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Hi, I am Yaiza Gomez and this
is Chattering with iCatCare.

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I hope you started 2026 very, very well
and full of curiosity about cats because

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as you may have heard from February
we'll be offering feline medicine CPD

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in an easier and more digestible format.

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If you want to find out more, follow
us on our social media and take a look

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at our website portal.icatcare.org.

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Today, Kelly St. Denis and Dr Sonya
Gordon will discuss the practical use

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of pimobendan in cats, the topic of
this month's JFMS spotlight article.

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But first, Sarah Ellis will
interview Morgane Van Belle on her

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iCatCare Welfare Research Award.

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Enjoy.

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Morgane, I'm absolutely
delighted to talk to you today.

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I'm just gonna tell our listeners
a little bit about the iCatCare

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Welfare Research Award, because
this is only its second year.

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It's designed to recognize and
celebrate individuals who've

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dedicated a piece of research to
improving domestic cat welfare.

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When we think about cat welfare, we
think about the physical health and

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mental wellbeing of the cat, that
real integrated, holistic view and the

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research may come from any discipline
within animal welfare, including

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behavioural medicine, ethics, and law.

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Our award aims to encourage researchers
from a variety of disciplines

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to conduct cat welfare research
and to disseminate such research

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in ways that make meaningful,
positive differences to cat welfare.

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That's really important for us at
iCatCare because learning new knowledge

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is fantastic, but if we can't put that
knowledge into action to drive change and

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improve welfare for cats, then really it's
not doing the job it was intended for.

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So we're big fans of applied
research at iCatCare.

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The award is given at the European
Veterinary Congress this year, and your

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winning abstract was part of your PhD
research and it was entitled Ethogram

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of domestic cat intraspecific social
behaviour in multicat households.

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A huge congratulations again for
that award and for some of our

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listeners, they might not necessarily
know what the word ethogram means.

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Not all of our veterinary
audience will have that kind of

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behavioural understanding or maybe
wouldn't have used an ethogram.

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So can you give us an overview
of what an ethogram is?

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So an ethogram is actually like a
list of behaviours and definitions

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for a specific like animal.

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So we have ethograms for monkeys or dogs
but also for cats, and it's important

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to have these fixed behaviours or terms
because that way we can describe things

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uniformly across studies or across people.

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So we are like talking about the
same thing by using same words.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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That makes complete sense because
behaviour is quite complex and if we're

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not calling it the same things, then how
do we know we are talking about the same

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thing or we've identified the same thing.

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So that ethogram is like a
description of what a behaviour

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is with some visuals to help?

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Yeah, so for our ethogram, it, it
focuses on social behaviour in cats.

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We identified behaviours that might
be relevant in cat encounters, and we

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also try to not only define them, but
also provide visual illustrations via

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drawings or video clips to show people
how the behaviour actually looks.

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Nice.

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I think the video clips are crucial
because behaviour is not static, isn't it?

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And there's only so much
an illustration can do.

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I love the fact that you are focusing
on multicat households because we are

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seeing that they are extremely popular
across the world, and we hear from our

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behaviourists that inter cat tension, so
problems between cats, are quite common,

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whether that's overt, biting, scratching,
wrestling, or more subtle stuff around

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them blocking access and cats urinating
outside the litter tray, for example.

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So it feels very pertinent.

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I think as humans, we just so often
take for granted in our social

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relationships if somebody walks in
the house after being out for a day,

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we just say, hi, how was your day?

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We don't avoid them or attack them.

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So it could be complex
for us to understand.

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So I understand that this particular study
in the development of ethogram is one part

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of your PhD, which is focused on social
behaviour in cats and multicat households.

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But can you summarise for us
a specific piece of research

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that you got the award for?

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My whole PhD is focused on
understanding social behaviour, and

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social bonds in multicat assaults.

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But for doing so, we need a way to
describe our behaviour of the cats.

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Because I'm working with videos of cats,
I'm doing behavioural observations,

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and we then need a tool to describe
what is happening in these videos.

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And for that, we needed a ethogram.

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We have quite some ethograms available
on cat behaviour, but most of them were

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focusing on old behaviour of cats, like
all their general behaviour and not like

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really specifically on the social context.

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And because these ethograms are focusing
on every behaviour cats can possibly

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do, they're also very extensive and
it makes it difficult from my point of

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view, for this research to use it on
a day-to-day basis for these videos.

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So we needed our ethogram for that.

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So we decided to develop one
ourselves and also try to validate

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it so it would be stronger case.

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Yeah.

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Then we had like multiple staff in which
we assessed our face validity of the

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ethogram and also if it was reliable
across researchers from different people,

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would you would score the same behaviour?

