WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:09.791 --> 00:00:11.741 Colin Loretz: Welcome to build and learn My name is Colin 00:00:12.450 --> 00:00:15.540 CJ Avilla: And I'm CJ And today we're gonna talk about the Stack 00:00:15.600 --> 00:00:18.600 Overflow Developer Survey from 2022 00:00:19.466 --> 00:00:22.316 Colin Loretz: Yeah this is a super exciting thing I don't think I 00:00:22.986 --> 00:00:26.911 participated in it but I saw the results and I think it's gonna be fun to dive into 00:00:27.905 --> 00:00:30.905 CJ Avilla: Yeah I I did I did fill it out this time around I think I've probably 00:00:30.905 --> 00:00:36.635 only done it like three times In the past but it's always super interesting to see 00:00:36.815 --> 00:00:40.775 what people are thinking about in terms of tooling what they're doing in terms 00:00:40.775 --> 00:00:44.945 of learning like how much they're getting paid for each stack Like all of those 00:00:44.945 --> 00:00:48.604 data points are so so interesting every year I I kind of I get really excited 00:00:48.604 --> 00:00:52.264 when it comes out So I'm pumped to to go through and I'm also really interested to 00:00:52.264 --> 00:00:54.484 hear just your thoughts about the results 00:00:55.045 --> 00:00:58.165 Colin Loretz: Yeah Before we get into that let's talk a little bit about like 00:00:58.165 --> 00:01:02.993 kind of meta about the podcast So this is episode two we recorded episode one 00:01:02.993 --> 00:01:06.402 It's been a little while now And you did all the editing I'd love to kind of 00:01:06.407 --> 00:01:10.342 just chat about like What that was like especially for people out there who might 00:01:10.342 --> 00:01:14.722 be interested in podcasting on their own we're recording this with Zencaster 00:01:14.727 --> 00:01:19.222 We recorded the first one in zoom just because we had some tech difficulties and 00:01:19.227 --> 00:01:23.451 I think this is gonna be night and day difference but what what kinds of things 00:01:23.456 --> 00:01:26.289 did you see when you were editing that episode or anything that you noticed 00:01:27.233 --> 00:01:33.073 CJ Avilla: So I have edited hundreds of my own videos before and I've edited 00:01:33.073 --> 00:01:38.203 probably like 10 podcast episodes before and I am always uncomfortable at 00:01:38.208 --> 00:01:43.753 seeing myself but seeing the transcript of my spoken word was like even more 00:01:43.753 --> 00:01:47.623 uncomfortable because it's like oh that is actually the words that I said and 00:01:48.579 --> 00:01:50.514 Colin Loretz: you what do we use what do we use for that? 00:01:50.563 --> 00:01:54.433 CJ Avilla: Right Okay Yeah So we were the first pass we did in Descript. 00:01:54.853 --> 00:01:57.904 So Descript if you haven't seen it go check it out This is we'll have a link 00:01:57.904 --> 00:02:00.915 in the show notes which will be a super special link that hopefully will increase 00:02:00.915 --> 00:02:04.868 our chances of getting access to the new descript storyboard but the descript 00:02:04.868 --> 00:02:09.653 is this tool that was originally built I guess for editing audio and The way 00:02:09.653 --> 00:02:14.153 that it works is you kind of drop in an audio or video file It will transcribe 00:02:14.183 --> 00:02:18.503 what was said and then allow you to edit as if you're editing a word document 00:02:18.503 --> 00:02:22.553 And so like as you're going through you can see all of the ums and U's and 00:02:23.093 --> 00:02:27.653 you really really start to notice the filler words mine in particular is so 00:02:27.713 --> 00:02:33.614 like I be so and also like I use like a lot so in fact there we go right 00:02:33.734 --> 00:02:36.759 Colin Loretz: Yeah I've noticed that even on zoom calls with with at work 00:02:36.789 --> 00:02:40.989 I will sometimes end sentences with so and I think that's like a nervous tick 00:02:40.989 --> 00:02:44.169 or something and you know and I I'm not completely against filler words I 00:02:44.174 --> 00:02:48.039 think we'll notice them I there's some people who like to keep them in I think 00:02:48.039 --> 00:02:51.774 it's also there's The kind of people who listen to podcasts and remove all 00:02:51.774 --> 00:02:58.224 spaces and on 2X speed And it's like you kind of lose the storytelling element 00:02:58.284 --> 00:03:02.601 of and like delivery when you do that I think like overcast will just let you 00:03:02.601 --> 00:03:08.016 listen to podcasts at like next Breaking speeds Right And I'm not trying to be 00:03:08.016 --> 00:03:11.938 like productive when I'm listening to podcast I'm trying to relax but I think 00:03:11.943 --> 00:03:15.508 it's a it depends right Like you wouldn't wanna edit out all the filler words if 00:03:15.508 --> 00:03:20.338 it was like a story or it depends Right If it's an audible and you're listening 00:03:20.338 --> 00:03:24.397 to ums and OS like that would probably be really annoying but You know right there 00:03:24.397 --> 00:03:28.327 I think we're just as humans You you you said a few things like we all have filler 00:03:28.327 --> 00:03:32.197 words and I think we're uncomfortable listening and watching ourselves and 00:03:32.257 --> 00:03:36.847 you've done a lot of this I don't think it gets easier You just do it right 00:03:36.852 --> 00:03:40.867 You it's just fact of life And it's kind of like getting on stage I think 00:03:40.867 --> 00:03:45.227 a lot of people think that when you do that You eventually just feel fine 00:03:45.287 --> 00:03:49.007 but I I feel just as nervous getting on stage as I did the first day that I 00:03:49.007 --> 00:03:53.527 did it You have a different experience and tools to to handle it I think 00:03:53.631 --> 00:03:58.347 CJ Avilla: Right Yeah You start to be able to have different mechanisms to 00:03:58.377 --> 00:04:02.727 regulate your anxiety around what people think about you And you start to realize 00:04:02.732 --> 00:04:05.037 that people are thinking more about themselves than what they're thinking 00:04:05.037 --> 00:04:09.547 about you And so maybe it allows you to relax ever so slightly so we we we 00:04:09.547 --> 00:04:13.347 use D script Basically I dropped it in there and then I There's a tool that lets 00:04:13.347 --> 00:04:19.077 you auto remove ums and U So I did that first and maybe you can tell when you're 00:04:19.077 --> 00:04:23.727 listening back to episode one that it's a little choppy maybe that's was because of 00:04:23.787 --> 00:04:29.338 that kind of just like find and replace then I applied a filter that comes from 00:04:29.338 --> 00:04:33.778 descript called studio sound and this is a tool that will upload all the audio 00:04:33.778 --> 00:04:39.113 and then run some machine learning stuff inside of descripts I don't know they're 00:04:39.113 --> 00:04:44.573 inside of their platform that will try to improve the audio quality which is 00:04:44.573 --> 00:04:49.373 just mind blowing Like if there's echo in your room or if it doesn't sound you know 00:04:49.373 --> 00:04:53.453 rich or chunky enough like inside of the Zencaster in this UI we can actually see 00:04:53.453 --> 00:04:57.803 the wave forms of our voices And they're a little bit different right My mic is 00:04:57.803 --> 00:05:01.763 gonna be set up a little bit differently than Colin's Mike And as we're talking 00:05:02.693 --> 00:05:07.103 Those waveforms can be sort of normalized using machine learning and they can also 00:05:07.103 --> 00:05:10.915 remove background sounds and stuff So that I think was pretty powerful And 00:05:10.915 --> 00:05:15.085 listening back to the before and after of just the studio sound application was 00:05:15.085 --> 00:05:19.342 pretty wild I did apply and play with a couple different filters but I think 00:05:19.342 --> 00:05:25.467 that was the main The main one And then I exported it from descript into garage 00:05:25.467 --> 00:05:30.657 band because I couldn't figure out how to add like nice intro music that faded in 00:05:30.657 --> 00:05:33.597 and nice intro music that faded out And I know how to deal with garage band And 00:05:33.602 --> 00:05:39.225 so that's where I did so yeah found some creative commons open free Music that 00:05:39.225 --> 00:05:43.065 you don't have to pay for or whatever drop that in the beginning drop it