WEBVTT

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Google goes back on their policy of not

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scanning Gmail for advertising.

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Bitwarden's dual licensing move cleared

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up.

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And Proton's CEO is in full AI psychosis.

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All this and more coming up on This

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Week in Privacy, so stay tuned.

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Welcome back everybody to This Week in

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Privacy,

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our weekly series where we discuss the

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latest updates with what we're working on

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in the Privacy Guides community and this

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week's top stories in data privacy and

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cybersecurity while answering viewer

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questions.

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I am Nate and with me this week

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is Jordan.

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Hey Jordan, how have you been?

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Been doing good.

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Super excited to dive into some really

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juicy stories this week.

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Oh yes, quite a week.

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Arguably just as big as last week,

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but we'll get to that for sure.

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I guess we'll go ahead and start off

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with our main story here,

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which is about Google.

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So back in twenty seventeen,

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some of you may remember that Google

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updated their privacy policy and said that

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they weren't going to be scanning your

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inbox anymore on Gmail for targeted

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advertising.

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They'll still scan it for other reasons,

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you know,

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make sure there's no illegal content or

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whatever,

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but targeted advertising was no more,

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which personally at the time I was kind

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of like,

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sounds like maybe they just don't need,

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like they already have so much other data.

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They don't need that anymore.

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I was kind of weird, but anyways,

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they've gone back on that now sort of

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in a way.

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And they will now use Gmail and photos

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specifically for ads and

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So this story comes from Android

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Authority,

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who says that this is related to their

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personal intelligence AI service that

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they're offering people.

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And they say that instead of giving you

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generic answers,

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Gemini and Google Search can pull

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information from connected apps,

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including Gmail and Google Photos,

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to better understand what you're asking

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and provide more relevant responses.

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So...

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Yeah,

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it says privacy policy still says that it

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doesn't use content from Gmail driver

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photos to personalize ads by default.

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However,

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an important exception now applies to

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users who explicitly connect that

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information to Google services that offer

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personalized advertising,

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which I'm sure as soon as you connect

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to Gemini or personalized whatever,

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I'm sure it's buried in those ten thousand

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pages of legalese that it's like,

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by the way.

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So they say that giving Google access to

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your personal information for smarter

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recommendations could also lead to more

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targeting ads depending on the services

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and permissions.

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There was actually another article from

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Ars Technica that originally led back to

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this one,

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or that's how I found this one.

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They said that this change took place on

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October,

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or like that's when the privacy policy was

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updated.

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They noted here,

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there's like a little screenshot for audio

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listeners that before it said like, um,

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we don't use your stuff for personalized

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ads.

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Now it says,

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we don't show you personalized ads based

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on sensitive categories such as race,

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religion, sexual orientation, or health.

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Um,

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we don't show you personalized ads based

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on your conference from drive,

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Gmail or photos,

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unless you choose to make these ads

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available.

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Um,

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Yeah,

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and so the example they give here is

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they say,

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you might ask Google search for restaurant

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recommendations near a hotel you've

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booked.

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With access to your Gmail,

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search could pull up your reservation

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details and suggest places nearby.

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Well,

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I guess I'll get to my opinion in

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a second.

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It says, to be clear,

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this doesn't mean Google automatically

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scans your private emails and photos to

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serve ads.

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The exception concerns information users

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choose to share with eligible services.

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Again, I'm certain it's buried in there.

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And they say, let's see.

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Still,

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there's a difference between using your

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information to answer a question and using

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it to decide which ads might interest you.

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Users comfortable with former might not be

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happy about the latter.

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Fortunately, you can control this.

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If you'd rather prevent Google search from

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accessing information in your connected

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Google apps, here's what you can do.

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And then there's detailed steps about all

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the different... Because Google's...

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For those of you who've never dealt with

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it, Google's privacy and settings are...

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word that comes to mind is labyrinthine

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labyrinthine um it's confusing and to this

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day i will just be bored digging through

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my google account and i will still find

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like oh here's an address from ten years

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ago oh here's a an old phone number

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i don't have anymore you know just like

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weird things that you know here's a bunch

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of youtube comments that i didn't find and

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delete before like it's so hard to manage

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google data it's really confusing

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Um,

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but thankfully they have a breakdown on

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where you can go find this stuff or

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needless to say, you can, um,

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just stop using Google of course.

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So yeah.

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Um,

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I'm checking my notes here to make sure

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that I've covered everything.

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Oh yeah.

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The, uh, what was,

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what was the thing I was going to

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make a comment about up here?

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Um, yeah, the whole, like you could, uh,

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Google could give you recommendations for

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a restaurant near a hotel you've booked.

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I don't understand how hard it is just

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to be like, um, you know,

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uh,

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pizza places near the Hilton in Seattle.

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Like,

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I don't know why it needs to go

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digging through your Gmail when you're

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usually,

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at least I'm usually pretty specific about

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that stuff, but I digress.

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Um,

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I think I'll turn this one over to

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Jordan or bring you back here for this

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one.

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Um, I,

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I kind of snarkily made the comment that

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like,

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you could always just use another

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provider, but, uh, do you have,

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first of all,

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do you have any opinions on this story

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and do you have, uh,

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other providers that we recommend that

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stand out to you?

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Yeah,

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I think you kind of nailed it on

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the head there when you said like,

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why does this even need to exist?

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Like,

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surely this is something that you can do

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manually yourself, right?

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I mean, that is true as well.

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But I think giving access to your email

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inbox,

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like when we talk about email inboxes,

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like

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maybe you don't think about it but there

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is a lot of information that goes into

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your email inbox like there's you know

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doctor's appointments there's uh you know

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all sorts of invoices that you get from

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purchasing things um there's a lot of

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information that's available in your

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emails right and allowing google's gemini

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service or you know connecting this to

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other

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other services in your Google account is

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potentially allowing that data to be

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sucked up into an AI service,

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which could be quite bad if that's leaked.

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I think obviously don't connect personal

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intelligence to your Gmail account.

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Go and check.

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There's a whole bunch of personalization

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settings that you can actually change in

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Gmail.

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you can disable a lot of the features

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that it does use that are a little

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bit more privacy invasive.

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So even if you are still using Gmail,

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you can actually make some moves to make

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it less,

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like the data to be less shared with

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other people.

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So I would say if you are still

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using Gmail, go check that,

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check in the settings,

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make sure you're disabling all those

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personalization options and

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personal intelligence as well.

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Don't connect it with Gemini.

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Don't connect it with other apps.

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That's the first thing you can do.

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And then like Nate said,

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why aren't you just using another service

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at that point?

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Like if you do care about your privacy,

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you shouldn't be using an email service

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that is

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provided by an advertising company.

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So Google is an advertising company.

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That's where they make the most of their

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money.

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So we recommend three different providers

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on privacyguides.org.

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And those three providers are Tutor,

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ProtonMail and Mailbox.

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So ProtonMail is probably the most similar

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to Google.

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And the reason why we recommend

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switching your entire email service is

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because these services that we recommend,

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they implement certain security features

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that Gmail doesn't have.

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And

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Gmail being unencrypted,

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like your email inbox isn't stored

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encrypted,

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it allows them to make all these extra

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personalization options available and

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enable these intelligence features.

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But because of these more secure

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providers,

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they encrypt the data and they don't have

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access to...

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the actual email content itself.

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So that protects you quite significantly

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from a lot of the privacy issues that

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Gmail actually has.

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So we would recommend switching from Gmail

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to something better.

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And it's become so easy at this point

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where they offer easy switch tools and

00:08:25.980 --> 00:08:26.581
stuff like that.

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So there's definitely

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less of a reason not to switch at

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this point.

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But I guess I'll throw it back to

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Nate here.

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There was some questions in the chat as

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well, if you want to hop on those.

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But

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Yeah,

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we are going to cover the Proton story

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thing in detail.

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So feel free to leave questions and

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comments,

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but I think we'll save those until we

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get to that story for sure.

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Yeah,

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I think you hit the nail on the

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head.

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They do have easy import tools,

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and especially Proton, which again,

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we'll talk about them later.

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But they even have a tool where it'll

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automatically import all your emails and

00:09:03.231 --> 00:09:04.152
set up the forwarding rule.

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And I think you can even use Gmail

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in Proton now,

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which I'm not going to lie,

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that one kind of confuses me a little

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bit, but whatever.

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Yeah,

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and just to kind of throw it out

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there, like you...

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You really get it, obviously.

00:09:17.565 --> 00:09:18.926
But I get that a lot when I

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talk about email and people are like,

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well,

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I don't really use my email for anything

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anyways.

00:09:21.807 --> 00:09:22.126
And it's like,

00:09:22.488 --> 00:09:24.168
but you use it for password resets.

00:09:24.328 --> 00:09:26.149
And we always run into those people that

00:09:26.169 --> 00:09:26.470
are like, well,

00:09:26.490 --> 00:09:27.529
nobody should use email because it's

00:09:27.570 --> 00:09:27.931
insecure.

00:09:27.951 --> 00:09:28.850
And it's like, yeah, that's true.

00:09:29.150 --> 00:09:30.432
But my doctor's not going to signal

00:09:30.451 --> 00:09:33.913
message me appointment reminders and

00:09:33.953 --> 00:09:35.115
messages and stuff like that.

00:09:35.195 --> 00:09:38.155
And so using an encrypted email provider

00:09:38.176 --> 00:09:39.297
still cuts that risk in half.

00:09:39.636 --> 00:09:41.979
If Proton or Tudor has a data breach,

00:09:42.864 --> 00:09:45.346
they can't leak those emails versus Gmail

00:09:45.365 --> 00:09:46.125
who totally can,

00:09:46.307 --> 00:09:49.749
or the targeted advertising can be used to

00:09:49.769 --> 00:09:52.431
manipulate you as we saw ever since

00:09:52.451 --> 00:09:53.471
advertising existed.

00:09:53.611 --> 00:09:54.552
And yeah,

00:09:54.832 --> 00:09:57.274
so it's definitely really important in my

00:09:57.294 --> 00:09:57.595
opinion,

00:09:57.674 --> 00:09:59.696
even though email has a lot of flaws,

00:09:59.816 --> 00:10:01.498
even though you're only encrypting half of

00:10:01.518 --> 00:10:02.638
the chain, in my opinion,

00:10:02.697 --> 00:10:04.158
it's all about like reducing the amount of

00:10:04.179 --> 00:10:04.840
attack surface.

00:10:06.860 --> 00:10:07.322
Exactly.

00:10:08.211 --> 00:10:09.351
I will say a couple people here,

00:10:09.751 --> 00:10:09.993
you know,

00:10:10.033 --> 00:10:11.734
Foundog said you're early this week,

00:10:12.094 --> 00:10:13.956
and then Alex said first time catching it

00:10:13.995 --> 00:10:15.417
live, so thank you so much, guys.

00:10:15.798 --> 00:10:16.958
Somebody said the irony of complaining

00:10:16.979 --> 00:10:18.379
about this while using a Google account.

00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:22.823
We're on StreamYard on this end, but...

00:10:22.884 --> 00:10:23.563
No, I hear you.

00:10:23.625 --> 00:10:24.705
I mean, I get that,

00:10:24.785 --> 00:10:26.407
but it's also like a...

00:10:27.866 --> 00:10:28.947
everybody's in a different situation,

00:10:28.986 --> 00:10:29.126
right?

00:10:29.167 --> 00:10:30.288
Like we're on Google because we're,

00:10:30.408 --> 00:10:32.067
we're trying to reach people who are not

00:10:32.089 --> 00:10:33.269
familiar with the message of privacy.

00:10:33.349 --> 00:10:34.548
Like, you know, not,

00:10:34.849 --> 00:10:35.590
I was brought up in a church,

00:10:35.649 --> 00:10:36.750
so I apologize, but this is the first,

00:10:36.909 --> 00:10:38.291
first place my brain goes to is like

00:10:39.010 --> 00:10:39.530
in the Bible,

00:10:39.591 --> 00:10:41.032
Jesus was criticized for hanging out with

00:10:41.052 --> 00:10:41.611
all the sinners.

00:10:41.692 --> 00:10:42.251
And he's like, yeah,

00:10:42.272 --> 00:10:43.712
the healthy people don't need a doctor.

00:10:43.832 --> 00:10:45.092
I'm going to the people who need to

00:10:45.133 --> 00:10:45.793
hear my message.

00:10:45.832 --> 00:10:47.693
And that's why we hang out on platforms

00:10:47.714 --> 00:10:49.654
like Twitter and, and YouTube.

00:10:49.674 --> 00:10:51.195
And I think we even have like a

00:10:51.254 --> 00:10:52.275
LinkedIn and a Facebook.

00:10:52.336 --> 00:10:52.535
So yeah,

00:10:53.576 --> 00:10:54.417
But I digress.

00:10:54.897 --> 00:10:56.217
Yeah, that's a pretty quick story.

00:10:56.278 --> 00:10:57.077
But like you said,

00:10:57.158 --> 00:10:58.558
if you are forced to use Google for

00:10:58.578 --> 00:10:59.840
whatever reason, I mean, first of all,

00:10:59.899 --> 00:11:01.561
we use this for YouTube,

00:11:01.660 --> 00:11:03.642
but we don't use Google for email or

00:11:03.841 --> 00:11:04.662
anything else, really.

00:11:04.721 --> 00:11:06.383
So that's an option.

00:11:06.462 --> 00:11:07.764
But yeah, you can, again,

00:11:07.823 --> 00:11:09.365
the article has instructions on how to go

00:11:09.384 --> 00:11:10.725
through and turn all that stuff off.

00:11:10.785 --> 00:11:12.966
But I think with that,

00:11:12.986 --> 00:11:15.087
we'll go ahead and check our forum

00:11:15.128 --> 00:11:16.269
questions real quick.

00:11:17.028 --> 00:11:17.250
And...

00:11:19.764 --> 00:11:21.485
We actually had a lot of questions this

00:11:21.546 --> 00:11:21.745
week.

00:11:21.785 --> 00:11:22.767
Well, we had a lot of discussion.

00:11:22.807 --> 00:11:24.989
We had some people, let's see here.

00:11:25.009 --> 00:11:26.970
We had one person said,

00:11:26.990 --> 00:11:28.312
it's unbelievable how many people still

00:11:28.351 --> 00:11:30.192
don't care about this Google story,

00:11:30.232 --> 00:11:31.533
despite the amount of times companies just

00:11:31.553 --> 00:11:32.534
break their promises.

00:11:34.716 --> 00:11:36.899
Somebody posted a pretty good meme about

00:11:37.298 --> 00:11:38.620
that guy standing at a podium and like,

00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:39.360
who hates this thing?

00:11:39.380 --> 00:11:40.361
And everybody raises their hands.

00:11:40.642 --> 00:11:41.523
Who will stop using it?

00:11:41.543 --> 00:11:42.563
And everybody puts their hand down.

00:11:42.583 --> 00:11:42.823
Yeah.

00:11:45.916 --> 00:11:47.917
There was somebody else asked us to talk

00:11:47.937 --> 00:11:51.618
about Proton, which again, we will get to.

00:11:52.817 --> 00:11:54.499
And yeah, Discord,

00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:55.318
which we're going to get to a little

00:11:55.339 --> 00:11:56.078
bit later as well.

00:11:56.438 --> 00:12:00.399
So I'll check some of the other places

00:12:00.900 --> 00:12:01.860
that people leave comments.

00:12:01.880 --> 00:12:02.280
But otherwise,

00:12:02.301 --> 00:12:03.741
I think we can move on to our

00:12:03.782 --> 00:12:05.142
first forum discussion.

00:12:06.515 --> 00:12:07.355
Yeah, sounds good.

00:12:07.375 --> 00:12:09.397
Let's dive straight into this forum

00:12:09.417 --> 00:12:09.897
discussion.

00:12:10.076 --> 00:12:10.736
And once again,

00:12:10.876 --> 00:12:11.697
just letting everyone know,

00:12:11.738 --> 00:12:13.197
you can leave your comments in the chat

00:12:13.278 --> 00:12:14.938
and on our forum at

00:12:14.979 --> 00:12:18.860
discuss.privacyguides.net.

00:12:18.899 --> 00:12:21.581
So this post here was kind of an

00:12:21.701 --> 00:12:23.822
ongoing story that's been going on for at

00:12:23.861 --> 00:12:25.042
least, as far as I'm aware,

00:12:25.062 --> 00:12:26.222
a couple of weeks at this point.

00:12:27.322 --> 00:12:29.403
Bitwarden has been going through some

00:12:29.604 --> 00:12:30.724
license changes.

00:12:31.683 --> 00:12:35.785
So I guess quoting from the post itself

00:12:35.826 --> 00:12:36.066
here,

00:12:37.515 --> 00:12:39.797
that Bitwarden made on their own community

00:12:39.836 --> 00:12:40.197
forum.

00:12:40.618 --> 00:12:41.937
Starting in the next release,

00:12:42.097 --> 00:12:43.759
the Bitwarden apps published to various

00:12:43.778 --> 00:12:45.759
stores will be commercially licensed

00:12:45.820 --> 00:12:46.259
builds.

00:12:46.659 --> 00:12:48.321
No action is needed and the apps will

00:12:48.341 --> 00:12:49.902
work exactly as they do today.

00:12:50.361 --> 00:12:52.143
Bitwarden remains committed to open source

00:12:52.182 --> 00:12:53.663
security and transparency.

00:12:54.023 --> 00:12:54.903
The GPL v.

00:12:54.943 --> 00:12:57.024
Three open source license version

00:12:57.144 --> 00:12:59.525
continues to be updated and published on

00:12:59.745 --> 00:13:00.265
GitHub.

00:13:00.365 --> 00:13:01.947
All current features are available

00:13:02.386 --> 00:13:03.249
In both versions,

00:13:03.610 --> 00:13:05.754
license details are on GitHub.

00:13:06.014 --> 00:13:07.879
Bitwarden remains committed to a robust

00:13:08.038 --> 00:13:09.743
free forever plan for everyone.

00:13:10.557 --> 00:13:13.260
And just so we're a hundred percent clear

00:13:13.321 --> 00:13:13.760
on this,

00:13:14.442 --> 00:13:16.464
Bitwarden is not going closed source.

00:13:16.724 --> 00:13:18.024
You can still fork Bitwarden,

00:13:18.466 --> 00:13:19.767
no change to self-hosting.

00:13:20.167 --> 00:13:22.109
The licensing change only affects those

00:13:22.149 --> 00:13:24.751
who are repackaging and reselling

00:13:25.052 --> 00:13:25.711
Bitwarden.

00:13:26.033 --> 00:13:28.735
So I think this is a little bit

00:13:29.375 --> 00:13:31.778
of a confusing story for people a little

00:13:31.798 --> 00:13:31.977
bit.

00:13:32.298 --> 00:13:32.339
Um,

00:13:33.595 --> 00:13:35.797
there was definitely a lot of heated

00:13:35.817 --> 00:13:36.378
discussion.

00:13:36.518 --> 00:13:38.019
Let's call it a heated discussion in the

00:13:38.058 --> 00:13:40.341
Bitwarden community forum about this.

00:13:40.542 --> 00:13:42.504
And certainly some people with some

00:13:42.543 --> 00:13:45.986
thoughts on our community forum too.

00:13:46.508 --> 00:13:48.230
And even someone from Bitwarden team

00:13:48.330 --> 00:13:50.471
actually did respond to this,

00:13:50.851 --> 00:13:51.972
to this forum discussion.

00:13:52.854 --> 00:13:52.974
Um,

00:13:54.211 --> 00:13:54.731
Basically,

00:13:55.793 --> 00:13:57.573
the person from Bitwarden mentioned

00:13:57.914 --> 00:14:00.996
basically what they said is this is more

00:14:01.037 --> 00:14:02.697
about giving Bitwarden protection for

00:14:02.778 --> 00:14:04.958
certain features for those who are

00:14:05.019 --> 00:14:07.280
repackaging and reselling Bitwarden,

00:14:07.780 --> 00:14:09.962
and it doesn't prevent any community

00:14:10.003 --> 00:14:11.124
projects from existing.

00:14:11.644 --> 00:14:14.004
So one of those community projects that

00:14:14.024 --> 00:14:15.787
you probably are familiar with is

00:14:15.886 --> 00:14:20.230
Vaultwarden, which is basically a forked,

00:14:20.710 --> 00:14:23.231
easily more self-hostable, easily...

00:14:23.883 --> 00:14:26.327
more easily self-hostable version of

00:14:26.408 --> 00:14:27.850
Bitwarden's server, basically.

00:14:28.932 --> 00:14:31.658
But some people were concerned that since

00:14:31.697 --> 00:14:32.519
Bitwarden is moving,

00:14:32.940 --> 00:14:34.062
changing their licensing,

00:14:34.643 --> 00:14:35.946
that this might

00:14:37.284 --> 00:14:38.725
mean that they're moving towards more of a

00:14:38.784 --> 00:14:39.765
closed source model,

00:14:40.145 --> 00:14:42.005
which a lot of people that use Bitwarden

00:14:42.505 --> 00:14:43.826
specifically don't want.

00:14:45.466 --> 00:14:47.768
So that's why some people were frustrated.

00:14:48.447 --> 00:14:50.128
I guess further on to that,

00:14:50.248 --> 00:14:51.208
new enterprise features,

00:14:51.288 --> 00:14:53.068
new products and other items that provide

00:14:53.428 --> 00:14:56.470
Bitwarden at a straight strategic

00:14:56.830 --> 00:14:58.831
competitive edge in a new market will be

00:14:58.850 --> 00:15:00.510
behind a commercial license.

00:15:01.177 --> 00:15:03.399
This in most cases will apply to business

00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:04.100
plans only.

00:15:04.440 --> 00:15:06.562
Some features for premium plans may also

00:15:06.601 --> 00:15:08.163
fall under the commercial license,

00:15:08.562 --> 00:15:10.365
but that will be evaluated on a case

00:15:10.384 --> 00:15:11.245
by case basis.

00:15:11.725 --> 00:15:12.806
So it seems to me like a lot

00:15:12.826 --> 00:15:15.368
of the enterprise features for Bitwarden

00:15:15.447 --> 00:15:17.409
would eventually become, you know,

00:15:17.450 --> 00:15:19.650
part of this commercial build instead of

00:15:20.751 --> 00:15:23.134
available in the GPL v three open source

00:15:23.173 --> 00:15:23.553
version,

00:15:24.054 --> 00:15:26.615
but basically all the actual backend and

00:15:26.696 --> 00:15:27.297
like, you know,

00:15:27.437 --> 00:15:29.558
specific important stuff that actually

00:15:29.599 --> 00:15:29.938
needs,

00:15:30.714 --> 00:15:32.575
to be available for people to actually

00:15:32.615 --> 00:15:35.816
look at is still available for people to

00:15:36.096 --> 00:15:36.956
look at on GitHub.

00:15:37.496 --> 00:15:40.817
So it's definitely a choice to do this,

00:15:40.857 --> 00:15:42.258
but it kind of makes sense because

00:15:42.278 --> 00:15:43.639
Bitwarden wants to protect their

00:15:44.019 --> 00:15:44.798
commercial interests.

00:15:44.818 --> 00:15:46.179
They don't want competitors being able to

00:15:46.220 --> 00:15:48.780
see the code for specific features that

00:15:48.821 --> 00:15:50.441
give them a strategic edge over

00:15:50.461 --> 00:15:51.081
competitors.

00:15:52.562 --> 00:15:54.802
So it makes sense that they would consider

00:15:54.842 --> 00:15:56.943
doing this sort of move.

00:15:59.760 --> 00:15:59.980
Yeah,

00:16:00.201 --> 00:16:01.403
there's a lot of discussion in this thread

00:16:01.442 --> 00:16:01.722
as well.

00:16:01.743 --> 00:16:03.124
I don't know if you have anything more

00:16:03.144 --> 00:16:05.125
to add on this one, Nate,

00:16:05.166 --> 00:16:06.886
but it's definitely an interesting

00:16:06.927 --> 00:16:08.288
progression for Bitwarden.

00:16:09.370 --> 00:16:10.190
Yeah, not too much.

00:16:10.350 --> 00:16:11.350
I just kind of wanted to share this

00:16:11.390 --> 00:16:12.832
because, like we said,

00:16:12.852 --> 00:16:13.813
this is a little bit of an older

00:16:13.854 --> 00:16:14.173
story,

00:16:14.193 --> 00:16:15.815
but I keep seeing people referencing it,

00:16:15.855 --> 00:16:17.057
and it kind of went under my radar.

00:16:17.096 --> 00:16:17.417
So I was like,

00:16:17.437 --> 00:16:18.518
what are people talking about?

00:16:18.697 --> 00:16:20.899
And I agree with you.

00:16:20.919 --> 00:16:22.020
It's one of those things where their

00:16:22.081 --> 00:16:24.844
stated reason makes sense, in my opinion.

00:16:25.484 --> 00:16:25.803
Yeah.

00:16:27.043 --> 00:16:29.423
but uh but i i i also agree

00:16:29.443 --> 00:16:30.344
that it's one of those things worth

00:16:30.364 --> 00:16:32.384
keeping an eye on like this by itself

00:16:32.845 --> 00:16:34.644
is not bad and you know australia said

00:16:34.804 --> 00:16:36.566
a good point here too just now um

00:16:36.586 --> 00:16:38.125
this alone is not that bad it's this

00:16:38.145 --> 00:16:39.506
with the private equity incident that

00:16:39.527 --> 00:16:40.787
makes it even worse for paranoid people

00:16:40.807 --> 00:16:42.388
which yeah i agree like bit orton has

00:16:42.768 --> 00:16:44.427
venture capital and they they have been

00:16:44.467 --> 00:16:46.408
clearly moving in a more like business to

00:16:46.448 --> 00:16:48.909
business kind of direction um which i'm

00:16:48.950 --> 00:16:50.490
fine with if you know that's the direction

00:16:50.509 --> 00:16:52.030
they're trying to take to to make money

00:16:52.311 --> 00:16:52.811
um they haven't

00:16:53.250 --> 00:16:54.753
extremely generous free plan,

00:16:54.773 --> 00:16:55.332
in my opinion.

00:16:55.393 --> 00:16:58.475
So what I don't want, personally,

00:16:58.897 --> 00:17:00.118
is I don't want to see them turn

00:17:00.138 --> 00:17:01.339
their back on consumers.

00:17:01.379 --> 00:17:02.019
Like they say, oh,

00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:03.321
the free plan will always be there.

00:17:03.900 --> 00:17:04.382
Yeah, but...

00:17:06.843 --> 00:17:07.522
Personal opinion.

00:17:07.663 --> 00:17:08.723
I don't even mind if they take away

00:17:08.884 --> 00:17:09.663
some of the features.

