WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:02.370 --> 00:00:04.660 Mike: Welcome once again to APIs you won't hate. 00:00:04.800 --> 00:00:06.180 My name is Mike Balco. 00:00:06.300 --> 00:00:09.260 I am co-founder of APIs You Won't Hate and host of the podcast. 00:00:09.709 --> 00:00:13.099 I'm here today talking to, my new friend, Constantine Schreiber 00:00:13.099 --> 00:00:14.639 from Fast Gen Constantine. 00:00:14.639 --> 00:00:15.680 Thanks so much for hanging out with me today. 00:00:15.680 --> 00:00:16.079 How are you doing? 00:00:16.980 --> 00:00:18.000 Constantin: Thanks for the invitation. 00:00:18.290 --> 00:00:19.400 Doing very well. 00:00:19.400 --> 00:00:19.840 How are you? 00:00:20.520 --> 00:00:21.209 Mike: Yeah, I'm good. 00:00:21.209 --> 00:00:21.490 Thanks. 00:00:21.569 --> 00:00:22.209 I appreciate it. 00:00:22.209 --> 00:00:25.239 We've, we've had a long wait to get to actually talk to each other, and I'm 00:00:25.239 --> 00:00:27.559 really interested in what, what you're building and what Fast Gen is doing. 00:00:27.809 --> 00:00:28.569 But why don't we start here? 00:00:28.569 --> 00:00:31.609 Why don't you sort of introduce yourself and tell me a little bit about your 00:00:31.949 --> 00:00:35.120 I don't know, your, your history what you've done before fast Gen and 00:00:35.120 --> 00:00:36.080 how you got to where you're at now. 00:00:37.220 --> 00:00:37.510 Constantin: Sure. 00:00:38.410 --> 00:00:43.230 So I guess my passion for creating things started when I was quite young. 00:00:44.030 --> 00:00:48.080 as a child, my, my first like green job was to become an inventor. 00:00:48.860 --> 00:00:50.520 Not necessarily in the digital space. 00:00:50.600 --> 00:00:54.650 I thought of it more as a, like crafting things and building like robots and stuff, 00:00:55.430 --> 00:00:59.735 but I think it's this like curiosity that led me to explore coding at a 00:00:59.735 --> 00:01:01.215 quite young age and web development. 00:01:01.235 --> 00:01:06.275 So I taught myself how to do pretty basic web dev stuff, with back in the day, like 00:01:06.275 --> 00:01:08.195 visual basic and all that kind of stuff. 00:01:09.105 --> 00:01:09.325 And. 00:01:09.595 --> 00:01:09.885 Mike: Yeah. 00:01:10.490 --> 00:01:12.970 Constantin: When it came to the site for college, I went into 00:01:13.010 --> 00:01:14.170 a slightly different direction. 00:01:14.260 --> 00:01:19.040 I decided to study economics and management cuz I just wanted to get 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:23.710 like a broader understanding of business and the dynamics of various industries. 00:01:23.810 --> 00:01:29.750 And the time I thought that it would compliment my technical skills and help me 00:01:29.750 --> 00:01:34.590 to become a more effective entrepreneur, which kind of was the end goal by then. 00:01:36.110 --> 00:01:41.530 But during my time at business school, I quickly realized that all the other that 00:01:41.750 --> 00:01:46.560 were entrepreneurial and wanted to have found something were extremely limited 00:01:46.710 --> 00:01:48.320 because of their lacking tech skills. 00:01:48.780 --> 00:01:54.360 So I decided instead of being the guy that has to a tech 00:01:54.360 --> 00:01:55.960 guy, I want to be the tech guy. 00:01:56.100 --> 00:01:56.840 So that kind of. 00:01:57.785 --> 00:02:02.134 Led me back to computer science, moved to Berlin enrolled to a new 00:02:02.134 --> 00:02:06.424 kind of university called Code University which was very practical 00:02:06.484 --> 00:02:11.204 and allowed us to work on exciting projects with companies like Porsche. 