Matt: Hi Um, this is kind of an old school ADHd20 in that, we're
less prepared than we have been.
We used to like winging.
Alison: We do still have one of our primary tenets, which is an outline that
we're gonna possibly throw out the window.
Matt: Exactly.
Yeah.
Alison: So we just keep getting throwbackier and throwbackier.
I love it.
I love the good throwback
Matt: Throwbackier.
Alison: Throwbackier!
Matt: Throwbackier!
Alison: I often say like if I need assistance, I will find
myself calling for an adult.
Like help.
I need an adult.
And people try and point out, but Alison, you are an adult.
To which I reply, right?
But I need an adultier adult.
Matt: Adultier adult, yes.
Alison: Throwbackier throwback is just, fits right into that
little lexicon I've got going on.
Matt: Lexiconier lexicon?
That's true.
Uh, what are we going to speak, uh, about?
Oh, yes.
Sorry.
First we have to say, Welcome everybody to ADHd20, A podcast where
we try to find the intersection between ADHD and D&D and or RPGs.
Alison: In 2023.
We haven't, settled on if we're saying D&D or RPGs, and
I'm okay with being unsettled.
Matt: Yeah.
I wonder what we're gonna feel like after Gary Con, in just a few short
weeks where we are going to be playing a ton of foreign RPGs and maybe
we will just be just swept away.
Alison: Mattie, we could potentially record the next episode of ADHd20
live together with our friend Fitz.
There it is.
Matt: You absolutely are correct.
We can definitely do that.
Alison: Are we gonna just follow Fitz around with that sound effect?
You know, like we're gonna be together live in person and you're gonna be like,
Alison, what do you want for dinner?
And I'm gonna say, I don't know Fitz.
What are you feeling?
And
Matt: I bet you, I bet you I could create a Siri shortcut.
Alison: I was gonna say, let's creep her out and do it, but this
episode will be out before that.
So
Matt: Yeah, that's true.
Alison: Surprise, Fitz.
We're gonna follow you around with your own sound effect.
You're welcome.
Matt: Creepy.
Alison: Creepy, creepy,
Matt: Creepy
Alison: Speaking of Fitz, she actually submitted a question that
we're gonna tackle here in a few.
But first, shall we ADHd100?
Matt: Yes, yes.
All right.
Who wants to go first?
Alison: I will this time.
I'm number 25.
Matt: 25.
What items have you crossed off your bucket list?
Alison: Oh.
Um, have I crossed any items off my bucket list?
My current working bucket list is I do I want to see a concert or a show of
some sort in every state in the country.
Because I think that there's a lot of cool venues in, in, I mean, all over
the world, but I think the United States of America is a great place to start.
Uh, not even close to accomplishing that bucket list, although I
do have a very strong showing across the eastern seaboard.
I'm vamping for time here while I try and figure out if there's anything
cool I can answer this with, um,
Matt: That's pretty cool.
You like music?
That's
Alison: But, but I haven't done it.
And so that's not answering the question, which is have you, um, I'm, I don't know
if it was ever bucket list, but like having a podcast is, is kind of up there.
I used to wanna be a radio dj, like really super badly.
So getting, yeah, getting my voice onto the airwaves was, was a big thing for me.
And I'll also say that going on tour with that fun little band was
like, I wanted to be, performing on said tour, but I, like, I was, I
was close enough to count, I think.
So we'll, consider those two things headway that I've made on the bucket list.
Matt: Nice.
I love that.
Um, Oh my gosh, I got a one.
Alison: Whoa.
Okay.
Tell us about the first D&D character you ever built.
Do you remember?
Matt: Oh, Oh no.
I don't really remember as I was 10 years old.
And I'm sad about that.
I spent this summer hoping to find buried treasure in a, in a, storage space.
And I came up empty.
I was hoping I was gonna find little Matt Bivins' binder full of D&D
stuff, but don't know, still missing.
Um, I guess I could say more about the more recent, right?
Uh, I, created a half drow elf who...
name was Feilimid and Feilimid was female, but had spent many, many years in hiding,
uh, being hunted by her Drow family.
And, so Feilimid in to go into hiding presented as a boy.
So when we started playing, uh, my character was male, and then there
was this big reveal where Feidlimid Oh no, actually Feilimid was female.
Alison: What?
Matt: What?
So that was really fun though.
And Feilimid was a bard.
