VictoriaM: Welcome to a special bonus episode of The Chemical Show.
I'm Victoria Meyer, your host.
And I recently had the opportunity to engage in a series of really enlightening
discussions at the Marsh North American Energy and Power Symposium.
Today, I'm excited to share a standout conversation with Mike
Kolodner, who is the U S Energy and Power Leader at Marsh, as well as
the Global Renewable Energy Leader.
We dive into the complexities of the energy transition and the pivotal
role that the chemical industry plays in this transformative period.
In fact, one of the things that really stood out about our conversation is
this realization that as the chemical industry, we We are some of the
biggest consumers of electricity and we need to be making our voice heard.
So I felt this conversation was way too important to be kept under
wraps, which is why I'm bringing it to you as a bonus episode.
Don't forget to check out the show notes.
I'm linking the other episodes and interviews that I had at the symposium,
including Peter Huntsman from Huntsman Corporation, Rob Lee CEO of Dragos,
and of course my compilation of risk insights from the Marsh leaders.
So stay tuned.
I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation.
Welcome to The Chemical Show, the podcast where chemical means business.
I'm your host, Victoria Meyer, bringing you stories and insights
from leaders, driving innovation and growth across the chemical industry.
Each week, we explore key trends, real world challenges, and the
strategies that make an impact.
Let's get started.
VictoriaM: So I am speaking with Mike Kolodner, who is the US
energy and power leader and global renewable energy leader at Marsh.
So you're doing a lot of great things across the company.
I know you're getting ready to lead a session on wildfires, which
we're not talking about today, although it is certainly in the
news as we record this with The, um, fire out in California, Pacific
Palisades and, uh, you know, a lot of
Loss that's taking place.
It's pretty, pretty crazy.
Um, but we're going to be talking a little bit more just about the realities of the
energy transition because I know that's one of the things that you talk about.
So before we get into that though, tell us just a little bit about yourself.
Mike C.:
Yeah, I'm responsible for Marsha's U.
S.
Energy and Power business.
Um, I sit on our Global Energy and Power Executive.
We're a little unique in that our energy and power business
is an actual global business.
Um, and so we're fully coordinated.
And many of our clients are multinational.
Um, so we, you know, that makes a lot of sense for us.
Um, so in that capacity, I oversee kind of our global
renewable energy efforts as well.
Um, which, you know, considering this is a chemical podcast, you
might say that's not that relevant.
Sometimes it's, uh, it's helpful to have that title.
Sometimes it's, um, it can be a burden, but I would say, um, you
know, I'm, I'm generally agnostic.
I was trained as a nuclear engineer, um, I was in the submarine
force for a couple of years.
And, and when I came into risk management, I came in through kind
of the nuclear energy door, if you
will, um, to
be a, uh, an advisor and consultant to the nuclear industry.
So You know, I'm now, I've held a bunch of different roles, uh, joined Marsh in 2006.
I've left twice to go work full time, uh, for clients.
Um, so I've been, uh, you know, I've been
VictoriaM: And they've hired you back.
Mike C.:
Yeah, I would say it's, um,
well It was in the best interest of
VictoriaM: the client
Mike C.:
and my career and, uh, Marsh, I would think, uh, you know, that I
take those roles, but it was good.
I worked for, um, a company called, uh, Exelon Corp, which was, uh,
you know, we acquired a company called Constellation Energy, which
is also in the news today, but,
VictoriaM: uh Oh, I missed that, okay.
I'll have
Mike C.:
they've got, uh, there's, uh, there's a, uh, potential, uh, Merger
that's pretty significant in the energy space that's that's happening.
Anyway,
so I spent five years there.
It was fantastic Came back to Marsh Left again to go essentially be the chief
underwriting officer and head of member relations for an industry mutual insurance
company
VictoriaM: Um,
Mike C.:
So yeah, I mean I've kind of but I've Basically, I'd like to say
I've been at Marsh since 2006.
Um, yeah, and that's, that's what I do.
VictoriaM: what's interesting is a number of the people I've spoken with,
both for the podcast, but just, um, in the conference, uh, these last couple
of days, have a military background.
Really?
Yeah.
Interesting.
Mike C.:
Interesting.
Yeah.
VictoriaM: I
was gonna, is there a connection?
I
Mike C.:
there's
definitely, I mean, I would say it's, uh, within the energy space, broadly
defined, you know, The, the, the military, the navy in particular, it's um, you
know, but really all Branches of military service, they're incredibly technical.