00:02:11.304 --> 00:02:16.994 So, built autonomous drones with them and really explored all kinds 00:02:16.994 --> 00:02:19.114 of different science aspects. 00:02:19.114 --> 00:02:19.554 There are. 00:02:20.494 --> 00:02:26.439 And it was at that time where that our first company together with two dear 00:02:26.439 --> 00:02:31.039 friends that I had met at business school, which was a company called Blair. 00:02:31.339 --> 00:02:34.129 And we were doing income share agreements in the us. 00:02:34.979 --> 00:02:39.399 Went through yc raised in total over a hundred million in equity, in debt, 00:02:40.459 --> 00:02:45.209 and sold that business or the assets of that business at the end of last 00:02:45.209 --> 00:02:52.699 year and, During our time at Blair, we, were kind of looking for a tool 00:02:52.699 --> 00:02:57.859 like fast Gen to get us off the ground faster and as I essentially like a 00:02:58.059 --> 00:03:01.179 platform that would use us to friction and allows us to just ship quickly. 00:03:02.279 --> 00:03:07.169 And yeah, after talking to a couple of hundred users and validating 00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:10.169 that there might be others that are interested in a similar thing. 00:03:11.079 --> 00:03:14.609 We went back through a drawing board and started working on Fast 00:03:14.609 --> 00:03:15.969 John, and that's where we are now. 00:03:17.114 --> 00:03:18.604 Mike: Yeah, very, very interesting. 00:03:18.784 --> 00:03:21.014 So already I can feel a few things we have in common. 00:03:21.254 --> 00:03:24.704 I also started my coding journey with Visual Basic once upon a time. 00:03:24.954 --> 00:03:27.564 , and though I, I did study computer science in undergrad. 00:03:27.874 --> 00:03:29.874 I also studied mechanical engineering thinking it would 00:03:29.874 --> 00:03:31.034 make me a more well-rounded. 00:03:31.939 --> 00:03:32.419 Whatever I am. 00:03:32.469 --> 00:03:35.069 I don't use mechanical engineering much anymore, but certainly the 00:03:35.229 --> 00:03:37.509 calculus I learned along the way comes in handy from time to time. 00:03:38.249 --> 00:03:39.259 Yeah, that's really interesting. 00:03:39.399 --> 00:03:42.309 So sounds like Blair had a, had a pretty interesting ride. 00:03:42.309 --> 00:03:45.389 Certainly being admitted into YC and going through that program is really exciting. 00:03:45.876 --> 00:03:48.716 a second time founder now with Fast Gen, it sounds like you've also 00:03:48.716 --> 00:03:52.316 learned from sort of the basics of the beginning stages of starting a company, 00:03:52.316 --> 00:03:53.796 which is talking to lots of people. 00:03:54.021 --> 00:03:57.621 Validating your idea before you go and hide away for weeks or months or 00:03:57.621 --> 00:04:00.541 years and build a product that you're hoping people are interested in. 00:04:01.121 --> 00:04:02.451 That sounds familiar too. 00:04:02.571 --> 00:04:05.691 I, I probably should have mentioned as well, I'm, I'm a repeat founder myself, 00:04:05.801 --> 00:04:07.261 so that brings us to fast gen then. 00:04:07.261 --> 00:04:08.661 What's the, the pitch for fast gen? 00:04:08.661 --> 00:04:10.661 What do you tell people when you're first introducing it to them? 00:04:11.696 --> 00:04:11.986 Constantin: Yeah. 00:04:12.126 --> 00:04:17.946 So Fast Gen is a low-code platform for crafting APIs and workflows. 00:04:18.686 --> 00:04:23.036 And an analogy I like to use for maybe some of the less technical people is 00:04:23.446 --> 00:04:28.406 we kind of want to become what Webflow did for the front end, for the backend. 00:04:29.146 --> 00:04:30.406 So we. 00:04:31.166 --> 00:04:35.496 Are really focused on creating a experience that is less 00:04:35.496 --> 00:04:37.296 limited than, than other tools. 