Oh
Alison: So fun.
love Fei.
Matt: I know.
Good old Fei
Alison: Look how far we have come from our first characters to now.
Matt: Look how wise we are.
Alison: Wizened!
Sage!
Matt: So wizened.
Alison: What a great word.
Matt: I know, I know.
I was about to say this same word, which is amazing.
All right, well that was fun.
Alison: Always.
Matt: Got a couple of topics today.
I think we should start with Fitz's perhaps.
Alison: So we have a sweet little Discord server that we grow more
and more obsessed with by the day.
Uh, and like to kind of poll the crowd from time to time and see if
there's any ADHD or TTRPG things that we haven't brought up or haven't,
haven't delved enough into detail yet.
So, Fitz asked a great question, and that is, I'd love to know if y'all are hit by
the ADHD tax, and if so, in what ways?
Are they the same or different?
Are there hidden costs that you've been hit up with
specifically in the TTRPG space?
Because of the ADHD tax?
Matt: I love it.
Okay, so first let's go over what the ADHD tax is.
Um,
Alison: My suggestion too
Matt: Yeah, so okay from ADDitude, the website, ADDitude, which is
actually, you know, one of the, one of the main ADHD websites.
Uh, It says the tax is why people with ADHD compared to non ADHD
peers, they're poorer in financial situations and exhibit difficulties
with financial decision making.
Number one, they exhibit poorer financial competency and capacity.
They are more financially dependent on family members and they earn
less and attain lower socioeconomic standing over their lifetimes.
It's the obvious and the hidden costs of living with the condition.
And so like they, they give examples of I had to go to the city
courthouse for overdue library books.
The library books were in the trunk of my car.
They belonged to the library.
I drove by every day on my way to work, accruing fines.
I'm years behind on taxes.
Because doing the taxes is difficult.
I waste so much time shopping for groceries that only end up going bad.
I waste even more money buying fast food.
Alison: Mm-hmm.
Matt: those kinds of things.
Alison: Yep.
We
Matt: pay for that and I, we do, I do.
I don't know about
Alison: Oh, I definitely do.
I, the grocery one is huge to the point where I, I have rearranged my
refrigerator so that, like, one of the popular TikTok trends for ADHD and other
executive dysfunction management thereof is putting your condiments in the, uh,
in the, the fruit and veggie drawers.
Yeah, the crisper.
Cuz you're gonna, like, if you want mustard for your sandwich, you're gonna go
find the mustard, but you have to put the asparagus and the apples front and center.
So every time you open that, and I have done that and it really does help.
Um,
Matt: I have found a problem with that though.
Uh, now my vegetables are not as crisp.
Alison: Maybe you just need to do like more short bursts more
frequently to the grocery store.
I've also written myself notes, you know, so maybe you could put
everything back in the crisper but write yourself a little love note on
the door and say, Matt, don't forget.
My favorite, uh, part of the ADHD tax is how willfully ignorant the
rest of the population is about it, case in point, I, use HelloFresh.
So subscription-based meal boxes and subscription-based things are terrible
for people with ADHD cuz we forget.
I forgot I had, skipped several weeks in a row.
So I, I wasn't thinking about it since it had been so long since I'd ordered
a box that somehow a week crept in.
Suddenly I got charged the same day I went to the grocery store and
bought a week's worth of groceries.
So then it was like double burn that I had just gone and spent the fortune
that now groceries cost, and then also got charged again for a box that
was coming, So I tried to chat their help line and say, could, could you
give me a a hall pass on this, please?
And they had all these excuses for why, well, we've already printed the slip
and in the end I got half the cost of the box back and still received the box.
So it wasn't the end of the world.
Um, And the, the agent's, you know, fix for it was, just
set a calendar reminder for
Matt: No, they actually said
Alison: They said that.
Yeah.
Matt: Rude.
Alison: Yeah, I had tweeted, uh, a couple of weeks ago, I am notoriously
bad at putting a soda in the freezer to get it really icy cold.
99 times out of a hundred I forget about it, and come back to an exploded soda.
And so I, I, I wrote a very quippy tweet of like, I'm just a girl
standing in front of future versions of herself, asking her to please
stop putting sodas in the freezer.
Matt: The freezer.
Alison: So many well-meaning people were like, oh, set a timer.
Oh, oh.
If it was that easy.
Okay.
