[00:00:07.13 - 00:00:10.02] Good morning, good afternoon and good evening.
[00:00:10.02 - 00:00:13.10] Welcome to Rethink Culture, the podcast that shines the spotlight on business
[00:00:13.10 - 00:00:15.19] leaders who are creating intentional cultures.
[00:00:16.05 - 00:00:18.19] My name is Andreas Konstantinou and I'm your host.
[00:00:18.19 - 00:00:22.11] I'm the founder of Rethink Culture, a company that aims to help 1 million
[00:00:22.11 - 00:00:25.04] businesses create a healthier, more fulfilling culture.
[00:00:25.09 - 00:00:29.17] We just launched our culture health score that turns your culture into a KPI and you
[00:00:29.17 - 00:00:31.22] can learn more at rethinkculture.co.
[00:00:33.07 - 00:00:38.18] Today I have the pleasure of welcoming Jeff Hoffman, who's a successful
[00:00:38.18 - 00:00:44.14] entrepreneur, CEO, motivational speaker, Hollywood film producer.
[00:00:44.16 - 00:00:48.09] And he actually tells me he's also the producer of a Grammy-winning jazz album,
[00:00:48.09 - 00:00:52.20] very curious to learn more, and executive producer of an Emmy award-winning
[00:00:52.20 - 00:00:54.07] television show.
[00:00:55.03 - 00:00:58.01] In his career, he's also founded multiple startups.
[00:00:58.01 - 00:01:02.06] He's best known as the CEO of priceline.com.
[00:01:03.19 - 00:01:08.11] that's today known as booking.com, youbid.com and much more.
[00:01:08.18 - 00:01:11.07] And so Jeff, with that long introduction,
[00:01:11.09 - 00:01:13.22] very welcome to the Rethink Culture Podcast.
[00:01:13.22 - 00:01:14.16] Thank you.
[00:01:14.16 - 00:01:20.00] I am so excited to be here because I am such a firm believer in the importance of
[00:01:20.00 - 00:01:20.12] culture.
[00:01:20.12 - 00:01:22.14] So I love that you do what you do.
[00:01:22.23 - 00:01:26.01] So why is culture important to you?
[00:01:26.01 - 00:01:26.17] Why on earth?
[00:01:26.17 - 00:01:27.21] Why culture specifically?
[00:01:27.21 - 00:01:33.09] So, you know, looking back to see the businesses we launched that were
[00:01:33.09 - 00:01:35.22] successful, why they were successful
[00:01:36.06 - 00:01:41.12] is for one simple reason, because all the best people in our industry all wanted to
[00:01:41.12 - 00:01:42.12] work for us.
[00:01:42.17 - 00:01:48.12] And what draws, I always tell people the key to success is finding rock stars.
[00:01:49.14 - 00:01:52.15] And people tell me I can't afford to pay rock stars, they're expensive.
[00:01:52.15 - 00:01:55.16] And I have to tell them that stop hiring average people.
[00:01:55.17 - 00:01:59.18] Instead of spending your money on three employees who are average, spend all that
[00:01:59.18 - 00:02:03.15] money on that one expensive rock star who will outperform those three people.
[00:02:03.15 - 00:02:06.07] So then they say to me, how do you attract rock stars
[00:02:06.07 - 00:02:08.19] to work for your company and the answer is culture.
[00:02:08.19 - 00:02:10.18] They can work anywhere they want.
[00:02:10.18 - 00:02:13.11] They care about the culture of the organization.
[00:02:13.11 - 00:02:14.09] What are your values?
[00:02:14.09 - 00:02:15.08] What do you stand for?
[00:02:15.08 - 00:02:17.23] What do you do with your profits and your success?
[00:02:17.23 - 00:02:19.04] What do you believe in?
[00:02:19.04 - 00:02:20.23] The rock stars don't just need a job.
[00:02:20.23 - 00:02:24.22] They want a place that will help them grow and experience and have impact.
[00:02:24.22 - 00:02:30.02] So culture is the way you attract the rock stars in any industry.
[00:02:30.02 - 00:02:31.18] That's why it's so important.
[00:02:32.00 - 00:02:34.14] Were you always this intentional about culture?
[00:02:34.16 - 00:02:36.10] Did you have a eureka moment?
[00:02:36.10 - 00:02:41.03] Nope, I will tell you the eureka moment because, glad you asked that, because I
[00:02:41.03 - 00:02:42.06] wasn't at all.
[00:02:43.03 - 00:02:45.22] Instinctively, or maybe even accidentally I was,
[00:02:46.00 - 00:02:48.18] but I didn't know that, here's what happened.
[00:02:48.19 - 00:02:50.22] I was... sold a company.
[00:02:51.07 - 00:02:54.16] And I was going on television because they were interviewing me.
[00:02:54.17 - 00:03:00.02] And on TV, they were asking me, they had our numbers, your profits and your margins
[00:03:00.02 - 00:03:01.21] and your sales and your revenues, like Mr.
[00:03:01.21 - 00:03:05.16] Hoffman, these are very impressive accomplishments, which one of those are
[00:03:05.16 - 00:03:06.21] you most proud of?
[00:03:07.03 - 00:03:08.17] And I said, none of those.
[00:03:08.17 - 00:03:13.12] Because while I was driving to the TV station that day, the woman that ran HR
[00:03:13.12 - 00:03:17.23] for me called me all excited and she said, Jeff, I just finished verifying something
[00:03:17.23 - 00:03:19.21] and I wanted to call and tell you right away.
[00:03:20.05 - 00:03:21.14] And I said, what is that?
[00:03:21.18 - 00:03:28.02] And she said, I just realized or proved, found out, verified that from the day you
[00:03:28.02 - 00:03:33.07] started this company, through all those years, until the day you sold the company,
[00:03:33.08 - 00:03:36.10] not one person that works for you has ever quit.
[00:03:36.17 - 00:03:39.00] And I was like, well, that's the coolest thing I've ever done.
[00:03:39.00 - 00:03:40.08] And I don't know how.
[00:03:40.09 - 00:03:43.02] So I started calling people from the TV station.
[00:03:43.07 - 00:03:44.21] And I was like, how come you guys don't quit?
[00:03:44.21 - 00:03:46.17] And they're like, Jeff, is this a problem?
[00:03:46.17 - 00:03:48.02] Do you want us to quit?
[00:03:48.08 - 00:03:49.11] I said, no.
[00:03:49.11 - 00:03:51.06] But you're all rock stars.
[00:03:51.06 - 00:03:52.01] You could work anywhere.
[00:03:52.01 - 00:03:55.15] How come you all stay here and all everybody wants to work here?
[00:03:55.15 - 00:03:57.20] And they said, well, since you asked, I'll tell you.
[00:03:57.20 - 00:04:00.23] So I literally said, wait, let me get a pencil and a paper.
[00:04:01.04 - 00:04:05.18] Because whatever I did accidentally or even instinctively, I need to do it on
[00:04:05.18 - 00:04:07.10] purpose going forward.
[00:04:07.10 - 00:04:10.23] And that's how I found that was the eureka moment, like you said, because they
[00:04:10.23 - 00:04:15.16] started talking about values and culture and something that I like that you talk
[00:04:15.16 - 00:04:16.10] about that I love.
[00:04:16.10 - 00:04:18.22] In fact, it's what you do, which is how do
[00:04:18.23 - 00:04:21.12] you measure culture and how do you reward it?
[00:04:21.13 - 00:04:26.02] Because people reward KPIs and compensation at companies.
[00:04:26.02 - 00:04:27.16] They know that how much did you sell?
[00:04:27.16 - 00:04:29.09] How many units did you sell?
[00:04:29.09 - 00:04:29.22] Right?
[00:04:29.22 - 00:04:32.12] How long did you get the product finished by the due date?
[00:04:32.12 - 00:04:36.21] Those are all work related KPIs and compensation.
[00:04:36.21 - 00:04:39.17] But how do you measure and compensate people
[00:04:39.19 - 00:04:42.16] for demonstrating and living your culture?
[00:04:42.16 - 00:04:44.10] I didn't know any of that stuff.
[00:04:44.11 - 00:04:50.02] But my employees started telling me because the culture here is what we
[00:04:50.02 - 00:04:50.23] believe in.
[00:04:50.23 - 00:04:55.17] and we feel like we're at home in a tribe of people with shared beliefs.
[00:04:55.17 - 00:04:58.02] I was like, I had no idea that was so important to you.
[00:04:58.02 - 00:05:00.14] And they said, that's why we don't want to work somewhere else.
[00:05:00.14 - 00:05:02.21] So it was definitely a eureka moment.
[00:05:02.21 - 00:05:08.02] And going forward, I said, I need to make sure I'm always focused on creating an
[00:05:08.02 - 00:05:12.06] environment and a culture that makes you guys want to stay here.
[00:05:12.15 - 00:05:20.19] So when you say culture, you talked about values, you talked about measuring and
[00:05:20.19 - 00:05:27.19] rewarding culture fit, which was one aspect of the culture of, let's say,
[00:05:27.19 - 00:05:33.12] Priceline or any other company that you were really proud of, that you think you
[00:05:33.12 - 00:05:35.00] did extremely well?
[00:05:35.03 - 00:05:41.21] Sure, so I think the thing that we did extremely well was, again, compensation is
[00:05:41.21 - 00:05:43.11] for you performing at your work.
