1 00:00:05,371 --> 00:00:07,631 Good morning grid connections listeners. 2 00:00:07,791 --> 00:00:11,211 And for those of you who may be listening for the first time, this is the grid 3 00:00:11,211 --> 00:00:12,511 connections podcast. 4 00:00:12,511 --> 00:00:16,691 This is the show where we unravel the complexities of electric transportation, 5 00:00:16,691 --> 00:00:21,151 renewable energy, and our electrical power grid that ties all of them together. 6 00:00:21,271 --> 00:00:22,221 I'm your host Chase. 7 00:00:22,221 --> 00:00:25,541 And today we have a special guest joining us, Jason Goldfarb. 8 00:00:25,541 --> 00:00:29,481 He's a partner at the law firm, Falcon, Rappaport and Berkman. 9 00:00:29,595 --> 00:00:33,075 I think I already know what you're wondering, because usually we're speaking 10 00:00:33,075 --> 00:00:37,655 with engineers or maybe people in the automotive or renewable energy industry. 11 00:00:37,935 --> 00:00:39,635 And well, Jason actually is. 12 00:00:39,635 --> 00:00:43,935 He has a very interesting, unique skillset coming from actually the real estate and 13 00:00:43,935 --> 00:00:45,675 the telecom industry. 14 00:00:45,895 --> 00:00:49,585 Believe it or not, this is actually all seriously needed in the electric vehicle 15 00:00:49,585 --> 00:00:51,335 charging infrastructure space. 16 00:00:51,335 --> 00:00:55,665 And today we speak with him about what he's doing to help people who are building 17 00:00:55,665 --> 00:00:59,847 new facilities and charging locations really maximize the potential. 18 00:01:00,539 --> 00:01:03,979 He shares his insights on the latest trends, challenges, and innovation shaping 19 00:01:03,979 --> 00:01:08,649 the future of grid connectivity, including from the integration of renewable energy 20 00:01:08,649 --> 00:01:11,559 sources to the electric vehicle charging landscape. 21 00:01:11,559 --> 00:01:15,079 We'll delve into the critical issues and what can be done to simplify and help 22 00:01:15,079 --> 00:01:19,359 guarantee much more consistent and longer lasting charging hubs. 23 00:01:19,359 --> 00:01:23,379 You can find more details on Jason and his law firm with links in today's show notes 24 00:01:23,379 --> 00:01:24,499 as well. 25 00:01:24,499 --> 00:01:28,219 But before we dive in, we have a special request for our listeners. 26 00:01:28,219 --> 00:01:32,369 If you find this episode or any Grid Connections podcast episode enlightening 27 00:01:32,369 --> 00:01:35,939 and thought provoking, we encourage you to share it with at least one other person 28 00:01:35,939 --> 00:01:39,499 you believe would enjoy and benefit from our conversation. 29 00:01:39,499 --> 00:01:42,849 Together, let's spread the knowledge and foster a community of engaged listeners 30 00:01:42,849 --> 00:01:47,039 passionate about the energy revolution and clean transportation. 31 00:01:47,379 --> 00:01:52,419 So without further ado, this is the Grid Connections podcast with Jason Goldfarb. 32 00:01:52,419 --> 00:01:53,311 Enjoy. 33 00:01:54,102 --> 00:01:54,622 Thank you. 34 00:01:54,622 --> 00:01:55,742 It's my pleasure to be here. 35 00:01:55,742 --> 00:01:56,982 Really appreciate it. 36 00:01:56,982 --> 00:01:59,403 I'm happy to be on the podcast. 37 00:01:59,503 --> 00:02:02,244 So I'll tell you a little bit about my background. 38 00:02:02,244 --> 00:02:08,226 So for almost the last 25 years or so, I've been involved in the real estate 39 00:02:08,226 --> 00:02:10,146 infrastructure space. 40 00:02:10,246 --> 00:02:14,727 I got my start in the wireless telecommunications industry. 41 00:02:15,888 --> 00:02:21,429 And I've been doing that work, whether it relates to things like... 42 00:02:21,678 --> 00:02:25,980 cell phone towers and rooftop installations for the cell phone business. 43 00:02:25,980 --> 00:02:28,862 I've worked for a couple of different companies that also invested in the 44 00:02:28,862 --> 00:02:30,663 infrastructure as well. 45 00:02:30,663 --> 00:02:35,645 So in addition to working in the wireless telecommunication space, I've also had 46 00:02:35,645 --> 00:02:43,710 experience with outdoor advertising, solar, wind, other things like that. 47 00:02:43,710 --> 00:02:49,493 And in terms of getting into the EV charging space, our firm decided not too 48 00:02:49,493 --> 00:02:50,813 long ago and 49 00:02:51,270 --> 00:02:57,311 a push from me, frankly, that the EV infrastructure space might be a good 50 00:02:57,311 --> 00:03:01,472 practice area to try and get into. 51 00:03:01,472 --> 00:03:06,093 I've always been into cars since the day I came out of the womb. 52 00:03:06,093 --> 00:03:08,894 You can tell by the poster I've got going in the background here. 53 00:03:08,894 --> 00:03:10,895 So I've always been really into that. 54 00:03:11,455 --> 00:03:12,775 Always been into real estate. 55 00:03:12,775 --> 00:03:17,176 As an attorney, I've always focused my practice on the transactional 56 00:03:21,110 --> 00:03:25,392 to what you would call the regular infrastructure industry to what's going on 57 00:03:25,392 --> 00:03:28,614 right now in the EV infrastructure industry. 58 00:03:28,614 --> 00:03:32,636 And so making that switch was sort of natural. 59 00:03:32,856 --> 00:03:38,279 Still doing some work on the telecom side of things and with solar and without the 60 00:03:38,279 --> 00:03:44,082 advertising, but the EV infrastructure space is really so much more interesting. 61 00:03:44,263 --> 00:03:49,494 And there are so many opportunities for business, for improvement. 62 00:03:49,494 --> 00:03:52,035 for education and so on and so forth. 63 00:03:52,035 --> 00:04:00,642 So, we decided to go in full speed ahead and to use the non-electric version of 64 00:04:00,642 --> 00:04:05,065 this, but basically we've been firing on all 12 cylinders, going really head first 65 00:04:05,065 --> 00:04:05,965 into this. 66 00:04:07,592 --> 00:04:09,853 Yeah, and I appreciate you kind of sharing that with everyone. 67 00:04:09,853 --> 00:04:14,676 I think what's really interesting is just for more context, we originally connected 68 00:04:14,676 --> 00:04:15,376 on LinkedIn. 69 00:04:15,376 --> 00:04:16,737 That's how I kind of came across you. 70 00:04:16,737 --> 00:04:21,379 And I'd even seen some of your posts and other things, I guess, in just similar 71 00:04:21,379 --> 00:04:22,420 spheres. 72 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:27,503 But when we started talking, I think what was interesting, and I kind of had already 73 00:04:27,503 --> 00:04:32,346 known this, but didn't really fully appreciate it, was how while the 74 00:04:32,346 --> 00:04:35,827 technology that may be going in the ground is new, 75 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,502 or even not new, just different. 76 00:04:38,742 --> 00:04:43,627 The actual implementation is very similar to things that have already been around, 77 00:04:43,627 --> 00:04:46,470 especially in the real estate space for quite a while. 78 00:04:47,051 --> 00:04:52,216 So could you share a little bit about that and maybe just some of the challenges that 79 00:04:52,216 --> 00:04:56,059 for those who are new to the space might not have been expecting. 80 00:04:56,370 --> 00:05:01,452 Right, so that's totally on point and very insightful. 81 00:05:01,452 --> 00:05:02,593 I mean that in a really good way. 82 00:05:02,593 --> 00:05:07,196 That's something actually that a lot of people do not necessarily pick up on. 83 00:05:07,196 --> 00:05:14,640 So if you were to look back through history with the way that the wireless 84 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:21,004 telecommunications industry was 20 or 25 years ago, and you would see that the way 85 00:05:21,004 --> 00:05:24,465 things were done then and how things are being done now. 86 00:05:24,574 --> 00:05:27,977 and you would look at the EV infrastructure industry and see the way 87 00:05:27,977 --> 00:05:38,506 that things are being done now and put on your time travel lens and see how things 88 00:05:38,506 --> 00:05:43,070 might look in about 20 or 25 years from now, I bet you you're going to see a ton 89 00:05:43,070 --> 00:05:44,311 of similarities. 90 00:05:44,311 --> 00:05:47,894 So in that respect, I'll give you a couple of examples. 91 00:05:47,894 --> 00:05:51,937 So when the wireless industry first got started, 92 00:05:52,698 --> 00:05:59,164 you had a situation where towers and building installations were pretty much 93 00:05:59,164 --> 00:06:04,329 put just about anywhere where you would find somebody who might be willing to have 94 00:06:04,329 --> 00:06:06,651 that infrastructure on their property. 95 00:06:06,791 --> 00:06:12,096 That's almost about as far as people went with trying to figure out where to put it. 96 00:06:12,196 --> 00:06:15,079 They didn't necessarily have the data and the analytics yet. 97 00:06:15,079 --> 00:06:17,738 They didn't have a massive customer base yet. 98 00:06:17,738 --> 00:06:21,360 But they started to think, oh, it might make sense that in this particular city or 99 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:25,802 in this particular location, we might need to put equipment down. 100 00:06:25,823 --> 00:06:26,623 And they did that. 101 00:06:26,623 --> 00:06:29,985 And unfortunately, a lot of times when they did that, they did not necessarily do 102 00:06:29,985 --> 00:06:31,046 their homework. 103 00:06:31,046 --> 00:06:34,068 They did not necessarily do their due diligence. 104 00:06:34,068 --> 00:06:38,490 They didn't always pick the most ideal locations for the equipment. 105 00:06:38,611 --> 00:06:42,613 They didn't realize that in some of the places where they chose to put the 106 00:06:42,613 --> 00:06:43,626 equipment, they 107 00:06:43,626 --> 00:06:48,467 that they might run into issues with access or with maintenance. 108 00:06:49,007 --> 00:06:53,428 None of those things kind of like went into the thought process. 109 00:06:53,428 --> 00:06:58,850 And at some point in time, the wireless telecommunications industry really started 110 00:06:58,850 --> 00:07:03,411 to realize not doing these things created some problems. 111 00:07:03,411 --> 00:07:05,452 So I'll give you a hypothetical example. 112 00:07:05,452 --> 00:07:09,513 Hypothetically, if you entered into a contract with somebody that didn't have 113 00:07:09,513 --> 00:07:11,653 the authority to sign the contract, 114 00:07:11,986 --> 00:07:16,509 or let's say you entered into a contract with someone that didn't actually own the 115 00:07:16,509 --> 00:07:18,711 property where you were putting the equipment. 116 00:07:18,771 --> 00:07:21,213 By the way, I'm giving you real world examples. 117 00:07:21,497 --> 00:07:23,761 you say the way you said hypothetical. 118 00:07:23,761 --> 00:07:28,388 I kind of feel like you're saying how they say in the old like cop shows the names 119 00:07:28,388 --> 00:07:30,731 have been changed to protect the innocent or what? 120 00:07:31,033 --> 00:07:32,930 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 121 00:07:32,930 --> 00:07:33,270 names. 122 00:07:33,270 --> 00:07:35,191 Yeah, we're definitely not going to do that. 123 00:07:35,271 --> 00:07:40,012 But so if you didn't do those things, or I'll give you another example. 124 00:07:40,012 --> 00:07:46,254 Let's say that you didn't do a title search and discover that there might be 125 00:07:46,254 --> 00:07:50,835 some issues with the property where you were going to put the equipment down, or 126 00:07:50,835 --> 00:07:54,296 you didn't get a set of corporate documents from the person who signed the 127 00:07:54,296 --> 00:07:58,857 documents to make sure that they had the authority to sign those documents. 128 00:07:59,050 --> 00:08:05,212 Or I'll give you one other example, or let's say you didn't do a survey to figure 129 00:08:05,212 --> 00:08:10,354 out where your land and where your property is located, because let's just 130 00:08:10,354 --> 00:08:17,017 say that the survey, if you had done it, may have given you an inkling that perhaps 131 00:08:17,017 --> 00:08:21,339 the piece of property you chose for the tower might be legally landlocked. 132 00:08:21,499 --> 00:08:25,841 So leaving aside practical issues as to whether or not you could get a truck in 133 00:08:25,841 --> 00:08:27,142 there for maintenance. 134 00:08:27,142 --> 00:08:30,703 If you were legally landlocked and your neighbors decided that they didn't like 135 00:08:30,703 --> 00:08:35,625 you and decided to put up a fence, how are you getting to your tower? 136 00:08:35,625 --> 00:08:37,246 The answer is you're not. 137 00:08:37,246 --> 00:08:41,608 And what's your recourse? 138 00:08:41,608 --> 00:08:43,708 And the answer is you have not. 139 00:08:44,289 --> 00:08:49,451 So what happened was that the telecommunications industry as a whole 140 00:08:49,451 --> 00:08:54,153 started to realize that we made some mistakes, at least by deploying the 141 00:08:54,153 --> 00:08:55,753 infrastructure that way. 142 00:08:55,774 --> 00:08:58,555 without looking into that stuff. 143 00:08:58,996 --> 00:09:03,940 I am seeing that kind of stuff happen left and right now in the EV infrastructure 144 00:09:03,940 --> 00:09:05,000 industry. 145 00:09:05,301 --> 00:09:09,284 And it's being driven by a whole bunch of things. 146 00:09:09,284 --> 00:09:13,207 I think in terms of not doing the due diligence and not doing the homework 147 00:09:13,207 --> 00:09:19,472 piece, people are cheap and they don't wanna spend the money to do it. 148 00:09:19,892 --> 00:09:21,553 But it's sort of... 149 00:09:22,442 --> 00:09:28,406 similar to not wanting to buy a health insurance policy if you're an otherwise 150 00:09:28,406 --> 00:09:29,707 healthy person. 151 00:09:29,747 --> 00:09:32,269 Because if you're a healthy person, you don't really need health insurance. 152 00:09:32,269 --> 00:09:33,510 What do you need it for? 153 00:09:33,510 --> 00:09:35,131 How often are you gonna get sick? 154 00:09:35,212 --> 00:09:39,615 But when you do get sick, now you have the policy, and you know what happens if you 155 00:09:39,615 --> 00:09:42,097 don't have the insurance policy, now you end up with a bill with hundreds of 156 00:09:42,097 --> 00:09:44,179 thousands of dollars. 157 00:09:44,179 --> 00:09:47,842 So people aren't thinking about it that way until they really need it, and then 158 00:09:47,842 --> 00:09:52,345 they kind of have that light bulb moment and they say, oh boy. 159 00:09:52,370 --> 00:09:54,131 What did we just do here? 160 00:09:54,131 --> 00:09:57,573 I'm starting to see a lot of that and I'm trying to prevent people from doing that. 161 00:09:57,573 --> 00:10:01,134 I'm trying to prevent my clients from making some of those mistakes. 162 00:10:01,395 --> 00:10:06,878 Some of those basic things are really severely lacking and that's part of why 163 00:10:06,878 --> 00:10:09,980 you are seeing so much trouble. 164 00:10:09,980 --> 00:10:11,100 I'll give you another example. 165 00:10:11,100 --> 00:10:14,903 I think another reason why we're running into problems that in terms of... 166 00:10:14,903 --> 00:10:18,565 Let's just say right now, again, hypothetically, we didn't have those 167 00:10:18,565 --> 00:10:20,366 problems that I just mentioned. 168 00:10:20,426 --> 00:10:24,107 Let's just say that they did their homework and so they did a title search 169 00:10:24,107 --> 00:10:28,468 and they did a survey and they asked for the corporate documents and they made sure 170 00:10:28,468 --> 00:10:31,929 everybody had authority to sign everything so you had none of those problems. 