00:04:38.196 --> 00:04:41.306 As and I have to mention like we are builders at heart. 00:04:41.306 --> 00:04:43.556 We have four great engineers apart from me. 00:04:44.176 --> 00:04:48.036 And when we looked into existing solutions, we were always really 00:04:48.146 --> 00:04:50.236 annoyed at the lock in or. 00:04:50.956 --> 00:04:54.916 At the fact that there's just a limited complexity that you can build with it. 00:04:55.736 --> 00:04:59.356 And that was one of the core reasons why we were always kind 00:04:59.356 --> 00:05:03.276 of skeptical about employing any kind of low-code tool in our stack. 00:05:04.036 --> 00:05:07.966 so with fast Gen, it is really at the core of our mission to try to allow people 00:05:08.266 --> 00:05:10.806 to build as complex things as they want. 00:05:11.686 --> 00:05:13.046 are definitely not there yet. 00:05:14.146 --> 00:05:16.536 but yeah, really working hard on incorporating that. 00:05:17.781 --> 00:05:18.071 Mike: Yeah. 00:05:18.071 --> 00:05:20.191 You've already said a few things that I think are really interesting. 00:05:20.491 --> 00:05:23.461 Obviously the audience for the show are API developers, so I think I 00:05:23.461 --> 00:05:26.351 wanna pick your brain about the api generation side of things. 00:05:26.571 --> 00:05:30.911 But one thing that I've experienced over the past year or so is that a 00:05:30.911 --> 00:05:34.281 lot of developers seem to wanna lean away from low-code tools because it 00:05:34.281 --> 00:05:38.561 doesn't validate their desire to be deep in the, the weeds moving around 00:05:38.611 --> 00:05:41.321 zeros and ones, and, you know, being the smart guy, building smart things. 00:05:42.246 --> 00:05:45.986 And I feel like there, there's a round of tools that are coming in this sort of 00:05:45.986 --> 00:05:49.906 revolution of like focusing on DevX and productivity as opposed to focusing on 00:05:50.366 --> 00:05:52.186 the genius behind the keyboard, so to say. 00:05:52.516 --> 00:05:55.886 That's, that's a really interesting, like shift in mindset. 00:05:56.456 --> 00:05:59.576 So what I'm curious to hear from you is, have you found it challenging 00:05:59.876 --> 00:06:04.026 to explain to, to sort of hardcore developers that low-code tools are 00:06:04.026 --> 00:06:05.066 something they should play around with? 00:06:06.721 --> 00:06:07.461 Constantin: Yes and no. 00:06:07.881 --> 00:06:13.341 So, in my experience and after talking to couple of hundred deaths about 00:06:13.341 --> 00:06:18.021 this, there seems to be a pretty clear distinction between two types of 00:06:18.071 --> 00:06:20.021 developers in my experience at least. 00:06:20.761 --> 00:06:22.541 The one type of developer is. 00:06:23.666 --> 00:06:24.996 More focused on the outcome. 00:06:25.056 --> 00:06:27.476 So, so more of the like maker type, I would say. 00:06:28.176 --> 00:06:31.386 They don't necessarily care too much about how they get there. 00:06:31.446 --> 00:06:33.106 All they care about is getting there. 00:06:33.516 --> 00:06:35.556 So for this group, it's extremely easy. 00:06:35.816 --> 00:06:39.326 Usually there's very little skeptics about local tools. 00:06:39.776 --> 00:06:41.056 But then you have the other group. 