00:17:09.743 --> 00:17:10.825
I'd have to sit down and think which

00:17:10.884 --> 00:17:11.505
ones I'm okay with.

00:17:11.785 --> 00:17:13.046
But what I'm scared of is it's going

00:17:13.066 --> 00:17:14.406
to turn into a LastPass situation where

00:17:14.426 --> 00:17:16.288
it's like, oh yeah, it's a free plan.

00:17:16.548 --> 00:17:18.788
You get one device with like ten entries

00:17:18.868 --> 00:17:19.989
and it's like it's so limited.

00:17:20.028 --> 00:17:21.690
It's like practically not even like it's a

00:17:21.730 --> 00:17:22.770
joke to call it a free plan.

00:17:23.131 --> 00:17:24.852
So that's what I'm worried about is...

00:17:25.531 --> 00:17:27.213
the potential that this could be shifting

00:17:27.294 --> 00:17:28.675
in the direction of and shitification.

00:17:29.195 --> 00:17:30.678
But again, at this time,

00:17:30.877 --> 00:17:31.980
there is no indication of that.

00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:33.540
It's still fully source available,

00:17:33.681 --> 00:17:34.321
open source.

00:17:35.103 --> 00:17:36.464
They're not cracking down on vault warden.

00:17:36.484 --> 00:17:37.945
They're not cracking that they're even not

00:17:37.965 --> 00:17:40.409
cracking down on resellers, which is way,

00:17:40.429 --> 00:17:41.150
way back in the day.

00:17:42.230 --> 00:17:44.431
Um, the new oil, I, I started, um,

00:17:44.451 --> 00:17:45.751
looking into affiliate links there.

00:17:46.511 --> 00:17:47.731
And so I reached out to some of

00:17:47.751 --> 00:17:49.152
the services that I recommended on the new

00:17:49.311 --> 00:17:49.853
oil and was like, Hey,

00:17:49.873 --> 00:17:50.712
do you have an affiliate link?

00:17:51.053 --> 00:17:52.252
And I remember Bitwarden was the only one

00:17:52.272 --> 00:17:53.133
that got back to me and they're like,

00:17:53.153 --> 00:17:53.573
we don't,

00:17:53.853 --> 00:17:55.253
but you're totally welcome to like host

00:17:55.273 --> 00:17:56.913
your own version and sell like a premium

00:17:56.953 --> 00:17:58.513
version and like basically become an MSP.

00:17:58.534 --> 00:18:00.255
And I'm like, I'm not doing that,

00:18:00.355 --> 00:18:01.575
but wow, that was,

00:18:01.634 --> 00:18:02.734
they were the only ones that did that.

00:18:02.755 --> 00:18:03.714
And I thought it was so,

00:18:03.734 --> 00:18:06.215
that was pretty wild, but, um, yeah,

00:18:06.296 --> 00:18:06.796
anyway, sorry.

00:18:06.996 --> 00:18:07.135
Uh,

00:18:08.236 --> 00:18:09.395
I think right now there's nothing to be

00:18:09.435 --> 00:18:10.576
worried about, but it's, again,

00:18:10.596 --> 00:18:11.797
it's something to keep an eye on and

00:18:11.836 --> 00:18:12.836
to make sure that it doesn't get any

00:18:12.876 --> 00:18:13.977
worse in my opinion.

00:18:14.037 --> 00:18:15.797
So yeah.

00:18:17.278 --> 00:18:19.258
I guess also just to quickly add as

00:18:19.298 --> 00:18:20.278
well, the,

00:18:20.538 --> 00:18:22.298
they did post like a roadmap and stuff

00:18:22.338 --> 00:18:23.479
and you can see, you know,

00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:25.199
some of the enterprise features that

00:18:25.239 --> 00:18:27.700
they've actually added or planning to add

00:18:27.759 --> 00:18:28.319
at this point.

00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:30.660
So, you know, for instance,

00:18:30.759 --> 00:18:31.940
one of the features that they've added is

00:18:31.980 --> 00:18:34.381
stage users using SCIM and directory

00:18:34.421 --> 00:18:34.840
connector.

00:18:36.101 --> 00:18:38.382
This is not a feature that anyone who

00:18:38.521 --> 00:18:41.261
is a personal or business user would

00:18:41.301 --> 00:18:41.821
probably need.

00:18:41.961 --> 00:18:43.821
This is for large corporations that have

00:18:44.282 --> 00:18:47.323
lots of users and that are going to

00:18:47.343 --> 00:18:48.103
need these features.

00:18:48.502 --> 00:18:50.723
The other one was adding support for

00:18:50.763 --> 00:18:52.943
CrowdStrike security information and event

00:18:52.963 --> 00:18:53.443
management.

00:18:54.044 --> 00:18:54.403
Again,

00:18:54.784 --> 00:18:56.625
not a feature that anyone here is going

00:18:56.644 --> 00:18:57.865
to actually need access to.

00:18:59.744 --> 00:19:01.365
I think it's always good to actually keep

00:19:01.444 --> 00:19:02.986
on top of this news and make sure

00:19:03.006 --> 00:19:04.306
that you're paying attention because

00:19:05.006 --> 00:19:05.266
You know,

00:19:06.186 --> 00:19:07.848
it's always possible for things to go bad,

00:19:07.909 --> 00:19:09.830
but I think, you know,

00:19:09.951 --> 00:19:13.714
a lot of times it is a lot

00:19:13.755 --> 00:19:15.615
of fear, misinformation and doubt.

00:19:15.635 --> 00:19:15.856
You know,

00:19:15.896 --> 00:19:18.459
like people are spreading stuff and trying

00:19:18.479 --> 00:19:19.819
to say things,

00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:21.642
but you always should double check

00:19:21.682 --> 00:19:22.603
everything that's happening.

00:19:23.663 --> 00:19:24.785
Just looking at their roadmap,

00:19:24.944 --> 00:19:27.587
a lot of the features that they are

00:19:27.788 --> 00:19:28.669
suggesting are

00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:29.779
you know,

00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:31.362
for enterprise users that are locked

00:19:31.382 --> 00:19:32.943
behind this commercial license are not

00:19:32.983 --> 00:19:35.266
features that anyone here would actually

00:19:35.286 --> 00:19:36.646
need access to anyway.

00:19:37.167 --> 00:19:39.509
So we still have full access to the

00:19:39.549 --> 00:19:41.432
source code and what the actual Bitwarden

00:19:41.471 --> 00:19:41.972
apps are doing.

00:19:42.491 --> 00:19:43.952
It's just some of these enterprise

00:19:43.992 --> 00:19:45.153
features that are being locked behind

00:19:45.192 --> 00:19:48.054
that, which I think is fair enough for,

00:19:48.094 --> 00:19:49.154
you know,

00:19:49.194 --> 00:19:50.535
Bitwarden's commercial interests.

00:19:50.974 --> 00:19:51.596
They are a company.

00:19:51.615 --> 00:19:52.415
They need to make money.

00:19:52.756 --> 00:19:53.896
So it makes sense.

00:19:55.297 --> 00:19:56.637
Someone here, Australis, said,

00:19:57.397 --> 00:19:58.817
I moved to KeePass because I don't want

00:19:58.837 --> 00:19:59.578
to gamble on this.

00:20:00.058 --> 00:20:00.878
And that's totally fair.

00:20:01.199 --> 00:20:02.359
I think it's totally fair.

00:20:02.380 --> 00:20:02.559
Like,

00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:04.820
everyone has a certain line that they're

00:20:04.840 --> 00:20:05.961
willing to cross.

00:20:06.501 --> 00:20:07.061
And if this...

00:20:07.821 --> 00:20:08.021
you know,

00:20:08.102 --> 00:20:10.625
move from Bitwarden is the line that you

00:20:10.865 --> 00:20:12.688
personally take when it comes to this sort

00:20:12.708 --> 00:20:14.349
of thing, that's perfectly fine.

00:20:14.630 --> 00:20:15.330
And I think, you know,

00:20:15.750 --> 00:20:17.753
Keepass has got a lot of great clients.

00:20:18.094 --> 00:20:19.496
They don't have any, you know,

00:20:19.736 --> 00:20:21.337
like venture capital funding.

00:20:21.377 --> 00:20:21.898
They don't have,

00:20:22.328 --> 00:20:24.170
There's definitely less risk using

00:20:24.230 --> 00:20:25.211
something that's offline.

00:20:26.451 --> 00:20:29.153
But also there's also concerns with key

00:20:29.173 --> 00:20:29.755
pass as well.

00:20:29.815 --> 00:20:31.756
I will say they were accepting AI

00:20:31.796 --> 00:20:32.557
generated code.

00:20:33.037 --> 00:20:33.277
You know,

00:20:33.297 --> 00:20:35.318
there's all sorts of things that happen no

00:20:35.338 --> 00:20:36.400
matter what tool you're using.

00:20:36.819 --> 00:20:40.923
It's always best to be more vigilant about

00:20:41.002 --> 00:20:43.585
everything that you choose to use.

00:20:45.046 --> 00:20:45.346
But yeah,

00:20:45.467 --> 00:20:46.647
that's kind of everything I have to add

00:20:46.667 --> 00:20:47.127
on that.

00:20:47.448 --> 00:20:48.489
Unless you had anything.

00:20:49.337 --> 00:20:49.417
No,

00:20:49.478 --> 00:20:50.499
I was just going to add to you.

00:20:50.538 --> 00:20:50.919
Like, yeah,

00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:53.361
I totally respect that like open source,

00:20:53.741 --> 00:20:55.763
the licensing side of things and like the

00:20:55.804 --> 00:20:57.525
deep, I say this with love,

00:20:57.565 --> 00:20:58.945
the deep nerdy details like that.

00:20:59.246 --> 00:21:00.366
I think they're very valid and very

00:21:00.386 --> 00:21:02.548
important and I'm not trying to invalidate

00:21:02.568 --> 00:21:03.609
them, but I'm with you.

00:21:03.670 --> 00:21:04.090
For me,

00:21:04.171 --> 00:21:05.652
the important thing is the transparency of

00:21:05.672 --> 00:21:05.971
the code.

00:21:06.031 --> 00:21:06.873
Is the code visible?

00:21:07.173 --> 00:21:08.554
Can people verify that it does what it

00:21:08.574 --> 00:21:09.055
says it does?

00:21:09.394 --> 00:21:10.816
Can people verify that there's no like

00:21:10.915 --> 00:21:13.097
major gaping security holes that it's

00:21:13.137 --> 00:21:14.078
like, like again,

00:21:14.138 --> 00:21:15.780
last pass when that happened and we found

00:21:15.840 --> 00:21:16.721
out everything that was wrong.

00:21:16.740 --> 00:21:17.102
And it's like,

00:21:17.422 --> 00:21:18.682
how the hell did we even end up

00:21:18.722 --> 00:21:18.903
here?

00:21:19.042 --> 00:21:20.444
Like personally,

00:21:20.464 --> 00:21:21.565
that's the important part to me.

00:21:21.625 --> 00:21:22.886
But yeah, I, I mean,

00:21:22.967 --> 00:21:23.787
same thing with Australis.

00:21:23.807 --> 00:21:24.968
Like if I wasn't married,

00:21:25.449 --> 00:21:26.990
that's the main use case I have for

00:21:27.029 --> 00:21:28.672
Bitwarden is like syncing logins with my

00:21:28.711 --> 00:21:29.652
wife and stuff like that.

00:21:29.672 --> 00:21:31.114
So if I wasn't married,

00:21:31.213 --> 00:21:32.394
I'd probably be a little bit more willing

00:21:32.414 --> 00:21:33.234
to like, you know what, let me,

00:21:34.181 --> 00:21:35.622
Let me figure something out with key pass

00:21:35.642 --> 00:21:36.241
that works for me.

00:21:36.281 --> 00:21:37.303
I'm willing to put in that kind of

00:21:37.343 --> 00:21:37.603
work.

00:21:37.682 --> 00:21:39.503
But yeah, for now, I'm not too worried.

00:21:39.523 --> 00:21:42.385
And Lucas loves your latest haircut,

00:21:42.645 --> 00:21:42.926
Jordan.

00:21:43.287 --> 00:21:44.428
So yeah.

00:21:44.448 --> 00:21:46.328
Incredible.

00:21:47.450 --> 00:21:47.809
I think with that,

00:21:47.829 --> 00:21:49.050
we can move on to our next story.

00:21:49.090 --> 00:21:51.392
We're going to head over to France now

00:21:51.451 --> 00:21:53.554
for some unfortunate news.

00:21:55.194 --> 00:21:58.517
France is basically blocking quad nine.

00:21:59.096 --> 00:21:59.978
Kind of, sort of, not really.

00:22:01.048 --> 00:22:01.769
Kind of, sort of, yes.

00:22:01.950 --> 00:22:03.411
So, for those who don't know,

00:22:03.451 --> 00:22:05.653
Quad Nine has, for years now, like,

00:22:05.673 --> 00:22:06.874
this was back when I first started with

00:22:06.894 --> 00:22:07.913
Surveillance Report back in, like,

00:22:07.933 --> 00:22:11.696
that may be a different case,

00:22:11.717 --> 00:22:12.798
but I know Quad Nine was involved.

00:22:13.157 --> 00:22:15.861
They've been in this ongoing lawsuit where

00:22:16.701 --> 00:22:18.643
Europe is really trying to crack down on

00:22:18.782 --> 00:22:19.282
piracy,

00:22:19.864 --> 00:22:22.726
and they decided the easiest way to choke

00:22:22.826 --> 00:22:24.646
off piracy would just be to make it

00:22:24.686 --> 00:22:25.867
harder for everybody to get there.

00:22:25.928 --> 00:22:27.169
Because, you know, to their...

00:22:28.009 --> 00:22:29.151
Tiny little bit of defense.

00:22:30.131 --> 00:22:31.471
When you're talking about trying to crack

00:22:31.491 --> 00:22:33.012
down on international crimes,

00:22:33.733 --> 00:22:35.855
it's really hard because, first of all,

00:22:35.914 --> 00:22:36.955
the thing that they're doing may not

00:22:36.996 --> 00:22:38.497
necessarily be illegal where you are,

00:22:38.957 --> 00:22:39.837
but even if it is,

00:22:39.877 --> 00:22:40.958
it's like now you have to coordinate with

00:22:40.978 --> 00:22:42.980
international law enforcement and the

00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:44.240
country you're coordinating with may have

00:22:44.280 --> 00:22:46.701
bigger problems than trying to catch

00:22:46.741 --> 00:22:47.782
somebody who's streaming a freaking

00:22:47.823 --> 00:22:49.064
football game and stuff like that.

00:22:49.483 --> 00:22:50.704
So France is just like, you know what?

00:22:50.744 --> 00:22:51.924
If we just make it so people can't

00:22:51.944 --> 00:22:53.546
even get to the website, problem solved.

00:22:54.067 --> 00:22:55.347
And I see how they got there,

00:22:55.367 --> 00:22:56.048
but I disagree with it.

00:22:56.448 --> 00:22:56.749
Anyways...

00:22:57.588 --> 00:22:58.088
For some reason,

00:22:58.128 --> 00:22:59.689
Quad Nine is who they chose to target.

00:23:00.130 --> 00:23:00.789
And they said, hey,

00:23:00.890 --> 00:23:02.950
you can no longer resolve requests to go

00:23:02.990 --> 00:23:04.549
to these known piracy websites.

00:23:05.651 --> 00:23:07.310
And Quad Nine has pushed back on that

00:23:07.371 --> 00:23:08.411
in court and been like, no,

00:23:08.510 --> 00:23:10.192
we should not be held liable for that.

00:23:10.592 --> 00:23:11.991
And unfortunately, in France, at least,

00:23:12.112 --> 00:23:13.132
they have lost this lawsuit.

00:23:13.211 --> 00:23:15.432
So I'm going to start reading from this

00:23:15.512 --> 00:23:16.073
EFF article.

00:23:16.113 --> 00:23:17.992
They say Quad Nine, a free DNS resolver,

00:23:18.032 --> 00:23:19.512
has said it will reluctantly stop serving

00:23:19.593 --> 00:23:21.233
users in France on November twenty fourth.

00:23:21.693 --> 00:23:22.854
This follows a French court order that

00:23:22.894 --> 00:23:24.473
Quad Nine must block access to websites

00:23:24.493 --> 00:23:25.474
that are accused of infringing the

00:23:25.515 --> 00:23:26.914
copyrights of a sports broadcaster.

00:23:27.595 --> 00:23:30.457
And it says, just a quick brief,

00:23:30.477 --> 00:23:31.357
when you visit a website,

00:23:31.978 --> 00:23:32.558
for those who don't know,

00:23:32.618 --> 00:23:34.279
a DNS resolver reads your domain you type

00:23:34.339 --> 00:23:36.961
in, such as EFF.org or privacyguides.org,

00:23:37.241 --> 00:23:39.044
translates it into a numerical IP address

00:23:39.064 --> 00:23:40.223
that's used to direct data across the

00:23:40.265 --> 00:23:40.605
internet.

00:23:41.164 --> 00:23:42.766
And a DNS resolver can see the names

00:23:42.806 --> 00:23:43.727
of websites you connect to,

00:23:43.826 --> 00:23:45.208
so its privacy policies are important.

00:23:45.548 --> 00:23:47.450
QuadNine is a non-government organization

00:23:47.470 --> 00:23:48.691
that's incorporated in Switzerland,

00:23:48.790 --> 00:23:50.271
in part to protect its users from data

00:23:50.291 --> 00:23:50.612
demands.

00:23:50.971 --> 00:23:52.433
The company also helps protect users from

00:23:52.473 --> 00:23:53.934
malware and phishing by blocking domains

00:23:53.954 --> 00:23:54.994
that are known to be malicious.

00:23:55.055 --> 00:23:55.435
So this is

00:23:55.955 --> 00:23:57.116
One thing that makes QuadNine really

00:23:57.137 --> 00:23:58.759
attractive is they do not keep logs.

00:23:59.200 --> 00:24:00.260
They are based in Switzerland.

00:24:01.041 --> 00:24:01.823
Years and years ago,

00:24:01.942 --> 00:24:04.204
I actually interviewed their CEO when I

00:24:04.224 --> 00:24:05.086
was with Surveillance Report,

00:24:05.165 --> 00:24:06.248
and he talked about that.

00:24:06.268 --> 00:24:08.490
They moved to Switzerland specifically to

00:24:08.569 --> 00:24:11.272
get the legal protections for privacy.

00:24:12.433 --> 00:24:15.136
But the only thing they block is malware.

00:24:15.657 --> 00:24:16.979
So if...

00:24:17.619 --> 00:24:18.039
Personally,

00:24:18.220 --> 00:24:19.560
I like the ones that block ads,

00:24:19.580 --> 00:24:20.461
the block trackers.

00:24:20.861 --> 00:24:21.622
But if you're like, no,

00:24:21.662 --> 00:24:22.602
I want to handle that myself,

00:24:22.642 --> 00:24:24.323
I want the most uncensored Internet

00:24:24.363 --> 00:24:26.383
possible without opening myself up to

00:24:26.423 --> 00:24:26.643
risk.

00:24:26.762 --> 00:24:28.104
Quad nine is very popular for that.

00:24:29.304 --> 00:24:30.605
In a blog post explaining this decision,

00:24:30.625 --> 00:24:32.045
Quad nine explains that the French court

00:24:32.085 --> 00:24:32.905
ordered to force it

00:24:33.905 --> 00:24:35.767
forces it to make that decision either way

00:24:35.886 --> 00:24:36.788
is bad for its users.

00:24:37.147 --> 00:24:38.428
It could either extend French law to the

00:24:38.448 --> 00:24:40.328
whole world and block the website globally

00:24:40.690 --> 00:24:42.230
or try to identify and block users only

00:24:42.250 --> 00:24:42.611
in France,

00:24:42.871 --> 00:24:44.371
something that it cannot do reliably and a

00:24:44.432 --> 00:24:45.592
move that could leave the company facing

00:24:45.632 --> 00:24:46.913
massive fines if it fails to block

00:24:46.932 --> 00:24:47.893
websites perfectly.

00:24:48.413 --> 00:24:49.614
Quad nine says it is currently facing

00:24:49.634 --> 00:24:50.974
about twenty other lawsuits in France

00:24:50.994 --> 00:24:52.415
seeking similar blocking orders.

00:24:52.875 --> 00:24:53.996
So rather than accept these demands,

00:24:54.036 --> 00:24:55.916
Quad nine has decided to withdraw from its

00:24:55.957 --> 00:24:56.877
service from France.

00:24:57.198 --> 00:24:58.419
That is a real loss for French users

00:24:58.439 --> 00:25:00.059
who rely on the service to protect their

00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:00.880
privacy and security.

00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:02.340
But it is also the right thing to

00:25:02.401 --> 00:25:02.560
do.

00:25:04.076 --> 00:25:05.557
Um, and, uh,

00:25:05.597 --> 00:25:06.678
EFF goes on to point out, they said,

00:25:06.698 --> 00:25:06.917
uh,

00:25:06.938 --> 00:25:09.078
quad nine decision will not remove any

00:25:09.118 --> 00:25:10.440
allegedly infringing material from the

00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:10.799
internet.

00:25:11.059 --> 00:25:12.621
The organization doesn't host websites.

00:25:12.961 --> 00:25:14.342
Users looking for particular websites can

00:25:14.422 --> 00:25:16.143
easily switch to another DNS resolver.

00:25:16.423 --> 00:25:17.864
So the material targeted by the copyright

00:25:17.884 --> 00:25:19.423
holders will remain online and accessible

00:25:19.503 --> 00:25:21.025
even while they drive a privacy protecting

00:25:21.065 --> 00:25:22.306
service out of France.

00:25:22.665 --> 00:25:23.506
And then they go on to point out

00:25:23.526 --> 00:25:24.646
that here in the U S, um,

00:25:25.467 --> 00:25:27.807
The clowns in our Congress – I'm just

00:25:27.827 --> 00:25:29.808
going to go ahead and say that –

00:25:29.067 --> 00:25:31.627
have floated multiple laws about,

00:25:31.647 --> 00:25:32.348
what if we block this?

00:25:32.388 --> 00:25:33.048
What if we block this?

00:25:33.088 --> 00:25:33.749
What if we block this?

00:25:33.769 --> 00:25:35.729
Because – well,

00:25:35.808 --> 00:25:37.210
I think I've been political enough for

00:25:37.230 --> 00:25:37.390
now.

00:25:37.789 --> 00:25:38.329
But yeah,

00:25:38.650 --> 00:25:39.849
so they're kind of reminding people like

00:25:39.890 --> 00:25:41.010
this doesn't work.

00:25:41.211 --> 00:25:42.590
It doesn't get rid of the material.

00:25:42.671 --> 00:25:45.172
It just puts everybody at risk.

00:25:45.451 --> 00:25:47.291
So –

00:25:48.307 --> 00:25:49.470
Sorry, I saw that there was a comment,

00:25:49.490 --> 00:25:50.772
but I didn't read it until just now.

00:25:51.053 --> 00:25:52.256
Good thing France doesn't have any other

00:25:52.316 --> 00:25:53.218
issues going on right now.

00:25:53.818 --> 00:25:54.901
Yeah, like I said, to their defense,

00:25:54.921 --> 00:25:55.803
this happened years ago.

00:25:55.883 --> 00:25:56.845
But yeah,

00:25:56.944 --> 00:25:59.229
probably some bigger fish to fry at the

00:25:59.269 --> 00:25:59.450
moment.

00:26:00.451 --> 00:26:01.892
Uh, anyways, yeah.

00:26:02.112 --> 00:26:02.491
Um, I mean,

00:26:02.613 --> 00:26:03.512
I was going to throw this one over

00:26:03.553 --> 00:26:04.573
to the audience as well,

00:26:04.593 --> 00:26:05.272
but I don't know if you have an

00:26:05.313 --> 00:26:07.794
opinion too, Jordan, like let's,

00:26:07.814 --> 00:26:08.614
for the sake of argument,

00:26:08.653 --> 00:26:10.253
let's go with something we all agree is

00:26:10.314 --> 00:26:10.614
bad.

00:26:10.733 --> 00:26:11.234
Like, you know,

00:26:11.295 --> 00:26:13.694
CSAM should infrastructure providers be

00:26:13.815 --> 00:26:15.935
forced to block illegal content.

00:26:16.776 --> 00:26:17.996
Cause I feel like that's a very slippery

00:26:18.016 --> 00:26:18.316
slope.

00:26:18.355 --> 00:26:20.277
Like Cloudflare also pushed back on this

00:26:20.297 --> 00:26:21.676
when it's like, you know,

00:26:23.075 --> 00:26:24.316
like they've also been pressured to like,

00:26:24.435 --> 00:26:25.916
Oh, don't resolve domains to this.

00:26:25.936 --> 00:26:26.777
And it's like, look, we're just,

00:26:27.157 --> 00:26:28.498
we're not the content moderators.

00:26:28.538 --> 00:26:29.439
We make the internet open.

00:26:29.459 --> 00:26:30.440
And I think as soon as you start

00:26:30.460 --> 00:26:32.461
shutting doors, like, I don't know,

00:26:32.500 --> 00:26:35.502
that's maybe CSAM was a bad example to

00:26:35.522 --> 00:26:37.203
pick when I'm defending free speech,

00:26:37.223 --> 00:26:37.804
but you know what I mean?

00:26:37.844 --> 00:26:40.046
Like if it's something we can all agree

00:26:40.066 --> 00:26:41.046
that should be illegal,

00:26:41.066 --> 00:26:42.346
I don't know if it's, it's,

00:26:42.767 --> 00:26:43.928
I feel like it's a slippery slope when

00:26:43.948 --> 00:26:45.249
you make the infrastructure providers

00:26:45.269 --> 00:26:46.710
start blocking it instead of going after

00:26:46.750 --> 00:26:48.830
the actual hosting providers and the

00:26:48.871 --> 00:26:50.511
people responsible for the content itself,

00:26:50.551 --> 00:26:51.292
you know?

00:26:51.333 --> 00:26:51.452
So.

00:26:53.755 --> 00:26:53.994
Yeah,

00:26:54.055 --> 00:26:55.415
I think this is definitely like one of

00:26:55.455 --> 00:26:57.336
these hotly debated issues where it's

00:26:57.376 --> 00:26:58.417
like, you know,

00:26:58.758 --> 00:27:00.378
how much control do we want to give

00:27:00.459 --> 00:27:01.579
to certain

00:27:02.595 --> 00:27:04.675
levels of internet infrastructure, right?

00:27:04.695 --> 00:27:05.796
Because, you know,

00:27:06.096 --> 00:27:10.617
DNS providers do control some level of

00:27:10.698 --> 00:27:11.617
access to websites.

