Matt: I wanted to wait until we hit record
AK: Uhoh.
Matt: To say that you've picked a hum dinger of a topic today.
AK: Hum dinger.
Matt: This is a, what did the kids say?
Bopper.
No, that can't be
AK: It's a bop,
Matt: Yeah.
AK: It's, it's bussing.
No cap
Matt: No caps.
The capacity is incredible.
The capacity for interesting conversation is endless.
Oh, man.
I, I was not aware of what this was until you brought it up.
Um, but we will get to that in a minute.
Let me, let me just start off by saying that Alison Kendrick.
AK: Oh.
Matt: Has a magic power.
AK: Oh.
Matt: And that magic power is, coming up with engaging things to talk about.
And that includes coming up with titles of things.
You're, you're a good theme-er, you're a really good theme captain.
AK: Oh.
Matt: I don't know what that means.
AK: I
Matt: I like it though.
AK: I like it.
I'll be, I'll be the Theme Captain any day.
Matt: Be be my theme captain.
AK: You know, thing that I am, uh, supremely proud of us we embark on
season two, episode 12 of ADHd20, the podcast that tries to find
the intersection between ADHD
Matt: and TTRPGs.
AK: Yes.
That.
Matt: There we go.
AK: Is what a marvelous job the both of us have done.
I think like finding and playing to our strengths.
Matt: Mm.
Better and better every time.
Yeah.
Better and better.
AK: It is fun for me to come up with topics.
It is fun for me to come up with titles.
It is no fun for me to make us look or sound good or find the exact
cross section of technology to bring this sweet little podcast into the,
into the eyeballs and ear holes.
Oh, that went weird places of
Matt: Ear hole.
AK: of the ADHd20 Faithful.
Um, and that's where you do an exceptional job.
And I'm so grateful to you
Matt: I just like it.
AK: But you're so good at it too.
So I'm glad that it sits where you want to sit.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
AK: And that's,
Matt: Very much.
AK: That does kind of lead us into what today's topic will be all about.
But!
We're not gonna reveal it yet.
Cause we have a couple, we've got a couple spots to do.
First of which, Matt, what did you hyper fixate on in the past week or so?
Matt: Oh gosh, I didn't do my homework.
Do you wanna go first while I think
AK: Um, I, have been delving into the beautiful, wonderful
world of, um, Adobe Illustrator.
So I'm a Photoshop girly.
I, I have been having fun in Photoshop doing what I call a
digital decoupage for years now.
I'm not telling you I'm good at it either, but I, I somewhat understand
what I'm doing in that program.
Matt: Yeah.
AK: Illustrator is
Matt: Totes diff
AK: Uh, it is.
Yeah.
I, I, and it's funny cuz Evan will help me from time to time and, and he will have
to kind of correct me and be like, I see why you're doing that cuz that is what you
would do in Photoshop, but don't do that.
Um, and so for a really long time, because it was new, I just ignored Illustrator,
I just pretended it didn't exist.
But I have been designing a logo, not taking the easy way out and
leaping into Canva, doing it for real.
And yesterday I, three hours went by and I, in my head I had been
working for maybe five minutes.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
AK: I think that's a hyperfixation, isn't it?
Time blindness is not the thing that I usually suffer from, but I
have been lately, every time I've been opening up ye olde Illustrator,
Matt: Well, that's fun.
At least it's, it's moving you forward to something that's helpful
for all of us, so that's good.
yes.
AK: thought of another mini one.
ChatGPT, been very hyper fixated on what can do for us lately
Matt: Yeah.
All then I'll, I'll give you two that that are similarly, matched.
Uh, number one, I did a lot of work on our friend Amy Cox's, um, company's
website, Deep South Entertainment.
I'm not the designer of this team, so, I, and I don't want to be, I'm
not trying to be hard on myself.
I, I don't need to be, because we have an incredible designer
and a junior designer as well.
But I, to make it fun for me, I had to go
AK: Uh oh,
Matt: Out of my mind nuts on writing copy for fake copy for this website,
which should see the light of day.
Yeah.
Uh, I also went down a, an AI based experience where I combined two images of
Elton John and a Porta John
AK: And the and results!