00:06:41.246 --> 00:06:45.326 , which is what I maybe would call the, the coding purists who are really 00:06:45.536 --> 00:06:49.976 in love with architecting with like thinking about I don't know, how can we 00:06:49.976 --> 00:06:53.766 refactor it, is to make it like even more efficient and for them it's definitely 00:06:54.116 --> 00:06:55.966 more, more difficult, I would say. 00:06:56.986 --> 00:07:02.496 but I think as soon as developers realize that you are like pulling on 00:07:02.496 --> 00:07:05.866 in the same direction and not trying to work against each other things 00:07:05.866 --> 00:07:07.876 are becoming much, much easier and. 00:07:08.701 --> 00:07:12.961 Also like we are not product guys that kind of stumble into this. 00:07:12.961 --> 00:07:16.001 Like again, we are builders and programmers at heart ourselves. 00:07:16.141 --> 00:07:20.331 So we are kind of building this tool for ourselves as an audience as well, 00:07:20.551 --> 00:07:23.701 and wanna build it in a way that yeah, we would've wanted to use it. 00:07:23.841 --> 00:07:28.181 So, yeah, really trying to, to incorporate that feedback that we 00:07:28.181 --> 00:07:29.581 get, especially from the second group. 00:07:30.751 --> 00:07:31.761 Mike: Yeah, that's really solid. 00:07:32.041 --> 00:07:37.051 I think the hardcore sort of coding purists are a really interesting 00:07:37.291 --> 00:07:40.131 audience too because they are really good at sniffing out tools 00:07:40.131 --> 00:07:42.101 that are valuable for them and. 00:07:42.606 --> 00:07:45.326 Maybe it's just getting over that hump of like, you're not just being sold 00:07:45.326 --> 00:07:48.086 to, but you're being given something that multiplies your powers is a 00:07:48.086 --> 00:07:49.326 really interesting thing to do there. 00:07:50.306 --> 00:07:53.286 So can you tell me a little bit about the API generation side of the house? 00:07:53.286 --> 00:07:54.766 What exactly can Fast Gen do? 00:07:55.776 --> 00:07:56.066 Constantin: Yeah. 00:07:56.166 --> 00:08:00.896 So with Fast Gen you can essentially create APIs at a click of a button. 00:08:01.316 --> 00:08:05.386 So the first thing a user sees when he opens our interface is kind of this drag 00:08:05.386 --> 00:08:07.366 and drop interface with a flow chart. 00:08:08.066 --> 00:08:12.286 And so you can select from any type of arrest endpoint that you wanna build. 00:08:12.946 --> 00:08:15.216 You can manage your authentication. 00:08:15.716 --> 00:08:18.936 We do input validation and then you can start pulling 00:08:18.936 --> 00:08:20.946 in your what we call actions. 00:08:21.366 --> 00:08:23.116 And there are different types of actions. 00:08:23.176 --> 00:08:29.401 So, One are the flow control blocks, conditions, if else switch for whatever. 00:08:30.301 --> 00:08:32.741 Then we have native integrations. 00:08:33.041 --> 00:08:36.821 So you can up your own server and put it in there. 00:08:37.201 --> 00:08:41.801 You can send General HTTP requests to third party services, which is 00:08:41.951 --> 00:08:45.361 extremely powerful if you want to integrate something where we haven't 00:08:45.361 --> 00:08:47.281 built out direct integration with yet. 00:08:48.101 --> 00:08:52.091 And then that's the third part you pull in the direct integrations we have. 00:08:52.231 --> 00:08:55.891 So say you wanna send an email with SendGrid, you just pop in your API 00:08:55.951 --> 00:08:59.801 key, pull in the block into the builder and then do what you wanna do. 00:09:00.571 --> 00:09:03.431 And then all that's left as you hit deploy and you have a life 00:09:03.671 --> 00:09:07.421 endpoint that will return whatever logic you've built inside it. 00:09:08.201 --> 00:09:11.081 And I think one thing I want to add here is that again, trying 00:09:11.081 --> 00:09:12.481 to be really developer focused. 