00:27:11.657 --> 00:27:12.198
But again,

00:27:12.798 --> 00:27:15.058
there's always another alternative to

00:27:15.739 --> 00:27:16.239
QuadNine.

00:27:16.259 --> 00:27:17.440
There's always another alternative to

00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:19.621
Cloudflare that's not going to be blocking

00:27:20.201 --> 00:27:22.020
all these certain, you know,

00:27:22.080 --> 00:27:23.001
DNS resolutions.

00:27:23.122 --> 00:27:23.281
So...

00:27:24.102 --> 00:27:24.321
You know,

00:27:24.561 --> 00:27:26.061
we've had this issue before with

00:27:26.102 --> 00:27:28.863
Cloudflare, not as a DNS service,

00:27:28.903 --> 00:27:31.182
but also as a DDoS protection service,

00:27:32.282 --> 00:27:34.324
because so much of the Internet is reliant

00:27:34.403 --> 00:27:38.023
on Cloudflare to actually protect their

00:27:38.044 --> 00:27:38.584
websites.

00:27:38.663 --> 00:27:40.904
They have somewhat of a large amount of

00:27:40.944 --> 00:27:43.444
control over who can access certain

00:27:43.484 --> 00:27:44.125
websites.

00:27:44.665 --> 00:27:47.486
And, you know, same thing for QuadNine.

00:27:47.506 --> 00:27:50.405
They have a certain level of control over

00:27:50.445 --> 00:27:52.747
who can access whichever websites and

00:27:54.315 --> 00:27:56.036
I think personally it should not be down

00:27:56.096 --> 00:27:58.938
to a DNS provider to decide whether a

00:27:58.978 --> 00:28:01.940
website should be able to be accessed or

00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:02.140
not.

00:28:02.180 --> 00:28:04.941
That's not a decision that should be made

00:28:05.040 --> 00:28:07.082
or forced on a DNS provider.

00:28:08.586 --> 00:28:10.307
Yes, even in the case of like CSAM,

00:28:10.347 --> 00:28:11.548
that should be something that is

00:28:11.588 --> 00:28:15.192
investigated properly and taken with care

00:28:15.251 --> 00:28:15.912
and, you know,

00:28:15.932 --> 00:28:19.575
being investigated at a level of,

00:28:19.634 --> 00:28:19.954
you know,

00:28:20.615 --> 00:28:22.056
finding the actual source of the

00:28:22.096 --> 00:28:24.157
information and the issue, right,

00:28:24.218 --> 00:28:26.940
instead of actually broadly blocking

00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:27.480
information.

00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:29.101
a certain portion of the internet.

00:28:29.861 --> 00:28:30.862
Maybe that's a hot take,

00:28:31.201 --> 00:28:33.863
but I don't think a DNS provider should

00:28:33.883 --> 00:28:36.044
be the gatekeeper of what websites you can

00:28:36.144 --> 00:28:36.544
access.

00:28:36.683 --> 00:28:38.605
And we've already had this problem here in

00:28:38.644 --> 00:28:39.506
Australia.

00:28:39.586 --> 00:28:43.166
Our government forces ISPs to basically

00:28:43.626 --> 00:28:45.288
block certain websites.

00:28:47.272 --> 00:28:48.773
So if you're using your ISP's DNS

00:28:48.814 --> 00:28:49.114
provider,

00:28:49.894 --> 00:28:51.036
a whole bunch of websites that the

00:28:51.056 --> 00:28:53.057
government doesn't like are all blocked.

00:28:53.417 --> 00:28:55.638
So, you know, when you give access,

00:28:55.699 --> 00:28:58.280
when you push this sort of thing on

00:28:58.540 --> 00:28:59.362
DNS providers,

00:28:59.461 --> 00:29:02.964
it does censor some content.

00:29:03.005 --> 00:29:03.404
Obviously,

00:29:03.625 --> 00:29:05.526
you're not actually censoring the actual

00:29:05.547 --> 00:29:05.926
content.

00:29:05.946 --> 00:29:07.307
The content still exists.

00:29:08.442 --> 00:29:09.501
The content still exists.

00:29:09.721 --> 00:29:11.222
It's just not being able to, like,

00:29:11.522 --> 00:29:14.463
the DNS can't, like, resolve.

00:29:14.544 --> 00:29:15.403
So, you know,

00:29:15.443 --> 00:29:17.285
it's not actually solving the problem.

00:29:17.325 --> 00:29:18.025
It's just, you know,

00:29:18.404 --> 00:29:21.165
blocking some people from accessing that

00:29:21.185 --> 00:29:21.586
domain.

00:29:21.645 --> 00:29:23.906
So it doesn't really solve the issue.

00:29:23.946 --> 00:29:26.248
It's, like, not the greatest solution.

00:29:26.307 --> 00:29:27.548
It's kind of like an easy way out.

00:29:28.573 --> 00:29:29.294
Yeah, exactly.

00:29:29.354 --> 00:29:30.075
Like it's, it's,

00:29:30.536 --> 00:29:33.118
it's still able to actually, um, oh,

00:29:33.138 --> 00:29:34.079
we did get a comment here from

00:29:34.140 --> 00:29:35.862
FuriousDragonNineteenSeventySeven.

00:29:35.882 --> 00:29:37.604
Are you going to cover Proton going down

00:29:37.624 --> 00:29:38.125
the shitter?

00:29:38.565 --> 00:29:40.047
Yes, we are later on.

00:29:40.268 --> 00:29:41.950
Um, so please do stay tuned for that.

00:29:42.130 --> 00:29:42.450
Um, but yeah,

00:29:42.470 --> 00:29:43.491
I'll throw it back to you Nate on,

00:29:43.771 --> 00:29:44.272
on that note.

00:29:45.798 --> 00:29:46.199
No, yeah,

00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:47.740
I mean that's all I got too.

00:29:48.162 --> 00:29:48.761
I agree with you.

00:29:48.842 --> 00:29:51.144
I think it's much more effective,

00:29:51.184 --> 00:29:53.126
especially in the case of something really

00:29:53.166 --> 00:29:53.988
horrible like CSAM.

00:29:54.689 --> 00:29:56.150
It's way more effective to actually go

00:29:56.289 --> 00:29:59.953
after the person doing the bad thing than

00:29:59.953 --> 00:30:01.695
– this is just – I complain all

00:30:01.715 --> 00:30:03.878
the time, and I think we all do,

00:30:03.919 --> 00:30:05.599
about lazy politicians with age

00:30:05.619 --> 00:30:06.602
verification laws, right?

00:30:07.162 --> 00:30:07.241
oh,

00:30:07.261 --> 00:30:08.662
we'll just require everyone to hand over

00:30:08.701 --> 00:30:10.202
an ID and that'll solve all the problems

00:30:10.222 --> 00:30:10.762
with the internet.

00:30:10.782 --> 00:30:13.163
And it's like, no, that's just a lazy,

00:30:13.203 --> 00:30:15.044
catchy soundbite by people who don't

00:30:15.104 --> 00:30:16.003
understand the internet,

00:30:16.223 --> 00:30:17.525
who just want to get reelected.

00:30:17.805 --> 00:30:18.724
And it's the same thing with this.

00:30:18.744 --> 00:30:19.265
It's like, well,

00:30:19.565 --> 00:30:21.046
if we stop people from going to the

00:30:21.066 --> 00:30:23.125
piracy websites, same thing, right?

00:30:23.205 --> 00:30:25.547
And it's like, no, there's a balance.

00:30:25.567 --> 00:30:26.567
There's always the argument that like,

00:30:26.586 --> 00:30:26.707
well,

00:30:26.727 --> 00:30:27.946
people are going to find a way anyways.

00:30:28.267 --> 00:30:29.067
But it's also like, yeah,

00:30:29.087 --> 00:30:30.407
but if you make it too hard,

00:30:31.627 --> 00:30:32.489
there's a balance to it.

00:30:32.509 --> 00:30:33.669
And it's like, is it really worth...

00:30:34.833 --> 00:30:37.493
that, that slippery slope of, you know,

00:30:37.513 --> 00:30:40.016
you could block anything like today.

00:30:40.056 --> 00:30:40.915
It starts, you know, it's,

00:30:40.935 --> 00:30:41.896
we see this all the time with like

00:30:41.977 --> 00:30:42.656
us laws, right?

00:30:42.696 --> 00:30:43.096
Like, Oh,

00:30:43.356 --> 00:30:44.298
we're only going to use this for like

00:30:44.317 --> 00:30:46.378
terrorism and drugs and CSAM.

00:30:46.719 --> 00:30:48.920
And then also somebody stole a car and

00:30:48.940 --> 00:30:50.221
then also arson.

00:30:50.300 --> 00:30:52.321
And then also now it's protesters

00:30:52.682 --> 00:30:54.482
exercising their peaceful first amendment

00:30:54.502 --> 00:30:54.782
rights.

00:30:54.803 --> 00:30:57.364
And it's just, just goes downhill so fast.

00:30:57.664 --> 00:30:58.744
So, so, so fast.

00:30:59.526 --> 00:30:59.806
Yeah.

00:31:01.067 --> 00:31:02.807
Oh, we did have a question here.

00:31:03.429 --> 00:31:03.929
We had somebody...

00:31:03.989 --> 00:31:06.111
I think they said that was the barcode

00:31:06.131 --> 00:31:06.651
for Red Bull.

00:31:06.750 --> 00:31:07.491
So I'm just going to call you Red

00:31:07.511 --> 00:31:08.992
Bull from now on.

00:31:09.012 --> 00:31:09.333
They said,

00:31:09.953 --> 00:31:11.115
just wondering what you guys think about

00:31:11.214 --> 00:31:13.435
TwoFAS and their new password manager.

00:31:13.536 --> 00:31:14.396
I didn't even know they had a new

00:31:14.436 --> 00:31:15.116
password manager.

00:31:15.238 --> 00:31:15.458
I know...

00:31:17.546 --> 00:31:19.008
It says they're free and open source,

00:31:19.028 --> 00:31:20.348
but they don't have a security audit yet.

00:31:20.729 --> 00:31:23.152
I know two FAS is not super recommended

00:31:23.271 --> 00:31:24.432
as far as a two factor app.

00:31:24.472 --> 00:31:25.554
Cause I think there's some, um,

00:31:26.335 --> 00:31:27.696
like there's a little bit of metadata,

00:31:27.717 --> 00:31:28.436
if I remember correctly,

00:31:28.457 --> 00:31:29.739
a little bit of analytics and there's just

00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:30.759
kind of like better options,

00:31:30.859 --> 00:31:32.501
but that's kind of all I know about

00:31:32.541 --> 00:31:32.602
it.

00:31:32.622 --> 00:31:33.563
I don't know if you know anything I

00:31:33.583 --> 00:31:33.702
don't.

00:31:34.840 --> 00:31:35.101
Yes,

00:31:35.121 --> 00:31:36.903
so I've been following this for a while.

00:31:37.443 --> 00:31:38.565
I know a little bit more about it,

00:31:38.625 --> 00:31:40.467
but there was a thread on the forum

00:31:40.507 --> 00:31:43.009
about adding this to FAS as a two-factor

00:31:43.108 --> 00:31:44.170
app, specifically,

00:31:44.210 --> 00:31:45.571
not related to the password manager,

00:31:45.592 --> 00:31:46.673
just the two-factor app.

00:31:48.574 --> 00:31:52.458
As of October, when the tool was rejected,

00:31:53.058 --> 00:31:56.481
there was an issue with basically

00:31:58.961 --> 00:32:01.903
the storage of the cloud kit data of

00:32:01.943 --> 00:32:05.465
the actual um to fas like database wasn't

00:32:05.486 --> 00:32:07.406
being encrypted if you had advanced data

00:32:07.426 --> 00:32:09.008
protection on and

00:32:10.355 --> 00:32:10.776
Basically,

00:32:10.816 --> 00:32:13.459
it wasn't end-to-end encrypting the actual

00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:14.900
sync data,

00:32:15.099 --> 00:32:16.541
which was kind of a problem for a

00:32:16.561 --> 00:32:17.241
IIFA app.

00:32:17.402 --> 00:32:19.064
So that's the reason why it got rejected.

00:32:19.805 --> 00:32:22.067
EnteAuth and Aegis are the only ones that

00:32:22.086 --> 00:32:23.107
are recommended currently.

00:32:23.508 --> 00:32:24.749
So for that specifically,

00:32:25.210 --> 00:32:26.550
IIFAS is not recommended.

00:32:26.891 --> 00:32:27.912
I'm not sure if that's changed.

00:32:28.011 --> 00:32:29.272
We haven't looked into it again.

00:32:29.534 --> 00:32:31.494
So maybe they've fixed this again.

00:32:32.576 --> 00:32:34.119
If someone wants to get this re-added on

00:32:34.140 --> 00:32:34.580
the website,

00:32:34.601 --> 00:32:36.724
they can a hundred percent just go re-add

00:32:36.744 --> 00:32:38.269
that as a forum thread,

00:32:38.588 --> 00:32:40.173
get that discussion happening,

00:32:41.013 --> 00:32:42.436
but currently they're not recommended.

00:32:44.203 --> 00:32:47.067
I think it's definitely one of these

00:32:47.086 --> 00:32:49.049
things where take a look at the forum.

00:32:49.269 --> 00:32:50.852
If there's a tool that you're looking at

00:32:50.872 --> 00:32:52.192
that you're considering,

00:32:52.834 --> 00:32:54.194
just search up the name of it.

00:32:54.435 --> 00:32:55.977
It's probably being discussed at some

00:32:56.017 --> 00:32:58.259
point.

00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:02.023
I can't comment on ToFAS password manager.

00:33:03.382 --> 00:33:04.103
I'd never heard of it.

00:33:04.343 --> 00:33:05.144
It sounds interesting.

00:33:05.663 --> 00:33:06.565
But again,

00:33:06.744 --> 00:33:07.726
if that's something you want people to

00:33:07.746 --> 00:33:08.226
look into,

00:33:08.246 --> 00:33:10.067
I would open a forum thread for that.

00:33:10.887 --> 00:33:11.509
But quickly,

00:33:11.709 --> 00:33:14.030
we did get a gift membership from Sod

00:33:14.050 --> 00:33:14.550
This All,

00:33:14.590 --> 00:33:17.394
and they also resubscribed for ten months.

00:33:17.433 --> 00:33:18.074
Loving the stream.

00:33:18.233 --> 00:33:19.174
Keep up the good work.

00:33:19.375 --> 00:33:21.797
Thank you so much again, Sod This All,

00:33:21.817 --> 00:33:24.118
for those memberships.

00:33:24.219 --> 00:33:24.720
And it looks like

00:33:24.779 --> 00:33:27.001
FuriousDragonNineteenSeventySeven just got

00:33:27.082 --> 00:33:29.364
gifted a membership.

00:33:29.483 --> 00:33:29.743
Awesome.

00:33:30.972 --> 00:33:31.534
Yeah, for sure.

00:33:32.336 --> 00:33:32.756
I think with that,

00:33:32.776 --> 00:33:34.539
we can go ahead and move into the

00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:35.520
site updates.

00:33:37.489 --> 00:33:38.588
All right, sounds good.

00:33:38.689 --> 00:33:40.190
So before we dive into any of the

00:33:40.210 --> 00:33:43.411
chaos going over on at Proton and what

00:33:43.431 --> 00:33:44.731
it means for the privacy community,

00:33:44.811 --> 00:33:46.571
let's give some quick updates with what

00:33:46.592 --> 00:33:48.492
we've been working on in the privacy

00:33:49.153 --> 00:33:51.814
guides, at privacy guides this week.

00:33:51.933 --> 00:33:53.035
Remember to leave your questions and

00:33:53.055 --> 00:33:54.355
comments in the chat and we'll get to

00:33:54.394 --> 00:33:55.596
them in a moment.

00:33:55.836 --> 00:33:56.576
But first,

00:33:57.155 --> 00:33:59.596
throw this over to Nate to discuss some

00:33:59.616 --> 00:34:01.557
of the video changes that we've been

00:34:01.657 --> 00:34:02.097
working on.

00:34:03.567 --> 00:34:04.548
Yeah, there's not too much.

00:34:04.607 --> 00:34:05.108
This has, again,

00:34:05.169 --> 00:34:06.809
been one of those slower weeks where

00:34:06.829 --> 00:34:08.711
there's a lot of stuff going on behind

00:34:08.731 --> 00:34:10.333
the scenes and stuff will be coming out

00:34:10.373 --> 00:34:10.974
to you guys soon.

00:34:11.875 --> 00:34:12.815
Our interview,

00:34:13.237 --> 00:34:14.978
Jonah's interview with Obscura VPN's

00:34:14.998 --> 00:34:16.840
founder should be up pretty soon.

00:34:18.081 --> 00:34:18.722
I'll be honest,

00:34:18.762 --> 00:34:20.164
I haven't actually listened to it yet,

00:34:20.184 --> 00:34:21.465
but I'm excited to because...

00:34:23.146 --> 00:34:24.606
I pulled up the project very briefly

00:34:24.646 --> 00:34:26.628
because I had to add the intro and

00:34:26.648 --> 00:34:27.148
the outro.

00:34:27.268 --> 00:34:29.771
And there were a lot of questions.

00:34:29.911 --> 00:34:31.170
There were so many questions.

00:34:31.210 --> 00:34:33.273
So I think it was probably pretty

00:34:33.313 --> 00:34:33.733
thorough.

00:34:33.873 --> 00:34:35.853
And yeah,

00:34:35.873 --> 00:34:37.034
just excited to share that one with you

00:34:37.054 --> 00:34:37.315
guys.

00:34:37.755 --> 00:34:40.036
And then I am actually working on an

00:34:40.056 --> 00:34:41.097
Obtanium tutorial.

00:34:41.338 --> 00:34:42.637
So I just wanted to throw it out

00:34:42.657 --> 00:34:42.759
there.

00:34:42.778 --> 00:34:45.420
If you guys have any specific questions or

00:34:45.500 --> 00:34:46.481
tips that I should include,

00:34:46.521 --> 00:34:47.380
definitely let me know.

00:34:48.882 --> 00:34:50.202
I'm excited for this video because I'm an

00:34:50.222 --> 00:34:50.963
Obtanium user.

00:34:51.523 --> 00:34:54.806
And I'm not afraid to read the

00:34:54.826 --> 00:34:55.347
instructions,

00:34:55.387 --> 00:34:56.467
but I kind of only do it if

00:34:56.527 --> 00:34:57.248
I have questions.

00:34:57.708 --> 00:34:59.369
And when I started using Obtanium,

00:34:59.449 --> 00:35:00.690
I felt like it was pretty intuitive.

00:35:00.730 --> 00:35:01.911
So I was just like, all right, cool.

00:35:01.931 --> 00:35:03.351
So I just downloaded it and started using

00:35:03.431 --> 00:35:03.492
it.

00:35:04.233 --> 00:35:05.293
But now that I'm making this video,

00:35:05.313 --> 00:35:06.773
I'm really digging into like what it's

00:35:06.813 --> 00:35:08.215
capable of and how to like, quote unquote,

00:35:08.375 --> 00:35:09.096
use it properly.

00:35:09.536 --> 00:35:10.536
And I'm like, oh my God,

00:35:10.717 --> 00:35:12.657
I have not been taking full advantage of

00:35:12.697 --> 00:35:13.137
this app.

00:35:13.157 --> 00:35:14.840
This app can do so many things.

00:35:15.420 --> 00:35:16.760
And so I'm excited to share that with

00:35:16.780 --> 00:35:17.081
you guys.

00:35:19.242 --> 00:35:20.682
Yeah, and then last but not least,

00:35:21.143 --> 00:35:22.724
I believe I did mention in the past

00:35:22.764 --> 00:35:24.425
we are working on a Graphene OS video,

00:35:24.485 --> 00:35:26.405
which is off to Jordan now.

00:35:26.445 --> 00:35:27.385
Jordan is editing that,

00:35:27.626 --> 00:35:30.766
and it's hopefully going to be really

00:35:30.786 --> 00:35:31.007
cool,

00:35:31.106 --> 00:35:32.068
and hopefully you guys are going to like

00:35:32.128 --> 00:35:33.668
it and be able to share it with

00:35:33.708 --> 00:35:35.568
people who don't know what Graphene OS is

00:35:35.588 --> 00:35:36.489
and be able to be like,

00:35:36.869 --> 00:35:38.010
here's why you should use this phone,

00:35:38.030 --> 00:35:39.130
because I really tried to hype it up.

00:35:40.190 --> 00:35:41.331
Not like that's hard to do, but...

00:35:42.273 --> 00:35:42.554
Yeah.

00:35:44.657 --> 00:35:45.458
And again, a reminder,

00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:46.541
we will talk about Proton.

00:35:46.581 --> 00:35:47.362
I do see the comments.

00:35:47.543 --> 00:35:48.023
But with that,

00:35:48.043 --> 00:35:49.164
I'll go ahead and turn it over to

00:35:49.224 --> 00:35:50.568
Jordan to let you guys know what else

00:35:50.608 --> 00:35:52.711
has happened this week behind the scenes.

00:35:53.601 --> 00:35:54.201
Yeah, definitely.

00:35:54.641 --> 00:35:56.682
So this week's kind of a slow week,

00:35:57.103 --> 00:35:58.003
mostly like, you know,

00:35:58.083 --> 00:36:00.005
administrative changes.

00:36:00.144 --> 00:36:03.126
There's definitely some site changes that

00:36:03.146 --> 00:36:03.708
are happening.

00:36:04.527 --> 00:36:07.170
There was just a couple of small updates

00:36:08.190 --> 00:36:09.692
this week, which was, you know,

00:36:09.711 --> 00:36:10.652
correcting some grammar,

00:36:11.072 --> 00:36:12.393
fixing a source code link,

00:36:12.853 --> 00:36:14.175
pretty small changes this week,

00:36:14.795 --> 00:36:17.237
but changes nonetheless.

00:36:17.456 --> 00:36:19.518
And there's definitely some more pull

00:36:19.557 --> 00:36:22.199
requests that are in the pipeline.

00:36:22.619 --> 00:36:24.920
for changes that are coming soon.

00:36:26.201 --> 00:36:28.922
I did author a pull request for Obscura

00:36:28.942 --> 00:36:29.342
VPN.

00:36:29.362 --> 00:36:30.621
We're not sure if that's going to actually

00:36:30.681 --> 00:36:31.983
happen or if it's going to be added,

00:36:32.023 --> 00:36:34.702
but it's something we're looking at at

00:36:34.742 --> 00:36:35.304
this point.

00:36:36.204 --> 00:36:38.423
I will also say there's been more articles

00:36:38.463 --> 00:36:39.184
posted this week.

00:36:39.264 --> 00:36:41.465
Again, privacyguides.org slash news.

00:36:41.485 --> 00:36:44.326
We always post news updates,

00:36:44.465 --> 00:36:46.306
and that's usually done by Freya and Nate.

00:36:46.367 --> 00:36:49.106
So this week we had quite a few

00:36:49.347 --> 00:36:50.688
great stories posted

00:36:51.487 --> 00:36:52.128
From Freya,

00:36:52.188 --> 00:36:54.730
so SystemD adds Rust program support.

00:36:55.251 --> 00:36:57.713
Apple introduces selfie age verification

00:36:57.753 --> 00:36:59.273
in iOS twenty seven point two.

00:37:00.173 --> 00:37:02.115
Nate did another data breach roundup the

00:37:02.135 --> 00:37:05.478
other day and Reddit announces migration

00:37:05.538 --> 00:37:08.840
to a primary logged in experience.

00:37:10.289 --> 00:37:11.570
all really interesting stuff,

00:37:11.610 --> 00:37:13.550
but definitely keep an eye on the

00:37:13.610 --> 00:37:16.670
privacyguides.org slash news page for some

00:37:16.690 --> 00:37:18.952
of the latest updates in the privacy

00:37:18.992 --> 00:37:19.411
space.

00:37:19.672 --> 00:37:20.172
So yeah,

00:37:20.211 --> 00:37:21.311
all this is made possible by our

00:37:21.331 --> 00:37:22.672
supporters and you can sign up for a

00:37:22.711 --> 00:37:24.813
membership or donate at privacyguides.org

00:37:25.233 --> 00:37:26.313
or pick up some swag at

00:37:26.333 --> 00:37:28.293
shop.privacyguides.org.

00:37:28.672 --> 00:37:30.454
Privacy Guides is a non-profit which

00:37:30.534 --> 00:37:32.753
researches and shares privacy-related

00:37:32.793 --> 00:37:35.074
information and facilitates a community on

00:37:35.175 --> 00:37:36.695
our forum and website.

00:37:36.875 --> 00:37:38.998
matrix where people can ask questions and

00:37:39.038 --> 00:37:40.860
get advice about staying private online

00:37:41.300 --> 00:37:43.643
and preserving their digital rights now

00:37:43.684 --> 00:37:46.387
let's talk about a quick discord update

00:37:46.567 --> 00:37:49.331
worth having on your radar and just

00:37:49.510 --> 00:37:51.253
another reminder remember to leave your

00:37:51.273 --> 00:37:52.954
questions in the chat and we'll get to

00:37:52.974 --> 00:37:55.257
them in between stories

00:37:57.708 --> 00:38:00.090
I am excited for the Proton story later

00:38:00.130 --> 00:38:02.132
because we're literally getting updates as

00:38:02.172 --> 00:38:02.713
we talk.

00:38:02.994 --> 00:38:03.173
Like,

00:38:03.255 --> 00:38:05.117
I just checked one of my Signal group

00:38:05.137 --> 00:38:07.639
chats and apparently Andy has put out a

00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:09.260
statement on Reddit that I guess we'll all

00:38:09.302 --> 00:38:11.184
read together because it's a little bit

00:38:11.224 --> 00:38:12.264
long and I don't have the...

00:38:13.286 --> 00:38:15.206
I don't have the brain to do this

00:38:15.266 --> 00:38:16.786
while also reading that.

00:38:16.827 --> 00:38:17.608
So yeah,

00:38:17.628 --> 00:38:18.668
we'll get to that a little later and

00:38:18.708 --> 00:38:19.788
we'll find out together guys.

00:38:20.688 --> 00:38:25.230
But yeah, for now let's talk about this.

00:38:25.250 --> 00:38:25.289
Oh,

00:38:25.309 --> 00:38:26.271
I should have sent the link to you

00:38:26.431 --> 00:38:27.550
while, while I was doing that.

00:38:27.931 --> 00:38:29.052
But yeah, anyway, sorry.

00:38:29.072 --> 00:38:30.092
We'll talk about discord real quick.

00:38:30.112 --> 00:38:31.092
This is actually a really,

00:38:31.112 --> 00:38:31.893
really quick story.