Matt: That was, that was part of it, part of the job.
The results were fantastic,
AK: Magical.
Matt: Creepily fantastic.
Oh yes.
AK: Why don't we roll some d100s?
Today's dice.
Gosh, I love this.
These are dice that were given to me by our, the other Matt in
my life, our good friend Matt Williams, that you've heard about.
I I love the video format that we, I now get to show off my dice.
Matt: I'm, I'm using my little gorgeous wooden dice that I bought at, um,
AK: Those are so cool.
Matt: D and D Dice here in Chicago, Illinois.
I Good people.
Good dice.
Great dice.
Uh, 57 for me.
What did you roll again?
Sorry.
AK: I hadn't said it yet.
Matt: Oh, okay.
AK: Uh, I rolled a 30
Okay.
This is a good one.
Matt: good.
AK: What D&D class have you not played, but want to try?
Matt: Barbarian.
AK: Oh,
Matt: I've never played a barbarian.
AK: Well, Matt, you are going to be playing in a one shot that I will be
DMing in July, with our beautiful patrons.
I would like to openly invite you to bring a barbarian to that melee.
Matt: Well, perhaps I will.
Wink, wink.
Nod.
Alison.
AK: That's me!
Matt: Money and experience suddenly don't matter.
What is your profession now?
AK: Mm.
I'm gonna say something really corny.
Matt: Go.
AK: I think this might be it.
Matt: Wow.
Wow.
AK: I like, talking into a mic is really fun.
So if this could be my full-time gig and money didn't
matter, that'd be pretty cool.
Matt: I think I'm right there with
AK: ya.
Let's do it.
Matt: You.
I think I'm right there with you.
Yeah.
Let's you know, we don't need those things.
AK: Yeah.
Matt: We don't need those.
We're still doing it, which is one of the wonderful things about it, but,
AK: Yeah.
Matt: There is no but, that's it.
AK: That's
Matt: So thanks everybody for listening cuz you are, you
are willing us into existence.
AK: making our dreams come true.
Matt: I mean, we obviously, I mean, we would still do it without you, but
AK: It's
Matt: You're, it's way more fun with you.
AK: Mm-hmm.
Matt: Love it.
AK: I do.
All right.
Well that, was fun.
Matt: Yeah.
AK: I feel like we need some like ringing bells to unveil today's topic.
So this is one, this is a tenet is the word that we typically use, symptom, side
effect, of ADHD that caught my attention back when I first got my diagnosis.
Definitely since we've been doing this podcast, um, that I've been very curious
about, like what it means and how I apply it, but I didn't know much about
it and then I started reading about it.
And the reason, the reason that I brought this up as today's topic is because on
Sunday, in lieu of our regular Barovia game, we were lucky enough to have our
good friend Tey insert sound effect,
Matt: What?
AK: Hey.
Matt: We got it under control now it's under control.
And a two and a three, and a four and a.
There
AK: We know what to expect now, and you know how to stop it.
So
Matt: Thank God.
AK: Preparation is key.
Preparation is key.
So anyways, our good friend Tey loves you know, kind of taking us by the
hand and leading us through new and different gaming systems, which of
course we love because if it were not for the people like Tey, I would
do the same thing day in a day out.
So I feel like you, I need those people in my life to like, push me and say
let's go, let's try this new thing.
So he said, there is a game I want to play with you.
It's a game built, is it Powered by the Apocalypse?
Is that the, the gaming
Matt: Yes.
That is the core.
Yeah.
yeah.
AK: It's called Masks.
And in Masks, you take on one of, I think there's eight or ten
kind of stereotypical superhero
Matt: Archetypes.
AK: Archetype personas.
Um, and you, in the most beautiful, angsty, teenage fashion, save Halcyon City
Matt: Mm-hmm.
AK: from certain doom, and other stereotypical superheroes.
Matt: Yes.
Like, like lunch ladies and crushes and why did I start with lunch ladies?
AK: I
Matt: Yeah.
Anyway, well, you know, crushes and, and bullies and, and teen it zits
and you know, teenage stuff too.
Yeah.
