Welcome to a Vision for Learning, where we discuss our vision
for what learning can be.
I'm your host, Jethro Jones, and today I'm excited to have Dr.
Shannon Putman on the show.
She's the founder and owner of Putman XR Consulting, a company that focuses
on using the most bleeding edge technology to improve instruction.
She believes that quality instruction transcends subject matter and age,
so they don't focus on a specific field or content, but on improving
performance across all disciplines, including educational classrooms,
athletic fields, and industry.
I'm very excited about having her on the show because she's been doing
this for a long time, and I even read her dissertation about using
virtual reality in, pre-service.
Learning opportunities for teachers.
super nerdy, but super fascinating.
And Shannon, welcome to a Vision for learning.
Thanks for coming.
Thank you for having me.
It's exciting.
So what's the takeaway from our show today that you think everybody
should listen to it For I.
I think if anybody's ever had any interest in virtual reality or if there's any
educators who are like, you know what?
I need something new, something to switch it up.
I need some help.
Then I.
Coming from a classroom teacher who has been doing it, who understands,
then they can listen and hear some great ways that they can include
this technology in their instruction.
Yeah, I think what I enjoyed the most was hearing your
vast experience of doing this.
and we just barely scratched the surface.
I.
We're re recording and releasing this the day before the Apple Vision
Pro comes out, and so we're gonna talk about that first and some of
your thoughts and ideas around that.
But the big thing is when Apple enters the field, they're a huge company and
they're doing a lot in the space, but when they come in, as you say, it makes people
realize that this thing is here to stay.
and I think that's very accurate and apt, way to describe it right now.
For me, the big thing was hearing your vast experience, how you've already
done this, with the resources that you've had and other VR headsets.
And I just think that it's really cool.
To hear what's available already, a different way that people can
look at this and see how they can apply it to their classrooms and
to their learning experiences.
my interview with Shannon is coming up here in just a moment.
Thanks so much for listening to a Vision for Learning.
Shannon, I think the best place to start would be talking about the Apple Vision
Pro and where you see it fitting in this larger virtual reality ecosystem and what
you've been working in for a long time.
So what are your thoughts about the Apple Vision Pro itself?
Yeah, so that's a fantastic question because it's always exciting when you
see Apple get involved in something.
I like to say that if Apple's doing it, you know, it's here to stay.
And as somebody who's been working in VR for 10 plus years and has
heard the doomsday statement, every year of VR is dead.
And knowing that that's not true, it's very exciting.
I love the idea of the wear of it.
I love the comfort use idea of it.
The what we call an industry pass through or mixed reality is also fantastic
because there are people who are very hesitant to try virtual reality.
They don't like to not be able to see their own environment.
all of those things are incredibly exciting.
I love the idea of having multiple onscreen displays.
I do think depending on the customer, that's going to
need to be a little bit more.
if coming from the educational space, there's not a huge demand that I've
personally seen to have multiple screens.
That's because we haven't done
Yeah.
had the ability, so we haven't tried it.
I never discount anything.
I think it just is geared, my initial thoughts are, is it geared
a little bit more towards your business office type professional,
But that doesn't mean that it won't translate to
Exactly, and so the thing that I'm really interested in is using this
device for learning specifically.
And yes, maybe in the context of a school setting.
Certainly I'm interested in that, having been a principal myself
and being interested in technology in the classroom as well, but.
The thing that I'm really excited to talk with you about is all the work
that you've done around learning with teachers, with students, and more.
So we'll get into that in just a moment.
I think one of the other things that I wanna talk about, we are
recording this before the Vision Pro is released to the public.
I'm getting my Vision Pro tomorrow, on Launch Day.
Pretty excited about that.
Excited to see what is possible with it.
But as it relates, to some of these new features, some of these new opportunities,
is there anything that you see with the Apple Vision Pro that wasn't
possible before with other, devices?
I.
I think we're seeing a real big leap in the ability to interact with,
whether it be mixed reality, or virtual reality, but being able to interact.
With the content in a more fluid and natural manner.
So not having to have controllers utilizing more of that hand and
eye tracking to update in real time, I think is a big jump.
and it's very much needed because, yes, we have six degree of freedom
controllers and that's great.
but it's always, it's still an extra.