[00:05:43.11 - 00:05:45.17] We'll stick with sales because that's easy.
[00:05:45.17 - 00:05:47.15] You have to sell a thousand units this year.
[00:05:47.15 - 00:05:53.17] You sold 1200 units of our product, so you got great compensation.
[00:05:53.17 - 00:05:57.18] When we talk about KPIs, they're business objectives, and everybody knew that.
[00:05:57.18 - 00:06:00.02] But we started a program.
[00:06:00.02 - 00:06:03.06] In fact, you'll probably get a kick out of this story.
[00:06:03.19 - 00:06:05.02] I came in one morning
[00:06:05.02 - 00:06:06.08] and everyone's like shh.
[00:06:06.10 - 00:06:08.06] And I said why and they pointed.
[00:06:08.06 - 00:06:13.04] One of my employees, Natalie, was face down sleeping in the office, clearly in
[00:06:13.04 - 00:06:15.03] the clothes she was wearing last night.
[00:06:15.04 - 00:06:17.21] So she had stayed all night, obviously, and fallen asleep.
[00:06:17.21 - 00:06:21.16] The other interesting thing was that she was not sleeping in her own desk.
[00:06:21.16 - 00:06:23.14] She was sleeping in someone else's.
[00:06:23.18 - 00:06:27.17] And so after a while, she woke up really embarrassed, right?
[00:06:27.17 - 00:06:30.17] She had like a keyboard on her forehead because she was face down.
[00:06:30.17 - 00:06:32.16] And she just ran out of the office and I
[00:06:32.18 - 00:06:35.01] said, don't come back, just go home and sleep.
[00:06:35.11 - 00:06:38.15] Of course being the employee she was she took a nap, showered, and came back three
[00:06:38.15 - 00:06:41.01] hours later in the afternoon, but
[00:06:41.10 - 00:06:44.23] I asked, so I went and asked her, what's going on?
[00:06:45.02 - 00:06:47.22] And she said, well, she's an account manager.
[00:06:48.02 - 00:06:54.11] And she said, while I was at my desk, the account manager who works next to me was
[00:06:54.11 - 00:06:59.04] having trouble with a problem with her customer, not Natalie's customer, her
[00:06:59.04 - 00:07:00.14] teammate's customer.
[00:07:00.19 - 00:07:06.11] And she said at the end of the day, her teammate said to the customer, hey, look,
[00:07:06.11 - 00:07:09.06] I'm a single mom, I have to pick my kids up at school.
[00:07:09.06 - 00:07:10.23] And the customer wasn't upset.
[00:07:11.10 - 00:07:13.18] said thanks for spending so much time
[00:07:14.08 - 00:07:20.00] you know, working on this, I'll talk to you tomorrow, but Natalie got up.
[00:07:20.03 - 00:07:23.17] And so part of our cultural thing is we're all in this together, right?
[00:07:23.17 - 00:07:25.10] And I talk about that a lot.
[00:07:25.13 - 00:07:31.06] Um, I talk about the fact that, um, with the, we're only strong as our weakest link
[00:07:31.06 - 00:07:34.17] and that we've got it, we all succeed or win or lose together.
[00:07:34.17 - 00:07:38.07] We talked about these things as part of our value set and our culture.
[00:07:38.08 - 00:07:43.01] And so anyway, it happened was Natalie, after everybody left, stayed late, moved
[00:07:43.01 - 00:07:44.01] over to the other desk,
[00:07:44.01 - 00:07:48.05] called this customer, said, I'm not your account manager, but I was listening
[00:07:48.05 - 00:07:50.04] today, and I have an idea.
[00:07:50.04 - 00:07:52.05] Turns out they stayed up all night.
[00:07:52.14 - 00:07:57.12] The customer did too with Natalie, not her customer, and they fixed the problem.
[00:07:57.14 - 00:08:01.17] So when I got into the office, I got a massively happy note from my customer.
[00:08:01.17 - 00:08:03.09] Your people are amazing.
[00:08:03.09 - 00:08:05.13] She's not even my account manager.
[00:08:05.13 - 00:08:09.03] Super happy customer who said, I'm gonna tell everybody, I'm gonna post this.
[00:08:09.03 - 00:08:10.10] Well, how great your company is.
[00:08:10.10 - 00:08:11.13] So that's a win.
[00:08:11.20 - 00:08:16.20] And Natalie, who doesn't even get compensated, her KPIs do not include that
[00:08:16.20 - 00:08:18.15] customer, but that's our culture.
[00:08:18.15 - 00:08:20.09] Let's all win or lose together, right?
[00:08:20.09 - 00:08:21.16] Let's do this together.
[00:08:21.16 - 00:08:25.21] So, I went out, and you asked me if it was something that I did well, I'm sorry for
[00:08:25.21 - 00:08:27.16] the long story that I was proud of.
[00:08:27.16 - 00:08:32.13] I went out at lunch the next day, and I went looking for a trophy shop.
[00:08:32.15 - 00:08:34.17] And all I could find was sports trophies.
[00:08:34.20 - 00:08:37.06] And, you know, they had football, they had
[00:08:37.08 - 00:08:39.19] baseball, basketball, none of those worked.
[00:08:39.19 - 00:08:42.14] But there was a Taekwondo trophy.
[00:08:42.18 - 00:08:44.20] The problem was all the rest were made out of metal.
[00:08:44.20 - 00:08:50.09] The Taekwondo one was this cheap plastic, gold-colored plastic, $12,
[00:08:51.05 - 00:08:53.14] the worst thing in there, but I bought it anyway.
[00:08:53.19 - 00:08:54.21] And I went back, and when I got there, I went out on the floor and I told all my
[00:08:54.21 - 00:08:58.12] And I went back, and when I got there, I went out on the floor and I told all my
[00:08:58.12 - 00:09:01.22] employees, I said, everybody stop working and come to Natalie's desk.
[00:09:02.00 - 00:09:03.17] And everyone's like, what's going on?
[00:09:03.19 - 00:09:05.23] And I had everybody gather around the desk.
[00:09:06.00 - 00:09:08.15] And I said, y'all know what Natalie did the other night?
[00:09:08.15 - 00:09:13.19] And I told them, and our values, our culture, we have signs on the wall that
[00:09:13.19 - 00:09:16.05] talk about what our culture is and what we believe in.
[00:09:16.05 - 00:09:19.16] And I pointed at that one, about winning together.
[00:09:19.20 - 00:09:23.17] And I said, that's one of the key tenets of our culture.
[00:09:23.21 - 00:09:28.06] And Natalie didn't just believe it, she lived it last night.
[00:09:28.07 - 00:09:34.19] And I said, so to show you how much we value our culture and people living our
[00:09:34.19 - 00:09:38.18] culture, I took that little plastic statue and I couldn't come up with it's
[00:09:38.18 - 00:09:39.20] Taekwondo.
[00:09:39.20 - 00:09:44.11] So what I did was I said, for Natalie's stealth in the middle of the night while
[00:09:44.11 - 00:09:45.15] you were sleeping.
[00:09:45.20 - 00:09:48.04] I'm now naming Natalie the first ever
[00:09:48.06 - 00:09:51.04] recipient of the company's Golden Ninja award.
[00:09:51.04 - 00:09:54.18] And I put this little plastic trophy on her desk and I said, Natalie, you are now
[00:09:54.18 - 00:09:56.23] the owner of the Golden Ninja trophy.
[00:09:57.06 - 00:10:00.20] And everyone else was staring and one of the people across the room said, how do I
[00:10:00.20 - 00:10:01.19] get that?
[00:10:01.23 - 00:10:03.09] And then it was on.
[00:10:03.09 - 00:10:08.23] I was like, you just need to do something that demonstrates that you are living our
[00:10:08.23 - 00:10:11.00] values and living our culture.
[00:10:11.00 - 00:10:13.17] So they've never been compensated for culture before.
[00:10:13.20 - 00:10:15.20] And Bill, the guy that said that pointed at
[00:10:15.22 - 00:10:17.22] Natalie and he goes, don't get comfortable.
[00:10:17.22 - 00:10:19.21] And everybody started laughing.
[00:10:19.21 - 00:10:26.22] But they realized that if it's the boss management standing up and saying our
[00:10:26.22 - 00:10:31.03] culture is real and it matters and recognizing an employee in front of their
[00:10:31.03 - 00:10:36.07] peers for a cultural accomplishment, which no one had ever seen before, that was a
[00:10:36.07 - 00:10:37.06] whole different thing.
[00:10:37.06 - 00:10:38.18] My employees loved it.
[00:10:38.18 - 00:10:40.19] That statue became competitive.
[00:10:40.19 - 00:10:44.00] Everybody wanted to win a culture award at our company.
[00:10:44.23 - 00:10:49.19] And it just, you know, it was a little $12 idea I had, but it became a major thing in
[00:10:49.19 - 00:10:53.08] our company that let people know our culture actually matters.
[00:10:53.08 - 00:10:56.03] These aren't just posters, this is how we live.
[00:10:56.03 - 00:11:00.15] And it's something that you made up impromptu, right?
[00:11:00.15 - 00:11:02.17] It's not, it wasn't a strategy.
[00:11:03.01 - 00:11:08.20] It was a spur of the moment and it really touched the employees.
