WEBVTT 00:00:03.270 --> 00:00:06.660 Matt Abrahams: Sometimes the biggest communication challenges can be 00:00:06.660 --> 00:00:09.150 addressed with the simplest of ideas. 00:00:09.810 --> 00:00:13.140 My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at 00:00:13.140 --> 00:00:15.000 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:15.300 --> 00:00:18.540 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:19.470 --> 00:00:22.410 Today I am excited to speak with my friend Greg Burke. 00:00:22.770 --> 00:00:26.370 Greg worked in a variety of media, newspapers, magazines, wire 00:00:26.370 --> 00:00:30.765 services, and television, including for Time Magazine and Fox News. 00:00:31.215 --> 00:00:33.735 He also worked in communications at the Vatican. 00:00:34.095 --> 00:00:37.035 He did strategic communication for Pope Benedict and was the 00:00:37.035 --> 00:00:39.135 spokesperson for Pope Francis. 00:00:39.495 --> 00:00:42.705 Greg is normally shuttling between Madrid and Barcelona, where he 00:00:42.705 --> 00:00:46.695 teaches public speaking in crisis communication at IESE Business school. 00:00:47.025 --> 00:00:49.364 He's currently a fellow in the Distinguished Careers 00:00:49.364 --> 00:00:50.625 Institute at Stanford. 00:00:51.375 --> 00:00:52.185 Welcome, Greg. 00:00:52.185 --> 00:00:54.615 You and I have had lots of fun conversations in the past, 00:00:54.615 --> 00:00:57.285 and I'm glad to have those conversations now on the podcast. 00:00:57.285 --> 00:00:57.945 Thanks for being here. 00:00:58.035 --> 00:00:58.815 Greg Burke: It's great to be here. 00:00:58.815 --> 00:01:00.285 I've been a big fan of the podcast. 00:01:00.705 --> 00:01:03.405 Matt Abrahams: You started your career as a reporter, and I'm curious to 00:01:03.405 --> 00:01:08.085 get your thoughts on how to ask good questions and how to help people feel 00:01:08.085 --> 00:01:10.664 at ease answering those questions. 00:01:10.965 --> 00:01:11.475 Greg Burke: Interesting. 00:01:11.475 --> 00:01:14.445 I'm not sure they teach you that when you study journalism, but I 00:01:14.445 --> 00:01:16.005 actually learned that from my father. 00:01:16.095 --> 00:01:21.420 My father, he wasn't a reporter, he was a pediatrician, but he was genuinely curious 00:01:21.420 --> 00:01:27.600 about people, places, and how things work, and never afraid to ask questions. 00:01:27.960 --> 00:01:32.640 So I think actually the key thing is that curiosity and real interest. 00:01:32.729 --> 00:01:37.229 If you ask an open-ended question to somebody about their job, about 00:01:37.229 --> 00:01:39.210 how that works, they'll open up. 00:01:39.479 --> 00:01:41.580 Let them speak, is another important thing. 00:01:41.580 --> 00:01:43.350 I think my father was very good at that. 00:01:43.350 --> 00:01:47.070 He was unassuming, he wasn't aggressive, and let them speak. 00:01:47.240 --> 00:01:50.780 Matt Abrahams: So I think this idea of, I do think curiosity and generosity. 00:01:50.780 --> 00:01:54.619 Generosity in terms of giving people the space to speak and a 00:01:54.619 --> 00:01:57.080 good reporter gives that space. 00:01:57.229 --> 00:02:00.560 Greg Burke: It is amazing what people will tell you when you give 'em the chance. 00:02:00.890 --> 00:02:01.250 Matt Abrahams: That's right. 00:02:01.250 --> 00:02:04.699 And if you are gracious enough to give them the time to do it and then ask more 00:02:04.699 --> 00:02:06.380 questions, I think makes a lot of sense. 00:02:06.770 --> 00:02:11.120 You started in the written word as a journalist who would write articles. 00:02:11.120 --> 00:02:15.905 I'm curious, what best practices did you end up taking away from 00:02:15.905 --> 00:02:19.175 that, that you could share about how to write clearly and concisely? 00:02:19.175 --> 00:02:20.345 A lot of us struggle with that. 00:02:20.585 --> 00:02:22.145 Greg Burke: Yeah, really interesting. 00:02:22.145 --> 00:02:25.085 And I feel very lucky about my first couple of jobs. 00:02:25.475 --> 00:02:30.365 My first job was a police reporter outside of New York City, small paper, 00:02:30.455 --> 00:02:34.175 but it's better to make your mistakes at a small paper, Port Chester, New York. 00:02:34.715 --> 00:02:38.165 And I think the thing I learned there was get your facts straight. 00:02:38.285 --> 00:02:42.380 It may sound really simple, but not always. 