in 00:05:43.065 --> 00:05:47.595 the end And then kind of that's where we landed with with episode one obviously 00:05:47.595 --> 00:05:49.155 I think we'll iterate and improve but 00:05:49.466 --> 00:05:53.246 Colin Loretz: Absolutely Yeah Yeah I mean like I think like anything the first 00:05:53.251 --> 00:05:56.876 pancake right Episode one we kind of recorded it Assuming we were gonna throw 00:05:56.876 --> 00:06:00.746 it away We're gonna release it You're listening to episode two now So this is 00:06:00.746 --> 00:06:03.926 from the future Hopefully you've already listened to episode one I think we're just 00:06:03.926 --> 00:06:07.843 gonna get better about content you know keeping the conversation tight episode one 00:06:07.848 --> 00:06:12.343 was also like a rambling of our histories So enjoy that if you want a little bit of 00:06:12.343 --> 00:06:17.773 a a down memory land of MySpace and and all that fun stuff but Yeah I'm excited 00:06:17.773 --> 00:06:21.463 that we're doing this and it's only gonna get better and maybe we'll do like a deep 00:06:21.463 --> 00:06:24.883 dive audio episode in the future where we can really talk about the tools and the 00:06:24.883 --> 00:06:28.643 gear that we're using some of it you know you don't need to have but I think we've 00:06:28.648 --> 00:06:31.793 kind of accumulated it over the years of doing teaching and and all that kind of 00:06:31.793 --> 00:06:36.511 stuff So we've we've got that on hand but let's let's dive into this stack overflow 00:06:37.100 --> 00:06:42.256 CJ Avilla: Let's do it there's a bunch of stuff that was surprising 00:06:42.256 --> 00:06:46.426 a little bit Some of it was sad Some of it was hilarious And so maybe we 00:06:46.426 --> 00:06:50.116 should start with things we'll go You wanna ping pong We'll go back and forth 00:06:50.116 --> 00:06:52.486 And you wanna talk about some of the things that you thought were surprising 00:06:53.307 --> 00:06:56.367 Colin Loretz: Yeah So before we do that I'm just gonna read the kind of headline 00:06:56.367 --> 00:06:59.607 for this So if you haven't seen this we'll put a sh a link in the show notes 00:06:59.612 --> 00:07:05.637 but they in may of 2022 they surveyed over 70,000 developers to kind of get a 00:07:05.637 --> 00:07:09.327 sense of how they learn how they level up which tools they use and what they 00:07:09.327 --> 00:07:14.682 want And I think this is More interesting than the like what do you do How much 00:07:14.682 --> 00:07:18.642 do you get paid It's the when you're not working how do you learn or how do you 00:07:18.642 --> 00:07:23.082 learn on the job How do you find things A lot of the meta work that I think is 00:07:23.082 --> 00:07:28.887 newer To companies with remote work or hybrid work Right Because sometimes it's 00:07:28.892 --> 00:07:32.997 like you just talk to your neighbor and ask them a question And now you got slack 00:07:32.997 --> 00:07:36.867 and notion and JIRA and confluence all these different tools which we've always 00:07:36.867 --> 00:07:41.337 had but what is it changing And I think the fact that this was in may of 20, 22 00:07:41.342 --> 00:07:45.406 is also important just to note as like a marker for history because these surveys 00:07:45.406 --> 00:07:49.846 are gonna come out every year and the the results are gonna change So yeah so it's 00:07:49.846 --> 00:07:53.899 kind of just level setting there but did anything was there anything like that kind 00:07:53.899 --> 00:07:57.919 of hit you as either super surprising or maybe even not surprising Like you're like 00:07:57.919 --> 00:08:00.282 yeah of course developers this this sense 00:08:00.773 --> 00:08:04.493 CJ Avilla: So obviously as someone who makes a lot of video content both for my 00:08:04.523 --> 00:08:08.273 own YouTube channel and also the Stripe developers channel one of the first 00:08:08.273 --> 00:08:12.863 sections I jumped to is how people are learning how to code And this is a this 00:08:12.868 --> 00:08:17.813 is the part that is kind of the data point that allows me to go to my my leadership 00:08:17.813 --> 00:08:22.943 and my bosses and say like look people are actually you know watching videos 00:08:22.943 --> 00:08:28.703 on the internet and in order to learn how to do technical things Definitely 00:08:29.048 --> 00:08:33.422 yeah it definitely helps like quantify that And so A lot of people said they 00:08:33.482 --> 00:08:36.829 are doing online learning to learn how to code this was like a combination of 00:08:36.829 --> 00:08:42.706 a bunch of different stuff between blogs and articles and video And so around 70% 00:08:42.766 --> 00:08:46.377 said that they're using online resources obviously and then video specifically 00:08:46.377 --> 00:08:52.102 came in around 59% of respondents I think part of that is learning styles Like some 00:08:52.102 --> 00:08:55.342 people just learn better through written content Other people are gonna learn 00:08:55.342 --> 00:09:00.406 better through video and or you know this like these kind of interactive courses 00:09:00.406 --> 00:09:03.898 where you can kind of like run some code see the output and then try to improve 00:09:03.966 --> 00:09:08.125 Something that I thought sort of stood out a little bit is in the survey it allows 00:09:08.125 --> 00:09:12.441 you to sort of break down by cohort age or like kind of like look at a question 00:09:12.441 --> 00:09:18.711 by age and for a video in particular the the younger the developer is the more 00:09:18.711 --> 00:09:23.421 likely they are to use video as a as as a resource to learn how to code and the 00:09:23.421 --> 00:09:28.311 older you are the less likely you are to watch video And so what My read on that 00:09:28.316 --> 00:09:33.051 is that especially the newer generation of devs are kind of finding this online 00:09:33.051 --> 00:09:37.701 content whether it's free code camp the Odin project ACA like all of these 00:09:37.701 --> 00:09:41.900 different YouTube channels traverse media there's just massive massive YouTube 00:09:41.900 --> 00:09:45.530 channels now that are teaching people how to code And I think that's become you know 00:09:45.535 --> 00:09:48.560 a really core and important resource So 00:09:48.609 --> 00:09:52.619 Colin Loretz: I think the on that same front they had what kind of resources 00:09:52.619 --> 00:09:55.619 you used to learn how to code And they mentioned technical documentation and 00:09:55.619 --> 00:10:02.374 stack overflow as some of the top two And I do wonder like I've only to be honest 00:10:02.854 --> 00:10:07.744 recently been able to really be able to learn from docs I think that when you're 00:10:07.744 --> 00:10:11.854 learning to code docs are not always the best way to learn how to code because 00:10:11.854 --> 00:10:16.024 you need to see somebody use it right Like when it says put run this command 00:10:16.479 --> 00:10:21.579 Where am I running this What supposed to do Where am I supposed to see and videos 00:10:21.584 --> 00:10:26.649 give you that And you know I I follow some Instagrammers I'm not on TikTok but I see 00:10:26.649 --> 00:10:31.149 the tos that leak into Instagram And it's interesting to see like the coding and 00:10:31.149 --> 00:10:35.979 programming like Instagram tos because they're super short So you're not going to 00:10:35.979 --> 00:10:41.029 really teach anything but they're almost like a let's get this person interested in 00:10:41.029 --> 00:10:45.679 a thing to go to my YouTube channel to go watch the full video right Or to go watch 00:10:45.684 --> 00:10:49.789 my Twitch stream where I'm gonna build my to-do app and react or whatever that 00:10:49.789 --> 00:10:54.068 might be and so I do think like TikTok and Instagram probably has something to do 00:10:54.068 --> 00:10:59.168 with that video piece But you know again I I don't know that these boot camps and you 00:10:59.168 --> 00:11:02.678 know in some cases when you're learning how to code how do you learn how to learn 00:11:02.678 --> 00:11:07.518 from docs a big part of it especially If you're learning Ruby sometimes you find 00:11:07.518 --> 00:11:11.718 just like the pure Ruby docs and that's like a terrifying website to end land 00:11:11.718 --> 00:11:13.248 on If you don't know you're looking at 00:11:13.992 --> 00:11:18.312 CJ Avilla: Yeah I think when you know as you build experience when you land on 00:11:18.312 --> 00:11:24.582 a readme for an open source project or whatever and you see the a bash command 00:11:24.582 --> 00:11:28.182 that says you know you should at this point you should use gem install whatever 00:11:28.263 --> 00:11:31.803 We as Rubus who've been doing this for 10 years or whatever we're comfortable And 00:11:31.803 --> 00:11:35.523 we can like look at that and be like okay Yeah here's how I this is how I install 00:11:35.523 --> 00:11:38.553 it And then you might see a couple of lines of code that are like okay here's 00:11:38.553 --> 00:11:42.273 how you initialize the client in passing your API key and then make a make an API 00:11:42.273 --> 00:11:47.127 call but as someone who's brand brand new who's never interacted with an API before 00:11:47.367 --> 00:11:53.492 I Video is an incredibly powerful way to both inspire them but also give them the 00:11:53.492 --> 00:11:57.632 confidence that they too can absolutely do this by seeing someone else perform 00:11:57.637 --> 00:12:01.832 exactly the same steps that they need to perform Especially if it's like in a tool 00:12:01.832 --> 00:12:05.957 that's familiar to them And so yeah as we talk about these other tools something 00:12:05.957 --> 00:12:09.197 that has definitely come up in the comments for me is like people will say 00:12:09.197 --> 00:12:13.547 why aren't you using vs code Why are you doing this Like inside of your terminal or 00:12:13.547 --> 00:12:18.407 whatever And it's because they literally want the IDE to match what they're seeing 00:12:18.617 --> 00:12:22.517 And in some cases even like the theme right They want the theme to look the 00:12:22.517 --> 00:12:25.217 same They want like the colors to look the same They want all the output to be 00:12:25.217 --> 00:12:29.692 exactly the same which feels comfortable and is yeah Confidence inspiring And We're 00:12:29.718 --> 00:12:33.190 Colin Loretz: all waiting for that We're waiting for that CJ vs code theme to 00:12:33.190 --> 00:12:39.940 come out you it's We you gotta have the links to your merch and your your vs gosh 00:12:40.154 --> 00:12:43.274 CJ Avilla: we I have a theme and I think we're gonna open source It It's the one 00:12:43.274 --> 00:12:46.681 we use for the strip developer YouTube channel it when we're in vs code but 00:12:47.397 --> 00:12:50.337 Colin Loretz: Yeah I mean you'd be surprised I mean the number of people 00:12:50.337 --> 00:12:54.147 when I when I like I said like those Instagrams and YouTubes people the biggest 00:12:54.147 --> 00:12:58.137 questions like what theme are you using Or like if I have an auto completer or 00:12:58.142 --> 00:13:01.887 something it's like oh how did you do that It's the extensions and the themes 00:13:01.887 --> 00:13:06.086 and stuff like that yeah I mean when I we taught a bootcamp here at our co-working 00:13:06.086 --> 00:13:11.441 space and we used to do everything live and we found that you know in like the 00:13:11.441 --> 00:13:15.521 TAs and myself were being asked the same questions over and over again And so 00:13:15.521 --> 00:13:20.801 instead we inverted it almost like Khan academy where we recorded the content so 00:13:20.801 --> 00:13:24.311 that they could watch it at home And then the in person sessions were the office 00:13:24.311 --> 00:13:28.391 hours So that way they could watch it they could stop it they could rewind it 00:13:28.391 --> 00:13:32.021 they could watch it faster They can skip to the part that they got stuck on And 00:13:32.021 --> 00:13:35.521 they can just do that over and over again without feeling like They don't have 00:13:35.521 --> 00:13:39.571 to worry about like oh am I not smart enough Cuz I'm asking a question that no 00:13:39.571 --> 00:13:44.966 one else in the class is asking You can just get through and then I think I've 00:13:44.966 --> 00:13:49.106 done this myself Like I'll try to do it without the video Right Let me see if I 00:13:49.106 --> 00:13:52.736 really understand this and then okay I didn't get far enough I need to like go 00:13:52.736 --> 00:13:57.146 back and watch it again Do it again Maybe I'll do another sample app and see if I 00:13:57.151 --> 00:14:01.884 can do it without it And you know that YouTube channel that I made Surprisingly 00:14:01.884 --> 00:14:05.272 got picked up by just people learning rails and I think there was like a video 00:14:05.272 --> 00:14:09.922 series that was like one of there was like 13 videos And I think somehow there's the 00:14:09.922 --> 00:14:14.242 13th video is not there And all of the other videos people are so upset They're 00:14:14.242 --> 00:14:16.072 like where's the last video And like 00:14:17.062 --> 00:14:21.352 project Like video is pretty compelling to me It obviously takes a lot of work to 00:14:21.352 --> 00:14:25.742 produce those things as you know but I do think that people are finding it really 00:14:25.742 --> 00:14:29.792 interesting I think on the bottom of this list I see things like programming games 00:14:29.852 --> 00:14:33.928 and podcasts as being on the lower end of that you know we're not teaching you 00:14:33.928 --> 00:14:37.138 how to code on this podcast So I don't think that speaks to anything here but 00:14:37.498 --> 00:14:41.158 I think there's been that dream that we're gonna have these games like code 00:14:41.158 --> 00:14:46.488 combat and and some of like Disney things that are coming out That help you learn 00:14:46.488 --> 00:14:50.208 through gaming which maybe that's just early and maybe we're gonna see that 00:14:50.208 --> 00:14:54.408 stuff get better over time Cuz I think some of those games can be really fun 00:14:54.408 --> 00:14:57.918 for kids to get into it Even if it's maybe you're not learning how to code but 00:14:57.918 --> 00:15:01.335 you're starting to get that programmer's mindset and the problem solving mindset 00:15:02.179 --> 00:15:05.743 CJ Avilla: Yeah So funny enough the there's a book that's called something 00:15:05.743 --> 00:15:11.156 like learned a program with Minecraft And so I sat down with the kids last 00:15:11.156 --> 00:15:17.141 weekend and we set up a Minecraft server and the whole goal was like let's connect 00:15:17.141 --> 00:15:22.451 to the Minecraft server with Python and it took like an hour to get it just set 00:15:22.451 --> 00:15:26.771 up You have to like install all these like crazy packages to get it even like 00:15:27.101 --> 00:15:31.271 to run the right version of the right server And then once that's up and running 00:15:31.276 --> 00:15:34.661 there's several different like Python libraries that interact with different 00:15:34.661 --> 00:15:38.531 versions of Minecraft So there's like you know the Java edition or the the 00:15:38.531 --> 00:15:42.431 raspberry pie edition And when I by the time I finally got it set up they were 00:15:42.431 --> 00:15:46.091 exhausted They were like we don't even care anymore We're just gonna like go play 00:15:46.091 --> 00:15:48.251 Roblox or some other game I'm like okay 00:15:48.757 --> 00:15:52.747 Colin Loretz: Well like Minecraft was not designed for that Right People hacked 00:15:52.747 --> 00:15:56.707 Minecraft but it whether wasn't designed to teach programming it'd be interesting 00:15:56.712 --> 00:16:02.347 to have a game with that as like the core principle Right Like it's just designed 00:16:02.797 --> 00:16:07.057 to be easy to connect to in any language like the APIs maybe it's even literally 00:16:07.057 --> 00:16:11.119 a web API or something it'd be kind of or like you know like Twilio right 00:16:11.119 --> 00:16:14.509 It's like how do we connect to a game without knowing all the underlying stuff 00:16:15.314 --> 00:16:18.434 Just like we connect to a bank through Stripe without having to know how all 00:16:18.434 --> 00:16:20.834 that stuff works I think be interesting 00:16:21.998 --> 00:16:25.508 CJ Avilla: Totally All right Should we move Let's move on from learning how to 00:16:25.508 --> 00:16:29.810 code I know you had a bunch of stuff about professional devs What was surprising 00:16:29.810 --> 00:16:32.210 to you about how yeah How people are 00:16:33.166 --> 00:16:36.676 Colin Loretz: Yeah I I couldn't find what they define as professional developer 