Daniel  00:00
To feel okay, you need to be okay with yourself, right? And I didn't realize that. I never looked there. I thought I was okay with myself. Again, that was this delusion that I was I was living in. Eventually, I had a night where I'd had way too much to drink, and when I was in that state, I always believed, not just felt like I was okay to drive. It didn't matter how much I had had, who was with me, family in the car. I believe like no, I'm I'm fine. Thank God nothing happened. There was never a DUI for me. There was never an accident. But it got to the point at home where my wife she was done. I'm not doing this anymore. I hope you can get help, and I hope you can go do that, kind of for your kids and for yourself. But like, this has to stop. Throwing that flag on the field was what started to wake me up. I had enough clarity to recognize I've been through it so many times, and that all I needed was some space from whatever the event was, and I could start to rationalize and manipulate and work my way back into that loop, and I would do it forever until it killed me, or until I actually did experience some horrible tragedy that couldn't be undone. So I was honestly I was so lucky that it went down the way it did. Right there was where I decided I need help, and I made the decision to go to a facility for 30 days-the best decision I ever made.

Steven Evans  01:44
Thank you so much, Dan, for being here and for bringing your story honestly and openly to our audiences. I'm super excited to speak with you to have this opportunity. I would love to spend time over the next, you know, 45 minutes or an hour just going through the transition or crucible moments that have made you into the man that you are today, and providing explicit visibility for our audience around really those transition moments that helped you build your identity. Those things around you know jumping from home to college or to work, and then from work to finding a partner, and you know finding then after that children, and then even maybe watching those children grow up and leave home. So those are sort of the transitions that we'll go through. And would love to have you first before we dive in. Maybe 10 seconds, if you wouldn't mind just introducing yourself.

Daniel  02:32
Yeah, of course. My name is Dan Fulop Ferlano. I think, like all of us, I'm a lot of things. I'm a recently published author. I'm a longtime marketing executive, father of three, a lifelong musician. I am in recovery, and I'm very happy to be here today.

Steven Evans  02:49
Thank you. Why not you know take us back to the very very beginning? You know, I'm thinking around 1617, 18. Talk to us about the man that you were then, and and what you thought you were becoming?

Daniel  03:02
Yeah, that's a great question. It's funny using a term like the man I was then. I don't think I thought of myself as a man. I think I, to me, that was some ideal that was far off in the future. And I think growing up, I never really got an introduction into what that means to be a man. So I grew up in the Midwest in a suburb of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, a fairly unremarkable kind of rural-ish suburb, and in what I would call a pretty typical Midwestern home. And so growing up, you know, we had a lot of fun. I remember a lot of laughter, but what what was missing was really any open discussion about emotion, and I know you know for a lot of people growing up in that time and in that area, that's a real common theme. So, emotion was generally something to be avoided, and I think I learned early on that feelings were something I was supposed to keep to myself. And so, growing up, because I was keeping feelings to myself, I also, you know, I think I had a lot of questions. I really wanted to understand how the the world worked around me, but I was afraid to ask. And so, for me, that really led to anxiety as a child, and kind of a feeling at a young age of of not belonging, and also really not knowing how to fit in, and so I love that you led with the word identity. I feel like I've created several. They can take a lifetime to build, and only only minutes to dissolve. And actually, once once they dissolve, you I think you actually get closer to maybe your true self. So I don't want to portray that as a bad thing. It's actually a wonderful thing. But early on, what I found was a lot of solace and maybe escape in music. To me, music was a place where I could feel. So even if it was I had trouble with feelings and you know expressing feelings or even having that feeling in my physical body as a child, I could express them through music. First through listening, and then finding finding the guitar, getting into bands, and so around that age, 1617, I I really decided that's who I wanted to be, that's what I wanted to do, and that's where I started to put a lot of my energy was into listening to music, going to see live music, playing music, and that's kind of what I built my my friend circle around, and like that's where that kind of first identity came from.

Steven Evans  05:27
Yeah, and talk to me a bit more about the sort of expression of emotion that was you, as you described, fairly limited in your home. Was it brother, father, mother who sort of established this as this is just sort of the way it is.

Daniel  05:41
Both of my parents. So I think you know, from the the homes that they came from, there was probably not a lot of safety or example in in expressing emotion, in feeling emotion, in talking about or having difficult conversations. That was you know you kind of kept that to yourself, power through. And what I didn't understand then, what I've learned now, is that keeping it yourself and power powering through is really just pushing it down so it can come out later, often in really destructive ways. And so, what I saw a lot of as a child was, I think, this desire to keep things steady and status quo until things would boil over and explode, and so they then they could explode into you know rage, and so I would see that with my father. I'm trying to think of like the right way to explain it because like to me it seems normal to others it might not because it was the environment I grew up in, and like it it wasn't like this angry rage fear all the time, but it was pretty unpredictable, and so I think from a young age it felt fairly unsafe. I don't mean physically unsafe. It was never, you know, never any issue like that. But you know, having that, you know, being in a safe space, being able to express, feeling like you're, you know, you have that support. I think that's something that was missing, even though there there was love and camaraderie and, like I said, fun and all that stuff. There was still this underlying kind of feeling of this lack of safety, and and for me that turned into anxiety,

Steven Evans  07:15
right? And when it comes to the anxiety, I mean, it's a creative, almost like a sublimation into music, right? I feel like that's such an evolution there, and kind of realizing like this is the way my environment is affecting me. I need to jump into bands as some sort of a balance, right? And could you talk more about that balance?

