 00:02:16.875 and wit, people enjoy, but what they really wanna hear is you. 00:02:17.695 --> 00:02:21.675 My job was to be somebody and to be a part of something that 00:02:21.675 --> 00:02:22.954 people wanted to spend time with. 00:02:23.415 --> 00:02:26.785 And even once I had figured that out, was hard to do. 00:02:27.265 --> 00:02:30.585 Matt Abrahams: I am really impressed with the, the level 00:02:30.645 --> 00:02:34.065 of reflection and introspection that you've done about your role. 00:02:34.805 --> 00:02:39.465 The notion that your job to be effective is to enable others to 00:02:39.465 --> 00:02:41.545 be effective is really important. 00:02:42.105 --> 00:02:45.825 I hear you, Peter, saying a lot that applies not just I think 00:02:45.825 --> 00:02:48.425 to radio and podcasting, but I think to communication in general. 00:02:49.095 --> 00:02:52.555 You're in service of the audience that you're speaking to, and that's that 00:02:52.555 --> 00:02:56.755 connection that gives you permission to have that communication with 00:02:56.755 --> 00:02:57.835 the audience you're speaking to. 00:02:57.995 --> 00:02:58.955 I really appreciate that. 00:02:59.255 --> 00:03:03.435 Now, clearly some of what you do is planned and scripted, but a 00:03:03.435 --> 00:03:04.995 fair amount happens in the moment. 00:03:05.415 --> 00:03:09.155 Can you share a story of a time where you had to adjust your communication 00:03:09.535 --> 00:03:13.395 in real time when things didn't go as you had expected or predicted? 00:03:14.225 --> 00:03:15.795 Peter Sagal: It's not so much I can share a moment, I can 00:03:15.795 --> 00:03:18.515 share any given show that we do. 00:03:18.785 --> 00:03:21.555 Because our show, we're unique in a couple of ways. 00:03:21.555 --> 00:03:22.835 First of all, we're an ensemble show. 00:03:22.975 --> 00:03:26.155 I'm not John Oliver speaking into directly into a microphone or Seth 00:03:26.275 --> 00:03:29.035 Meyers doing his closer look, which is very similar and quite brilliant. 00:03:29.295 --> 00:03:32.555 I'm a guy on stage with other people, three panelists, one judge, and 00:03:32.555 --> 00:03:34.595 scorekeeper, sometimes a special guest. 00:03:34.735 --> 00:03:35.635 And we're all talking together. 00:03:35.735 --> 00:03:38.395 And what that means is at any moment, any one of those people 00:03:38.685 --> 00:03:41.329 could derail what I'm out to do. 00:03:41.570 --> 00:03:43.609 I could say to myself, I'm going to talk about that. 00:03:44.190 --> 00:03:46.290 And the panelists could decide, no, no, no. 00:03:46.290 --> 00:03:47.089 We're gonna talk about this. 00:03:47.160 --> 00:03:48.130 Happens all the time. 00:03:48.649 --> 00:03:50.970 Secondly, we do write a script. 00:03:51.049 --> 00:03:54.850 I have very talented colleagues with whom I research and write and 00:03:55.089 --> 00:03:59.130 rewrite and rewrite a script over the course of the week, very much like a 00:03:59.489 --> 00:04:01.049 standard comedy shows writer's room. 00:04:01.310 --> 00:04:05.649 But what makes my show different is we then take that script and I have to be 00:04:05.649 --> 00:04:07.170 ready at any minute to throw it out. 00:04:07.970 --> 00:04:15.510 In fact, one of the things that we see as a failure on our show is if I were to 00:04:15.510 --> 00:04:19.190 do all the jokes written in front of me, and the panelists don't really chime in. 00:04:19.260 --> 00:04:21.269 Because we're very fond of the jokes. 00:04:21.490 --> 00:04:22.710 We wrote them, we worked on them. 00:04:23.050 --> 00:04:25.830 But if it's just me talking, then it's not our show. 00:04:26.169 --> 00:04:27.310 Our show is a conversation. 00:04:27.930 --> 00:04:30.999 So what that means is I could start off talking about whatever. 00:04:31.140 --> 00:04:35.635 So we happen to be talking in a day after we taped the show on the week 00:04:35.635 --> 00:04:37.914 of the vice presidential debate, so we knew we were gonna talk 00:04:37.914 --> 00:04:39.034 about the vice presidential debate. 00:04:39.055 --> 00:04:40.955 We wrote jokes about the vice presidential debate. 00:04:41.075 --> 00:04:43.115 I ended up about with five or six of 'em. 00:04:43.115 --> 00:04:43.795 Hello Teddy. 00:04:44.414 --> 00:04:46.075 I'm talking about the vice presidential debate. 