Um, so, and I know that these are real things that a lot of people
do, so they don't do exactly that, but it is, it is not my, you have
to get into the flow state with it.
Right.
You have to remember, drink goes in freezer, timer goes on phone, and I just
have yet to figure out part B of that.
So yeah.
ADHD tax all over the place here.
I've been trying this whole time to think of though, cuz Fitz's question
was, are there hidden costs you've been hit up specifically in the
tabletop role playing game space?
Matt: Yes.
Um, right now, currently my tax is supporting all of the,
incredible Patreon artists.
I have to, okay.
I have to actually set a monthly task that keeps vomiting up, that
says, check your subscriptions on Patreon, because I usually join them
to get something, which is fine.
You can, you're allowed to do that.
That's the thing about You can jump on and off.
Uh, so I get on and I get what I want and then, you know, but I have
to remember to move things around.
So I'm definitely hit by that.
I would say 95% of my Patreon, the people that I'm supporting at Patreon are RPG.
I also have a problem with buying rules and, adventures
and just guides of all kind.
I just can't seem to not do that.
And they're all great.
I'm never disappointed, but it's a tax because it's not necessary
and it's difficult for me to, um,
Alison: Oh yeah.
I was very convinced that I needed the newly released hardcover
Taldori Reborn campaign setting.
You wanna guess how many times I have flipped open that beautiful book?
Pretty sure it's sitting on my bedroom floor where I took it out of it's box
Matt: Mm-hmm.
so much of that.
So much of that.
Alison: I I was limiting my ADHD tax to subscription based things,
but now that I think about it, yeah, there's a lot of stuff
Matt: That's it too, right?
Like that's, uh,
Alison: My dice bag is just full of full of shinies I had to
have, I could not live without.
Matt: Right, because that's the impulsive part, right?
That's the impulsive part of, ADHD.
And yes, someone could also say, well, just don't do that.
But it's, you know, even when we do put it on our calendar, cuz I do, I'll set
up a subscription to watch something on a channel that we don't usually subscribe
to when we watch, when I watch the series, I have to put five alarms that
start five days before, and sometimes even then I don't do it even then.
Alison: There is for the record, for anybody wondering though, if I can
change, there is a weekly recurring Hello Fresh reminder in my calendar.
Matt: That's good.
Alison: I'm learning, I'm growing
Matt: There's a doctor named Russell Barkley, and he, he's one, you know, we,
we've talked about how ADHD, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder is a
terrible name for how our brains work, but he calls it intention deficit disorder.
Alison: Ooh.
Matt: I still don't think that that covers all of it, but Intention
Deficit Disorder, It, it's so funny because I've met, I've met people
who are not motivated to do things.
And, and I see that that is different from what I go through.
I have every intention to do well.
I have every intention to remember, I have every intention to do that
thing on my list, cancel that subscription, whatever it is.
Alison: Mm-hmm.
Matt: But there is literally something broken in the doing.
Alison: Yep.
Matt: It's not laziness and it's so hard to describe that.
And the, and the sad thing and the frustrating thing is that so many
people who have ADHD and don't know it, myself included at one point, just so,
because you're like, I guess I'm lazy.
I guess I'm just lazy because...
Alison: yeah.
I bought for a really long time that I was lazy while simultaneously bouncing
off of walls because I absolutely have the hyperactive part of ADHD and
always have, and I remember there being like, even as a child, me being like,
I don't feel lazy, but I am exhibiting the symptoms that others, of course, I
didn't think it in that eloquent of a way, but yeah, absolutely intentioned.
I like that a lot.
I did just think of another one, um, that I think ties into RSD is how many times
as neurodivergent types have we not asked for something that we deserved because
we were afraid of the fear of rejection.
That's an ADHD tax.
You know, I, I just, for one of my clients just asked for a new hourly rate
for the first time in five plus years.
Because I had myself convinced that I, it's, it's not even that
I thought I was undeserving, but I just had talked myself out of it
before I ever asked the question.
I didn't give the client the chance to respond.
And as soon as I said, Hey, I, I, I hate to have to do this, but you
know, my rate's gotta increase.
They said, okay, great.
Tell us what the new rate is.
Easy peasy lemon squeezy.
How many times have I, just the fear of rejection has paralyzed me to the point.
And is that an ADHD tax or is that just living?
Um, we could ponder that one all day.
Matt: Yes, I think it's absolutely a part of it.