Daniel  07:35
Yeah, it's an interesting one too, because I I know like a lot of musicians will take that and then turn that into songwriting and express themselves lyrically. That's not at all what I did. What I learned to do was to express myself through the guitar more in an instrumental fashion. So for me, it was meditative. You know, I really worked on my ability to improvise and also then playing in bands like that. So it would be jazz or blues or like kind of like the jam band Grateful Dead route, and to me there was a lot of freedom there, and I could even if I didn't know what emotion I was expressing, I could feel it coming through. I could have those feelings in my body, and they felt safe. And so for me, I knew that was something I wanted, and I wanted more of. I didn't understand the connection at the time at all. And I think there's a flip side to that too, where and I talk about this in my book, like an early identity I latched onto because I saw it a lot in you know rock and roll and stuff. Like I was really interested in the stuff coming out of the late '60s and early '70s was kind of the idea of the tortured artist, and so the myth or the identity of the tortured artist. So where you could almost because of your talent and because you were in this field, it excused your behavior, and you had a reason to kind of be reclusive. I could make the connection with people through music from a stage, or you know through the guitar, and not have to actually have real connections with other people. So I was substituting that, and then you get it in little bits at a time. But it's it's not actual connection, even though you know there is two ways of connection in music between a player and an audience. It's not the same as like real deep human connection, which is something I think I was terrified of

Steven Evans  09:21
right, and it sounds like you know even in the absence of that feeling of connection, it was the sort of thing maybe running underneath that you knew that you needed that you didn't maybe have a language for at the time.

Daniel  09:33
It absolutely was, and you know, fortunately, unfortunately, I'm not sure I could even categorize it around the same time as when I found alcohol, and you know, then mix started to mix those two things together. So it was like because they in society they really do go together, and so you know drugs, alcohol, music, rock and roll, and so you know I started getting into drinking, and for me in the same. Way when I found music, it just felt like something that worked. So did alcohol. It was like, oh my god, now I can express myself. Now I can connect with other people, even though I wasn't actually expressing myself or connecting. It really felt like I was, and it's and it started a 30-year addiction to alcohol and other drugs, probably around that age you're talking, 1617, When I started to dabble into that, and was like, "Oh my God, this is how I want to feel. And even though you only get like a glimpse of it, you get into that window where it feels great, and the before and after on that feel awful, and the next day feels awful. But just to get that little bit, you know, I think I was willing to keep going back and keep going back.

Steven Evans  10:44
And talk to us about how that perhaps followed into your college years, or if you left home and and went right into work. Kind of walk us through that transition.

Daniel  10:53
Yeah. So after I graduated high school, I wanted to get as far away from home as I possibly could. The farthest school I could go to where we still had reciprocity was the University of Minnesota, and so I headed up there. I had some friends I went up there with as well, all into music, and then you know all into partying too. And that was like this first real sense of freedom, but at the same time, I had no idea what I wanted to do. I didn't have any real goal in going to school other than I knew I wanted to play music, and so I think I started out with a major in philosophy because I thought maybe that'll help me be a better writer. I learned a lot of interesting things, but I also spent a lot of time, too much time, and it's it's you know that's that's a regret for me, like going out and partying because that was a way to fit in with other people and to connect, and that's what everyone else was doing. Like that, even for at that time, kind of overtook music for me because it was like, oh, I was part of a group. I'm doing a thing, but it was it was just highly destructive. And so I ended up staying in school in Minnesota for I think for two years, and then leaving to go to a music school because I decided, like, okay, I need to turn a corner. I don't know what I'm doing here. I'm not like, not like going into engineering or like pursuing a career. I'm just kind of hanging out, and so I left to go to a small music school, also in in Minneapolis. That was a really really intense program. I took the Berkeley College of Music curriculum, which is a four-year school, and and boiled it down to two years. That was a great experience. I met some really great people. I learned a lot of really good things. It really helped my playing, and I had a period where I kind of like moved away from alcohol, but it didn't last. So, you know, I was still in bands. I was still clinging to this identity, which I would really call like a false self, and trying to project that out because I thought, I think we we learn to kind of hate our our true self, maybe through fearing rejection for like the things we're talking about from from early childhood, and then project this false self, which just isn't you. People don't respond to it, and I think it kind of gets worse and worse, and can pull you deeper into addiction. And so that's kind of the route I went for a lot of years. The good thing that happened in that time is I met my now wife in Minnesota. You know, so we were dating back then, and once she graduated school, we decided, okay, maybe maybe enough of the cold. I had had 25 years of winters, and it was time time to try something else. And we ended up moving out to California.