00:02:42.500 --> 00:02:45.530 They, there are different spellings to names which sound the same. 00:02:45.590 --> 00:02:48.080 And when you're a police reporter, you wanna get the name right, 00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:51.110 you know, you're talking about somebody getting a DUI or worse. 00:02:51.110 --> 00:02:54.170 And much more importantly, my second job was at a wire service, 00:02:54.170 --> 00:02:55.580 United Press International. 00:02:55.850 --> 00:02:58.220 And it was loads of deadlines. 00:02:58.460 --> 00:03:02.030 And so just throwing stuff at you, write it, get it out. 00:03:02.570 --> 00:03:06.980 And I think the lesson there for everybody is, I don't wanna say there is no such 00:03:06.980 --> 00:03:10.780 thing as writer's block, but you don't have the luxury of a writer's block. 00:03:11.170 --> 00:03:14.710 And don't let you're looking for perfection ruin your 00:03:14.710 --> 00:03:16.000 chance to do good writing. 00:03:16.270 --> 00:03:19.870 Get something down on paper, set a deadline for yourself, get it 00:03:19.870 --> 00:03:21.310 down, and then you'll fix it up. 00:03:21.430 --> 00:03:23.050 I think that's extremely important. 00:03:23.050 --> 00:03:27.640 Then you can keep getting it more concise, getting it clearer, but get it down, get 00:03:27.640 --> 00:03:29.590 started, and that's a really big help. 00:03:29.980 --> 00:03:33.010 Matt Abrahams: I have to admit, I am a very nervous writer. 00:03:33.010 --> 00:03:34.960 I would much rather speak than write. 00:03:35.020 --> 00:03:38.440 It is really painful for me to write, and I think part of it is what you 00:03:38.440 --> 00:03:40.090 talked about, that notion of perfection. 00:03:40.090 --> 00:03:41.470 I want it to be right. 00:03:41.470 --> 00:03:46.090 It feels to me more permanent than when I speak something, even though I'm speaking 00:03:46.090 --> 00:03:47.950 to video, that lasts a long time too. 00:03:48.310 --> 00:03:50.590 So detail, be detail oriented. 00:03:50.590 --> 00:03:51.970 Make sure you get the facts right. 00:03:52.195 --> 00:03:54.505 Make sure that you just get started. 00:03:54.505 --> 00:03:57.595 And what I heard you say at the end of that answer was this 00:03:57.595 --> 00:03:59.365 notion of you can fix it later. 00:03:59.365 --> 00:04:02.545 So I assume editing and review is an important part of the process. 00:04:02.785 --> 00:04:05.365 Greg Burke: There's a load of that, and I think this is true for writing 00:04:05.365 --> 00:04:07.555 and, and also for oral presentations. 00:04:07.675 --> 00:04:10.855 You know, you can video yourself if you have a presentation, then 00:04:10.855 --> 00:04:13.945 look at it and say, okay, I'm gonna change this and this and this. 00:04:14.155 --> 00:04:15.535 Editing, I think, is key. 00:04:15.780 --> 00:04:18.300 Matt Abrahams: I'd like to dig a little deeper because both of those bits of 00:04:18.300 --> 00:04:21.690 advice that you talked about, artificial intelligence, AI can help us with. 00:04:21.690 --> 00:04:25.770 I'm curious what your thoughts are on AI and its impact on written communication. 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:29.190 Greg Burke: My thoughts from AI have gotten mostly from one of our colleagues 00:04:29.190 --> 00:04:30.880 here at Stanford, Rachel Konrad. 00:04:31.020 --> 00:04:35.340 I, I think she has a very good read on AI, which is, AI is like 00:04:35.340 --> 00:04:37.860 having a whole load of interns. 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:42.680 They can deliver good things, which you have to put together. 00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:44.720 The voice has to be yours. 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:46.700 The point of view has to be yours. 00:04:46.790 --> 00:04:48.950 I think that's a perfect description of AI. 00:04:49.250 --> 00:04:52.010 Yes, many good things they're putting on the table. 00:04:52.250 --> 00:04:53.810 You still have to set the table. 00:04:53.810 --> 00:04:54.890 You have to put it together. 00:04:55.160 --> 00:04:55.370 Matt Abrahams: Right. 00:04:55.430 --> 00:04:58.880 Your own personal voice has to come out and the connection you can have. 00:04:59.150 --> 00:05:02.330 Like me, you have the good fortune of teaching at a world 00:05:02.330 --> 00:05:03.860 renowned business school, IESE. 00:05:04.095 --> 00:05:08.505 And I'd love to know a bit about the lessons that you teach your students. 