AK: People trying to take your lunch money before you get to the lunch lady
Matt: There we go.
That, there we go.
The lunch lady's trying to take your lunch money before you get to the lunch ladies.
AK: Exactly, boy, we're really making people wanna play this game.
Matt: Yeah.
Anyway, yeah.
AK: We played this superhero game called Masks.
We're hoping the first of many sessions.
And so we wanted to talk about our experience with that,
of course, on this episode.
But then I said, but wait, behind the mask is the secret identity and how does
that play into ADHD and being neurospicy and it plays in so well because, to
like I mentioned, we did, you know, the quickest amount of research on this and
basically to sum it up, masking is when somebody who is neurodivergent, whether
or not they're aware, the actions that they take to try to, and I'm gonna
air quote this, appear more normal.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
AK: You and I are two people that have been diagnosed as adults.
that we have shared a lot.
Um, But I think, correct me if I'm wrong, we were both aware long before
either of us were diagnosed that there was something spicy about us
and our sweet little brains, right?
Matt: Mm.
In that we spent an inordinate amount of energy masking,
masking the hell out of our lives
AK: Mm-hmm.
Matt: 100%.
AK: So as to appear normal.
Mm-hmm.
I know, like I have always thrived in the chaos.
I have always been a fairly messy and, and disorganized person.
And I remember the horror in high school of my locker and, and like
it was one of those lockers that you open and just like exploded.
And I remember, I remember being embarrassed knowing that that wasn't
normal, knowing that like you're, you know, especially all the little girls
in Alabama in the nineties, you know, they had all of their like beautiful
floral, you know, matchy matchy.
And I just, I didn't have those things and I didn't >really>< have
much interest in those things.
But I will never forget, I was in 10th grade and some older girls that were
popular and that I admired were sitting in our, our common area was called the Mall.
They were sitting in the mall next to my locker.
And, um, I, you know, had to like, you know, hi, can I, you know, nerdy
little Alison needed to get through and get her chemistry book or whatever.
And I remember opening my locker and the explosion happening and one of the girls
saying to me, I thought you were neat.
Like, that surprises me that your locker looks like that cuz you seem like the
kind of person who would be more neat.
And I remember like the shame that I felt, um, in that moment and, and, and,
and being acutely aware of the fact that like, I should hide my messiness.
I should hide my chaos from the world and basically spent the rest of high
school and college doing exactly that.
Matt: You had to make an RSD check and you failed.
AK: I failed.
Big time.
Yeah.
Matt: Yes.
AK: Um, I've also learned in the research, and this is something that that has been
brought up by some of our friends, in our ADHd20 community since starting this.
Some of these things just are more prevalent in women than men.
Apparently masking is a big one of those things because, you know, there's
the expectation of women we're gonna be kind of the planners and the ones
you know, that are a little bit more with it and together not to be sexist.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
AK: One of the big reasons that women often are either not diagnosed or are
diagnosed later in life is because they, I'm not saying that they do a better
job of masking, but they are more apt to mask, to try and cover those symptoms
Matt: and willing, yeah, more willing, more patient about it.
According to Russell Barkley who coined this term masking, he also
calls it impression management.
Impression management.
It happens in one third of people with ADHD, but I will immediately say that I
believe that that number is far higher.
AK: Mm-hmm.
Matt: I think to your point, there's probably a ton of women, especially
who just, I mean, generally women have a higher tolerance to pain, and and
acceptance of, of social injustices.
And, and, uh, yeah.
Yeah, that's what I, that's my vote.
That's my vote, is that there's a whole lot more masking going on, but yes.
AK: Well, and I found that, so I, um, you had turned me on to, ADDitude, A-D-D-itude
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
AK: I found this one, this quote really kind of stuck out to me cuz
I was like, oh, I feel called out, "...From constructing highly structured
environments to obsessively avoiding specific situations and people."
So like, the part that made me feel called out was the obsessively
avoiding specific situations.
I think that I don't think that I am a control freak.
This is not, these are not words.
I'm not type A.
But I realized other, a, a lot of people in my life have called me a control
freak and would happily label me that.