So, you know, engineers tend to do really well, a lot of discipline,
but also I think the energy industry broadly defined has always been a
place that has attracted and gone out of their way to make opportunities
available for transitioning veterans.
So, we do see a high concentration of it.
Um, yeah, I run into folks, I run into folks from, from my Navy community all
VictoriaM: the time.
That's
cool.
That's really cool.
So I know one of the things we were talking about as we were teeing up
for this conversation here was, uh, Peter Huntsman was the keynote speaker
yesterday, um, to kick off the event.
Really great.
And, and he talked a lot about, Energy and just the realities of where we
are from an energy usage perspective, how it ties into climate and, uh,
in carbon emissions, et cetera, but also just the energy transition and
what's really where we really are.
So, can you just talk about that a little bit, from
Mike C.:
no, I, I think he was, well, one, he
VictoriaM: he
Mike C.:
fantastic.
I
think, um, initially, I mean, this is a, this is an energy and power.
VictoriaM: conference.
Mike C.:
So,
for, for the
VictoriaM: chemical, a little bit of
Mike C.:
well, so this thing, so for the layperson, it's like, so, so again,
what, where's chemical fit in this?
And it's, well, no, chemical is energy.
It is, I mean, chemical is energy, right?
So when we think about, What, the words we're using here, I would
just say, there were a lot of folks who were initially kind of like,
all right, so Peter Huntsman's your keynote at an Energy Empowered Well,
I don't understand that a little bit.
Okay.
The second
he got up, but the second he got up and started talking,
VictoriaM: and started talking, you
Mike C.:
500 people now have a full appreciation for why this is so critical to talk about.
And I think the best part about his.
entire conversation was it was grounded in the realities, you know,
Huntsman is a business that does incredibly important things for all
VictoriaM: of
us.
And
Mike C.:
we are making it really difficult
VictoriaM: for
Mike C.:
for him to continue to compete and for his business to be successful
in support of many of the very things that we are claiming to want.
And I was comments around, you know, the, the, the carbon footprint associated with.
building and deploying a wind turbine, for
example.
he is not wrong.
That is reality, right?
So
VictoriaM: Right.
And the, and the number of chemical products that are needed for it.
Um, and then
Mike C.:
And don't even get me started on batteries
and solar panels cause
VictoriaM: going to say, and that, and then the end of life.
aspects of it, which, which shows up, but it's, um, it does, it's not
really showing up from a regulatory perspective as far as I can tell.
From where I sit.
I don't really know.
Uh, you
Mike C.:
it is, but I would say the other one though, and this is the one
that, um, it didn't really occur to me until I was really kind of.
Digesting his comments with, with some folks last night over, over dinner.
But actually, um, one of the things that I learned when I was, when I
was at Exelon was like, I got kind of deep in, um, utility holding
company and utility operations.
And it was fascinating to me.
One of the things I learned, which I did not know going into it, and I found it so
fascinating, was it's not what you and I use or consume from an energy perspective
that really drives the engine of these
VictoriaM: these large
companies, right?
Mike C.:
companies, right?
What drives it
VictoriaM: is our.
Mike C.:
commercial and industrial
VictoriaM: Yes, but the industrial complex, so to
Mike C.:
and like if you look at uh, Lawrence Livermore Labs puts out every year the
sources and uses of energy, you know, where it's generated from, how it's
consumed, um, and it's a fascinating, it's a very simple chart, I
use
it.
like with my kids, it's awesome, yeah, it's very cool.
Um, but when you look at who the consumers are, right, so industry,
whether it's tech or chemical, right?
That's who we create the energy for.
They're the ones who
need it.
So I thought that was fascinating that he really attacked it because we had
later on on a panel We had a couple of risk managers one from Total Energy We
also had one from Next Air Energy, right?
And we also had one from Air
VictoriaM: Promise.
Mike C.:
So you had this
great mix of people.
But I was
listening to the Next Air Energy comments and one of the things that
VictoriaM: things that, uh, that
Mike C.:
That they said was you know We're in this business and I know it may be tough
over here, but we're really doing well.
And I was like, of course you are.
Energy demand is
VictoriaM: high.
Mike C.:
And
you're good at what you do.
So next year is great at what they do.
And yeah, so they're doing great.
That was not the issue.
It made me think of Huntsman,
Not as
an energy company.
No,
no, no.
They're a consumer of energy.
They're the, they're the.