00:05:08.505 --> 00:05:11.535 Can you share with us two big lessons that you try to instill regarding 00:05:11.535 --> 00:05:13.335 communication to your students? 00:05:13.395 --> 00:05:13.665 Greg Burke: Yeah. 00:05:13.695 --> 00:05:16.275 One of my three is grab them at the start. 00:05:16.515 --> 00:05:19.235 And that's true if you're writing or if you're speaking. 00:05:19.665 --> 00:05:25.215 If you're speaking in front of a crowd and you say, can everyone hear me all right? 00:05:25.485 --> 00:05:29.475 Or if you say, oh, I'm nervous, 'cause I don't normally speak in front of 00:05:29.475 --> 00:05:33.555 this many people, people are gonna be searching for their phone, they're 00:05:33.555 --> 00:05:36.105 gonna be looking at, what's the weather gonna be like this weekend? 00:05:36.105 --> 00:05:36.840 I'm supposed to play golf. 00:05:37.604 --> 00:05:42.344 Whereas if you say, think about your most embarrassing moment in your life, people 00:05:42.344 --> 00:05:46.395 are probably gonna start thinking that, and you can up the ante say, okay, do you 00:05:46.395 --> 00:05:49.875 think you could win if we had a contest here in this room now, and whatever. 00:05:49.965 --> 00:05:51.375 But grab them at the start. 00:05:52.364 --> 00:05:57.125 Then what I would say with your main points is punch and pause. 00:05:57.355 --> 00:05:59.545 Make your point, and let it sink in. 00:05:59.545 --> 00:06:03.045 I think of people, especially when they're beginning, they don't use the 00:06:03.045 --> 00:06:05.055 silence enough in public speaking. 00:06:05.055 --> 00:06:08.505 And then the third point is really not about the content but the process. 00:06:08.715 --> 00:06:09.645 Get feedback. 00:06:09.975 --> 00:06:13.545 Get feedback from your colleagues, get feedback from the kind of people who 00:06:13.545 --> 00:06:17.295 would be in the audience or who would know what the audience is gonna be like. 00:06:17.385 --> 00:06:18.945 And I think that's so helpful. 00:06:18.945 --> 00:06:20.475 And we see that at IESE all the time. 00:06:20.475 --> 00:06:21.975 We have the big lecture classes. 00:06:22.310 --> 00:06:26.300 We do a bootcamp, uh, public speaking bootcamp at the beginning of the MBA 00:06:26.420 --> 00:06:30.170 and the lecture classes are seventy students, but then we do smaller 00:06:30.170 --> 00:06:32.320 groups of eight or nine or ten. 00:06:32.990 --> 00:06:37.810 And in those, I find it fascinating every time things that the students 00:06:37.830 --> 00:06:40.289 pick up on that I don't necessarily get. 00:06:40.530 --> 00:06:43.830 And that's like you really learn from that kind of feedback. 00:06:44.190 --> 00:06:46.530 Matt Abrahams: Feedback is so critical in all communication. 00:06:46.530 --> 00:06:51.090 Most of us are so busy doing what we do, and we have all these other demands 00:06:51.090 --> 00:06:54.270 that we just get it out and we don't take the time to get that feedback. 00:06:54.270 --> 00:06:57.270 And as you just implied, we are not the best judges of 00:06:57.270 --> 00:06:59.070 how our information will land. 00:06:59.099 --> 00:07:00.750 Greg Burke: Yeah, there are a lot of examples of that. 00:07:00.750 --> 00:07:03.799 I think most of us think about it when it's quite important. 00:07:03.969 --> 00:07:07.435 But I think there are a number of important things you have to look at. 00:07:07.555 --> 00:07:11.844 It might just be an email, but a sensitive email at work because you 00:07:11.844 --> 00:07:15.505 are angry, something happened, you feel like you suffered some sort 00:07:15.505 --> 00:07:16.825 of injustice one thing or another. 00:07:16.825 --> 00:07:20.484 Well, be careful about sending that off in the first five minutes. 00:07:20.635 --> 00:07:23.245 I think the twenty-four hour rule is good on that one. 00:07:23.635 --> 00:07:28.284 And even a better rule is somebody wise and with experience look at 00:07:28.284 --> 00:07:29.784 that and say, is that the right tone? 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:31.260 Is that what I wanna say? 00:07:31.260 --> 00:07:33.240 And sometimes you have to write really tough things. 