And then going back to you, you know, contacting Hello Fresh and,
and saying, Hey, look, I, I did this and you know, let's pretend that they
didn't, they didn't condescend to you and say, put it on your calendar.
Uh, you know, let's pretend that that didn't happen.
But there have been so many times where I've had to force myself to,
to say, oh, I missed the thing.
I missed, I missed the deadline.
They charged me.
Guess what happens?
Most of the time they say, oh yes, sorry.
No problem.
Yeah, you missed the deadline.
That's okay.
I'll take it off.
So, so many times.
But I'm afraid, I'm afraid for them to say no.
I'm afraid for them to say, ah, no, you missed the time.
Go to hell.
Alison: Yep.
Matt: But yeah,
Alison: ADHD tax!.
Matt: Yeah.
uh,
Alison: Shall we dive into the big
Matt: a good one.
Alison: chewy topic now?
Matt: Yeah.
Let's dive into the chewy topic.
That was a really good one though.
Thank you, Fitz.
Alison: Thank you, Fitz.
Matt: Yeah.
was, fun.
Um, but yes, this other topic, came up.
Uh, my brother and I we were giving advice to someone in the Bivins Brothers Show.
We were asked if we had Any tips and tricks to someone's first
time playing Dungeons and Dragons.
And, we had so much fun for almost an hour talking about it.
We had professional, Dungeon Masters in the, in the chat that were helping
us out and, and, it was so fun.
But here's the thing, the way that we were talking about it, I kind of stepped
back and I was like, okay, wait a minute.
Do I sound super freaking culty right now?
Are we talking about a cult?
Are we talking about the cult of Dungeons and Dragons?
And it really started sticking with me.
And a little bit of backstory is, I have a lot of experience with cults.
I've not joined one myself, but I've had two beloved people in my life join them.
And, one is still in a cult.
And then one is, well, depending on who you talk to, is also possibly
still in the cult a different kind.
But anyway, um, I had a friend that, I knew since he, he was eight
and we kind of grew up together.
We were neighbors and went to a high school together and art school together,
and then we started a band together and we moved up to Boston eventually.
Cause we played Irish music and we went to Ireland and we then we said,
okay, we're going to move up to Boston.
So we moved to Boston and before I even got there, I was
finishing up work in the south.
He Was approached by some people.
He was busking in the subway and they said, oh, we also play Irish flute.
You should come and have dinner.
And he did.
And he is still there.
He's got five kids.
They moved him to England because he was actually from ireland, but his
father is English is very complicated.
They have very strong beliefs about, your father's origin is where
you are supposed to live, which I don't, I don't really get it.
Um, But it was really, really hard and weird.
And, what I did was, I was at Emerson College at that point,
and I was going to be a writer.
I was taking writing classes, every single creative writing task
I was given, I wrote about cults.
I went to the Scientology Place, and I, and I kind of went in
and talked to the people at the Scientology Center in Boston.
I did all this research on the Moonies, and I mean, name 'em, Kool-Aid kids,
whatever they were called, Jim Jones.
And here's what, okay, here was my takeaway.
Which I think was pretty adult for me as a 22 year old or whatever.
The word cult is not inherently bad.
It is not a bad word.
It has been given a negative connotation over the years and there certainly
have been dangerous, scary cults.
But, uh, a couple of the definitions of cult are, a great devotion to a
person idea, object, movement or work.
The object of such a devotion.
At its simplest form, a system of religious beliefs and ritual.
And I think when I got to a definition like that, I said, oh, yeah, yeah, right.
So.
when Christianity started, when Judaism started, when every
religion started, it was a cult.
It still is, I guess because it is a system of religious beliefs and ritual.
Right?
So that really helped me with my friend cuz I was like, okay, well
there are religions that literally run the world in, in certain areas.
Those are, you know, they have to start somewhere.
So maybe he's going to be okay.
And he is, he's fine.
He's fine.
I think, I don't know.
I think he's okay.
Uh, But then the definitions get a little scarier.
A situation in which people admire and care about something
or someone very much or too much.
Alison: Or too much.
Matt: And that's where I started worrying.
I was like, my, my, my cult trigger's like, yeah.
So what do you think, Alison?
You have to talk about D&D as like, you know, the game that you might try
once in your life, uh, you know, a couple of buds wanna try something new
and say, okay, cool, we'll try D&D.