00:16:36.736 --> 00:16:41.943 Maybe we'll find that as we talk but 88% of professional developers code outside 00:16:41.943 --> 00:16:47.472 of work with 73% of them coding as a hobby So I think that means that some of them 00:16:47.472 --> 00:16:52.092 are doing work like on the side or maybe they're making like a theme for Shopify 00:16:52.092 --> 00:16:55.692 as like a little side hustle but a lot of people just do it as a hobby And I think 00:16:55.692 --> 00:16:59.835 this does parlay into the how do you learn you know some people like to geek out with 00:16:59.835 --> 00:17:05.265 like I'm gonna go stand up Kubernetes this weekend just for fun Right And then maybe 00:17:05.265 --> 00:17:09.755 they're not using it at work and I think that probably also goes into this question 00:17:09.755 --> 00:17:12.815 that I really love that they asked which is like what do you work with versus what 00:17:12.820 --> 00:17:16.593 do you want to work with you might not get to work with the new thing at work 00:17:16.593 --> 00:17:21.228 And so people are playing with them on the side You know as you get to become 00:17:21.228 --> 00:17:26.628 more senior it looks like senior devs have more and more influence on what tools 00:17:26.628 --> 00:17:31.395 and maybe even purchases that they're gonna make in their companies So you 00:17:31.395 --> 00:17:35.025 know some of those hobbies end up turning into influence on the tech product or 00:17:35.030 --> 00:17:36.865 you know or tech stack of of the company 00:17:38.014 --> 00:17:41.766 CJ Avilla: Absolutely Yeah I think our I don't know if this happens to you but 00:17:41.766 --> 00:17:45.216 I've been hit up on LinkedIn all the time with people just kind like sales people 00:17:45.221 --> 00:17:49.266 cold emailing and trying to pitch their enterprise software product or whatever 00:17:49.266 --> 00:17:51.266 Do you get these these like cold emails 00:17:51.602 --> 00:17:55.407 Colin Loretz: Yeah When I was at panty drop it was a lot more it was like every 00:17:55.407 --> 00:17:59.614 CRM and like enterprise I forgot what they're called anymore The the whole 00:17:59.614 --> 00:18:03.814 backend for logistics and shipping and all that stuff It was like almost daily 00:18:03.847 --> 00:18:08.882 a little bit less so now but yeah I mean they know that senior devs have some 00:18:08.882 --> 00:18:15.992 influence and so if you can you know gain I would say like we'll we'll talk 00:18:15.992 --> 00:18:19.322 about Stripe for a second Like it's like when people look at the docs for Stripe 00:18:19.322 --> 00:18:23.072 versus someone another payment gateway like a lot of devs are gonna be like we 00:18:23.072 --> 00:18:26.942 wanna go with that one Because of what that experience is like or maybe they 00:18:26.942 --> 00:18:31.082 have a really pleasant experience using it on the side and they built their own 00:18:31.082 --> 00:18:34.322 side project with it And so now when it's like Hey we need a payment provider at 00:18:34.322 --> 00:18:38.632 work Like oh we already know how to use this one And you know we there's not a 00:18:38.632 --> 00:18:44.164 big risk in us choosing that how much do you code outside of work I think that's a 00:18:44.283 --> 00:18:47.223 CJ Avilla: Okay Yeah That's an interesting question Also there's like this meme going 00:18:47.223 --> 00:18:52.074 around right I think that it's something like if you were a lawyer no one would 00:18:52.074 --> 00:18:55.314 come to you and be like you should do a bunch of law outside of work you know 00:18:55.314 --> 00:18:58.824 like spend your weekends like writing like 00:18:58.855 --> 00:18:59.605 Colin Loretz: contracts 00:18:59.724 --> 00:19:02.244 CJ Avilla: contract Yeah Whatever writing contract like no lawyer 00:19:02.244 --> 00:19:06.577 is gonna do that Right And so we're in a weird industry I feel 00:19:06.768 --> 00:19:08.928 Colin Loretz: The other one I saw was like what do you do with 00:19:08.928 --> 00:19:10.518 your money or something like that 00:19:11.992 --> 00:19:14.962 CJ Avilla: yeah I have also seen it done like with like medicine like 00:19:15.022 --> 00:19:17.962 as a doctor you're not like spending your weekends like going around 00:19:17.962 --> 00:19:19.412 and trying to find people to fix 00:19:19.471 --> 00:19:22.741 Colin Loretz: or but all your friends are asking you questions anyway So I 00:19:23.281 --> 00:19:23.911 to escape that 00:19:24.335 --> 00:19:29.682 CJ Avilla: Yeah but yeah I also have encountered lots of devs in my career 00:19:29.682 --> 00:19:35.607 who are just like I'm just here to get a paycheck and you know To go home and 00:19:35.607 --> 00:19:40.167 live my life outside of the computer and outside of my phone and outside of the 00:19:40.167 --> 00:19:44.337 internet And I've also met a lot of other people And I think maybe both you and I 00:19:44.337 --> 00:19:49.317 probably fit into this camp which is more like we truly genuinely love this stuff 00:19:49.317 --> 00:19:54.470 And so we I don't know like maybe yeah I'm putting words in your mouth but I I 00:19:54.470 --> 00:19:59.690 personally really really enjoy building things and experimenting and it to me 00:19:59.690 --> 00:20:05.225 it feels a lot some artistic or creative outlet where you can build and write 00:20:05.225 --> 00:20:10.535 code that solves some problem or build and write code that is you know creating 00:20:10.535 --> 00:20:17.636 some creative some creative output So I think I absolutely code outside of 00:20:17.636 --> 00:20:23.327 work It waxes and wanes for sure But depending on the year you can probably 00:20:23.327 --> 00:20:27.666 go look at the GitHub squares but like yeah if if we were to add up all the time 00:20:27.666 --> 00:20:33.201 outside of work I think You know it's probably more than people would say is 00:20:33.201 --> 00:20:38.818 healthy but it's definitely definitely something that I enjoy doing especially 00:20:38.818 --> 00:20:43.198 when I kind of find or start working on a project that I'm really really 00:20:43.198 --> 00:20:47.998 interested in So if I've if I'm building a you know like a side project or if I'm 00:20:47.998 --> 00:20:51.838 building a side hustle or whatever and I get really really into it then I can 00:20:51.838 --> 00:20:56.233 easily sink like 20 hours on a weekend into something Also come out on the 00:20:56.233 --> 00:21:00.433 other end feeling like really energized And like I had a ton of fun so I don't 00:21:01.329 --> 00:21:03.789 Colin Loretz: I think this is the tricky one And that's probably where that meme 00:21:03.794 --> 00:21:08.259 is coming from too is though I think that some people believe like that It's not 00:21:08.259 --> 00:21:12.729 a good sign That like if a recruiter's expecting that you spend your weekends 00:21:12.729 --> 00:21:16.859 building side projects or Like cuz a lot of people don't have the time or 00:21:16.859 --> 00:21:21.629 the energy Right They might not have the ability to do this and that doesn't make 00:21:21.629 --> 00:21:25.739 you a bad programmer I I would say like for me I actually noticed this when I 00:21:25.744 --> 00:21:31.464 was reading the survey like in my current job I don't always Code every single day 00:21:31.464 --> 00:21:34.914 like they'll definitely be meeting heavy days and then I'll have my kind of flow 00:21:34.914 --> 00:21:39.444 productive days But like at the end of the day I cannot code like right now Like 00:21:39.444 --> 00:21:43.524 I'm just in a phase right now And maybe this is just more of like this season 00:21:43.524 --> 00:21:48.204 is not the season for side projects and side coding but it's like by the time 00:21:48.204 --> 00:21:53.124 the day is over I am spent I need to get away from a screen I need to go out and 00:21:53.124 --> 00:21:58.494 do stuff That way I can come back and do it again tomorrow And it doesn't and I'm 00:21:58.494 --> 00:22:02.244 not feeling like burnt out by any means It's just I know that if I also went home 00:22:02.244 --> 00:22:06.654 and sat in front of a screen again and did some more code I would get burnt out 00:22:06.714 --> 00:22:11.274 And so I'm okay with that right now I'm like trying to like just say I don't need 00:22:11.364 --> 00:22:15.264 I have all these ideas I've got lots of things right We all do