00:38:32.813 --> 00:38:35.653
Basically it's still a worse,

00:38:35.753 --> 00:38:36.775
a story worth knowing about.

00:38:36.875 --> 00:38:37.074
Yeah.

00:38:38.014 --> 00:38:39.516
Discord is now making its public

00:38:39.556 --> 00:38:40.635
communities more searchable,

00:38:41.096 --> 00:38:42.356
and people have concerns,

00:38:42.376 --> 00:38:44.597
which if you are not a consistent Discord

00:38:44.677 --> 00:38:45.398
user like me,

00:38:46.577 --> 00:38:47.918
like I'm not a consistent user,

00:38:48.318 --> 00:38:51.659
this sounds a lot more worrying than it

00:38:52.059 --> 00:38:52.460
is.

00:38:52.820 --> 00:38:53.559
Like, it's still bad,

00:38:54.181 --> 00:38:56.081
and I definitely want the audience's

00:38:56.101 --> 00:38:56.701
opinion on this,

00:38:57.222 --> 00:38:58.581
but it kind of sounds like it's saying

00:38:58.722 --> 00:39:00.362
any public server is going to be visible

00:39:00.382 --> 00:39:01.083
to everyone, right?

00:39:01.123 --> 00:39:02.844
And it's not quite like that.

00:39:03.324 --> 00:39:03.423
So...

00:39:04.463 --> 00:39:05.043
Anyways, we'll read this.

00:39:05.063 --> 00:39:06.264
So Discord announced on Tuesday it will

00:39:06.284 --> 00:39:07.625
make some conversations in its public

00:39:07.644 --> 00:39:09.326
servers searchable and easier to find on

00:39:09.346 --> 00:39:09.786
the internet.

00:39:10.746 --> 00:39:12.686
The new update targets conversations in

00:39:12.746 --> 00:39:13.907
discoverable servers,

00:39:14.288 --> 00:39:15.967
public Discord servers that administrators

00:39:16.007 --> 00:39:17.489
have made eligible to appear in the

00:39:17.528 --> 00:39:19.449
platform's server discovery feature.

00:39:19.809 --> 00:39:21.469
So I've used a little bit of Discord

00:39:21.489 --> 00:39:21.909
over the years.

00:39:22.070 --> 00:39:23.811
And just to clarify,

00:39:23.851 --> 00:39:24.972
this doesn't affect DMs.

00:39:25.251 --> 00:39:26.492
This doesn't affect private servers.

00:39:26.831 --> 00:39:28.253
Even if you're in a server set to

00:39:28.313 --> 00:39:28.713
public,

00:39:30.085 --> 00:39:32.347
your admin has to opt in to being

00:39:32.407 --> 00:39:33.367
a public community,

00:39:34.068 --> 00:39:35.989
which even that requires a certain amount

00:39:36.009 --> 00:39:36.690
of like, you have to have,

00:39:36.730 --> 00:39:37.190
I think like,

00:39:38.070 --> 00:39:39.811
like a thousand members or something.

00:39:40.030 --> 00:39:41.492
And, you know, something like that.

00:39:41.512 --> 00:39:42.793
Like there's, there's requirements.

00:39:42.813 --> 00:39:43.853
You can't just flip it on.

00:39:44.313 --> 00:39:47.856
So this affects a very narrow range of

00:39:47.896 --> 00:39:48.295
servers,

00:39:48.755 --> 00:39:50.097
narrow range in terms of the number of

00:39:50.197 --> 00:39:50.956
overall servers,

00:39:51.998 --> 00:39:53.199
but not very narrow because a lot of

00:39:53.219 --> 00:39:55.179
them have like tens of thousands or

00:39:55.239 --> 00:39:56.621
hundreds of thousands of users, I think.

00:39:57.541 --> 00:39:58.442
Anyways, back to the article.

00:39:58.862 --> 00:40:00.443
So the stated aim is to help people

00:40:00.463 --> 00:40:01.684
find useful information that might

00:40:01.744 --> 00:40:03.184
otherwise remain buried in Discord

00:40:03.204 --> 00:40:04.585
conversations to a wider audience.

00:40:04.664 --> 00:40:05.365
According to Discord,

00:40:05.385 --> 00:40:06.567
more than sixty three thousand

00:40:06.586 --> 00:40:08.467
discoverable servers host discussions on

00:40:08.507 --> 00:40:09.728
everything from gaming strategies and

00:40:09.768 --> 00:40:11.268
fandoms to language learning and niche

00:40:11.329 --> 00:40:11.730
interests.

00:40:12.030 --> 00:40:13.291
By making some of these conversations

00:40:13.331 --> 00:40:13.670
searchable,

00:40:13.690 --> 00:40:15.092
Discord hopes to extend the reach of its

00:40:15.112 --> 00:40:16.472
communities beyond the platform itself.

00:40:17.233 --> 00:40:18.114
So they're talking about the wider

00:40:18.153 --> 00:40:18.373
internet.

00:40:18.393 --> 00:40:19.074
They're talking about like,

00:40:19.855 --> 00:40:20.755
which I'm actually going to touch on this

00:40:20.815 --> 00:40:21.775
in a second, like right now,

00:40:22.456 --> 00:40:23.177
or maybe not right now,

00:40:23.197 --> 00:40:24.398
because Google's all in on AI.

00:40:24.458 --> 00:40:25.958
But up until recently,

00:40:26.018 --> 00:40:27.659
if you go to Google or any decent

00:40:27.679 --> 00:40:29.481
search engine and you type in, you know,

00:40:30.461 --> 00:40:32.083
I don't know how to how to replace

00:40:32.103 --> 00:40:32.682
my shoelaces.

00:40:32.702 --> 00:40:32.943
I don't know.

00:40:32.963 --> 00:40:33.884
I'm just picking something random.

00:40:34.965 --> 00:40:35.465
A lot of the time,

00:40:35.485 --> 00:40:37.166
it would not be uncommon to get Reddit

00:40:37.206 --> 00:40:37.565
results.

00:40:37.806 --> 00:40:38.067
Right.

00:40:38.666 --> 00:40:40.108
And I think that's what they're trying to

00:40:40.128 --> 00:40:40.989
do is the same thing.

00:40:41.028 --> 00:40:43.010
Like now it'll be like a discord result

00:40:43.130 --> 00:40:43.690
will pop up.

00:40:44.951 --> 00:40:46.532
It says this move on that note also

00:40:46.572 --> 00:40:47.753
taps into the appeal of traditional

00:40:47.793 --> 00:40:49.175
internet forums where users can find

00:40:49.255 --> 00:40:50.536
answers by searching through publicly

00:40:50.556 --> 00:40:51.456
accessible discussions.

00:40:51.777 --> 00:40:53.038
Gaming communities could draw attention to

00:40:53.077 --> 00:40:53.438
walkthroughs,

00:40:53.478 --> 00:40:54.619
developers could reach more people with

00:40:54.659 --> 00:40:55.260
technical advice,

00:40:55.519 --> 00:40:56.880
and content creators could attract new

00:40:56.960 --> 00:40:58.501
audiences without relying solely on

00:40:58.541 --> 00:41:01.804
Discord's internal discovery tools.

00:41:01.824 --> 00:41:03.385
So this will roll out November sixteenth.

00:41:03.806 --> 00:41:05.266
Each server will have its own web page.

00:41:05.306 --> 00:41:06.668
Discoverable server will have its own web

00:41:06.708 --> 00:41:06.949
page,

00:41:07.228 --> 00:41:08.650
which may feature automated summaries of

00:41:08.670 --> 00:41:09.931
discussions and active channels,

00:41:10.490 --> 00:41:11.052
public channels.

00:41:11.396 --> 00:41:12.237
Beginning in mid-December,

00:41:12.277 --> 00:41:13.639
selected messages from public channels may

00:41:13.739 --> 00:41:15.019
also appear in search engine results.

00:41:15.721 --> 00:41:16.481
Here's an important part.

00:41:16.541 --> 00:41:17.663
Server administrators will be able to

00:41:17.682 --> 00:41:18.844
choose which channels are included,

00:41:19.164 --> 00:41:20.646
and individual members can opt out of

00:41:20.666 --> 00:41:21.867
having their messages made publicly

00:41:21.907 --> 00:41:22.266
searchable.

00:41:22.586 --> 00:41:23.728
So if you are in one of these

00:41:23.748 --> 00:41:24.208
servers,

00:41:24.809 --> 00:41:26.271
make sure your admins know about this,

00:41:26.451 --> 00:41:28.492
and you go ahead and opt out yourself.

00:41:29.313 --> 00:41:30.655
Again, private servers, direct messages,

00:41:30.675 --> 00:41:32.335
and group direct messages are excluded.

00:41:32.976 --> 00:41:33.157
And...

00:41:34.750 --> 00:41:36.851
What was I about to say?

00:41:37.190 --> 00:41:37.791
It'll come back to me.

00:41:38.510 --> 00:41:39.771
I want to skip to the end here.

00:41:39.891 --> 00:41:41.251
It says Discord users can manage the

00:41:41.271 --> 00:41:42.793
preferences and settings while server

00:41:42.813 --> 00:41:44.313
administrators can retain control over

00:41:44.353 --> 00:41:45.333
which channels participate.

00:41:45.733 --> 00:41:46.114
Notably,

00:41:46.134 --> 00:41:47.614
the option to make messages discoverable

00:41:47.673 --> 00:41:49.195
is turned off by default in the EU,

00:41:49.355 --> 00:41:50.775
UK, Canada, Brazil, Australia,

00:41:50.795 --> 00:41:51.856
and South Korea because of legal

00:41:51.896 --> 00:41:52.396
restrictions,

00:41:52.675 --> 00:41:54.476
and teen users are also excluded from the

00:41:54.516 --> 00:41:54.777
feature.

00:41:55.157 --> 00:41:56.197
So I just want to take a moment

00:41:56.217 --> 00:41:56.998
there to say that...

00:41:58.018 --> 00:41:59.679
I am well aware that laws are not

00:41:59.699 --> 00:42:00.820
a silver bullet that do not solve

00:42:00.860 --> 00:42:01.219
everything.

00:42:01.561 --> 00:42:02.161
But clearly,

00:42:02.742 --> 00:42:04.563
if America had some decent privacy laws,

00:42:04.862 --> 00:42:06.123
this would be off by default.

00:42:06.184 --> 00:42:06.543
And honestly,

00:42:06.563 --> 00:42:07.585
they probably wouldn't even roll it out

00:42:07.605 --> 00:42:08.786
because so many people would have it off

00:42:08.806 --> 00:42:09.286
by default.

00:42:09.326 --> 00:42:11.728
They wouldn't – like how many people are

00:42:11.748 --> 00:42:12.389
really going to opt in?

00:42:12.568 --> 00:42:14.289
But yeah, it's – oh,

00:42:14.409 --> 00:42:15.130
I remember what I was going to say.

00:42:15.510 --> 00:42:16.472
I remember when I was talking about this

00:42:16.492 --> 00:42:18.072
with my wife who's a pretty heavy Discord

00:42:18.132 --> 00:42:18.313
user,

00:42:18.393 --> 00:42:21.794
and she kind of wondered about like –

00:42:21.364 --> 00:42:22.146
a lot of the time when you join

00:42:22.166 --> 00:42:22.826
a bigger community,

00:42:22.885 --> 00:42:24.106
you'll end up in like a waiting room

00:42:24.786 --> 00:42:27.309
and you have to like react with a

00:42:27.349 --> 00:42:28.750
certain emoji or like fill out a

00:42:28.789 --> 00:42:29.771
questionnaire or something.

00:42:29.871 --> 00:42:31.211
And that's what gets you access to the

00:42:31.231 --> 00:42:31.811
rest of the server.

00:42:32.652 --> 00:42:34.393
I have a feeling this will not work

00:42:34.434 --> 00:42:35.695
because this is being rolled out by

00:42:35.775 --> 00:42:36.614
Discord itself.

00:42:37.695 --> 00:42:38.797
I don't think that's going to stop this

00:42:38.836 --> 00:42:39.237
indexing.

00:42:39.277 --> 00:42:41.858
Discord is very easily able to bypass

00:42:41.878 --> 00:42:42.079
that.

00:42:42.119 --> 00:42:44.340
So that is a really useful feature for

00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:45.161
weeding out spam.

00:42:45.701 --> 00:42:47.101
It's fifty fifty effective,

00:42:47.583 --> 00:42:49.063
but I don't think that's going to stop

00:42:49.083 --> 00:42:49.724
this indexing.

00:42:49.784 --> 00:42:51.105
So be sure to go in and

00:42:52.326 --> 00:42:53.726
opt out of that if you don't want

00:42:53.766 --> 00:42:54.467
to be part of it.

00:42:54.947 --> 00:42:58.230
And yeah, I guess we're mostly just,

00:42:58.329 --> 00:42:58.550
again,

00:42:58.590 --> 00:43:00.311
signal boosting this to let people know,

00:43:00.871 --> 00:43:02.172
go ahead and opt out or switch over

00:43:02.193 --> 00:43:03.114
to something like Fluxer.

00:43:03.193 --> 00:43:04.474
You can join the privacy guides community

00:43:04.494 --> 00:43:05.074
if you want to.

00:43:05.976 --> 00:43:06.876
We're pretty active there.

00:43:07.577 --> 00:43:08.438
And yeah,

00:43:08.458 --> 00:43:11.219
so the last thought I had is somebody

00:43:11.239 --> 00:43:12.481
said Reddit sock tanked about thirty

00:43:12.521 --> 00:43:13.041
percent today.

00:43:13.501 --> 00:43:14.523
I kind of wonder if this

00:43:15.936 --> 00:43:18.599
is related to reddit um because now that

00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:20.199
reddit is we didn't have time for it

00:43:20.219 --> 00:43:21.422
but there's another article about how now

00:43:21.481 --> 00:43:23.063
reddit's going fully like you have to be

00:43:23.103 --> 00:43:25.264
logged into view anything um they're

00:43:26.166 --> 00:43:27.748
probably final stage of certification

00:43:27.768 --> 00:43:28.668
that's not true they'll find a way to

00:43:28.688 --> 00:43:30.490
make it worse but um you know i

00:43:30.530 --> 00:43:31.692
almost wonder if this is a response to

00:43:31.711 --> 00:43:33.494
that like oh look now there's a um

00:43:34.355 --> 00:43:35.856
now there's like a void in the market

00:43:35.896 --> 00:43:37.257
that we can take advantage of so

00:43:38.139 --> 00:43:39.561
Yeah, I don't know.

00:43:39.581 --> 00:43:40.943
I guess that's where they're at.

00:43:40.963 --> 00:43:41.403
Jordan,

00:43:41.463 --> 00:43:43.467
is there anything that I missed on this

00:43:43.567 --> 00:43:43.686
one?

00:43:44.688 --> 00:43:45.389
And viewers as well,

00:43:45.429 --> 00:43:46.992
do you think this is an okay compromise

00:43:47.032 --> 00:43:48.413
like being just large communities?

00:43:48.432 --> 00:43:49.554
Do you think it's a disaster waiting to

00:43:49.574 --> 00:43:49.954
happen?

00:43:50.496 --> 00:43:50.976
How do we feel?

00:43:52.298 --> 00:43:52.679
I mean,

00:43:52.820 --> 00:43:54.541
I think one of the main issues that

00:43:54.561 --> 00:43:57.023
a lot of people have with Discord itself

00:43:57.143 --> 00:43:58.204
is that, you know,

00:43:58.224 --> 00:43:59.724
it's kind of hard to find information.

00:44:00.425 --> 00:44:02.447
A lot of a lot of communities put

00:44:02.487 --> 00:44:04.849
everything on Discord and it's a little

00:44:04.869 --> 00:44:05.829
problematic to find.

00:44:06.090 --> 00:44:06.891
Like if you're like, oh,

00:44:06.911 --> 00:44:08.992
I need if you play some very obscure

00:44:09.032 --> 00:44:10.393
game, for instance,

00:44:10.512 --> 00:44:11.813
and they only have a Discord server,

00:44:11.833 --> 00:44:14.195
there's no wiki and you have to find

00:44:14.295 --> 00:44:16.338
somehow information about this in a

00:44:16.378 --> 00:44:17.099
Discord channel.

00:44:17.699 --> 00:44:18.780
It's not easy to find.

00:44:18.981 --> 00:44:21.864
I can understand why they're using this as

00:44:21.884 --> 00:44:22.204
an excuse,

00:44:22.224 --> 00:44:23.847
like why they're moving in this direction,

00:44:23.927 --> 00:44:24.186
right?

00:44:24.367 --> 00:44:26.811
It makes sense that they would do this.

00:44:27.231 --> 00:44:27.672
But again,

00:44:28.112 --> 00:44:29.713
I'm just not really sure how this would

00:44:29.833 --> 00:44:32.177
even be displayed in a public way.

00:44:32.217 --> 00:44:33.958
Like, is this going to be like...

00:44:35.378 --> 00:44:37.340
a link on Google that you click,

00:44:37.380 --> 00:44:38.599
and then it's just like a chat that

00:44:38.619 --> 00:44:39.500
you scroll through.

00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:41.880
I'm not really sure how this would even

00:44:41.960 --> 00:44:43.442
work, um,

00:44:44.041 --> 00:44:45.902
which is why it's a little bit confusing,

00:44:45.981 --> 00:44:46.342
I guess.

00:44:46.543 --> 00:44:48.083
Um, would this just be like, you know,

00:44:48.282 --> 00:44:50.563
a link to someone's specific message that

00:44:50.583 --> 00:44:51.103
they posted?

00:44:51.704 --> 00:44:52.103
I'm not super,

00:44:52.143 --> 00:44:55.545
it's not super clear how this would, um,

00:44:55.864 --> 00:44:56.545
actually work.

00:44:56.626 --> 00:44:59.547
But again, um, like what,

00:44:59.586 --> 00:45:00.586
like you read from the article,

00:45:00.646 --> 00:45:02.887
it said more than sixty three thousand

00:45:02.967 --> 00:45:03.827
servers would be

00:45:05.048 --> 00:45:05.710
discoverable.

00:45:05.889 --> 00:45:07.751
So maybe there is a lot of information

00:45:07.791 --> 00:45:11.092
in there that is really important that is

00:45:11.112 --> 00:45:12.635
going to be good that it's listed on

00:45:12.675 --> 00:45:13.375
Google, I guess.

00:45:14.976 --> 00:45:15.356
Yeah.

00:45:15.697 --> 00:45:16.556
Um, in my experience,

00:45:16.577 --> 00:45:18.358
you can link directly to a specific

00:45:18.378 --> 00:45:19.059
discord message.

00:45:19.179 --> 00:45:20.460
I think that's usually something you have

00:45:20.480 --> 00:45:21.740
to turn on the developer options to

00:45:21.820 --> 00:45:22.161
access.

00:45:22.202 --> 00:45:23.141
I could be wrong about that,

00:45:23.222 --> 00:45:24.722
but it is possible.

00:45:24.764 --> 00:45:25.764
So that's probably what they'll,

00:45:25.983 --> 00:45:26.425
they'll do.

00:45:26.485 --> 00:45:27.885
But yeah, I, um,

00:45:29.496 --> 00:45:29.817
I don't know.

00:45:29.896 --> 00:45:32.398
I have mixed feelings because I am

00:45:32.438 --> 00:45:34.579
frustrated that there are so many,

00:45:34.639 --> 00:45:35.539
even in the privacy community,

00:45:35.559 --> 00:45:36.960
there's so many places now that are using

00:45:37.021 --> 00:45:39.742
Discord for tech support,

00:45:40.943 --> 00:45:43.023
mostly because of Discord's privacy issues

00:45:43.903 --> 00:45:45.625
and now their age verifying everybody and

00:45:45.644 --> 00:45:46.164
all that crap.

00:45:46.184 --> 00:45:47.326
So I'm kind of not a fan of

00:45:47.365 --> 00:45:47.865
that, but...

00:45:48.836 --> 00:45:49.617
Yeah, I don't know.

00:45:49.657 --> 00:45:50.018
Personally,

00:45:50.117 --> 00:45:51.440
I think the fact that it's just the

00:45:51.500 --> 00:45:53.722
big opt-in communities I think is a good

00:45:53.782 --> 00:45:54.623
start, at least.

00:45:55.083 --> 00:45:56.023
Because when I first read it,

00:45:56.063 --> 00:45:56.625
I thought it was like,

00:45:57.065 --> 00:45:58.646
anyone who's set to public, and I'm like,

00:45:58.786 --> 00:46:00.088
oh no, oh no,

00:46:00.128 --> 00:46:01.369
this is going to be so bad.

00:46:01.469 --> 00:46:02.409
And then when I read that, I'm like,

00:46:02.550 --> 00:46:02.771
oh, well,

00:46:02.791 --> 00:46:04.992
that's already going to weed out millions

00:46:05.032 --> 00:46:05.813
of servers, so...

00:46:08.083 --> 00:46:09.585
yeah RL says I wish just I use

00:46:09.626 --> 00:46:11.427
discord with my cycling league for comms I

00:46:11.447 --> 00:46:12.528
wish we could go back to something like

00:46:12.568 --> 00:46:15.271
ventrilo but I'm dating myself yeah man I

00:46:15.291 --> 00:46:18.755
miss IRC I miss the good old days

00:46:19.014 --> 00:46:20.936
but I don't know that's that's all I

00:46:20.956 --> 00:46:22.518
got on that one so

00:46:23.311 --> 00:46:24.512
Yeah, that's fair.

00:46:24.592 --> 00:46:26.753
I think it's definitely Discord.

00:46:27.432 --> 00:46:29.735
As much as people will crap on Discord,

00:46:30.355 --> 00:46:31.556
there's really not that many good

00:46:31.596 --> 00:46:32.135
alternatives.

00:46:32.215 --> 00:46:34.257
I feel like Fluxer is, at this point,

00:46:35.018 --> 00:46:37.278
one of the better alternatives to it.

00:46:37.358 --> 00:46:37.619
Again,

00:46:37.659 --> 00:46:39.760
it doesn't fill every single niche that

00:46:40.260 --> 00:46:42.242
Discord has, but it's pretty close.

00:46:42.442 --> 00:46:43.523
It's pretty close right now.

00:46:44.362 --> 00:46:46.503
So definitely keeping an eye on Fluxer.

00:46:46.523 --> 00:46:47.405
We've been testing that

00:46:48.065 --> 00:46:49.786
for a beta community for a little bit

00:46:49.826 --> 00:46:50.025
now.

00:46:50.085 --> 00:46:51.346
And it seems to be going quite well.

00:46:51.626 --> 00:46:52.847
A lot of activity over there if you

00:46:52.867 --> 00:46:53.567
want to join that.

00:46:54.306 --> 00:46:56.047
I guess I can like shout out our

00:46:56.068 --> 00:46:56.728
Fluxer link.

00:46:56.768 --> 00:46:59.068
It's fluxer.gg forward slash privacy.

00:46:59.429 --> 00:47:00.369
So if you want to join that,

00:47:01.668 --> 00:47:02.849
go ahead and do that.

00:47:02.889 --> 00:47:04.269
But I guess we can jump right into

00:47:05.369 --> 00:47:06.731
the next topic we have here.

00:47:06.751 --> 00:47:09.472
And this is a forum discussion again on

00:47:10.012 --> 00:47:11.952
discuss.privacyguides.net.

00:47:12.432 --> 00:47:13.552
And this was a discussion about

00:47:14.860 --> 00:47:17.503
basically the differences between Linux

00:47:17.623 --> 00:47:19.887
GUI versus CLI updates.

00:47:21.027 --> 00:47:22.269
So the person was basically saying,

00:47:23.887 --> 00:47:25.409
I'm not sure whether I should use the

00:47:25.588 --> 00:47:27.990
software GUI to update my Linux apps or

00:47:28.010 --> 00:47:28.572
the terminal.

00:47:28.811 --> 00:47:31.353
The GUI includes RPM and Flatpak updates.

00:47:31.474 --> 00:47:33.695
If something like the kernel gets updated,

00:47:33.715 --> 00:47:34.797
it requires a restart.

00:47:34.856 --> 00:47:37.219
That results in a special installation

00:47:37.259 --> 00:47:39.000
screen that I never get if I update

00:47:39.019 --> 00:47:39.820
with the command line.

00:47:40.280 --> 00:47:42.101
The GUI doesn't include snap for some

00:47:42.141 --> 00:47:42.382
reason.

00:47:42.422 --> 00:47:43.222
If I want to update it,

00:47:43.282 --> 00:47:44.403
I have to use the command line.

00:47:44.885 --> 00:47:46.126
What is better for updating?

00:47:46.505 --> 00:47:47.726
I'm on Fedora, by the way.

00:47:48.186 --> 00:47:50.048
For the case, it's important.

00:47:50.608 --> 00:47:50.789
So...

00:47:52.003 --> 00:47:53.903
I think this is one of these things

00:47:53.943 --> 00:47:55.923
where it is entirely personal preference.

00:47:57.304 --> 00:47:57.844
I think, you know,

00:47:58.085 --> 00:48:00.186
there's obviously benefits and downsides

00:48:00.206 --> 00:48:01.045
to either of these things.

00:48:01.405 --> 00:48:02.166
If using Fedora,

00:48:02.246 --> 00:48:04.086
it actually uses the service called

00:48:04.146 --> 00:48:05.126
package kit D,

00:48:05.507 --> 00:48:07.307
which does automate some of the

00:48:07.447 --> 00:48:09.027
installation and update process.

00:48:09.367 --> 00:48:10.909
But again, it is kind of a heavy,

00:48:12.688 --> 00:48:16.570
more heavy application that requires more

00:48:16.610 --> 00:48:17.010
computing

00:48:19.405 --> 00:48:21.088
speed to basically keep that running in

00:48:21.108 --> 00:48:22.670
the background and checking for updates

00:48:22.710 --> 00:48:23.833
and updating stuff.

00:48:24.273 --> 00:48:26.898
So that is the reason that, you know,

00:48:29.001 --> 00:48:31.164
Fedora uses that is because it makes it

00:48:31.224 --> 00:48:32.507
easier to update programs in the

00:48:32.547 --> 00:48:33.389
background and

00:48:35.077 --> 00:48:36.898
manage updates through GNOME software.

00:48:37.018 --> 00:48:39.081
So if you're installing apps through GNOME

00:48:39.121 --> 00:48:39.521
software,

00:48:39.581 --> 00:48:41.483
it should be a relatively painless

00:48:41.523 --> 00:48:41.983
experience.

00:48:42.083 --> 00:48:46.086
My only reason for not using the GUI

00:48:46.186 --> 00:48:48.809
interface is that it can oftentimes have

00:48:48.909 --> 00:48:52.132
issues that you wouldn't have if you're

00:48:52.213 --> 00:48:57.177
using the CLI version, which is, I guess,

00:48:57.297 --> 00:48:57.797
an interesting...