I realized in reading that, that I have specifically avoided or specifically
taken control in an effort to avoid situations that make me uncomfortable.
And that my mask, therefore, is one who wants to be in charge.
The leader or the bossy pants control freak.
Um, which is interesting.
Matt: I've got a bunch of examples
here I would like to share.
Um,
AK: I, we did our research.
We came with our little notes.
We were little
Matt: yeah.
Oh yeah.
AK: gophers in name of science.
Matt: Uh, yeah.
Here's some really good ones here.
I'll try to pick out the ones that, that have always applied to me.
AK: Okay.
Matt: Obsessively checking belongings to make sure you don't lose things.
Bing, bing, bing, bing.
1000%.
AK: God, yes.
Matt: Yeah.
Uh, let's see.
Seeming fine, acting, quote unquote fine when you're struggling to stay afloat.
In my case, saying that I'm fine.
In my case, going on stage and acting
AK: fine.
Matt: Uh, going out and, and talking to people after a show or something.
Uh, let's see.
Arriving way too early.
Yes.
To ensure that you're not late to an appointment due to time blindness.
Uh, here's a good one.
Excessively writing things down so you don't forget things later.
Bing bing bing bing!
Uh, obsess
AK: Oh, no.
Matt: This one, this one.
Really, I, I actually had to take a breath after this one.
Obsessively organizing paperwork and systems.
AK: Oh,
Matt: Oh God.
Oh my God.
AK: It's you!
Matt: If people only knew, if people only knew, and I tried to talk about
it, and that's not, that's just the tip of the iceberg, uh, bottling intense
emotions until you're sick inside Yeah.
And that's, that's a terrible one.
Calling in sick to avoid being put in stressful or anxiety inducing
situations, which I have done a lot.
AK: Ooh.
Matt: Uh, not necessarily work, but just like social engagements.
I do that unfortunately.
Anybody who's listening this, that's my friend.
I'm sorry.
I've probably done it to you and I apologize, uh, but
you know, now I know why.
Let's see.
Being irritable when you force yourself to concentrate on
things that don't interest you.
AK: Ouch ouch!
Matt: Uh oh.
Uh
AK: Called
Matt: Uh, Developing perfectionistic tendencies.
Ooh,
AK: Yeah.
If it's not perfect, I want nothing to do with it.
And that's so gross cuz I don't, I don't hold anybody else to that standard.
Matt: Yes, yes, yes.
I
AK: Ridiculous.
Matt: We about it all the time.
Overdoing things until exhaustion sets in so that others can see how capable
you are even when you're struggling.
Uh, and here's another one.
Here's
Mimicking or copying other people in social situations.
AK: That is a big one that I at least was aware of.
Again, out of that desire to make other people feel more comfortable.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
AK: And again, it all goes back to that in order to hide this aspect of yourself
that you have not grown comfortable with.
Matt: So we're talking, we're literally talking about secret identities.
We're literally talking about this and it, this just blew my mind
AK: Mm-hmm.
Matt: Because the impact of doing this your entire life is, I mean for those
of us that realize it, get help, get diagnosed and try to understand, try to
forgive, go to therapy, whatever you need.
Uh, okay.
It's still difficult.
It could be full on dangerous.
Right.
Um, certainly masking can lead to depression, anxiety, as it did me.
Uh, you learn, you, you've just become exhausted from trying to fit in.
You just, you and, and you just constantly think that you are a failure or whatever.
Uh, people don't believe that you have ADHD when you really, really, really do.
Um, my mom, not, not throwing her under the bus, but when I first told her, I've,
I've mentioned this, when I first told her and she said, no, you have great grades.
AK: Those great grades were the result, the consequence of you masking
because I'm betting those great grades didn't come easily for you, and you
had to bend over backwards and twist yourself into ways that were really
unnatural for your brain and body to be in order to have those grades.
Matt: Yeah.
AK: Which is exactly the point you were trying to make in sharing with her.
That's the thing.
Yeah.
I'm so proud of, you know, we'll say Gen X down embracing this, but Boomer
Generations, Greatest Generation, like y'all need therapy and like
you're dragging the rest of us down.