but they don't 00:22:15.264 --> 00:22:20.392 need to be done right now and I'm okay Giving that energy to to my job right now 00:22:22.092 --> 00:22:26.532 But when I was you know more like when I was running the co-working space I was 00:22:26.532 --> 00:22:31.662 tinkering with you know all sorts of APIs for Google calendars and door locks and 00:22:31.932 --> 00:22:36.342 stuff because it was like a tool And for me it's kind of like DIY like working 00:22:36.342 --> 00:22:40.242 around the house or whatever It's like I have a hammer that I know how to use 00:22:40.752 --> 00:22:44.532 and this can be good or bad Right It's like okay now everything is gonna be a 00:22:44.532 --> 00:22:50.782 code solution but you you don't have to go out and look An app when you can maybe 00:22:50.782 --> 00:22:54.382 like wire together some APIs and things And that can be really fun I think for me 00:22:54.382 --> 00:22:59.085 playing with APIs is the most fun but I do think like you said like I'm a lawyer 00:22:59.090 --> 00:23:03.374 I'm not gonna be writing contracts for you know acquisitions on the weekend So 00:23:03.374 --> 00:23:07.004 why do I expect this from from a software developer And I think you know if you're 00:23:07.004 --> 00:23:11.789 trying to learn It is a great way to learn if you're trying to level up I think they 00:23:11.849 --> 00:23:16.859 like I said in this survey like how are people up leveling going literally from 00:23:16.859 --> 00:23:22.469 levels to levels and increasing their salaries Like does that require this on 00:23:22.474 --> 00:23:26.519 the side Or is there a way to carve this out at work so that you're doing your 00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:31.679 learning at work I know Like at orbit if someone has a goal of learning something 00:23:31.859 --> 00:23:35.819 the engineering manager's like put it on your calendar don't make it a side project 00:23:35.819 --> 00:23:40.379 put it on the table If it's reading an hour in the morning to start your day 00:23:40.379 --> 00:23:44.609 whatever it looks like like that's good cuz it's gonna make you better So I think 00:23:44.699 --> 00:23:47.409 you know it's important to make sure that people don't think that they have 00:23:47.409 --> 00:23:51.089 to like be always on a hundred percent programmer to make it in this industry 00:23:51.873 --> 00:23:57.522 CJ Avilla: Yeah I that is a great point And yeah I I've definitely been in phases 00:23:57.522 --> 00:24:02.952 where after work there's I cannot write another line of code I do not wanna see 00:24:02.952 --> 00:24:07.923 it And I've also had phases where it's like Work for eight or nine hours writing 00:24:07.923 --> 00:24:12.933 code go have dinner and then come back and write eight or nine more hours of code for 00:24:12.933 --> 00:24:16.203 like three months straight you know like building all these little side hustles 00:24:16.203 --> 00:24:19.960 inside projects and doing contracts and wherever yeah like just really getting 00:24:20.110 --> 00:24:25.036 getting into flow and loving it but yeah it I think like you said yeah you'll 00:24:25.036 --> 00:24:30.201 go through seasons and it's not a hard requirement to be good I also sometimes 00:24:30.201 --> 00:24:34.401 when I think about it too I think like obviously at the end of those second 00:24:34.941 --> 00:24:39.651 shift like eight hour sessions I would be hitting bugs where I'm like what is 00:24:39.651 --> 00:24:43.011 going on here And it would be something so so trivial and then you just go to 00:24:43.016 --> 00:24:47.241 sleep you wake up You're like okay I was obviously like way burnt out and like 00:24:47.241 --> 00:24:51.681 well beyond the not the baller curve but whatever the curve is that you need 00:24:51.707 --> 00:24:52.097 Colin Loretz: sleep 00:24:52.851 --> 00:24:57.387 CJ Avilla: Yeah exactly so yeah that can be that can be bad too but I don't know 00:24:57.387 --> 00:25:02.558 I think oh right Coming back to this like concept of the 10,000 hours or whatever 00:25:02.558 --> 00:25:06.338 right Like in order to become an expert you kind of like gotta put in the gotta 00:25:06.338 --> 00:25:12.833 put in the hours And so for some people they Want to front load that and like 00:25:12.833 --> 00:25:16.823 learn as much as they can early early in their career and then start to smooth it 00:25:16.823 --> 00:25:21.413 out for other peoples It it's more of a you know a marathon where you wanna make 00:25:21.413 --> 00:25:24.833 a career outta this and you know you're gonna be in this for 15 20 years And so 00:25:25.163 --> 00:25:28.850 you can kind of pace it out this kind of brings us to another part of the survey 00:25:28.850 --> 00:25:32.960 that I thought was pretty interesting And that is the like years of coding question 00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:39.008 where it's like how many years have you been Writing code and why I think this 00:25:39.008 --> 00:25:43.688 is interesting is cuz I wonder like are people okay so first of all if you look 00:25:43.688 --> 00:25:49.838 at the graph it peaks out at about 30% of the people responding have between five 00:25:49.838 --> 00:25:56.282 and nine years of experience 20% with one to four and then around 20% with 10 00:25:56.282 --> 00:26:02.087 to 10 to 14 And so I'm like okay people are peaking around Like nine years right 00:26:02.537 --> 00:26:06.587 and then what are they doing after that Right If you like people learn to code 00:26:06.617 --> 00:26:10.727 they put in all this effort to learn how to code online or whatever through books 00:26:10.757 --> 00:26:15.057 and then they only spend nine years doing it Whereas maybe going back to the lawyer 00:26:15.057 --> 00:26:19.088 analogy right If you become a lawyer you might be a lawyer for like 60 years or I 00:26:19.088 --> 00:26:22.268 don't know not 60 40 years And then retire 00:26:23.284 --> 00:26:25.924 Colin Loretz: But you also had to do all your learning front loaded like 00:26:25.924 --> 00:26:27.844 in a very extreme way Right It's 00:26:27.908 --> 00:26:28.868 CJ Avilla: True Yeah 00:26:28.894 --> 00:26:33.214 Colin Loretz: very extreme and very expensive My brother went to law school 00:26:33.214 --> 00:26:36.904 and I think he's got some regrets when he looks at like programming 00:26:37.448 --> 00:26:38.706 CJ Avilla: Oh really interesting 00:26:38.748 --> 00:26:41.328 Colin Loretz: I won't speak for him Maybe we'll have him on one day to talk 00:26:41.328 --> 00:26:45.348 about the difference between programming and lawyers Since that's not a an area 00:26:45.348 --> 00:26:50.655 I thought that we would compare to but it's yeah there's Again I think go and 00:26:50.655 --> 00:26:55.245 look at the survey and kind of interpret it and kind of put yourself in it If you 00:26:55.245 --> 00:26:58.663 didn't participate in the survey like just look at it see if it kind of matches 00:26:58.663 --> 00:27:02.563 what you expect reality to look like or if there's some surprises for yourself 00:27:02.568 --> 00:27:06.377 Cuz I think you definitely found some of the more fun things I think when we 00:27:06.377 --> 00:27:10.007 start getting into programming languages you mentioned like how far down the 00:27:10.012 --> 00:27:14.240 list some Most commonly used programming languages are JavaScript is pretty much 00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:20.441 at the top of the list and I loved that Ruby was like 50% loved and 50% dreaded 00:27:20.795 --> 00:27:25.625 CJ Avilla: yeah so well we have to frame it like loved and dreaded So yeah in 00:27:25.625 --> 00:27:29.675 the survey I don't actually remember how they asked these questions Do you 00:27:29.941 --> 00:27:33.091 Colin Loretz: I don't either but because I think that might have changed how people 00:27:33.091 --> 00:27:36.961 interpret it but like cuz I love how they're like this one is the most there's 00:27:36.961 --> 00:27:41.281 I think there was a programming tool that was like the most highest paying but it 00:27:41.281 --> 00:27:45.931 was also the most dreaded I think it chef was the highest paying but most dreaded 00:27:45.931 --> 00:27:49.904 tool so clearly like they're trying to get a sense of like what do people like 00:27:49.904 --> 00:27:55.624 to work with