00:09:12.891 --> 00:09:17.381 Right now we are working on allowing you to and also ride all 00:09:17.381 --> 00:09:19.811 of this in kind of a conflict file. 00:09:19.991 --> 00:09:25.611 So similar to how with Terraform you would specify your DevOps logic and code. 00:09:26.516 --> 00:09:30.426 So yeah, developers are not limited to using the interface, 00:09:30.446 --> 00:09:32.616 but can do so if they wanna do. 00:09:32.874 --> 00:09:33.164 Mike: Yeah. 00:09:33.164 --> 00:09:33.444 I see. 00:09:33.464 --> 00:09:37.344 So there's some sort of, I don't know, edited in your it edit in your ide 00:09:37.874 --> 00:09:39.434 opportunity here with the config files. 00:09:40.254 --> 00:09:44.294 I imagine that probably allows you to use source control to manage the state 00:09:44.294 --> 00:09:46.714 of your workflows, APIs within fast gen. 00:09:46.714 --> 00:09:47.074 Is that right? 00:09:47.494 --> 00:09:48.624 Constantin: That is exactly right. 00:09:48.924 --> 00:09:50.954 So there's two options for users. 00:09:51.414 --> 00:09:54.394 One, we offer versioning directly in the tool itself. 00:09:54.894 --> 00:09:58.714 So every time you're save your endpoint, you deploy it, it automatically creates a 00:09:58.714 --> 00:10:00.274 version and so you can easily roll back. 00:10:00.454 --> 00:10:04.104 But if you want to, you can totally version it yourself as well. 00:10:04.641 --> 00:10:06.001 Mike: a little bit of something for everyone there. 00:10:06.121 --> 00:10:08.801 I think that works well with the ethos of kind of being low code too. 00:10:09.211 --> 00:10:12.521 Don't necessarily have to require folks to have a full, you know, get. 00:10:13.011 --> 00:10:14.581 Support system strung up there. 00:10:15.241 --> 00:10:20.311 Okay, so you're generating API endpoints for sort of whatever I might 00:10:20.311 --> 00:10:21.871 need as, as kind of your end user. 00:10:21.961 --> 00:10:24.241 What are some of the typical use cases you're seeing for this? 00:10:25.021 --> 00:10:28.191 Constantin: Yeah, so they are, we have really diverse use cases, so 00:10:28.401 --> 00:10:29.841 and that's also worth mentioning. 00:10:29.841 --> 00:10:33.131 We do have customers that are not even focused on the AP API part, 00:10:33.271 --> 00:10:34.731 but also on the automation part. 00:10:34.991 --> 00:10:40.506 So, We have started or launched only I think a month ago 00:10:40.526 --> 00:10:41.836 now pretty much to the date. 00:10:42.496 --> 00:10:46.666 And very selectively picked 15 design partners that we let on the platform 00:10:46.686 --> 00:10:48.066 and that are currently building with it. 00:10:48.636 --> 00:10:52.406 And there we have from the small startup that are actually building their. 00:10:53.301 --> 00:10:55.841 MVP with us as a, as their full backend. 00:10:56.621 --> 00:11:03.241 Two more enterprisey organizations just building not around their car but 00:11:03.371 --> 00:11:05.091 like for example, notification flows. 00:11:05.091 --> 00:11:06.491 We have on company doing that right now. 00:11:07.151 --> 00:11:10.821 And then the third type of, of user is for agencies. 00:11:10.931 --> 00:11:13.901 This also seems to be pretty interesting, empowering them to. 00:11:14.706 --> 00:11:18.636 Build stuff that they couldn't before, was more more complex before. 00:11:19.496 --> 00:11:23.536 Yeah, from APIs to simple automations. 00:11:23.916 --> 00:11:25.686 Pretty much yeah, wild 00:11:25.926 --> 00:11:26.216 Mike: Yeah, 00:11:26.326 --> 00:11:27.046 Constantin: things right now. 00:11:27.786 --> 00:11:28.396 Mike: certainly. 00:11:28.396 --> 00:11:28.676 Yeah. 00:11:28.866 --> 00:11:31.336 That . It's interesting because it feels like that gives you so many 00:11:31.336 --> 00:11:32.616 different directions you can go in. 00:11:33.156 --> 00:11:35.016 So what does your onboarding look like? 00:11:35.016 --> 00:11:38.616 What is the hello world of, of something that has so many potential use cases? 