171 00:10:33,230 --> 00:10:37,951 But now you have an issue where you put your charging in and now it needs to be 172 00:10:37,951 --> 00:10:43,453 maintained or it breaks and you don't have any language in the contract that covers 173 00:10:43,453 --> 00:10:46,073 who is supposed to be responsible for that. 174 00:10:46,182 --> 00:10:50,183 Or if you do have language in the contract that says who's supposed to be responsible 175 00:10:50,183 --> 00:10:52,823 for it, there's no teeth to it. 176 00:10:53,083 --> 00:10:58,585 So there is no incentive to be accountable because nothing bad will happen to you. 177 00:10:58,585 --> 00:11:03,166 The easiest example I can give is that if you're supposed to pay rent by the first 178 00:11:03,166 --> 00:11:07,147 of the month and you don't pay it, what happens? 179 00:11:07,147 --> 00:11:10,068 Unless you have something in the contract that says you're in trouble for not paying 180 00:11:10,068 --> 00:11:12,649 on the first of the month, nothing happens, right? 181 00:11:12,649 --> 00:11:15,949 And if all the contract says is you're bad, 182 00:11:16,242 --> 00:11:17,382 What happens? 183 00:11:17,382 --> 00:11:18,523 Still nothing. 184 00:11:18,623 --> 00:11:23,586 If it says you have to pay it by the fifth, what happens? 185 00:11:24,246 --> 00:11:27,208 You can pay it by the fifth, but there's no penalty if you don't pay it by the 186 00:11:27,208 --> 00:11:28,028 fifth. 187 00:11:28,409 --> 00:11:30,029 Are you going to pay it by the fifth? 188 00:11:30,150 --> 00:11:32,531 Sometimes, but probably not. 189 00:11:32,811 --> 00:11:33,471 Right? 190 00:11:33,792 --> 00:11:34,952 Why do you need to? 191 00:11:35,093 --> 00:11:39,895 So we're starting to see those kinds of problems in some of the contracts also, 192 00:11:39,996 --> 00:11:43,590 where you have language that should be in there that's missing. 193 00:11:43,590 --> 00:11:46,652 It doesn't say who's responsible for maintenance or if it says who's 194 00:11:46,652 --> 00:11:51,475 responsible for maintenance, it doesn't say how quickly they have to roll a truck. 195 00:11:51,475 --> 00:11:55,918 It doesn't say within what time frame that they're obligated to provide spare parts. 196 00:11:55,918 --> 00:11:59,881 It doesn't say what they're supposed to do if people need to get on the phone and 197 00:11:59,881 --> 00:12:01,542 call somebody. 198 00:12:01,542 --> 00:12:03,323 It has none of that stuff in there. 199 00:12:03,323 --> 00:12:06,705 So if the contract is missing some of those things and then let's say you have a 200 00:12:06,705 --> 00:12:11,008 charger in the ground that's broken and it's not being fixed and you have no 201 00:12:11,008 --> 00:12:12,109 number where you're 202 00:12:13,214 --> 00:12:16,375 or even if you have a number where you're supposed to call somebody, there is no 203 00:12:16,375 --> 00:12:19,575 metric or timeframe within which they're supposed to respond. 204 00:12:19,636 --> 00:12:23,937 And then even if there is that timeframe or that metric that you use to determine 205 00:12:23,937 --> 00:12:28,398 when they're supposed to respond, if there's no penalty if they don't respond 206 00:12:28,398 --> 00:12:32,659 in time, then you get the mess that we have. 207 00:12:32,860 --> 00:12:35,060 And so we're starting to see a lot of those things. 208 00:12:35,060 --> 00:12:38,861 So on a positive note, I think... 209 00:12:38,994 --> 00:12:43,017 What started to happen way back when in the wireless industry is they begun to 210 00:12:43,017 --> 00:12:46,460 realize that we need to clean up our contracts because we need to have 211 00:12:46,460 --> 00:12:48,201 appropriate language in there. 212 00:12:48,201 --> 00:12:52,164 We need to have some teeth to some of the penalties. 213 00:12:52,164 --> 00:12:55,107 We need to incentivize accountability. 214 00:12:55,107 --> 00:13:01,632 We have to lay out so that way it's clear for everybody who is responsible for what. 215 00:13:01,692 --> 00:13:05,415 We have to make sure that we do our due diligence and we do our homework. 216 00:13:05,415 --> 00:13:08,742 So that way we make sure that we're putting the assets. 217 00:13:08,742 --> 00:13:14,266 in a safe place to begin with, in addition to all the other stuff that we have to do. 218 00:13:14,287 --> 00:13:20,753 As that stuff starts to happen, the business and the industry starts to mature 219 00:13:20,753 --> 00:13:22,615 and it starts to improve. 220 00:13:22,615 --> 00:13:28,921 If you think about right now, what was your cell phone like 20 or 25 years ago? 221 00:13:28,921 --> 00:13:30,282 We know the answer. 222 00:13:30,502 --> 00:13:32,444 It was a service with Spotty. 223 00:13:32,444 --> 00:13:33,690 You couldn't take... 224 00:13:33,690 --> 00:13:34,772 a lot longer. 225 00:13:35,716 --> 00:13:36,959 That was about the only pro. 226 00:13:36,959 --> 00:13:37,981 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 227 00:13:38,183 --> 00:13:40,097 Yeah, right. 228 00:13:40,097 --> 00:13:43,520 all these apps that were just sucking energy out of the phones. 229 00:13:43,580 --> 00:13:47,163 But the service was spotty, it wasn't so great. 230 00:13:47,163 --> 00:13:51,046 You couldn't go from one network to the other, right? 231 00:13:51,046 --> 00:13:54,008 The equipment kind of worked, didn't always work. 232 00:13:54,008 --> 00:13:57,892 You had frequently, you had outages and you had all sorts of problems. 233 00:13:57,892 --> 00:14:01,555 But right now, you pick up your phone, it works. 234 00:14:01,555 --> 00:14:05,458 You make a phone call, you can talk to somebody across the world, it works. 235 00:14:05,458 --> 00:14:09,720 If you have a problem with it, you know what you do. 236 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,562 You call customer service and for the most part, they're going to be able to solve 237 00:14:13,562 --> 00:14:14,202 your problem. 238 00:14:14,202 --> 00:14:16,343 If they can't solve your problem, what do they do? 239 00:14:16,343 --> 00:14:17,904 They'll send you a new phone. 240 00:14:18,044 --> 00:14:22,847 Now I'm not saying that people should send you a new EV. 241 00:14:22,867 --> 00:14:25,969 That might be a little bit ridiculous, but you get the idea. 242 00:14:25,969 --> 00:14:29,831 There's something built in to deal with some of those issues. 243 00:14:35,206 --> 00:14:37,626 where those things weren't being done. 244 00:14:38,047 --> 00:14:45,569 And when you add in the rush to do the deployment, and when you add in the fact 245 00:14:45,569 --> 00:14:51,811 that there were financial incentives to deploy the infrastructure, but it didn't 246 00:14:51,811 --> 00:14:58,233 come with similar incentives for uptime and maintenance. 247 00:14:58,898 --> 00:15:02,279 you ended up with a situation where chargers were going in the ground where 248 00:15:02,279 --> 00:15:05,661 they didn't really need to go or shouldn't have gone in the first place. 249 00:15:05,661 --> 00:15:08,342 People were paid money just to deploy them. 250 00:15:08,423 --> 00:15:09,783 Then they weren't being used. 251 00:15:09,783 --> 00:15:12,465 And when they're not being used, then they're being ignored. 252 00:15:12,465 --> 00:15:14,386 When they're being ignored, they're being vandalized. 253 00:15:14,386 --> 00:15:16,787 And when they're being vandalized, they don't work. 254 00:15:16,787 --> 00:15:20,149 And because the chargers were in places where nobody is using them and it's 255 00:15:20,149 --> 00:15:24,011 expensive to fix them, the company that put it there doesn't want to spend money 256 00:15:24,011 --> 00:15:25,432 to fix it because why should they? 257 00:15:25,432 --> 00:15:28,734 Why put money into an underperforming? 258 00:15:28,734 --> 00:15:30,955 real estate asset. 259 00:15:31,595 --> 00:15:39,961 If you have a shopping center and the neighborhood isn't so good anymore and 260 00:15:39,961 --> 00:15:43,884 people are not coming into the shopping center and nobody's coming in there and 261 00:15:43,884 --> 00:15:47,727 your tenants are starting to stop paying rent because they can't afford to do it 262 00:15:47,727 --> 00:15:51,649 anymore because business stinks, as a property owner, what are you gonna do with 263 00:15:51,649 --> 00:15:52,450 that piece of property? 264 00:15:52,450 --> 00:15:55,912 You're probably gonna look to unload it, but you're certainly not gonna invest more 265 00:15:55,912 --> 00:15:58,213 money into an underperforming asset. 266 00:15:58,921 --> 00:15:59,318 Right. 267 00:15:59,318 --> 00:16:02,702 So the infrastructure companies are kind of looking at this the same way. 268 00:16:02,702 --> 00:16:06,568 If it's an underperforming asset, we're not going to spend money to fix something 269 00:16:06,568 --> 00:16:08,891 that it's not going to give us a return. 270 00:16:08,891 --> 00:16:13,016 And on top of that, they don't even have an obligation to put money into it anyway. 271 00:16:13,257 --> 00:16:16,921 So when you put all that stuff together, you almost have like a perfect storm. 272 00:16:17,292 --> 00:16:22,775 For sure, and I mean, already this has brought up so many questions and just so 273 00:16:22,775 --> 00:16:25,117 many, yeah, there's so many topics. 274 00:16:25,117 --> 00:16:29,240 So I think even just for people who are listening, let's take it one kind of step 275 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:29,580 back. 276 00:16:29,580 --> 00:16:34,624 So you've already kind of built a really good foundation to show how similar it is 277 00:16:34,624 --> 00:16:39,787 to the traditional wireless energy industry. 278 00:16:39,787 --> 00:16:43,290 Are there any differences that you could share or anything that you've noticed 279 00:16:43,290 --> 00:16:46,131 about working in this industry that's really stood out to you? 280 00:16:47,278 --> 00:16:53,360 Yeah, I would say some of the stuff that for sure, a major difference is I would 281 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,941 say number one would be the ubiquity. 282 00:16:56,941 --> 00:17:03,523 In the sense that right now, just about every person that you know has a cell 283 00:17:03,523 --> 00:17:05,344 phone, certainly in developed countries. 284 00:17:05,344 --> 00:17:07,005 Who doesn't have a cell phone? 285 00:17:07,005 --> 00:17:08,945 Everybody has a cell phone, right? 286 00:17:09,305 --> 00:17:09,945 So... 287 00:17:11,998 --> 00:17:14,299 In the EV industry, you don't have that right now. 288 00:17:14,299 --> 00:17:22,505 You still have a very small percentage of drivers out there that have switched over 289 00:17:22,505 --> 00:17:24,546 to electric vehicles. 290 00:17:24,546 --> 00:17:31,311 Percentage-wise, it's a much smaller group of the overall, let's say, vehicle 291 00:17:31,311 --> 00:17:32,571 population. 292 00:17:32,572 --> 00:17:37,755 As opposed to right now, every person that needs to communicate essentially has a 293 00:17:37,755 --> 00:17:38,215 cell phone. 294 00:17:38,215 --> 00:17:40,937 Either they have an iPhone or they have an Android. 295 00:17:41,498 --> 00:17:46,582 leaving aside the few others that are left, but they're so small that they're 296 00:17:46,582 --> 00:17:49,164 almost non-existent. 297 00:17:49,204 --> 00:17:50,686 So everybody has one. 298 00:17:50,686 --> 00:17:53,968 So that's certainly something that's very different. 299 00:17:53,969 --> 00:18:01,495 I would say also in terms of the amount of the infrastructure and the size of it is 300 00:18:01,495 --> 00:18:02,857 also very different. 301 00:18:02,857 --> 00:18:07,000 For the most part in the wireless industry, you have very large cell phone 302 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:08,738 towers where you have... 303 00:18:08,738 --> 00:18:11,799 large installations on top of buildings. 304 00:18:11,799 --> 00:18:13,340 We'll just use that as an example. 305 00:18:13,340 --> 00:18:21,144 If you go, let's say we were to look in the solar business, rooftop installations, 306 00:18:21,144 --> 00:18:23,405 but then massive solar farms. 307 00:18:23,405 --> 00:18:29,708 So the size of the infrastructure, for the most part, it's big and bigger. 308 00:18:29,708 --> 00:18:33,918 There's some smaller examples of that if you do like distributed antenna systems. 309 00:18:33,918 --> 00:18:37,018 You might have just small antennas in a couple of different places. 310 00:18:37,018 --> 00:18:40,579 You might have what they refer to as backhaul, which is generally just an 311 00:18:40,579 --> 00:18:45,381 antenna to just supplementing, but for the most part, they're larger installations. 312 00:18:45,441 --> 00:18:51,283 When you get into the EV business, you're a little bit all over the place. 313 00:18:51,303 --> 00:18:55,364 You might have an individual charger in one place, and that might be the only 314 00:18:55,364 --> 00:18:56,924 thing that anybody put in. 315 00:18:57,064 --> 00:19:00,585 You might have, let's say, a shopping center where you have four or five of 316 00:19:00,585 --> 00:19:01,225 them. 317 00:19:01,330 --> 00:19:07,152 You might have brand new construction, let's say a brand new apartment building 318 00:19:07,152 --> 00:19:11,714 where they're building a building where they want it to be as technically up to 319 00:19:11,714 --> 00:19:15,696 date as possible and they might put in a whole bunch of it. 320 00:19:15,996 --> 00:19:22,059 Or you might have a parking facility or a college campus or something like that 321 00:19:22,059 --> 00:19:27,261 where you might see it on a larger scale or let's say in the fleet industry. 322 00:19:27,690 --> 00:19:31,111 There are some pretty well-known companies that have switched over their fleets or in 323 00:19:31,111 --> 00:19:34,712 the process of switching over their fleets to go all electric. 324 00:19:34,712 --> 00:19:38,173 Probably the two biggest ones that everybody probably knows about or if they 325 00:19:38,173 --> 00:19:40,553 don't know about would be like Domino's Pizza. 326 00:19:40,593 --> 00:19:44,994 Most of their delivery vehicles right now are electric or let's just use Amazon 327 00:19:44,994 --> 00:19:49,696 because they're doing electric vehicles for a lot of their last mile delivery. 328 00:19:49,696 --> 00:19:52,577 So they're doing that on a very large scale. 329 00:19:52,577 --> 00:19:56,057 So you really run the gamut. 330 00:19:56,178 --> 00:20:02,081 in terms of just a little bit of EV charging, all the way up to really fancy 331 00:20:02,081 --> 00:20:02,401 stuff. 332 00:20:02,401 --> 00:20:08,625 And the other thing that you see in the EV industry that's kind of different is that 333 00:20:08,625 --> 00:20:12,827 in terms of charging, you can have an individual charger that could be in 334 00:20:12,827 --> 00:20:16,109 somebody's home, could be what we refer to as a level one. 335 00:20:16,109 --> 00:20:21,052 It doesn't even have to be a level two because you can get away with hours that 336 00:20:21,052 --> 00:20:22,312 it takes to charge overnight. 337 00:20:22,312 --> 00:20:24,893 You don't need anything that sophisticated in your house. 338 00:20:24,902 --> 00:20:29,286 other than something a little bit better than your standard plug, but that's the 339 00:20:29,286 --> 00:20:31,848 easiest visual for people to understand. 340 00:20:31,848 --> 00:20:39,595 We go all the way up to what you would call DCFCs, level three, fast charging, 341 00:20:39,595 --> 00:20:44,720 where they can charge up your Porsche in 15 minutes. 342 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:50,905 You really need to have very specific infrastructure to be able to handle that. 343 00:20:51,050 --> 00:20:55,233 So we do run the gamut in terms of the type of infrastructure, and the industry 344 00:20:55,233 --> 00:21:02,719 is still at a point in time where what you deploy really needs to match the use case 345 00:21:02,719 --> 00:21:04,540 of where you're putting it. 346 00:21:04,621 --> 00:21:07,523 In the real estate world, what are the three most important things? 347 00:21:07,523 --> 00:21:09,865 It's location, and location. 348 00:21:11,206 --> 00:21:14,849 And you want to make sure that the infrastructure that you're putting in 349 00:21:14,849 --> 00:21:17,371 matches to the use case. 350 00:21:17,371 --> 00:21:19,573 The type of EV infrastructure that you 351 00:21:20,774 --> 00:21:25,481 in a major mobility corridor along the highway is not the same kind of thing that 352 00:21:25,481 --> 00:21:28,965 you might put in your single-family home. 353 00:21:29,666 --> 00:21:30,493 For sure. 354 00:21:30,794 --> 00:21:37,256 But when it comes to the telecom industry, it's pretty consistent in terms of the 355 00:21:37,256 --> 00:21:39,397 stuff that's going in the ground. 