versus what do Have to work with and what do they dread I'm gonna 00:27:55.624 --> 00:27:57.604 actually it up in another window here 00:27:57.963 --> 00:28:00.933 CJ Avilla: It's also super interesting to see how much things pay right Because 00:28:00.933 --> 00:28:06.705 if you look at tech stacks the you know rails is pretty far down the list in terms 00:28:06.705 --> 00:28:12.226 of the tech stacks that people prefer But then when you look at the highest paying 00:28:12.226 --> 00:28:17.236 tech stacks rails is number two So that's like I don't know It's I think that's 00:28:17.236 --> 00:28:21.646 pretty interesting especially depending on what you're trying to optimize for So 00:28:22.122 --> 00:28:25.092 Colin Loretz: well without looking at it what would you have guessed the high 00:28:25.092 --> 00:28:27.132 the most loved language would've been 00:28:27.856 --> 00:28:31.496 CJ Avilla: the most loved language I would've guessed JavaScript Y 00:28:32.142 --> 00:28:35.262 Colin Loretz: And would you have been surprised to hear rust as the answer 00:28:36.356 --> 00:28:36.576 CJ Avilla: yes 00:28:36.822 --> 00:28:40.272 Colin Loretz: Because how many people are even using rust like that guess is 00:28:40.272 --> 00:28:44.232 the bigger part of this Like it does have the number of responses for each 00:28:44.232 --> 00:28:50.322 of these So like for example type script had 18,000 responses whereas rust only 00:28:50.322 --> 00:28:56.112 had 5,746 So I don't know if there's a way to see this This is by percentage 00:28:56.112 --> 00:29:01.495 of responses I think but even like rust Elixer closure type script Julia like we 00:29:01.495 --> 00:29:05.785 still haven't hit I guess we got a little bit of JavaScript in there Python comes 00:29:05.785 --> 00:29:12.803 in at 67% loved versus 32% dreaded but again Ruby is literally down in the bottom 00:29:12.803 --> 00:29:18.494 here with the middle 50 50 and then on the very bottom we got Matlab and Cobal. 00:29:20.508 --> 00:29:24.906 CJ Avilla: So yeah like from my experience which is limited I've done 00:29:24.906 --> 00:29:30.246 like hello world and rust and hello world plus a little bit with a Elixer and I 00:29:30.246 --> 00:29:35.106 definitely prefer to Elixer over rust And so part of me is wondering like okay 00:29:35.111 --> 00:29:39.066 nobody has written well very very few people have written every single one of 00:29:39.066 --> 00:29:44.200 these languages Number one number two like the communities are probably going 00:29:44.200 --> 00:29:51.700 to have different resources So this this Only really represents those developers 00:29:51.700 --> 00:29:57.070 who are on stack overflow engaged on stack overflow And so there's a chance 00:29:57.070 --> 00:30:01.840 that there's languages on here that are misrepresented because they're much easier 00:30:02.080 --> 00:30:05.983 to use and maybe you don't end up going to stack overflow for answers and so 00:30:06.259 --> 00:30:09.529 Colin Loretz: We're over indexing on why why you would go to stack overflow 00:30:10.378 --> 00:30:15.568 CJ Avilla: Well I think okay So part of me thinks that stack overflow plays obviously 00:30:15.568 --> 00:30:18.808 it plays a very very important role in all programming right You that's where you're 00:30:18.813 --> 00:30:23.758 gonna go when you have your questions But I also know that stack overflow is built 00:30:23.758 --> 00:30:30.148 with.net and early in my career as a.net dev When stack overflow is just starting 00:30:30.148 --> 00:30:35.878 out I remember using it heavily and there being a lot of C sharp and.net question 00:30:35.878 --> 00:30:41.548 and answer And so part of me wonders is the.net representation of like the 00:30:41.548 --> 00:30:46.883 answers here skewed a little bit because more.net devs are using stack overflow 00:30:46.883 --> 00:30:50.143 or or is this yeah like a pretty pure 00:30:51.804 --> 00:30:55.494 Colin Loretz: I I mean I would even say that like for ides like I would say the 00:30:55.884 --> 00:31:00.504 one of the more surprising things is how fast visual studio code has like rocketed 00:31:00.534 --> 00:31:07.482 to like the most used tool Neo VM was the highest by 1% more but visual studio 00:31:07.482 --> 00:31:14.502 code like who would've thought like I use visual studio forever go but let Microsoft 00:31:14.502 --> 00:31:20.142 would be the one to release the IDE that everyone on you know is using on the Mac 00:31:20.142 --> 00:31:24.462 and on the PC And you know obviously they bought GitHub as well which gave them 00:31:24.467 --> 00:31:28.312 Adam which looked very similar And I think they had kind of absorbed that But it 00:31:28.312 --> 00:31:32.242 is fun to kind of see all the different tools there It's just it's so interesting 00:31:32.242 --> 00:31:36.532 to think about like what what bias might exist in this They do have a methodology 00:31:36.532 --> 00:31:41.602 section and don't know if they go into the the stack overflow bias here at all 00:31:41.602 --> 00:31:45.862 but you know it's it's like if you hang out in places where people like to geek 00:31:45.862 --> 00:31:50.903 out about rusts like of course Russ is gonna be the top one but it's similar to 00:31:51.203 --> 00:31:57.008 when we talk about you mentioned highest paying Technologies like we see what we we 00:31:57.008 --> 00:32:02.348 are we're a rails shop at orbit and some PE like I see a lot of job openings for 00:32:02.348 --> 00:32:09.893 rails but then you hear people saying like rails Dying rails is old Rails is slow 00:32:09.893 --> 00:32:14.933 Like you hear all these things and it's also productive It's also like there's 00:32:14.933 --> 00:32:19.373 all these other things that people don't write Those like thought leadership pieces 00:32:19.373 --> 00:32:23.363 about because just they're busy writing code and being productive I guess But 00:32:23.727 --> 00:32:29.165 CJ Avilla: Yeah Yeah I think one of the things so just yesterday I was watching 00:32:29.195 --> 00:32:37.430 some of the talks from jams stack comp from 2021 and the the creator of spelt 00:32:37.449 --> 00:32:43.094 rich Harris right yeah Rich Harris the creators felt was talking about these 00:32:43.094 --> 00:32:47.382 new this new type of like front end jams stack application that's felt sort of 00:32:47.382 --> 00:32:55.057 embodies And that is something that can pass server rendered HTML Or it can render 00:32:55.057 --> 00:32:58.807 on the client or it can be like partially rendered on the client And there's all 00:32:58.812 --> 00:33:01.627 these like really really interesting technologies that are happening in the 00:33:01.627 --> 00:33:05.197 JAMstack ecosystem And with front end frameworks in general with like next and 00:33:05.197 --> 00:33:10.560 server side rendering and spelt kit and remix and all of these different tools on 00:33:10.560 --> 00:33:13.950 the front end And he was kind of bagging on rails a little bit saying like oh hot 00:33:13.950 --> 00:33:18.765 wire Has X Y and Z issues And like if you look on GitHub and he was able to point 00:33:18.765 --> 00:33:22.305 out like here is some Jan that you find on GitHub because GitHub is built with 00:33:22.305 --> 00:33:26.895 rails and using hot wire that you would not have if you were to build like this 00:33:26.895 --> 00:33:33.435 high fidelity jams stack app basically And so part of me number one wonders 00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:38.831 like like obviously his felt is pretty high on the list of web frameworks but 00:33:38.831 --> 00:33:43.286 also Are people saying that rails is dead because it's falling behind in terms 00:33:43.286 --> 00:33:47.355 of the trends that are happening on the front end but then I also question like 00:33:48.660 --> 00:33:52.950 like remix are coming out where a lot of your tooling is server side rendered 00:33:52.950 --> 00:33:58.230 HTML going back to the web browser basics and really kind of embracing like all of 00:33:58.230 --> 00:34:03.270 the standard HTTP stuff Like okay Yeah You put a form and you have an action 00:34:03.270 --> 00:34:06.480 in the form which specifies the route to which you're gonna send your post 00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:10.440 request And like that's just gonna use the names on