00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:35.250 That's part of nature and that's part of life. 00:07:35.880 --> 00:07:37.350 But I think your point is well taken. 00:07:37.590 --> 00:07:40.440 Too often we, oh, gotta get it out, gotta get it out. 00:07:40.440 --> 00:07:42.030 And we don't ask that feedback. 00:07:42.030 --> 00:07:43.560 Doesn't take a whole lot of effort. 00:07:44.100 --> 00:07:47.790 Matt Abrahams: My colleagues and my wife are my editors in chief, and they help 00:07:47.969 --> 00:07:51.025 give me perspective on the things that I speak and the things that I write. 00:07:51.325 --> 00:07:55.255 I really like that idea of parachute in, get engagement at the start. 00:07:55.375 --> 00:07:58.315 I believe attention is our most precious commodity, and if I 00:07:58.315 --> 00:08:00.895 can't get your attention, I can't engage you and enlist you. 00:08:00.895 --> 00:08:04.974 So finding a way to start, asking a provocative question, telling a 00:08:04.974 --> 00:08:08.190 compelling story, giving a startling statistic, those are all ways. 00:08:08.424 --> 00:08:09.845 I really appreciate that advice. 00:08:10.135 --> 00:08:14.085 And I'm gonna take from you, maybe even steal from you, the notion of 00:08:14.085 --> 00:08:17.505 punch and pause, because a lot of people feel like I just gotta give 00:08:17.505 --> 00:08:19.095 all the points out all at once. 00:08:19.095 --> 00:08:21.915 And you have to give that moment to let people sink in and process. 00:08:21.915 --> 00:08:23.655 And I like that idea of punch and pause. 00:08:24.015 --> 00:08:27.345 You've got lots of valuable advice to share with everybody, but I 00:08:27.345 --> 00:08:30.865 really want to talk about one particular experience you had. 00:08:30.865 --> 00:08:34.645 So you served in the Vatican where you led strategic communication 00:08:34.645 --> 00:08:37.885 for Pope Benedict and you were the spokesperson for Pope Francis. 00:08:38.185 --> 00:08:40.345 Not typical jobs most people have. 00:08:40.525 --> 00:08:43.495 Before I ask you about some specifics, can you give us insight into what your 00:08:43.495 --> 00:08:47.125 job was and any guiding principles that you followed to make sure your 00:08:47.125 --> 00:08:48.895 messages were clear and consistent? 00:08:49.135 --> 00:08:51.745 Greg Burke: I would say clear, consistent, and timely. 00:08:51.835 --> 00:08:56.335 When I was brought into the Vatican, that was 2012, it was a time when 00:08:56.335 --> 00:08:57.535 there were leaks of documents. 00:08:57.535 --> 00:09:01.214 It was a sensitive period, and I think where the Vatican was 00:09:01.214 --> 00:09:02.954 often caught on the back foot. 00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:08.400 I think I was brought in to try to help it become a clear and a consistent message. 00:09:08.640 --> 00:09:12.990 And a timely message, which is often not the Vatican's strong point because 00:09:12.990 --> 00:09:16.770 the institution's been around for two thousand years and doesn't think 00:09:16.770 --> 00:09:18.960 the same way a startup here thinks. 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:22.320 Like we have to be in this and do this now and react to this immediately, 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:26.175 or the way a political party or a government necessarily thinks. 00:09:26.175 --> 00:09:30.165 It's got the ultimate long view of history, right? 00:09:30.585 --> 00:09:35.205 Now, having said that, I do remember somebody just when I arrived and he 00:09:35.205 --> 00:09:39.225 pointed out something interesting to me, about the difficulty in an institution 00:09:39.225 --> 00:09:43.515 as, as broad as it is, of always being on message, believe as Pope Benedict 00:09:43.755 --> 00:09:46.034 was making a trip to the United States. 00:09:46.950 --> 00:09:50.880 He said, I remember he told me, there were three or four different sort of top 00:09:50.880 --> 00:09:54.960 level Vatican people who were interviewed about the trip and talked about it, 00:09:55.290 --> 00:09:59.070 and they all said good things, but they all said different things, which was 00:09:59.070 --> 00:10:05.790 interesting because I thought, wow, how different from a political machine where, 00:10:06.060 --> 00:10:08.190 here's the message, we stick to it. 00:10:08.520 --> 00:10:12.540 Having said that, one of my main points was just, let's stay out of the weeds. 