00:04:46.075 --> 00:04:46.635 Did you watch it? 00:04:47.534 --> 00:04:47.755 No. 00:04:48.575 --> 00:04:50.675 So I had all these jokes that we had written together about the 00:04:50.675 --> 00:04:54.865 vice presidential debate, but I had three panelists and they 00:04:54.865 --> 00:04:55.905 were gonna do their own thing. 00:04:56.125 --> 00:04:57.105 So I told a joke. 00:04:57.920 --> 00:04:59.000 I maybe did another joke. 00:04:59.080 --> 00:04:59.750 I got a laugh. 00:04:59.750 --> 00:05:00.410 I got us started. 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:01.240 I turned to the panelist. 00:05:01.300 --> 00:05:01.920 Did you watch it? 00:05:01.950 --> 00:05:02.640 Well, yes I did. 00:05:02.640 --> 00:05:03.800 Well, this is what I thought. 00:05:03.800 --> 00:05:04.560 This is what they thought. 00:05:04.740 --> 00:05:08.000 Now I am, my first mode is guy delivering jokes. 00:05:08.260 --> 00:05:11.920 My second mode is guy hosting a conversation, and that was where we get 00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:12.880 back to what we talked about before. 00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:14.440 I wanna get their ideas. 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:16.360 I wanna have them land jokes. 00:05:16.820 --> 00:05:21.800 If they start a line of commentary, my job is to make a judgment 00:05:21.980 --> 00:05:23.000 as to whether that's valuable. 00:05:23.934 --> 00:05:27.104 Usually out of respect to them, I say, okay, we'll see where it goes 00:05:27.164 --> 00:05:28.544 and encourage them to follow it. 00:05:28.765 --> 00:05:29.184 Really? 00:05:29.184 --> 00:05:29.905 What do you mean by that? 00:05:29.965 --> 00:05:30.664 Is that what you thought? 00:05:30.664 --> 00:05:30.905 Really? 00:05:31.215 --> 00:05:33.664 Part of the reason I'm able to do this is 'cause the show is edited. 00:05:33.965 --> 00:05:38.585 So yeah, I mean, I do that planning for A and instead X 00:05:38.585 --> 00:05:42.104 happening is not only a common occurrence, it's essentially my job. 00:05:42.684 --> 00:05:45.505 Matt Abrahams: The thing that you said there that I think is so important 00:05:45.645 --> 00:05:49.505 for others who find themselves in situations where they have to respond 00:05:50.044 --> 00:05:55.460 is that preparation is key, but being willing to let go of that preparation 00:05:55.960 --> 00:05:59.060 and follow what's happening and needed in the moment is really important. 00:05:59.280 --> 00:06:04.020 And in fact, you optimize for that and, and that's how you're defining success. 00:06:04.580 --> 00:06:07.900 I find it interesting that you feel you wouldn't be successful if you 00:06:08.100 --> 00:06:09.180 actually got through the script. 00:06:09.520 --> 00:06:12.140 And that's an important mindset and approach that I 00:06:12.140 --> 00:06:13.500 think many people can adopt. 00:06:14.320 --> 00:06:16.860 Do you do specific things to help you prepare for that? 00:06:16.880 --> 00:06:19.500 So for example, I don't know if you get nervous or anxious anymore. 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:23.180 Is there anything you do to help set yourself up for success? 00:06:23.200 --> 00:06:24.700 Do you get very present oriented? 00:06:24.700 --> 00:06:26.420 Do you do something to manage your anxiety? 00:06:27.419 --> 00:06:31.080 Peter Sagal: The way I prepare to go on stage and be confident and in the 00:06:31.080 --> 00:06:35.320 moment and not perturbed by the stress is by doing it for twenty-six years. 00:06:35.780 --> 00:06:38.080 But there is definite, I do have a little ritual. 00:06:38.229 --> 00:06:41.239 It's not that much of a ritual, but it's, it, it kind of works for me. 00:06:41.780 --> 00:06:44.640 We do a lot of prep right up to taping. 00:06:45.460 --> 00:06:48.680 We write, we rewrite, and then there's sometimes other things I need to do. 00:06:48.760 --> 00:06:52.480 I need to talk to the panelists, talk to them about whatever we're gonna 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:55.040 do and we don't give them the answers to the questions that they're gonna 00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:57.640 answer, but we sometimes warn them as to what our top stories are gonna be. 00:06:57.640 --> 00:06:58.560 So they get in the right mindset. 00:06:58.980 --> 00:07:02.400 And this is what I do, we always start with what we call the warmup in which I 00:07:02.400 --> 00:07:06.540 come out and I just chat with the audience a little bit before actual taping starts. 