Appendage basically that, can break presence because in the
physical world, if I wanna pick up my pen, I just pick up my pen.
I don't actually have to use a push, a trigger button to pick up my pen.
So I think that's exciting because it just adds more to the presence the
ability to stay engaged in the activity.
I think that's really valuable.
Also, the other thing that I'm thinking is gonna be really incredible for
people is that if you already have an.
Apple ID and you already have Apple devices, then you're gonna have a
bunch of tools and apps that, that you don't have to go out and find,
like you already have access to them.
And I think that part of it is really neat.
And now, of course, in the school setting, having it tied to your
own individual Apple ID is a big.
Complex, challenging thing that we've dealt with for a long time in education.
But I think that piece of having all that stuff already there and
not having to go out and find it, I think is gonna be really cool.
Do you have any thoughts on that aspect?
Yeah, I think it's just like with any type of, cell phone that we have or, tablet.
it's, you always have the argument with the green
Yeah.
user and the Android user versus the Apple user and it seems to be a very loyal.
Line between the two.
and so you've got the pro, all the pros and cons that come with that.
And I do having that ability to have things right there for you.
I always caution people in that, thing that comes with that is, if
you have an app and and you make an education or whatever, it's on there.
It doesn't necessarily mean it's educational.
however, for all of the.
Maximizing, daily work and things like that.
it's fantastic.
I'm also interested too, because there is a slight curve and a lot of people
in general don't quite understand that.
Like, when you have an iPhone, you're using iOS, you don't
have a MAC operating system.
they tend to think, it, it's not a MacBook, it's not the same thing.
the iOS system is different, Also interested to see how, if there's any
type of issues with those kind of things.
Especially because, you got your Chromebook users, you've got
your, basic laptop user, and then you got your MacBook users.
And that also seems to be a pretty definitive line with people.
People either love a MacBook or they don't.
Yeah, so let's shift a little bit.
You've been introducing virtual reality to people for years in
your classroom, in your PhD.
Can you talk about that learning curve of starting to experience something
new and what some of the typical challenges are that people face when
they're interacting in these kind of environments for the first time?
Teachers are an amazing group.
we're resilient, especially through COII feel like we've taken a lot of
hits that people don't quite understand what we go through on a daily basis.
And so we're asked to do a lot.
We're asked.
To be moms and dads and social workers and nurses and everything else on top of that.
And so then when I come through with a new piece of technology,
it's great, something else.
my 14 years in class experience have really helped me to design my programs
and my training so that I can make it as easy as possible on teachers.
that's what we need it to be and getting.
to understand that it is not a replacement.
It is not something that they're going to be using all day every day.
But it is another tool in their toolkit.
And I talk about it like the, in the beginning, understanding
how to use the headset.
That's like when we went from an overhead to a smart board, you're
gonna have a learning curve, but that's just the next progression.
But where the real training and the real support and
collaboration is so crucial is.
I have it.
I understand how to use it, but now how do I actually integrate it into instruction?
Because teachers are a great group, but I say we always want an app for that.
So they're like, is there an app for that?
Is there an app for that?
if I'm teaching money, like where's the Let's Teach Money app.
there isn't a Let's Teach Money app, but there's.
fishing game called bait where kids can catch fish and then earn coins.
So we have to change our way of thinking for what we have.
We always wanna continue to develop new content, of course, but there
doesn't have to be an app for
Shannon, I'm so glad that you said this because this is specifically why
I am saying that I'm not focused on.
on education as a system specifically, but rather as learning, because what I
want people to do is have a different mindset around this, that it's not what's
the program or the app that I can install into my classroom to meet these standards.
What I want us to be thinking about is what are the.
Things that I need to do or the in the opportunities or experiences
that I can create for my students so that they can learn the
things that I need them to learn.
That may be through a dedicated, specific program or app for that thing
that you're trying to teach, but as you just beautifully illustrated,
if it's about money, the fishing game where you have to go by bait is
actually a pretty good thing to teach.
And a valuable thing for people to, to use to teach that one specific domain.
and I just, I really appreciate that perspective because I
think that's really valuable.
And too often in education, we look for what's the program, the
research based program that's gonna lead to these outcomes.
And I think we need to open up our minds a little bit.
See what other things we can bring in to incorporate and get some
side benefits from something that is also enjoyable, fun, whatever.
Does that make sense?
What are your thoughts there?
Absolutely.
And we started to do it with project based learning.
I was like, when that came out, it was the big thing.
And I'm like.
This is what I do every day.
Yeah.
is just quality instruction.
Like project-based learning wasn't anything new.
It wasn't anything that you had to do different, it was just good lessons.
when I was teaching, text clues, I actually set up a scene and I
had my students do CSI and I had a little black light and everything.
So we did a real world CSI experience looking for text clues like that's sh.
That's just good lessons.
So anytime you can have fun in the classroom and create that
authentic engagement, that's where you see the most success.
And I think far too many times the nature of sit and get.
Is put on teachers because we have so many demands on us now with test scores.
And I don't get me wrong, I'm not making excuses.
I'm just saying with all these test scores, and coming in and
are your, I can statements up on your wall, blah, blah, blah.
Like these little things that I don't think are getting at the core of what's
important, but actually having students.
Have fun, enjoy what they're doing.
And then as teachers, that allows us to create and develop better
relationships with our students because we get to have fun with them.
Like when I did the fishing with my students, I had more
fun than even some of them did.
And so they still remember that lesson.
And, we're talking about students who, a Title one school,
98% free and reduced lunch.
And you know what?
They might, but they might never get the chance to go fishing.
so that in alone was already fun.
But then how all the creativity that came out of it what was shocking.
So when we did it and the students, were fishing like they had to,
I just made a quick, Excel sheet and they had to track every fish.
They caught the name, the weight, and the stars they earned, and
how much money they earned.
we took it from that, and then we talked about, okay, this fish was
10 pounds and you got 50 coins.
How heavy do you think it would need to be to get you a hundred coins?
So now we're talking about estimation.
Then through the lesson.
One of the students said, I went, I, I tried to fish in the deeper water.
And I said, why?
And she said, because that's where the bigger fish are.
And I said, why are the bigger fish in the deeper water?
She said, 'cause they can handle the cold and the other.
And then we talked about how, why is the water colder?
'cause it's deeper and the sun can't get to it.
So it was amazing of a teacher as I am, and I'm pretty awesome.
I would've never predicted where
that and then also too, like in the game, I don't know if bait
ever got them but in the game.
If you catch a can, you don't get anything.
And they were like, you're cleaning up the environment, you
should get something for that.
And I said, you're absolutely right.
And so then the classroom teacher had them do their writing piece as a
persuasive writing piece to the game company to make a change to the game,
to help clean up the environment.
So all of that stemmed off of one 30 minute VR lesson.
And that's what I try to tell people, you don't know the power
of it until you actually do it.
so why did all those things stem from that one VR lesson?
Is that just because you're an amazing teacher or because
the kids were more engaged?
what's your hypothesis on why you made so many other connections.
I joke
Yeah.
an awesome teacher 'cause I am, but no, it's because.
We got to spend that lesson learning, playing and having fun.
So I didn't have to spend time on behavior and behavior management.
And the teacher said to me, 'cause she, there was a pretty
tough class, and she goes, you didn't have any behavior problems.
And I said, I know.
And she goes, no.
Like the whole time.
And I said.
I know because the kids were having so much fun, they were enjoying it and
there were so many authentic social conversational exchanges that I, as
an adult, could not have scripted for them that it was just fun.
So it was like we almost forgot that we were learning.
And then like kids that like weren't allowed to stand next to each other in
line, they were talking to each other about what fish they caught, didn't
make 'em best friends or anything like that, but for that one hour.
They weren't fighting each other.
So that's the other missing piece that I think in education
we always get too far away from.
They're like, the kids need to be intrinsically motivated,
intrinsic motivation.
We're just not gonna give 'em a cookie.
I understand that.
However, having an external motivation doesn't necessarily mean we're giving
them a cookie, and VR allows them to have fun and learn at the same time.
and it takes them out of the learning environment and puts them
into a virtual environment that is different from what they are used to.
and I.
My opinion on this, and I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Also, my opinion on this is that by being in that different environment,
you are able to let your guard down a little bit and you, especially
with students who struggle in school with the academic stuff,
like the idea of estimating how much they'd get if they caught a hundred pound
fish or whatever your example, there was.
That example could be really challenging for a student in a typical
classroom to try to estimate that.