And you play it.
You move on.
Obviously not a cult.
But hearing you and me talk about it, is it, a cult?
Alison: So everything that you've just mentioned, uh, taken, you
know, kind of from various, by the book definitions of a cult.
And also, yes, to answer your question as uh, someone who identifies as
Christian, there are culty things about it that I will go ahead and admit
out loud and speak into the world.
I think Alison's definition of a cult, like the things I think about that
we haven't really, like, we've talked about the object of devotion, right?
We've talked about a great devotion to a person, right?
For me, the thing that separates a cult from a group of friends
enjoying a hobby together.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Alison: One, there is always a very charismatic leader.
In D&D call this a Game Master.
Matt: Uh, oh.
Where are you going with this?
Okay.
Keep going.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Alison: The other part of that is if there is a leader, there must be disciples.
There must be followers.
Matt: Yes.
Alison: And see, here's the thing, here's where I, I, I would start to argue on the
pro could be considered a cult, could be considered not black and white is a cult.
Okay, let me choose my words carefully here, but could be considered a cult
because there is someone charismatic, something charismatic, drawing
you in and holding you in place.
Uh, and it is a group of people who might not find their way into each other's
lives otherwise, and might, I don't wanna say, might be preyed upon that's a little
bit more serious than, I mean, although that is a facet of some cults, right?
Um,
but I mean, those are, those are kind of the two big facets for
me that, that do check the boxes here in a non treacherous way.
Matt: And I, I think you just said it.
That, that is a big part of it.
Like, my friend Christopher, he, he was preyed upon in, in the sense that
there were techniques used by his group, and I, I'm sure he uses them now too.
It's the love bombing, right?
Like
Alison: Mm-hmm.
Matt: And the, certain techniques that, those charismatic leaders
kind of bring about and, and.
I don't see that so much in D&D.
I don't see that.
I definitely see this seclusion.
I definitely see the, there's, room for cattiness, there's
room for holier than thou-ness.
There's definitely factions that don't agree.
There's like, rules as written, home brew, you know, there's
all, there's all of that.
Alison: Yeah, we're a group of people who want you to be
here cuz you want to be here.
We don't want to hold you in place.
Um, that is, you're right.
A very important distinction to make is that I've never, felt like if I
were to come to you and Fitz and Evan tomorrow and say, I love you guys,
I'm gonna need to pull back from D&D.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Alison: I like, I think that you guys would be honestly shocked because
of my level of, you know, passion.
But I don't, I don't think it would be, you know, a, a a
game ender for our friendships.
Right?
And I get that sense of that in cults that when you, when you leave,
you have to break away entirely.
There's no, let's just be friends after this relationship.
It's either all in or all out.
So in that way, I would say D&D is very not culty because we're very much a come
as you are, stay as long as you like.
And you know, with cults you tend to think there's, there can be one leader, right?
There has to be this hierarchy.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Alison: I don't feel that way about D&D.
Like, I think, you know, you love being a GM and are gifted at it, but I, I
think anytime that I have showed any kind of interest, you have been nothing but
supportive and never no, this is my game.
Sit down, peon, or anything like that.
Matt: "Sit down peon."
Alison: Things that Matt, you know, would never say.
It's just, it was interesting though to hear you talk about,
your early experience with cults.
Right.
I was talking with a group of friends last week and one of them was telling
me about some Hulu documentary that they had watched on a cult that had
preyed on young women in college.
And as they're telling me the story and as they're telling me about
what this cult leader did, to prey upon these young women.
I, I was struck with the realization that like, at the wrong place and time, that
could have been me, there was a, a prior version of Alison that needed that love
bombing and all of those different things.
And I'm like, I'm really glad that I was never in that situation cuz I
I probably would've fallen for it.
Matt: Yeah.
Alison: Right?
Because somebody would've been loving me and giving me something.
And It's kind of like narcissists where they make you feel, you know,
and we've talked about even with us, like making people feel seen
and heard and stuff like that, but that could also be used as a really
dangerous instrument of manipulation.
Um, so it's interesting to hear about you, you know, like I had this sliding
doors moment when you were telling, I'm like, but Matt, you, you know, started
out playing, you know, tin whistle and pan flute and all of these things.
What if you had been in the subway that day instead of Christopher?
Would that have, it doesn't sound like it, but I'm here saying, oh, if I had been in
the wrong place at the wrong time, this podcast would not exist because I would
be too busy living in a cult somewhere.