00:49:00.021 --> 00:49:01.442
It's been less of an issue recently.

00:49:01.501 --> 00:49:02.882
I think they've definitely fixed a lot of

00:49:02.902 --> 00:49:04.643
the issues with the GUI installation and

00:49:04.684 --> 00:49:05.003
stuff,

00:49:05.403 --> 00:49:06.945
but there's still sometimes hiccups with

00:49:06.965 --> 00:49:09.126
that that don't really exist with the CLI.

00:49:09.927 --> 00:49:10.847
Someone replied and said,

00:49:10.987 --> 00:49:12.927
Fedora Magazine at least says to stick to

00:49:12.947 --> 00:49:14.588
the GUI and restart every time you're

00:49:14.608 --> 00:49:16.269
prompted for security and stability

00:49:16.849 --> 00:49:17.451
reasons.

00:49:18.231 --> 00:49:20.092
Another user suggested making a script you

00:49:20.112 --> 00:49:22.373
could easily run by typing update in the

00:49:22.413 --> 00:49:22.833
terminal.

00:49:23.474 --> 00:49:25.114
And I guess this is kind of where

00:49:25.175 --> 00:49:26.655
I share my personal thoughts on this.

00:49:29.045 --> 00:49:30.545
I just don't like using the GUI for

00:49:30.585 --> 00:49:30.965
anything.

00:49:31.346 --> 00:49:33.445
I'd rather use the CLI for basically

00:49:33.485 --> 00:49:33.885
everything.

00:49:34.646 --> 00:49:36.806
Managing everything is so much easier in

00:49:36.827 --> 00:49:37.306
the terminal.

00:49:37.847 --> 00:49:39.148
In my experience, again,

00:49:39.407 --> 00:49:41.208
it is one of these things where if

00:49:41.228 --> 00:49:43.248
you prefer using a GUI interface for doing

00:49:43.268 --> 00:49:43.889
this sort of stuff,

00:49:43.909 --> 00:49:45.528
then I think stick to that.

00:49:45.648 --> 00:49:46.648
Stick to what you're used to.

00:49:48.030 --> 00:49:49.909
And if it works, it works.

00:49:50.250 --> 00:49:54.490
I wouldn't try and force any specific tool

00:49:54.530 --> 00:49:55.652
for any reason.

00:49:55.692 --> 00:49:56.152
You can just...

00:49:59.213 --> 00:50:00.353
use what you're comfortable with.

00:50:00.733 --> 00:50:02.615
And I think all the discussion here has

00:50:02.635 --> 00:50:05.097
been pretty non-judgmental at least in

00:50:05.117 --> 00:50:05.478
this thread,

00:50:05.498 --> 00:50:07.079
which is great to see from our community.

00:50:09.706 --> 00:50:10.447
Yeah, I'm with you.

00:50:10.487 --> 00:50:11.947
I think it's really personal preference.

00:50:12.889 --> 00:50:16.570
I also prefer the CLI just because I

00:50:16.590 --> 00:50:17.030
think you read it.

00:50:17.050 --> 00:50:18.271
Somebody here pointed out that like

00:50:18.351 --> 00:50:19.612
sometimes it has met.

00:50:19.731 --> 00:50:20.893
Actually, first I need to point out,

00:50:20.913 --> 00:50:21.193
he's like,

00:50:21.313 --> 00:50:22.813
if something like the kernel gets updated,

00:50:22.853 --> 00:50:23.653
it requires a restart.

00:50:23.673 --> 00:50:24.853
The results in a special screen that I

00:50:24.894 --> 00:50:26.275
never get if I use the command line.

00:50:26.715 --> 00:50:28.195
Who are you serial killers that don't

00:50:28.255 --> 00:50:29.237
reboot your devices?

00:50:31.297 --> 00:50:31.918
But yeah, I don't know.

00:50:31.938 --> 00:50:32.539
That's just weird to me.

00:50:32.659 --> 00:50:33.800
I shut everything off when I go to

00:50:33.820 --> 00:50:34.000
bed.

00:50:34.179 --> 00:50:35.141
Like, okay, it's bedtime,

00:50:35.320 --> 00:50:36.681
shutting my computer off, going to bed.

00:50:36.842 --> 00:50:37.663
That's just me personally.

00:50:38.643 --> 00:50:39.744
But yeah, I agree with you.

00:50:39.784 --> 00:50:42.606
Like if something doesn't install from the

00:50:42.626 --> 00:50:42.867
GUI,

00:50:42.887 --> 00:50:44.367
and it depends on what kind of GUI,

00:50:44.407 --> 00:50:44.768
obviously,

00:50:44.789 --> 00:50:45.829
but if something doesn't install from

00:50:45.849 --> 00:50:46.050
there,

00:50:46.469 --> 00:50:47.630
usually it's just like installation

00:50:47.670 --> 00:50:47.990
failed.

00:50:48.090 --> 00:50:49.652
And it's like, well, that's not helpful.

00:50:50.193 --> 00:50:51.594
But if, like they pointed out,

00:50:51.614 --> 00:50:52.655
if you do it from the command line,

00:50:53.014 --> 00:50:53.695
it'll say like, oh,

00:50:53.715 --> 00:50:55.257
you're missing this dependency or like you

00:50:55.277 --> 00:50:56.518
don't have this permission or something.

00:50:56.577 --> 00:50:57.438
And then you can kind of dig in

00:50:57.458 --> 00:50:59.280
and be like, wait, why isn't that working?

00:50:59.380 --> 00:51:00.800
So yeah,

00:51:00.920 --> 00:51:02.161
I prefer the CLI and it just looks

00:51:02.202 --> 00:51:02.402
cool.

00:51:02.442 --> 00:51:04.603
Like my wife has literally sat there and

00:51:04.643 --> 00:51:06.864
watched me run updates before just because

00:51:06.885 --> 00:51:09.086
she thinks it looks cool.

00:51:09.126 --> 00:51:10.608
So yeah,

00:51:10.688 --> 00:51:11.849
I'm a big fan of the GUI or

00:51:12.088 --> 00:51:14.010
the CLI.

00:51:14.050 --> 00:51:16.371
But yeah, if anybody has any other,

00:51:16.431 --> 00:51:17.452
if there's anything we missed,

00:51:18.273 --> 00:51:19.974
definitely let us know if there's any

00:51:20.295 --> 00:51:21.735
third option that was not brought up

00:51:21.775 --> 00:51:22.496
somehow, but.

00:51:23.641 --> 00:51:25.001
I think with that,

00:51:25.041 --> 00:51:26.762
it's time for us to move into our

00:51:26.802 --> 00:51:27.001
big,

00:51:27.041 --> 00:51:29.222
exciting story that everybody's been

00:51:29.802 --> 00:51:30.324
waiting for.

00:51:30.344 --> 00:51:32.043
Yes.

00:51:32.164 --> 00:51:33.025
All righty, y'all.

00:51:33.164 --> 00:51:34.144
Let's do it.

00:51:34.164 --> 00:51:35.284
Let's talk about Proton.

00:51:35.646 --> 00:51:36.045
All right.

00:51:36.065 --> 00:51:36.806
I get to take this one,

00:51:36.885 --> 00:51:38.246
so buckle up.

00:51:38.967 --> 00:51:39.246
All right.

00:51:39.266 --> 00:51:40.166
I'm going to try to start from the

00:51:40.206 --> 00:51:41.367
beginning here because this –

00:51:42.443 --> 00:51:44.244
This isn't really like essential to the

00:51:44.284 --> 00:51:44.644
story,

00:51:44.684 --> 00:51:46.467
but it is kind of some additional context.

00:51:47.027 --> 00:51:48.748
And this is also why we didn't make

00:51:48.768 --> 00:51:49.708
this the headline story,

00:51:49.748 --> 00:51:51.931
because it didn't really completely

00:51:52.010 --> 00:51:53.672
escalate off the rails until about

00:51:53.713 --> 00:51:54.213
yesterday.

00:51:55.634 --> 00:51:58.016
So it started earlier this week with this

00:51:58.056 --> 00:51:59.398
article from Forofior here that says

00:51:59.458 --> 00:52:01.900
Proton to re-interview staff about AI to

00:52:01.940 --> 00:52:03.081
see who gets to keep their job.

00:52:05.405 --> 00:52:06.326
I am logged in,

00:52:06.425 --> 00:52:07.445
and I don't know if that's a paid

00:52:07.525 --> 00:52:07.826
article,

00:52:07.846 --> 00:52:08.706
so I'm going to switch back to this

00:52:08.786 --> 00:52:09.927
one real quick while I scroll down.

00:52:10.748 --> 00:52:11.228
To me,

00:52:11.347 --> 00:52:13.429
the part about this that I thought was

00:52:13.469 --> 00:52:14.130
really concerning,

00:52:14.210 --> 00:52:16.570
so I'll read the first couple paragraphs.

00:52:16.590 --> 00:52:19.311
It says Proton told staff on Monday that

00:52:19.333 --> 00:52:21.373
it would be re-interviewing staff across

00:52:21.414 --> 00:52:22.853
the company about how they use AI in

00:52:22.873 --> 00:52:23.315
their jobs,

00:52:23.594 --> 00:52:24.755
with the implication that the interviews

00:52:24.795 --> 00:52:26.175
may decide whether they have quote-unquote

00:52:26.215 --> 00:52:27.217
continued employment,

00:52:27.277 --> 00:52:28.938
according to an internal email obtained by

00:52:30.599 --> 00:52:31.639
A part of the email reads,

00:52:31.980 --> 00:52:33.440
these re-interviews are consequential.

00:52:33.782 --> 00:52:34.822
Interviewers will document their

00:52:34.842 --> 00:52:35.262
assessment,

00:52:35.302 --> 00:52:36.483
which will inform the broader review of

00:52:36.523 --> 00:52:37.525
our organization and talent.

00:52:37.784 --> 00:52:39.266
That review may lead to changes in role,

00:52:39.306 --> 00:52:41.188
responsibilities and continued employment.

00:52:41.288 --> 00:52:42.690
Individual outcomes will be communicated

00:52:42.730 --> 00:52:44.371
directly once the decisions are finalized.

00:52:46.480 --> 00:52:48.663
So this kind of is where the pushback

00:52:48.702 --> 00:52:49.083
started.

00:52:49.324 --> 00:52:51.065
I mean, there's always pushback on Proton,

00:52:51.085 --> 00:52:52.447
some of which is well-deserved.

00:52:53.530 --> 00:52:54.972
But this is kind of where the pushback

00:52:55.012 --> 00:52:57.153
started because people were kind of like,

00:52:57.434 --> 00:52:58.757
this sounds like you're basically going to

00:52:58.777 --> 00:53:00.778
fire anybody who's not all in on AI.

00:53:01.480 --> 00:53:03.900
And Andy went on Reddit and said, like,

00:53:03.940 --> 00:53:04.860
no, that's not true,

00:53:05.420 --> 00:53:06.621
to which a lot of people pointed out.

00:53:06.661 --> 00:53:08.081
It's like – pardon my language.

00:53:08.141 --> 00:53:09.422
I know I curse sometimes without meaning

00:53:09.461 --> 00:53:09.581
to,

00:53:09.601 --> 00:53:10.302
but here I'm going to do it for

00:53:10.322 --> 00:53:10.601
effect.

00:53:11.282 --> 00:53:12.182
A lot of people responded.

00:53:12.202 --> 00:53:12.603
It's like, well,

00:53:12.623 --> 00:53:14.483
then what the fuck was the continued

00:53:14.563 --> 00:53:15.364
employment line?

00:53:15.384 --> 00:53:17.603
Because that sure sounds like to anyone

00:53:17.643 --> 00:53:21.465
who can read English that that's –

00:53:20.625 --> 00:53:20.925
you know,

00:53:21.045 --> 00:53:22.286
says what it is on the tin.

00:53:22.606 --> 00:53:24.027
Um, so yeah,

00:53:24.108 --> 00:53:25.148
I don't know what was up with that,

00:53:25.548 --> 00:53:27.391
but, uh, while that was being debated,

00:53:28.010 --> 00:53:29.032
we got, um,

00:53:29.172 --> 00:53:31.193
treated to this wonderful article that

00:53:31.213 --> 00:53:32.994
I've got on the screen here, which, uh,

00:53:33.034 --> 00:53:34.436
at the time I'm recording is still public.

00:53:34.456 --> 00:53:35.257
So I'm going to go ahead and scroll

00:53:35.277 --> 00:53:35.577
this one.

00:53:36.277 --> 00:53:36.597
Um,

00:53:36.697 --> 00:53:38.159
and the headline for anyone listening on

00:53:38.239 --> 00:53:40.059
audio says manifestos fear and quote

00:53:40.079 --> 00:53:42.581
unquote, loser thinking inside protons,

00:53:42.762 --> 00:53:43.802
AI reckoning.

00:53:44.864 --> 00:53:45.824
Um, and,

00:53:45.965 --> 00:53:47.166
This is a very long article,

00:53:47.206 --> 00:53:48.226
and I'm going to try not to read

00:53:48.346 --> 00:53:48.826
all of it.

00:53:50.226 --> 00:53:51.527
Andy N., the CEO of Proton,

00:53:51.567 --> 00:53:52.728
had a message for an employee in the

00:53:52.768 --> 00:53:54.528
company's security Slack channel who urged

00:53:54.548 --> 00:53:55.648
the company to at least take a few

00:53:55.688 --> 00:53:57.789
days to pen test newly written code before

00:53:57.809 --> 00:53:58.510
pushing it live.

00:53:58.911 --> 00:54:00.530
Quote, that's bullshit and loser thinking.

00:54:00.610 --> 00:54:00.951
Of course,

00:54:00.971 --> 00:54:02.331
it's possible to be fast and secure.

00:54:03.052 --> 00:54:04.393
And in a follow-up message,

00:54:04.713 --> 00:54:06.193
he said only losers think like that.

00:54:06.233 --> 00:54:07.574
And his ultimate message for the team was,

00:54:07.614 --> 00:54:07.873
quote,

00:54:07.893 --> 00:54:09.994
to stop lovingly handcrafting all our code

00:54:10.054 --> 00:54:11.056
and use AI more.

00:54:11.891 --> 00:54:12.952
which I'll circle back to that part.

00:54:14.014 --> 00:54:15.335
That exchange was just one of many that

00:54:15.356 --> 00:54:16.436
showed how Yen and other company

00:54:16.456 --> 00:54:18.099
executives are aggressively pushing Proton

00:54:18.119 --> 00:54:18.980
towards AI.

00:54:20.161 --> 00:54:22.083
In the last few, let's see here.

00:54:22.724 --> 00:54:23.545
You know what, I apologize,

00:54:23.565 --> 00:54:24.766
but I'm just gonna switch to my notes

00:54:24.806 --> 00:54:25.807
where I picked out, because like I said,

00:54:25.827 --> 00:54:27.789
this is a really long article and I

00:54:27.829 --> 00:54:29.172
kind of picked out the important parts.

00:54:31.842 --> 00:54:32.523
So Proton,

00:54:32.583 --> 00:54:34.425
and there are updates for the record that

00:54:34.445 --> 00:54:35.505
are coming out, like I said,

00:54:35.664 --> 00:54:36.965
as we are streaming,

00:54:37.146 --> 00:54:38.226
there are updates coming out.

00:54:38.987 --> 00:54:39.768
So according to the article,

00:54:39.807 --> 00:54:41.208
Proton installed software on workers'

00:54:41.228 --> 00:54:42.889
computers that track how much AI code the

00:54:42.909 --> 00:54:43.750
company is generating.

00:54:44.070 --> 00:54:45.331
And Yen said this is the last year

00:54:45.351 --> 00:54:47.132
that Proton will hire engineers at all and

00:54:47.192 --> 00:54:48.733
instead only hire people to build things

00:54:48.773 --> 00:54:49.293
with AI.

00:54:49.813 --> 00:54:51.474
For For Media spoke to eight current and

00:54:51.574 --> 00:54:53.574
one former Proton employees and reviewed

00:54:53.635 --> 00:54:55.956
Slack chats, meeting records,

00:54:56.476 --> 00:54:59.139
An AI manifesto and an AI manifesto

00:54:59.179 --> 00:55:00.340
written by the company's CTO.

00:55:00.802 --> 00:55:02.403
Our reporting reveals a culture of fear

00:55:02.443 --> 00:55:03.985
deep inside Proton where many employees

00:55:04.025 --> 00:55:05.947
are hesitant to even mildly critique Yen's

00:55:05.967 --> 00:55:08.369
views or discuss engineering problems.

00:55:08.710 --> 00:55:09.871
Workers describe an environment where

00:55:09.891 --> 00:55:11.393
employees have genuine concerns about

00:55:11.414 --> 00:55:12.735
security or being asked to develop

00:55:12.755 --> 00:55:14.777
security products with AI.

00:55:15.677 --> 00:55:17.099
uh but feel unable to voice them lest

00:55:17.159 --> 00:55:18.579
yen berates them in front of everyone and

00:55:18.619 --> 00:55:20.139
threatens their employment at the company

00:55:20.739 --> 00:55:21.980
in response to detailed questions from

00:55:22.000 --> 00:55:23.740
four or four media a proton spokesperson

00:55:24.021 --> 00:55:25.541
did not dispute our reporting or

00:55:25.581 --> 00:55:26.681
characterization of what's happening

00:55:26.722 --> 00:55:28.563
inside the company they said quote it is

00:55:28.603 --> 00:55:29.742
clear that some people at proton are

00:55:29.802 --> 00:55:30.923
unhappy with our direction or

00:55:30.963 --> 00:55:32.184
misunderstand it and many people are

00:55:32.264 --> 00:55:34.304
anxious in our determination to move fast

00:55:34.344 --> 00:55:35.905
we have sometimes been too blunt or too

00:55:35.945 --> 00:55:37.746
slow in explaining ourselves to people we

00:55:37.786 --> 00:55:39.327
will work on that as their questions are

00:55:39.347 --> 00:55:41.347
the ones we need uh we most need

00:55:41.387 --> 00:55:41.728
to answer

00:55:43.264 --> 00:55:44.425
uh they said in and this is just

00:55:44.445 --> 00:55:46.286
kind of giving some examples they said in

00:55:46.326 --> 00:55:47.387
may proton announced that it was

00:55:47.427 --> 00:55:48.967
implementing post-quantum cryptography

00:55:49.007 --> 00:55:50.047
which should protect against future

00:55:50.068 --> 00:55:51.909
attacks from quantum computers the work

00:55:51.929 --> 00:55:53.411
took years of effort with the caveat that

00:55:53.451 --> 00:55:55.431
it would not work on older emails only

00:55:55.472 --> 00:55:57.072
those written after the features launch at

00:55:57.112 --> 00:55:59.034
least for now yen was not happy with

00:55:59.054 --> 00:56:00.835
that proton drawing attention to this

00:56:00.855 --> 00:56:03.036
limitation in a slack channel dedicated to

00:56:03.077 --> 00:56:05.217
thanking people for their work yen jumped

00:56:05.277 --> 00:56:06.659
in quote get it fixed

00:56:07.539 --> 00:56:09.059
Now Reddit is pissed and we look worse

00:56:09.079 --> 00:56:09.539
than Tudor.

00:56:10.019 --> 00:56:11.201
When employees explained to Ian the

00:56:11.221 --> 00:56:12.802
nuances of encryption and why that was not

00:56:12.822 --> 00:56:14.521
immediately possible, he replied, quote,

00:56:14.601 --> 00:56:15.623
I find this whole thing stupid.

00:56:15.663 --> 00:56:17.003
You cannot announce this in this way.

00:56:17.403 --> 00:56:18.623
In the future, there are two options.

00:56:18.704 --> 00:56:19.885
Either you guys are confident enough to

00:56:19.945 --> 00:56:21.405
not fuck this up or you get my

00:56:21.445 --> 00:56:22.706
advice to make sure it is not fucked

00:56:22.746 --> 00:56:22.865
up.

00:56:23.206 --> 00:56:24.246
He then told a member of the team

00:56:24.266 --> 00:56:26.568
to go on Reddit and start responding to

00:56:26.608 --> 00:56:26.987
comments.

00:56:27.628 --> 00:56:28.628
And he went on to say,

00:56:29.509 --> 00:56:30.670
go there with your personal account and

00:56:30.710 --> 00:56:31.829
comment to set the record straight.

00:56:32.090 --> 00:56:33.510
Perception is more important than truth.

00:56:33.630 --> 00:56:35.172
The truth doesn't matter if you don't win

00:56:35.211 --> 00:56:35.811
on perception.

00:56:38.530 --> 00:56:41.070
Sorry, this is hard to read.

00:56:41.510 --> 00:56:42.672
This is still a quote from him in

00:56:42.711 --> 00:56:43.411
a different context.

00:56:43.992 --> 00:56:44.612
The train is coming,

00:56:44.672 --> 00:56:45.833
get on board or get crushed.

00:56:45.913 --> 00:56:47.172
Don't be the professional fax machine

00:56:47.213 --> 00:56:48.454
operator in the internet age.

00:56:48.893 --> 00:56:49.833
I think by the end of the year,

00:56:49.873 --> 00:56:51.514
most developers stop programming and start

00:56:51.554 --> 00:56:53.215
writing specs for tests that AI will code

00:56:53.235 --> 00:56:55.115
and run to validate AI code written that

00:56:55.155 --> 00:56:56.336
humans will no longer be able to be

00:56:56.376 --> 00:56:58.137
reviewed or will be able to review.

00:56:58.617 --> 00:56:59.617
This will be the last year that we

00:56:59.637 --> 00:57:00.898
hire engineers and starting next year,

00:57:00.938 --> 00:57:02.298
we hire what we used to call product

00:57:02.338 --> 00:57:04.380
managers to build things with AI.

00:57:05.159 --> 00:57:07.882
Proton CEO or CTO said that Proton needs

00:57:07.902 --> 00:57:09.103
to change in three key ways,

00:57:09.463 --> 00:57:11.184
except that an engineering job is now to

00:57:11.224 --> 00:57:12.945
help LLMs write better code faster,

00:57:13.346 --> 00:57:14.586
that Proton needs to get to the point

00:57:14.606 --> 00:57:15.867
where code is not being reviewed by

00:57:15.907 --> 00:57:16.168
humans,

00:57:16.208 --> 00:57:18.628
but by AI and to more fundamentally change

00:57:18.648 --> 00:57:20.010
the company as a whole and quote,

00:57:20.050 --> 00:57:21.311
commit as an organization to the

00:57:21.331 --> 00:57:22.911
transformation that the moment requires.

00:57:23.572 --> 00:57:25.893
I love corporate PR speak.

00:57:25.914 --> 00:57:26.675
Uh, earlier this week,

00:57:26.695 --> 00:57:28.195
Proton sent the email to employees saying

00:57:28.215 --> 00:57:29.456
that they would re-interview workers about

00:57:29.476 --> 00:57:30.577
how they use AI in their jobs.

00:57:30.818 --> 00:57:31.458
The tone was clear.

00:57:31.518 --> 00:57:32.798
You may lose your job because of these

00:57:32.838 --> 00:57:33.259
interviews.

00:57:33.820 --> 00:57:33.920
Um,

00:57:35.184 --> 00:57:36.724
Yeah, so... Yeah.

00:57:57.532 --> 00:57:58.655
Again, love corporate speak.

00:57:59.115 --> 00:58:00.358
The company's year over year growth is

00:58:00.398 --> 00:58:00.639
quote,

00:58:00.679 --> 00:58:02.202
far away from what the market considers to

00:58:02.222 --> 00:58:04.248
be good, unquote, and quote,

00:58:04.288 --> 00:58:05.289
by all metrics that matter,

00:58:05.309 --> 00:58:06.492
we're an underperforming company.

00:58:08.034 --> 00:58:09.215
Sorry, I have a lot of opinions.

00:58:09.835 --> 00:58:10.076
Second,

00:58:10.096 --> 00:58:11.838
the document says that Proton is

00:58:11.898 --> 00:58:13.579
transitioning to an AI-first company.

00:58:13.659 --> 00:58:14.659
Excuse me.

00:58:15.239 --> 00:58:15.500
Second,

00:58:15.519 --> 00:58:17.001
the document says Proton transitioning to

00:58:17.041 --> 00:58:17.961
an AI-first company,

00:58:18.181 --> 00:58:18.983
and that's also in quotes,

00:58:19.262 --> 00:58:20.784
requires additional time and effort before

00:58:20.804 --> 00:58:22.184
it will start to see efficiency gains.

00:58:22.465 --> 00:58:23.286
For around six months,

00:58:23.306 --> 00:58:25.086
Proton has been in an experimental phase

00:58:25.106 --> 00:58:25.547
with AI,

00:58:25.567 --> 00:58:26.947
but now the company is taking concrete

00:58:26.987 --> 00:58:28.369
steps to restructure the company around

00:58:28.489 --> 00:58:30.670
AI, according to meeting audio,

00:58:30.911 --> 00:58:32.452
and in another meeting, if,

00:58:33.733 --> 00:58:35.235
A Proton employee said they do not trust

00:58:35.315 --> 00:58:36.635
Andy's judgment on highly technical

00:58:36.675 --> 00:58:37.036
choices.

00:58:37.396 --> 00:58:37.956
In another,

00:58:38.297 --> 00:58:39.858
even the CTO said that Yen doesn't

00:58:40.278 --> 00:58:41.719
understand the technical points about AI

00:58:41.760 --> 00:58:43.641
topics he's re-interviewing people on.

00:58:46.262 --> 00:58:47.123
A few updates.

00:58:47.204 --> 00:58:48.804
This came out like right as we started

00:58:49.065 --> 00:58:49.545
streaming.

00:58:50.286 --> 00:58:50.806
Apparently,

00:58:50.947 --> 00:58:53.208
Andy has canceled these re-interviews.

00:58:54.829 --> 00:58:55.731
And let's see.

00:58:56.251 --> 00:58:56.512
Jordan,

00:58:56.532 --> 00:58:57.873
do you want me to read off this

00:58:57.913 --> 00:58:59.094
Reddit post or do you want to take

00:58:59.134 --> 00:58:59.313
this?

00:58:59.333 --> 00:59:01.976
Because I still have not fully had time

00:59:01.996 --> 00:59:02.797
to read this myself.

00:59:04.530 --> 00:59:05.710
Yeah, all right.

00:59:05.731 --> 00:59:06.632
I can give this a little bit of

00:59:06.692 --> 00:59:07.311
a read here.

00:59:08.092 --> 00:59:10.972
This one is from Andy's personal account

00:59:11.032 --> 00:59:13.853
on the Proton Mail subreddit.

00:59:14.695 --> 00:59:16.954
It's titled, A Message to the Community.