356 00:21:39,477 --> 00:21:43,899 There are towers, there are building installations, and that's for the most 357 00:21:43,899 --> 00:21:47,241 part kind of what you see everywhere. 358 00:21:47,241 --> 00:21:49,862 So that's something that's certainly different. 359 00:21:49,922 --> 00:21:54,664 There's a greater variety of the infrastructure and the infrastructure use 360 00:21:54,664 --> 00:21:57,585 cases in the EV industry. 361 00:21:57,962 --> 00:22:03,723 then you might see in something like the wireless telecommunications industry or 362 00:22:03,723 --> 00:22:07,564 what you might see in the solar business or you might see in the outdoor 363 00:22:07,564 --> 00:22:09,184 advertising business. 364 00:22:09,205 --> 00:22:15,046 Outdoor advertising, for the most part you're talking billboards in very dense 365 00:22:15,046 --> 00:22:15,966 neighborhoods. 366 00:22:15,966 --> 00:22:20,047 You're going to be putting in more of them assuming that the laws allow you to do it. 367 00:22:20,188 --> 00:22:24,589 In other places, you might only have a sign up every couple of miles along a 368 00:22:24,589 --> 00:22:25,429 highway, 369 00:22:27,518 --> 00:22:31,584 The type of infrastructure that you're putting in really, really varies in the EV 370 00:22:31,584 --> 00:22:36,771 world, really depending upon the location and really depending upon the use case. 371 00:22:36,771 --> 00:22:38,734 That's certainly something that's different. 372 00:22:39,632 --> 00:22:45,195 Interesting and that does make sense So I appreciate that kind of the context of 373 00:22:45,195 --> 00:22:48,537 where those differences are in the spaces And I think that makes sense to a lot of 374 00:22:48,537 --> 00:22:55,120 the listeners too my next question is can you I mean There's quite a few different 375 00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:58,562 questions out right now, but can you walk through what would be like? 376 00:22:59,162 --> 00:23:05,446 Maybe just a normal deal Like is it at least for ten years yada and I can all 377 00:23:05,446 --> 00:23:06,586 that stuff or? 378 00:23:07,187 --> 00:23:07,671 Yeah, can you? 379 00:23:07,671 --> 00:23:09,672 so many layers to that question, Chase. 380 00:23:09,672 --> 00:23:10,293 Oh my God. 381 00:23:10,293 --> 00:23:16,056 Okay, so the answer is, is that I wouldn't say that there isn't something that you 382 00:23:16,056 --> 00:23:21,720 would consider, that I would consider from my perspective to be a typical deal, in 383 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:30,505 the sense that we are very much still in the Wild West stage, in the way that 384 00:23:30,934 --> 00:23:36,097 20 plus years ago in the wireless telecom industry, we're in the Wild West stage. 385 00:23:36,097 --> 00:23:41,740 And by that I mean is that when they first started doing that you would see leases, 386 00:23:41,740 --> 00:23:43,181 you would see licenses. 387 00:23:43,181 --> 00:23:46,963 I know we're getting into a little bit of legal terminology but for the listeners, 388 00:23:46,963 --> 00:23:52,426 there is a difference between a lease agreement and a license agreement and 389 00:23:52,426 --> 00:23:55,388 let's just use the example of an easement agreement. 390 00:23:55,388 --> 00:23:58,418 Those are all very different types of legal structures. 391 00:23:58,418 --> 00:24:01,800 So you would kind of see things where that was a little bit all over the place. 392 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:08,045 What you would also see is all over the place would be payment structures. 393 00:24:08,445 --> 00:24:09,606 Are they paying rent? 394 00:24:09,606 --> 00:24:13,629 I can tell you the one thing that didn't come in the wireless telecom industry, but 395 00:24:13,629 --> 00:24:17,732 if it was out there, I have not seen it yet, is some sort of revenue share. 396 00:24:18,153 --> 00:24:20,375 I guarantee you that if you would go to any one of the... 397 00:24:20,375 --> 00:24:23,857 Let's say you had a tower on your property and you went to the wireless company that 398 00:24:23,857 --> 00:24:24,530 was... 399 00:24:24,530 --> 00:24:27,550 leasing the space for the tower on your property, and you said, I want some kind 400 00:24:27,550 --> 00:24:31,831 of a revenue share from all the customers that are coming through your antennas, 401 00:24:32,212 --> 00:24:33,792 they would look at you like you're crazy. 402 00:24:33,792 --> 00:24:39,574 Now they do some form of revenue share if they sometimes bring in additional 403 00:24:39,574 --> 00:24:40,514 tenants. 404 00:24:40,514 --> 00:24:44,955 So this gets us a little bit into the nitty gritty of this, but just for 405 00:24:44,955 --> 00:24:50,677 purposes of example, if you had a tower company that was leasing the space for the 406 00:24:50,677 --> 00:24:53,957 tower, their business model is to bring 407 00:24:54,810 --> 00:24:57,911 other wireless tenants onto the tower. 408 00:24:58,051 --> 00:25:02,794 So they might pay you, let's say I'll use stupid numbers, they'll pay you $1,000 a 409 00:25:02,794 --> 00:25:06,996 month to put the tower on the ground, but then they in turn might make separate 410 00:25:06,996 --> 00:25:10,958 agreements with three or four different wireless companies who will then put their 411 00:25:10,958 --> 00:25:16,061 equipment on the tower, who will then pay rent to the tower company, not necessarily 412 00:25:16,061 --> 00:25:16,822 to you as the owner. 413 00:25:16,822 --> 00:25:19,583 You as the owner, you're still only getting your $1,000 a month. 414 00:25:19,583 --> 00:25:22,424 You might be able to work out a revenue share with them. 415 00:25:22,745 --> 00:25:24,405 It's kind of like a sublease. 416 00:25:24,406 --> 00:25:25,618 Yeah, interesting. 417 00:25:25,618 --> 00:25:28,439 you might be able to work something out with them, well, oh, if you bring an 418 00:25:28,439 --> 00:25:31,920 additional tenant, you're gonna have to pay me an extra $100 a month. 419 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,282 But the reason why I'm giving you this example is that if you went to the company 420 00:25:35,282 --> 00:25:41,704 and said, I want some revenue in my pocket based on the traffic that you are 421 00:25:41,704 --> 00:25:46,627 generating and the money that you are making from your cell phone customers who 422 00:25:46,627 --> 00:25:51,309 are using that tower, they would look at you like, they would tell you to go pound 423 00:25:51,309 --> 00:25:52,129 sand. 424 00:25:52,369 --> 00:25:53,842 They're not gonna do that with you. 425 00:25:53,842 --> 00:25:58,483 Now, in the EV industry right now, that is one of the more common business models is 426 00:25:58,483 --> 00:26:03,264 some form of revenue sharing for the people that are coming in to use the 427 00:26:03,264 --> 00:26:06,105 charger on your property to charge up. 428 00:26:06,105 --> 00:26:11,487 Whether or not over time that will be a sustainable model, I don't know. 429 00:26:11,487 --> 00:26:13,467 It could be, it could be not. 430 00:26:13,507 --> 00:26:18,569 The one thing that I'm not seeing so much of right now are EV charging companies 431 00:26:18,569 --> 00:26:21,889 paying rent to the property owner for the privilege 432 00:26:21,962 --> 00:26:23,782 putting the charger down on their property. 433 00:26:23,782 --> 00:26:28,464 So not necessarily a revenue share, but hypothetically we'll pay you $100 a month 434 00:26:28,464 --> 00:26:30,464 so we can put your charger here. 435 00:26:30,464 --> 00:26:34,506 And then the infrastructure companies is getting all the money. 436 00:26:34,506 --> 00:26:40,608 So in that same vein, besides seeing those different business and payment structures, 437 00:26:40,608 --> 00:26:45,549 I've seen leases, I've seen licenses, I've seen easement agreements. 438 00:26:46,874 --> 00:26:47,694 all over the place. 439 00:26:47,694 --> 00:26:51,615 I've seen combinations of rent, I've seen combinations of revenue share and there's 440 00:26:51,615 --> 00:26:55,976 a company out there who we will not name doesn't pay any rent. 441 00:26:56,716 --> 00:27:01,798 And their game is that when we put your stuff there, our stuff's really good and 442 00:27:01,798 --> 00:27:06,939 it's going to be great advertising by the way for us too, don't tell anybody, but 443 00:27:06,939 --> 00:27:11,280 also for you and people will see that you have this high quality charging equipment 444 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:15,181 on your property and we will bring you more customers. 445 00:27:15,270 --> 00:27:19,472 And so by the more customers coming into your shopping center or to your business 446 00:27:19,472 --> 00:27:23,734 or to your parking facility, you will in turn be making more money because they're 447 00:27:23,734 --> 00:27:27,536 gonna be coming when they see our equipment, but they don't pay rent. 448 00:27:27,536 --> 00:27:36,661 So the models are really all over the place and it's really dependent on what 449 00:27:36,661 --> 00:27:37,922 the use case is. 450 00:27:37,922 --> 00:27:40,883 So let's just use the example that I gave you. 451 00:27:41,784 --> 00:27:44,485 In the situation where they're not paying rent, 452 00:27:44,678 --> 00:27:51,479 If you don't have a business where you can in turn make money from the extra volume 453 00:27:51,479 --> 00:27:56,681 of vehicles that are now coming into your property to charge up, are you likely to 454 00:27:56,681 --> 00:28:03,563 accept zero rent as an exchange for signing a lease and giving the company the 455 00:28:03,563 --> 00:28:05,243 privilege of putting their equipment there? 456 00:28:05,243 --> 00:28:06,904 Probably not. 457 00:28:06,984 --> 00:28:12,545 If you're not sure whether or not you're going to consistently make money from more 458 00:28:12,545 --> 00:28:13,778 people coming in. 459 00:28:13,778 --> 00:28:17,419 Might you turn around and go to the infrastructure company and say, I want 460 00:28:17,419 --> 00:28:19,780 some rent or I want some revenue share. 461 00:28:19,780 --> 00:28:23,161 Now, by the way, there are companies that will do that with you. 462 00:28:23,302 --> 00:28:27,023 They might be more apt to haggle and work those things out with you. 463 00:28:27,023 --> 00:28:30,545 But again, it's going to be dependent upon what your use case is. 464 00:28:30,545 --> 00:28:34,186 I'll give you one other just to sort of turn the entire thing on its head. 465 00:28:34,206 --> 00:28:38,288 Let's just say that you're an apartment building and you want to be able to 466 00:28:38,288 --> 00:28:41,929 provide this as an amenity to your tenants. 467 00:28:42,974 --> 00:28:44,154 You might do that. 468 00:28:44,434 --> 00:28:47,856 You may charge your tenants across the board. 469 00:28:47,856 --> 00:28:50,318 Everybody in the building might have to pay a little bit more in monthly 470 00:28:50,318 --> 00:28:52,059 maintenance because you're doing that. 471 00:28:52,059 --> 00:28:55,481 You might decide you only want to charge the people in the building, you'll have 472 00:28:55,481 --> 00:28:59,543 EVs, a little bit of extra money for the privilege of being able to do that. 473 00:28:59,583 --> 00:29:04,886 So you might be comfortable without accepting rent or revenue share from the 474 00:29:04,886 --> 00:29:08,108 infrastructure company because your tenants are gonna say, this is the 475 00:29:08,108 --> 00:29:09,329 greatest building in the world. 476 00:29:09,329 --> 00:29:11,378 I get the charge up here, this is awesome. 477 00:29:11,378 --> 00:29:13,218 and it's really cheap and I love it. 478 00:29:13,679 --> 00:29:17,741 We have great rules and we have no fights over who's using the charging. 479 00:29:17,741 --> 00:29:21,783 So again, you really, you have to look at this. 480 00:29:22,083 --> 00:29:27,306 And I think that my long-winded way of answering this question, Chase, is that 481 00:29:27,306 --> 00:29:30,948 you have to look at this from a whole bunch of different directions. 482 00:29:30,948 --> 00:29:33,710 You have to look at the legal structures to see if it makes sense. 483 00:29:33,710 --> 00:29:37,311 You have to look at the business model to see if it makes sense. 484 00:29:37,312 --> 00:29:41,022 You have to know your tenants and your customers. 485 00:29:41,022 --> 00:29:42,743 to see if it makes sense. 486 00:29:42,803 --> 00:29:45,906 You need to know if there's sufficient volume in the neighborhood where you're 487 00:29:45,906 --> 00:29:48,647 living in order to put the chargers in. 488 00:29:49,028 --> 00:29:52,311 One of my favorite examples of this, and we've all seen it, the picture of the 489 00:29:52,311 --> 00:29:56,054 charger on a road in the middle of nowhere where there's nothing around you except 490 00:29:56,054 --> 00:29:57,635 for mountains. 491 00:29:57,635 --> 00:29:59,097 What's that doing there? 492 00:29:59,097 --> 00:30:00,938 Who's charging up over there? 493 00:30:01,839 --> 00:30:07,503 So you need to know your local market and whether or not it's going to make sense 494 00:30:07,503 --> 00:30:10,238 for you to spend money on putting the infrastructure in a place. 495 00:30:10,238 --> 00:30:11,158 Will people come? 496 00:30:11,158 --> 00:30:12,118 Will people use it? 497 00:30:12,118 --> 00:30:13,819 Will you make money from it? 498 00:30:14,300 --> 00:30:17,721 These are all sorts of questions that people are asking on all sides of the 499 00:30:17,721 --> 00:30:22,284 equation and it's not as simple as, oh this is great, we'll just put a charger in 500 00:30:22,284 --> 00:30:23,604 and people will come. 501 00:30:24,545 --> 00:30:26,045 It's not that simple. 502 00:30:26,201 --> 00:30:29,823 as someone who has done a lot of EV road trips It is really nice when you do find 503 00:30:29,823 --> 00:30:34,606 that random one in the mountains because sometimes that saves your butt but yes, it 504 00:30:34,607 --> 00:30:39,290 doesn't seem like it's a long-term successful business if it's like one 505 00:30:39,290 --> 00:30:46,615 person every few days, but I Think one thing I want to kind of ask you with You 506 00:30:46,615 --> 00:30:51,898 did mention kind of koi that the there is this company that doesn't charge rent Does 507 00:30:51,898 --> 00:30:53,919 this company use? 508 00:30:54,288 --> 00:30:56,270 or yeah, it doesn't pay rent. 509 00:30:56,853 --> 00:31:00,620 Is this company, are you familiar if they use a lot of data to present to these 510 00:31:00,620 --> 00:31:05,207 people as to why they should be doing it to kind of make their use case? 511 00:31:05,419 --> 00:31:09,701 so this is one of the great mysteries to which I am not necessarily privy to just 512 00:31:09,701 --> 00:31:10,441 yet. 513 00:31:10,561 --> 00:31:15,403 I would love to know a little more of exactly how they in fact pitch this. 514 00:31:15,543 --> 00:31:20,945 I can say anecdotally based on stuff that I have seen, I have some idea about how 515 00:31:20,945 --> 00:31:21,866 they're doing their pitch. 516 00:31:21,866 --> 00:31:23,807 They're doing their pitch in a couple of ways. 517 00:31:23,807 --> 00:31:26,628 Part of their pitch is we will bring you more customers. 518 00:31:26,628 --> 00:31:31,249 Whether or not they share that data with you, I suspect not. 519 00:31:31,826 --> 00:31:32,586 That's number one. 520 00:31:32,586 --> 00:31:38,431 Number two, the other thing that they do is that they also promise a very easy 521 00:31:38,711 --> 00:31:40,833 contracts process. 522 00:31:40,833 --> 00:31:45,677 And their contracts are very simple. 523 00:31:45,677 --> 00:31:46,718 I'll use that word. 524 00:31:46,718 --> 00:31:48,119 They're very simple. 