[00:11:08.20 - 00:11:17.15] Um, I mean, their heart, I think, and, and resonated.
[00:11:17.17 - 00:11:18.22] I love that.
[00:11:18.22 - 00:11:20.03] Really made a difference.
[00:11:20.03 - 00:11:22.22] And it got people talking about culture.
[00:11:22.22 - 00:11:27.08] And it got people saying things like, in the company I used to work for, they put
[00:11:27.08 - 00:11:30.06] posters on the wall, but no one really believed that stuff.
[00:11:30.12 - 00:11:34.14] And they said, in this company, clearly our values mean something to the people
[00:11:34.14 - 00:11:37.15] that own this company, because of that happening.
[00:11:37.19 - 00:11:42.07] So it impacted the team a lot, and I heard a lot of discussion about it.
[00:11:42.15 - 00:11:47.07] What do you think separates the companies who just put values on a wall and those
[00:11:47.07 - 00:11:48.06] that actually live them?
[00:11:48.06 - 00:11:54.20] You know, I think that becomes like a little crack in the damn of credibility.
[00:11:54.20 - 00:11:59.02] What I mean by that is employees start saying they just make these posters, they
[00:11:59.02 - 00:12:00.11] don't even care, right?
[00:12:00.11 - 00:12:03.17] They're just trying to impress us and they don't even believe it.
[00:12:03.17 - 00:12:06.23] So what I mean by a crack in the damn is you got a little bit of leak in your
[00:12:06.23 - 00:12:10.12] credibility because the next time you say something, they're like, yeah, do they
[00:12:10.12 - 00:12:13.15] believe that too or are they just trying to make us feel better?
[00:12:13.15 - 00:12:14.06] So.
[00:12:14.11 - 00:12:18.02] They start to think that you say things because you think it's cool to say them,
[00:12:18.02 - 00:12:19.15] not because you believe in them.
[00:12:19.20 - 00:12:21.20] And so I was like that.
[00:12:22.10 - 00:12:25.10] I only ever had one corporate job for a big corporate.
[00:12:25.11 - 00:12:29.06] And our management would say things and then they'd behave completely differently.
[00:12:29.09 - 00:12:32.18] And so we started saying, what else are they telling us that they're just telling
[00:12:32.18 - 00:12:35.20] us now that we didn't know that we couldn't trust them?
[00:12:36.02 - 00:12:40.10] But we see them posting one thing and then doing another and we're like, wait a
[00:12:40.10 - 00:12:42.11] minute, so what is true around here?
[00:12:42.12 - 00:12:48.19] So it starts to cause a credibility issue for everything you say if people realize
[00:12:48.19 - 00:12:52.06] you just put that up as a poster and you don't even live that yourself.
[00:12:52.10 - 00:12:59.05] And very often as a leader you turn the blind eye and you don't just want to admit
[00:12:59.05 - 00:13:02.03] that people are not following.
[00:13:04.00 - 00:13:08.01] What was a moment where you learned the hard way?
[00:13:08.10 - 00:13:12.21] Whether it is culture or something else that, you know, changed you as a leader,
[00:13:12.23 - 00:13:14.10] made you a better leader.
[00:13:14.12 - 00:13:19.11] So I guess learning the hard way, there have been a couple.
[00:13:20.09 - 00:13:25.02] At one company, I needed help.
[00:13:25.02 - 00:13:26.18] This was a startup that was growing.
[00:13:26.18 - 00:13:31.12] So I made somebody at the company a co-founder.
[00:13:31.16 - 00:13:32.17] He wasn't a partner.
[00:13:32.17 - 00:13:35.06] I made him a co-founder with me and made him
[00:13:35.08 - 00:13:37.22] a partner because I was doing the marketing.
[00:13:38.01 - 00:13:40.06] I was the outside person and he was the inside person.
[00:13:40.06 - 00:13:43.00] He was doing the technical development of the product,
[00:13:43.00 - 00:13:46.03] and I was out there marketing and selling it, and we were a good team.
[00:13:46.03 - 00:13:49.08] So I made him a co-founder and a 50-50 partner.
[00:13:49.14 - 00:13:57.00] And based on his work, not on a cultural assessment, which I didn't do, and by
[00:13:57.00 - 00:14:01.11] making him a co-founder, he suddenly was in charge of half the company.
[00:14:01.15 - 00:14:05.00] And before he was just one of the company, and I was in charge.
[00:14:05.00 - 00:14:09.00] I put him in charge of half the company, and then as soon as there were, which
[00:14:09.00 - 00:14:12.11] there always are, wherever humans gather, you have human issues.
[00:14:14.10 - 00:14:18.12] I have a friend who has this great quote about growing a company.
[00:14:18.23 - 00:14:24.11] He says, everything was going fine until people.
[00:14:24.11 - 00:14:28.22] And I always love that because in the early days, all you're doing is building
[00:14:28.22 - 00:14:29.19] your product.
[00:14:29.19 - 00:14:35.03] But as you grow, you have days where you like, I've handled 15 people issues and I
[00:14:35.03 - 00:14:37.08] haven't even talked to a customer today.
[00:14:37.08 - 00:14:40.01] Because as the group gets bigger, that's how humans behave.
[00:14:40.01 - 00:14:40.22] You get human issues.
[00:14:40.22 - 00:14:41.20] But anyway.
[00:14:42.04 - 00:14:48.06] He had a problem with an employee, and an employee who had a big personal issue at
[00:14:48.06 - 00:14:53.11] home with family and was extremely emotional and upset at work and wasn't
[00:14:53.11 - 00:14:54.18] able to do his work.
[00:14:54.22 - 00:14:59.13] And what I was going to do was walk over there and tell this employee, how can we
[00:14:59.13 - 00:15:00.13] help you?
[00:15:00.13 - 00:15:01.12] Do you need some counseling?
[00:15:01.12 - 00:15:03.06] Do you need some days off?
[00:15:03.06 - 00:15:06.18] What do we need to do to help you with your family situation and you can just
[00:15:06.18 - 00:15:09.03] come back to work when you're able to focus.
[00:15:09.08 - 00:15:10.02] We want to help you.
[00:15:10.02 - 00:15:12.14] We want... your family is more important than your job.
[00:15:12.16 - 00:15:14.13] So I'm on the way over there to do that.
[00:15:14.13 - 00:15:20.16] And I overhear this person that I made a partner based only on work, not cultural
[00:15:20.16 - 00:15:23.08] fit, go over to him and say this.
[00:15:23.10 - 00:15:26.06] He said, I heard you were crying at work.
[00:15:26.06 - 00:15:28.02] We don't pay you to cry.
[00:15:28.02 - 00:15:30.16] So whatever the hell your problem is, get over it.
[00:15:32.00 - 00:15:36.03] And I stood there and said, I have just made a massive mistake.
[00:15:36.05 - 00:15:39.01] And I pulled him aside and I said, why on earth would you say that?
[00:15:39.01 - 00:15:42.15] And he said, because we don't pay people to be non-productive and to sit at their
[00:15:42.15 - 00:15:43.20] desk and cry.
[00:15:43.20 - 00:15:47.10] Whatever his problem is, he needs to be professional and deal with it.
[00:15:47.10 - 00:15:51.08] Well, his problem is somebody in his family was dying.
[00:15:52.07 - 00:15:54.11] And I said, do you even know what he was crying about?
[00:15:54.11 - 00:15:56.07] He said, it's not our business.
[00:15:56.18 - 00:15:57.14] This is a company.
[00:15:57.14 - 00:15:59.04] His job is to write code.
[00:15:59.04 - 00:16:02.00] And I was like, why don't you leave right now and go to lunch?
[00:16:02.00 - 00:16:03.12] I don't want you in the building.
[00:16:03.13 - 00:16:06.00] And I went and talked to my employees, my team.
[00:16:06.00 - 00:16:08.17] So you asked learning the hard way, that was the hard way.
[00:16:08.21 - 00:16:12.23] And then I started uncovering, talking to people while he was gone and finding out
[00:16:12.23 - 00:16:16.03] that he was treating people in a way that some of my best people were looking for
[00:16:16.03 - 00:16:17.07] other jobs.
[00:16:17.07 - 00:16:19.20] And I was like, please don't go, I'll get rid of him.
[00:16:20.01 - 00:16:21.17] But people were job hunting.
[00:16:21.17 - 00:16:26.03] And I didn't even know any of that because their view was Jeff brought him in so he
[00:16:26.03 - 00:16:27.17] must think this is okay.
[00:16:28.00 - 00:16:33.08] Major mistake, major learn the hard way, super hard to remove him from the company
[00:16:33.10 - 00:16:35.19] and then to recover the damage that he did.
[00:16:35.21 - 00:16:38.14] I did not know that I should, well, I made the
[00:16:38.16 - 00:16:41.08] mistake of not doing a cultural assessment.
[00:16:41.08 - 00:16:43.09] I only did a skills assessment.
[00:16:43.19 - 00:16:47.22] And the people we hire send messages about our standards.
[00:16:47.22 - 00:16:50.02] Yes, exactly.
[00:16:50.02 - 00:16:51.17] And that's the mistake that I made.
[00:16:51.17 - 00:16:53.12] People are like, well, that must be okay with Jeff.