00:11:39.141 --> 00:11:39.431 Constantin: Yeah. 00:11:40.611 --> 00:11:44.641 so because it has so many different use cases and because it is such an 00:11:44.641 --> 00:11:49.331 open field currently when onboarding a customer, we talk to them beforehand 00:11:49.791 --> 00:11:53.031 directly and trying to figure out what are you actually trying to use this for? 00:11:53.811 --> 00:11:57.261 And we even go a step further and pre-build the first. 00:11:57.686 --> 00:12:00.976 Flow or the first automation or the first a p i for the customer, 00:12:01.006 --> 00:12:02.176 with the customer together. 00:12:02.996 --> 00:12:08.856 So, that way they get to see how things work on the platform. 00:12:08.926 --> 00:12:11.976 They directly get like, support for whatever they're trying to build, and 00:12:11.976 --> 00:12:15.586 then they're off on their own pretty much to, to further build out these things. 00:12:16.766 --> 00:12:17.056 Mike: Yeah. 00:12:17.286 --> 00:12:17.576 Okay. 00:12:18.396 --> 00:12:21.576 So I want to know a little bit about how you're building this. 00:12:21.576 --> 00:12:23.736 What, what is sort of powering fast gen? 00:12:23.736 --> 00:12:25.056 Like what is your engineering team using? 00:12:25.666 --> 00:12:25.956 Constantin: Yeah. 00:12:26.776 --> 00:12:30.096 So the backend we, this time we chose to go with. 00:12:31.431 --> 00:12:35.181 Using fiber, which for those not familiar, is super similar to 00:12:35.181 --> 00:12:36.991 Express, which we were using at Blair. 00:12:37.891 --> 00:12:42.401 Took a bit of time to get used to go coming from JS, but yeah, I think 00:12:42.401 --> 00:12:43.561 it's worth it in terms of speed. 00:12:44.031 --> 00:12:47.781 Then front end we're using View have been using that at Blair. 00:12:47.841 --> 00:12:49.861 Had a great time there and continued using that. 00:12:50.561 --> 00:12:55.351 And then in terms of our for the backend architecture, we are. 00:12:56.171 --> 00:12:58.941 Heavily using Centri, FUO as a messaging server. 00:13:00.111 --> 00:13:04.951 Rabbit mq In terms of our event service. 00:13:05.251 --> 00:13:07.031 We have built that on our own. 00:13:08.031 --> 00:13:11.681 We are thinking about temporal or integrating temporal. 00:13:12.061 --> 00:13:16.111 Not sure if we'll go for that yet, but yeah, that's like a rough overview 00:13:16.131 --> 00:13:17.751 of what we are doing in terms of 00:13:17.791 --> 00:13:18.031 Mike: Yeah. 00:13:18.141 --> 00:13:18.431 Okay. 00:13:19.011 --> 00:13:21.591 I'm, I'm hearing a lot of folks lately exploring go for 00:13:21.591 --> 00:13:22.791 performance benefits alone. 00:13:23.361 --> 00:13:25.721 And I think that's something that a lot of developers are starting 00:13:25.721 --> 00:13:28.201 to have in their quiver, at least to have some experience with it. 00:13:28.451 --> 00:13:29.531 For a lot of reasons like that. 00:13:29.631 --> 00:13:32.251 And I would imagine when you're doing things like powering workflows that 00:13:32.251 --> 00:13:36.341 need to be both fairly performant and also, you know, like dead reliable go 00:13:36.341 --> 00:13:37.821 is probably a good option there too. 00:13:38.351 --> 00:13:40.201 Constantin: Yeah, that was exactly our line of reasoning 00:13:40.301 --> 00:13:41.321 for why we went with that. 00:13:41.966 --> 00:13:46.076 Mike: So switching back then to the API generation side of things you're 00:13:46.076 --> 00:13:51.586 generating rest endpoints, presumably from your the API builder are the I'm trying 00:13:51.586 --> 00:13:55.686 to think of how API devs will, will sort of want to validate this, this themselves. 