00:59:16.994 --> 00:59:17.916
A lot of you probably don't want to

00:59:17.956 --> 00:59:18.675
hear from me right now,

00:59:18.715 --> 00:59:20.257
but I spoke to the Proton team earlier

00:59:20.297 --> 00:59:20.597
today,

00:59:21.016 --> 00:59:22.376
and you also deserve to know what was

00:59:22.396 --> 00:59:24.018
said because I've let you down too.

00:59:24.458 --> 00:59:24.918
First of all,

00:59:24.978 --> 00:59:26.619
I take responsibility for the failure of

00:59:26.639 --> 00:59:28.099
communications that has led to such

00:59:28.199 --> 00:59:29.199
uncertainty, confusion,

00:59:29.280 --> 00:59:30.360
and hurt within the staff.

00:59:30.739 --> 00:59:31.780
We'll be bringing in internal

00:59:31.800 --> 00:59:32.721
communications lead

00:59:33.041 --> 00:59:34.858
to help keep this from happening again.

00:59:37.030 --> 00:59:38.532
Anyway, more personally,

00:59:38.652 --> 00:59:39.932
I shouldn't have said some things that I

00:59:39.972 --> 00:59:41.474
did to the people who helped build this

00:59:41.514 --> 00:59:41.875
company.

00:59:41.954 --> 00:59:42.655
They were hurtful.

00:59:43.056 --> 00:59:43.476
I'm sorry,

00:59:43.536 --> 00:59:44.797
and I'm determined to do better.

00:59:45.277 --> 00:59:46.918
I want to address some points that have

00:59:46.978 --> 00:59:47.759
raised concerns.

00:59:48.039 --> 00:59:49.960
First, the re-interviews, in quote,

00:59:50.260 --> 00:59:51.902
that have been publicly discussed will not

00:59:51.963 --> 00:59:52.543
take place,

00:59:52.663 --> 00:59:54.724
and no one will lose their jobs because

00:59:54.764 --> 00:59:55.025
of them.

00:59:55.405 --> 00:59:56.425
So that's good.

00:59:56.485 --> 00:59:56.867
Second,

00:59:56.967 --> 00:59:58.728
Proton does not install tracking software

00:59:58.807 --> 01:00:00.489
on employees' laptops to measure how much

01:00:00.630 --> 01:00:02.431
AI-generated code they produce.

01:00:02.811 --> 01:00:04.773
This is false and stems from someone's

01:00:04.813 --> 01:00:06.034
misunderstanding about AI.

01:00:06.454 --> 01:00:10.594
mdm software works but most importantly i

01:00:10.614 --> 01:00:12.516
need to categorically state that our use

01:00:12.556 --> 01:00:14.215
of ai will never be at the expense

01:00:14.235 --> 01:00:16.536
of security in the past year contrary to

01:00:16.556 --> 01:00:18.498
what has been alleged actually additional

01:00:18.538 --> 01:00:20.378
layers of security review have been added

01:00:20.418 --> 01:00:22.418
to meet the threat posed by hostile ai

01:00:22.478 --> 01:00:24.099
scanning protons open source code for

01:00:24.119 --> 01:00:26.199
vulnerabilities fast and secure

01:00:27.199 --> 01:00:29.842
need not be mutually exclusive.

01:00:30.422 --> 01:00:32.003
We also leverage AI to find

01:00:32.043 --> 01:00:33.764
vulnerabilities in our own code before

01:00:33.804 --> 01:00:34.543
attackers do.

01:00:34.623 --> 01:00:36.664
Our code is open source and its security

01:00:36.744 --> 01:00:39.085
mains open for all to verify.

01:00:39.467 --> 01:00:40.666
I recognize the burden of proof.

01:00:41.146 --> 01:00:43.688
This is about, sorry, I recognize

01:00:44.369 --> 01:00:46.128
that the burden of proof about this is

01:00:46.228 --> 01:00:46.670
on us,

01:00:46.750 --> 01:00:49.829
and therefore I'm recommitting to Proton's

01:00:49.909 --> 01:00:51.670
deeply held belief in transparency.

01:00:51.990 --> 01:00:53.170
We will lift the hood on how we

01:00:53.231 --> 01:00:54.652
use AI internally at Proton.

01:00:54.992 --> 01:00:57.351
This includes publicly releasing and open

01:00:57.391 --> 01:00:59.233
sourcing several of the internal tools

01:00:59.253 --> 01:00:59.813
that we use,

01:01:00.253 --> 01:01:02.273
including more advanced versions of LUMO

01:01:02.333 --> 01:01:03.634
with greater capabilities,

01:01:03.693 --> 01:01:06.215
which have never been made available

01:01:06.355 --> 01:01:07.514
outside of the company.

01:01:07.815 --> 01:01:10.456
We will also publish how code reviews and

01:01:10.516 --> 01:01:11.795
security reviews at Proton

01:01:12.255 --> 01:01:14.318
are done and detail our AI policies,

01:01:14.398 --> 01:01:15.697
including where AI is permitted,

01:01:16.018 --> 01:01:17.920
where it is not, and our rationale.

01:01:18.559 --> 01:01:20.141
Instead of just being able to see the

01:01:20.181 --> 01:01:22.182
final open source code that we produce to

01:01:22.202 --> 01:01:23.143
verify security,

01:01:23.483 --> 01:01:26.286
third parties will be able to assess how

01:01:26.326 --> 01:01:27.527
that code is produced.

01:01:28.822 --> 01:01:30.123
Even if we wish it wasn't,

01:01:30.784 --> 01:01:33.686
AI is here and it unquestionably change

01:01:33.766 --> 01:01:35.967
how software is developed forever and

01:01:36.027 --> 01:01:37.447
Proton must also change.

01:01:37.568 --> 01:01:39.809
But we're committed to proving to you that

01:01:39.829 --> 01:01:41.811
we're doing it in a responsible and safe

01:01:41.851 --> 01:01:42.150
way.

01:01:42.550 --> 01:01:44.251
The past few days have been humbling to

01:01:44.291 --> 01:01:44.873
say the least.

01:01:45.293 --> 01:01:47.474
When you see your words reflected back at

01:01:47.494 --> 01:01:48.355
you all at once,

01:01:48.596 --> 01:01:50.396
you can't help but see yourself in a

01:01:50.436 --> 01:01:51.056
different light.

01:01:51.458 --> 01:01:52.277
I've made mistakes,

01:01:52.538 --> 01:01:53.858
but I will learn from them.

01:01:54.539 --> 01:01:55.820
The coming days, weeks, months,

01:01:55.880 --> 01:01:56.922
and years will be difficult,

01:01:57.001 --> 01:01:57.722
not just for us,

01:01:57.762 --> 01:01:59.623
but for all the people who'll be impacted

01:01:59.643 --> 01:02:01.445
by the changes brought on by AI and

01:02:01.545 --> 01:02:02.106
automation.

01:02:02.226 --> 01:02:04.387
Proton will not go the distance with an

01:02:04.467 --> 01:02:05.228
army of agents,

01:02:05.708 --> 01:02:06.989
but with an army of smart,

01:02:07.028 --> 01:02:08.951
thoughtful people who can care deeply

01:02:09.331 --> 01:02:11.413
about our mission, our users,

01:02:11.932 --> 01:02:12.853
and this community.

01:02:13.594 --> 01:02:15.295
So interesting to see here.

01:02:16.396 --> 01:02:17.876
The community is not enjoying this.

01:02:19.458 --> 01:02:21.039
It's currently sitting at zero upvotes.

01:02:21.079 --> 01:02:24.242
So it's majority negative perception so

01:02:24.262 --> 01:02:24.521
far.

01:02:25.063 --> 01:02:26.222
Again, this is on Reddit.

01:02:26.264 --> 01:02:27.764
So it's not really that surprising.

01:02:28.204 --> 01:02:29.686
Two hundred and sixty eight comments.

01:02:29.806 --> 01:02:31.547
And this has been posted three hours ago.

01:02:32.027 --> 01:02:34.530
So rather a large discussion happening

01:02:34.570 --> 01:02:34.869
here.

01:02:36.811 --> 01:02:37.672
I think this is.

01:02:39.371 --> 01:02:41.592
Definitely quite bad.

01:02:43.554 --> 01:02:45.775
Some of the discussion topics in this,

01:02:46.835 --> 01:02:48.356
I guess to throw this back to you,

01:02:48.396 --> 01:02:52.838
Nate, does this change how we view Proton?

01:02:52.958 --> 01:02:56.380
Do you think this might even result in

01:02:57.521 --> 01:02:59.121
possibly getting them delisted at some

01:02:59.163 --> 01:03:00.802
point if they can't actually hold true on

01:03:00.822 --> 01:03:01.603
their promises here?

01:03:02.364 --> 01:03:03.485
What does this actually look like?

01:03:04.420 --> 01:03:05.920
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

01:03:05.981 --> 01:03:07.501
I mean, that's the big question, right?

01:03:07.521 --> 01:03:09.822
Like, that's what everybody's wondering.

01:03:10.824 --> 01:03:11.003
I mean,

01:03:11.083 --> 01:03:13.005
I have personal opinions on that apology.

01:03:13.585 --> 01:03:16.768
I will say, I don't know,

01:03:17.108 --> 01:03:17.807
I'm kind of mixed.

01:03:18.208 --> 01:03:18.648
I kind of...

01:03:20.992 --> 01:03:22.355
I think it's, I mean, yeah,

01:03:22.594 --> 01:03:24.817
Sockhop said here, Andy's so full of it,

01:03:24.836 --> 01:03:26.179
a blind man like me knows his eyes

01:03:26.199 --> 01:03:26.579
are brown.

01:03:26.798 --> 01:03:27.440
That's rough.

01:03:28.661 --> 01:03:28.942
I don't know.

01:03:29.021 --> 01:03:30.864
I think it's possible that maybe,

01:03:31.264 --> 01:03:31.784
I don't know, man.

01:03:31.864 --> 01:03:32.065
I mean,

01:03:32.105 --> 01:03:34.728
to be as much of a jerk as

01:03:34.788 --> 01:03:36.349
the article was painting him out to be,

01:03:37.010 --> 01:03:39.552
unless that was like every single instance

01:03:39.592 --> 01:03:39.693
of,

01:03:41.766 --> 01:03:43.306
Because I could see how if that was

01:03:43.387 --> 01:03:45.268
every single bad thing he ever said over

01:03:45.288 --> 01:03:46.548
the course of five years,

01:03:47.208 --> 01:03:48.809
I could see how maybe he didn't realize

01:03:48.849 --> 01:03:51.050
that he was being kind of a dick.

01:03:51.251 --> 01:03:53.413
I am a person who tends to skew

01:03:53.452 --> 01:03:55.713
towards cynicism just in my personal life.

01:03:56.375 --> 01:03:59.376
And I have also taken many years to

01:03:59.396 --> 01:04:00.336
realize that I'm like, hmm,

01:04:00.717 --> 01:04:01.898
I'm not always that fun to hang out

01:04:01.918 --> 01:04:03.139
with and I should probably work on that.

01:04:03.518 --> 01:04:04.940
But I also don't go around calling people

01:04:04.980 --> 01:04:06.840
stupid or losers or bullying them.

01:04:07.681 --> 01:04:11.864
Um, and, but it's, I don't know, man,

01:04:11.965 --> 01:04:14.206
it's, I,

01:04:14.226 --> 01:04:15.447
I guess we'll wait to see on,

01:04:15.547 --> 01:04:16.088
on that front,

01:04:16.188 --> 01:04:17.489
if he actually changes or not.

01:04:17.550 --> 01:04:18.050
I don't know.

01:04:18.070 --> 01:04:18.891
I don't know how we'll know.

01:04:19.032 --> 01:04:19.331
Um,

01:04:19.431 --> 01:04:20.213
I don't think he's going to start

01:04:20.253 --> 01:04:21.793
publishing meeting notes or anything,

01:04:21.893 --> 01:04:22.394
but whatever.

01:04:23.054 --> 01:04:25.496
Um, as, as far as actual concrete,

01:04:25.516 --> 01:04:27.059
cause like the, unfortunately,

01:04:27.960 --> 01:04:29.641
an unfortunate reality of the privacy

01:04:29.681 --> 01:04:30.442
space is that like,

01:04:32.503 --> 01:04:33.525
this is my personal opinion.

01:04:33.545 --> 01:04:33.764
Um,

01:04:34.777 --> 01:04:35.818
Everybody kind of sucks,

01:04:36.599 --> 01:04:37.458
to be totally honest.

01:04:37.518 --> 01:04:37.699
I mean,

01:04:37.719 --> 01:04:38.860
when we're talking about developers,

01:04:38.880 --> 01:04:40.501
we've got like, you know,

01:04:40.940 --> 01:04:43.001
Volvad has one of their CEOs donating to

01:04:43.041 --> 01:04:43.922
Nazi parties.

01:04:45.523 --> 01:04:48.144
Brandon Eich has supported very homophobic

01:04:48.184 --> 01:04:49.045
causes in the past.

01:04:50.186 --> 01:04:50.786
Mozilla's...

01:04:51.626 --> 01:04:53.588
just completely out of touch with reality.

01:04:53.728 --> 01:04:56.349
Like it's really hard to find any

01:04:56.389 --> 01:04:59.110
developers that are like not a jerk in

01:04:59.170 --> 01:04:59.891
some way, shape or form.

01:04:59.971 --> 01:05:01.731
Even apparently this predates my time in

01:05:01.751 --> 01:05:02.411
the privacy community,

01:05:02.692 --> 01:05:04.172
but apparently even Linus Torvalds used to

01:05:04.193 --> 01:05:05.653
be such an asshole that he basically got

01:05:05.673 --> 01:05:07.454
pushed into exile and had to like go

01:05:07.494 --> 01:05:08.755
to therapy and rethink himself.

01:05:09.735 --> 01:05:10.956
And he still definitely has moments where

01:05:10.976 --> 01:05:12.036
he snaps at people according to the

01:05:12.056 --> 01:05:12.677
headlines I've seen.

01:05:12.737 --> 01:05:14.418
So I don't know.

01:05:14.557 --> 01:05:15.498
It's one of those things where like,

01:05:15.759 --> 01:05:16.619
in my personal opinion,

01:05:16.659 --> 01:05:18.280
if you only use tools from perfect people,

01:05:18.340 --> 01:05:19.500
you're basically just gonna have to like

01:05:19.519 --> 01:05:20.460
go live in a cabin in the woods.

01:05:21.240 --> 01:05:23.762
um again that's just my personal opinion

01:05:23.782 --> 01:05:27.523
that's my personal read on things so i

01:05:27.563 --> 01:05:30.425
think objectively speaking putting him and

01:05:30.485 --> 01:05:32.347
his behavior aside which for the record i

01:05:32.387 --> 01:05:34.248
do think is unforgivable if we look at

01:05:34.268 --> 01:05:37.349
the security and privacy of proton i think

01:05:37.608 --> 01:05:41.190
right now there's not really i don't want

01:05:41.210 --> 01:05:42.192
to say cause to be concerned there's

01:05:42.211 --> 01:05:45.813
definitely cause to be concerned right now

01:05:45.853 --> 01:05:47.873
proton is at this moment in time i

01:05:47.893 --> 01:05:49.574
think still a very technically secure and

01:05:49.614 --> 01:05:50.655
private project project

01:05:51.976 --> 01:05:56.480
But if the picture that four Oh four

01:05:56.500 --> 01:05:57.900
painted, which Andy disputes,

01:05:58.420 --> 01:05:59.081
is this like,

01:05:59.581 --> 01:06:01.302
we're going to stop hiring developers.

01:06:01.463 --> 01:06:03.023
We don't want humans writing code.

01:06:03.143 --> 01:06:05.646
Everything's going to be AI and like AI

01:06:05.686 --> 01:06:06.565
can be very useful.

01:06:06.746 --> 01:06:08.047
I've in the past week,

01:06:08.507 --> 01:06:10.407
every tech thing in my stack has broken.

01:06:10.829 --> 01:06:11.688
My pie hole broke.

01:06:12.110 --> 01:06:14.130
My uptime monitor broke next cloud broke.

01:06:14.871 --> 01:06:16.532
Peer two broke for me personally,

01:06:16.891 --> 01:06:17.572
everything broke.

01:06:18.052 --> 01:06:18.572
And honestly,

01:06:18.672 --> 01:06:20.432
AI was really helpful at troubleshooting

01:06:20.472 --> 01:06:21.853
those errors and figuring out what does

01:06:21.873 --> 01:06:22.253
this mean?

01:06:22.273 --> 01:06:23.173
What am I doing wrong?

01:06:23.514 --> 01:06:24.173
Run this command?

01:06:24.213 --> 01:06:24.873
What does it say?

01:06:25.253 --> 01:06:27.494
So like, I'm not, again, me personally,

01:06:27.534 --> 01:06:28.514
I'm not anti-AI,

01:06:28.574 --> 01:06:30.235
but the idea of like taking the human

01:06:30.295 --> 01:06:32.036
out of the loop scares the living hell

01:06:32.076 --> 01:06:32.335
out of me.

01:06:32.376 --> 01:06:33.315
Because even me,

01:06:34.117 --> 01:06:35.456
as little as I know about tech,

01:06:35.717 --> 01:06:37.378
there are times where I feed it into

01:06:37.398 --> 01:06:38.677
the LLM, you know, the error code.

01:06:38.958 --> 01:06:40.018
And it's like, oh, try this.

01:06:40.077 --> 01:06:40.418
And I'm like,

01:06:40.719 --> 01:06:41.798
that's definitely not the problem.

01:06:42.239 --> 01:06:43.358
I know that's not the problem.

01:06:43.460 --> 01:06:44.619
I know you're wrong about this.

01:06:45.059 --> 01:06:47.300
And just this whole idea of like AI

01:06:47.340 --> 01:06:50.021
checking AI and writing AI and AI all

01:06:50.041 --> 01:06:50.501
the way down.

01:06:50.561 --> 01:06:50.802
I'm like,

01:06:50.842 --> 01:06:52.302
this is just asking for disaster.

01:06:52.362 --> 01:06:54.403
So I think it really remains to be

01:06:54.423 --> 01:06:54.603
seen.

01:06:54.664 --> 01:06:56.204
If what he said in this updated statement

01:06:56.224 --> 01:06:58.184
is true, if he's changed his mind,

01:06:58.704 --> 01:06:59.344
let's put it that way.

01:06:59.385 --> 01:07:01.425
If he's changed his mind and realized, oh,

01:07:01.686 --> 01:07:02.867
I'm in the wrong here and I suck.

01:07:03.887 --> 01:07:04.387
And he's like,

01:07:04.427 --> 01:07:05.807
maybe we shouldn't take humans out of the

01:07:05.827 --> 01:07:06.047
loop.

01:07:06.447 --> 01:07:07.208
If that's the case,

01:07:07.288 --> 01:07:08.829
and if they use AI as a tool,

01:07:10.123 --> 01:07:11.802
I personally think that it still has

01:07:11.862 --> 01:07:12.222
potential.

01:07:12.322 --> 01:07:13.463
I know some people are very staunchly

01:07:13.563 --> 01:07:16.164
anti-AI, don't want to use anything AI.

01:07:16.204 --> 01:07:16.623
That's fine.

01:07:16.684 --> 01:07:17.523
I'm not talking about that.

01:07:17.943 --> 01:07:19.164
That's a very valid view to hold.

01:07:20.085 --> 01:07:21.144
But in terms of like the technical

01:07:21.184 --> 01:07:21.505
security,

01:07:21.545 --> 01:07:22.585
as long as they don't take humans out

01:07:22.625 --> 01:07:22.965
of the loop,

01:07:24.146 --> 01:07:25.806
I'm not super worried about it.

01:07:26.686 --> 01:07:28.585
But if he does take humans out of

01:07:28.606 --> 01:07:30.067
the loop, I personal opinion,

01:07:30.126 --> 01:07:31.146
I think it's only a matter of time

01:07:31.166 --> 01:07:32.166
before they get delisted.

01:07:32.286 --> 01:07:33.286
Like there's just no way.

01:07:33.527 --> 01:07:34.327
I don't know.

01:07:34.367 --> 01:07:35.668
Sorry, that was very long and rambly,

01:07:35.688 --> 01:07:37.387
but yeah.

01:07:39.291 --> 01:07:40.833
I think as soon as I heard that

01:07:40.873 --> 01:07:42.715
Proton was working on an AI product,

01:07:42.775 --> 01:07:43.496
I became worried.

01:07:44.257 --> 01:07:45.056
As soon as I heard, oh,

01:07:45.077 --> 01:07:47.900
we're working on Lumo, I was like, well,

01:07:47.980 --> 01:07:51.222
I think my values are diverging from your

01:07:51.262 --> 01:07:51.664
company.

01:07:52.443 --> 01:07:55.626
I think this is clear that you're trying

01:07:55.666 --> 01:07:58.389
to chase certain objectives that don't

01:07:58.429 --> 01:07:59.190
align with mine.

01:07:59.670 --> 01:07:59.871
Again,

01:07:59.891 --> 01:08:01.351
this is probably the case for a lot

01:08:01.371 --> 01:08:02.313
of people here as well.

01:08:02.914 --> 01:08:03.373
If you're...

01:08:05.255 --> 01:08:07.496
if you're not a big fan of AI,

01:08:07.777 --> 01:08:09.559
you're not a big fan of developers losing

01:08:09.579 --> 01:08:10.159
their jobs,

01:08:10.719 --> 01:08:12.860
then of course this makes sense for you

01:08:12.880 --> 01:08:14.822
to consider switching to something else,

01:08:14.922 --> 01:08:15.963
right?

01:08:16.122 --> 01:08:18.043
But I do think it's become one of

01:08:18.083 --> 01:08:18.864
these issues where

01:08:20.016 --> 01:08:23.078
I heard some people saying, you know,

01:08:23.198 --> 01:08:24.720
I was thinking of switching to Proton,

01:08:24.779 --> 01:08:25.920
but now I'm not going to.

01:08:25.939 --> 01:08:27.161
I'm going to stay on Gmail.

01:08:27.421 --> 01:08:28.081
It's like, well,

01:08:28.502 --> 01:08:29.822
that's actually not really that good of a

01:08:29.862 --> 01:08:30.262
decision.

01:08:31.182 --> 01:08:32.764
I think you'd still be safer on Proton

01:08:32.804 --> 01:08:34.505
because at least with Proton,

01:08:34.664 --> 01:08:35.506
they're using AI.

01:08:35.626 --> 01:08:37.787
They say there's some checks and balances

01:08:37.827 --> 01:08:38.186
happening.

01:08:39.868 --> 01:08:41.168
You definitely can't say the same for

01:08:41.229 --> 01:08:41.548
Google.

01:08:41.729 --> 01:08:43.229
They're using Gemini for everything.

01:08:43.590 --> 01:08:44.930
They're using AI agents.

01:08:45.291 --> 01:08:46.771
They're not testing the code properly.

01:08:46.952 --> 01:08:47.671
I guarantee it.

01:08:49.729 --> 01:08:51.951
So just keep that in mind.

01:08:52.131 --> 01:08:53.411
I think basically at this point,

01:08:54.771 --> 01:08:56.193
if you work at a company and you're

01:08:56.212 --> 01:08:58.753
a software developer, you're basically,

01:08:59.654 --> 01:09:02.454
everyone is using these AI tools to build

01:09:02.515 --> 01:09:03.335
software at this point,

01:09:04.275 --> 01:09:06.096
which kind of sucks because like we've

01:09:06.117 --> 01:09:07.077
talked about in the past,

01:09:07.237 --> 01:09:08.037
and like Nate said,

01:09:08.497 --> 01:09:10.337
it can introduce security vulnerabilities.

01:09:10.358 --> 01:09:11.399
We've already seen it happen.

01:09:11.798 --> 01:09:13.939
It doesn't make the most secure code ever.

01:09:15.180 --> 01:09:18.822
um it's kind of somewhat it needs to

01:09:18.841 --> 01:09:21.443
be looked at at least by somebody um

01:09:21.643 --> 01:09:23.944
and the amount of software developers i've

01:09:23.984 --> 01:09:25.404
talked to that have just told me like

01:09:25.904 --> 01:09:28.164
the code that ai produces is just bad

01:09:28.204 --> 01:09:31.506
quality code it's just bad like i'm not

01:09:31.846 --> 01:09:33.868
i'm not able to tell the difference but

01:09:34.368 --> 01:09:35.627
i kind of trust you know if someone

01:09:35.667 --> 01:09:37.349
tells me that i'm kind of trusting their

01:09:37.368 --> 01:09:38.890
judgment that like you know the code that

01:09:38.909 --> 01:09:42.411
it's producing is is low quality um so

01:09:42.631 --> 01:09:43.992
i don't know i think this is

01:09:45.609 --> 01:09:47.911
is very unpopular and very out of touch.

01:09:49.131 --> 01:09:50.552
Like it's clear that they're kind of out

01:09:50.573 --> 01:09:51.734
of touch with their community, right?

01:09:51.774 --> 01:09:53.935
Like if we thought about this and,

01:09:53.956 --> 01:09:55.417
you know,

01:09:55.457 --> 01:09:56.917
we looked at the vision of the company

01:09:57.018 --> 01:10:00.020
and we looked at the changes that they

01:10:00.041 --> 01:10:01.962
were trying to make previous to all this

01:10:02.002 --> 01:10:02.363
drama,

01:10:03.082 --> 01:10:04.664
that didn't align with the vision of the

01:10:04.704 --> 01:10:05.685
company, in my opinion.

01:10:06.386 --> 01:10:09.127
And we did have a discussion question here

01:10:09.148 --> 01:10:11.810
because Proton is owned by the Proton

01:10:11.970 --> 01:10:12.671
Foundation,

01:10:12.791 --> 01:10:14.493
which basically allows for

01:10:15.153 --> 01:10:17.333
you know some other external members to

01:10:17.373 --> 01:10:20.615
make decisions to basically you know if

01:10:20.676 --> 01:10:22.817
something like this was to happen get Andy

01:10:22.856 --> 01:10:25.497
removed or make a change in the company's

01:10:25.537 --> 01:10:28.279
direction um so that is one of these

01:10:28.300 --> 01:10:29.801
things where you know we can urge the

01:10:29.820 --> 01:10:31.320
Proton Foundation and the people that are

01:10:31.360 --> 01:10:33.842
part of it to actually make a decision

01:10:34.262 --> 01:10:36.104
and as far as I'm aware that um

01:10:37.511 --> 01:10:40.238
There are people on the actual – on

01:10:40.257 --> 01:10:41.900
the board who have, like,

01:10:41.961 --> 01:10:44.546
executive control over the company that

01:10:44.787 --> 01:10:47.183
Andy can't actually –

01:10:48.037 --> 01:10:49.118
reject basically.