[00:16:53.12 - 00:16:57.01] He brought him in here and told us how great he was, but I was only talking about
[00:16:57.01 - 00:16:59.08] his technical abilities, my mistake.
[00:16:59.08 - 00:17:03.03] What is, let me ask you a different question.
[00:17:03.03 - 00:17:08.09] How do you balance compassion with consequence or accountability?
[00:17:08.22 - 00:17:13.09] So how do you balance high performance with really caring about people?
[00:17:13.09 - 00:17:17.05] Sure, I think that's a great question and
[00:17:17.07 - 00:17:21.04] I, in fact, really glad you brought that up.
[00:17:21.04 - 00:17:23.12] Let me just share another story with you.
[00:17:23.12 - 00:17:28.11] Now that I'm retired and mentor leaders and CEOs, I call this one guy, he sends me
[00:17:28.11 - 00:17:29.12] a note, can you give me a call?
[00:17:29.12 - 00:17:32.13] So I call him up, I go, hey John, and he goes, Jeff.
[00:17:33.01 - 00:17:34.15] He said, can I call you back?
[00:17:34.15 - 00:17:35.23] He said, I said, what's up?
[00:17:35.23 - 00:17:40.01] And he said, I have to go find something for John to do again, sorry...
[00:17:40.01 - 00:17:41.05] For Jack to do again.
[00:17:41.05 - 00:17:43.15] And I said, John, every part of that sentence is wrong.
[00:17:43.17 - 00:17:45.00] And he said, why?
[00:17:45.00 - 00:17:47.19] And I said, find something for Jack to do again.
[00:17:47.19 - 00:17:49.03] I said, what's the story?
[00:17:49.03 - 00:17:53.02] He said, we hired him for sales and he didn't sell anything.
[00:17:53.02 - 00:17:57.08] So we moved him to marketing and the sales team said, all his marketing materials
[00:17:57.08 - 00:17:58.08] were wrong.
[00:17:58.09 - 00:18:01.06] He said, so now I'm gonna go find something else for him to do.
[00:18:01.09 - 00:18:02.02] I said, why?
[00:18:02.02 - 00:18:03.23] And he said, compassion.
[00:18:03.23 - 00:18:04.23] He didn't use those words.
[00:18:04.23 - 00:18:06.20] He said, I love this guy, he's so nice.
[00:18:06.20 - 00:18:08.20] He's a friend of mine, everybody likes him.
[00:18:08.20 - 00:18:10.08] I'll find something for him.
[00:18:10.08 - 00:18:12.11] So here is where you draw that line.
[00:18:12.20 - 00:18:19.08] I said to him that business is about results.
[00:18:19.12 - 00:18:21.05] And you don't even make it personal.
[00:18:21.05 - 00:18:26.11] You simply say, this job is this slot in the company.
[00:18:26.11 - 00:18:30.00] This job has to achieve the following list of results.
[00:18:30.00 - 00:18:33.15] We are currently not seeing these results, so we need to find somebody who can
[00:18:33.15 - 00:18:34.21] deliver the results.
[00:18:34.21 - 00:18:37.20] And what I told him is, if you are
[00:18:38.01 - 00:18:44.00] finding things for people to do at your company because you like them, that's why
[00:18:44.00 - 00:18:48.22] you're not firing them, then you are not running a business, you are running an
[00:18:48.22 - 00:18:51.01] adult daycare center.
[00:18:51.04 - 00:18:53.00] You are running a center where people drop
[00:18:53.02 - 00:18:55.03] adults off and you create activities for them.
[00:18:55.03 - 00:18:56.19] It's an adult daycare center.
[00:18:56.19 - 00:19:02.00] A business is a place where every position has a list of deliverables and if it
[00:19:02.00 - 00:19:04.12] doesn't deliver them, you can't work there.
[00:19:04.13 - 00:19:06.07] And so they said, what about compassion?
[00:19:06.07 - 00:19:07.20] Well, I will tell you this.
[00:19:08.07 - 00:19:13.18] I have had many tears cried on my shoulder in my office, but I still fired them.
[00:19:14.00 - 00:19:19.10] I have cried many tears in my office because I love those people and I know
[00:19:19.10 - 00:19:20.16] it's going to be a problem.
[00:19:20.16 - 00:19:24.11] The difference is compassion is outside of the job.
[00:19:24.11 - 00:19:27.16] So for example, people are always surprised when I tell them this.
[00:19:28.00 - 00:19:34.07] Twice, two times, I let employees live in my house for as long as they want and pay
[00:19:34.07 - 00:19:37.21] no rent and eat my food until they could find another job.
[00:19:37.21 - 00:19:42.06] Because I knew that when I fired them, they would be in financial trouble, but I
[00:19:42.06 - 00:19:43.06] still fired them.
[00:19:43.06 - 00:19:44.22] I'm not running a daycare center.
[00:19:44.22 - 00:19:46.01] I'm running a business.
[00:19:46.01 - 00:19:48.02] You can run a daycare center at your house.
[00:19:48.06 - 00:19:50.10] I have loaned people money personally.
[00:19:50.10 - 00:19:51.21] I have let them stay in my house.
[00:19:51.21 - 00:19:55.23] I have found them other jobs, but I never kept them at the company.
[00:19:55.23 - 00:20:02.03] Compassion is something you do on your own, outside of meaning that you always
[00:20:02.03 - 00:20:03.21] have compassion every day at work.
[00:20:03.21 - 00:20:06.11] But the point is that you're running a business.
[00:20:06.13 - 00:20:07.13] and results have to win.
[00:20:07.13 - 00:20:12.07] And people that don't generate results, you show them compassion on your own, but
[00:20:12.07 - 00:20:15.01] you don't show them a paycheck for not performing.
[00:20:15.01 - 00:20:17.06] It brings everybody else and the whole company
[00:20:17.08 - 00:20:19.12] down and they don't believe in you anymore.
[00:20:19.12 - 00:20:23.21] Here's what they say, looks like you don't really have to do your job here because
[00:20:23.21 - 00:20:27.16] Jack, this guy never performs and that seems to be okay with Jeff, so why am I
[00:20:27.16 - 00:20:28.22] working so hard?
[00:20:29.00 - 00:20:32.05] When I call everyone and said, I know everybody loves Jack, but I'm letting him
[00:20:32.05 - 00:20:33.09] go Friday.
[00:20:33.12 - 00:20:35.15] They said, oh, Jack, we know this is going to be tough.
[00:20:35.15 - 00:20:36.18] If you need anything, call me.
[00:20:36.18 - 00:20:38.00] You can borrow my car.
[00:20:38.00 - 00:20:39.22] My employees all showed compassion.
[00:20:39.22 - 00:20:42.20] But not one of them said, don't fire him just because he's nice.
[00:20:42.20 - 00:20:44.04] I hope that makes sense.
[00:20:44.17 - 00:20:45.18] Let them live in your house.
[00:20:45.18 - 00:20:46.20] Loan them money.
[00:20:46.20 - 00:20:48.06] Show compassion.
[00:20:48.06 - 00:20:53.01] But people that don't perform the business objectives cannot stay at your company
[00:20:53.01 - 00:20:54.09] just because you like them.
[00:20:54.12 - 00:21:00.20] Right, so what I hear is compassion is a personal duty, performance is an
[00:21:00.20 - 00:21:02.10] obligation to the company.
[00:21:02.10 - 00:21:04.09] There, I think you said it very, very well.
[00:21:04.09 - 00:21:05.05] Thank you.
[00:21:06.17 - 00:21:10.23] How did your leadership style develop over the course of time, Jeff?
[00:21:10.23 - 00:21:17.09] Was there someone who really influenced you in how you think about people?
[00:21:17.21 - 00:21:18.22] There were.
[00:21:19.01 - 00:21:23.14] The problem is, the first company I started, I was a CEO when I was 24.
[00:21:23.15 - 00:21:27.07] And this was the company where we were building the kiosk when you go to the
[00:21:27.07 - 00:21:29.08] airport and you check in at the check-in kiosk.
[00:21:29.08 - 00:21:30.19] That was my first product.
[00:21:30.19 - 00:21:31.22] But I was 20-something.
[00:21:31.22 - 00:21:33.21] I had one job ever and I failed at it.
[00:21:33.21 - 00:21:35.21] It was my corporate job that I quit.
[00:21:36.01 - 00:21:37.21] And so I don't know how to run a business.
[00:21:38.09 - 00:21:41.01] And I'm hiring 40-year-olds and I'm 20-something.
[00:21:41.08 - 00:21:44.01] And they're saying, okay, you just hired me.
[00:21:44.01 - 00:21:44.19] What do you want me to do?
[00:21:44.19 - 00:21:45.15] I was like, I don't know.
[00:21:45.15 - 00:21:46.23] That's why I hired you.
[00:21:47.01 - 00:21:49.05] Figure it out, you're way smarter than me.
[00:21:49.13 - 00:21:53.06] So I was drowning with the first company that I started.
[00:21:53.06 - 00:21:56.13] So I certainly didn't know anything about leadership.
[00:21:56.13 - 00:21:58.04] In fact, I had a funny moment.
[00:21:58.04 - 00:21:59.23] I'd only hired three people.