They're the, not, not, I mean, obviously Huntsman's a client
of Marsh's but it's not,
they're
the client.
They're
the customer.
The
customer is telling the energy industry,
These
are the realities of the world I live in.
It's wonderful
that
you guys want to do all this stuff.
And you
could feel it in the room that Mr.
Huntsman was like, I am the customer, I am telling
you, this
is
my
reality.
VictoriaM: Well, and I think, as a global business leader, um, of
which, Peter Huntsman is obviously leading a global business.
There's a lot of global businesses across chemicals.
And one of the real challenges, and that came up yesterday,
is, um, is European policy.
Yes.
European, uh manufacturing and energy policy, which is basically encouraging
companies to shut, stop manufacturing.
And it's, and it's actually, it's a little bit of this not in
Mike C.:
my backyard
VictoriaM: because the
Mike C.:
other piece is,
VictoriaM: and, and I heard this before, I heard this from Peter's
talk, which is around the, um,
Mike C.:
China
continues
VictoriaM: to build coal fired Electricity.
It is the most efficient way for them to get what they want,
Mike C.:
Well, and he did, he did sneak in to, you know, Germany, they, they
turned off the nuclear plants and they
started building renewables and they too are
burning more coal
today than they were before.
So it's
not just China.
It's, it's the unintended outcome
of policy.
Yeah.
My
VictoriaM: father worked for Exelon,
a predecessor ComEd in, uh, in Illinois, right?
So that's where I grew up.
My dad's a, a ComEd guy.
I was a, you know, appreciative of, really appreciative of electricity
growing up, um, and of nuclear power.
And right, so, cause, cause they had nuclear power
up there.
I think,
Mike C.:
Illinois,
Illinois
VictoriaM: still operating,
Mike C.:
it is, It is.
VictoriaM: Great.
Uh, there was a, you know, so fully appreciative of that.
And I think actually when you look at nuclear power today and what's
available, it's super efficient when we're trying to achieve the goals
that we're trying to achieve, we should be encouraging more nuclear.
Um, Rather than discouraging it.
Um,
but,
but I think it is, the transition is a transition, right?
Because when you talk about, he talked about the amount of energy that's
still consumed from wood, right?
So if people are using wood to heat and to cook, well, moving
from wood to coal is efficient.
Moving from coal to gas is an efficiency gain.
Moving from gas to, let's just say, hydroelectric is an efficiency gain,
or at least a, uh, carbon gain, right?
So I think it's
all about transition and relativity.
I
Mike C.:
a defunct
VictoriaM: whaling
town.
Mike C.:
You know, we used to
VictoriaM: burn
that for a living.
Mike C.:
know, whale oil, right?
Like it's a,
VictoriaM: blubber, yeah, was a
Mike C.:
yep.
Oh no, it was huge, yeah.
Um, I, I think the um, You know, it's fast.
It is a transition.
It's also one that doesn't play out over like, you know, one
VictoriaM: administration
cycle,
No,
Mike C.:
definitely doesn't play out.
Yeah,
I mean, exactly as you said, we're still burning wood like we did
a thousand years
ago, right?
And two thousand years ago, whatever.
Um, so there, it's not like there's an end state.
Um, I do think that the thing that is worth talking about though is,
and this, I need to touch on this too, is, you know, if you just look
at, And we make, make this as simple as possible supply and demand.
VictoriaM: reality
Mike C.:
is we're putting constraints on supply and we are driving demand up exponentially
at a rate that we probably haven't seen, um, in multiple generations.
So there isn't really even humans on the planet who have firsthand
experience of seeing the kind of.
Transition, transformation, energy additions that are going to be needed
just to support where we're going.
We've decided, we've let AI out of the box.
It's going to consume an enormous amount of
VictoriaM: energy.
It's a, it is a enormous consumer, right?
Enormous.
Consumer of energy and of water.
Mike C.:
Right.
And his comments around, uh, you know, he used the, he used the,
the He talked a little bit about, you know, we once thought That
we'd run out of food here, right?
And
then we made advance with there, right?
Yeah, so okay So, you know, it's it's a similar
thing I do think
we will solve the problem of how do we some how do we supply this
increasingly exponential demand?
but
I think his
key message, the thing I took away
VictoriaM: is,
Mike C.:
it's not as simple.
We got to stop pretending that you can just build
a
bunch
of
stuff
and
it's all going to be fine.
There are unintended consequences and it's a far more complex ecosystem when we
talk about global energy infrastructure, energy security, um, then I think a lot
of folks are prepared to acknowledge, but anyone who was in that room yesterday.