Um, it, I mentioned this now, several episodes in a row, but,
you know, the, the, my family vacation that didn't go well.
A lot of that is my dad's refusal to accept his neuro spiciness.
Matt: Right.
AK: Um, Yeah, and so it's interesting that you bring up, so one of the other
things from the article that I pulled up from ADDitude that stood out to me
was the consequence of ADHD masking.
It says, ADHD masking, as we know, may delay or sabotage diagnosis,
especially in girls or women.
Internalized conditions including anxiety or depression, might develop
as a consequence of undiagnosed, untreated and hidden ADHD.
It also interferes with a person's ability to accept the brain they have.
This go, comes right back to what we were talking about earlier, take pride in
their strengths and do more of what works.
So what if you and I spent our time producing this podcast that
we love, jamming ourselves into the roles that we did not belong in?
What if, you know, I said no.
It is so important for Matt to see me an excellent video
editor, as as a sound engineer
Matt: I, I, yes.
I see.
I I see what you're saying.
Yeah, exactly.
And, this is one of those that, that is, is a major breakthrough for me
because, these things, these impacts for masking, there have been times
where, uh, it feels like a burden.
ADHD feels like a heavy, heavy burden.
This is so good to learn about because I think this is actually truly the
way out of those kinds of feelings.
Not okay.
Uh, you know, I'm not, I'm not diminishing ADHD by saying it's not a burden,
but I'm also saying this is the way that you can try to turn that frown
upside down in your darkest moments.
You're not going to, you're not going to get rid of the symptoms.
We cannot change the brains.
But this awareness of, uh, uh, that was masking, I'm, I'm masking.
I am playing a role.
I'm playing a part right now, and it's only making, it's only going
to make me upset later when I realize, or people around me, right?
Like I, you know, whatever it is, replacing outward stress,
which everyone should deal with better, with inward stress.
Let's not, let's try not to do that.
But those things, you can focus on, those things you can try to
replace with better habits and stuff.
So this is, this is good.
This is good.
AK: So ready for me to, now I'm gonna reveal my, like, glass shatter
brain break moment in all of this.
And also connect the dots between the TTRPG that we played how I used it
to, to, to reach this realization.
So, uh, so Tey fed us all of the source material for this wonderful game, Masks.
Matt and the other, Matt and Evan, and Fitz and I all chose
our they're called playbooks.
Our, um, our archetypes
Matt: Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
AK: And you kind of have a choice in your playbook of is your
identity going to be secret or not?
And so we were pretty split down the middle.
A couple chose secret identity.
A couple of us chose no, kind of out and proud with my, my superhero.
I thought the most interesting one in the game that we played was the,
the character choice that Fitz made.
Um, she hides her identity of her, of her super, hero, uh, who is, uh,
Critter Captain, which I just love.
Uh, and then her real, the girl behind Critter Captain, uh, is named Reggie.
Reggie is the real part.
The masking is not the superhero.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
AK: The masking is not Superman.
The masking is Clark Kent.
And so it's so remarkable to me that we're hiding some of the best parts
of ourselves because of our perception of others', perceptions of us.
Um, and it seems backwards.
You think, you think of superheroes as putting on a mask, right?
That like in order for like Clark Kent to go find a telephone booth
and, you know, whirl into Superman mode, that's him donning his mask.
But his biggest mask is him trying to fit in.
And why would you wanna fit in with the normies?
Matt: Right, right.
AK: Why, you know, like, Stand out, you know, and
Matt: I thought Fitz did a really, really beautiful job in game of, of playing to
both sides of playing Critter Captain and Reggie, and forging relationships
and alliances on both sides of that mask, but, but Alison with the Meta Knowledge,
Mm-hmm.
AK: versus Alison's character, um, I don't know.
It was just, it was kind of surreal because I had this like
aha moment, I guess is what I'm trying to say of like, Masking is
backwards from what you think it is.
It's not you, you know, trying to make other people feel like you're
cooler or have some superpower.
It's you hiding the real you, the thing that makes you special and unique.
You know, and that's, that's why we have these conversations, I guess,
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm
AK: to convince people to, I mean, you can be both sides.