00:13:55.686 --> 00:13:57.446 But I'm, what I'm curious about, I guess are two things. 00:13:57.506 --> 00:14:00.456 Is are your APIs sort of compliant with something like Open api? 00:14:00.516 --> 00:14:03.166 Is there a way to spit out a spec or something like that? 00:14:03.536 --> 00:14:06.496 And then is there a way to test the APIs that are generated by fast Gen to make 00:14:06.496 --> 00:14:07.696 sure that they're working correctly? 00:14:09.011 --> 00:14:09.231 Constantin: Yes. 00:14:09.531 --> 00:14:14.081 So first question we are not able to, users are not able to 00:14:14.281 --> 00:14:16.801 generate their API specs with it yet, although that is definitely. 00:14:17.586 --> 00:14:21.086 on the roadmap and has been requested from our design partners already. 00:14:21.876 --> 00:14:27.086 When it comes to testing we just launched that feature yesterday, which is with what 00:14:27.086 --> 00:14:32.526 we call the debug mode which allows users to like just toggle into a different mode. 00:14:32.586 --> 00:14:35.766 And then you can see, you can test run your APIs. 00:14:35.766 --> 00:14:39.176 You can test it with different input data and you visually see, 00:14:39.936 --> 00:14:41.376 how it goes through the flow. 00:14:42.416 --> 00:14:45.756 If one of the actions errors out, you directly see it, you 00:14:45.756 --> 00:14:48.676 see all the context data of all of the actions within that flow. 00:14:49.336 --> 00:14:51.926 But if you don't wanna use our tool again there's just one 00:14:51.926 --> 00:14:53.776 button to test with postman. 00:14:54.916 --> 00:14:57.176 and so you can, you can do that as well if you're more used 00:14:57.176 --> 00:14:58.216 to that or preferring that. 00:14:58.216 --> 00:14:59.826 Overusing our debugger. 00:15:00.418 --> 00:15:00.708 Mike: Okay. 00:15:01.018 --> 00:15:04.108 That at least feels like you know, the process of building these things, 00:15:04.108 --> 00:15:08.388 especially on the, the like drag and drop experience for building our APIs. 00:15:08.388 --> 00:15:12.443 I think a lot of people wanna see kind of, Like viscerally see that the 00:15:12.443 --> 00:15:15.653 data is flowing through as expected and you know, have things turn red 00:15:15.653 --> 00:15:18.213 on screen or whatever it may be when things aren't working correctly. 00:15:18.783 --> 00:15:19.749 Yeah, that's really interesting. 00:15:19.969 --> 00:15:23.229 So why don't we talk a little bit about the workflow side of things too. 00:15:23.449 --> 00:15:25.699 What are some of the, I don't know, the interesting things 00:15:25.699 --> 00:15:26.869 about the workflow product. 00:15:27.569 --> 00:15:27.809 Constantin: Yeah. 00:15:28.429 --> 00:15:31.619 So with the workflows right now, we offer two different types of 00:15:31.779 --> 00:15:35.819 workflows and they are differentiated by what kind of trigger they use. 00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:40.739 So one is a pretty simple chron, you just select whatever 00:15:41.099 --> 00:15:42.059 interval you want it to run. 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:44.779 And the other is a event-based workflow. 00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:46.399 And how that works is. 00:15:47.149 --> 00:15:52.569 In all of your APIs or in your workflows, at any point, you can emit custom events. 00:15:53.389 --> 00:15:57.409 So then in the workflow side, again, you can create a workflow that listens to 00:15:57.409 --> 00:15:59.219 that kind of event to run a workflow. 