Matt: That's interesting that you say that.
That's real talk, because...
I, I could see that about you, but I have to say, that would
definitely be young Alison.
Like, I don't, I don't, I wouldn't see that now.
I definitely would not see that now.
And the people that I've known, there is something in them that needs it, that
needs it real bad, whatever it is that...
Okay, here's, here's what I've thought is the difference.
And this is just my own opinion.
But in my mind, the people who are really, really susceptible to joining
cults are ones that do not enjoy the process of thinking for themselves.
Alison: Hmm.
Matt: Of being for themselves.
I'm not saying that they don't have thoughts, and I'm definitely not
saying they're not intelligent.
Christopher was very intelligent, but there was always a, a need for him to
join so that he could just have it go.
You know, before the cult, he either wanted to be a monk or be in a band.
Honestly, both of those pretty culty, I will admit.
Because the band is a secular group.
You have to depend on each other.
You have to do things.
Except, the difference is you know, it's a very small group.
Not everybody can join, but I think that the, the people who are really
drawn are, are the people who have a harder time thinking for themselves.
And I don't think, think of you as that way.
Alison: Okay, so let me Yes, and that.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Alison: With this.
I think that there comes a time in everybody's life when you
realize, nobody's coming for me.
Nobody's coming to save me.
Matt: Mm.
Alison: I gotta do this myself.
And I think that that's when your life truly begins is when you have
that moment of I and I alone am responsible for my own happiness.
Right?
So put another way, it's not that somebody is requiring someone else to
think for them, but it does suggest to me that they are in a thought pattern
of I'm relying on outside forces to fulfill me, to make me happy, to drive me
Matt: Yeah,
Alison: is how I would, I would look at that.
Matt: That's better.
Yeah.
Let's not bring intelligence into it.
Alison: Yeah, exactly.
Prior versions of Alison definitely relied heavily on outside stimuli.
Is that, is it stimuluses stimulusi, stimuli?
Matt: Hmm.
Alison: Anywho?
I,
Yeah, Younger versions of myself wanted to be, I want you to feed
me, I want you to entertain me.
I want you to provide me my happiness.
40 year old Alison understands nobody but me is responsible for that.
Not my partner, not my friends.
You know, nothing.
Matt: I mean, you're still a fan.
You are still exceedingly good at being a fan of things like.
But, but it's different.
There is a level of, of scariness and again, I'm talking about when I saw
my friend go, Hmm, no, I'm making this decision you are not a part of it.
I'm giving away all of my things.
That is, that's not just being a fan.
That is, that is what you're talking about.
That is like a, I'm going to dive off a cliff and these
people are going to catch me.
Yeah.
Alison: Well, and it's the, it's the separation point.
I think that is maybe the defining crux of, is it a cult or isn't it.
A, a fandom, if we wanna use that word, is people who enjoy and share the same things
and are still encouraged to go about their lives with their normal day to days
and have other loves and other fandoms.
Whereas cults seem to be, I own you, you only belong to me.
You must dissociate with everything that you were previously and level up.
so, my wheels are now turning as to how we can bring all things
ADHD back to all things RPGs.
What classes of D&D are most likely to become members of a cult?
Obviously Paladin, obviously Monk.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
. Yes.
Clerics.
I would even go as...
Alison: about say or, or warlocks.
You know, if you are given your powers by a higher power
Matt: Yes.
Is your higher power that that beautiful leader, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Alison: The culty culty culty leader
Matt: Ooh, And, and then the second question is what classes
would be the cult leader?
And that would definitely be Warlock, right?
That would definitely be clerics and warlocks.
Alison: Yeah.
I would see it as clerics first.
Matt: Yeah, clerics first.
Cuz they're
Alison: Paladins be cultists.
Matt: Yes.
Mm-hmm.
. Monks are Cultists part of the fandom?
They're part of the, yeah.
Yeah.
They're,
Alison: they're,
part of
Matt: yeah.
Alison: Are we bad people, Matt?
Matt: I don't know.
I knew this was gonna be a touchy subject.
I, I tried to warn you, like, I don't know if I have a f a fully formulated
concept of this, but I like where we've gotten to though, because, I
think we've made points that prove that Dungeons and Dragons is not a cult.
That it's way too big.
It's way too broad.