01:10:50.140 --> 01:10:51.661
I'm sure they're all quite good friends

01:10:51.702 --> 01:10:53.042
and all, but, you know,

01:10:53.162 --> 01:10:55.024
I think it's important that they do have

01:10:55.064 --> 01:10:55.744
this foundation.

01:10:56.225 --> 01:10:58.768
It should be in place for circumstances

01:10:58.787 --> 01:10:59.269
like this.

01:10:59.948 --> 01:11:02.391
And I will say the behavior that I've

01:11:02.431 --> 01:11:04.613
seen from Andy does not come across as

01:11:04.654 --> 01:11:07.176
somebody that should be leading a company.

01:11:08.096 --> 01:11:08.537
As a leader,

01:11:08.577 --> 01:11:11.340
you shouldn't be berating people for their

01:11:12.912 --> 01:11:13.893
their contributions.

01:11:13.932 --> 01:11:15.693
You shouldn't be calling them a loser.

01:11:15.934 --> 01:11:18.475
This is all not characteristics of someone

01:11:18.515 --> 01:11:20.095
that should be leading a company.

01:11:20.216 --> 01:11:22.417
This is characteristics of someone who is

01:11:24.018 --> 01:11:26.238
someone that has basically built this

01:11:26.279 --> 01:11:27.319
company from the ground up,

01:11:27.359 --> 01:11:29.480
but that doesn't mean that they deserve to

01:11:29.501 --> 01:11:31.020
be the CEO and they deserve to lead

01:11:31.060 --> 01:11:31.542
the company.

01:11:31.601 --> 01:11:33.243
They just built it from the ground up.

01:11:34.363 --> 01:11:35.203
I think it could be

01:11:36.144 --> 01:11:37.845
a good consideration to actually you know

01:11:37.885 --> 01:11:39.984
bring in someone who actually has proper

01:11:40.024 --> 01:11:42.805
experience leading an organization of this

01:11:42.845 --> 01:11:44.867
size at this point because it is a

01:11:44.886 --> 01:11:46.527
lot bigger than a tiny little startup in

01:11:46.867 --> 01:11:48.266
in two thousand and fourteen at this point

01:11:48.306 --> 01:11:50.747
this is a massive company with you know

01:11:50.768 --> 01:11:52.668
employees across all different continents

01:11:52.708 --> 01:11:54.729
at this point so i'm not sure if

01:11:55.109 --> 01:11:57.390
andy is actually capable of leading a

01:11:57.449 --> 01:11:59.650
company like this considering the behavior

01:11:59.671 --> 01:12:02.591
that we've seen from him from internal um

01:12:03.072 --> 01:12:04.032
communications so

01:12:04.909 --> 01:12:06.810
I think that it could be a good

01:12:06.851 --> 01:12:09.033
decision from Proton to actually consider

01:12:09.974 --> 01:12:11.435
removing him from the organization

01:12:11.475 --> 01:12:13.115
completely because, again,

01:12:13.256 --> 01:12:14.497
it keeps on happening.

01:12:14.877 --> 01:12:17.679
We keep having issues with Andy that keep

01:12:17.719 --> 01:12:18.960
coming up and he keeps having to

01:12:19.000 --> 01:12:19.640
apologize.

01:12:19.720 --> 01:12:21.862
It doesn't inspire confidence in the

01:12:21.903 --> 01:12:22.262
company.

01:12:22.403 --> 01:12:24.725
And I'm sure a lot of people would

01:12:24.765 --> 01:12:28.006
also have the same issues with his

01:12:28.287 --> 01:12:29.328
behavior that we've now seen.

01:12:31.929 --> 01:12:32.349
Yeah, it's funny.

01:12:32.429 --> 01:12:32.850
I actually,

01:12:33.489 --> 01:12:34.529
I was looking through Reddit and the

01:12:34.569 --> 01:12:35.711
second comment was that.

01:12:36.492 --> 01:12:37.391
Yeah, and that's why I like,

01:12:38.813 --> 01:12:39.752
I do want to allow,

01:12:40.854 --> 01:12:41.833
and this is just me probably being a

01:12:41.854 --> 01:12:42.795
little too open-minded.

01:12:42.895 --> 01:12:44.576
I do want to allow some people

01:12:45.372 --> 01:12:45.792
possible,

01:12:45.813 --> 01:12:47.894
like tiny possible room that maybe this

01:12:47.953 --> 01:12:49.675
reporting is wrong because reporters

01:12:49.715 --> 01:12:52.036
aren't perfect, you know, but it's, yeah,

01:12:52.055 --> 01:12:52.935
I have a hard time imagining.

01:12:52.956 --> 01:12:54.577
Cause again, like I've snapped at people.

01:12:54.697 --> 01:12:55.077
I get it.

01:12:55.157 --> 01:12:57.158
I'm sure that being CEO is very stressful,

01:12:57.518 --> 01:12:58.797
but I've never like called somebody

01:12:58.837 --> 01:12:59.179
stupid.

01:12:59.559 --> 01:13:00.578
And I've, I've never like,

01:13:00.859 --> 01:13:02.039
and even when I do snap at people,

01:13:02.159 --> 01:13:03.420
I always come back to them later.

01:13:03.520 --> 01:13:04.680
And I'm just like, Hey man, I'm sorry.

01:13:04.701 --> 01:13:05.240
I snapped at you.

01:13:05.301 --> 01:13:06.220
Like I was really stressed.

01:13:06.582 --> 01:13:07.662
I was hangry, whatever.

01:13:07.761 --> 01:13:09.203
Like I, I'm, I shouldn't have done that.

01:13:09.243 --> 01:13:09.643
I'm sorry.

01:13:10.262 --> 01:13:12.484
And like nobody in there, again,

01:13:12.545 --> 01:13:14.166
unless like four or four has an agenda,

01:13:14.605 --> 01:13:16.466
like nobody in that reporting was just

01:13:16.506 --> 01:13:17.087
like, well,

01:13:17.106 --> 01:13:18.887
he did apologize to me later after the

01:13:18.908 --> 01:13:19.529
meeting was over.

01:13:19.588 --> 01:13:20.970
It's like, nobody said that.

01:13:21.510 --> 01:13:24.891
And it's, yeah, it's just, and it's,

01:13:24.971 --> 01:13:25.912
it's the fact that like,

01:13:26.780 --> 01:13:28.561
The CTO also is like...

01:13:28.902 --> 01:13:30.082
There were other quotes in there that I

01:13:30.103 --> 01:13:32.344
left out where somebody called out the CTO

01:13:33.144 --> 01:13:34.005
and was basically like,

01:13:34.024 --> 01:13:35.404
maybe you shouldn't threaten people's jobs

01:13:35.444 --> 01:13:36.386
on a Friday afternoon.

01:13:36.405 --> 01:13:37.065
That's not cool.

01:13:37.126 --> 01:13:38.386
And the CTO was like, well,

01:13:38.466 --> 01:13:39.806
you should reread what I wrote and come

01:13:39.827 --> 01:13:40.927
back on Monday with questions.

01:13:40.948 --> 01:13:41.787
It's basically what he said.

01:13:41.807 --> 01:13:42.408
And it's just like...

01:13:43.128 --> 01:13:43.670
Damn,

01:13:43.829 --> 01:13:46.171
like the whole leadership seems toxic

01:13:46.192 --> 01:13:47.974
there, which is not great.

01:13:48.014 --> 01:13:48.413
And then again,

01:13:48.434 --> 01:13:49.814
that whole thing about like, oh,

01:13:49.875 --> 01:13:51.516
we're not meeting profit benchmarks.

01:13:51.556 --> 01:13:51.697
Like,

01:13:51.777 --> 01:13:53.259
I don't care if you meet profit

01:13:53.279 --> 01:13:53.738
benchmarks.

01:13:54.019 --> 01:13:55.320
I want you to be profitable because I

01:13:55.341 --> 01:13:56.822
want you to exist in twenty years.

01:13:57.261 --> 01:13:57.722
But like,

01:13:58.222 --> 01:13:59.744
I don't care if you're the next Fortune

01:13:59.784 --> 01:14:00.666
five hundred company.

01:14:01.025 --> 01:14:02.768
That is not what your goal should be.

01:14:03.148 --> 01:14:04.328
And yeah, so.

01:14:05.529 --> 01:14:06.511
I think I'm going to take some time

01:14:06.530 --> 01:14:07.970
this weekend and, um,

01:14:08.051 --> 01:14:09.631
email the proton foundation.

01:14:09.971 --> 01:14:10.893
Um, they do have a,

01:14:11.092 --> 01:14:11.832
I didn't scroll down to it,

01:14:11.853 --> 01:14:12.953
but they do have a contact us by

01:14:12.993 --> 01:14:13.493
email thing.

01:14:13.774 --> 01:14:14.014
Um,

01:14:14.114 --> 01:14:16.496
I might try to track down their personal

01:14:16.536 --> 01:14:17.655
websites and email each of them

01:14:17.695 --> 01:14:18.157
individually.

01:14:18.396 --> 01:14:19.957
Um, you know, or whatever,

01:14:19.997 --> 01:14:21.578
like their individual websites are.

01:14:22.319 --> 01:14:23.920
Cause like, yeah, this is just like,

01:14:23.939 --> 01:14:25.119
this is a leadership problem, dude.

01:14:25.180 --> 01:14:27.400
Like you can't, it's not just about the,

01:14:27.421 --> 01:14:27.560
like,

01:14:27.641 --> 01:14:28.702
actually let me find that comment again.

01:14:28.721 --> 01:14:29.021
I'm ready.

01:14:29.421 --> 01:14:29.983
He said, um,

01:14:31.465 --> 01:14:33.546
He said, ex-global head of software here,

01:14:33.605 --> 01:14:34.907
anyone speaking to employees the way you

01:14:34.947 --> 01:14:36.087
do is not fit to lead people.

01:14:36.367 --> 01:14:37.408
It has nothing to do with style of

01:14:37.448 --> 01:14:38.868
communication or something you can fix by

01:14:38.908 --> 01:14:40.128
bringing on a communications lead.

01:14:40.448 --> 01:14:40.850
It's you.

01:14:40.890 --> 01:14:42.350
You can either take responsibility, no,

01:14:42.390 --> 01:14:42.930
this isn't it,

01:14:43.190 --> 01:14:44.310
and do what's best for the company or

01:14:44.350 --> 01:14:45.872
keep leaving the company and its customers

01:14:45.931 --> 01:14:46.912
are your means to an end.

01:14:47.712 --> 01:14:48.012
And he said,

01:14:48.033 --> 01:14:49.554
this opinion has absolutely nothing to do

01:14:49.573 --> 01:14:50.113
with AI.

01:14:50.354 --> 01:14:51.395
And if you believe the pushback you're

01:14:51.414 --> 01:14:52.335
getting is only due to that,

01:14:52.354 --> 01:14:53.695
then you haven't understood the real issue

01:14:53.716 --> 01:14:54.315
with your actions.

01:14:54.355 --> 01:14:55.056
So yeah, it's like...

01:14:55.777 --> 01:14:56.457
It's the same thing.

01:14:56.497 --> 01:14:58.139
He said, I take responsibility for that.

01:14:58.219 --> 01:14:58.619
Do you?

01:14:59.520 --> 01:15:00.742
And that's why I want to allow a

01:15:00.782 --> 01:15:02.483
little bit of room here.

01:15:02.804 --> 01:15:04.505
Does he actually see, oh man,

01:15:04.966 --> 01:15:05.645
I'm the problem.

01:15:06.447 --> 01:15:09.930
And if he does, then okay, cool.

01:15:10.171 --> 01:15:11.471
But I don't know, man.

01:15:11.492 --> 01:15:12.332
It's going to take time to see if

01:15:12.353 --> 01:15:13.092
he really does.

01:15:13.172 --> 01:15:14.774
If he really understands that he needs to

01:15:14.814 --> 01:15:15.234
change.

01:15:15.895 --> 01:15:17.438
And if he's really going to... Yeah,

01:15:17.478 --> 01:15:17.837
I don't know.

01:15:17.898 --> 01:15:18.057
It's...

01:15:19.198 --> 01:15:20.019
I also want to point out a few

01:15:20.038 --> 01:15:21.840
people in our supporter signal chat have

01:15:21.899 --> 01:15:24.081
noted that this almost read like an

01:15:24.180 --> 01:15:24.761
advertisement.

01:15:25.060 --> 01:15:25.820
Where did it go here?

01:15:27.162 --> 01:15:29.143
Proton CEO responds to people crapping on

01:15:29.162 --> 01:15:30.042
him for using AI.

01:15:30.063 --> 01:15:31.644
We're releasing a better AI model.

01:15:31.663 --> 01:15:34.824
It's just, yeah.

01:15:37.188 --> 01:15:37.988
Somebody said here,

01:15:38.689 --> 01:15:40.090
doesn't Yen also own a huge share of

01:15:40.109 --> 01:15:40.470
Proton?

01:15:40.590 --> 01:15:41.510
I don't believe so.

01:15:41.650 --> 01:15:43.091
I believe when they restructured...

01:15:43.110 --> 01:15:45.353
There's a blog post about it that I

01:15:45.393 --> 01:15:46.592
skimmed a little bit earlier today.

01:15:46.632 --> 01:15:48.854
But I believe when they reorganized into a

01:15:48.895 --> 01:15:49.395
foundation,

01:15:49.814 --> 01:15:52.095
the foundation now owns fifty one percent

01:15:52.136 --> 01:15:52.577
of Proton.

01:15:52.596 --> 01:15:53.957
So they have the controlling share.

01:15:54.637 --> 01:15:54.957
However,

01:15:55.377 --> 01:15:56.899
there's five people on the foundation and

01:15:56.958 --> 01:15:58.140
I know that at least two of them

01:15:58.279 --> 01:15:59.239
are Proton employees.

01:15:59.460 --> 01:16:01.801
So I'm not sure what their bylaws are.

01:16:01.902 --> 01:16:04.662
I'm not sure what the recourse is.

01:16:04.743 --> 01:16:05.423
But yeah, this...

01:16:07.090 --> 01:16:08.069
I feel like somebody needs to put this

01:16:08.090 --> 01:16:08.591
guy in check,

01:16:08.770 --> 01:16:10.070
but I do want to go back.

01:16:10.110 --> 01:16:11.912
Somebody earlier towards the beginning

01:16:12.091 --> 01:16:13.712
asked about what are the alternatives

01:16:13.752 --> 01:16:14.613
besides Tudor?

01:16:15.672 --> 01:16:16.832
I don't have any issues with Tudor.

01:16:16.912 --> 01:16:17.453
I use Tudor.

01:16:17.512 --> 01:16:19.734
I love Tudor, but I think, yeah,

01:16:19.753 --> 01:16:20.134
I think we've,

01:16:20.194 --> 01:16:21.715
we've kind of talked about the issues

01:16:21.755 --> 01:16:23.055
enough unless there's anything else you

01:16:23.074 --> 01:16:23.496
wanted to add,

01:16:23.515 --> 01:16:25.475
but maybe we could talk about if anybody

01:16:25.515 --> 01:16:26.235
does feel like, Nope,

01:16:26.256 --> 01:16:27.617
this is the last straw I'm out.

01:16:28.237 --> 01:16:29.578
Where do we think people should go?

01:16:29.738 --> 01:16:30.938
I know we do have recommendations on our

01:16:30.957 --> 01:16:31.698
website for sure,

01:16:31.898 --> 01:16:33.519
but are there any off the top of

01:16:33.538 --> 01:16:33.798
your head?

01:16:35.409 --> 01:16:37.051
Yeah, I think like you mentioned, Tudor,

01:16:37.091 --> 01:16:38.372
but also just like, you know,

01:16:38.471 --> 01:16:39.752
I've seen a lot of comments to this

01:16:39.773 --> 01:16:41.274
and like people saying like, oh,

01:16:41.314 --> 01:16:42.614
I was on Gmail and I was thinking

01:16:42.636 --> 01:16:43.815
about switching to Proton,

01:16:43.836 --> 01:16:45.176
but now I'm going to stay with Gmail.

01:16:45.197 --> 01:16:46.759
It's like, please, come on.

01:16:46.878 --> 01:16:47.378
That's silly.

01:16:47.559 --> 01:16:48.539
That's a silly decision.

01:16:48.619 --> 01:16:49.280
Please don't do that.

01:16:49.900 --> 01:16:50.541
Yeah, real quick.

01:16:50.822 --> 01:16:51.862
I totally agree with you that one,

01:16:51.882 --> 01:16:54.604
because if even if Proton is this bad,

01:16:54.645 --> 01:16:56.126
I guarantee you Google's worse and it

01:16:56.145 --> 01:16:57.086
doesn't have the encryption.

01:16:57.327 --> 01:16:58.967
So, yeah, I don't know.

01:16:59.007 --> 01:16:59.948
I don't know why you would stay there.

01:17:01.010 --> 01:17:01.671
Sorry, continue.

01:17:01.791 --> 01:17:01.990
Yeah,

01:17:02.051 --> 01:17:03.931
let's not be silly and let's not stay

01:17:03.971 --> 01:17:05.453
on Gmail because of this, right?

01:17:05.493 --> 01:17:07.154
Don't use this as an excuse to just

01:17:07.774 --> 01:17:08.956
sit on Gmail forever.

01:17:09.396 --> 01:17:11.118
There's way more issues with Gmail.

01:17:11.158 --> 01:17:13.180
Like we talked about literally first,

01:17:13.760 --> 01:17:14.860
this episode, we talked about it,

01:17:14.900 --> 01:17:15.542
the first story.

01:17:15.942 --> 01:17:16.743
Please, like...

01:17:17.722 --> 01:17:19.724
proton foundation does control it but also

01:17:19.783 --> 01:17:22.064
he still has chairs of his own jonas

01:17:22.083 --> 01:17:24.265
said okay that's good to know i think

01:17:24.505 --> 01:17:26.305
from what i read though the proton

01:17:26.324 --> 01:17:29.826
foundation has one member who has um veto

01:17:29.865 --> 01:17:32.567
power i believe so even if andy um

01:17:32.806 --> 01:17:34.927
didn't want that then i'm not sure i

01:17:35.047 --> 01:17:37.387
didn't like fact checked that exactly um

01:17:37.667 --> 01:17:39.809
but i did see someone um posting about

01:17:39.849 --> 01:17:40.069
that

01:17:41.569 --> 01:17:43.569
Again, though, as we're saying this,

01:17:43.930 --> 01:17:45.109
this is all breaking news.

01:17:45.149 --> 01:17:46.831
This is all happening within the last

01:17:46.871 --> 01:17:47.451
couple of hours.

01:17:47.470 --> 01:17:50.112
So take that with the grain of salt

01:17:50.131 --> 01:17:50.731
that this is.

01:17:50.872 --> 01:17:51.832
It's a breaking story.

01:17:52.153 --> 01:17:53.573
We don't have all the details at this

01:17:53.613 --> 01:17:53.912
point.

01:17:54.412 --> 01:17:55.014
And again,

01:17:55.333 --> 01:17:56.894
I'm sure more things will come out as

01:17:56.934 --> 01:17:59.994
we're keeping on top of this.

01:18:00.135 --> 01:18:02.095
But it will be interesting to see how

01:18:02.115 --> 01:18:02.796
that pans out.

01:18:02.956 --> 01:18:03.416
Again, though,

01:18:03.695 --> 01:18:05.756
going back to alternative services,

01:18:06.577 --> 01:18:07.658
when it comes to privacy guides,

01:18:07.698 --> 01:18:08.618
we do only recommend...

01:18:09.217 --> 01:18:10.757
three different services,

01:18:10.797 --> 01:18:14.198
and that's ProtonMail, TutorMail,

01:18:14.399 --> 01:18:15.880
and Mailbox.org.

01:18:15.979 --> 01:18:19.081
So basically your two other options are

01:18:19.140 --> 01:18:20.640
Mailbox.org and Tutor,

01:18:20.701 --> 01:18:22.981
which unfortunately don't really come that

01:18:23.021 --> 01:18:24.903
close compared to Proton in a lot of

01:18:24.943 --> 01:18:26.143
ways, I think.

01:18:26.162 --> 01:18:28.564
There's still a feature gap between those,

01:18:29.064 --> 01:18:29.304
but

01:18:30.743 --> 01:18:33.085
I personally would give a mailbox or tutor

01:18:33.125 --> 01:18:33.564
a try.

01:18:33.944 --> 01:18:34.786
It's free to try it.

01:18:34.826 --> 01:18:36.766
So definitely dive in and give them a,

01:18:36.987 --> 01:18:37.988
give them a test to see if it's

01:18:38.007 --> 01:18:40.069
something that could replace proton for

01:18:40.088 --> 01:18:40.248
you.

01:18:40.309 --> 01:18:42.229
But I think it is one of these

01:18:42.310 --> 01:18:43.610
instances where, you know,

01:18:43.951 --> 01:18:46.953
proton has a lot of good features,

01:18:47.092 --> 01:18:48.234
they're good products,

01:18:48.654 --> 01:18:50.996
and it's kind of hard to, uh,

01:18:51.475 --> 01:18:53.377
to want to switch when they are still

01:18:53.436 --> 01:18:55.279
objectively one of the most feature rich

01:18:55.319 --> 01:18:56.439
products in that category.

01:18:56.819 --> 01:18:57.359
Um,

01:18:57.399 --> 01:18:58.680
at least when it comes to privacy and

01:18:58.720 --> 01:18:59.121
security.

01:18:59.984 --> 01:19:02.565
So it is definitely a tricky decision for

01:19:02.586 --> 01:19:04.907
people to make.

01:19:05.226 --> 01:19:06.787
Yeah, I also want to mention real quick,

01:19:06.807 --> 01:19:07.488
because Proton,

01:19:08.568 --> 01:19:09.247
I'm sure a lot of you know,

01:19:09.287 --> 01:19:10.588
Proton does a lot more than email.

01:19:11.429 --> 01:19:13.689
And all this is on our website real

01:19:13.710 --> 01:19:13.869
quick,

01:19:13.890 --> 01:19:14.829
so I'm going to blow through this really,

01:19:14.850 --> 01:19:15.371
really fast.

01:19:15.951 --> 01:19:17.810
But for office suites,

01:19:17.871 --> 01:19:19.011
we recommend LibreOffice.

01:19:19.051 --> 01:19:20.391
We recommend OnlyOffice.

01:19:20.851 --> 01:19:24.913
For VPNs, we recommend Moldad, IVPN, and,

01:19:25.173 --> 01:19:25.474
of course,

01:19:25.533 --> 01:19:26.654
Proton if you're trying to move away from

01:19:26.675 --> 01:19:26.835
them.

01:19:29.127 --> 01:19:30.547
I'm kind of tempted towards IPPN right

01:19:30.587 --> 01:19:30.747
now,

01:19:30.768 --> 01:19:33.548
just because I love their feature where

01:19:33.569 --> 01:19:34.309
when you leave the house,

01:19:34.328 --> 01:19:35.710
the VPN automatically turns on.

01:19:35.729 --> 01:19:39.011
That is one of my favorite things about

01:19:39.270 --> 01:19:39.652
IPPN.

01:19:39.792 --> 01:19:40.931
And of course, Tor browser,

01:19:40.971 --> 01:19:42.512
if you have a very high threat model,

01:19:43.273 --> 01:19:44.394
you should not be relying on a VPN.

01:19:44.753 --> 01:19:46.515
For password managers, we have Bitwarden.

01:19:47.274 --> 01:19:48.194
We have one password.

01:19:48.255 --> 01:19:49.515
We have Persona,

01:19:49.655 --> 01:19:51.957
and we also have KeePass and all its

01:19:52.016 --> 01:19:52.756
various clients.

01:19:54.724 --> 01:19:55.904
Let's see, email aliasing,

01:19:55.925 --> 01:19:57.206
the only other one we recommend.

01:19:57.246 --> 01:19:58.867
SimpleLogin is technically owned by

01:19:59.567 --> 01:20:01.228
Proton, so there's addy.io.

01:20:02.168 --> 01:20:02.429
Actually,

01:20:02.529 --> 01:20:04.409
I did an email aliasing tier list video

01:20:04.430 --> 01:20:04.949
a while ago,

01:20:05.010 --> 01:20:06.291
so you can go check that out.

01:20:07.070 --> 01:20:07.832
Cloud storage,

01:20:07.872 --> 01:20:10.012
we have ProtonDrive and Tresorit and

01:20:10.052 --> 01:20:10.554
Pyrgos.

01:20:11.434 --> 01:20:12.033
And what else?

01:20:12.154 --> 01:20:12.854
Photo management.

01:20:12.875 --> 01:20:14.515
We only do NT is the only one

01:20:14.555 --> 01:20:15.055
we recommend.

01:20:15.076 --> 01:20:17.176
Um, proton technically does that.

01:20:17.636 --> 01:20:19.117
Somebody asked a minute ago about AI

01:20:19.136 --> 01:20:19.577
chats.

01:20:19.856 --> 01:20:20.717
Um,

01:20:20.757 --> 01:20:22.217
we do have a couple recommendations for

01:20:22.257 --> 01:20:22.519
that.

01:20:23.378 --> 01:20:25.300
Um, mostly offline stuff.

01:20:25.539 --> 01:20:28.400
Um, Kobold, Oh, Lama, Lama file.

01:20:29.240 --> 01:20:31.002
Um, I admittedly,

01:20:31.141 --> 01:20:32.563
I was using Luma a little bit just

01:20:32.603 --> 01:20:33.943
because I'm trying to use the Mulvad

01:20:33.962 --> 01:20:35.043
browser more.

01:20:35.243 --> 01:20:35.823
And, um,

01:20:37.247 --> 01:20:38.969
I mostly use either Leo or Lumo.

01:20:39.069 --> 01:20:39.529
And I was like, well,

01:20:39.550 --> 01:20:40.449
if I use Lumo more,

01:20:40.550 --> 01:20:42.171
at least I can get off Brave Browser.

01:20:42.591 --> 01:20:42.971
But honestly,

01:20:42.992 --> 01:20:44.533
I've always felt like Leo was more high

01:20:44.552 --> 01:20:45.474
quality, in my opinion,

01:20:46.694 --> 01:20:48.055
as far as online chatbots go.

01:20:48.095 --> 01:20:48.935
That's not like an official

01:20:48.975 --> 01:20:49.916
recommendation, obviously.

01:20:50.016 --> 01:20:51.296
But yeah.

01:20:51.497 --> 01:20:54.479
And then for two-factor,

01:20:55.079 --> 01:20:57.640
like Jordan said earlier, NTOth or Aegis.

01:20:57.902 --> 01:20:58.061
So...