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:08.100 And that has a bunch of purposes. 00:07:08.280 --> 00:07:11.070 To let them know how the evening's gonna play out, to introduce to them to the 00:07:11.150 --> 00:07:13.660 people who are gonna be there to tell 'em who our special guest is gonna be. 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:18.260 But it's also a moment for them to just spend with me. 00:07:18.960 --> 00:07:22.900 So what this is all about was, that's what I think about. 00:07:23.620 --> 00:07:26.020 I take a few minutes, I say, okay, everybody, and I walk backstage 00:07:26.020 --> 00:07:28.420 and I just start thinking about what my jokes are gonna be. 00:07:28.450 --> 00:07:29.620 Okay, I'll do, I'll mention that. 00:07:29.850 --> 00:07:30.620 I'll mention this. 00:07:30.770 --> 00:07:31.460 This is funny. 00:07:31.850 --> 00:07:32.140 Okay. 00:07:32.320 --> 00:07:33.300 And I focus on that. 00:07:34.345 --> 00:07:38.925 And I get that little two, three minute monologue in my head ready to go. 00:07:39.035 --> 00:07:40.365 I've got the points I wanna make. 00:07:40.765 --> 00:07:43.365 I go out, I do those jokes, they usually work. 00:07:44.265 --> 00:07:46.965 And then the audience is ready and I'm ready. 00:07:47.305 --> 00:07:49.485 And I'm confident because I've got this good script. 00:07:49.645 --> 00:07:52.085 I got these great talented people to my left, the panel. 00:07:52.365 --> 00:07:54.765 I got Bill Kurtis, who's always a rock to my right. 00:07:55.235 --> 00:07:56.165 What do I gotta worry about? 00:07:56.165 --> 00:07:56.605 Let's do this. 00:07:57.530 --> 00:08:00.109 Matt Abrahams: It sounds to me like preparation is really important. 00:08:00.210 --> 00:08:03.070 You help prepare the guests to give them topics and focus. 00:08:03.650 --> 00:08:08.510 You prepare the audience to be participants actively in what it is you're 00:08:08.510 --> 00:08:10.310 doing, and then you prepare yourself. 00:08:10.630 --> 00:08:14.669 I think many of us, especially when we think about spontaneous speaking, 00:08:15.030 --> 00:08:18.390 speaking in the moment, we don't think about the prep work that 00:08:18.390 --> 00:08:19.990 we could do to help us get ready. 00:08:20.330 --> 00:08:24.815 And I think a ritual like you have can be very helpful for all of us. 00:08:24.875 --> 00:08:27.855 We, we can think about what are the things I can do to help get myself present, 00:08:28.035 --> 00:08:33.895 get myself focused, perhaps help prepare other people to maximize the experience. 00:08:34.075 --> 00:08:35.294 So I appreciate that. 00:08:36.075 --> 00:08:39.495 One of the things that many people struggle with, especially when 00:08:39.495 --> 00:08:43.455 put on the spot, is introducing not just themselves, but others. 00:08:43.914 --> 00:08:46.455 You can imagine sitting in a meeting and your boss turns to you and 00:08:46.455 --> 00:08:47.535 says, hey, you know that person? 00:08:47.835 --> 00:08:48.935 Why don't you introduce them to the group? 00:08:50.099 --> 00:08:52.160 You do a lot of introducing on the show. 00:08:52.239 --> 00:08:52.439 Peter Sagal: I do. 00:08:52.620 --> 00:08:54.599 Matt Abrahams: You introduce yourself, you introduce guests, 00:08:54.660 --> 00:08:56.280 you introduce the participants. 00:08:56.300 --> 00:08:57.959 You even talk about your production staff. 00:08:58.420 --> 00:09:01.040 To your mind, what makes a good introduction? 00:09:01.979 --> 00:09:02.680 Peter Sagal: Here's the secret. 00:09:03.140 --> 00:09:07.599 People think that the focus of an introduction should be 00:09:07.660 --> 00:09:09.000 the person you're introducing. 00:09:09.640 --> 00:09:11.000 I wanna make this person feel good. 00:09:11.560 --> 00:09:15.920 I wanna say that this person has all these important qualities. 00:09:16.775 --> 00:09:20.564 So, just like you said, if you asked me to introduce my friend in a meeting, I'd be 00:09:21.415 --> 00:09:24.155 thinking about my friend, and I'd think, okay, how can I make my friend happy? 00:09:24.375 --> 00:09:25.155 But here's the trick. 00:09:25.415 --> 00:09:27.155 You shouldn't think about making your friend happy. 00:09:27.175 --> 00:09:29.075 You should think about making the audience happy. 