Steven Evans  13:26
Amazing! I mean, there's so much I'd like to dive into. I mean, when it comes to the sort of choosing and selecting music, it's an amazing sort of almost lyrical moment to your story, in that it serves as an anchor to your connection, the connection that you were looking for, and also when it comes to the false self, it's so interesting how many of us get wrapped up in that without even realizing, projecting this image that you know you feel like matches a certain persona or paradigm of your friends or your crowd, but it actually hurts you in the long run, right? It drives addiction.

Daniel  14:03
It does, and I'm going to go out on on a limb here and say it's all of us. I I haven't met anyone who's escaped that trap. I think there's varying degrees that false self. I think gets worse depending on sort of your emotional intelligence, and that boils down to you know what you learned as a child, and were you able to develop emotionally in whatever environment you were in? And so, for a lot of us, like if it wasn't openly talked about, if the support wasn't there, if you didn't have anyone to learn it from, good luck coming out fully emotionally developed as you go out into the world. And I think when we're missing those like key emotional skills, we have to substitute something else in their place, and so that can be the false self, that can be anger and rage, that can be all the self-destructive things we were talking about. And so I think I'd like to think I was an intelligent person, but emotionally. Intelligent, definitely not, and I think like that's something I've been working on, and I think I've you know for a lot of years I probably convinced myself that I was, you know until until you know recent events, which we can get to later in the story. That kind of revealed to me like, oh wow, no, I've been you know building this false identity, I've been living in it and thinking it was real, and it's absolutely not. So, just quickly, like the name of my book is sincerely delusional. I was living in what would be called a sincere delusion, basically living in a version of reality that's provably untrue, but it's one that you can't when you when you're in it, you can't see it, and so it feels like objective reality.

Steven Evans  15:45
Exactly, and I feel like also it emerges from, like you mentioned, a childlike place in search of safety. And of course, there are people who are doing studies out there who have degrees in this, you know, field. Then I don't have that, but it does feel like it comes from that desire for safety and safety in sort of fitting into the crowd or aligning to a way of living. If you have that, then you can sort of quote unquote be safe in that.

Daniel  16:12
Yeah. No. Absolutely. And I think the lack of it is something that's passed from generation to generation too. And without some kind of intervention. There's really not a lot of chance of it getting better. Thankfully, you have a podcast like this, and we can get the word out. And you know, there's a lot of material out there for for people to to start to learn about this. I know it's a focus of mine with and my wife's with my with our children to make sure that we're talking about these things and that they feel supported. Now I'm no longer delusional or not delusional enough to think that they won't still have to deal with these issues. That's I mean that's life, you know, working through it and and hopefully you know recognizing where you need help, but having the ability to ask for it. So that's another thing. Like I didn't really have. I think I I learned early on that it was unsafe to ask, and so I had to do everything by myself. And you know that that has persisted to this day. I still will try to do a lot by myself. I've learned to ask for help. I've you know learned to reach out. I still like to take a crack at it. It's like problem solving, and actually that that was kind of a double-edged sword because that you know I really learned to solve problems, but I also learned to create them in just as dramatic of a fashion.

Steven Evans  17:30
I think also too these false personas can help us to create also narratives about ourselves, and these narratives can kind of hold us back in some ways, right, and keep us from embracing new opportunities or becoming that person, that better person that we know we can be. And like when we get to these points, we often reach for something, or I often reach for something to stabilize. And I guess what was it in your case? You know, when maybe around graduation or shortly thereafter, where sort of that version that you had built up of around an identity around started to sort of break down.

Daniel  18:06
I'm trying to think if like that's the right time frame. So we moved out west, and I think I was still I was definitely still trying to live it. I was going to be a musician. I wanted to tour. I wanted to do all these things. We moved to California to Santa Cruz, which was amazing. We're, I mean, we're still there now, 2324, years later. But found out like, oh, how difficult it is and expensive in California. How hard it is to get rooted. We didn't have family there, so I think like some of that false sense of security I had, like when I was closer to home, vanished and put us into a survival mode. We were in and out of, and and probably still are for 20 years. I'd say that's when things started to crumble. But I was still holding on to the musician thing. When that really started to shift was when my wife got pregnant with our first son, and so I was probably 28 by that point, and we had been out here and kind of you know I was playing music and working odd jobs and and things like that. And you know once we found out we were having a baby, we were on a walk, and you know she pretty much broke down to me and was like, "You need to get a real job. It was like, "Wow, okay, you're you're actually right. I do, but that actually that gave me the you know kind of the motivation to go out and find a job working at a company that made audio gear, and I came in at the you know the entry level working pretty much the bottom on the manufacturing floor, you know tinning wires and like putting little assemblies together for this equipment that would end up in like every major studio in the world. I didn't realize what I had stumbled into at the time, but you know that that started what's been a 20 year career for me. That was probably the big shift. But even like during. During that time, what happened is it kind of bifurcated, and like I never let go of the of that like longing to be the musician because like that's how I could connect, and then I had to like live alongside my professional self that was trying to provide, and those two things were never in harmony, right? And I think as maybe a way of protection, or I think I kind of pit them against each other, unconsciously, but definitely like I was over here, but longing to be over there. I kind of set up this false, you know, dichotomy. Like it didn't it didn't have to be that way, but I think like where I was in my journey, I couldn't I couldn't see it.