01:20:59.332 --> 01:21:01.573
Yeah, again, that's all on our website.

01:21:01.632 --> 01:21:02.774
I know I blew through that pretty,

01:21:02.793 --> 01:21:03.314
pretty fast.

01:21:03.594 --> 01:21:05.694
So just wanted to make sure we threw

01:21:05.734 --> 01:21:06.335
those out there.

01:21:06.735 --> 01:21:10.037
So what else did we have here?

01:21:12.997 --> 01:21:14.198
Mr. Spoon said,

01:21:15.399 --> 01:21:16.960
mainstream non-privacy competitors have

01:21:17.000 --> 01:21:17.980
much more controversy.

01:21:18.180 --> 01:21:18.461
Yeah,

01:21:18.600 --> 01:21:20.341
it's kind of agreeing with what we were

01:21:20.362 --> 01:21:20.521
saying.

01:21:20.542 --> 01:21:20.742
It's like,

01:21:20.761 --> 01:21:22.323
why would you stay on Gmail or something

01:21:22.342 --> 01:21:23.023
like that right now?

01:21:25.306 --> 01:21:26.850
Apparently somebody in four Oh four,

01:21:27.430 --> 01:21:28.953
one of the proton devs said not much

01:21:28.972 --> 01:21:30.255
could have happened due to yen having the

01:21:30.274 --> 01:21:31.436
majority of protons shares.

01:21:31.497 --> 01:21:31.858
Yikes.

01:21:31.997 --> 01:21:32.698
I hope that's not true.

01:21:33.761 --> 01:21:35.224
And, uh, yeah.

01:21:35.969 --> 01:21:37.289
I think there's actually one more thing I

01:21:37.329 --> 01:21:39.212
wanted to throw out there.

01:21:40.252 --> 01:21:42.373
If we have just a second,

01:21:42.493 --> 01:21:43.354
where did it go?

01:21:43.395 --> 01:21:45.556
There it is.

01:21:45.577 --> 01:21:46.957
So this is something I've seen floating

01:21:46.997 --> 01:21:47.457
around.

01:21:47.677 --> 01:21:48.479
If you guys kind of want to like

01:21:48.498 --> 01:21:49.099
spread the word,

01:21:49.118 --> 01:21:50.180
how do I get it up here?

01:21:50.881 --> 01:21:51.801
I closed too early.

01:21:52.462 --> 01:21:53.743
It's called molecule dot build.

01:21:53.943 --> 01:21:56.545
It's from some of the people who work

01:21:56.585 --> 01:21:58.867
at proton and they're basically trying to

01:21:58.886 --> 01:21:59.266
get their,

01:21:59.407 --> 01:22:03.189
their fellow employees to unionize to have

01:22:03.210 --> 01:22:03.750
a little bit more,

01:22:04.853 --> 01:22:06.814
safety over speaking up and being like,

01:22:06.854 --> 01:22:06.974
hey,

01:22:07.014 --> 01:22:08.234
I think this is a bad idea and

01:22:08.274 --> 01:22:09.614
not being retaliated against.

01:22:09.734 --> 01:22:11.595
So yeah,

01:22:11.795 --> 01:22:13.735
feel free to check that out if you

01:22:13.756 --> 01:22:15.417
guys are interested in that.

01:22:15.457 --> 01:22:18.797
So yeah, DuckDuckGo has AI.

01:22:18.837 --> 01:22:22.198
Some people said Duck.AI has been solid

01:22:22.238 --> 01:22:22.479
enough.

01:22:24.173 --> 01:22:25.975
Yeah, I think it's kind of important,

01:22:25.996 --> 01:22:30.279
though, for this unionization to happen.

01:22:30.899 --> 01:22:32.260
I was personally like, you know,

01:22:32.279 --> 01:22:33.720
when I saw this story breaking,

01:22:34.341 --> 01:22:36.422
I looked into Switzerland's labor laws

01:22:36.523 --> 01:22:36.903
and, you know,

01:22:37.264 --> 01:22:39.645
are they allowed to re-interview and ask

01:22:39.664 --> 01:22:41.206
about AI and then fire you because of

01:22:41.225 --> 01:22:41.447
that?

01:22:41.886 --> 01:22:42.828
And the answer is yes.

01:22:43.408 --> 01:22:44.448
They don't actually have to have a reason

01:22:44.488 --> 01:22:45.850
to fire you in Switzerland.

01:22:47.211 --> 01:22:47.430
So, yeah.

01:22:47.853 --> 01:22:49.094
That's the thing that you need to know,

01:22:49.134 --> 01:22:49.475
I guess.

01:22:50.456 --> 01:22:51.976
Kind of crappy, I guess.

01:22:52.497 --> 01:22:53.698
That's definitely not the case in a lot

01:22:53.719 --> 01:22:54.159
of places.

01:22:54.220 --> 01:22:56.782
So that's another reason why they should

01:22:56.801 --> 01:22:57.622
be trying to do that.

01:22:58.104 --> 01:23:01.407
I think it's kind of inevitable that a

01:23:01.426 --> 01:23:03.710
lot of companies are pushing AI tools and

01:23:03.869 --> 01:23:05.190
forcing their employees to use them.

01:23:05.612 --> 01:23:06.011
But again,

01:23:06.412 --> 01:23:08.635
Proton is a company that is supposed to

01:23:08.675 --> 01:23:10.516
be, supposed to be,

01:23:11.314 --> 01:23:13.876
alternative to big tech supposed to be not

01:23:13.916 --> 01:23:15.978
doing these things that crappy big tech

01:23:15.997 --> 01:23:18.059
companies are doing but they're dumping

01:23:18.899 --> 01:23:21.140
i'm gonna assume tens of thousands of

01:23:21.180 --> 01:23:24.242
dollars into claude tokens and like chat

01:23:24.261 --> 01:23:28.264
gpt open ai tokens like this is it

01:23:28.304 --> 01:23:30.305
doesn't feel like the greatest use of the

01:23:30.364 --> 01:23:32.605
money that they receive from users right

01:23:32.626 --> 01:23:34.067
if they're dumping a bunch of this back

01:23:34.106 --> 01:23:35.568
into big tech they're basically just

01:23:37.115 --> 01:23:38.257
being big tech at that point.

01:23:38.278 --> 01:23:39.960
You're just funneling money back into big

01:23:40.000 --> 01:23:40.220
tech.

01:23:40.239 --> 01:23:42.243
It doesn't make that much sense.

01:23:43.685 --> 01:23:45.787
I think if we were to,

01:23:46.287 --> 01:23:48.511
let's say if we were to be completely

01:23:48.551 --> 01:23:51.175
fine with AI, like a hundred percent fine,

01:23:51.335 --> 01:23:52.997
all right, cool, AI, using it.

01:23:53.842 --> 01:23:56.163
you would want them to not be dumping

01:23:56.203 --> 01:23:58.506
the money into Claude or into OpenAI.

01:23:58.565 --> 01:23:59.905
You would want them to be using something

01:23:59.945 --> 01:24:00.367
internal,

01:24:00.386 --> 01:24:03.127
which at least they've acknowledged is

01:24:03.188 --> 01:24:05.109
something that they seem to be moving

01:24:05.149 --> 01:24:07.670
towards possibly instead of using these

01:24:07.871 --> 01:24:09.572
big tech AI models.

01:24:10.212 --> 01:24:11.813
Again, though, it doesn't feel great,

01:24:11.853 --> 01:24:13.974
especially when you're paying a lot of

01:24:14.033 --> 01:24:16.074
money to pay for Proton.

01:24:16.114 --> 01:24:17.216
It's not a cheap service.

01:24:17.256 --> 01:24:18.055
You're paying a lot of money.

01:24:18.595 --> 01:24:20.096
You're wanting a premium service.

01:24:20.617 --> 01:24:22.417
You don't want your money going to

01:24:22.478 --> 01:24:23.158
something that is

01:24:24.283 --> 01:24:26.686
um somewhat unethical like you know giving

01:24:26.827 --> 01:24:30.390
tokens to to Claude and stuff um Jonas

01:24:30.411 --> 01:24:32.592
says well tens of thousands of dollars of

01:24:32.632 --> 01:24:34.395
tokens is probably like nothing could be

01:24:34.435 --> 01:24:36.436
more yeah literally it could be five

01:24:36.476 --> 01:24:38.279
hundred thousand dollars of tokens like

01:24:38.319 --> 01:24:40.301
that's barely anything at this point right

01:24:40.841 --> 01:24:42.523
um I see people going through you know

01:24:43.104 --> 01:24:45.265
literally millions of dollars of tokens um

01:24:46.127 --> 01:24:49.189
and it's it's it's ridiculous so it is

01:24:49.210 --> 01:24:51.271
uh well let's hope that they're not

01:24:51.311 --> 01:24:53.173
spending up five hundred thousand dollars

01:24:53.213 --> 01:24:55.456
on tokens but it's certainly possible

01:24:55.577 --> 01:24:57.297
because that definitely does happen at

01:24:57.358 --> 01:24:59.140
lots of uh software development companies

01:24:59.199 --> 01:25:02.302
so um again though that money being

01:25:02.342 --> 01:25:04.564
funneled back into big tech is like it's

01:25:04.605 --> 01:25:06.346
kind of antithetical to the entire mission

01:25:06.386 --> 01:25:09.189
which is kind of frustrating um

01:25:11.399 --> 01:25:11.560
Yeah,

01:25:11.579 --> 01:25:13.081
a couple of people mentioning here things

01:25:13.201 --> 01:25:15.063
about like, you know, different AI tools.

01:25:15.502 --> 01:25:17.083
Do you want to maybe talk about those?

01:25:17.104 --> 01:25:19.386
Have you used either DuckDuckGo or Ecosia?

01:25:20.747 --> 01:25:21.186
I haven't.

01:25:21.627 --> 01:25:23.287
DuckDuckGo is basically,

01:25:23.328 --> 01:25:24.009
from what I understand,

01:25:24.048 --> 01:25:26.130
it's basically just a proxy for like chat

01:25:26.171 --> 01:25:27.752
GPT and stuff, which I mean,

01:25:27.771 --> 01:25:29.453
to their defense, they say that they like,

01:25:31.413 --> 01:25:32.274
I know I already said proxy,

01:25:32.295 --> 01:25:33.315
but they kind of proxy it.

01:25:33.355 --> 01:25:33.815
So like,

01:25:35.894 --> 01:25:37.715
OpenAI gets some of your queries,

01:25:37.774 --> 01:25:39.115
but they don't necessarily get all the

01:25:39.155 --> 01:25:40.157
metadata around it,

01:25:40.337 --> 01:25:42.497
and they're not supposed to train on your

01:25:42.537 --> 01:25:43.798
queries and stuff like that.

01:25:44.198 --> 01:25:44.498
So yeah,

01:25:44.538 --> 01:25:46.680
it's definitely better than Firefox,

01:25:46.720 --> 01:25:47.720
for example, where it's like,

01:25:48.060 --> 01:25:49.801
we have an AI integration, and it's like,

01:25:49.822 --> 01:25:51.382
this is literally just a bookmark to chat

01:25:51.403 --> 01:25:51.882
GPT.

01:25:51.904 --> 01:25:52.944
This is freaking useless.

01:25:54.585 --> 01:25:55.786
Can't resist taking a shot at Mozilla when

01:25:55.805 --> 01:25:56.046
I can.

01:25:56.405 --> 01:25:56.926
So yeah,

01:25:57.466 --> 01:25:58.887
but I've never used it myself because

01:25:58.908 --> 01:25:59.047
again,

01:25:59.068 --> 01:26:00.890
there's like Leo where they say like we

01:26:00.930 --> 01:26:02.170
host it on our own servers.

01:26:02.591 --> 01:26:03.451
It's, you know,

01:26:04.152 --> 01:26:05.453
I think it's supposed to be encrypted at

01:26:05.512 --> 01:26:06.894
rest or something like Lumo is.

01:26:08.015 --> 01:26:09.354
But it's from what I understand,

01:26:09.375 --> 01:26:10.676
it seems like it's much more privacy

01:26:10.716 --> 01:26:11.896
preserving for the end user.

01:26:12.497 --> 01:26:13.018
And again,

01:26:13.158 --> 01:26:14.458
I found the accuracy to be pretty good

01:26:14.519 --> 01:26:14.918
on Leo.

01:26:15.380 --> 01:26:17.161
So I really like that one, but yeah.

01:26:17.789 --> 01:26:18.170
I don't know.

01:26:18.650 --> 01:26:19.251
I, again,

01:26:19.390 --> 01:26:21.231
I also don't use a ton of AI.

01:26:21.351 --> 01:26:22.813
I mostly just use it for like when

01:26:22.832 --> 01:26:24.814
I'm troubleshooting a technical issue and

01:26:24.875 --> 01:26:26.036
I feel like it's really good at that.

01:26:26.416 --> 01:26:27.877
But then like everything else, it's like,

01:26:28.636 --> 01:26:30.118
like I've experimented with it in the past

01:26:30.158 --> 01:26:31.738
about like, write me a blog post.

01:26:31.800 --> 01:26:32.100
And it's like,

01:26:32.119 --> 01:26:33.440
this doesn't sound anything like me.

01:26:33.501 --> 01:26:35.101
This is whack or, you know,

01:26:35.162 --> 01:26:35.862
write me a script.

01:26:35.902 --> 01:26:36.302
And it's like,

01:26:36.682 --> 01:26:38.804
this definitely sounds like an AI script.

01:26:38.863 --> 01:26:40.765
So I kind of don't use it a

01:26:40.826 --> 01:26:44.328
ton just for complex questions about,

01:26:44.368 --> 01:26:44.528
you know,

01:26:44.547 --> 01:26:45.588
if I go to search engine and I

01:26:45.628 --> 01:26:46.649
look something up and it's like,

01:26:48.479 --> 01:26:48.918
Like, actually,

01:26:48.958 --> 01:26:50.539
this is a really good – this headline

01:26:50.560 --> 01:26:51.180
story, Gmail.

01:26:51.661 --> 01:26:53.801
It's like Gmail originally promised that

01:26:53.822 --> 01:26:57.443
they weren't going to train on your data.

01:26:58.243 --> 01:26:58.783
Not originally,

01:26:58.804 --> 01:27:00.305
but they said that in twenty seventeen.

01:27:00.625 --> 01:27:01.824
And I couldn't remember what year it was.

01:27:01.845 --> 01:27:02.966
So I went to a search engine and

01:27:03.006 --> 01:27:03.386
I was like,

01:27:04.326 --> 01:27:06.186
Gmail promises to stop training on data.

01:27:06.287 --> 01:27:06.688
And of course,

01:27:06.787 --> 01:27:08.167
all the articles are from this week about

01:27:08.228 --> 01:27:08.768
this story.

01:27:09.269 --> 01:27:09.368
And.

01:27:10.684 --> 01:27:11.225
In this case,

01:27:11.265 --> 01:27:12.364
it's easy enough to just go up and

01:27:12.385 --> 01:27:13.525
set a filter and be like, okay,

01:27:13.546 --> 01:27:15.466
give me everything before the start of the

01:27:15.507 --> 01:27:15.768
month.

01:27:15.887 --> 01:27:16.988
And that surfaced it.

01:27:17.389 --> 01:27:18.710
But sometimes I ask a question that it's

01:27:18.729 --> 01:27:19.689
like, no matter how I word it,

01:27:19.770 --> 01:27:21.631
all I get is like SEO crap or

01:27:21.731 --> 01:27:22.511
unrelated crap.

01:27:22.853 --> 01:27:23.893
And those are the moments where it's like,

01:27:23.972 --> 01:27:24.212
okay,

01:27:24.233 --> 01:27:25.914
I'm going to go to the AI and

01:27:25.975 --> 01:27:26.454
I guarantee you,

01:27:26.475 --> 01:27:27.695
it's going to find exactly what I'm

01:27:27.735 --> 01:27:28.176
talking about.

01:27:28.275 --> 01:27:29.377
Nine out of ten times it does.

01:27:29.436 --> 01:27:33.060
So I try to save it for that.

01:27:33.079 --> 01:27:33.720
But yeah.

01:27:35.484 --> 01:27:37.626
I was looking through Andy's personal

01:27:37.905 --> 01:27:39.225
Reddit account because I was like, oh,

01:27:39.265 --> 01:27:41.027
I wonder if he's posted any more

01:27:41.067 --> 01:27:42.408
responses, actually.

01:27:42.828 --> 01:27:43.469
And he did,

01:27:43.529 --> 01:27:46.890
and he got completely lambasted in the

01:27:46.909 --> 01:27:47.831
replies yesterday,

01:27:48.270 --> 01:27:50.131
which I really want to quickly cover what

01:27:50.152 --> 01:27:52.193
he said because I feel like it is

01:27:52.233 --> 01:27:52.894
kind of important.

01:27:53.493 --> 01:27:53.814
Again,

01:27:54.054 --> 01:27:56.775
he said in the post today that he

01:27:56.815 --> 01:27:58.596
was sorry about his actions, but...

01:27:59.676 --> 01:28:00.296
The other day,

01:28:00.355 --> 01:28:02.676
he actually said in a response to,

01:28:02.896 --> 01:28:04.356
let me just read the quote first and

01:28:04.377 --> 01:28:05.396
then what he responded with.

01:28:05.896 --> 01:28:07.738
Andy Yen, the CEO of Proton,

01:28:07.778 --> 01:28:08.957
had a message for an employee in the

01:28:08.997 --> 01:28:11.158
company's security Slack channel who urged

01:28:11.177 --> 01:28:12.257
the company to at least take a few

01:28:12.278 --> 01:28:14.439
days to pen test newly written code before

01:28:14.458 --> 01:28:15.158
pushing it live.

01:28:15.479 --> 01:28:16.618
The quote itself is,

01:28:16.719 --> 01:28:18.119
that's bullshit and loser thinking.

01:28:18.479 --> 01:28:18.960
Of course,

01:28:19.020 --> 01:28:20.840
it's possible to be fast and secure.

01:28:21.439 --> 01:28:22.680
Yen wrote in the channel at the end

01:28:22.720 --> 01:28:23.199
of August.

01:28:23.761 --> 01:28:25.381
And then another quote, stop thinking...

01:28:26.140 --> 01:28:27.962
are always of how to be slower and

01:28:28.002 --> 01:28:30.987
focus more on how to be faster.

01:28:31.027 --> 01:28:31.847
Here's a reply to this

01:28:32.761 --> 01:28:34.762
to this quote was actually happy to,

01:28:35.483 --> 01:28:37.725
basically they, someone said,

01:28:38.125 --> 01:28:38.965
assuming this is true,

01:28:38.984 --> 01:28:41.087
this is some Elon level BS.

01:28:42.347 --> 01:28:43.347
And someone responded to that,

01:28:43.988 --> 01:28:45.029
Andy responded to that saying,

01:28:45.270 --> 01:28:46.329
happy to answer actually,

01:28:46.690 --> 01:28:48.412
since the quote above was taken out of

01:28:48.452 --> 01:28:49.051
context.

01:28:49.452 --> 01:28:50.972
I'm not really sure how you could take

01:28:51.033 --> 01:28:51.873
that out of context.

01:28:51.913 --> 01:28:52.354
Like that,

01:28:52.594 --> 01:28:54.355
just the fact that you said that is

01:28:54.515 --> 01:28:56.617
kind of concerning without any context

01:28:56.777 --> 01:28:57.278
added to that.

01:28:57.337 --> 01:28:59.559
That is already concerning like behavior

01:29:00.099 --> 01:29:01.380
to talk to your employees.

01:29:03.837 --> 01:29:05.917
Proton today does way more security

01:29:05.957 --> 01:29:07.278
reviewing than we've done at any time in

01:29:07.297 --> 01:29:08.698
the past with the proliferation of AI

01:29:08.738 --> 01:29:08.997
tools.

01:29:09.057 --> 01:29:10.698
Our code is also under more third-party

01:29:10.717 --> 01:29:11.818
scrutiny than ever before.

01:29:15.899 --> 01:29:17.259
Basically, he said, however,

01:29:18.038 --> 01:29:20.079
several extra days of human review is not

01:29:20.119 --> 01:29:21.979
the correct way to confront this challenge

01:29:22.079 --> 01:29:23.640
of AI scanning of code.

01:29:24.761 --> 01:29:26.280
We still have human review,

01:29:26.320 --> 01:29:28.140
but now augmented by AI.

01:29:29.581 --> 01:29:31.421
It has been exceptionally good at finding

01:29:31.481 --> 01:29:32.681
vulnerabilities in code.

01:29:33.122 --> 01:29:34.904
Sometime now Proton has also been using

01:29:35.064 --> 01:29:37.487
unaligned models with custom skills to do

01:29:37.546 --> 01:29:38.929
a thorough review of our code.

01:29:38.948 --> 01:29:43.733
This approach is better and also faster.

01:29:44.774 --> 01:29:45.354
Yeah, anyway,

01:29:45.515 --> 01:29:47.716
also if there's no context there,

01:29:47.936 --> 01:29:49.279
maybe he should have provided it.

01:29:49.679 --> 01:29:51.140
Why would you say this to someone

01:29:52.298 --> 01:29:53.699
your company this is not a professional

01:29:53.720 --> 01:29:56.261
way to to operate um so yeah just

01:29:56.320 --> 01:29:58.222
just really really unfortunate stuff from

01:29:58.363 --> 01:30:00.663
from andy i'm just not really i'm not

01:30:00.684 --> 01:30:02.725
really enjoying his responses and i really

01:30:02.765 --> 01:30:04.445
think he needs to just log off um

01:30:05.606 --> 01:30:09.748
like just please stop you would appreciate

01:30:09.769 --> 01:30:11.470
though that uh somebody replied to this on

01:30:11.529 --> 01:30:13.270
reddit and said your response is bullshit

01:30:13.291 --> 01:30:14.011
and loser thinking

01:30:16.912 --> 01:30:18.092
I mean, it's on Reddit.

01:30:18.113 --> 01:30:20.014
I think that's fine to say on Reddit.

01:30:20.054 --> 01:30:21.914
But if you're talking to an employee,

01:30:21.975 --> 01:30:23.896
then, you know,

01:30:24.657 --> 01:30:27.698
maybe he should have provided it, Lamao.

01:30:27.719 --> 01:30:28.619
Yeah, I mean,

01:30:29.479 --> 01:30:30.881
what is the context for saying that to

01:30:30.921 --> 01:30:31.261
somebody?

01:30:31.442 --> 01:30:34.224
Like that is like already by itself

01:30:34.243 --> 01:30:35.965
without any context, very concerning.

01:30:36.564 --> 01:30:37.445
And with context,

01:30:37.865 --> 01:30:38.907
what is the context for that?

01:30:38.966 --> 01:30:41.268
Like seriously,

01:30:41.609 --> 01:30:43.109
it's just really concerning when you see

01:30:43.149 --> 01:30:45.511
someone who's supposed to be leading a

01:30:45.551 --> 01:30:45.890
company.

01:30:47.192 --> 01:30:47.771
And, you know,

01:30:49.153 --> 01:30:50.713
saying this sort of things to your

01:30:50.734 --> 01:30:52.595
employees is really concerning.

01:30:53.635 --> 01:30:55.355
I think, yeah, anyway,

01:30:55.416 --> 01:30:57.596
I just think this is kind of falling

01:30:57.617 --> 01:30:59.438
apart and showing that, you know,

01:30:59.677 --> 01:31:01.738
maybe Andy being in charge of the company

01:31:02.198 --> 01:31:03.639
is not really working out too great.

01:31:03.658 --> 01:31:07.820
We keep seeing issues with him making

01:31:07.881 --> 01:31:09.162
posts and people just really,

01:31:09.481 --> 01:31:10.242
really not liking it.

01:31:10.261 --> 01:31:14.604
So something needs to change.

01:31:14.823 --> 01:31:15.784
Something definitely needs to change.

01:31:15.805 --> 01:31:15.885
Yeah.

01:31:17.375 --> 01:31:18.135
Yeah, for sure.

01:31:18.494 --> 01:31:23.015
I, um, I don't know.

01:31:23.095 --> 01:31:23.296
I just,

01:31:23.377 --> 01:31:24.636
I feel like it's a whole leadership thing.

01:31:24.676 --> 01:31:25.296
It's not just Andy.

01:31:25.377 --> 01:31:26.516
Cause again, there was the CTO.

01:31:26.537 --> 01:31:27.597
Maybe it's just the two of them,

01:31:27.677 --> 01:31:29.457
but I don't know, man.

01:31:29.478 --> 01:31:32.298
I, it's a, it worries me.

01:31:32.458 --> 01:31:33.578
It worries me for now.

01:31:33.719 --> 01:31:34.418
I'm not, I mean,

01:31:34.458 --> 01:31:35.899
I'm already mostly off proton.

01:31:35.960 --> 01:31:37.199
I do still use the VPN.

01:31:38.079 --> 01:31:41.701
Um, but I'm not, uh,

01:31:41.720 --> 01:31:43.242
feeling super great about their future,

01:31:43.301 --> 01:31:44.442
but we'll see.

01:31:45.502 --> 01:31:46.384
We'll see what happens, I guess.

01:31:46.404 --> 01:31:48.686
Excuse me.

01:31:50.289 --> 01:31:50.829
Yeah, I don't know.

01:31:51.091 --> 01:31:52.372
That's all I got for this week.

01:31:52.412 --> 01:31:54.234
Kind of a bummer to end on,

01:31:54.335 --> 01:31:56.078
but anything else?

01:31:56.257 --> 01:31:58.240
Yeah, definitely a bit of a bummer.

01:31:58.740 --> 01:32:00.564
I guess we have some questions here.

01:32:02.850 --> 01:32:03.631
I like Firefox,

01:32:03.671 --> 01:32:04.792
but I wouldn't use them if they didn't

01:32:04.811 --> 01:32:05.792
have a furry mascot.

01:32:05.932 --> 01:32:07.253
I mean, yeah,

01:32:07.314 --> 01:32:09.295
that is one of the benefits of Firefox.

01:32:09.314 --> 01:32:10.336
They have a cute mascot,

01:32:10.376 --> 01:32:12.177
but I feel like that can only take

01:32:12.217 --> 01:32:12.898
them so far.

01:32:14.139 --> 01:32:15.319
Really need to see some better stuff from

01:32:15.359 --> 01:32:15.541
them.

01:32:16.121 --> 01:32:16.301
But yeah,

01:32:16.360 --> 01:32:17.662
I'm not seeing any other questions here

01:32:17.681 --> 01:32:18.283
from anybody.

01:32:18.382 --> 01:32:19.923
So we're going to head out into the

01:32:20.043 --> 01:32:20.345
outro.

01:32:21.085 --> 01:32:21.604
This week.

01:32:21.725 --> 01:32:24.006
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