00:09:29.535 --> 00:09:35.675 You guys are so lucky because I've got this person, this person for you. 00:09:36.455 --> 00:09:40.475 And that affects everything in terms of the words I choose to introduce 00:09:40.475 --> 00:09:44.835 them, how I choose to describe them, but even more importantly, my attitude. 00:09:45.875 --> 00:09:48.935 So for example, if I'm introducing Paula Poundstone, who's been 00:09:48.935 --> 00:09:51.495 on our show, I never wanna say, and here's Paula Poundstone. 00:09:51.795 --> 00:09:53.055 You know her, you'll love her. 00:09:53.305 --> 00:09:53.935 Isn't she great? 00:09:54.535 --> 00:09:57.095 I wanna say, guys, here's Paula Poundstone. 00:09:57.545 --> 00:09:59.295 She's here, in front of you. 00:10:00.375 --> 00:10:05.795 And that, I think, it not only lets the audience know that this is a privilege, 00:10:05.795 --> 00:10:10.155 this is a present, they get to see this person just based on my attitude. 00:10:10.215 --> 00:10:15.115 But it also lets, in a roundabout way, like a ricocheted way, the person I'm 00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:16.640 introducing know what I think of them. 00:10:16.980 --> 00:10:18.480 So it serves that purpose as well. 00:10:19.710 --> 00:10:23.305 Matt Abrahams: I really like that you're introducing, not just the 00:10:23.305 --> 00:10:27.545 person, but the experience that you want the others to have of that person. 00:10:28.445 --> 00:10:32.625 And the way in which you focus your attention, not on the person, but on 00:10:32.835 --> 00:10:38.705 those you are introducing them to, helps you make that experience possible. 00:10:39.465 --> 00:10:42.665 I really appreciate that and I will look at how you introduce 00:10:42.665 --> 00:10:44.545 people differently now as a result. 00:10:44.735 --> 00:10:45.705 Peter Sagal: That really is my secret. 00:10:45.985 --> 00:10:48.930 I just want everybody to know, man, you are lucky. 00:10:49.020 --> 00:10:49.770 Isn't this great? 00:10:50.030 --> 00:10:53.449 And you have to mean it too, as, as I think George Burns is most often 00:10:53.449 --> 00:10:55.209 credited with saying about acting. 00:10:55.390 --> 00:10:56.850 The most important thing is sincerity. 00:10:56.850 --> 00:10:58.370 If you can fake that, you've got it made. 00:11:00.329 --> 00:11:02.089 Matt Abrahams: Speaking of humor, uh, you are certainly 00:11:02.089 --> 00:11:04.329 funny and you use humor so well. 00:11:04.959 --> 00:11:09.209 What advice do you have for people who try, or need to be, or 00:11:09.209 --> 00:11:10.730 want to be funny in the moment? 00:11:10.949 --> 00:11:13.329 Are there things, are you judging and saying, yeah, that's gonna 00:11:13.329 --> 00:11:14.170 work, that's not gonna work. 00:11:14.170 --> 00:11:18.565 And based on your experience, or how do you coach people, if you 00:11:18.565 --> 00:11:19.965 were, to be funny in the moment? 00:11:20.275 --> 00:11:25.285 Peter Sagal: There's a old saying that writing can't be 00:11:25.285 --> 00:11:26.605 taught, but it can be learned. 00:11:27.920 --> 00:11:31.420 And to whatever extent that's true, it's quadrupley true for humor. 00:11:31.860 --> 00:11:33.540 I don't think you can teach somebody to be funny. 00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:38.460 The only way to succeed in the arts is figure out what you want to see in the 00:11:38.460 --> 00:11:40.860 world that's not there yet, and make it. 00:11:41.160 --> 00:11:43.420 And then hope that other people agree with you. 00:11:43.439 --> 00:11:43.939 That's it. 00:11:44.050 --> 00:11:44.939 There's no other way. 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:45.939 And same with humor. 00:11:46.560 --> 00:11:49.460 The only way to make an audience laugh is to do something that 00:11:49.460 --> 00:11:51.740 you legitimately think is funny and hope they agree with you. 00:11:52.439 --> 00:11:53.660 You know, I'll give you an example. 00:11:53.959 --> 00:11:57.620 So I was interviewing Bob Seger and I said, man, you were out there in, 00:11:57.620 --> 00:12:00.100 in like the rock and roll scene in the seventies in Southern California. 00:12:00.160 --> 00:12:01.020 It was crazy, right? 00:12:01.020 --> 00:12:01.660 And he says, yeah. 00:12:01.680 --> 00:12:05.380 He says, you know, I went out there and I, and I borrowed this guy's mansion and 00:12:05.380 --> 00:12:08.819 he had this like amazing TV setup and he had all these like cable channels. 