00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:15.060 Let's keep it as simple as possible. 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:18.840 Twitter and actually Instagram were good ways to do that. 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:22.020 And we've talked about how they were easy means to deliver 00:10:22.350 --> 00:10:25.110 a simple message directly. 00:10:25.110 --> 00:10:28.110 I always said, you Pope Francis had a pretty simple message. 00:10:28.140 --> 00:10:28.920 God loves you. 00:10:28.950 --> 00:10:31.945 God forgives you, share the love, you know, and I, let's 00:10:32.070 --> 00:10:33.330 work on variations of that. 00:10:33.750 --> 00:10:36.510 Matt Abrahams: This idea of simplicity, I think is really important. 00:10:36.510 --> 00:10:40.590 A lot of us add a lot of complexity to what we say, in some cases, 00:10:40.590 --> 00:10:41.910 just to show we're really smart. 00:10:41.910 --> 00:10:45.150 In other cases, because the issues we're talking about have lots of 00:10:45.150 --> 00:10:49.650 nuance and detail, but getting one crisp, clear, simple idea, at 00:10:49.650 --> 00:10:51.240 first, I think is really important. 00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:53.940 It sounds like that's a lot of what you help do is bring that 00:10:53.940 --> 00:10:55.440 simplicity and consistency. 00:10:56.015 --> 00:10:58.954 Greg Burke: Smart people normally like showing how smart they are, right? 00:10:59.015 --> 00:11:02.584 We'd have old fashioned press conferences and people would read really long 00:11:02.584 --> 00:11:06.185 statements, and I'm like, that's not the way we're transmitting things today, and 00:11:06.185 --> 00:11:07.775 we're always trying to cut that down. 00:11:08.015 --> 00:11:10.625 Matt Abrahams: In your many roles that you've had, certainly 00:11:10.625 --> 00:11:13.324 at the Vatican, you've had to deal with challenges in crises. 00:11:13.324 --> 00:11:15.095 You've talked about the leak that happened. 00:11:15.395 --> 00:11:19.755 Can you share a story or two about crises that you've had to manage and 00:11:19.785 --> 00:11:23.925 help us understand perhaps some best practices we can employ when we find 00:11:23.925 --> 00:11:26.655 ourselves in challenging situations? 00:11:26.865 --> 00:11:27.135 Greg Burke: Yeah. 00:11:27.375 --> 00:11:32.025 I think this started long before I got there, but the biggest crisis has really 00:11:32.025 --> 00:11:35.535 been one of the biggest crisis in the Catholic Church for hundreds of years, was 00:11:35.535 --> 00:11:38.500 a sex abuse crisis, which blew up in 2002. 00:11:38.969 --> 00:11:43.829 I think one of the key things is being willing to admit you've made mistakes. 00:11:43.979 --> 00:11:48.930 And people don't like doing that, in companies and churches, in organizations, 00:11:48.930 --> 00:11:50.699 in nonprofits, in, in whatever. 00:11:51.089 --> 00:11:54.510 And I was always impressed, Pope Benedict wrote a letter to the people 00:11:54.510 --> 00:11:57.930 of Ireland and was really hit hard by the crisis, by the change in the 00:11:57.930 --> 00:12:03.329 times, and he basically said, I totally understand if you never wanna cross 00:12:03.329 --> 00:12:05.069 through the doors of a church again. 00:12:05.505 --> 00:12:09.435 And I thought that was incredibly noble of him and the right thing to do. 00:12:09.495 --> 00:12:13.035 And, and that, that is a lesson because that's not easy. 00:12:13.095 --> 00:12:16.485 I think that's not easy and people look for ways to go around it. 00:12:16.485 --> 00:12:20.835 He was also asked, Pope Benedict was asked a question one time in, uh, the interview, 00:12:20.925 --> 00:12:24.915 don't you think people take advantage of the crisis to attack the church? 00:12:25.935 --> 00:12:28.275 And his answers were always very measured, reasonable. 00:12:28.275 --> 00:12:33.450 And he said, perhaps, but to the extent that the charges are true in any of these 00:12:33.450 --> 00:12:35.340 cases, it's good they come to light. 00:12:35.580 --> 00:12:39.510 And that was just an amazing admission of we're not afraid of the truth, and I think 00:12:39.510 --> 00:12:41.680 that's incredibly important and a lesson. 