525 00:31:48,220 --> 00:31:53,784 And simple can be good, except if you go back to the example that I gave you before 526 00:31:53,784 --> 00:31:56,647 of the person that chose not to get health insurance. 527 00:31:56,647 --> 00:31:58,608 What do you do when there's a problem? 528 00:31:58,669 --> 00:32:00,089 When there's a problem, 529 00:32:00,146 --> 00:32:02,326 You may not have anybody you can call. 530 00:32:02,546 --> 00:32:05,267 For the most part, the equipment always works all the time. 531 00:32:05,267 --> 00:32:06,907 But then sometimes it doesn't. 532 00:32:06,907 --> 00:32:10,428 And then when it doesn't, what's your recourse if it doesn't? 533 00:32:10,428 --> 00:32:11,969 How do you deal with that? 534 00:32:11,969 --> 00:32:14,770 How quickly do they have to roll a truck? 535 00:32:14,770 --> 00:32:18,711 How quickly are they obligated to fix it? 536 00:32:19,251 --> 00:32:20,051 So and so forth. 537 00:32:20,051 --> 00:32:21,812 So those things would be missing. 538 00:32:21,812 --> 00:32:23,992 So it's an easy contract process. 539 00:32:23,992 --> 00:32:28,453 It's an easy sell because you're not gonna need to mark it up. 540 00:32:28,638 --> 00:32:34,200 They probably don't market up very much, if at all, so it's an easy sell. 541 00:32:35,700 --> 00:32:39,882 That becomes one of those other issues, and that is the way in which they're 542 00:32:39,882 --> 00:32:40,902 pitching that. 543 00:32:41,523 --> 00:32:46,045 One of the things, and in fact, I actually have this on a slide that I'm using for a 544 00:32:46,045 --> 00:32:48,425 CLE that I'm going to be doing next month. 545 00:32:48,826 --> 00:32:53,868 One of the things that I try also to explain to people is that unless you as 546 00:32:53,868 --> 00:32:54,868 the property 547 00:32:59,614 --> 00:33:01,635 You are purchasing it for yourself. 548 00:33:01,775 --> 00:33:06,639 And you are independently handling all of the maintenance and all of the upkeep and 549 00:33:06,639 --> 00:33:07,760 everything else. 550 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,723 And essentially the infrastructure company is selling you the equipment and now 551 00:33:11,723 --> 00:33:17,247 you're using it on your property, much like you might use, I don't know, air 552 00:33:17,247 --> 00:33:18,708 conditioning equipment on your property. 553 00:33:18,708 --> 00:33:20,529 Like it's yours, you deal with it. 554 00:33:20,529 --> 00:33:23,171 Yes, we might have the maintenance and a service contract, so we'll come and fix 555 00:33:23,171 --> 00:33:26,633 it, but it basically it's your problem, for the most part, right? 556 00:33:26,698 --> 00:33:31,119 So unless you're doing that, you're not necessarily going to own the data and the 557 00:33:31,119 --> 00:33:34,981 analytics that you are getting from all the people that are coming and using. 558 00:33:35,261 --> 00:33:38,242 Now if you're putting that, let's say, into an apartment building, you pretty 559 00:33:38,242 --> 00:33:41,864 much know who all the people are in your apartment building that are using it. 560 00:33:41,864 --> 00:33:45,885 You might wanna know how often are people using it, who are using it the most often, 561 00:33:45,885 --> 00:33:48,206 how much time are they spending on charging? 562 00:33:48,627 --> 00:33:52,868 Do you have a tenant that is consistently, let's say you have a shared charger that 563 00:33:52,868 --> 00:33:55,870 they're consistently not moving their cars when they're supposed to? 564 00:33:55,870 --> 00:33:59,872 So you might wanna know some of that data and some of those analytics, and some of 565 00:33:59,872 --> 00:34:03,955 that stuff might be shared with you, but it might not be. 566 00:34:04,035 --> 00:34:08,819 And that might be completely dependent on, once again, what is in your contract? 567 00:34:08,819 --> 00:34:13,382 What does it say about whether or not they're going to share that data with you? 568 00:34:13,382 --> 00:34:16,204 How much of that information are they going to provide to you? 569 00:34:16,204 --> 00:34:20,767 So for the most part, you don't get access to the data in general with any of the 570 00:34:20,767 --> 00:34:22,988 infrastructure companies, they're getting it. 571 00:34:23,649 --> 00:34:24,636 And especially for the... 572 00:34:24,636 --> 00:34:25,196 sense. 573 00:34:25,196 --> 00:34:26,417 I was just kind of curious. 574 00:34:26,417 --> 00:34:30,839 I didn't think they would maybe be giving very concrete numbers, but I could say 575 00:34:30,839 --> 00:34:36,721 like, this is what we're seeing average, what we predict may be average traffic and 576 00:34:36,721 --> 00:34:41,983 the average consumer, if they wanted to get really is like of who drives an EV or 577 00:34:41,983 --> 00:34:46,145 buys our products makes X numbers from what we can tell. 578 00:34:47,486 --> 00:34:51,267 I do also have just another follow-up question in this company that we keep 579 00:34:51,267 --> 00:34:52,227 alluding to. 580 00:34:52,296 --> 00:34:57,259 Is this company, I think I know who we're talking about, but is this company also 581 00:34:57,259 --> 00:35:03,884 one that has their own essentially team that goes around fixing these? 582 00:35:03,884 --> 00:35:06,946 Because that has been talking about maintenance, that has been one of the big 583 00:35:06,946 --> 00:35:11,629 issues is there's only a handful of charging companies that actually has their 584 00:35:11,629 --> 00:35:14,891 own teams, most of the time they have to hire it out to local engineers. 585 00:35:14,994 --> 00:35:18,256 Right, so some of them do their own maintenance, some of them are hiring 586 00:35:18,256 --> 00:35:19,797 outside companies to do that. 587 00:35:19,797 --> 00:35:26,221 If you as a property owner are working with any one of these EV infrastructure 588 00:35:26,221 --> 00:35:31,225 companies, you would hope that they're going to provide you with a couple of 589 00:35:31,225 --> 00:35:31,605 things. 590 00:35:31,605 --> 00:35:36,428 You were talking about your point earlier about are there cars in the neighborhood, 591 00:35:36,428 --> 00:35:39,470 will people need it, will they use it, and so on and so forth. 592 00:35:39,470 --> 00:35:44,794 That becomes really relevant if you are making it available to the public. 593 00:35:44,954 --> 00:35:49,817 I would hope that the infrastructure company, as part of their pitch to 594 00:35:49,817 --> 00:35:54,220 convince you to put their charging equipment on your property, is explaining 595 00:35:54,220 --> 00:35:58,663 to you, here's how we came up with why we decided that we think your property is a 596 00:35:58,663 --> 00:36:00,184 good candidate for this. 597 00:36:00,445 --> 00:36:05,969 I suspect in some instances, with some of the less reputable companies, maybe 598 00:36:05,969 --> 00:36:09,911 they're not providing that information, or if they're providing that information, 599 00:36:09,911 --> 00:36:13,293 they're not providing the whole picture, because... 600 00:36:13,630 --> 00:36:16,631 It's not outside the realm of possibilities that some people were 601 00:36:16,631 --> 00:36:22,735 focused more on the sale and the land grab and to get the infrastructure in the 602 00:36:22,735 --> 00:36:26,156 ground somewhere, anywhere, it doesn't matter. 603 00:36:26,156 --> 00:36:30,599 The really good companies, I would hope, are sharing that information as part of 604 00:36:30,599 --> 00:36:34,141 their pitch to convince you that it makes sense for it to go into your property. 605 00:36:34,141 --> 00:36:38,903 By the way, on the flip side of that, if it turns out that your property is not a 606 00:36:38,903 --> 00:36:42,205 good location for this, you would think that they would move on and go to somebody 607 00:36:42,205 --> 00:36:42,945 else. 608 00:36:43,594 --> 00:36:46,515 but I'll leave that out there for the moment. 609 00:36:47,777 --> 00:36:51,439 So that's gonna be part of what goes into that. 610 00:36:51,699 --> 00:36:55,942 One of the things that's really good for the companies that do everything, and 611 00:36:55,942 --> 00:37:00,266 there are companies that do everything, they do the charging, they do the 612 00:37:00,266 --> 00:37:03,068 vehicles, they do the maintenance, they do the upkeep, they do everything, they 613 00:37:03,068 --> 00:37:06,810 really have the ability to have consistent control over it. 614 00:37:06,810 --> 00:37:11,813 And because of that, they also have access to all of the data. 615 00:37:12,018 --> 00:37:17,280 So also when it comes time to figure out where might we need other charging 616 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:22,142 infrastructure, they probably know better than anybody else on the planet where it 617 00:37:22,142 --> 00:37:24,423 makes sense to put their stuff. 618 00:37:24,423 --> 00:37:28,524 Because not only do they have the cars, but they also have the chargers, they have 619 00:37:28,524 --> 00:37:30,445 the maintenance, they do everything. 620 00:37:30,445 --> 00:37:32,146 They have the data for everything. 621 00:37:32,146 --> 00:37:36,027 They know how quickly, how much time it takes to repair in a particular place, 622 00:37:36,027 --> 00:37:41,394 they know how often you have problems, they know where the cars go. 623 00:37:41,394 --> 00:37:44,615 where they stop, how much time they're in them, so on and so forth. 624 00:37:44,615 --> 00:37:49,817 You can slice it and dice it as many ways as you want, which by the way, is the 625 00:37:49,817 --> 00:37:55,219 exact way in which the telecommunications companies determined where to put their 626 00:37:55,219 --> 00:37:57,100 towers and their infrastructure. 627 00:37:57,100 --> 00:37:58,101 How do they do that? 628 00:37:58,101 --> 00:37:59,741 They know where their customers are. 629 00:37:59,741 --> 00:38:02,122 They know where they need it. 630 00:38:02,122 --> 00:38:05,424 And based on that, they decide where to put it. 631 00:38:05,464 --> 00:38:09,554 What's happened a lot, and this is one of the things where we go back to sort of our 632 00:38:09,554 --> 00:38:14,935 sameness and differences with the industry is that in a lot of instances, a lot of 633 00:38:14,935 --> 00:38:18,716 the early infrastructure was just put wherever. 634 00:38:18,716 --> 00:38:22,678 By the way, not necessarily in a bad way either because you didn't have the data at 635 00:38:22,678 --> 00:38:24,878 the beginning to know where to go. 636 00:38:24,878 --> 00:38:26,419 Now we're so much better at this. 637 00:38:26,419 --> 00:38:28,819 Now we have millions of these cars on the roads. 638 00:38:28,819 --> 00:38:30,900 Now we know where they are. 639 00:38:30,940 --> 00:38:34,841 There are companies beside the EV infrastructure companies, there are 640 00:38:34,841 --> 00:38:36,041 companies that... 641 00:38:36,118 --> 00:38:40,460 specialize in providing this data and making it available to you so you can 642 00:38:40,460 --> 00:38:41,381 figure it out. 643 00:38:41,381 --> 00:38:47,205 If you think that your corner is a good spot for it, there are all sorts of 644 00:38:47,205 --> 00:38:50,928 applications out there that can tell you where the other charges are in the 645 00:38:50,928 --> 00:38:55,551 neighborhood, who owns them, how far away they are, how many people in the vicinity 646 00:38:55,551 --> 00:38:58,713 own EVs, what are the likelihood that people will come and charge up at your 647 00:38:58,713 --> 00:39:01,715 location versus the one that's down the block. 648 00:39:01,715 --> 00:39:03,516 Do you need one at your location? 649 00:39:03,516 --> 00:39:05,990 Is the one that's down the block or the one that's? 650 00:39:05,990 --> 00:39:09,292 in the other direction enough for all the people in the neighborhood and maybe you 651 00:39:09,292 --> 00:39:13,155 don't need to spend the money and to go through the trouble to put it on your 652 00:39:13,155 --> 00:39:13,895 property. 653 00:39:13,895 --> 00:39:18,278 So we have more of that information that's available and I think what will start to 654 00:39:18,278 --> 00:39:24,523 happen is that over time as more of the data becomes accessible, leaving aside the 655 00:39:24,523 --> 00:39:28,245 company that keeps it to themselves, but as more of the data starts to become 656 00:39:28,245 --> 00:39:32,648 accessible, we'll be able to make smarter decisions about where to put the 657 00:39:32,648 --> 00:39:34,530 infrastructure in the first place. 658 00:39:34,530 --> 00:39:37,733 If we make smarter decisions about where to put the infrastructure in the first 659 00:39:37,733 --> 00:39:43,359 place, we will have fewer and fewer situations where it's not working, it's 660 00:39:43,359 --> 00:39:49,385 not being maintained, and we're not going to have the horror stories that we have of 661 00:39:49,385 --> 00:39:53,209 people rolling up the chargers that just don't work for all the reasons we spoke 662 00:39:53,209 --> 00:39:54,269 about before. 663 00:39:55,036 --> 00:39:55,296 Right. 664 00:39:55,296 --> 00:39:56,376 And that makes a lot of sense. 665 00:39:56,376 --> 00:39:59,838 What's interesting is we've had a couple of people on as guests who have kind of 666 00:39:59,838 --> 00:40:05,020 just said, you know what, uh, having the data is great, but it's the actual 667 00:40:05,020 --> 00:40:08,741 building process, the permitting, all this stuff is taking so long. 668 00:40:08,941 --> 00:40:11,923 And there is kind of just, it's just good to get it in the ground. 669 00:40:11,923 --> 00:40:15,244 Cause once you have on the ground, then you can go back and update it later. 670 00:40:15,584 --> 00:40:19,786 Is that you think still a worthy, it sounds like you bring an interesting 671 00:40:19,786 --> 00:40:23,807 opinion and kind of experience with it, but you disagree with that a little bit. 672 00:40:24,030 --> 00:40:25,010 A little bit. 673 00:40:26,271 --> 00:40:28,152 There is certainly something to be said. 674 00:40:28,152 --> 00:40:31,194 If you build it, they will come. 675 00:40:31,435 --> 00:40:34,697 It's one of the greatest movie lines of all time anyway. 676 00:40:34,697 --> 00:40:36,698 I mean, come on, Field of Dreams. 677 00:40:37,479 --> 00:40:40,261 Any boy that's into baseball will know that if you build it, they will come. 678 00:40:40,261 --> 00:40:43,003 So there is something to be said for that. 679 00:40:43,003 --> 00:40:48,107 On the other hand, it does take a lot of time to permit, to make sure that it's 680 00:40:48,107 --> 00:40:51,909 zoned, to get your electricity in. 681 00:40:52,298 --> 00:40:56,899 do the actual construction work, to get all the equipment that you need. 682 00:40:57,499 --> 00:40:59,580 So that stuff does take time. 683 00:40:59,580 --> 00:41:04,981 And I think because it does take time, that goes back to why it is so critical to 684 00:41:04,981 --> 00:41:08,162 do the homework in advance and to make sure that you're putting the equipment in 685 00:41:08,162 --> 00:41:10,923 a place where it makes sense to put it. 686 00:41:11,303 --> 00:41:16,625 So, you know, the example I gave you before of somebody not doing their 687 00:41:16,625 --> 00:41:20,285 homework and not looking at title and a survey and all of that other stuff. 688 00:41:20,338 --> 00:41:25,081 I have a real world example of that where somebody did not do that, put a charger in 689 00:41:25,081 --> 00:41:30,045 somewhere where they were legally landlocked, and once they got legally 690 00:41:30,045 --> 00:41:34,468 landlocked and that fence went up and people could not use their charger, they 691 00:41:34,468 --> 00:41:40,072 had 18 months worth of work that went up and went poof. 692 00:41:40,072 --> 00:41:43,054 You tell me, what do you think would have made more sense? 693 00:41:43,054 --> 00:41:44,315 Build it so they will come? 694 00:41:44,315 --> 00:41:44,815 Yeah, sure. 695 00:41:44,815 --> 00:41:45,596 Get it in the ground. 696 00:41:45,596 --> 00:41:48,137 Get it, and then we'll worry about the problems afterwards. 