00:12:08.900 --> 00:12:09.819 I had never seen anything like it. 00:12:10.060 --> 00:12:14.300 I said, so you're telling me that you went out to the bacchanal, the drug 00:12:14.300 --> 00:12:18.260 and sexual bacchanal of seventies Hollywood music scene, and the thing 00:12:18.370 --> 00:12:20.260 that you enjoyed most was cable tv? 00:12:21.810 --> 00:12:26.065 And it got a big laugh because it was both kind of funny and also true. 00:12:26.485 --> 00:12:28.065 So that's what I'm always looking for. 00:12:28.285 --> 00:12:30.625 Matt Abrahams: So it's about being committed and being 00:12:30.625 --> 00:12:32.185 authentic to what's true for you. 00:12:32.615 --> 00:12:32.905 Peter Sagal: Yeah. 00:12:33.085 --> 00:12:33.905 You have to be present. 00:12:34.185 --> 00:12:38.745 I think that is the key, as Ram Dass told us, being here now. 00:12:39.735 --> 00:12:43.699 Being attuned to the possibilities where this could go, steering it 00:12:43.800 --> 00:12:45.339 toward the choice that you prefer. 00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:49.180 You're talking to somebody, they say three things, my job is to make 00:12:49.180 --> 00:12:51.380 sure if I'm gonna follow up with one of those three things, to follow 00:12:51.400 --> 00:12:54.660 up with the one that will lead to the best outcome for my audience. 00:12:54.880 --> 00:12:57.459 Matt Abrahams: Are there things you do to help you get present oriented? 00:12:57.459 --> 00:13:01.839 I know you're a runner and for many people, running helps be present oriented. 00:13:01.860 --> 00:13:02.520 Peter Sagal: Yeah, it's very meditative. 00:13:02.520 --> 00:13:06.740 For me, one of the things that really helps is just the adrenaline of being 00:13:06.740 --> 00:13:08.100 in front of an audience, is focusing. 00:13:08.100 --> 00:13:10.300 But I gotta tell you, sometimes even that fails. 00:13:10.300 --> 00:13:14.860 There have been times when something has gone wrong or when something 00:13:14.860 --> 00:13:19.260 happens to just knock me off my game and I'm standing on stage and I'm a 00:13:19.260 --> 00:13:21.020 million miles away and that is bad. 00:13:22.400 --> 00:13:25.380 We also found out, by the way, that Rod Stewart and his band were also banned 00:13:25.380 --> 00:13:28.940 from all Holiday Inns, and they got around it by checking in as Fleetwood Mac. 00:13:29.800 --> 00:13:30.340 Oh my God. 00:13:31.445 --> 00:13:32.005 I am so sorry. 00:13:32.105 --> 00:13:33.165 Bill Kurtis: You just gave up the next one. 00:13:33.325 --> 00:13:37.725 Peter Sagal: I just gave up the next one because what happened was we had 00:13:37.725 --> 00:13:40.965 talked about this and then since we talked about it, it got written up as 00:13:40.965 --> 00:13:42.665 the next question and I didn't know that. 00:13:42.665 --> 00:13:47.055 So can you imagine my shame just now, looking down at my 00:13:47.055 --> 00:13:48.605 script and seeing this question. 00:13:48.665 --> 00:13:52.845 But what we're gonna do is we're just gonna go through with it because this is 00:13:52.845 --> 00:13:54.375 show business and the show must go on. 00:13:54.755 --> 00:13:55.075 Yeah. 00:13:55.475 --> 00:13:56.814 Alright, here's your next question. 00:13:58.875 --> 00:14:01.495 Matt Abrahams: So, when something like that happens where you do get knocked 00:14:01.495 --> 00:14:04.895 off your game, what helps you come back is what I'm hearing, is to just remind 00:14:05.094 --> 00:14:08.535 yourself that I have to be present and I just have to handle what's going on. 00:14:09.074 --> 00:14:09.295 Peter Sagal: Yes. 00:14:09.385 --> 00:14:12.094 Let's say like you say something that is just the wrong tone 00:14:12.115 --> 00:14:13.175 and it brings the room down. 00:14:13.354 --> 00:14:15.015 And you have two choices if you're me at that moment. 00:14:15.115 --> 00:14:16.775 You can say, oh God, that was terrible. 00:14:17.275 --> 00:14:20.765 Or you can say, well, we got thirty more minutes of show, 00:14:21.205 --> 00:14:22.405 and that can still be good. 00:14:22.785 --> 00:14:25.085 Matt Abrahams: I'm sure you're familiar with a famous basketball 00:14:25.085 --> 00:14:26.365 coach, Mike Krzyzewski. 