But in this situation, they're just playing a game.
They're just having fun and the risk of looking dumb.
Falls away a bit.
and so what are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, absolutely.
And the reason I always say that VR is so effective is because it takes those
higher order concepts and it makes it.
Possible.
It makes it real.
So we're always asking kids to imagine things, like estimation
is an, is a is imagined.
he didn't have to imagine because he could catch a bigger fish.
And the best part about the game was when you squeezed the
trigger, it actually pulled back like the fish was pulling back.
So you felt the weight of it pulling.
So if it was a heavier fish you had to hold on a little
bit longer and everything else.
So they could physically feel what it was like to catch a heavier fish.
And.
allows us to consume 3D content in a 3D medium, which is another
reason for its effectiveness.
so many times we ask kids to learn volume by showing 'em a picture of a
cube and being like, okay, now imagine there's three more blocks behind it.
that's incredibly challenging and there's are adults that still struggle with it.
I myself am horrible.
Spatial awareness.
And if you look at my car, you'll know because I hit a lot of stuff.
'cause I think I have room and I don't.
So then we get out the unifix cubes, and that works because it's
3D and they can actually see the makeup of the volume of the cube.
So VR allows 'em to do that.
But we don't have to have all these different, cubes
and everything else around.
But to physically feel how much heavier something is adds in
those higher order concepts.
so with, for example, the Apple Vision Pro, you're not gonna
have, handsets to feel that.
Kind of resistance.
So I'm curious what those kinds of experiences are gonna look like, but I
wanna shift just a little bit and talk about this idea of a teacher having an
idea and then being able to create it.
In a virtual reality environment, and how challenging is that?
What does that take?
How much effort and time and energy needs to go into that?
Because what you're describing with the fishing game, like that's just one
of many that I know that you've done.
but that's not.
that's a different game that somebody else created, but you've also created things.
And so I wanna talk a little bit about what the creation aspect is like and
how difficult and challenging that is for a teacher to create resources
or to just have to find resources.
Is it possible for a teacher to create their own resources?
Absolutely.
So there's every level of support.
you can have your standard, unreal unity, scripting, coding, all that kind of stuff.
However, I was not an am, not a programmer.
And I created my entire dissertation experience, which, was actually
where you've relive the life of Representative John Lewis.
And you start with him preaching to his chickens on his farm in
Troy, and it goes all the way up through the Edmund Pettus Bridge.
And I created all of that in, a software called In Engage.
And Engage has been a fantastic piece of education because it allows
us to create instantly and not have any programming or coding needed.
And so we're starting to see, more programs that allow that, this no code
type programming and things like that.
And, we're going to need to continue to have those.
And then what's exciting as well is ai, everybody, it's a big buzz term
and stuff like that, and people, either are afraid of it or they love it,
but understanding how we can actually integrate that into instruction.
So like with X reps, the football simulation.
where you actually play as the quarterback and you do cognitive based
drills and students are learning, all those concrete tasks that they need.
one of the updates in the future is gonna be your own coach.
So the teacher could get in there in the morning and say, Hey coach, we're
gonna be working on chemical bonds today.
I want their drills to be focused around chemical bonds.
And then the coach can create it right away and they don't have to do anything.
So that's the verge of what we're on, and that's where it's exciting for me
and exciting to use those kind of things.
The X reps thing, that sounds pretty cool.
that is specifically for a quarterback to learn how to get better at passing, right?
So what in the world are you doing using this, Shannon?
I'm originally from Syracuse, New York, so I'm a lifelong Bills fan.
it's been horrible and wonderful all at the same time.
so I've played sports my whole life, football being one of them.
And, I've always.
Loved it.
I've loved sports and everything, but in my classroom I never did
things the same as everybody else.
I always, I didn't like worksheets, so I created a drill, where I went
to the dollar store and I got pool noodles and I made 'em into a ring and
I slapped a piece of dry erase tape on there and I hung them from my ceiling.
And so then I would have my students, they'd have to run over.
Solve a math problem, run over to the line, pick up the football, and
then throw it through the ring with the correct answer instead of sitting
and looking at a worksheet and making an array and doing it that way.
And so I always had more success 'cause my students were engaged, they were
activating both sides of their brain, crossing, midline, doing all this stuff.