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Are they seeing the same?

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We use literature search in our first
steps, and then we went to watching videos

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together with multiple people to see if
our definitions work, if we have like

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correct labels and really try to fine tune
it and after our different people looked

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at it, we tested it with independent
people if it was a reliable tool, if

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people can use it to score behaviour
and as that in the beginning, we also

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wanted it to be as practical as possible.

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So we tried to cluster our behaviours
into meaningful categories like not

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too much behaviours and illustrate
our behaviours with drawings or video

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clips so people can see the behaviour.

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I think that really helps.

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When I've looked at ethograms in the
past when I was more research active and

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there was just written descriptions of
the behaviour and maybe an illustration,

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I really struggled to tell the difference
between things like a cat batting or

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a cat coughing, and I couldn't work
out are these two distinct behaviours?

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Or are these just two researchers calling
the same thing by different names?

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When you see the videos that
really enhances the descriptions

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and you say, oh, okay, I get it.

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This is the same thing, or this
is a different thing, but having

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that singular language, that common
terminology, that we can all use just

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takes away that  cognitive unpicking
that we have to do to go, hang on a

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minute, what do they mean by this?

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What is actually the thing?

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And I think the ultimate goal is
if we could get our veterinary

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professionals and our caregivers,
whether they're the owner of the cat

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or somebody that cares for it in a
homing centre or a shelter, for example.

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If we could all speak the same language
when describing cats, then that would

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be absolutely a wonderful foundation on
which to build our cat welfare practices.

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Now Kelly St. Denis, JFMS editor, will be
interviewing Dr Sonya Gordon, first author

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of the article titled Use of pimobendan in
cats: a practical evidence-based review.

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Dr. Gordon, thank you so much for
joining us today, and thank you to

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you and your co-authors for such an
amazing clinical spotlight article.

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We don't really talk about  pimobendan
a lot, and there seem to be widely

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differing opinions regarding the use
of  pimobendan and cats, its efficacy,

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safety, and I wonder if we can just
touch on some of the concerns or even

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controversies that surround its use
or application in the feline species?

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I think the most obvious concern or
starting point would be that we have

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a species that has a disease that is
characterised mostly by thick heart walls

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that apparently squeeze quite well, right?

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Like good contractility and
pimobendan is an inotrope.

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It strengthens the heart muscle and
it's hard on the surface to see a role.

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I think that initial part of like how
is it possible this could play a role

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is probably one of the controversies.

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Yeah, and that's certainly one of the
most common diseases I guess, that we see

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in cats is hypertrophic cardiomyopathy,
so it's gonna be problematic.

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But I guess what we're understanding
is that this application is

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for congestive heart failure.

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So what sort of application would
we use if we have a cat that's

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got congestive heart failure?

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Is it regardless of the cause of the
heart failure or the limitations to

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the use, depending on the diagnosis?

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So someone in clinical practice has
a cat with congestive heart failure.

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Do they need to have a diagnosis of
the cause before they can even consider

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using something like  pimobendan?

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We don't always have a for sure diagnosis,
medicine is acceptable uncertainty.

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Having said that, it is really a drug
that if we're gonna use it in the cat,

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we're already trying to take advantage
of some of its other properties, like

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the fact that it can maybe improve
relaxation of these sick hearts.

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It might strengthen the  contractility
of the actual atrium, which tends

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to get dilated in these cats and not
squeeze well and puts them at risk

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for thrombus as well as heart failure.

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And then at the same time, as long
as a little after load reduction is

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tolerated lower resistance downstream.

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Maybe that does make it more ideally
or optimises forward cardiac output.

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So I think there's a constellation
of things that, it's not really just

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about the fact that everybody thinks of
pimobendan as an inotrope, but it actually

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has a lot of other things that might
benefit and it's not just obviously heart

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failure characterised by obvious weak
pumps where the heart does not squeeze.

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And that's an obvious indication,
but that's the rarity in cats

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and requires echo to diagnose.

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And so I think it's really about
how do you leverage this medication

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in the right situation clinically.

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And I think for me, I would say
I fit in the middle of the pack.

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And I think as we wrote this, we all did,
that we believe there's clear indications

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and then there's probably some that are a
little more grey zone and we used clinical

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studies or a little case vignettes in
the paper to try to show those off a bit.

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But the easiest way to say it
would be if you're treating a cat

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with heart failure and he's not
doing well on standard treatment.

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He may never get an echo by the
way, but he's getting Lasix and his

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pleural effusion keeps coming back,
or he's even got large volume pleural

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effusion at the outset and he doesn't
tolerate the high diuretic doses.