00:14:26.385 --> 00:14:30.445 He had this notion that he would teach his players of next play. 00:14:30.785 --> 00:14:33.725 If something goes abysmally wrong or even if it goes amazingly, 00:14:33.725 --> 00:14:35.925 well, move on to the next play. 00:14:36.635 --> 00:14:36.925 Peter Sagal: Yeah. 00:14:37.145 --> 00:14:38.285 I'm more of a baseball guy. 00:14:38.305 --> 00:14:41.125 And one of the things I've come to learn about baseball players is one of the 00:14:41.125 --> 00:14:45.685 things that teams look for in players, especially pitchers, is the ability to 00:14:45.685 --> 00:14:50.055 shake off a mistake, be that a bad pitch that gets hit outta the park for a home 00:14:50.075 --> 00:14:52.415 run, be it an error if you're a fielder. 00:14:52.755 --> 00:14:56.015 The ability to shake it off, say, okay, that happened, but 00:14:56.115 --> 00:14:57.695 now I'm going to pitch well. 00:14:58.115 --> 00:15:01.535 And one of the things I've learned about elite athletes is that their 00:15:01.535 --> 00:15:05.455 mindset is such that if something goes wrong, it's an anomaly. 00:15:05.705 --> 00:15:09.195 Maybe because the ref got it wrong, but it doesn't reflect on them. 00:15:09.545 --> 00:15:12.945 And in a weird way that's kind of delusional, but in other 00:15:12.945 --> 00:15:14.025 ways it's absolutely necessary. 00:15:14.405 --> 00:15:16.665 Matt Abrahams: The, the approach and the mindset really makes a big 00:15:16.665 --> 00:15:21.465 difference in terms of success in these moments, Peter, you are very gracious 00:15:21.565 --> 00:15:22.985 in the way you interview people. 00:15:23.825 --> 00:15:25.465 Demonstrating graciousness can be tricky. 00:15:25.725 --> 00:15:28.225 You don't want to come off as too effusive, nor do you 00:15:28.225 --> 00:15:29.905 wanna be too matter of fact. 00:15:30.325 --> 00:15:33.945 Any suggestions for how to be gracious in our communication? 00:15:34.765 --> 00:15:36.295 Peter Sagal: Well, lemme start off by talking about myself. 00:15:36.295 --> 00:15:38.810 It entirely depends on what your job is, right? 00:15:38.949 --> 00:15:42.370 My job is not the job of the people on 60 Minutes, or even the people who 00:15:42.370 --> 00:15:46.050 interview folks for the new shows on NPR, All Things Considered Morning Edition. 00:15:46.069 --> 00:15:47.460 My job is not Steve Inskeep's. 00:15:47.709 --> 00:15:49.219 My job isn't even Terry Gross's. 00:15:49.819 --> 00:15:54.935 My job is to offer a good time to our guest, to make them happy, 00:15:55.115 --> 00:15:56.575 to make them happy they came. 00:15:56.755 --> 00:16:00.135 So my job is to make them comfortable, to put them at ease, to joke around 00:16:00.135 --> 00:16:01.895 with them in a way that they appreciate. 00:16:02.275 --> 00:16:02.975 How do I do that? 00:16:03.145 --> 00:16:07.055 First of all, I try to find things that they will enjoy talking about. 00:16:07.295 --> 00:16:11.055 I try to find things that they don't always have to talk about. 00:16:11.435 --> 00:16:14.175 One of the things I promise people who are coming onto our show is I 00:16:14.255 --> 00:16:18.255 say, I hope this will be the most enjoyable stop on your publicity tour. 00:16:18.455 --> 00:16:22.960 I, I wanna get them off their talking points, but not specifically to 00:16:23.550 --> 00:16:26.360 make them uncomfortable, to give them something else to talk about. 00:16:26.680 --> 00:16:30.120 I get interviewed a lot and being asked a different kind of question, like for 00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:32.480 example, these, is really a pleasure. 00:16:32.660 --> 00:16:34.480 If people are asking me different questions than I normally 00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:36.694 get, I'm like, oh, okay. 00:16:36.694 --> 00:16:37.415 Well this is fun. 00:16:37.415 --> 00:16:38.135 This is interesting. 00:16:38.135 --> 00:16:39.335 I'll like, this is fun to talk about. 00:16:39.645 --> 00:16:44.455 Sometimes you think to yourself, well, I'm gonna make this person happy by explaining 00:16:44.475 --> 00:16:48.095 to them how much I appreciate their work. 00:16:48.275 --> 00:16:50.575 But what you're really trying to do is show the person that you're 00:16:50.575 --> 00:16:53.215 special, that they should like you just as much as you like them. 00:16:53.245 --> 00:16:56.935 This is in particularly referring to those situations where you're 00:16:56.935 --> 00:16:58.015 interviewing somebody you really admire. 