So I found X reps and they were a quarterback simulation system.
And I said, Hey.
kinda got these ideas and I said, why don't you make a smarter quarterback?
And so that's where we developed it from there.
And then basically taking what I did in the classroom and putting it in VR
and bringing it back to the classroom.
And one exciting thing about X Reps is we focus on a skill
called spatial awareness that I.
Mentioned a little bit earlier.
and it's a skill that everybody needs, but nobody teaches.
And we think we do, but we don't.
It's not a cognitive ability, it's the ability to understand my body and
space, how it takes up space, and how.
objects interact in space.
And I had mentioned my car.
if you look at my forearms too, they're always bruised because I always run
into the door, handle with my arm.
'cause I just am, I'm just not good.
that's incredibly important for any person in life.
a quarterback needs to be able to survey the field and then look and see
if there somebody's, if a receiver is open, and they have to know how big of
a space they have to fit that ball in.
But then they also need to know how hard they can throw it and how, with what
velocity and what angle, and to know, and I'll process this in a 10th of a second,
if they can fit that ball through that.
Some quarterbacks can, some quarterbacks think they can and some maybe don't.
but that's a spatial awareness skill that is not a cognitive ability, so in order to
train that, that's what these drills do.
And when that translates into education, that goes to
everything that goes into welding.
you have to have your torch at the right distance, otherwise your
weld is going to be ineffective.
All those kinds of things.
So it.
Translates to every aspect of life.
And that's why I tell teachers too, like there doesn't have to be an app for that.
yes, you teach carpentry, however, they're going to need spatial
awareness and math skills.
So we can do those things to also reach that same end goal.
Yeah.
That's really fascinating.
So one of the things that, you had talked about, and I don't remember how much you
said, on this call compared to the last call we had, but the idea of using this
tool to help you, have kids say this is.
Do some math work or whatever and be able to throw the ball through the correct,
hoop in the sky basically in, in the room.
Will you talk a little bit more about that, because I thought that was a really
fascinating way and a fascinating idea of how to combine these things like
we've been talking about the whole time.
Yeah, it's just fun.
I have adult, people, adults, male females that love to play
it, and they don't care that they.
Have to answer a simple math problem, because they get to be a quarterback.
And as we come out with more developments, to make it even more exciting and things
like that, it's gonna be even better.
but it goes back to that arm share quarterback, everybody
thinks they can do it.
And then, might as well.
Make it educational and have some fun with it.
But what's neat too is you actually have to clap your
hands together to snap the ball.
And then some quarterbacks don't know that the right answer isn't always there.
So at times during the drills, the right answer is not in one of the rings.
So you actually have to throw the ball away to the sideline.
'cause in football, sometimes throwing the ball away is the right answer.
So we try to make it as like real as possible so that people.
They, can just enjoy and have fun and again, step out of
themselves for a little bit.
And I've had, I have kids that, don't even like football and they'll play it.
and, and adults too.
because it, like I said, it allows us just to some fun and, and I
always, like I said, I always liked movement and things because it.
Any time we can activate more parts of our brain and more parts of our
body and get those engaged in our learning, we're going to see more
Yeah.
Al also, the last thing too is it allows.
people, anybody that does it, it allows you to get multiple repetitions
in a very short period of time.
So we know there's some kids that it takes them five exposures to learn the content.
Others, it takes 500.
in one three minute game of X reps, you can get 50 to 80 repetitions of
a subject, and that's invaluable.
I was, in, in doing some research for this, it was looking at another,
company and what they're doing and they.
They train employees and their onboarding, processes and they said
that the onboarding process for one company they worked with went from
eight hours down to 15 minutes and
Right.
crazy for them to learn and know how to do what they need to do at their job.
It only took 15 minutes of training with a VR headset on and they were able to.
to be proficient at their job.
last question.
what, what are you excited about for the future?
anything that, it can be anything you want.
No, no limits on time, space, money, anything.
what's something that you see that's exciting that you would say,
man, if I had all the money, time, expertise, whatever in the world,
this is what I do, what would that be?
Outside of the bills winning the Super Bowl.
I'm assuming you mean so, okay.
All right.
I honestly, I started saying five years ago when I.
started my PhD journey that within five to eight years we're gonna see VR headsets
in schools like we have Chromebooks now.