[00:22:00.06 - 00:22:05.11] So there were four of us at this kiosk company and somebody, one of the three
[00:22:05.11 - 00:22:09.20] people came running down the hall and he goes, Jeff, the other two employees are
[00:22:09.20 - 00:22:12.13] arguing and I think they're about to fight.
[00:22:12.16 - 00:22:14.03] You better get down here.
[00:22:14.06 - 00:22:16.18] So we're running down the hall and
[00:22:17.00 - 00:22:19.15] to break up any potential physical fight.
[00:22:19.18 - 00:22:22.23] And my employee, when we're running, goes, hey boss, what are you gonna do when we
[00:22:22.23 - 00:22:23.20] get there?
[00:22:23.20 - 00:22:27.20] And I stopped running and I said, I have no idea what I'm supposed to do when I get
[00:22:27.20 - 00:22:28.12] there.
[00:22:28.12 - 00:22:31.04] I said, no training for this, no experience.
[00:22:31.04 - 00:22:32.14] I don't know what I'm gonna do.
[00:22:32.14 - 00:22:37.01] And I said, I hope they figured it out before I get there because I have no clue.
[00:22:37.01 - 00:22:40.00] And that's when I started realizing, I don't know what leadership is.
[00:22:40.03 - 00:22:46.09] And you're raised to believe, if you ask a child, what do you think the boss does?
[00:22:46.09 - 00:22:50.07] The child would tell you, the boss is the one that tells everybody else what to do.
[00:22:50.07 - 00:22:50.21] Right?
[00:22:50.21 - 00:22:52.14] That's what we think leadership is.
[00:22:52.14 - 00:22:58.06] But what I learned is that real leaders don't create followers at all.
[00:22:58.06 - 00:23:00.04] Real leaders create other leaders.
[00:23:00.08 - 00:23:04.01] I didn't have success by telling people what to do and being in charge.
[00:23:04.02 - 00:23:09.02] I had success when I started saying, I don't really know what I'm doing, so I am
[00:23:09.02 - 00:23:11.07] going to go find people smarter than me.
[00:23:11.07 - 00:23:13.02] Then I'm going to hire those people.
[00:23:13.02 - 00:23:15.23] Then I'm going to just do what I need to do to make sure they're happy there.
[00:23:15.23 - 00:23:17.15] Then I'm gonna get out of the way.
[00:23:17.19 - 00:23:20.18] So I've only ever written one book with a friend of mine, David Finkel.
[00:23:20.18 - 00:23:22.10] We wrote a book called Scale.
[00:23:22.14 - 00:23:27.01] And pretty much page one says, you're never gonna scale your business till you
[00:23:27.01 - 00:23:28.05] get out of the way.
[00:23:28.08 - 00:23:33.09] And you can't get out of the way until you can trust and empower people to do things
[00:23:33.09 - 00:23:35.17] without your permission, right, outside of you.
[00:23:35.17 - 00:23:38.02] And you can't trust and empower until you're
[00:23:38.04 - 00:23:40.08] surrounded by people smarter than you.
[00:23:40.08 - 00:23:44.00] So what I evolved to was instead of running the business,
[00:23:44.03 - 00:23:49.00] I evolved to leaving the office to go find people smarter than me and then letting
[00:23:49.00 - 00:23:50.10] them run the business.
[00:23:50.10 - 00:23:54.04] Now I have CEOs that I say, why don't you just let her do that?
[00:23:54.08 - 00:23:56.18] And they'll say, well, she's not going to do it.
[00:23:56.18 - 00:23:58.00] I started this company.
[00:23:58.00 - 00:23:59.15] It's my idea, right?
[00:23:59.15 - 00:24:00.11] I'm the CEO.
[00:24:00.11 - 00:24:01.11] I'm the founder.
[00:24:01.11 - 00:24:03.02] No one's going to do it the way I do it.
[00:24:03.02 - 00:24:04.02] And my answer is right.
[00:24:04.02 - 00:24:06.23] She might do it better than the way you do it.
[00:24:06.23 - 00:24:09.19] So step back and let other people grow.
[00:24:09.19 - 00:24:11.08] Until you can do that
[00:24:11.20 - 00:24:12.13] you don't scale.
[00:24:12.13 - 00:24:15.14] We didn't grow until we started letting go.
[00:24:15.14 - 00:24:18.04] And I learned that in an evolutionary way.
[00:24:18.04 - 00:24:19.13] No one told me that.
[00:24:19.13 - 00:24:22.10] Which is why, by the way, I do things like this, right?
[00:24:22.10 - 00:24:25.07] Joining your podcast or the mentoring I do.
[00:24:25.12 - 00:24:29.06] Because when I was there, I was saying, I wish somebody that knew how to do this
[00:24:29.06 - 00:24:30.23] would tell me what I'm supposed to do.
[00:24:31.00 - 00:24:36.02] So then I thought, well, later, if I figured out and learned how to do it, then
[00:24:36.02 - 00:24:38.09] I should, I know what it feels like.
[00:24:38.09 - 00:24:38.16] Right?
[00:24:38.16 - 00:24:40.23] So I should try to share what I've learned,
[00:24:41.02 - 00:24:43.10] which is what you and I are doing today.
[00:24:43.10 - 00:24:47.07] Hopefully, I'm sharing something that helps somebody somewhere.
[00:24:47.08 - 00:24:50.03] I'm sure it does.
[00:24:50.07 - 00:24:55.05] The notion that often troubles me is that we still use the term resources for
[00:24:55.05 - 00:24:57.06] people, human resources.
[00:24:57.16 - 00:24:59.18] And so this industry is still alive and
[00:24:59.20 - 00:25:02.08] kicking and events are still called HR events.
[00:25:02.08 - 00:25:09.04] And still some of us are trying to build a solid culture, but there is still people
[00:25:09.04 - 00:25:15.11] who are using the term resources and who see people as a means to do stuff.
[00:25:16.20 - 00:25:21.10] How did you think about the HR part of your company?
[00:25:21.10 - 00:25:24.03] Like what kind of people did you hire to
[00:25:24.05 - 00:25:26.22] run people or to run the people operations?
[00:25:27.04 - 00:25:30.19] It’s interesting you say that because HR was one of the big ones.
[00:25:31.01 - 00:25:37.08] I was, and for all the people that are listening to us now, they're founders,
[00:25:37.08 - 00:25:39.18] they're CEOs, they're running a company.
[00:25:39.21 - 00:25:42.06] And so if I ask them, when you were building
[00:25:42.08 - 00:25:44.13] your company, did you interview people?
[00:25:44.13 - 00:25:45.14] They say, of course I did.
[00:25:45.14 - 00:25:46.09] It's my company.
[00:25:46.09 - 00:25:47.17] I hired the people.
[00:25:48.00 - 00:25:52.21] And so one day I'm doing an interview and a thought just popped into my head.
[00:25:52.21 - 00:25:54.12] I'm a software engineer.
[00:25:54.17 - 00:25:56.13] I have zero HR training.
[00:25:56.18 - 00:25:59.00] So I'm interviewing people based on what?
[00:25:59.00 - 00:26:01.07] Based on what I think an interview is like?
[00:26:01.19 - 00:26:05.16] I was almost like, that would be like me getting an HR person and saying, would you
[00:26:05.16 - 00:26:07.11] just write some code for me?
[00:26:07.11 - 00:26:10.01] Because I'm a software engineer, they'd be like, I don't know how to write code.
[00:26:10.01 - 00:26:13.09] So I was thinking then, why do you think, Jeff, I'm saying this to myself, why do
[00:26:13.09 - 00:26:15.14] you think you know how to do interviewing?
[00:26:15.14 - 00:26:19.16] You're not HR trained, just like the HR person is not trained in writing code.
[00:26:19.16 - 00:26:22.05] It's a profession, it's a skill set, right?
[00:26:22.05 - 00:26:25.00] There's research, there's data, there's best practices.
[00:26:25.00 - 00:26:26.17] All of that came to me one day.
[00:26:26.20 - 00:26:29.03] So I was like, I need to stop trying to run HR.
[00:26:29.03 - 00:26:33.18] And I finally was growing a little bit so I could hire somebody.
[00:26:34.00 - 00:26:35.03] And this was not early on.
[00:26:35.03 - 00:26:36.02] I was doing it myself.
[00:26:36.02 - 00:26:38.10] I said, I need to hire an HR professional.
[00:26:38.18 - 00:26:44.11] And I tell people this all the time, that remember what I said earlier, that the key
[00:26:44.11 - 00:26:47.17] to success is hire less people but hire rock stars.
[00:26:47.19 - 00:26:50.09] Well, rock stars don't wander into your office.
[00:26:50.19 - 00:26:54.12] And rock stars probably don't respond to job postings because most of the people
[00:26:54.12 - 00:26:57.13] responding to a job posting are people that lost their job.
[00:26:57.17 - 00:26:59.15] And so people say to me, how do you find rock stars?
[00:26:59.15 - 00:27:01.14] And the answer is you hunt for them.
[00:27:01.20 - 00:27:06.23] And so I would schedule one or two days a month where I would tell my team, don't
[00:27:06.23 - 00:27:09.20] call me, I'm not gonna be in the office today, I'm gonna go hunt for talent.
[00:27:09.20 - 00:27:11.06] So I'll tell you that story.
[00:27:11.06 - 00:27:13.19] I was like, I need a rock star HR person.