00:12:41.700 --> 00:12:43.110 So those were some challenges. 00:12:43.290 --> 00:12:45.480 On a positive side, I'll tell you an interesting one. 00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:48.420 Pope Francis wrote a document called Laudato Si’ on the 00:12:48.420 --> 00:12:51.120 Environment, believe it was 2015. 00:12:51.510 --> 00:12:54.600 It's called an Encyclical, which is a Vatican name for a long document. 00:12:54.930 --> 00:12:59.520 It was interesting, it will come as no surprise to anybody that most people 00:12:59.520 --> 00:13:04.199 don't read a hundred page document coming out from their church, and certainly 00:13:04.199 --> 00:13:08.280 not most of the faithful and maybe even others in leadership positions. 00:13:08.280 --> 00:13:13.050 And so it's very interesting, the one thing we did, I got the help with some wiz 00:13:13.050 --> 00:13:16.439 kid who could really put things together, and I think I gave him five days. 00:13:17.150 --> 00:13:21.740 And I said, I'm gonna come up with ten points from a hundred page document. 00:13:22.125 --> 00:13:26.295 I need you to put it into a five minute video and we're gonna do these points 00:13:26.295 --> 00:13:30.735 in Italian, in English, and in Spanish, so at least cover half the world. 00:13:30.915 --> 00:13:35.865 And in the end, I think we only had space for seven of the points, but, 00:13:36.015 --> 00:13:40.410 and the video lasted six minutes, not five, but I think it was a great new 00:13:40.410 --> 00:13:43.470 way to get out an important message. 00:13:44.040 --> 00:13:48.120 It wasn't easy, but how do you take a hundred page document and get your 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:51.510 six or eight key points outta there? 00:13:51.510 --> 00:13:55.380 And I think we come back to the editing thing, separating wheat from chaff. 00:13:55.410 --> 00:13:57.870 And when you're writing, sometimes we're attracted to 00:13:57.870 --> 00:13:59.520 this just because we wrote it. 00:13:59.550 --> 00:14:01.350 And it's interesting what you can learn there. 00:14:01.350 --> 00:14:03.660 I think it's Stephen King who says, kill your darlings. 00:14:03.660 --> 00:14:03.870 You know? 00:14:03.990 --> 00:14:06.450 I mean, when you're too attached to something, watch out. 00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:10.500 Show it to somebody, get some feedback, but that's a great process to learn. 00:14:10.845 --> 00:14:12.735 Matt Abrahams: I appreciate that when I asked you about crises, 00:14:12.735 --> 00:14:15.135 you gave a positive and one that was certainly negative. 00:14:15.165 --> 00:14:20.145 And the take home message I think that I heard was one, acknowledge it, take 00:14:20.145 --> 00:14:24.314 responsibility, allow for the discussion and discourse that happens as a result. 00:14:24.855 --> 00:14:29.835 And then from the positive example you gave around the environment, it's really 00:14:29.835 --> 00:14:34.390 finding ways to highlight the significant important points and then find the channel 00:14:34.390 --> 00:14:35.830 that's appropriate for delivering it. 00:14:36.250 --> 00:14:38.560 So Greg, before we end, I like to ask three questions. 00:14:38.560 --> 00:14:41.380 One I create just for you and the other two I ask everybody. 00:14:41.380 --> 00:14:42.160 Are you ready for this? 00:14:42.340 --> 00:14:43.390 Greg Burke: My moments arrived. 00:14:43.810 --> 00:14:46.810 Matt Abrahams: So, because I know you, I know that one of your passions is playing 00:14:46.810 --> 00:14:52.090 golf, and how has having an outlet like golf been helpful to your communication? 00:14:52.090 --> 00:14:56.060 And how has your experience handling challenging situations helped you in golf? 00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:59.410 I can imagine a calmness, a focus is helpful. 00:14:59.670 --> 00:15:02.280 Greg Burke: I'll tell you one thing, golf allows you time 00:15:02.280 --> 00:15:04.020 away from your phone, right? 00:15:04.020 --> 00:15:08.310 As as someone told me, I'm aging myself and I had a friend in television and he 00:15:08.310 --> 00:15:09.960 said, oh, you gotta start playing golf. 00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:12.720 You only have to look at your Blackberry every three or four holes. 