697 00:41:48,218 --> 00:41:51,380 Or should we have spent a little bit of money and time in looking into this 698 00:41:51,380 --> 00:41:55,683 property and possibly discovering that we were legally landlocked and maybe we 699 00:41:55,683 --> 00:42:01,767 should have gone, I don't know, across the street, down the block, or maybe not in 700 00:42:02,207 --> 00:42:06,290 this vicinity to begin with? 701 00:42:08,232 --> 00:42:10,013 So it does cut both ways. 702 00:42:10,013 --> 00:42:11,413 It does cut both ways. 703 00:42:11,545 --> 00:42:15,250 Well, and I think the way you're approaching it makes a lot of sense. 704 00:42:15,250 --> 00:42:20,196 And I can also see the argument like, OK, maybe due to supply chain, we can't get 705 00:42:20,196 --> 00:42:20,977 everything we want. 706 00:42:20,977 --> 00:42:24,502 But let's just get this location, get the stuff we can, and then come back later and 707 00:42:24,502 --> 00:42:25,282 do it. 708 00:42:25,463 --> 00:42:26,382 But I. 709 00:42:26,382 --> 00:42:30,624 if you've done all your homework to determine that this location is an ideal 710 00:42:30,624 --> 00:42:40,228 place, then it might make sense to wait, but for you to take the time that it needs 711 00:42:40,228 --> 00:42:46,290 to take because when you're done doing all of that, you will have a perfect place 712 00:42:46,390 --> 00:42:50,152 where the charging is needed, where it will be utilized, where it will be used, 713 00:42:50,152 --> 00:42:53,733 and where everybody will consistently... 714 00:42:54,158 --> 00:42:55,759 make money from it. 715 00:42:55,979 --> 00:43:00,323 One other way that I think is helpful to think about this, if I gave you the 716 00:43:00,323 --> 00:43:06,909 example of one company that did not do its homework and just put their chargers down 717 00:43:06,909 --> 00:43:14,375 wherever and grab land and figured we'll deal with the problems afterwards versus a 718 00:43:14,375 --> 00:43:20,039 company that took its time, was methodical about this, actually thought about where 719 00:43:20,039 --> 00:43:22,814 it made sense to put it, did their homework. 720 00:43:22,814 --> 00:43:26,135 discovered that this location is no good. 721 00:43:26,835 --> 00:43:30,077 This location might be great, but the person that wants to sign this contract 722 00:43:30,077 --> 00:43:31,457 with me can't. 723 00:43:31,658 --> 00:43:33,959 So I don't think we're doing anything with him. 724 00:43:33,959 --> 00:43:35,299 We'll go to a neighbor. 725 00:43:35,299 --> 00:43:39,821 And so the company that did that or does that and then puts the infrastructure in 726 00:43:39,821 --> 00:43:44,443 the ground, if you had a choice between investing in that company versus the other 727 00:43:44,443 --> 00:43:47,485 one, where would you put your money? 728 00:43:47,485 --> 00:43:48,944 I know where I would put my money. 729 00:43:48,944 --> 00:43:50,984 All right. 730 00:43:50,984 --> 00:43:53,105 So, God, I've got so many questions for you. 731 00:43:53,105 --> 00:43:55,406 And I'm trying to be respectful of our time here. 732 00:43:55,406 --> 00:43:59,728 But the variable of time is obviously the big one we talk about a lot when it comes 733 00:43:59,728 --> 00:44:01,069 to these installations. 734 00:44:01,069 --> 00:44:02,649 And we've talked about it today. 735 00:44:02,970 --> 00:44:03,590 What do you find? 736 00:44:03,590 --> 00:44:06,791 And maybe it's location and site specific. 737 00:44:06,791 --> 00:44:13,114 But what have you found to be the biggest variables in the implementation process? 738 00:44:13,114 --> 00:44:16,935 And maybe the biggest variables people aren't expecting? 739 00:44:17,417 --> 00:44:19,367 that can kind of trip them up with that. 740 00:44:19,750 --> 00:44:23,451 Yeah, I would say the number one mistake is not doing your due diligence and not 741 00:44:23,451 --> 00:44:24,431 doing your homework. 742 00:44:24,431 --> 00:44:29,952 I know I keep harping on that, but that's just huge. 743 00:44:29,972 --> 00:44:36,974 That just saves you so much time and energy and money in the long run. 744 00:44:37,234 --> 00:44:41,535 And it helps to have a long game focus. 745 00:44:41,836 --> 00:44:43,856 So that is for sure number one. 746 00:44:43,856 --> 00:44:47,257 As a practical matter, what can be the biggest problem? 747 00:44:47,457 --> 00:44:49,317 It could almost be anything. 748 00:44:49,734 --> 00:44:53,275 It could be your zoning process, it could be your permitting process. 749 00:44:53,275 --> 00:44:57,797 It could be working with your local utility company to get it done. 750 00:44:57,857 --> 00:45:02,539 It could be the negotiation of your contract and your service level 751 00:45:02,539 --> 00:45:03,559 agreements. 752 00:45:04,220 --> 00:45:09,082 It could be the sort of thing where, let's say as a business, you decide you're going 753 00:45:09,082 --> 00:45:12,804 to kind of do the a la carte thing and you're going to get your own charges and 754 00:45:12,804 --> 00:45:15,805 do your own service and do your own software and do everything because maybe 755 00:45:15,805 --> 00:45:17,482 you thought that made sense. 756 00:45:17,482 --> 00:45:22,706 but any one of the pieces in that cog can slow you down. 757 00:45:22,706 --> 00:45:27,531 Whereas versus if you went with a company that's kind of a one-stop shop, you're 758 00:45:27,531 --> 00:45:31,255 really doing one agreement, they're taking care of all of that other stuff on the 759 00:45:31,255 --> 00:45:35,578 back end, that makes it a little bit of a smoother process. 760 00:45:35,599 --> 00:45:40,103 Then the other thing also is that the maintenance and the upkeep, that can be a 761 00:45:40,103 --> 00:45:43,262 huge problem if you don't deal with that from the get-go. 762 00:45:43,262 --> 00:45:45,763 in terms of determining who's responsible for what. 763 00:45:45,763 --> 00:45:50,004 I'll say there's another thing also, is also power load and power management. 764 00:45:50,004 --> 00:45:51,025 That's also huge. 765 00:45:51,025 --> 00:45:53,566 You need to look into that piece too. 766 00:45:53,806 --> 00:45:59,949 Because I have heard stories of a building where they say you can only use, charge a 767 00:45:59,949 --> 00:46:01,229 car for an hour. 768 00:46:01,369 --> 00:46:02,249 That's it. 769 00:46:02,390 --> 00:46:04,350 You get a maximum of an hour a day. 770 00:46:05,651 --> 00:46:08,852 That's not gonna work for most people, even at a level two. 771 00:46:08,852 --> 00:46:10,913 That's just not gonna be enough time. 772 00:46:10,913 --> 00:46:11,498 And... 773 00:46:11,498 --> 00:46:15,919 They're either making that decision because they're not knowledgeable, they 774 00:46:15,919 --> 00:46:18,320 don't understand how much time it takes. 775 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,882 It could be they're making that decision because the way their contract is set up, 776 00:46:21,882 --> 00:46:25,923 they are paying for all of the electricity and they don't want to foot the bill and 777 00:46:25,923 --> 00:46:30,765 so they feel if they limit people to an hour, it will cost them less money. 778 00:46:31,626 --> 00:46:33,927 It could also be there aren't enough chargers in the building. 779 00:46:33,927 --> 00:46:39,269 It could also be that the building can't handle the power load because they didn't 780 00:46:39,269 --> 00:46:40,714 think of all of those things. 781 00:46:40,714 --> 00:46:44,700 There's just so many pieces to this that go above and beyond just putting the darn 782 00:46:44,700 --> 00:46:49,707 thing in the ground and saying, hey, we did it. 783 00:46:49,707 --> 00:46:54,293 So there's a lot of stuff that can throw you sideways, Chase. 784 00:46:54,432 --> 00:46:55,092 For sure. 785 00:46:55,092 --> 00:47:00,397 And I think to maybe reframe the question I've been asking indirectly a lot, I 786 00:47:00,397 --> 00:47:02,439 guess, let's give in your experience. 787 00:47:02,439 --> 00:47:04,280 Let's just walk through. 788 00:47:04,981 --> 00:47:10,145 Let's just walk through what would be your ideal installation process, or what would 789 00:47:10,145 --> 00:47:11,567 be your ideal installation. 790 00:47:11,567 --> 00:47:15,990 And then one of the things we discuss a lot on this channel is, is there a 791 00:47:15,990 --> 00:47:21,195 business model for EV charging outside of being like a Flying J or the traditional 792 00:47:21,195 --> 00:47:21,876 one or. 793 00:47:21,876 --> 00:47:24,677 like a Tesla that has kind of revenues from across the board. 794 00:47:24,677 --> 00:47:30,521 So I think it'd be really interesting with the time we have to go through how you 795 00:47:30,521 --> 00:47:36,065 would design kind of the ideal charging location and if you can share like 796 00:47:36,065 --> 00:47:39,622 anything on round, even the ideal business model for doing such. 797 00:47:39,622 --> 00:47:47,070 Right, okay, so before I answer that question, if we're gonna go there, let's 798 00:47:47,070 --> 00:47:52,516 pick a particular type of location, and then we can have that discussion, because 799 00:47:52,516 --> 00:47:58,142 the answer to that question is completely dependent upon the location and the use 800 00:47:58,142 --> 00:47:59,363 case. 801 00:47:59,924 --> 00:48:01,205 It's totally different. 802 00:48:01,205 --> 00:48:02,306 call. 803 00:48:02,306 --> 00:48:05,289 And to clarify, I'm thinking like level three fast charging. 804 00:48:05,289 --> 00:48:12,336 So let's say level three fast charging maybe inner city or not inner city but 805 00:48:12,897 --> 00:48:15,710 between cities for road tripping or something. 806 00:48:15,710 --> 00:48:17,710 Okay, so that's good. 807 00:48:17,710 --> 00:48:23,192 Now we have a vision in our head, and now based on that I can answer that question. 808 00:48:23,192 --> 00:48:28,653 So if you're doing level three fast charging in a major mobility corridor, the 809 00:48:28,653 --> 00:48:35,715 place where it would make the most sense to put it is along a highway or with very 810 00:48:35,715 --> 00:48:39,536 close distance to a highway exit or off-ramp. 811 00:48:40,157 --> 00:48:43,417 That's probably where you would be thinking to put it. 812 00:48:43,434 --> 00:48:50,738 You would also want it to be an appropriate distance between two locations 813 00:48:50,738 --> 00:48:55,502 where it would make sense that people might be stopping part of the way to 814 00:48:55,502 --> 00:48:56,162 charge up. 815 00:48:56,162 --> 00:49:02,286 So if you have an urban area and a suburban area and people are traveling 816 00:49:02,286 --> 00:49:07,730 from a suburb into a major city, somewhere along that mobility corridor is a place 817 00:49:07,730 --> 00:49:11,232 where it would make sense to put the DCFC fast charging. 818 00:49:11,232 --> 00:49:13,438 People coming from work going to home 819 00:49:13,438 --> 00:49:18,502 people going from home to work, somewhere in there makes sense to put it. 820 00:49:18,702 --> 00:49:21,845 So that's how you have to think about that piece of it. 821 00:49:21,845 --> 00:49:24,647 The only thing that you have to think about this ideally is again, you would 822 00:49:24,647 --> 00:49:28,691 need to know, are there people in that suburban area with a lot of EVs? 823 00:49:28,691 --> 00:49:32,735 And if there are, then it makes sense to now put the fast charging probably where 824 00:49:32,735 --> 00:49:36,298 most of those people might be going to commute to work. 825 00:49:36,298 --> 00:49:39,240 That's one part of looking at this. 826 00:49:39,240 --> 00:49:40,630 You also need to know, 827 00:49:40,630 --> 00:49:46,211 The power requirements for a level three DCFC fast charger, they're massive. 828 00:49:46,371 --> 00:49:53,133 So you would need to know how close are you to the closest substation where you 829 00:49:53,133 --> 00:49:54,834 can draw that power. 830 00:49:54,874 --> 00:50:01,115 You might want to think about putting in fast chargers in that location that have 831 00:50:01,396 --> 00:50:05,417 onsite battery backup and power storage. 832 00:50:05,417 --> 00:50:06,757 Why would you wanna do that? 833 00:50:06,757 --> 00:50:07,897 Because 834 00:50:08,402 --> 00:50:13,546 At the most expensive time or busiest times of the day, not only you have more 835 00:50:13,546 --> 00:50:17,430 volume and more people coming in to charge up, but guess what? 836 00:50:17,430 --> 00:50:21,153 It costs more money for the electricity that you're going to use at that time of 837 00:50:21,153 --> 00:50:25,176 the day because of course the utility companies charge you a premium for 838 00:50:25,176 --> 00:50:28,039 providing electricity at peak hours. 839 00:50:28,039 --> 00:50:33,003 So, if you have a battery system in that fast charger, you might be able to draw 840 00:50:33,003 --> 00:50:35,785 power at cheaper periods of time. 841 00:50:36,082 --> 00:50:39,744 That way you store the power in there and that way when people show up at let's say 842 00:50:39,744 --> 00:50:44,686 four or five o'clock in the afternoon, power is available and it's not hyper 843 00:50:44,686 --> 00:50:50,189 expensive because you pulled the cheaper power from the grid at different times of 844 00:50:50,189 --> 00:50:50,950 the day. 845 00:50:50,950 --> 00:50:56,012 You might want to think about doing a battery backed up fast charger in that 846 00:50:56,012 --> 00:50:56,993 location. 847 00:50:56,993 --> 00:51:01,315 Then you need to also, what are your contracts going to look like? 848 00:51:01,315 --> 00:51:03,116 You need to do a title search. 849 00:51:03,116 --> 00:51:05,617 You would need to do a survey. 850 00:51:08,103 --> 00:51:11,986 You might want to see a photo sim of what it's going to look like. 851 00:51:11,986 --> 00:51:15,868 That way you can visually imagine how that's going to appear. 852 00:51:15,949 --> 00:51:18,851 You would want to make sure that the person that you're entering into that 853 00:51:18,851 --> 00:51:23,815 contract with and that owns the land on the side of the highway, whether it's your 854 00:51:23,815 --> 00:51:28,458 state, your county, or a private person, has actually the ability to enter into 855 00:51:28,458 --> 00:51:30,179 that contract with you. 856 00:51:30,179 --> 00:51:33,354 Then you would want to look at your contract terms from the get-go. 857 00:51:33,354 --> 00:51:35,536 Who is going to be responsible for the maintenance? 858 00:51:35,536 --> 00:51:38,139 What's going to happen when that charger breaks? 859 00:51:38,139 --> 00:51:41,242 If it's in a location where a lot of people are going to be using this charger 860 00:51:41,242 --> 00:51:45,487 and relying on it regularly, you probably want your maintenance window to be very 861 00:51:45,487 --> 00:51:46,407 short. 862 00:51:46,848 --> 00:51:48,329 Is there a company that... 863 00:51:48,809 --> 00:51:50,011 and I know this and this is all great. 864 00:51:50,011 --> 00:51:50,952 I'm just kind of curious. 865 00:51:50,952 --> 00:51:53,674 Are there is there like an average length? 866 00:51:54,135 --> 00:51:58,560 Term is it like three years and auto renews or what whatever you seem to be 867 00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:00,922 kind of normal around them 868 00:52:02,505 --> 00:52:03,608 I've seen everything. 869 00:52:03,608 --> 00:52:05,643 Right now, what you generally get 870 00:52:05,643 --> 00:52:08,210 ideal situation, what would you do? 871 00:52:08,453 --> 00:52:10,198 Or what would you say that the term should be? 872 00:52:10,198 --> 00:52:16,640 So, I would say that you would probably want, from the perspective of both the 873 00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:22,542 owner on the property and the company that's doing the investment, you probably 874 00:52:22,542 --> 00:52:29,784 want a lease 10 years, 15 years, something like that because you're both making an 875 00:52:29,784 --> 00:52:30,984 investment in this. 876 00:52:30,984 --> 00:52:33,945 You both want to know that you're going to be able to consistently make money over 877 00:52:33,945 --> 00:52:34,745 time. 878 00:52:34,805 --> 00:52:35,565 This is... 879 00:52:35,742 --> 00:52:38,783 This is as much an investment for the property owner as it is for the 880 00:52:38,783 --> 00:52:42,485 infrastructure company and as it is for the industry. 