Steven Evans  20:44
And there's often this sort of sense that person that a man is starts to sort of decouple from what he has to do, right? And the identity that you know is required in order to sustain a family in this case, or to become or step into this new role of father, right? And that decoupling creates tension internally. Often, are you able to speak a bit more about? You said that you know you would pit them against each other sometimes, and you know they were never really aligned. How did you manage that?

Daniel  21:14
Well, so I still play music, but I moved away from this idea of like, oh, I'm going to be out playing and in bands and stuff like that, but I think I held onto it as a resentment, honestly. And I'm trying to think of the right way to phrase it. It grew over time. In the beginning, I was like, "Oh, I'm just, I'm just doing this so we can get by. But then, like, life really picks up, and it's like, you know, marriage, and then you have the, you have the kid, and then the expenses come. What really served me well was like I was talking about earlier the ability to problem solve. So I started to kind of like raise up through the ranks of the company quickly, but at the same time, and and the the thing that was cool was this company was involved in music, so I was still connected to that world, but now through my profession, and so you know, I started in manufacturing. After a while, I moved to kind of hardware testing, you know, more of an engineering focus, then into customer support, and then eventually into marketing. And once I got into marketing, then we were dealing with you know audio engineers and artists, and going to concerts and having like access, like I never had or probably never would have had as as a musician. So I did get to enjoy that world, but I think I still held out the other one as like, look what I gave up, look what I gave up to do this, which is such a false. I don't want to speak about other people, but I think I did that, and I do. I do see this around. I did that in order to excuse other behavior.

Steven Evans  22:51
Yeah,

Daniel  22:51
and I talk about that in the book. There's a chapter in there called "The Myth of the Thankless Provider. So I think what I did is I kind of moved myself from being the the tortured artist to the thankless provider of the person who like I gave everything up and I'm I'm working and I'm doing all this so that should excuse my other behavior that should excuse me from not being present but providing isn't presence and like I'm sacrificing, so in the balance sheet, that should take care of any harm I'm causing. I was stuck in that mode for a long time, and it got worse and worse towards the end. In the last, you know, five years, as my job got more and more demanding, and I started to get deeper and deeper into like alcohol and drugs. And honestly, I was using them. I was caught in a loop, so it's like you you use those to escape from the work, but then I need those so I can keep working because I because I don't have the energy and I don't have the time. And really, like I wasn't taking care of myself, and I wasn't enjoying the life I had built around me. Like I had this amazing family, and it was something I couldn't see and I couldn't enjoy because I was I was stuck in my head and I was stuck in this this delusion that I had created. I think ultimately I was still unable to sit with my own feelings to be with myself, which you know I think is what drives us a lot of us to be workaholics to do what we're doing professionally, and then to need to drink or use drugs to keep moving, or you know, it's really like it's in the in our language, right? It's in the lexicon, like to take the edge off. It's so socially acceptable to do that in order to keep plugging away, but it's it's so destructive, and it's just not not an enjoyable way to live either.

Steven Evans  24:46
And it sounds like you know, even from your story, but others that I've heard, is that it almost appears as a defense mechanism. This almost shutting down, where you are holding on to something that's very difficult to do, and. In order to get through it, you have to sort of tune out all the other noise, and sometimes that noise is your family, right? And it's like, oh yeah, what do I do? How do I be present at the same time as I'm going through this really stressful time at work, or you know, things are sort of not working out as I had expected, or et cetera, right? You know, as you describe, that can create dissonance within a family, but also in a marriage. And I mean, if you could speak to how you balanced that, I didn't. So