your inputs and pass those 00:34:10.500 --> 00:34:14.760 back to the server and use kind of like all the things that we would've used 00:34:14.786 --> 00:34:15.386 Colin Loretz: in rails 00:34:16.020 --> 00:34:20.040 CJ Avilla: Exactly It's a giant cycle Yeah And so I am kind of curious to see how 00:34:20.460 --> 00:34:27.210 that waxes in wanes over time Obviously it doesn't feel as sexy right Like the 00:34:27.210 --> 00:34:32.789 using remix Is is I'm I'm so so glad that remix is kind of like making it cool again 00:34:33.239 --> 00:34:37.239 to use standard web fundamentals because it wasn't sexy to just be like okay 00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:41.169 this is a boring app That's just written with HTML and has like these server 00:34:41.169 --> 00:34:45.699 rendered routes that are just gonna spit back HTML or put stuff in the database 00:34:45.699 --> 00:34:47.199 or pull things outta the database So 00:34:48.035 --> 00:34:50.375 Colin Loretz: Yeah they didn't get into it in the survey but I think like the 00:34:50.375 --> 00:34:55.145 next level is even just standard web components Like I got exposed to those 00:34:55.150 --> 00:35:00.095 through Shopify and it's like I don't have to include any JavaScript Right I mean 00:35:00.095 --> 00:35:04.505 I have access to whatever is built into the browser I don't have to use react I 00:35:04.505 --> 00:35:08.825 don't have to worry about what this is This the thing that I'm in Right All this 00:35:08.825 --> 00:35:13.082 kinds of things are really interesting and I haven't played with spelt but what you 00:35:13.082 --> 00:35:17.312 just talked about is making me want to go play with spelt a little bit see how that 00:35:17.317 --> 00:35:21.722 works Cuz I have also haven't touched hot wire or or any of those things in rails 00:35:21.722 --> 00:35:25.802 yet but I know we use some of that at orbit and it's been interesting to see 00:35:25.807 --> 00:35:30.062 like how much of this is us geeking out on tools and how much of it is like how 00:35:30.272 --> 00:35:35.437 us ship stuff Better faster and maintain it all of that Like how easy is it to 00:35:35.437 --> 00:35:40.897 onboard a new member which actually I think there was a conversation about that 00:35:41.347 --> 00:35:46.867 in here which is just like how easy is it to find answers to things How easy what's 00:35:46.867 --> 00:35:52.617 like the Perceived time to onboard And a lot of people are like yeah if it it 00:35:52.617 --> 00:35:56.097 always takes longer than than the company thinks it's gonna take for me to onboard 00:35:56.101 --> 00:35:59.177 Which I think is important Like if you're joining a new team and you feel like you 00:35:59.182 --> 00:36:03.893 don't understand what's going on like Existing code bases are hard your team 00:36:03.893 --> 00:36:07.643 may or may not have a good onboarding flow It's not necessarily your fault 00:36:07.693 --> 00:36:11.563 give the feedback and maybe even use the survey to prove that that's the 00:36:11.568 --> 00:36:13.243 case for most people And it's not you 00:36:14.462 --> 00:36:19.292 CJ Avilla: when you when you onboarded at orbit how long did it take Like how 00:36:19.292 --> 00:36:23.607 long did it take and how long did you were you sort of told like okay we've 00:36:23.607 --> 00:36:27.177 allotted two months for you to get up to speed or like two weeks for you 00:36:27.177 --> 00:36:29.907 to be like shipping your first stuff or whatever What was that experience 00:36:29.948 --> 00:36:33.313 Colin Loretz: I was joining kind of at like transitional time So they were trying 00:36:33.313 --> 00:36:37.352 to figure that out and I think you know most teams it's probably likely The case 00:36:37.357 --> 00:36:40.386 when most people joined anything they're like oh we're changing some stuff you 00:36:40.391 --> 00:36:43.406 know and there when I first joined I found a document that was like a 30, 60, 00:36:43.406 --> 00:36:47.655 90 plan never really had to follow that though Cause that kind of stopped being 00:36:47.660 --> 00:36:53.205 adopted What was more interesting to me was like once I had all my accounts and 00:36:53.205 --> 00:36:56.985 had access to everything it was just like world building in my head Like I gotta 00:36:56.985 --> 00:37:03.265 build up what do we use When do we use it How does this code work becomes what 00:37:03.325 --> 00:37:07.345 is important for me to know to do the ticket That is my first ticket you know 00:37:07.345 --> 00:37:11.035 was this first ticket even designed to be an onboarding ticket or was it just like 00:37:12.055 --> 00:37:15.385 thrown in the deep end type of thing And like I was actually thinking about this 00:37:15.385 --> 00:37:17.965 the other day because I was working on a piece of code that when I first joined 00:37:17.965 --> 00:37:23.395 I was like I do not even understand what this why this is even in here Like what is 00:37:23.395 --> 00:37:29.270 it doing Why is it so complicated And now it's I'm refactoring that because I really 00:37:29.270 --> 00:37:33.590 understand what it's doing And I know that like actually I think it was like Rubo 00:37:33.590 --> 00:37:38.510 cops specifically said this thing is too complicated Now you can't commit And I was 00:37:38.510 --> 00:37:41.840 like all right we're gonna fix it because I knew it was complicated when I joined 00:37:42.050 --> 00:37:46.185 I I didn't understand it then So like is every new engineer gonna look at this and 00:37:46.185 --> 00:37:49.905 be like I don't know how to coat because I don't understand this thing I was like no 00:37:49.905 --> 00:37:53.674 it's it was written in a way that could be made better it had to do with devise and 00:37:53.674 --> 00:37:58.429 Omni off and all that fun stuff but like it is really fun when you I don't know if 00:37:58.429 --> 00:38:02.379 you've felt this but There's almost like a light switch moment where you've just 00:38:02.379 --> 00:38:06.699 been in a code base for a certain amount of time And all of a sudden it's like 00:38:06.759 --> 00:38:10.580 oh I understand where things are where how they work whereas like a few days 00:38:10.585 --> 00:38:14.750 ago it might have been like you were in another country not speaking the language 00:38:15.879 --> 00:38:19.749 CJ Avilla: Yeah I think it definitely depends on the size of the code base the 00:38:20.109 --> 00:38:24.819 like familiarity with the language Right Like I think when I started at when I 00:38:24.819 --> 00:38:30.024 started at my VR I didn't know any Python And we were building a Jengo app with 00:38:30.024 --> 00:38:32.934 an angular front end I never worked with angular and I never worked with Python 00:38:32.994 --> 00:38:37.884 And so it was like okay you have to learn this giant code base that O at the at the 00:38:37.884 --> 00:38:42.024 time I think it had over a million lines of code You also have to learn Python You 00:38:42.029 --> 00:38:47.004 also have to learn angular and like the business and the people and the processes 00:38:47.004 --> 00:38:51.730 and the whatever And While I was fixing bugs probably in the first couple weeks 00:38:51.730 --> 00:38:55.870 I definitely was not like productive in terms of adding like massive features 00:38:55.870 --> 00:39:00.850 or being able to pull my own weight for three to six months And this is something 00:39:00.855 --> 00:39:05.890 that we tell people that join our team at strip too is like yeah like when 00:39:05.890 --> 00:39:09.940 you join we expect the bandwidth of the team to go down Like there's going to 00:39:09.940 --> 00:39:15.995 be negative Based on you joining because we all need to work together as a team 00:39:15.995 --> 00:39:20.525 to bring you up to speed and like answer any question that you have and make 00:39:20.530 --> 00:39:25.265 sure that you feel fully supported and enabled so that you can get off on a good 00:39:25.265 --> 00:39:29.419 foot so yeah I think if you're joining a new team or if you're just starting 00:39:29.419 --> 00:39:33.349 out as a junior dev like don't feel bad if you're not you know crushing it in 00:39:33.349 --> 00:39:35.209 your first couple weeks like I would say 00:39:35.700 --> 00:39:39.510 Colin Loretz: Yeah well and like an onboarding document is only gonna get 00:39:39.510 --> 