[00:27:13.22 - 00:27:18.01] And so I started calling people and saying, do you know anybody in HR?
[00:27:18.01 - 00:27:20.11] And people would give me a friend's number.
[00:27:20.12 - 00:27:23.07] And I would say, where do HR people hang out?
[00:27:23.09 - 00:27:27.01] And people kept in the United States telling me this word, SHRM.
[00:27:27.08 - 00:27:28.13] And I was like, I don't know what that is.
[00:27:28.13 - 00:27:30.10] So I looked it up.
[00:27:30.10 - 00:27:32.04] It's an acronym, not a word.
[00:27:32.04 - 00:27:35.13] It's the Society for Human Resource Managers.
[00:27:35.13 - 00:27:37.04] So I went to the website.
[00:27:37.06 - 00:27:43.08] And on the website, it said, don't forget to sign up for the annual Human Resource
[00:27:43.08 - 00:27:45.07] Executive Conference.
[00:27:45.13 - 00:27:47.08] So I signed up for the conference.
[00:27:47.08 - 00:27:49.13] And when I went to this conference, there were,
[00:27:49.13 - 00:27:53.11] like everybody had a green badge, because green means you work in HR.
[00:27:53.11 - 00:27:56.18] Mine was red, and I'm walking around, there's like a thousand people, and
[00:27:56.18 - 00:27:58.20] they're like, why is your badge red?
[00:27:58.20 - 00:28:01.17] And I said, because I don't work in HR, and they're like, then why would you come
[00:28:01.17 - 00:28:02.23] to this conference?
[00:28:03.02 - 00:28:05.02] And I said, they said, what are you doing here?
[00:28:05.02 - 00:28:09.02] And I said, well, I'm pretty much shooting fish in a barrel, because there's a
[00:28:09.02 - 00:28:12.12] thousand of you and one of me, and I need someone to do HR.
[00:28:12.13 - 00:28:15.19] And people kind of laughed, and that's how I found my HR person.
[00:28:15.19 - 00:28:19.08] I went to their conference, not my office, I didn't post a job.
[00:28:19.10 - 00:28:24.23] I started meeting people and my shortlist, when you go to a conference, who are the
[00:28:24.23 - 00:28:26.07] speakers at a conference?
[00:28:26.07 - 00:28:27.23] The industry experts.
[00:28:28.06 - 00:28:32.04] So I just circled the small number of speakers at the conference from the
[00:28:32.04 - 00:28:33.04] thousand people.
[00:28:33.04 - 00:28:35.14] And I went and found those people after they spoke.
[00:28:35.21 - 00:28:42.00] Um, and I wound up basically talking this woman, Angela, into leaving her job and
[00:28:42.00 - 00:28:45.08] coming with me by giving her equity, which she didn't have at the big company she
[00:28:45.08 - 00:28:46.04] worked for
[00:28:46.04 - 00:28:47.08] which you can give to start up.
[00:28:47.08 - 00:28:50.02] Angela ran my HR for the next four years.
[00:28:50.04 - 00:28:55.05] So I went out and hunted someone down who was really good at their job.
[00:28:55.06 - 00:28:59.13] And I had to give up some equity to get her, but the difference is the value of my
[00:28:59.13 - 00:29:03.01] company went up because she did the job way better than I did it.
[00:29:03.01 - 00:29:07.13] She increased and improved our talent acquisition and retention.
[00:29:07.14 - 00:29:11.22] Go find, hunt for talent is the story that I'm telling.
[00:29:12.06 - 00:29:19.07] And do you find there's a difference between people who think about culture
[00:29:19.07 - 00:29:21.11] versus people who think about HR?
[00:29:22.02 - 00:29:25.12] I see there's two different worlds and I don't know if you have the same view.
[00:29:26.05 - 00:29:26.14] I think they are two different
[00:29:26.14 - 00:29:29.11] worlds and they most definitely have to work together.
[00:29:29.11 - 00:29:34.21] I think what we were successful at is that we had people doing both.
[00:29:34.21 - 00:29:39.22] We had Angela and a professional HR team, but we had a culture committee at my
[00:29:39.22 - 00:29:43.20] company and Angela from HR was on the culture committee.
[00:29:44.04 - 00:29:48.08] So it wasn't a side job of HR to do culture.
[00:29:48.08 - 00:29:49.14] Culture was its own thing.
[00:29:49.14 - 00:29:52.13] We had a culture committee with volunteers from
[00:29:52.15 - 00:29:55.15] sales, from accounting, from product development.
[00:29:55.18 - 00:29:57.20] But HR was on that team too.
[00:29:57.20 - 00:30:04.08] So we made culture a company-wide responsibility that HR helped implement.
[00:30:04.08 - 00:30:05.17] I totally agree with you.
[00:30:05.21 - 00:30:08.03] What was the culture committee doing?
[00:30:08.03 - 00:30:10.12] Like, it sounds an interesting concept.
[00:30:10.12 - 00:30:12.09] What was it responsible for?
[00:30:12.14 - 00:30:19.19] Their job was to, on a regular basis, recurring basis, survey our workforce and
[00:30:19.19 - 00:30:21.14] ask them several questions.
[00:30:21.21 - 00:30:25.17] What things are we as a company doing that you don't like?
[00:30:25.23 - 00:30:32.19] Our goal is this, and I tell founders this all the time, your goal is to build the
[00:30:32.19 - 00:30:35.06] company, the environment, right?
[00:30:35.06 - 00:30:39.04] To build the place where all the best people in your industry wanna work and
[00:30:39.04 - 00:30:41.09] never wanna leave, as I said before.
[00:30:41.09 - 00:30:41.22] So...
[00:30:41.22 - 00:30:44.13] Culture committee's job was to do that.
[00:30:44.14 - 00:30:48.06] So what they would do is, well, I'll give you an example.
[00:30:48.06 - 00:30:51.17] The day I started that committee, I called all the employees in.
[00:30:52.18 - 00:30:54.06] Because here's what happened.
[00:30:54.06 - 00:30:57.00] Somebody came to me, now I had a layer of management.
[00:30:57.00 - 00:30:59.14] So everyone didn't report to me, my company's growing.
[00:30:59.14 - 00:31:01.16] Right, from 10 people, now we have 40.
[00:31:01.18 - 00:31:05.20] So I have a handful, I have a small number, four people that report to me and
[00:31:05.20 - 00:31:07.19] the rest of the 40 report to them.
[00:31:07.19 - 00:31:09.00] Now I have management.
[00:31:09.00 - 00:31:10.22] One of my managers comes in and says, Jeff,
[00:31:11.08 - 00:31:12.19] I don't want you to handle this.
[00:31:12.19 - 00:31:16.09] I'm going to handle this situation I have with one of my direct reports.
[00:31:16.10 - 00:31:20.06] One of my employees, and he said, but I'm a little unsure what to do next.
[00:31:20.06 - 00:31:21.12] And I said, so what do you need?
[00:31:21.12 - 00:31:25.19] He said, I just came in to get a copy of our employee policy manual.
[00:31:26.02 - 00:31:30.22] And I said, in what universe do you think we have an employee policy manual?
[00:31:31.03 - 00:31:34.13] And he said, well, all my other companies I've worked for, you worked for
[00:31:34.13 - 00:31:36.01] corporations before.
[00:31:36.05 - 00:31:39.03] And I said, but conceptually, your point is good.
[00:31:39.03 - 00:31:41.06] So I said, do me a favor, stop all employees
[00:31:41.08 - 00:31:43.05] and send them to the conference room.
[00:31:43.07 - 00:31:45.06] So all 40 people in the conference room.
[00:31:45.06 - 00:31:47.10] And I'll tell you what I told them to do.
[00:31:47.10 - 00:31:50.01] I said, take out a sheet of paper and draw a line down the middle.
[00:31:50.01 - 00:31:51.08] Everyone's staring at me.
[00:31:51.13 - 00:31:55.10] And I said, on the left, I want you to make the following list.
[00:31:55.10 - 00:32:02.07] I want you to write down any behavior or action that any company or manager ever
[00:32:02.07 - 00:32:06.10] did to you at any other job that made you feel disrespected.
[00:32:06.10 - 00:32:10.06] made you feel undervalued, made you hate your job, made you quit your job.
[00:32:10.08 - 00:32:15.11] Write down all the things that other companies did that you hated, you didn't
[00:32:15.11 - 00:32:17.14] like, and you felt disrespected.
[00:32:17.14 - 00:32:18.18] Write that down.
[00:32:18.19 - 00:32:23.07] I said, now on the right side, I gave them some time, I said, write the opposite.
[00:32:23.09 - 00:32:27.13] What is anything that any management you've ever worked for did that made you
[00:32:27.13 - 00:32:30.05] feel valued and respected and love your job
[00:32:30.07 - 00:32:32.23] and can't wait to come to work tomorrow?
[00:32:33.05 - 00:32:35.12] And then I gave everybody like a push pin.
[00:32:35.12 - 00:32:37.01] And they said, what is this?
[00:32:37.01 - 00:32:40.16] I said, that thing you just wrote is our new employee policy manual, stick it on
[00:32:40.16 - 00:32:41.13] the wall.
[00:32:41.17 - 00:32:43.11] And so those were all over the wall.
[00:32:43.11 - 00:32:48.03] And I said, if I ever see you do anything that you wrote down on the left side,
[00:32:48.03 - 00:32:48.19] you're out of here.