You can be multifaceted as a person.
You can have special abilities and be entirely mundane, and that's okay.
Matt: Uh, uh, well, gosh.
Yeah, it's, hmm.
That's amazing.
Uh, all right, let's, let's talk about some of the other characters too, because
there's, there's some stuff in there.
So your character, is basically out loud and proud, uh, as a super creature, right?
She has an immense power, and does have like a cool hero name, which is French.
I don't even remember it.
AK: La Douleur Exquise!
Because we were playing angsty teenagers, I created this character.
Her name is, uh, Ciel Lavoie.
Her parents are all, are also superheroes.
She is very privileged and knows it.
Um, and she kind of, the mask that she wears, and I did this very intentionally,
is she tries so hard to be cool.
So everything she's doing is, she's only doing so other people will
look at her and go, wow, she's cool.
So she chooses this completely, "The Exquisite Pain", like this
stupid, stupid superhero name cuz she thinks it sounds cool.
She thinks it sounds punk.
Matt: Exactly.
That's what I was gonna say is like, I, uh, you know, your, your superhero was
out, uh, in the open but then, but then Ciel still masks is still masking things.
Uh, And then my character actually had sort of a, an
affliction, like a curse sorts.
And, only wants to be normal, because she transforms into
something that is horrific.
AK: Mm-hmm.
Matt: This wraith, this,
AK: Mm-hmm.
Matt: um, I mean powerful and, you know, strong but scary.
AK: Mm-hmm.
Matt: Just scary.
And she does not like that.
she, she also wears all these bright colors to try to get
attention maybe to bring attention to the human parts of her, right.
When, why, when she's human, that she can, she can kind of feel
normal and that's all she wants.
it's a great game because it is not about, uh, so Lindsay and I, we describe
everything that's either combat or star fighting or anything is pew, pew, pew.
So this is not a pew, pew, pew game, right?
Like this is, there's no, there's no hit points.
AK: Mm-hmm.
Matt: You, you can be in a fight with a super villain, but, uh, the roll of
the dice kind of dictates whether or not you or the super villain become
angry or ashamed, or afraid based on the hits that you make, which is amazing.
And, uh, instead of, instead of attributes like wisdom, charisma, strength,
intelligence, you've got things like, how dangerous do you feel right now?
What's your, what's your danger level?
What's your superiority level?
What's your
AK: Freak.
Matt: What's your freak?
And then what's your, what's your
AK: Get your on!
Matt: And that's so fun because it starts off, as, you know, it really speaks
to teenagerness and, and the levels of, of, of, of heightened emotion and
experience that you have every day.
But, but just the, the knowing that those things are just constantly shifting
and I just wanna feel normal or I just wanna be different, you know, like,
and, and I remember, I, I remember in high school I would just vacillate, I
talk all the time about what I, what a proto hipster I was, and that I hated
everything that was popular and cool.
And yet at the same time, no one liked me in part because of that.
And so I would be like, I don't have any friends.
I can't have a both, I can't have a both ways, but I would
go bong bong B, trying to who?
AK: Yeah.
Matt: Well, it was just a bunch of masking is what it really was.
AK: It's, it is interesting.
I never had thought about this before, but I was, I was not a hipster.
I've never been a hipster.
Um, but I was trying very hard to play to two very, like, disparate sides, right?
So, on one hand I had embraced my, my geekiness.
I, I knew that I was weird from the jump.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
AK: I knew from day one of kindergarten that I was not like
the kids I was going to school with.
I knew I was a nerd.
I knew I was a freak.
I, you know, I've loved music and theater and all these
things from a very young age.
So I was in all of the choirs.
I was in all of the theater productions.
I was in all of the bands.
Matt: Yeah.
You leaned into it,
AK: I was also in a sorority and like, cared very much what
the general populace of Mountain Brook High School thought of me.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Sports
AK: Yes, and, and, and
Matt: Church.
AK: In some weird way managed to.
I don't even know how I did this, but I managed to be successful on both sides.
Um, it, I, I was in band, I was a band geek.
I mean, there's no two ways around this, but I was also in the most
popular sorority and though that's what I wanted, right?