881 00:52:42,485 --> 00:52:45,966 Typically what you will see in a lot of wireless agreements and you will see this 882 00:52:45,966 --> 00:52:49,748 in outdoor advertising agreements and things like that is you will see something 883 00:52:49,748 --> 00:52:55,471 like a five-year term or an initial, let's say, 10-year term, and then you'll see 884 00:52:55,471 --> 00:52:59,673 five-year terms that will automatically renew after that, and you're looking at 25 885 00:52:59,673 --> 00:53:01,333 to 30-year leases. 886 00:53:01,350 --> 00:53:05,453 I think right now the industry is probably a little too immature for people to be 887 00:53:05,453 --> 00:53:11,719 willing to commit to a 30-year lease because it's probably going to change a 888 00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:12,820 lot over time. 889 00:53:12,820 --> 00:53:19,006 At the same time, it might take five years to actually see a sufficient return on 890 00:53:19,006 --> 00:53:24,331 that investment from both the owner and the infrastructure company for it to be 891 00:53:24,331 --> 00:53:26,353 worth it for them to do that. 892 00:53:26,353 --> 00:53:27,613 You want to know. 893 00:53:28,322 --> 00:53:31,302 Certainly, if you're investing in the infrastructure, you want to know that 894 00:53:31,302 --> 00:53:34,983 you're going to be there for at least the next five to 10 years without the owner 895 00:53:34,983 --> 00:53:35,784 throwing you out. 896 00:53:35,784 --> 00:53:38,864 From the owner's perspective, they also want to know that they're going to be able 897 00:53:38,864 --> 00:53:42,265 to see some money consistently over time. 898 00:53:42,265 --> 00:53:47,887 I think if you had a situation where you had leases for that five-year window and 899 00:53:47,887 --> 00:53:53,068 they would automatically renew, unless there are reasons to not do it, then we 900 00:53:53,068 --> 00:53:56,129 really start getting into the weeds as to how you would do that. 901 00:53:57,622 --> 00:54:00,263 probably begin to make some sense. 902 00:54:00,363 --> 00:54:06,306 That gives everybody the feeling that there's some staying power to this and 903 00:54:06,306 --> 00:54:10,729 that it's gonna be a worthwhile investment from both ends because we know that the 904 00:54:10,729 --> 00:54:14,551 infrastructure is gonna be here for a while and hopefully consistently paying 905 00:54:14,551 --> 00:54:15,571 over time. 906 00:54:15,711 --> 00:54:19,954 So in terms of the length of time, that's probably the sort of thing that you would 907 00:54:19,954 --> 00:54:20,854 wanna see. 908 00:54:20,854 --> 00:54:24,016 And the other thing also is that you will also wanna make sure that contract gives 909 00:54:24,016 --> 00:54:27,357 you the ability to upgrade your equipment. 910 00:54:28,518 --> 00:54:30,839 as it changes and as it improves. 911 00:54:30,839 --> 00:54:35,001 That is something that you see across the board with solar and with wind and with 912 00:54:35,001 --> 00:54:36,221 wireless telecom. 913 00:54:36,221 --> 00:54:39,443 They always have that built into the contracts and to the agreements. 914 00:54:39,443 --> 00:54:44,345 Yes, we might be putting this particular type of DCFC in the ground today, but it 915 00:54:44,345 --> 00:54:49,327 could turn out that the equipment improves to such a great extent that we might want 916 00:54:49,327 --> 00:54:51,668 to take it out and put something in better. 917 00:54:51,888 --> 00:54:55,669 We might want to upgrade the internals. 918 00:54:55,814 --> 00:54:59,555 of that equipment so that way it's charging faster and better and cheaper and 919 00:54:59,555 --> 00:55:01,396 more efficiently and so on and so forth. 920 00:55:01,396 --> 00:55:04,918 You would want to have the ability to essentially be able to freely do that 921 00:55:04,918 --> 00:55:10,880 without necessarily being interfered with or having the property owner interfering 922 00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:11,460 with you. 923 00:55:11,460 --> 00:55:13,661 Of course, you're not taking more space. 924 00:55:13,661 --> 00:55:17,383 You're not interfering with the real estate that they've given you, but you 925 00:55:17,383 --> 00:55:22,165 want to be able to upgrade your equipment as you need it from both perspectives. 926 00:55:22,248 --> 00:55:25,938 And there could be potential downtime or some other things to do that. 927 00:55:25,938 --> 00:55:27,061 I got you. 928 00:55:27,061 --> 00:55:27,742 Yeah. 929 00:55:27,742 --> 00:55:28,563 Interesting. 930 00:55:31,552 --> 00:55:32,955 Well, that's really fascinating. 931 00:55:32,955 --> 00:55:35,119 Are there any other things you would say to that? 932 00:55:35,801 --> 00:55:38,818 Or is that kind of it at a high level for fast charging? 933 00:55:38,818 --> 00:55:44,979 would say that the other thing also is access is absolutely critical in terms of 934 00:55:44,979 --> 00:55:51,081 maintenance and repairs, really critical, especially in our example of the DCFC. 935 00:55:51,081 --> 00:55:57,803 That is why it's so important to do the title search and to do the survey because 936 00:55:57,803 --> 00:56:02,164 really that equipment in particular is very expensive. 937 00:56:02,564 --> 00:56:04,424 It costs money to maintain it. 938 00:56:04,685 --> 00:56:08,045 There is a lot of work behind the scenes that has to go in. 939 00:56:08,422 --> 00:56:11,963 In order to get that equipment going, you really have to have your agreement going 940 00:56:11,963 --> 00:56:15,425 with the power company, with the power line. 941 00:56:15,425 --> 00:56:20,107 There's way more work that goes into a level three fast charger right then your 942 00:56:20,107 --> 00:56:22,868 typical at home level one setup. 943 00:56:22,868 --> 00:56:24,849 It's a whole different ballgame. 944 00:56:24,849 --> 00:56:29,672 And especially if you're making that type of investment, which by the way could 945 00:56:29,672 --> 00:56:33,633 easily be six figures, it would be who view. 946 00:56:33,974 --> 00:56:38,075 To do that and to know that you can consistently access it, that the contract 947 00:56:38,075 --> 00:56:41,076 gives you the ability to maintain it, that you're going to be able to keep it there 948 00:56:41,076 --> 00:56:46,218 for a consistent period of time, those are all the things that would really need to 949 00:56:46,218 --> 00:56:50,620 go into that in terms of that, let's say, being an ideal situation. 950 00:56:50,940 --> 00:56:53,762 By the way, we didn't even touch on whether or not it could be zoned and 951 00:56:53,762 --> 00:56:55,602 permitted for that sort of thing. 952 00:56:55,842 --> 00:56:59,124 You also would need to know that the spot that you pick that you think might be 953 00:56:59,124 --> 00:57:00,044 ideal 954 00:57:03,806 --> 00:57:07,622 that it's zoned and you would be able to get the permitting for that particular 955 00:57:07,622 --> 00:57:08,765 location too. 956 00:57:09,847 --> 00:57:12,018 Just a small thing to be aware of, right? 957 00:57:12,018 --> 00:57:13,728 Just a few little things. 958 00:57:13,888 --> 00:57:15,168 So yeah, exactly. 959 00:57:15,168 --> 00:57:19,571 So in that example, we talked about DC fast charging between cities. 960 00:57:20,412 --> 00:57:23,414 You know, there's been a lot of the news like recently Chicago, and I've heard a 961 00:57:23,414 --> 00:57:25,095 lot about Brooklyn specifically. 962 00:57:25,095 --> 00:57:27,557 If you have an EV, it's really hard to find. 963 00:57:27,977 --> 00:57:31,039 If you don't have level two, you're pretty much, you're out of luck. 964 00:57:31,220 --> 00:57:33,741 And especially DC fast charging. 965 00:57:33,822 --> 00:57:38,285 And I realized once again, we're kind of, we've got so much we can talk about, but 966 00:57:38,285 --> 00:57:42,747 like at a high level, are there any things for an inner kind of like, 967 00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:47,710 inside of a city center when building DC fast charging to be aware of that we might 968 00:57:47,710 --> 00:57:50,515 not have covered in that recent exam. 969 00:57:51,122 --> 00:57:56,306 Yeah, I would say that in many urban areas, doing DC fast charging is going to 970 00:57:56,306 --> 00:58:02,611 be incredibly difficult if not close to impossible because in dense urban areas, 971 00:58:02,611 --> 00:58:06,234 you already have massive needs for power. 972 00:58:06,234 --> 00:58:12,460 So to put that type of charging into a dense urban area does not necessarily make 973 00:58:12,460 --> 00:58:14,061 so much sense. 974 00:58:14,461 --> 00:58:19,685 And again, keep in mind that people that are coming to charge up quickly... 975 00:58:19,910 --> 00:58:24,692 and to move on to go somewhere quickly, do not necessarily need that. 976 00:58:24,692 --> 00:58:30,594 In an urban setting, it makes more sense to have level two charging, 977 00:58:30,594 --> 00:58:34,776 hypothetically, in apartment buildings or in parking garages. 978 00:58:34,976 --> 00:58:39,678 We won't even get into discussing putting it into parking garages in New York City 979 00:58:39,678 --> 00:58:44,120 and in the five boroughs because that presents a whole host of other problems, 980 00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:48,222 but it would make more sense to have level two charging where people live. 981 00:58:48,222 --> 00:58:51,103 For the most part, and I think this is one of the stats that you've heard, I've 982 00:58:51,103 --> 00:58:55,065 heard, we've all heard this, and I don't know where the numbers come from, but I 983 00:58:55,065 --> 00:59:00,428 think everybody has essentially accepted this as this is the way it is, but 984 00:59:00,428 --> 00:59:06,512 something like 80% of people are charging up their EVs in private homes. 985 00:59:06,612 --> 00:59:08,753 That's where most people are charging up. 986 00:59:08,793 --> 00:59:14,436 So if you can provide EV charging in places where people consistently leave 987 00:59:14,436 --> 00:59:16,937 their cars for extended periods of time. 988 00:59:16,958 --> 00:59:23,404 like in shopping centers, like in apartment buildings, that's where that 989 00:59:23,404 --> 00:59:27,689 kind of makes sense and that goes back to the comment and the little discussion we 990 00:59:27,689 --> 00:59:32,213 had before about the infrastructure matching up to the use case. 991 00:59:32,564 --> 00:59:33,467 Totally. 992 00:59:33,853 --> 00:59:34,503 The, I... 993 00:59:34,503 --> 00:59:38,352 fast charging doesn't necessarily make sense in the middle of Brooklyn. 994 00:59:38,352 --> 00:59:39,513 It just doesn't. 995 00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:41,800 I totally agree with you on that. 996 00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:45,681 I think the reason I bring it up, this wasn't kind of the detail that was getting 997 00:59:45,681 --> 00:59:49,182 a lot of the attention, but obviously the big thing that was happening recently, 998 00:59:49,182 --> 00:59:53,564 like Chicago, I think was everywhere in the EV news, was about people couldn't 999 00:59:53,564 --> 00:59:54,124 charge. 1000 00:59:54,124 --> 00:59:57,565 And the thing that wasn't really being covered was the vast majority of those 1001 00:59:57,565 --> 01:00:02,586 people having issues were actually kind of Uber and Lyft and rideshare drivers who 1002 01:00:02,586 --> 01:00:04,647 don't have a place that they can charge overnight. 1003 01:00:04,647 --> 01:00:07,996 And because they're doing so many, they need, they need. 1004 01:00:07,996 --> 01:00:12,459 a DC fast charter so they can get back on road, make a fare, which totally makes 1005 01:00:12,459 --> 01:00:12,860 sense. 1006 01:00:12,860 --> 01:00:17,423 But I think that what really stood out to me and opened up the question going back 1007 01:00:17,423 --> 01:00:21,567 to fleets is like, in that sort of example, you would have like commercial 1008 01:00:21,567 --> 01:00:24,009 fueling usually for something similar. 1009 01:00:24,009 --> 01:00:28,733 And then that kind of begs the question of like, how are these companies especially 1010 01:00:29,073 --> 01:00:32,496 if they want to do like, how do they I'm trying to think of what the chain is, and 1011 01:00:32,496 --> 01:00:35,238 it might just be here on the West Lake, but like Pacific fueling, which is a 1012 01:00:35,238 --> 01:00:36,959 purely commercial fueling 1013 01:00:37,264 --> 01:00:41,527 Chain that trucks and other like businesses can go to get fuel it really 1014 01:00:41,527 --> 01:00:47,352 does seem like especially in that use case there needs to be a Commercial specific 1015 01:00:47,352 --> 01:00:53,236 charging which has it that it makes sense that regular people one may not need it 1016 01:00:53,236 --> 01:00:56,999 But to it just opens up the charges for those who really do and then they have a 1017 01:00:56,999 --> 01:01:01,362 place that they can go charge I'm curious if that's something you've seen or have 1018 01:01:01,362 --> 01:01:02,643 heard discussions around that. 1019 01:01:02,643 --> 01:01:03,283 Yeah 1020 01:01:03,646 --> 01:01:06,789 I have definitely heard some discussions around that and I have a couple of ideas 1021 01:01:06,789 --> 01:01:09,111 about how that might work well. 1022 01:01:09,111 --> 01:01:12,454 So I'll give you an example of what does not work well, and then I'll give you my 1023 01:01:12,454 --> 01:01:14,316 thoughts of what I think would work well. 1024 01:01:14,316 --> 01:01:19,921 So the example of what I think does not work well is I want you to imagine in your 1025 01:01:19,921 --> 01:01:24,865 head or our listeners should imagine a ride share pickup line in a typical 1026 01:01:24,865 --> 01:01:25,745 airport. 1027 01:01:26,026 --> 01:01:27,887 I'll be traveling to a conference next week. 1028 01:01:27,887 --> 01:01:28,967 I'll be going to an airport. 1029 01:01:28,967 --> 01:01:30,748 I'm sure I'm gonna get to see this, right? 1030 01:01:30,748 --> 01:01:34,490 Every time you travel, you see this on all the rideshare cars come and go this. 1031 01:01:34,511 --> 01:01:42,316 So if you were to put a level two charger in the rideshare pickup line, let me ask 1032 01:01:42,316 --> 01:01:43,376 you this question, Chase. 1033 01:01:43,376 --> 01:01:47,779 Do you think that would make sense when you know that your typical Uber and Lyft 1034 01:01:47,779 --> 01:01:52,301 driver is not allowed to sit and wait for you for more than five minutes? 1035 01:01:52,726 --> 01:01:55,928 Does a level two charger in the ride share pickup line make any sense? 1036 01:01:55,928 --> 01:01:57,068 No, it does not. 1037 01:01:57,068 --> 01:01:59,990 Yet I have seen this in an airport. 1038 01:01:59,990 --> 01:02:02,372 Now that to me is just, it's stupid. 1039 01:02:02,372 --> 01:02:05,854 It's a dumb, it's what I would call a dumb deployment. 1040 01:02:05,854 --> 01:02:06,855 Makes no sense. 1041 01:02:06,855 --> 01:02:09,616 All right, now. 1042 01:02:09,817 --> 01:02:10,471 Maybe. 1043 01:02:10,471 --> 01:02:12,873 you've got, you've got to have something that's like, right. 1044 01:02:12,873 --> 01:02:16,055 And even then that, yeah, I, I agree. 1045 01:02:16,554 --> 01:02:19,515 Even level three, they're not sitting there for more than five minutes. 1046 01:02:19,596 --> 01:02:24,658 Even a level three right now with the existing technology and not everybody has 1047 01:02:24,658 --> 01:02:32,062 a Porsche take-hand that can do it, but you still have to do it for 20 minutes. 1048 01:02:32,062 --> 01:02:33,263 It's a stretch. 1049 01:02:34,063 --> 01:02:39,406 All right, so now let me give you what I think is the way to solve that problem. 1050 01:02:40,087 --> 01:02:43,508 Now you have all these people that are coming to do the ride-share pickups. 