[00:32:48.19 - 00:32:50.23] You're fired, because you told me you hated it.
[00:32:50.23 - 00:32:53.04] So why would you treat anyone else that way?
[00:32:53.05 - 00:32:57.00] And I said, and at least once a month, I want you to look at the things you wrote
[00:32:57.00 - 00:33:00.13] on the right and go do that thing for some other employee.
[00:33:01.10 - 00:33:04.02] And so that was the start of a culture.
[00:33:04.02 - 00:33:06.12] How do we treat each other every day?
[00:33:06.12 - 00:33:07.20] What is okay, what is not?
[00:33:07.20 - 00:33:09.12] What do we love, what do we hate?
[00:33:09.12 - 00:33:15.05] And so our culture committee was, job was to take that a level deeper.
[00:33:15.20 - 00:33:17.18] I'll give you an example and then I'll stop.
[00:33:17.18 - 00:33:22.05] There was one of the things I noticed that I had multiple single mothers that worked
[00:33:22.05 - 00:33:22.19] for me.
[00:33:22.19 - 00:33:27.08] And one of the things they put on the left side of their paper was if they were a
[00:33:27.08 - 00:33:30.03] little stressed because they were single moms
[00:33:30.05 - 00:33:33.01] and they had to leave their child at daycare
[00:33:33.01 - 00:33:34.15] at somebody else's house.
[00:33:34.15 - 00:33:38.17] And so sometimes they would call and just check on their kid.
[00:33:38.17 - 00:33:41.07] They would call the daycare because they were a little worried about it.
[00:33:41.11 - 00:33:44.23] And their management frowned upon that.
[00:33:44.23 - 00:33:45.17] What are you doing?
[00:33:45.17 - 00:33:46.22] I'm just calling daycare.
[00:33:46.22 - 00:33:49.14] Well, we're not paying you to babysit your own child.
[00:33:49.16 - 00:33:53.14] Several of them wrote that I'm stressed out because I feel like I'm committing a
[00:33:53.14 - 00:33:59.02] crime when I'm checking on my kid in daycare, but I can't fully function until
[00:33:59.02 - 00:34:00.15] I know my child's okay.
[00:34:00.15 - 00:34:01.05] So.
[00:34:01.05 - 00:34:03.03] That was one of our culture things.
[00:34:03.03 - 00:34:06.19] And the culture committee came back and they said, Jeff, we want to set up a
[00:34:06.19 - 00:34:07.18] long-term goal.
[00:34:07.18 - 00:34:08.06] I said, what?
[00:34:08.06 - 00:34:14.05] And they said, we want to add a room, like take a conference room and turn it into a
[00:34:14.05 - 00:34:20.09] daycare center and hire people in the building and let our single moms have a
[00:34:20.09 - 00:34:24.02] daycare center in this building where their kids are that when they need a
[00:34:24.02 - 00:34:27.00] little break or at lunch, they can go check on their kids and see them.
[00:34:27.03 - 00:34:28.07] And they said,
[00:34:28.07 - 00:34:32.00] that would make people love this place even that much more.
[00:34:32.00 - 00:34:33.16] And so we set that as a goal.
[00:34:33.16 - 00:34:36.11] And we set aside money every time we got paid as a company.
[00:34:36.11 - 00:34:38.05] A little bit of money went into the daycare
[00:34:38.07 - 00:34:39.23] fund until we built the daycare center.
[00:34:39.23 - 00:34:43.21] The culture committee came up with that idea by talking to the employees and
[00:34:43.21 - 00:34:46.09] saying, what would make this an even better place to work?
[00:34:46.15 - 00:34:53.06] Another similar idea I've heard is asking staff to come up with cool behaviors and
[00:34:53.06 - 00:34:59.18] the not cool behaviors and creating lists of those and stating those as the value of
[00:34:59.18 - 00:35:00.18] the company.
[00:35:00.18 - 00:35:05.19] Yep, I did that just kind of on the fly as well.
[00:35:06.15 - 00:35:08.05] But it worked.
[00:35:08.13 - 00:35:13.04] So now you spend a lot of your time, if not most of your time, coaching and
[00:35:13.04 - 00:35:14.17] mentoring entrepreneurs.
[00:35:15.04 - 00:35:20.04] How would you mentor someone or help someone build a culture?
[00:35:20.04 - 00:35:24.13] How would you guide them to build a strong culture?
[00:35:25.08 - 00:35:26.10] Two ways.
[00:35:26.16 - 00:35:33.06] One is I would tell them to research best practices, right?
[00:35:33.06 - 00:35:37.20] Ask around companies that have, you know, companies that have the lowest turnover,
[00:35:37.20 - 00:35:40.04] companies that have the highest employees.
[00:35:40.04 - 00:35:46.17] For example, in the U.S., there is the Forbes list of best companies to work for,
[00:35:46.17 - 00:35:48.07] as voted by employees.
[00:35:48.09 - 00:35:52.00] One of the CEOs that I was mentoring, his company
[00:35:52.01 - 00:35:54.06] wound up becoming, winning...
[00:35:54.06 - 00:35:56.04] We did everything I just talked you through,
[00:35:56.06 - 00:35:58.02] but I did that with him and his company.
[00:35:58.02 - 00:36:01.11] They wound up becoming one of the... getting
[00:36:01.13 - 00:36:04.17] rated one of the best companies to work for in
[00:36:04.17 - 00:36:05.20] their state.
[00:36:05.20 - 00:36:09.02] And then later they made them the Forbes list, the national list of best companies
[00:36:09.02 - 00:36:10.17] in this whole country to work for.
[00:36:10.17 - 00:36:14.05] So I would tell people, you can look at that list and you could have emailed him
[00:36:14.05 - 00:36:16.20] and said, what exactly did you do?
[00:36:17.00 - 00:36:20.05] And he would tell you, we started with no culture and here's how we built one.
[00:36:20.05 - 00:36:24.05] He would share the best practices that got him voted one of the best
[00:36:24.05 - 00:36:27.19] companies in the entire country to work for, by employees.
[00:36:27.20 - 00:36:30.03] So best practices is one thing.
[00:36:30.06 - 00:36:34.16] Find out who's doing it well and ask them how did they do that?
[00:36:34.16 - 00:36:37.06] And then the second one is what we just discussed.
[00:36:38.03 - 00:36:39.12] Ask your employees straight up.
[00:36:39.12 - 00:36:40.19] What do you like about working here?
[00:36:40.19 - 00:36:42.05] What do you like about working anywhere?
[00:36:42.05 - 00:36:43.12] What do you not like?
[00:36:43.17 - 00:36:44.19] And make that list.
[00:36:44.19 - 00:36:47.01] Well, I was amazed when I asked employees.
[00:36:47.07 - 00:36:50.09] They said, can you give me a minute because no company I've worked for has
[00:36:50.09 - 00:36:52.00] ever asked me that before.
[00:36:52.05 - 00:36:52.20] And I was like, what?
[00:36:52.20 - 00:36:56.00] And they said, I've never been in a company where management said, how do I
[00:36:56.00 - 00:36:58.04] make this the best place you've ever worked?
[00:36:58.09 - 00:37:00.13] So they said, let me think about it because I've never been asked that
[00:37:00.13 - 00:37:01.15] question before.
[00:37:01.15 - 00:37:04.10] And I realized not that I had that many jobs, but I never had.
[00:37:04.10 - 00:37:08.05] I never had the owners of the company come to me and say, we want you to love working
[00:37:08.05 - 00:37:08.15] for us.
[00:37:08.15 - 00:37:09.22] What do we have to do?
[00:37:10.03 - 00:37:13.19] So when I asked that, people said, I need time to think about it.
[00:37:14.11 - 00:37:15.14] Ask your employees.
[00:37:15.16 - 00:37:21.06] If you could help leaders who are not intentional about their culture, how to
[00:37:21.06 - 00:37:23.02] rethink about culture?
[00:37:23.17 - 00:37:25.01] What would you tell them?
[00:37:25.11 - 00:37:28.07] Why is culture important?
[00:37:28.07 - 00:37:35.09] I mean, you talked about the superstars, but why, you know, besides that, why is
[00:37:35.09 - 00:37:36.14] culture important?
[00:37:36.14 - 00:37:39.22] Why do we need to care about people in our business?
[00:37:39.23 - 00:37:44.04] Because it reflects on your entire brand.
[00:37:44.08 - 00:37:50.05] One of the cultural things we had was people before profits, right?
[00:37:50.05 - 00:37:54.06] People talk about that a lot now, but we did that long before that was long ago.
[00:37:55.08 - 00:38:00.20] And we had situations where we made mistakes in business, violated a contract,
[00:38:00.20 - 00:38:02.01] this is a real story.
[00:38:02.01 - 00:38:06.11] Customer called us and said, you violated the contract and technically you just lost
[00:38:06.11 - 00:38:10.05] our business and we have to cancel our contract.
[00:38:10.05 - 00:38:14.12] And they said, but my, this was a CFO.
[00:38:14.12 - 00:38:20.15] He said, all my employees tell me that none of our vendors treat us the way you
[00:38:20.15 - 00:38:21.15] guys do.