00:15:13.470 --> 00:15:16.530 So I should be a better golfer 'cause that is more or less when I started. 00:15:16.530 --> 00:15:19.920 But I think actually, I think this is incredibly important 00:15:19.920 --> 00:15:21.450 for connecting with people. 00:15:21.480 --> 00:15:24.990 You can play golf by yourself, but connecting with people, the less 00:15:24.990 --> 00:15:28.830 you have your earbuds in and the less you're looking at your phone, 00:15:29.060 --> 00:15:33.500 the more you're establishing human contact, and that's fantastic. 00:15:33.680 --> 00:15:36.620 And then I think the other funny thing about golf and all this 00:15:36.620 --> 00:15:39.770 is just you have to have a sense of humor because golf is tough. 00:15:39.800 --> 00:15:42.170 I mean, it can be incredibly frustrating. 00:15:43.094 --> 00:15:47.655 I think it's key that you maintain that sort of approach to it 00:15:47.655 --> 00:15:49.305 where, hey, I have to have fun. 00:15:49.694 --> 00:15:53.084 In terms of public speaking when people are nervous have this incredible fear 00:15:53.084 --> 00:15:57.074 of public speaking, I always tell them, listen, it's not like golf. 00:15:57.074 --> 00:15:58.574 You can actually get better at it. 00:15:58.604 --> 00:15:59.385 And that's true. 00:15:59.385 --> 00:16:00.104 We've all seen it. 00:16:00.194 --> 00:16:00.525 Matt Abrahams: Right. 00:16:00.584 --> 00:16:02.175 That's an important point for all of us. 00:16:02.175 --> 00:16:04.425 It doesn't have to be golf, but some physical activity. 00:16:04.425 --> 00:16:05.444 I know you like to hike. 00:16:05.685 --> 00:16:07.025 I like to do martial arts. 00:16:07.025 --> 00:16:08.655 It could be playing a musical instrument. 00:16:09.045 --> 00:16:14.045 In all of those cases you're learning and developing a skill through practice. 00:16:14.135 --> 00:16:17.555 I mean, when I take a golf swing, I have immediate feedback of what I did right 00:16:17.555 --> 00:16:20.675 or wrong, 'cause I, I'm always looking where it went, it doesn't go straight. 00:16:21.005 --> 00:16:24.605 But the idea is that we have these opportunities in our lives where 00:16:24.605 --> 00:16:27.665 we work hard to learn something and we can apply those same skills 00:16:27.665 --> 00:16:29.525 and practices to our communication. 00:16:29.645 --> 00:16:33.574 And point well taken that it gives you a way to connect to people and 00:16:33.574 --> 00:16:36.875 it gets you off your devices so you can connect in a real personal way. 00:16:37.365 --> 00:16:39.945 Question number two, and you have been around a lot of interesting 00:16:39.945 --> 00:16:43.064 communicators, who is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:16:43.485 --> 00:16:47.415 Greg Burke: My guy will surprise you, he's, but, but he'll be a sign of hope 00:16:47.415 --> 00:16:51.495 for a lot of people because he dropped outta college because he was too timid, 00:16:51.495 --> 00:16:55.064 he was afraid to speak too much in public, and he's the head of a charity. 00:16:55.064 --> 00:16:58.814 I help out with a charity called Mary's Meals, Magnus McFarland. 00:16:59.220 --> 00:17:04.140 Great big Scottish guy who, salmon farmer, twenty years ago said, the best thing I 00:17:04.140 --> 00:17:08.610 can do with my life is feed really poor kids and really poor countries, giving 00:17:08.610 --> 00:17:11.160 them one good meal a day at school. 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:17.160 And he's now doing that, feeding more than two and a half million every day. 00:17:17.700 --> 00:17:20.550 And he has to give speeches all the time, which is pretty interesting. 00:17:20.700 --> 00:17:25.530 And I think he's the embodiment of something I learned long ago, 00:17:25.530 --> 00:17:28.170 which if you care, they'll care. 00:17:28.620 --> 00:17:32.610 And you hear him speak and he is so passionate about it, that you care too. 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:36.870 I think in terms of being a, a, an effective speaker, 00:17:36.870 --> 00:17:37.950 he is incredibly effective. 00:17:38.310 --> 00:17:39.420 Matt Abrahams: If you care, they care. 00:17:39.420 --> 00:17:42.330 The contagion of your emotion and passion is so true. 00:17:42.660 --> 00:17:43.680 Final question, Greg. 00:17:43.980 --> 00:17:48.240 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:51.300 Greg Burke: Okay, my first two aren't gonna be a surprise. 