Daniel  25:29
I mean, if if we're if we're gonna yeah be honest, I didn't. And you know, sometimes we're better than others. I'd say it ebbs and flows, but especially as things got worse, I had no balance, and you know, I think what would happen for me is I would get into a pattern of really relying on alcohol or going too deep, but also not being able to admit that I was doing that. I thought it was totally you know acceptable and excused because of like I was saying my contribution, but I, you know, I'd probably get to the point where there'd be some event I would do something, and realize like, oh, I have to stop for a while, and then I would white knuckle. I'd stop drinking, and it could be like a month or six months or you know even even like close to a year one time. But the the issue for me there was the whole time I wanted to drink, and what I never looked at was why. I never really got to that point of looking at why because I thought like this is this is normal, and like I deserve a break. Whatever the the kind of excuses we put around it are, I never really looked at why I wanted to like severely poison myself in order and to feel good, just to get that little bit of break. When it comes to addiction, and a lot of people say this, and like I think I first heard this from like a Buddhist teacher, the substances that we're drawn to when we first experience them, they really work, and that's kind of what I was referring to. They work until they don't, but once they don't, we don't we don't stop because we remember how they worked in the beginning. So the balance at home wasn't really there, and what what it meant then was like I was kind of being this explosive character that I was talking about growing up with, quick to anger and needing my environment to be really controlled, so that I could feel okay. Everything for me, in order for me to feel okay, was external, and you know that's a recipe for disaster because you're putting unrealistic expectations on everyone and everything around you. To feel okay, you need to be okay with yourself, right? And and and I I just never I didn't realize that I never looked there. I thought I was okay with myself. Again, that was this delusion that I was living in. And you know, eventually, after going through several cycles like that, I had a night where I'd had way too much to drink. And when I was in that state, I always felt no matter what, I always believed, not just felt like I was okay to drive. It didn't matter. Didn't matter how much I had had, who was with me, if I, you know, family in the car. I believe, like, no, I'm, I'm fine. Like I had, I think I, you know, on some level, I had to convince myself of that. Thank God, nothing happened. There was never a DUI for me. There was never an accident. I put myself and others in danger for sure. But thankfully, that the other shoe didn't drop. But it got to the point at home where, and I talk about this in the book, where my wife she was done. She was like, "We can't do. I'm not doing this anymore. I don't want my kids exposed to this. I I can't do this anymore. And at that point, like she was really like you. You know, I hope you can get help, and I hope you can go do that, kind of for your kids and for yourself. But like this has to stop. So throwing that flag on the field was what started to wake me up, and I think you know my book is really about the that process of waking up, kind of starting right around that point, and then going for the next year because like it's a process. You don't just pop out of bed and you're like, oh, it's me, and I understand everything that's been happening. Like, no, it took me a good year, and I'm and things are still unfolding for me, you know.

Daniel  29:21
I've been sober for about two and a half years now, but yeah, definitely a process. But at that point, I realized maybe for the first time that this is something I can't do on my own. I'm. I knew I was stuck in a pattern, and I knew I couldn't get out. I had enough clarity to recognize I'd been through it so many times, and that all I needed was some space from whatever the event was, and I could start to rationalize and manipulate and work my way back into that loop, and I would do it forever until it killed me, or until you know I actually did experience some horrible tragedy that that couldn't be undone. So I was honestly I was so lucky that it went down the way it did, and that's right there was where I I decided I need help, and I I made the decision to go to a facility for 30 days. It was the best decision I ever made.

Steven Evans  30:15
Wow! Before jumping there, I would I mean it sounds like a lot of the I guess family stress I would say around this was in large part sort of a reaction almost of making them the drivers of let's say your happiness or your sense of peace right and it's interesting we don't realize you know I don't realize I'm doing this to my partner right or you know hey I'm I'm feeling a certain way about my work, and I'm making it your job to fix that, right? Or I'm making it your responsibility to somehow make that better. And I feel betrayed if that's not the case, or something like that, right? You know, and it becomes really the challenge is like, why am I not able to find that sense of peace or compartmentalize in a certain way, so that I can be the presence that she might need or my partner might need. The burden there is is often weighed or carried, if you will, by the family. So, and it sounds like a lot of that was happening in your house.

Daniel  31:14
It absolutely was, and you know, it wasn't just at home. I was trying to find identity and trying to be okay, you know, from external sources at work too. And you know, if something went wrong there, I was destroyed. I I was so invested, and I don't know if you've read any Michael Singer. He wrote Untethered Soul, but he did a really good podcast series on applying that at work, kind of being untethered at work, and that really, if you're going into work to gain something, you're already failing. Like you should go into that room with a goal of elevating that room and everything around you. If that's your goal, you're gonna you're gonna be much happier. If you're going in like this, is what I need. This is for me. Ultimately, you're going to fail, and you're going to feel feel unfulfilled because it's not your work's job to to give you an identity. You know, learning that was huge. So I was in this, you know, long time pattern of survival, really earnestly trying to provide, but also you know not being able to take care of myself, needing all external validation everywhere, and that and that was another thing with music too. Like I think at a young age I I was so attracted to that external validation. You know, from the first oh you play someone a song, they're like, "Wow! You're like, "Oh my God! I'm being, I'm being validated. This feels really good. And then the deeper you get into it, the more you do, the better it gets. Like you're getting more and more and more. It's kind of like getting into drinking: is one drink versus three drinks versus five drinks. It's a similar thing that happened for me at work too. I was needing validation from every direction, and and it's so unsustainable, and it's so unfair to everyone around you, honestly, to like being requiring them to validate you so you can feel okay. So I was, you know, at home. I didn't actually know what codependence was, but but we were in a terribly codependent relationship. I only want to talk about my side of that, and but like I was absolutely needing to be validated and looking for for you know my sense of feeling okay from her, and like look at everything I'm doing, and like you know excuse all the things that I shouldn't be doing because look at what I'm doing and providing, which is just a horrible thing to do to another person, and you know it's unfair, and it's not a true relationship. If you're not in a relationship where you know you both can be okay as individuals, you're destined to. I mean, you can stay together. People stay together that way forever, but it's really not a great way to live.