00:39:44.650 you so prepared right It's shadowing you know the teammates it's asking questions 00:39:44.790 --> 00:39:49.410 It which I think you know brings up some of the other questions around remote A 00:39:49.410 --> 00:39:53.808 lot of people surveyed here Again this is gonna be skewed based on stack overflow 00:39:53.808 --> 00:39:59.172 but 85% of organizations are at least partially remote which I think changes a 00:39:59.172 --> 00:40:01.572 lot of this stuff I think the other one that I wrote down that which I thought 00:40:01.572 --> 00:40:06.822 was key to stack overflow was that more than 60% of the developers surveyed and 00:40:06.822 --> 00:40:11.502 I I collapsed a bunch of the options It was basically the 30 to 120 minutes a day 00:40:11.502 --> 00:40:17.642 spent looking for answers Right So that means that at a minimum I would say more 00:40:17.822 --> 00:40:20.612 the most of the people we're spending at least an hour So if you have an eight 00:40:20.612 --> 00:40:25.022 hour Workday one hour is chalked up to just looking for an answer to something 00:40:25.093 --> 00:40:28.363 you might have a meeting you might have a standup So like already you're starting 00:40:28.363 --> 00:40:31.586 to see the day get whittled away you know and when I've talked to my engineering 00:40:31.586 --> 00:40:36.086 manager we we kind of talked about like I used to be really productive at nighttime 00:40:36.206 --> 00:40:40.356 and I would get all I would like Do my meetings during the day kind of slack off 00:40:40.356 --> 00:40:44.436 during the day maybe take some long lunch do some errands And because I'm remote 00:40:44.436 --> 00:40:48.636 I'm gonna work at night and I get so much done at night Right And we really had 00:40:48.636 --> 00:40:52.656 to think like okay why can't we get work done during the day Like we need to fix 00:40:52.656 --> 00:40:56.577 this and you learn a little bit of like the remote work hygiene of like setting 00:40:56.577 --> 00:41:01.197 statuses and turning off alert alerts and putting on headphones and all that kind of 00:41:01.197 --> 00:41:04.767 stuff so that you can just get into your state cuz I would prefer to not have to 00:41:04.767 --> 00:41:10.607 work at Right And I've figured out ways of having maybe like no meeting days or 00:41:11.057 --> 00:41:15.624 no meeting afternoons whatever that looks like So that that's flow time and making 00:41:15.629 --> 00:41:19.824 sure that like I know that some of that time's still gonna be spent reading docs 00:41:19.854 --> 00:41:23.819 looking for answers maybe even talking to the team but that you know again you're 00:41:23.819 --> 00:41:27.029 not going to be writing code for eight hours a day Like it's just impossible 00:41:27.313 --> 00:41:31.603 CJ Avilla: Yep Totally Totally Yeah It's it's unrealistic too to believe that 00:41:31.603 --> 00:41:36.673 you can write code for eight hours a day and it come out in any valuable state 00:41:37.183 --> 00:41:41.263 like without it being yeah something that takes a long time to parse or 00:41:41.263 --> 00:41:43.993 get merged or whatever especially like if you're collaborating and you need 00:41:43.993 --> 00:41:46.378 to like work through PRs whatever. 00:41:46.678 --> 00:41:49.828 There was one last thing that I wanted to like one last question on here that 00:41:49.828 --> 00:41:53.124 I thought was super surprising And then I think we could wrap it up hugging face 00:41:53.124 --> 00:41:59.394 transformers was the number one most loved library And I before reading the survey 00:41:59.394 --> 00:42:01.314 and like Googling this I had never heard 00:42:01.361 --> 00:42:01.640 Colin Loretz: of this 00:42:02.304 --> 00:42:06.933 CJ Avilla: So I was like what the what is hugging face transformers and so 00:42:06.933 --> 00:42:12.846 what I gather from the website hugging face.co Is that it is build the AI 00:42:12.846 --> 00:42:16.864 community building the future So it's like a community of models and machine 00:42:16.864 --> 00:42:22.640 learning tools for building some like AI stuff but I don't know Had you heard 00:42:22.676 --> 00:42:24.896 Colin Loretz: tell you can tell that we do not do this stuff 00:42:25.080 --> 00:42:25.470 CJ Avilla: we try to 00:42:25.496 --> 00:42:29.156 Colin Loretz: explain it I had not heard of it And I did Google it as well Cuz it 00:42:29.156 --> 00:42:34.616 stuck out in the list What I love about this is that it brings some of the fun 00:42:34.616 --> 00:42:40.396 and joy of like what we used to see in the early days of Ruby to AI right This 00:42:40.396 --> 00:42:44.296 idea like I don't know the origin of why it's called hugging face I'm sure there 00:42:44.296 --> 00:42:47.968 is one We'll have to look for it if you know about this and you're listening 00:42:47.968 --> 00:42:51.658 out there we'd love to talk more about this Cause this is like a whole area of 00:42:51.658 --> 00:42:56.488 the internet and programming that I know nothing about Right And I know models and 00:42:56.488 --> 00:42:59.998 machine learning and AI are getting really popular You have people sharing all these 00:42:59.998 --> 00:43:04.586 like Dolly generated photos and things I don't know if this has anything to do 00:43:04.586 --> 00:43:08.436 with that if we don't even know what we're talking about but it does look like it's 00:43:08.676 --> 00:43:13.827 transformers for pie torch TensorFlow and jacks So those are all three things I've 00:43:13.827 --> 00:43:18.703 never used before but I love the fun to it There's another link that I'll post 00:43:18.703 --> 00:43:23.113 in the show notes that I loved which is just like why is the internet not fun 00:43:23.113 --> 00:43:29.063 and weird anymore kind of becoming like These like Facebook's starting to look 00:43:29.063 --> 00:43:31.853 like Instagram and Instagram's looking like this other thing And everything's 00:43:31.853 --> 00:43:35.795 just becoming like either everything looks like bootstrap and tailwind and 00:43:35.800 --> 00:43:40.385 not like the old geo citys mice face like explore blink you know all that kind of 00:43:40.385 --> 00:43:44.448 fun stuff So how do we make the internet fun and weird again again there might be 00:43:44.448 --> 00:43:47.924 a reason why this is called I don't know if you found it why this is called what 00:43:47.924 --> 00:43:50.548 it's called but it looks like it might be something we might have to play with 00:43:51.352 --> 00:43:54.832 CJ Avilla: Yeah I did not figure out what it's called right before we recorded this 00:43:54.832 --> 00:44:01.087 podcast though I hosted a Twitter space with Mike by Foco who is another developer 00:44:01.087 --> 00:44:07.337 advocate at Stripe and he is working on this thing called speech writer.ai Which 00:44:07.337 --> 00:44:13.547 is a tool That'll let you write like best man speeches or inauguration speeches or 00:44:13.547 --> 00:44:18.491 things like this where it's using open AI which is another tool that uses or 00:44:18.491 --> 00:44:23.621 that has like G P T three is some other model And so there's like some API you 00:44:23.626 --> 00:44:27.851 basically like ask a questions and then it will do some fancy machine learning thing 00:44:27.856 --> 00:44:33.741 and then spit back some answers But yeah hugging face transforms looks Like it's 00:44:33.741 --> 00:44:36.106 related in some way so we'll have Yeah 00:44:36.582 --> 00:44:38.742 Colin Loretz: We'll we'll have to dig into that one and come back 00:44:38.742 --> 00:44:40.752 to it in the future but awesome 00:44:40.861 --> 00:44:41.081 CJ Avilla: Yep 00:44:42.432 --> 00:44:46.982 Colin Loretz: So yeah that's the 2022 Stack Overflow developer survey definitely 00:44:46.982 --> 00:44:50.025 take a look at it We'll put a link in the show notes if there's anything 00:44:50.030 --> 00:44:54.495 that you wanna see us talk about in future episodes definitely hit us up 00:44:54.495 --> 00:44:57.444 on Twitter my Twitter is @colinloretz. 00:44:57.464 --> 00:45:00.314 We'll put it in the show notes And what is yours CJ? 00:45:00.513 --> 00:45:04.733 CJ Avilla: Mine's at C J underscore dev and yeah Thanks so much for listening 00:45:04.823 --> 00:45:06.053 Really appreciate your time and attention 00:45:06.604 --> 00:45:07.744 Colin Loretz: All right we'll see you next week