Especially if you open it up, to role playing games, then
it's like endlessly large.
It is, it is definitely something that you can fall prey to intense fandom for,
like us, you could definitely do that.
Alison: I think though that this has been a really important discussion
for us to have of, reminding ourselves and hopefully any listeners, that
not every fanatical group is a cult.
Matt: Yeah.
Yes.
Alison: So we learned something through doing this that we, you know,
can be kinder and gentler with our words and our labeling of things.
Cuz I think anytime it's something that you don't understand, it's
just like people saying like, oh, Alison is all about manifestation
and spiritual shit now, she's woowoo.
Well, not really like, but you don't understand it.
And so instead of taking the time to get to know what's actually going
on and making assumptions about what I do and don't believe, you know,
you're just gonna label it as Alison's being fanatical about something.
Not you by the way.
And certainly not any listeners, but people in my life.
Matt: Right?
Alison: Continue to do that.
Matt: I'm sorry.
Alison: To, clarify, I'm using you very broadly here.
Matt: But yeah, I, I think it is the broadness, it, it does have
to do with the, extent that it has permeated culture, right?
So we know that meditation and yoga, it is proven scientifically that those things
are good for human beings like, Was there a time where no one would have done that
in the United States of America, and they would've called it woo woo, and it
would've made more people uncomfortable.
I am sure.
Sure.
But now it's just too broad.
Christianity's way too broad to be a cult.
And it was very important for me when I lost Christopher, to come to that in my
twenties, that cult is not a bad word, it's not inherently bad, it is just, uh,
you know, it just has some parameters attached that, sure could be dangerous in
the hands of any charismatic leader, but.
Alison: Mm-hmm.
Matt: Let's focus on the good things and the good outcomes.
And if, you find yourself in a group, let's say you are someone who
has not played Dungeons & Dragons.
Maybe you are listening to this podcast.
Maybe you're like, God, I really want to try it.
And then you, you find a group and it feels weird and you don't like it.
You don't like them, and they're saying things you don't like and they
don't have any X cards for safety.
And you, you just genuinely feel it's creep town.
You've entered creep town.
You can get out, you come play with us.
And we're not creepy.
I don't think.
I don't think I'm creepy.
I mean, I, I can be creepy sometimes, but not, not like that.
Alison: You?
Never.
There are ghosts next door, Alison
Matt: There's a ghost next door, Alison.
Alison: I think this is a really good time to remind everybody though
that like anything else, you should take things for a spin before...
In dating, in friendship, and find, you know, one of my friends was, uh, going
to therapy for the first time in their and I had to tell them it is okay if you
do not click with your first therapist.
It is okay if you do not click with your first three therapists, like
give it a session or two cuz you know, the whole getting to know
you thing can be awkward, but you should click with who you're working
with on that personal level, level.
Same thing with your D&D group.
So if it's not clicking, there are other offerings out there and it
is okay to test drive hairstylists, therapists, cars, D&D, you know,
Matt: Yeah.
Alison: We tend to Look at every move we make as potentially permanent and
like with very few exceptions, like for, I don't know, having kids or dying.
Most decisions that we make day to day.
Not permanent.
So you can get a new job,
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Alison: You know, A new lawn guy, a new cult.
Matt: Yeah, Anytime you want.
You have our permission.
Your cult leaders give you permission.
Alison: Brought it right back around, didn't we?
Matt: We sure did.
Alison: We rolled high on the charisma.
Matt: Yeah.
Alison: Yeah.
Matt: We did.
We did.
We're pretty glad.
Alison, thank you for being on, on my podcast.
Alison: Whoa,
Matt: Creepy.
Thank you for listening and being a part of our ADHd20 and larger
Bivins Brothers Creative community.
If you're looking for more, we have a hoppin' Discord that
a couple of us affectionately call the Honeycomb Kill Room.
Look for the join link in the show notes.
Alison: We talk about all kinds of things, TTRPGs and ADHD for sure,
but also TV, comics, video games, movies, theater, our pets, and
really anything else on our minds.
Come be nerds with us and all our friends.
Matt: We also have a Patreon
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By supporting our Patreon, you are helping more Bivins Brothers Originals like this
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Matt: The best way you can help us though, is just to share this cast
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Alison: Thank you for being a pal, to us as people, to ADHd20 the Podcast,
and to the Greater Bivins Brothers Creative Commonwealth of Nerds.