[00:38:21.17 - 00:38:26.19] Your human focus and the way you take care of us and talk to us and listen to us is
[00:38:26.19 - 00:38:31.14] so much hands and shoulders, head and shoulders above everybody else out there
[00:38:31.14 - 00:38:35.11] that even though you violated the contract, we're not only not gonna cancel
[00:38:35.11 - 00:38:38.04] it, but we wanna renew the contract for three more years.
[00:38:38.07 - 00:38:39.11] And I said, wait a minute.
[00:38:39.11 - 00:38:42.05] How did I make a mistake and get a new contract?
[00:38:42.07 - 00:38:46.04] And he said, because the mistake caused us to have a committee meeting.
[00:38:46.04 - 00:38:48.03] And in the committee, it was the first time
[00:38:48.05 - 00:38:50.04] I said, what do you think of Jeff's company?
[00:38:50.04 - 00:38:57.10] And he said, I was blown away by all the stories of your employees focusing on us
[00:38:57.12 - 00:38:59.19] as people before profits.
[00:38:59.19 - 00:39:04.04] Times that he said, people told stories of times that we as the customer were wrong,
[00:39:04.04 - 00:39:07.18] and your people knew we were wrong and told us we were wrong, but you still
[00:39:07.18 - 00:39:08.23] refunded our money
[00:39:08.23 - 00:39:10.08] or whatever it was.
[00:39:10.09 - 00:39:13.11] And he said, when I heard all these stories of the way you run your business
[00:39:13.11 - 00:39:17.05] and the way you've been treating my employees, my employees were like, please
[00:39:17.05 - 00:39:19.15] never get rid of that company as a vendor.
[00:39:19.19 - 00:39:26.05] And so that's why it's a glow, it glows positively or negatively on your brand.
[00:39:26.07 - 00:39:31.22] And some of the customers that reached out to me said, I heard from this company that
[00:39:31.22 - 00:39:35.02] I just told you about, he said, we heard them talking about you guys.
[00:39:35.02 - 00:39:38.17] So you don't, we didn't even, you didn't even send us a proposal.
[00:39:38.17 - 00:39:42.22] We've just heard so many good stories about your company that we'd like to sign
[00:39:42.22 - 00:39:43.23] a deal with you.
[00:39:44.10 - 00:39:46.19] So that's the other reason to care about culture.
[00:39:46.19 - 00:39:51.18] Besides attracting people, it creates a personality for your brand that resonates
[00:39:51.18 - 00:39:52.15] in the market.
[00:39:52.23 - 00:39:56.20] And as we close, Jeff, what are some of the things you're really passionate about
[00:39:56.20 - 00:39:59.21] today and how can people learn more about you?
[00:39:59.23 - 00:40:07.03] Um, today, uh, I am, uh, my, my single biggest focus is youth.
[00:40:07.11 - 00:40:12.21] Just came back from an event we held in Europe, um, where, uh, we have teenagers
[00:40:12.21 - 00:40:17.18] around the world and creative kids that are not heroes cause they're not athletes.
[00:40:17.18 - 00:40:17.22] Right?
[00:40:17.22 - 00:40:21.21] In school, the sports star, the football player is the star.
[00:40:22.02 - 00:40:25.21] And we wanted to create a similar opportunity for creative kids.
[00:40:25.21 - 00:40:29.02] So, um, this thing is called Junk Kouture.
[00:40:29.09 - 00:40:34.08] And they compete, kids from around the world compete live on stage.
[00:40:34.10 - 00:40:38.18] And they have to make clothing out of trash and dress a model in it.
[00:40:38.19 - 00:40:41.03] And we just came back from the world finals of that.
[00:40:41.03 - 00:40:45.16] And I spent time with all the teenagers, the kids from around the world that made
[00:40:45.16 - 00:40:46.18] the finals.
[00:40:47.10 - 00:40:52.06] To see these creative kids have a chance to be themselves and not feel like misfits
[00:40:52.06 - 00:40:56.00] and be the stars on the stage, not the football players, was absolutely a
[00:40:56.00 - 00:40:57.02] phenomenal experience.
[00:40:57.02 - 00:40:58.06] So for me-
[00:40:58.07 - 00:41:02.08] I spend most of my personal time now working with youth and trying to convince
[00:41:02.08 - 00:41:07.02] them to go pursue their own passions and to design their own path in life, not take
[00:41:07.02 - 00:41:09.07] the one everyone's telling them they have to take.
[00:41:09.14 - 00:41:13.15] Youth is my source of energy these days.
[00:41:14.21 - 00:41:17.05] LinkedIn, I'm on LinkedIn a lot.
[00:41:17.05 - 00:41:21.01] My Instagram is speakerjeffhoffman.
[00:41:21.08 - 00:41:26.22] I have a website, jeffhoffman.com, which has my contact info, but I would say...
[00:41:26.22 - 00:41:29.05] LinkedIn, there's a lot of Jeff Hoffmans.
[00:41:29.06 - 00:41:33.13] So the way to find me is just type Jeff Hoffman Priceline, and then it goes
[00:41:33.13 - 00:41:35.03] directly to my profile.
[00:41:35.09 - 00:41:39.04] But I love hearing from people and hearing stories of things out there that work so
[00:41:39.04 - 00:41:43.22] that people like you and I can continue to share whatever we've learned that helps
[00:41:43.22 - 00:41:44.22] other people.
[00:41:45.07 - 00:41:46.14] Feel free to reach out.
[00:41:46.18 - 00:41:52.05] And any parting thoughts or any book or anything you'd like to recommend,
[00:41:52.05 - 00:41:55.15] something to take away as a recommendation?
[00:41:55.16 - 00:42:01.17] Um, wow, I am not prepared to answer with a book because the books that I've been
[00:42:01.17 - 00:42:03.23] reading lately aren't really relevant to
[00:42:04.01 - 00:42:06.12] culture, which is your topic, but I still...
[00:42:06.12 - 00:42:12.20] No, anything, I mean, anything that's true to heart, whatever it is, whatever you
[00:42:14.00 - 00:42:18.13] felt warm and fuzzy about.
[00:42:19.07 - 00:42:25.07] I think I'm going to stick with the same topic which is youth.
[00:42:25.10 - 00:42:29.14] Giving a voice to youth, right, because the difference is they don't know what's
[00:42:29.14 - 00:42:33.20] possible or what's not, so they will suggest things that your team never would.
[00:42:34.03 - 00:42:38.02] Spending more time talking to young people who say, how about we do this?
[00:42:38.02 - 00:42:41.12] Your employee won't say that because they know budget-wise we can't afford to do it,
[00:42:41.12 - 00:42:43.08] but it might have been a brilliant idea.
[00:42:43.13 - 00:42:48.08] So I love listening to the creativity of young people and asking them crazy
[00:42:48.08 - 00:42:52.07] questions because they'll just answer unfiltered because they don't know.
[00:42:52.07 - 00:42:55.05] They don't know what's doable and what's not.
[00:42:55.05 - 00:42:59.14] People that filter their thought process, when you get your employees and say, let's
[00:42:59.14 - 00:43:03.03] brainstorm, they're not really brainstorming because they don't say stuff
[00:43:03.03 - 00:43:04.04] that might sound stupid.
[00:43:04.04 - 00:43:07.02] They don't say stuff that might sound like it's criticizing you.
[00:43:07.02 - 00:43:09.16] They don't say stuff that might be too expensive.
[00:43:09.18 - 00:43:14.20] Youth that have not been jaded by the world, they just let the crazy fly.
[00:43:14.20 - 00:43:19.10] So a lot of times we even propose some of our business problems.
[00:43:19.10 - 00:43:21.21] And we ask young people, what would you do if you were me?
[00:43:21.21 - 00:43:25.03] Nine out of 10 of their ideas are crazy and can never be done.
[00:43:25.03 - 00:43:28.18] But because they're unfiltered, the 10th one is brilliant.
[00:43:28.18 - 00:43:34.15] So spend some time around young people, asking them questions about your business
[00:43:34.15 - 00:43:37.08] and your industry and actually listen to what they say.
[00:43:37.12 - 00:43:41.19] They're the only people who have a beginner's mind without even trying, I
[00:43:41.19 - 00:43:42.07] would add.
[00:43:42.07 - 00:43:45.19] Yup exactly. Thank you so much for having me today.
[00:43:46.07 - 00:43:49.06] Thank you, Jeff, and thank you for the stories.
[00:43:49.06 - 00:43:54.23] I've never heard so many stories in one podcast, but very, very illustrative.
[00:43:54.23 - 00:43:56.03] Thank you for that.
[00:43:56.05 - 00:43:58.00] And thank you to those who listen to us.
[00:43:58.00 - 00:44:01.22] If you like the show, you can support us by telling your friends or you can leave a
[00:44:01.22 - 00:44:04.22] comment on your favorite podcast app.
[00:44:05.05 - 00:44:09.03] And if you prefer to watch and not just listen, you can subscribe and watch us
[00:44:09.03 - 00:44:14.07] live on YouTube at youtube.com\{rethinkculture.
[00:44:14.09 - 00:44:18.09] That's the { sign, rethink culture.
[00:44:18.17 - 00:44:21.17] And keep on creating a happier, healthier
[00:44:21.19 - 00:44:25.09] workplace for those around you and keep leading.
[00:44:25.09 - 00:44:26.04] Thank you.