1051 01:02:43,689 --> 01:02:44,649 They're coming. 1052 01:02:45,482 --> 01:02:46,765 They're picking up their passengers. 1053 01:02:46,765 --> 01:02:48,809 They can only stay for five minutes. 1054 01:02:50,814 --> 01:02:57,719 What if there was a place nearby where they could actually sit? 1055 01:02:57,839 --> 01:03:04,745 So I'll give you the example of, I live in New York and there is a cell phone pickup 1056 01:03:04,745 --> 01:03:09,549 lot at JFK Airport, leaving aside the fact that I don't know how many people actually 1057 01:03:09,549 --> 01:03:13,652 use it because when you drive by on the highway, you see dozens and dozens and 1058 01:03:13,652 --> 01:03:18,096 dozens of cars sitting on the side of the highway, waiting to get into the airport, 1059 01:03:18,096 --> 01:03:19,897 not using the cell phone. 1060 01:03:20,030 --> 01:03:24,353 pick up parking lot, which by the way, the advertise is free, but I guess people 1061 01:03:24,353 --> 01:03:28,115 don't use it because probably once you get into that pick up lot, it's a pain in the 1062 01:03:28,115 --> 01:03:29,476 neck to get to your terminal. 1063 01:03:29,476 --> 01:03:33,399 So people prefer to sit outside of the airport and wait for their friends and 1064 01:03:33,399 --> 01:03:35,981 family to call them and then they go in and pick them up. 1065 01:03:35,981 --> 01:03:42,766 But let's just pretend that there was an offsite parking facility where you could 1066 01:03:42,766 --> 01:03:47,669 sit, where you might be sitting as you wait to get your hails. 1067 01:03:48,242 --> 01:03:52,765 where there is room, where there is space, where there is infrastructure, where you 1068 01:03:52,765 --> 01:03:54,806 could put in chargers. 1069 01:03:54,806 --> 01:03:59,349 Would it make more sense to put them in that place and let the rideshare people 1070 01:03:59,349 --> 01:04:01,551 sit in that parking facility? 1071 01:04:01,591 --> 01:04:03,932 They can charge up while they wait. 1072 01:04:04,533 --> 01:04:07,035 And then when they're ready to go to the airport, they just go. 1073 01:04:07,035 --> 01:04:11,098 And not only that, they probably either charged up fully or close to 80% or 1074 01:04:11,098 --> 01:04:12,318 something like that. 1075 01:04:12,318 --> 01:04:15,581 And now they can continue to go about their day and about their business in 1076 01:04:15,581 --> 01:04:17,194 terms of being able to charge up. 1077 01:04:17,194 --> 01:04:22,555 So it would make more sense to have an offsite location where you could do level 1078 01:04:22,555 --> 01:04:27,836 two or maybe even level three charging that would match the use case there as 1079 01:04:27,836 --> 01:04:30,877 opposed to putting it in a place where it really makes no sense. 1080 01:04:30,937 --> 01:04:34,898 So I don't know if there are people out there that think that you might have a 1081 01:04:34,898 --> 01:04:38,819 piece of property where something like that makes sense, come and talk to me, 1082 01:04:38,819 --> 01:04:39,019 right? 1083 01:04:39,019 --> 01:04:43,061 Cause I know people that might be willing to work with you to do something like 1084 01:04:43,061 --> 01:04:43,821 that, right? 1085 01:04:43,821 --> 01:04:46,181 So those are the kinds of things. 1086 01:04:46,181 --> 01:04:46,881 So... 1087 01:04:47,326 --> 01:04:51,829 That would be an example of what doesn't make sense, but what could potentially 1088 01:04:51,829 --> 01:04:52,430 make sense. 1089 01:04:52,430 --> 01:04:56,794 And that would be a good way to kind of solve that issue. 1090 01:04:56,794 --> 01:05:00,196 Those people would then have a place to sit where they can charge up. 1091 01:05:00,196 --> 01:05:04,700 Hopefully it would be a place where there's light and there are bathrooms and 1092 01:05:04,700 --> 01:05:09,544 it's safe and so on and so forth, but where it would make sense for them to be 1093 01:05:09,544 --> 01:05:14,528 sitting and charging, as opposed to putting the charger in the pickup line 1094 01:05:14,528 --> 01:05:16,189 where it makes no sense. 1095 01:05:16,308 --> 01:05:17,128 Right. 1096 01:05:17,568 --> 01:05:20,651 And no, I completely agree with you and that makes a lot of sense. 1097 01:05:20,651 --> 01:05:24,513 I think one of the other interesting things I've seen, I think that makes 1098 01:05:24,513 --> 01:05:24,733 sense. 1099 01:05:24,733 --> 01:05:30,878 And then I was actually at a Sonic drive-through on a road trip and they had 1100 01:05:30,878 --> 01:05:36,061 one in Boise where there was like eight Tesla superchargers and they were kind of 1101 01:05:36,061 --> 01:05:38,343 the newer higher power one, but it also just kind of made sense. 1102 01:05:38,343 --> 01:05:43,646 People would come in, get food, they'd charge, but and I think this is another 1103 01:05:43,646 --> 01:05:45,384 thing I kind of want to talk to you real quick, but 1104 01:05:45,384 --> 01:05:50,014 Obviously Tesla has it so it's like you go in, you charge, they have fees if you're 1105 01:05:50,014 --> 01:05:53,442 there charging too long and all this stuff, which I think is great to help with 1106 01:05:53,442 --> 01:05:56,054 kind of forcing to move people through. 1107 01:05:56,054 --> 01:05:58,996 incentivize people to move their cars. 1108 01:05:59,057 --> 01:05:59,484 Yes. 1109 01:05:59,484 --> 01:06:02,986 And I think naturally just once again, that's kind of a good fusion. 1110 01:06:02,986 --> 01:06:05,787 I like someone gets lunch, they have their lunch, they're off. 1111 01:06:06,007 --> 01:06:09,389 And I think specifically what you're talking about for like the commercial 1112 01:06:09,389 --> 01:06:14,852 application, that use case even better, but you do see still from some of the car 1113 01:06:14,852 --> 01:06:21,116 brands, they offer the free charging, the free, uh, kind of like, okay, you can have 1114 01:06:21,116 --> 01:06:22,456 for like two years. 1115 01:06:22,616 --> 01:06:24,197 Have you dealt with that at all? 1116 01:06:24,197 --> 01:06:28,679 Or do you see that as kind of something that's a short-term sales push that. 1117 01:06:28,776 --> 01:06:33,941 really is gonna be probably not the best for getting that throughput and really 1118 01:06:33,941 --> 01:06:36,383 creating the best EV charging experience. 1119 01:06:36,850 --> 01:06:43,874 Yeah, I think as a short-term solution, it makes sense. 1120 01:06:44,775 --> 01:06:51,460 From the perspective of the car companies that are offering it, I think it indicates 1121 01:06:51,460 --> 01:06:59,125 that they are acknowledging that publicly available EV charging might not be so 1122 01:06:59,125 --> 01:07:01,627 great or easily available. 1123 01:07:02,067 --> 01:07:05,289 And if they, and at the end of the day, 1124 01:07:05,450 --> 01:07:11,833 They want their customers to be happy and excited about their product that they're 1125 01:07:11,833 --> 01:07:13,053 selling to them. 1126 01:07:13,194 --> 01:07:20,298 So offering that to them, I think, is a great idea because it keeps your customers 1127 01:07:20,298 --> 01:07:27,241 happy and as a practical matter, it keeps their cars charged up and do you think 1128 01:07:27,241 --> 01:07:30,943 that they're gonna tell their friends and family, hey, the experience with car 1129 01:07:30,943 --> 01:07:34,974 company so-and-so is excellent because I get the charge up for free. 1130 01:07:34,974 --> 01:07:38,320 By the way, there are people that are on that legacy plan with Tesla and they love 1131 01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:42,588 to brag about it because they're grandfathered in and wherever they go, it 1132 01:07:42,588 --> 01:07:44,391 doesn't cost them anything. 1133 01:07:44,391 --> 01:07:45,188 God bless them. 1134 01:07:45,188 --> 01:07:46,309 totally yeah, exactly. 1135 01:07:46,309 --> 01:07:49,992 I think that's totally true too, because like it's especially for people who may be 1136 01:07:49,992 --> 01:07:53,655 coming to like electric vehicle for the first time, the idea that not only am I 1137 01:07:53,655 --> 01:07:58,819 saving money by being electric from gas, the fact that when I go fast charge, it's 1138 01:07:58,819 --> 01:08:03,563 even free and saving even more money, I think kind of is a good incentive. 1139 01:08:03,563 --> 01:08:05,084 And obviously, they talk about a lot. 1140 01:08:05,084 --> 01:08:10,008 But it also is like almost creating the wrong incentives for the larger EV 1141 01:08:10,008 --> 01:08:11,069 drivers. 1142 01:08:11,069 --> 01:08:14,132 But at the same time, and in some ways between the 1143 01:08:14,132 --> 01:08:17,656 just general gas savings of even paying for electricity and not having to do the 1144 01:08:17,656 --> 01:08:18,657 oil changes. 1145 01:08:18,657 --> 01:08:21,039 That unto itself, I think is a huge plus. 1146 01:08:21,601 --> 01:08:23,994 But yeah, I totally get what you're saying there. 1147 01:08:23,994 --> 01:08:26,141 tell you what the problem is with that though. 1148 01:08:26,445 --> 01:08:28,853 There is no such thing as a free lunch. 1149 01:08:29,536 --> 01:08:30,499 For sure. 1150 01:08:31,853 --> 01:08:32,917 When I think. 1151 01:08:33,430 --> 01:08:36,072 day, somebody is paying for that. 1152 01:08:36,072 --> 01:08:41,995 Whether that will continue to be viable over the long term, I don't know. 1153 01:08:41,995 --> 01:08:49,299 My hope is that the state of publicly available infrastructure for EVs would 1154 01:08:49,299 --> 01:08:56,063 improve to the point where you might not necessarily still have to provide that, or 1155 01:08:56,063 --> 01:09:01,185 it could be the sort of thing where you just might provide it as... 1156 01:09:01,294 --> 01:09:03,675 a premium service. 1157 01:09:03,716 --> 01:09:10,401 If you think about the way the airline industry works, you basically have the 1158 01:09:10,401 --> 01:09:15,245 same flight whether you sit in first class, business class, or coach. 1159 01:09:15,306 --> 01:09:20,790 But for a couple of extra premium services, people are willing to pay a lot 1160 01:09:20,790 --> 01:09:22,612 more money for something like that. 1161 01:09:22,612 --> 01:09:29,406 It's entirely possible that maybe for some of the higher end manufacturers that they 1162 01:09:29,406 --> 01:09:33,268 that might be something that they can offer to their customers. 1163 01:09:33,268 --> 01:09:39,033 But again, you'd have to be super picky and super specific about where you would 1164 01:09:39,033 --> 01:09:43,195 choose to make that kind of free service available. 1165 01:09:43,216 --> 01:09:48,980 Because I don't think that if you were to be doing that across the board, we'll use 1166 01:09:48,980 --> 01:09:54,184 Porsche for example, I don't think that Porsche wants to provide free electric 1167 01:09:54,184 --> 01:09:57,045 charging to every single one of its customers. 1168 01:09:57,078 --> 01:10:00,000 across the entirety of the United States. 1169 01:10:00,140 --> 01:10:02,902 That just might not be a good business plan. 1170 01:10:03,283 --> 01:10:07,346 But as a premium service in certain neighborhoods or in certain states or in 1171 01:10:07,346 --> 01:10:11,529 certain cities, that might be a good sales pitch. 1172 01:10:12,108 --> 01:10:16,870 when I think it comes back to the whole business model of it and like where I 1173 01:10:16,870 --> 01:10:21,493 guess real quickly, because I realized we were coming up on the time and this will 1174 01:10:21,493 --> 01:10:28,656 be the, yeah, these will be the final questions, but first, what do you, for 1175 01:10:28,656 --> 01:10:29,897 sure, for sure. 1176 01:10:29,917 --> 01:10:37,141 No, and it's always changing, but yeah, I'm kind of curious on what you think, if 1177 01:10:37,141 --> 01:10:41,903 you can share this, what is the best and what is the worst business model 1178 01:10:42,088 --> 01:10:48,075 for an EV charging company, I guess. 1179 01:10:48,095 --> 01:10:51,279 Because I still struggle with the margins and exactly what you're talking about 1180 01:10:51,279 --> 01:10:51,540 right now. 1181 01:10:51,540 --> 01:10:56,105 It's like someone has to pay it in the end and that comes at a different cost. 1182 01:10:56,486 --> 01:11:00,991 And whether it's costing the money or the service quality. 1183 01:11:01,894 --> 01:11:07,536 Yeah, I think right now it's pretty hard to answer that question. 1184 01:11:07,937 --> 01:11:15,561 And unfortunately, I feel as if I need to put on the lawyer hat a little bit and to 1185 01:11:15,561 --> 01:11:20,404 use something that as lawyers we say frequently, which is the answer to that 1186 01:11:20,404 --> 01:11:23,586 question, it depends. 1187 01:11:23,586 --> 01:11:24,266 It depends. 1188 01:11:24,266 --> 01:11:29,189 Because you can have an ideal business model. 1189 01:11:29,189 --> 01:11:30,409 An ideal... 1190 01:11:30,870 --> 01:11:38,015 legal structure in one particular place, but it might not be the same thing across 1191 01:11:38,015 --> 01:11:39,175 the street. 1192 01:11:39,175 --> 01:11:43,959 The example that I'll give you for that is I'm sure you've been to a Starbucks. 1193 01:11:43,959 --> 01:11:48,942 If you've been to any big city, I'm sure you've seen, especially in a place like 1194 01:11:48,942 --> 01:11:54,326 Manhattan, you may have several of them within a three or four block radius. 1195 01:11:54,466 --> 01:11:59,509 Each one of those stores is servicing a different customer. 1196 01:12:00,618 --> 01:12:05,341 different sets of return on their investment. 1197 01:12:05,341 --> 01:12:11,647 They might even be offering different drinks and different foods because in the 1198 01:12:11,647 --> 01:12:17,311 little market in which they inhabit on that spot on the block, it's all 1199 01:12:17,311 --> 01:12:18,212 different. 1200 01:12:18,552 --> 01:12:24,517 And so just because you have an ideal business or legal structure over here does 1201 01:12:24,517 --> 01:12:28,360 not mean that necessarily plays well somewhere else. 1202 01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:29,881 It's really gonna be 1203 01:12:30,130 --> 01:12:35,511 location dependent, it's really gonna be use case dependent, it's really going to 1204 01:12:35,511 --> 01:12:42,593 be power availability dependent, and when you throw all that stuff into the mix, if 1205 01:12:42,593 --> 01:12:47,155 somebody were to come to me, and let's just use the example that we used before 1206 01:12:47,155 --> 01:12:52,136 of the DCFC fast charging along the mobility corridor, I could certainly come 1207 01:12:52,136 --> 01:12:56,737 up with ways in which I can say, these are the ideal ways in which you would wanna do 1208 01:12:56,737 --> 01:12:57,342 this. 1209 01:12:57,342 --> 01:13:01,505 But if you were to flip that and you were to go into an urban area and say, here's 1210 01:13:01,505 --> 01:13:05,008 an apartment building, my answer to some of those questions and how you would 1211 01:13:05,008 --> 01:13:07,589 structure this could be completely different. 1212 01:13:08,168 --> 01:13:11,536 No, and I had a feeling that's what you're gonna say, but I wanted to ask it because 1213 01:13:11,536 --> 01:13:13,820 it's a question I get asked a lot, right? 1214 01:13:14,343 --> 01:13:16,667 No, it's, right. 1215 01:13:17,551 --> 01:13:17,809 Yeah. 1216 01:13:17,809 --> 01:13:20,133 a perfect answer and a perfect business model. 1217 01:13:22,553 --> 01:13:26,542 It turns out these are complicated things and that's why there isn't a perfect 1218 01:13:26,542 --> 01:13:27,603 business model. 1219 01:13:27,898 --> 01:13:29,719 no necessarily one answer. 1220 01:13:29,719 --> 01:13:33,900 One of the things that I think that I would really like to see and I feel like 1221 01:13:33,900 --> 01:13:39,502 that we will start to see this, I think as the industry matures and as the quality of 1222 01:13:39,502 --> 01:13:43,703 the infrastructure improves and as the quality of the vehicles improves and as 1223 01:13:43,703 --> 01:13:48,525 the battery technology improves and as the software improves and as we start to see 1224 01:13:48,525 --> 01:13:51,890 more standards and all of that stuff starts to get better. 