00:16:58.970 --> 00:17:01.910 That's not a gift, showing yourself off to them. 00:17:02.020 --> 00:17:04.190 Even if you think it is, because what you're showing them is 00:17:04.190 --> 00:17:05.190 how much you appreciate them. 00:17:05.500 --> 00:17:09.589 What is a gift is to let them express themselves by being genuinely 00:17:09.589 --> 00:17:13.349 interested in what they have to say about this, that, or the other thing. 00:17:13.770 --> 00:17:18.230 For example, I noticed that when you're playing this role, you have a tendency to 00:17:18.310 --> 00:17:19.990 do X. Uh, that struck me as really smart. 00:17:19.990 --> 00:17:20.870 Where did that come from? 00:17:20.970 --> 00:17:24.030 Oh, well, uh, they might say, uh, thank you for noticing that. 00:17:24.030 --> 00:17:24.950 That's something I actually thought about. 00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:27.605 Or they might say, really, I never thought about that at all. 00:17:27.744 --> 00:17:29.975 And that's a fine answer too, you know? 00:17:30.074 --> 00:17:33.524 The best way to be gracious is to turn the attention as much 00:17:33.524 --> 00:17:35.645 as you possibly can to them. 00:17:36.315 --> 00:17:41.985 Matt Abrahams: It's being other focused, but also being appreciative of making the 00:17:41.985 --> 00:17:43.945 moment special, is what I heard you say. 00:17:44.085 --> 00:17:45.345 Not just run of the mill. 00:17:45.455 --> 00:17:46.814 Peter Sagal: Make it special for them. 00:17:47.264 --> 00:17:49.105 And if you can do that, you're gonna make it special for your audience. 00:17:50.275 --> 00:17:52.735 Matt Abrahams: So before we end, I'd like to ask you three questions that 00:17:52.755 --> 00:17:56.335 I'm asking everyone who's part of this mini series on spontaneous speaking. 00:17:56.715 --> 00:18:00.255 Is there somebody that jumps to mind as a really accomplished 00:18:00.975 --> 00:18:01.975 communicator in that regard? 00:18:02.405 --> 00:18:06.615 Peter Sagal: Stephen Colbert, although weirdly, that's not nearly as much on 00:18:06.885 --> 00:18:11.535 display now as it was when he was doing The Colbert Report, but what he was 00:18:11.535 --> 00:18:15.615 doing every night, especially in his interview segment, was so astonishing. 00:18:15.675 --> 00:18:19.575 He was having a conversation with a real person who had something 00:18:19.575 --> 00:18:23.175 important to say and he was doing it improvisationally in character. 00:18:23.475 --> 00:18:29.055 To do that and still get a good interview was an act of prestidigitation that 00:18:29.055 --> 00:18:30.215 I don't think we'll ever see again. 00:18:30.535 --> 00:18:32.895 I actually have spoken to him and one of the things he told me, which 00:18:32.895 --> 00:18:36.100 I thought was so fascinating, was the only people he had trouble interviewing 00:18:36.100 --> 00:18:39.139 was the people he genuinely admired because his character wouldn't. 00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:39.659 Matt Abrahams: Wow. 00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:40.740 Peter Sagal: And I thought that was amazing. 00:18:41.379 --> 00:18:45.500 Matt Abrahams: Question number two, what advice would you give our listeners to 00:18:45.500 --> 00:18:48.139 just become better speakers in the moment? 00:18:48.980 --> 00:18:54.300 Peter Sagal: I think there are two things, both difficult, but both important. 00:18:54.899 --> 00:18:55.940 A, confidence. 00:18:56.480 --> 00:19:00.060 We, human beings are so good at reading social cues that if 00:19:00.060 --> 00:19:03.950 you're sending out social cues of discomfort, of nervousness, that's 00:19:03.950 --> 00:19:04.950 all people are gonna pay attention to. 00:19:05.155 --> 00:19:10.615 And the second one is kind of connected, is you have to say something of value. 00:19:10.875 --> 00:19:11.975 And that's really hard. 00:19:12.485 --> 00:19:15.415 Just like I was talking about with comedy, there's a tendency to just 00:19:15.415 --> 00:19:17.535 do something that you know the audience always thinks is funny. 00:19:17.535 --> 00:19:18.295 That's what she said. 00:19:19.145 --> 00:19:24.005 Coming up with something that is both valuable and something that your 00:19:24.285 --> 00:19:29.245 audience has never heard before is really hard, but absolutely essential. 