I wanted to be in the band and I wanted to be popular.
I was constantly feeling tugged, so I wasn't happy.
Matt: Yeah.
AK: I had my real friends, you know, basically saying like, what are you
putting on these airs for, you know, and then I had the popular kids doing what
popular kids do, peer pressuring and, you know, trying to help make me cooler
Matt: Yeah.
AK: than I was
Matt: Let's, let's talk about that actually, because that is, that is
an endless amount of fascination for me as someone who was born in
the early seventies, uh, my, my high school experience was identical to
Freaks and Geeks, the show where there were very very clear lines,
AK: Mm-hmm.
Matt: wide lines between the nerds, the jocks, the cool people, the
unpopular, the freaks, the blank.
really, it's difficult for me to watch that show even, though I love
it because it is so real to me.
And then I, it seems to me that 10 years later, you and Lindsay, my
wife, who is profoundly deaf, and you would think, I mean, how many movies
have you seen where the disabled kid gets made fun of all the time?
I'm not saying that she wasn't made fun of necessarily.
Yeah.
She didn't go through these things the way that I did.
And, and so, you know, for, for a while I thought, well, okay, because she's
a mid westerner, let's say, but no.
Because you, you didn't have as much trauma in high school.
AK: Oh, I had trauma, but from something completely different.
Matt: Okay.
AK: My trauma was not from my geekiness.
Because I was loud about it.
From an early age was kind of like, this is how I am.
You're gonna take it or leave it.
But I had an immense amount of trauma because of my weight,
because teenage boys are assholes.
Matt: Okay.
AK: So, so
Yeah.
They are,
I think that, no, and it's totally fine.
I think that shaped, I mean, and this is a whole other can of worms to open,
I think that shaped my personality.
You've got, a woman, a girl, a female with ADHD who is overweight in the
south where we are, looks obsessed,
So I have all of those factors working against each other.
And what I have noticed about girls who had weight issues from a young age, we,
we go one of two ways and they're extreme.
They're never middle grounds.
You were either wallflower,
Matt: Mm-hmm.
AK: Shy, do not speak, or you are, guess which one I turned out to be you guys?
Matt: I dunno.
I think you're right though.
And I, I'm not allowed to speak on that in any way, shape or form, but
AK: yeah.
Matt: From just experience of knowing people, it seems to be
that, that makes a lot of sense.
AK: Yeah.
Matt: Uh, okay.
AK: But, I think that, you know, so we're talking about my neurodiversity and your
neurodiversity and, you know, now high school archetypes and things like that.
But I think, I think both of those parts of my personality, the, the overweight and
the ADHD fueled my mask because it just sent me on this quest to prove something
Matt: Mm-hmm.
AK: Which not good, but, you know, but to, desperate to fit in because
I didn't, I didn't look like what people wanted me to, and I didn't
act like what people wanted me to.
So I was in a state of constant overdrive
Matt: Yeah.
AK: To control what I could control, I guess.
Matt: And you say that you had some success though, and that's what
I'm, that's what I'm getting at is, is what happened in those 10
years because I did the same things.
what happened in those years where I get beat up
AK: Yeah,
Matt: and you, no matter how hard I'm trying, and you you can, you can rise
above, Lindsay can rise above and
AK: I have a hypothesis there.
Matt: okay, please.
AK: I think, first of all, I've long thought this, that you
were born in the wrong era.
I am very curious what Matthew Bivins been like if he too had have
been born somewhere in the early to late eighties, for example.
Matt: Yeah, me too.
Me too.
AK: You are a thousand percent a Gen Xer.
I'm not trying to pull you in it, but I, I do wonder what, what
that would've been like for you.
But I think something happened between, I think it started in the seventies and
I think we started to really deconstruct it as children of the eighties.
And then children of the nineties, two thousands and beyond are
like full on bashing it down.
Is this concept of a binary that there is you know, there's
are as black or it is white.
I think that the further into the 21st century, we have gotten, and I have
this, opinion because of my work with teens, uh, over the past couple of
decades as a sorority advisor for, uh, college and as a youth advisor for,
uh, middle school and high schoolers.
They just don't see the world the same way.