Steven Evans  34:01
Yeah, and I hear you. And like when it comes to the two sort of lives coming together, I mean, you know, talk about history of like hurt or the history of dealing with these kinds of things. Every person has their unique reaction. Yeah. So that's also you know something that they bring, and it's not always easy to kind of align them and make them into one, you got to learn the other person's love language, or you know how to fight right, or those kinds of things, right? All of the above.

Daniel  34:29
Yeah, and you know, back to what we were talking about at the beginning about like kind of not being able to feel or express feelings or even sit with feelings. I would just shut down and then turn to a substance to get through that that anxiety and that discomfort. Really, you know, one of the main things I've I've learned is like there's a lot of value in feeling uncomfortable, and you know that's really good information that your body is giving you. What I learned when I was at the recovery retreat. Was to sit with that and to try to to instead of pushing it away, pushing it down, or numbing it or dulling it with the substance, kind of sit with it with hopefully without even judging it or trying to explain it and give it the opportunity to pass. What a gift that's been! It doesn't mean the discomfort goes away, but it gives you an opportunity to deal with it. And really, like when you're pushing it down or pushing it away, it just comes back and it comes back amplified. That's something I'm still working on. I put my story in a book out to the world, which is an extremely vulnerable thing to do, and it's terrifying. But then, like you know, sometimes that thought will come into my mind, and I'll just have you know, I realize, oh, that's just a thought. I can I can kind of float across the screen and float away, and I can sit with the discomfort that I feel with it, and then it's gone. And then yeah, I actually feel stronger for having gone through that rather than trying to run away from it.

Steven Evans  35:58
Correct. And I mean, walk us through the first few weeks after recovery, after the recovery retreat, jumping back into all the old stimulus, you know, of of everything.

Daniel  36:10
Yeah, that's it. I mean, it's pretty wild. So when you go into you know rehab or the the place I went was was non medical, which was great because instead of being focused on medication, it was really focused on things like emotional sobriety, which is basically learning to deal with life on life's terms. It's put in the context of recovery, but it's something that we can all all benefit from. It's it's really just how do you actually attain emotional intelligence? How can you be okay with yourself. How can you get that autonomy that we all kind of need to be able to function? I got to spend you know 30 days. I don't want to say comfort, but kind of because I you know but in a protected space working through these issues. So at the end of that time, I came out with a lot of I think new knowledge, a lot of knowledge about myself that I had gained, this kind of understanding of true self and false self, and concepts like sincere delusion, that really unlocked a lot for me and helped me look at my life and kind of understand the damage I had done, but also have some compassion for how I got there instead of just like regret and guilt and shame, guilt is one thing. Like I think that's appropriate. We we should be accountable for the things we've done. Shame is another. There's really no value in carrying that with you. That that I can see. So once I left and going back into what you know what we while I was in there. What we called the real world because when you're in there, like I said, you're protected. That stimulus stimulus is gone. There's no chance to drink or use, and you you have support all the time. Getting back into the real world, I thankfully I was lucky enough to be able to take another month off of work, and so when I got home, I really just tried to settle in with my family, and then I just tried to take you know one day at a time, one experience at a time, and so like, and I kind of had to you know reintroduce myself to people. I had to have the conversation over and over about where I went and why, and what I found was it was more uncomfortable for the other people than it was for me because I think you know when when you go through an experience like that you really throw up a mirror for other people, and so what I had was a lot of people talking to me about their drinking, and I was kind of like, oh, I don't, I don't, your your life is your life. Like I'm not, I'm not judging you. I don't, I don't care what you do. And if you can handle what you're doing, awesome. I couldn't, and I needed a change. But like that has nothing to do with you. So that was an interesting experience. And then, like I said, like one one thing at a time, it would be like I, I have to go to some school festival or a big one was going to a concert. That was maybe the biggest. Like my wife and I and a friend went to a concert down in Monterey, and you know the kind of thing that we would have, I absolutely would have been drinking and using in that environment. And what I found out was I could go and I could have a ginger beer or maybe even a coffee at past nine at night, which was wild, and and eats eat some mints or whatever it was, and I could listen to music and and dance, and we could laugh and have fun. I found that I could still have fun, so that was that was huge. That was such a big lesson for me. And then after that, it was you know getting just reintroduced to everything one bit at a time, and making sure that no matter what was happening, I was trying to stay awake. What I learned when I was in there is what I came to realize is I had been kind of sleepwalking for a long time, just automatically reacting to things in my environment, not really thinking about where that reaction was coming from.