00:19:29.465 --> 00:19:30.165 That's the job. 00:19:30.365 --> 00:19:33.645 I mean, one of the things that's really an advantage if you're speaking 00:19:33.645 --> 00:19:37.365 to somebody is if you know something that they don't, and if you can do 00:19:37.425 --> 00:19:40.205 any one of those things or anything related, you'll be a lot better off. 00:19:40.665 --> 00:19:42.605 Matt Abrahams: So to really help people be better in the moment, 00:19:42.705 --> 00:19:46.125 you have to have confidence in that moment, and you have to provide value. 00:19:46.465 --> 00:19:49.100 So, I'd like you to give me some homework, Peter. 00:19:49.520 --> 00:19:55.660 If you were to assign me one thing that would help me do something that 00:19:55.660 --> 00:19:57.980 you do regularly, what would it be? 00:19:58.940 --> 00:20:01.800 Peter Sagal: So, one of the things that I might suggest is if someone has to 00:20:01.800 --> 00:20:09.220 give a speech on any given topic, either sit down and write out your speech, or 00:20:09.280 --> 00:20:13.820 if you really want to be daring, record it, and then listen to it with a very, 00:20:13.880 --> 00:20:15.500 or read it, with a very critical eye. 00:20:15.800 --> 00:20:18.820 The critical eye has to be focused on what's new. 00:20:19.610 --> 00:20:24.350 What do I have to say that nobody else can offer this audience. 00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:27.870 Could be your personal perspective because of the experiences you've had. 00:20:28.170 --> 00:20:31.590 It could be knowledge that you've researched and discovered that you believe 00:20:31.590 --> 00:20:33.300 your audience doesn't have access to. 00:20:33.690 --> 00:20:37.830 Or it can be an insight that you have faith in and also know 00:20:37.830 --> 00:20:38.910 that is new to your audience. 00:20:39.530 --> 00:20:44.190 And everything that isn't one of those three things, personal experience, genuine 00:20:44.190 --> 00:20:47.550 knowledge that you've discovered, or insight that no one else to your knowledge 00:20:47.550 --> 00:20:49.990 has had, if not that, strike it out. 00:20:50.170 --> 00:20:50.950 See what you got left. 00:20:51.300 --> 00:20:54.950 Matt Abrahams: That advice to record yourself and to listen critically 00:20:54.970 --> 00:20:59.230 for what's new is homework that I will absolutely put into practice. 00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:01.430 Peter, this has been fantastic. 00:21:01.930 --> 00:21:07.825 The insights you provided in terms of connection, in terms of making others 00:21:08.055 --> 00:21:13.385 look good, to help you be successful, and to really add value by providing 00:21:13.385 --> 00:21:16.745 something new or something insightful or a different perspective can help 00:21:16.745 --> 00:21:19.625 make us all better spontaneous speakers. 00:21:19.635 --> 00:21:20.505 Thank you for your time. 00:21:20.845 --> 00:21:21.425 Peter Sagal: My pleasure. 00:21:21.425 --> 00:21:22.705 And also open with a joke. 00:21:22.705 --> 00:21:23.265 That always works. 00:21:24.755 --> 00:21:25.385 Matt Abrahams: Thank you. 00:21:30.595 --> 00:21:33.105 Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Think 00:21:33.105 --> 00:21:35.060 Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:38.100 To learn more from our spontaneous speaking coaches. 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:46.149 Listen to our four-part miniseries episodes, 197, 198, 199, and 203. 00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:50.820 You can also go to fastersmarter.io/spontaneous. 00:21:51.730 --> 00:21:54.179 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Michael 00:21:54.179 --> 00:21:56.620 Riley, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:21:56.840 --> 00:21:58.340 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:21:58.770 --> 00:22:00.660 With thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:22:01.080 --> 00:22:04.340 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:22:04.639 --> 00:22:06.379 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:22:06.810 --> 00:22:09.100 Also, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram. 00:22:09.430 --> 00:22:13.580 Check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:22:13.740 --> 00:22:15.700 Learning content, and our newsletter. 00:22:16.080 --> 00:22:19.300 Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, 00:22:20.220 --> 00:22:25.380 Ask Matt Anythings, and much more at fastersmarter.io/premium.