Matt: Yeah.
Right.
AK: And I think that, that there was like, you were just like the tiniest glimmer
back in the seventies with that of like, hey, there's, you know, nothing is binary.
Nothing is one thing or another.
Everything is a spectrum.
Yeah.
Matt: That's what I, that's used to say everyday at recess.
Yeah.
Everything is spectrum.
No, but seriously, I did feel that.
I was always confused by that.
Yeah.
Continue, please.
Right?
AK: It's funny, my, uh, my best friend's oldest daughter, uh, when
she was little, she used to say, but I just have a sparkly brain.
I think just more accepted, you know, for, for people to have sparkly brains now.
And the problem is, is that you had a sparkly brain when you were coming
of age, and I had a sparkly brain.
I think I do, I think that that's what happened between when you came of age
when Lindsay and I came of age, and then now whatever the hell's going on
now we're just like, we are who we are.
And we can be that way as early as we want to be that way.
And we hundred different things at once and nothing has to be constrained.
Matt: Yeah.
AK: I don't
Matt: Well, uh, well, I love it.
That's, that's a great theory.
And I especially love the part where it is, it continues to get better
I see it too.
I see it too,
AK: The kids are all right,
Matt: Mm-hmm.
, I think the kids are really alright.
When I talk to our friend Nathan about this.
Because he has a son and he's so in love with his son.
He's so proud of him and so amazed at how much healing had, has happened
, how much, how much Gabe is, is able to Gabe's whole generation, not just
Gabe, but his friends and everybody.
He's always just, Nate's just glowing about these kids.
And, and, but we do talk about like, damn man, we did have that sparkly
brain and we were out of time.
AK: And then somehow from the ashes, we've got Gen Z flying in on their unicorns
and Falcore dragon from The Neverending Story cuz they're into retro things now
Matt: Yes.
AK: And saving the fricking day by presenting a spectrum
in literally all that they do.
It, it's a whole new generation of superheroes
Matt: Uh, yeah, it is, it is.
I'm living through y'all.
I am living through y'all.
And, and instead of being jealous, okay, I'm a little bit envious.
I'm a little envious, but Okay, so let's, one, one more thing I'll say
is that a side effect of masking can mean that you are developing,
systems and skills that help you
AK: Mm-hmm.
Matt: In life.
You know, I am early now to the airport.
That is actually a good thing.
That's a pretty, that's a pretty good thing.
Uh, and, and I, the only problem is that I now have to dismantle the anxiety
and depression, um, the comorbidities,
AK: Yes.
Matt: uh, from those actions late, late, late in life.
But it is kind of, it's cool that I've developed them, a lot of them.
Uh, but yeah, j just to be able to be able to have that clean slate and.
And have the doctors, and have the moms and have the dads around you to be able
to say, okay, you don't have to mask.
AK: I love how all of this just kind of weaves this web of
Matt: Me too
AK: Thought strands us pull at, grabbing at 'em.
Matt: I, you know what?
This, even if there's nobody listening to this right now,
this is still a great podcast.
Because it's so much to learn, so much to learn
AK: Mm-hmm.
We we, we got people listening though.
We got some of the best people listening.
I'll
Matt: We do.
Thank you.
Thank y'all for doing so.
AK: Well, Matt, thanks
Matt: Well, Alison,
AK: Coming on my podcast.
Matt: Thank you for being on my podcast.
AK: I, I love our journey there that we went from me th profusely thanking
you for having me on your podcast.
Every episode.
to me, having the gumption to say, thanks for being on my podcast,
To the freaks and the geeks
Matt: Until next
week, Oh shit.
AK: Um, all right, well, glad, glad that we have another banger out there.
Matt: Banging.
Yeah, that was actually the word I was looking for.
Banger I, what did I say?
Bopper.
AK: Okay, boomer.
Matt: Okay.
Boomer.
Thank you for listening and being a part of our ADHd20 family.
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Look for the link in our show notes and come join the chatter about all things
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Alison: Thank you for being a pal!
To us as people, to ADHd20 the podcast, and to the greater Bivins Brothers
Creative Commonwealth of Nerds.