VictoriaM: room yesterday, well, it was
a wake up call.
Well, and I would say it was a wake up call at the beginning of the day and a
wake up call at the end of the day when we talked about, uh, cyber security.
Mike C.:
Yes, that was a good one
VictoriaM: That was a good one as well.
Um, so.
But when we come back and think about the energy and the energy transition, what's
your role and what's Marsh's role in this?
How are you engaging players across that, that system?
Mike C.:
because it's the simplest answer I can give you, which
is Marsh's role is the same
VictoriaM: the
Mike C.:
as it ever was, right?
Which is supporting our clients in being more successful in
what they want to do, right?
We just happened, like our job is to support them in the risk space, right?
So we're global leaders in the risk and insurance space.
If it falls in that ecosystem and we do our things right and we make Marsh
work for a client, then ultimately our clients are more successful as a result.
They get great advice, great counsel.
They optimize cost of risk.
They do lots of things.
They make the insurance market.
If they buy insurance, some of them don't even buy it.
Some of our clients aren't actually insurance buyers, right?
Um, but.
insurance, risk, that's the ecosystem.
So, you know, I look at the energy transition.
All Marsh is here to do is help our clients thrive through it.
You know, if it is indeed a start and a finish,
VictoriaM: right?
Mike C.:
I imagine I want every single one of my Marsh clients to
be there at the finish line.
And
frankly, to the extent they have competitors who are not Marsh clients,
I'd
rather they
not
be there.
Right.
And then I think, so I, you know, and I think we share
that with
our clients.
Right.
So we just want our clients to be successful.
Um, and we want.
Uh, to create value for them.
Uh, it's less about selling them stuff and more about helping them create value.
And I think this is a really challenging
time fraught with
risk.
So this is a place
where we can be really, really impactful for our clients, and that's what
we wanna do during this transition.
We just wanna be helpful and we wanna
VictoriaM: help them thrive.
Yeah.
I love it.
So, um, if you were advising a chemical executive on, you know, sitting here
today or tomorrow when you go back to your day job, um, What's one thing they
can be doing and should be doing or thinking about here in 2025 as it relates
to energy, energy transition risk, etc.
Mike C.:
Yeah, I, I think,
um, I
mean it's a.
One, I always
say,
it always
depends
on who we're
talking to and what their issues are.
Every single one of our clients presents different issues.
But at a high level, you know, for the chemical industry, I would say
probably one of the most important things that they could be doing,
particularly executives, is exactly what Peter Huntsman did yesterday.
We have to.
to be communicating
across multi, multi, in a multi dimensional fashion.
It is not enough to stay in the chemical industry bubble and
just talk about these things.
What Huntsman did yesterday was tell a bunch of traditional energy,
including
companies
that are
making their living
building solar and wind and creating problems ultimately for him,
VictoriaM: right?
Mike C.:
He said what he said, and he got that word out.
And I think the more, the more that executives, um, in what I'll say is
energy adjacent industries, appreciate the complexity of the situation,
the
better informed we'll be when we tell policy makers what it is we're looking
for, um, you know, a lot of what Marsh does is help build consensus.
Um, so that we
get effective
policy making, I mean it's a huge thing, whether I think it's, you know,
like, uh,
the TRIA legislation
that was passed
after September
11th,
you know, it's a
great
example of where, you know, we help our
clients shape
VictoriaM: with policy,
um,
but,
I
Mike C.:
I think that to me is the
most important one, uh, some of the underwriters who dared to raise their
hand and challenged him yesterday, uh, interestingly enough, one of
them in particular was, you know, was a renewable energy underwriter,
VictoriaM: Yeah Like
we've got
to pierce
Mike C.:
the veil.
We've
got
to
accept
some
hard truths
We can be passionate about our role in the transition, but we've got to
acknowledge the reality of the broader.
And so I just love that
we he pulled people out of their
silos
yesterday.
And I think we've got to do that.
And that's what I would say, you know,
for
executives in the chemical
VictoriaM: space,
They're the
largest
consumers
Mike C.:
of energy.
They're out there
using it.
They got a stake in it.
They need to be part of the
conversation, um,
around.
around what we're using and how.
Um, so
VictoriaM: about.
Yeah.
Love it.
Mike C.:
thank you so much.
VictoriaM: appreciate your
time.
It's been
great.
Thanks for joining us today on The Chemical Show.
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