00:17:51.300 --> 00:17:53.820 My third might be a surprise for you, might not. 00:17:54.370 --> 00:17:57.660 Know your audience, and know your audience well enough to 00:17:57.660 --> 00:17:59.370 make them smile, is what I say. 00:17:59.580 --> 00:18:00.629 Second is practice. 00:18:00.900 --> 00:18:05.490 Now by practice I also mean, if it's an oral presentation, do a video of yourself. 00:18:05.490 --> 00:18:06.180 Look at it. 00:18:06.180 --> 00:18:07.290 Have someone else look at it. 00:18:07.379 --> 00:18:10.290 If it's written, edit it, cut it down. 00:18:10.770 --> 00:18:12.450 Never go over the time. 00:18:12.840 --> 00:18:14.160 Never go over the time. 00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:15.330 How many times have we done that? 00:18:15.330 --> 00:18:16.080 So edit there. 00:18:16.410 --> 00:18:19.650 And we talked before about it, part of that practice is feedback. 00:18:19.890 --> 00:18:23.760 You wanna show it to one or two people or three, they, depending on the importance 00:18:23.760 --> 00:18:27.300 of the thing, but I think anything of moderate importance, you wanna bounce it 00:18:27.300 --> 00:18:28.710 off one of your friends or colleagues. 00:18:29.520 --> 00:18:32.400 And the third, which may or may not surprise you, have fun. 00:18:32.730 --> 00:18:36.030 Again, if it's a eulogy at a funeral, you might not wanna have 00:18:36.030 --> 00:18:39.900 fun, although sometimes those remember really nice moments as well. 00:18:39.900 --> 00:18:45.330 But I think overall, I have fun for anybody who is afraid to get up in front 00:18:45.330 --> 00:18:47.040 of a group, and there are a lot of people. 00:18:47.730 --> 00:18:50.879 Just remember this, you've already learned how to ride the bicycle. 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:56.220 Now it's just how fast you wanna go, how far you wanna go, and 00:18:56.220 --> 00:18:57.750 that's incredibly important. 00:18:57.990 --> 00:18:59.490 Again, people are rooting for you. 00:18:59.490 --> 00:19:00.420 They're not against you. 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:03.240 Almost all the cases, when we're getting up in front of a 00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:04.830 crowd, they want us to do well. 00:19:04.950 --> 00:19:06.150 They want us to succeed. 00:19:06.360 --> 00:19:07.200 So have fun. 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:07.980 Make 'em smile. 00:19:07.980 --> 00:19:09.030 If you can make 'em laugh. 00:19:09.535 --> 00:19:12.535 Matt Abrahams: Bringing levity to communication can make 00:19:12.535 --> 00:19:13.765 a, a tremendous difference. 00:19:14.185 --> 00:19:15.085 Know your audience. 00:19:15.085 --> 00:19:16.525 Something we've talked a lot about. 00:19:17.065 --> 00:19:20.455 Practice, especially practice, and getting feedback on it. 00:19:21.025 --> 00:19:24.685 And then having fun, being present, bringing levity, really important. 00:19:25.175 --> 00:19:26.385 You helped us have some fun. 00:19:26.445 --> 00:19:29.205 You certainly brought a smile to my face and you gave us some good 00:19:29.205 --> 00:19:33.075 clean takeaways that we can all leverage to be clear, concise, 00:19:33.255 --> 00:19:34.815 and engaging in our communication. 00:19:35.025 --> 00:19:35.325 Thank you. 00:19:35.325 --> 00:19:36.075 This was wonderful. 00:19:36.075 --> 00:19:36.645 Greg Burke: Thanks a lot. 00:19:38.955 --> 00:19:41.055 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:19:41.055 --> 00:19:43.455 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:19:43.845 --> 00:19:46.725 To learn more about crisis communication, please listen to 00:19:46.725 --> 00:19:49.305 episode 22 with David David Demarest. 00:19:49.800 --> 00:19:54.030 This episode was produced by Ryan Campos and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:56.070 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:19:56.190 --> 00:19:58.530 With thanks to the Podium Podcast Company. 00:19:59.010 --> 00:20:02.490 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:20:02.790 --> 00:20:04.950 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:20:05.280 --> 00:20:10.560 Also follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram and 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