Daniel  39:59
Where it stemmed from, or why I was even doing that. Everything was so, so programmed into this false self and protecting myself. I wasn't really me anymore. Like getting the chance to stop and and reflect was what woke me up. And so then my focus after getting out and since then has been okay. How do I how do I stay awake? How do I not fall back into patterns? Since the day I I left to go to, it was a place called Divided Sky in Vermont. It was an amazing experience. Since I left to go to Divided Sky, I haven't had the urge to drink. Thankfully, I know a lot of people. I have a lot of friends that were there. I know a lot of people. That's a continued struggle. But I really started to recognize alcohol as a tool that I was using. And what I try to do is look at like, okay, what is driving me to want to use that tool, and then focus on the drive. And so I never really get to the tool part, which is I'm thankful I got there. Getting out and having to continue to struggle with urges like it sounds horrible. That wasn't my experience, but still, you get out and life is still there. Like I, I had to go back to work, and going back to work was actually great. I got to have a new approach to it. I got to learn to not take things so personally. I got to understand that work isn't me, which was a huge lesson, and that you know, everyone is there trying their best, and all acting from their own false selves, trying to be you know fit in, and and like you know we're all we're all pretty we're all the same. That's the other thing I kind of learned. Like you know humans break in fantastic and fabulous ways, but like deep down that our needs are all are all the same, and and like I learned to see that in myself, and I also learned to see it in other people. When I need to stop and like check myself, is when I start to forget that about other people,

Steven Evans  41:52
right?

Daniel  41:53
And like everyone deserves that grace, I think, to remember like, okay, I'm arguing with somebody in a conference room right now, and I and I'm wondering what their problem is. It's like okay, their problems are old and deep, and like they're doing their best. So that that was another huge lesson for me.

Steven Evans  42:12
Wow, and and like you talk about sort of remaining awake. I guess what are some of the things that you find yourself doing to sort of stay on that side,

Daniel  42:23
yeah. One of the things I did was write a book, and it's funny. Like I, you know, I say this a lot. I didn't mean to write a book. I got to a one year of sobriety, and I went back to the facility Divided Sky because they were having a festival to raise money for the foundation. And when I got there, I thought you know I'd go back and I'd feel like an elder and it'd be triumphant. And what I found there was just all this raw emotion that I couldn't categorize and I couldn't explain and I couldn't push away. And I just I had to feel it. And in that moment, I was like, I'm learning the same damn lesson that I learned a year ago, and it was a great reminder of how this-you know-there is no finish line. This race doesn't end. This is like continual maintenance and growth that's required to be human. And so I started writing to kind of like collect my thoughts, and then eventually, you know, shared that out with some other people, got really good feedback, and then decided, okay, maybe I maybe I should share my story, my whole story. And I tried to write the history of from when I went into into the facility to when I went back a year later, and that turned into the book. Now, not not everyone has to write a book to stay awake. I think there's a lot of there's a lot of little things we can do along the way, and a lot I found that I had forgotten after being out for a while. One that's great is getting into nature, and so I did a lot of that while I was at Divided Sky. There was a lot of like focusing on the benefits of nature and being outside and getting exercise. That's a huge one. The other one is remembering to breathe and to breathe consciously and to focus on your breath because it really brings you back into your body. I can go a long time without realizing I'm breathing at

Steven Evans  44:10
all,

Daniel  44:10
and because you know I didn't mention this before, I was diagnosed as an adult with ADHD, but it helped kind of explain the frenetic energy and activity of my childhood and my mind, but like that was a thing for me. Is I always had to be moving, and I think always moving was a way to not stop and feel, and that became a lifelong pattern. So stopping and breathing and taking a minute to check in and feel is a great way to to stay awake,

Steven Evans  44:41
yeah. And like when you know the work is crazy, or let's say the kids are, you know, kind of getting on your last nerve, or something else kind of comes up. You know, how do you kind of remain okay? I'm you know present enough in those moments just to say, okay, well, I'm going to handle it in a different way this time.