And I've been bang on with that and I'm trying to continue to ensure that happens.
So what I, if money and everything wasn't an option, then every student
would have the accessibility to be able to hop into a headset and.
However that looks, whether that's, mixed reality, whether that is,
full on immersive virtual reality, but have the ability to learn.
In the manner that suits them.
I've always said that I never changed the way my kids learn.
I changed the way I teach.
So if we could see teachers starting to embrace the fun and excitement
of education again, I think it, it's gotten so contentious lately.
and so the more fun that we can have and the more students that can.
Can learn to be successful and survive in this world.
Man, that, that's it right there.
that's the money shot because that's what we're trying to do.
And I love also that VR gives accessibility to students who are
typically, often overlooked, or the last ones included, my special education
students, using pass through with deaf students so they can enjoy the experience
and still see their interpreter.
Not just slapping closed captioning on there and thinking that's gonna work.
that is also what I think really gets me excited is the
accessibility and representation and access that can be provided
for people who otherwise have been
Yeah, for sure.
I think that's really amazing too.
on, on that piece, career View xr, which, Matt Choi was just on this
show and he connected me with you.
They are donating I.
A HCC Vive to every, public and private secondary school
in the state of North Dakota.
and that is a really exciting thing that, like that fulfills
your vision right there, that I.
we're starting out with just one, and that's okay.
everybody talks about, this is too expensive to have one for every student.
as you explained in this episode, so clearly it doesn't
have to be one per student.
You can take turns.
You can, when everybody has this shared experience, then it's a, a.
A unique new experience for everybody that was personalized to them and how their
success was or not within that system.
And I just think that is pretty cool.
So congrats to Matt on making that happen and having that
experience in North Dakota.
That's pretty cool.
That's amazing.
And another shout out to Matt in Career View.
So what I do love about, being my own boss now, is that I get to pick and
choose who I want to work with and who I think, has the same values like.
That I do and has that same guiding question of what's best for students.
And so career view of their own dime is actually working with me and the Kentucky
School for the Deaf, and we are going to film interpreters, on green screen, and
they're going to actually add interpreters into all of their experiences so that.
the deaf students don't have to take the headset off to be able to experience
everything in the same manner.
And then what's also exciting is we're gonna be making companion videos
with the students at KSD, and they're gonna, they're going to teach the.
and most important signs from the experience so that now our hearing
community can learn the signs with them and learn to communicate with them,
which is that crucial final component.
couldn't be more excited to be working with career view and the
fantastic work that they're doing and.
And the last thing is, I'll say, I promise to that point
of I loved Google Expeditions.
Don't get me wrong.
It was fantastic.
It got teachers to actually try to start to use vr.
however, it set up this narrative that I have to have all my
students on at the same time.
and you absolutely do not.
You can, and I've done it.
I've had 40 students on a headset in one room at the same
time, and did it successfully.
But it doesn't have to be that way.
There are so many funds.
Things you can do.
so I always say I would, if I can only get one VR headset, I'd get one all
day, every day and twice on Sunday.
I think it's fantastic the work that's being done by career view and
everybody that you know, is in this field and has been in this field
in the trenches, putting the work
Yeah.
where everybody else is finally starting to get it, which is beyond
Yeah, it's very cool.
so you've been doing this for a long time.
This is not new to you.
How do people get in touch with you and learn, how to work with you to bring
these experiences into their classrooms?
I.
Yeah, absolutely they can.
they, I, they can email me, which I.
When I was, I'll admit I'm a noob, when I was starting my business and
so my email's a little bit long, but, it's shannon@putmanxrconsulting.com
or I'm on LinkedIn and I'm currently, about to launch my website,
which will be very exciting.
so that will be coming soon and I can definitely follow
up with you when I have that
Yeah, I think people will be listening to this later when that is launched.
So putnam@putmanxrconsulting.com.
We'll put a link to that in the show notes, as well as your LinkedIn profile
so that people can reach out to you.
And I think, you've been doing this for a long time.
I, and the good thing about Apple entering the space is that it's
bringing awareness to something that you've already been doing.
So you're already an expert and can help people get moving in the right.
Direction with that.
So thanks again, Shannon, for being here.
Appreciate your time today.
No thank you.
I couldn't have had more fun.
I really appreciate it.