1225 01:13:51,890 --> 01:13:57,412 I think what we will start to see is a situation where the business models will 1226 01:13:57,412 --> 01:14:00,113 start to be a little bit more consistent. 1227 01:14:00,273 --> 01:14:01,994 That will happen over time. 1228 01:14:01,994 --> 01:14:05,115 That definitely happened in the telecom industry. 1229 01:14:05,115 --> 01:14:11,758 Just to give you one little taste of that, from agreements from 20-25 years ago, you 1230 01:14:11,758 --> 01:14:17,261 would sometimes see where maybe they might be paying rent, but let's say they weren't 1231 01:14:17,261 --> 01:14:19,654 paying rent, but what they were offering. 1232 01:14:19,654 --> 01:14:24,056 was a free line of service and a free cell phone or for up to like three family 1233 01:14:24,056 --> 01:14:25,496 members or something like that. 1234 01:14:25,496 --> 01:14:26,417 That's what they did. 1235 01:14:26,417 --> 01:14:30,238 That is not a business model that would fly in 2024. 1236 01:14:31,259 --> 01:14:36,661 And in that industry right now, by and large and almost without exception, 1237 01:14:36,661 --> 01:14:42,604 everybody is paying rent to the people who are putting the infrastructure on their 1238 01:14:42,604 --> 01:14:43,244 property. 1239 01:14:43,244 --> 01:14:46,685 That is the way that industry has shook out. 1240 01:14:47,018 --> 01:14:50,739 There's very little of the revenue sharing other than the little example that I gave 1241 01:14:50,739 --> 01:14:55,160 you before, but that's what consistently works. 1242 01:14:55,180 --> 01:14:59,161 There's still some leasing models, still some licensing models, still some easement 1243 01:14:59,161 --> 01:15:05,323 models, still some combos of that, but that's generally what you see. 1244 01:15:05,403 --> 01:15:11,004 Right now in the EV industry, it's still too young and too immature where we don't 1245 01:15:11,004 --> 01:15:15,365 have a consistent model yet, but I feel like we will get there. 1246 01:15:15,398 --> 01:15:23,303 And the company that figures out what that model is, combined with consistently doing 1247 01:15:23,303 --> 01:15:27,086 their homework and doing their due diligence, those will be the companies 1248 01:15:27,086 --> 01:15:31,889 that are ultimately going to succeed at this enormously. 1249 01:15:32,768 --> 01:15:33,388 For sure. 1250 01:15:33,388 --> 01:15:37,229 And I think that's why I think there is definitely a model there. 1251 01:15:37,229 --> 01:15:40,130 But it's also interesting to me, like even the traditional fueling companies, they 1252 01:15:40,130 --> 01:15:41,791 don't make money on gas. 1253 01:15:41,791 --> 01:15:43,731 They, if anything, sometimes lose it. 1254 01:15:43,731 --> 01:15:45,412 They make all their, right. 1255 01:15:45,412 --> 01:15:47,512 They make all their money on concessions. 1256 01:15:48,093 --> 01:15:52,094 And so you're finally seeing some of these larger fueling companies kind of get in 1257 01:15:52,094 --> 01:15:53,414 that space, at least domestically. 1258 01:15:53,414 --> 01:15:56,459 They've already done that to some extent internationally, but 1259 01:15:56,459 --> 01:16:01,178 are a lot of startups that are looking at that very model, by the way. 1260 01:16:01,178 --> 01:16:02,601 They're all over the place. 1261 01:16:02,703 --> 01:16:03,403 for sure. 1262 01:16:03,403 --> 01:16:05,846 And I, I mean, I feel like I could keep talking with you about this. 1263 01:16:05,846 --> 01:16:09,490 We haven't even touched like the Neve funding and all of that stuff. 1264 01:16:10,371 --> 01:16:10,676 But 1265 01:16:10,676 --> 01:16:12,758 go for hours. 1266 01:16:12,758 --> 01:16:16,208 But we have to be conscious of time and everyone's tolerance. 1267 01:16:16,208 --> 01:16:17,108 I know. 1268 01:16:18,209 --> 01:16:20,650 I'll leave it at one final thing and then we will. 1269 01:16:20,650 --> 01:16:21,650 We will have to cut this off. 1270 01:16:21,650 --> 01:16:25,811 Unfortunately, one kind of general question I ask is of most people is just 1271 01:16:25,811 --> 01:16:31,753 like any recommendations they do have for government or for the public sector to do 1272 01:16:31,753 --> 01:16:32,413 better on these things. 1273 01:16:32,413 --> 01:16:36,094 But I think I'll tie it into the Navy thing where we're seeing a lot of these 1274 01:16:36,094 --> 01:16:39,955 Navy funding and other just kind of general state government funding being 1275 01:16:39,955 --> 01:16:41,475 tied with certain. 1276 01:16:43,592 --> 01:16:46,214 Now uptime things, and it kind of goes back to some of those terms you were 1277 01:16:46,214 --> 01:16:50,257 talking about and the experience that was created that they have those. 1278 01:16:50,578 --> 01:16:53,800 Is there anything that, like, if you had to choose one thing that you'd like to see 1279 01:16:53,800 --> 01:16:57,423 in that kind of stuff, like, it needs to have uptime or it needs to have some sort 1280 01:16:57,423 --> 01:17:01,287 of thing that we've obviously seen has burnt us that we need to have in these 1281 01:17:01,287 --> 01:17:02,567 things moving forward. 1282 01:17:02,934 --> 01:17:04,474 Yeah, this is a fabulous question. 1283 01:17:04,474 --> 01:17:09,215 We could probably spend an entire podcast on this topic alone, but I'm not going to. 1284 01:17:09,916 --> 01:17:12,317 I'm not going to, I'm gonna answer it. 1285 01:17:12,317 --> 01:17:15,958 I'll tell you the short and quick answer as to what I would like to see that would 1286 01:17:15,958 --> 01:17:17,498 really make a difference. 1287 01:17:17,998 --> 01:17:27,481 I think that if the funding for deployments was tied to... 1288 01:17:29,794 --> 01:17:37,446 utilization, uptime, and consistent maintenance over time using a standard 1289 01:17:37,446 --> 01:17:41,673 that everybody could understand or a metric that everybody could understand and 1290 01:17:41,673 --> 01:17:42,633 follow. 1291 01:17:44,356 --> 01:17:45,346 Plus... 1292 01:17:48,710 --> 01:17:54,554 incentives for accountability and you put that together, you'd have a much better 1293 01:17:54,554 --> 01:17:55,494 situation. 1294 01:17:55,494 --> 01:18:03,680 I'll give you an example so that way we can get past the little bit of legalese 1295 01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:05,361 there. 1296 01:18:05,361 --> 01:18:11,725 If you were to hand out money to people not when they put the chargers in, but if 1297 01:18:11,725 --> 01:18:12,365 they 1298 01:18:18,366 --> 01:18:24,130 and when they broke that you consistently fixed it within 24 hours. 1299 01:18:24,130 --> 01:18:28,714 And you only provided that money to the company that put the infrastructure in the 1300 01:18:28,714 --> 01:18:32,697 ground or to the property owner that was getting the benefit of the incentive or 1301 01:18:32,697 --> 01:18:37,420 the tax break, not at the beginning, but after they showed consistently that 1302 01:18:37,420 --> 01:18:42,464 they've been doing this over time, then what would start to happen is that people 1303 01:18:42,464 --> 01:18:44,665 would actually think that you 1304 01:18:44,954 --> 01:18:49,296 a lot more about where they were putting the infrastructure to start with. 1305 01:18:49,296 --> 01:18:53,538 Because if they knew that they're not going to get the money unless we show a 1306 01:18:53,538 --> 01:18:59,061 certain level of utilization, uptime, and maintenance, then they're just not going 1307 01:18:59,061 --> 01:19:03,524 to put it in the middle of nowhere where it won't be utilized, where we won't fix 1308 01:19:03,524 --> 01:19:07,826 it, and where we won't be providing spare parts. 1309 01:19:07,826 --> 01:19:09,387 They just won't do that, right? 1310 01:19:09,387 --> 01:19:12,269 And the situation that you have right now is that you have none of that. 1311 01:19:12,269 --> 01:19:13,842 So here's one of the problems. 1312 01:19:13,842 --> 01:19:19,063 is that if I'm not mistaken that the new Neve funding requires 97% uptime and the 1313 01:19:19,063 --> 01:19:22,104 companies that are now let's say fixing the broken chargers, which again we're 1314 01:19:22,104 --> 01:19:27,766 going to have a whole discussion on that, fixing the broken chargers has to provide 1315 01:19:27,766 --> 01:19:28,726 five years of maintenance. 1316 01:19:28,726 --> 01:19:33,128 But let me ask you this, what happens when it's not up 97% of the time? 1317 01:19:33,128 --> 01:19:37,189 What happens when they don't provide five years worth of maintenance? 1318 01:19:37,889 --> 01:19:39,389 They've already gotten the money. 1319 01:19:41,098 --> 01:19:42,678 So are they going to write? 1320 01:19:42,998 --> 01:19:45,680 Therein lies the crux of the problem. 1321 01:19:45,680 --> 01:19:50,802 So if we tie the incentives and we tie the funding to something like that, people 1322 01:19:50,802 --> 01:19:55,204 will make much smarter decisions about where they deploy the infrastructure to 1323 01:19:55,204 --> 01:19:56,265 start with. 1324 01:19:56,445 --> 01:20:01,588 And secondly is that if you are going to have a requirement like 97% of time and 1325 01:20:01,588 --> 01:20:05,809 five years worth of maintenance, you have to have a metric. 1326 01:20:05,926 --> 01:20:10,908 And then you also have to have a way to incentivize people to actually follow 1327 01:20:10,908 --> 01:20:11,708 that. 1328 01:20:11,748 --> 01:20:17,110 If you have a rule for anything, pick and choose whatever it is that you want. 1329 01:20:17,230 --> 01:20:21,532 But if you break the rule and you never get into any kind of trouble for breaking 1330 01:20:21,532 --> 01:20:23,853 the rule, are you going to break the rule? 1331 01:20:23,913 --> 01:20:29,495 Yes, you're going to break the rule because nothing happens to you if you 1332 01:20:29,495 --> 01:20:30,815 don't follow it. 1333 01:20:30,956 --> 01:20:35,077 So we need to have rules and regulations in place. 1334 01:20:35,197 --> 01:20:35,997 That. 1335 01:20:36,370 --> 01:20:40,151 require people to follow them and if they don't follow them, they get into trouble 1336 01:20:40,151 --> 01:20:41,471 for not following them. 1337 01:20:41,471 --> 01:20:45,532 And not only that, but we also have to have rules and funding in place that 1338 01:20:45,532 --> 01:20:50,273 actually incentivize good behavior versus poor behavior. 1339 01:20:50,553 --> 01:20:54,675 So if the money is only handed out after you show that it's being used, it's being 1340 01:20:54,675 --> 01:20:58,616 maintained, and you're fixing it quickly, then you will put it in a place where you 1341 01:20:58,616 --> 01:21:02,037 know it will be used, where it will be maintained, and where you will have the 1342 01:21:02,037 --> 01:21:03,697 ability to fix it quickly. 1343 01:21:03,697 --> 01:21:05,497 As opposed to what we have right now. 1344 01:21:05,662 --> 01:21:09,187 We still put it right down in the ground and by the way, we might be putting money 1345 01:21:09,187 --> 01:21:12,632 back into chargers we never should have put into the ground to begin with. 1346 01:21:12,632 --> 01:21:16,798 But don't worry, we have 97% uptime and we have to give five years worth of 1347 01:21:16,798 --> 01:21:17,439 maintenance. 1348 01:21:17,439 --> 01:21:18,921 So we're all good. 1349 01:21:18,921 --> 01:21:19,781 We're not. 1350 01:21:20,997 --> 01:21:24,439 I think that's a great point and probably the best place to end this. 1351 01:21:24,540 --> 01:21:25,961 But I think you're totally right. 1352 01:21:25,961 --> 01:21:29,944 There needs to be an element of like maybe some of the, at least some of it upfront, 1353 01:21:29,944 --> 01:21:34,488 some of it over time, because we've talked to other people on the show too that we're 1354 01:21:34,488 --> 01:21:37,030 expecting to see a lot of consolidation in the space. 1355 01:21:37,030 --> 01:21:39,893 There's all these people that have gone money, that have had things and now 1356 01:21:39,893 --> 01:21:45,017 they're being caught off guard with the long-term kind of actual maintenance of 1357 01:21:45,017 --> 01:21:46,078 this business. 1358 01:21:46,078 --> 01:21:47,856 So I think... 1359 01:21:47,856 --> 01:21:51,281 I think we're going to be seeing a lot more in this and I think that's a great 1360 01:21:51,281 --> 01:21:54,485 idea and I hope that is what happens if anyone's listening. 1361 01:21:54,485 --> 01:21:56,108 That has influence? 1362 01:21:56,108 --> 01:21:56,539 Yes. 1363 01:21:56,539 --> 01:21:59,561 the federal government or any of the lobbying firms out there that you're 1364 01:21:59,561 --> 01:22:02,522 listening to this, we have a great idea. 1365 01:22:02,522 --> 01:22:04,904 You just got to do it that way and then maybe it will work. 1366 01:22:04,904 --> 01:22:08,325 Or the next time that funding comes out, that's how you have to set it up. 1367 01:22:08,352 --> 01:22:08,753 for sure. 1368 01:22:08,753 --> 01:22:11,479 But Jason, we definitely have to have you back soon. 1369 01:22:11,741 --> 01:22:14,247 I just want to say thank you so much for coming on today. 1370 01:22:14,309 --> 01:22:17,055 And with that, we'll let you get going. 1371 01:22:17,494 --> 01:22:18,414 Thank you. 1372 01:22:19,457 --> 01:22:20,720 Truly, it's been a pleasure. 1373 01:22:20,720 --> 01:22:21,421 Thank you, Chase. 1374 01:22:21,421 --> 01:22:22,624 This has been awesome. 1375 01:22:22,624 --> 01:22:23,537 Thank you so much. 1376 01:22:28,825 --> 01:22:32,565 Thank you for joining us on this insightful journey through the intricacies 1377 01:22:32,565 --> 01:22:36,185 of electric vehicle charging and the decisions that need to be made when 1378 01:22:36,185 --> 01:22:39,185 planning them today with our guest, Jason Goldfarb. 1379 01:22:39,185 --> 01:22:42,605 We hope you've gained valuable perspectives on the ever evolving energy 1380 01:22:42,605 --> 01:22:46,625 and electric vehicle charging landscape, along with the crucial role grid 1381 01:22:46,625 --> 01:22:49,445 connectivity plays in shaping our sustainable future. 1382 01:22:49,445 --> 01:22:53,825 If you want to learn more and reach out to Jason, please check today's show notes. 1383 01:22:53,825 --> 01:22:55,929 He's a great resource and always. 1384 01:22:55,929 --> 01:23:00,019 posting new ideas and sharing some of his updates on LinkedIn as well, which you can 1385 01:23:00,019 --> 01:23:01,969 find in today's show notes. 1386 01:23:02,009 --> 01:23:05,609 If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe to the Great 1387 01:23:05,609 --> 01:23:07,909 Connections podcast and leave us a review. 1388 01:23:07,909 --> 01:23:12,019 Your feedback is invaluable and it helps us continue bringing you engaging content 1389 01:23:12,019 --> 01:23:14,109 and expert analysis. 1390 01:23:14,629 --> 01:23:17,709 Remember the power of knowledge is amplified when shared. 1391 01:23:17,709 --> 01:23:21,329 So take a moment to share this episode with a friend, colleague or family member 1392 01:23:21,329 --> 01:23:25,527 who shares your passion for energy and clean transportation. 1393 01:23:25,657 --> 01:23:28,797 Together we can spark meaningful conversations and contribute to a more 1394 01:23:28,797 --> 01:23:30,957 informed and empowered community. 1395 01:23:30,957 --> 01:23:34,607 Stay connected with us on social media for updates on upcoming episodes and 1396 01:23:34,607 --> 01:23:36,037 additional content. 1397 01:23:36,037 --> 01:23:40,397 Follow us on YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, among others, to be part of our growing 1398 01:23:40,397 --> 01:23:41,437 community. 1399 01:23:41,437 --> 01:23:45,747 As we conclude this episode, we express our gratitude to Jason for sharing his 1400 01:23:45,747 --> 01:23:48,377 expertise and experience with us today. 1401 01:23:48,477 --> 01:23:50,897 Thank you for tuning in and charging forward with us. 1402 01:23:50,897 --> 01:23:54,356 Until next week, this is the Great Connections podcast signing off.