Daniel  45:00
So I make mistakes all the time, and I think you know. For anyone listening to this, like I don't want to give the impression like, "Hey, I have mastered life. No, not not not at all. It's having the awareness now of when I react to something poorly, and then looking to repair that as quickly as possible, like I think with kids especially, like they do get on my last nerve. It's frenetic energy, and it can be chaotic and mixed with work. And well, we got to get dinner ready, and there's homework, and the dog is barking. Like all of that still will get me on my last nerve, and I'll still react often in ways that I don't love and that they don't deserve, but at least I, you know, at least I can say now I'm aware, and if it happens, I can be aware and I can apologize and I can maybe explain why I reacted that way, and then try better the next time to to not react that way and try remember to breathe and remember to take a moment. Sometimes, like I'll, I get worked into a state where I know I cannot react well, and so it's like I need to try to remove myself if that's the case, and not not power through and push through. Like we we need to rest and we need to reset, and like that that was one of the you know the greatest parts of quitting the the drinking and and drugs was like oh I can actually rest again like I can go I can go to bed at nine and not think I have to keep drinking so I can stay up till two to work or and then also try to play music or something kind of crazy like that so like I think like you know taking care of ourselves resting and then in the moments you're talking about, also having a little compassion for when you when you don't do it right. We can't get it right all the time. Hopefully, we can get it right more of the time over time. But that's a you know I talked about putting unrealistic expectations on other people. We put them on ourselves more than anything. So like expecting that I'm going to be awake all the time, and I'm I'm gonna always you know react perfectly. Like it's it's totally unrealistic, but like I said, having compassion and then be willing to talk about it and be willing to you know admit it and apologize, I think is huge.

Steven Evans  47:14
Yeah, and it's you know these tenets that you're you're raising somewhat of an authenticity, but also having this compassion for yourself, and sort of not only what you've been through, but your reactions to things that might not be exactly what you had hoped, or maybe what you want. These these are tenets of identity, right? Being an authentic person, being compassionate. I think one of the things we talked about earlier was sort of your your drive for connection. I mean, how has this new identity affected your connection and points? You know, within either your family or your community.

Daniel  47:49
Yeah, that's a great question. I think instead of just any connection, now I really crave deeper connection, and I feel like you know I absolutely have that with my wife, which it wasn't like you know I left the facility and then that was back. That was a lot of work. That was you know a lot of therapy and time and talking and and being willing to feel to to get to that point. I'm now like more interested in deeper connection than the quantity. So more quality over quantity, and with friends too. And so it's a little difficult going back to a world where most people are still drinking, because I think you know what one thing we get from alcohol is easy but false connection, where it's like you feel like you know I love you, man, like cool but like so surface level and not real. We're manufacturing that feeling through through chemicals and and substances we're ingesting, and it's you know I'm not going to say it's not fun. Like I have I've had you know 1000s and 1000s of great times, you know, along with the terrible ones. But still, I will say it's not real, and you know I think now that that deeper connection is what I'm after. But at the same time, I don't think I need it as much to validate or feel good about myself. So, like you've used the word authentic a couple times now, and I think that's the key. Like authentic connection and communication is what feels really good now, more so than hoping for for validation.

Steven Evans  49:28
Wow. Well, in closing, I always want to ask, you know, if you were to look back across the full arc of your life, you know, not the version that you designed, but the one that you actually had lived, you know, the one we've been describing and discussing. I mean, what has turned out to matter the most?

Daniel  49:44
That's a good one. Let me let me come in and answer that from the side. Maybe I think I I think what I did and what a lot of us do is spend a lot of time thinking we're not living the life we're supposed to. That there's something more out there. That longing can draw. Us to to do more and to do great things, but it also can cause us to miss the amazing moments that we're in all the time. And also, you know, what I found I got out of treatment is that like that my family mattered the most, and it's that those those those genuine connections matter the most, and that you know the the big moments can feel really exciting, you know. You get the the big dopamine hit and like whatever from the promotion or the raise or this and then that, but they're so fleeting, and they leave you feeling empty because now you need another one. I think those moments are around us all the time, and you know, I'm thankful for the ones that I was present enough for that. I got to experience and enjoy, and I think you know, moving forward, that's that's what I think is most important. It's not the the hot the big highs and the big lows, but it's like finding connection in those everyday moments and remembering that they're just as important. Like you talked about the the big events and chapters and what what leads to the next thing. Like they're just as important as those big events. And so, if you can find the joy in those moments, I think like you can lead a pretty good life.

Steven Evans  51:14
Amazing. Well, thank you, Dan, for bringing your story and for trusting us. You know, it will definitely land with our audience, and I hope that they've learned, you know, a whole lot from your example. Thank you so much for bringing the story.

Daniel  51:26
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Steven Evans  51:31
This has been the Missing Conversation. I'm Steve Evans. Thanks for listening. If something in there found you, if a moment hit somewhere you weren't expecting, just let it be there for a while. You don't have to sort it out right now. That's what this is for. Take care of yourself out there. And if you know a guy who needs to hear this one, you probably already know who he is. Send it to him.


Transcribed by https://otter.ai