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I think as a rescue treatment, little
to lose, but as a first line, that's

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where people get a little twitchy.

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So as a rescue treatment then, and some
of these cases, I've noticed that it's

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with client awareness that you're using
something that is a rescue treatment that

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may or may not be effective, presumably
not necessarily harmful though, is

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that, would you say that's correct?

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Unless we have certain situations
happening with the heart?

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Yeah, I think, like I said,
the safety data is pretty good.

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The concern around safety would be that
if you take a heart and make it squeeze

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harder, and it's already squeezing
anyway, the contractility is good and

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you make it hyper dynamic, can you
exacerbate or even cause obstruction of

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the type we see in cats with hypertrophic
cardiomyopathy, so the obstructive form

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where they have abnormal mitral valve
motion, systolic anterior motion of

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the mitral valve, or they even have a
segment of their wall at the base of

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their heart, there's, at the base of
the septum there that's quite thick.

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As soon as you make them
squeeze excessively, perhaps

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you can exacerbate that.

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So that's the concern.

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The problem is, it's hard.

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I think if you echo a cat and you
show that he has that obstruction,

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you know he can do it, but it's
very hard to rule it out in any

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given cat because it's situational.

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And that's why cats can have murmurs
that are louder and softer, or

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one of the reasons they can have
murmurs that are louder and softer.

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So if you're being the safety person and
you're like, you want some, ability to

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assess this cat is tolerating the drug.

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It's easy to do by measuring a blood
pressure after you dose them or a few days

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after and listening to see if the murmur
gets louder or a new murmur develops.

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But I think if they tolerate it and
that they don't show any tachycardia

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or new murmurs that are louder, I
think you should have confidence

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in the chronic dosing, at least
Like I said, with the safety.

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Many of these retrospective studies
that we talked about that that have

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people reported using it do include
cats that have had obstruction and

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a primary hypertrophic phenotype,
and they certainly didn't seem to

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show any adverse effects, but that
is the concern that surrounds this.

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That's that conundrum, that controversy.

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Right.

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Echocardiogram is not
available for everyone.

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I live in Northern Ontario.

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We don't have a cardiologist at hand,
and not everyone can go for referrals.

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So sometimes we're basing it on
pocus or no echocardiogram or

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ultrasound of the heart at all.

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So I appreciate that list of things
that you would be looking for if

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you were gonna try to use it to
see if it was making things worse.

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So heart rate, blood pressure.

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New or louder murmur.

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We know enough about dosing that the
oral dose is available quite quickly.

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So if you were quite nervous, you
could literally give the first

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dose in the hospital and before
you release them, re-listen and I

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don't believe that a single dose
is gonna be detrimental anyway.

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So if that's your concern, it's easy
to, couple hours, two three hours

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after the first oral dose to listen.

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And if you're really worried,
measure blood pressure and such.

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We tried to show people where we
thought a good stepping off point

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was, but showed them that there's
a lot of places where you don't

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need to consider it at the outset.

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Yep.

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I really appreciate that, and I
certainly would say to our readers,

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like when you're using this, I love
these clinical spotlight articles

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as resources in my practice too.

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This one's a gem from that perspective
because we are confronted with these

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things and in the middle of a day
and we don't always know what to do.

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So it's really good to have access
to just even those case studies

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pimobendan aside, which is, I found
them very helpful and interesting.

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I think sometimes if you can read
something, and I thought like the clinical

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studies at the end that I really felt
strongly about including in this paper

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were really just to show an application
of what they read in a way that was

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probably digestible for a clinician.

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Yes, and very much so in that good
thinking process of, like you said,

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going through, is it a first timer?

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Have they relapsed?

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What do we know about their heart?

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Do we know anything situation so.

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What do we know about the
owner relationship with the cat

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and the ability to medicate?

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Yeah.

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This is so much more than we, I think
I've been a, a vet for 25, 26 years

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now, and we've really gotten good
at thinking about spectrum of care

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and that caregiver and caregiver
burden as well as the patient, right?

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So I think that's, those are
really important considerations

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to, to take into as well.

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Glad that you guys touched on that.

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So I just wanted to say thank you.

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I think I could ask questions
all  day about not just

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pimobendan, but cardiology.

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So thank you to you and your authors for
giving us this clinical spotlight article.

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I really appreciate it, and it's
gonna be very well received.

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We enjoyed the opportunity to put it
together and the chance to talk about it

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with

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you

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today.

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Did you like it?

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Join us again next month and
listen to more interviews about

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feline medicine and welfare.

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In the meantime, feel free to
leave a comment wherever you're

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listening to this podcast.

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We're always happy to receive feedback.

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We'll be back in February.

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Until then, you take care.