00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:03.419 And that kind of allows users to further modularize their APIs, 00:16:03.419 --> 00:16:08.979 their workflows, and, kind of, yeah, pull things apart a little bit. 00:16:09.559 --> 00:16:13.759 But apart from that, It's really similar to the API builder, so you 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:15.849 have the same kind of logic available. 00:16:15.909 --> 00:16:17.609 You have the same kind of actions available. 00:16:18.489 --> 00:16:21.329 I think right now, honestly, the only difference is that you are not 00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:26.069 available to send like success or error responses as obviously you don't need it. 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:29.199 Yeah, apart from that, really similar to, to the API builder, 00:16:30.569 --> 00:16:30.859 Mike: Yeah. 00:16:31.009 --> 00:16:31.299 Okay. 00:16:31.399 --> 00:16:34.659 So when you say event-based, that is essentially saying that I can 00:16:34.729 --> 00:16:38.149 send an H A T P request to trigger one of these from something else. 00:16:38.169 --> 00:16:38.709 Is that right? 00:16:39.124 --> 00:16:39.448 Constantin: Well, yeah. 00:16:39.448 --> 00:16:43.518 Well, yes, for that, I guess I would rather go with an api just have an 00:16:43.658 --> 00:16:44.008 Mike: Right. 00:16:44.078 --> 00:16:45.438 Constantin: app and then just trigger that. 00:16:45.438 --> 00:16:45.678 Right. 00:16:45.778 --> 00:16:45.998 But, 00:16:46.038 --> 00:16:46.458 Mike: Of course. 00:16:46.458 --> 00:16:47.018 That makes sense. 00:16:47.018 --> 00:16:47.258 Yeah. 00:16:47.258 --> 00:16:47.498 Yeah. 00:16:47.698 --> 00:16:51.398 Constantin: but yeah, you can, you can emit events within your, your flows 00:16:51.538 --> 00:16:55.528 and then when that event gets emitted, another workflow can get triggered. 00:16:55.528 --> 00:16:57.408 It listens to that event that gets submitted. 00:16:58.368 --> 00:16:58.648 Mike: Yeah. 00:16:58.758 --> 00:16:59.048 Okay. 00:16:59.341 --> 00:17:02.481 It seems to me that it's probably likely that fast gen is using fast 00:17:02.501 --> 00:17:05.121 gen for some interesting things on, on your side of the defense. 00:17:05.501 --> 00:17:06.041 Is that right? 00:17:06.041 --> 00:17:08.161 Are you using fast gen for automations at home? 00:17:08.906 --> 00:17:09.126 Constantin: Yes. 00:17:09.426 --> 00:17:09.716 Mike: Yeah. 00:17:09.861 --> 00:17:11.681 Constantin: it for, for automations internally. 00:17:12.301 --> 00:17:15.171 We are not using it to build the core product of course, as I don't 00:17:15.171 --> 00:17:16.251 think that would be a great idea. 00:17:16.626 --> 00:17:17.516 Mike: It'd be a little challenging. 00:17:17.516 --> 00:17:17.756 Yeah. 00:17:18.111 --> 00:17:20.591 Constantin: but obviously all of our other automations that we have, 00:17:20.591 --> 00:17:24.861 like tons of slack bots that we built with fast gen, I don't know, 00:17:24.861 --> 00:17:26.941 simple things like auto archiving or. 00:17:28.096 --> 00:17:29.476 PR channels, stuff like that. 00:17:30.096 --> 00:17:32.396 But yeah, obviously heavily using our own tool. 00:17:33.466 --> 00:17:33.756 Mike: Sure. 00:17:33.786 --> 00:17:37.186 Yeah, I think that's probably a good sign that you like what you're 00:17:37.266 --> 00:17:40.026 building, but also you know, forcing yourself to experience both sides of 00:17:40.146 --> 00:17:42.906 building and using it is, is a good thing for iterating on the product too. 00:17:43.646 --> 00:17:45.996 So what things are you working on right now for fast gen? 00:17:46.414 --> 00:17:46.704 Constantin: Yeah. 00:17:46.724 --> 00:17:49.084 So a couple things that that we have on our mind. 00:17:49.424 --> 00:17:51.814 One, as I already mentioned auto generating your API 00:17:51.964 --> 00:17:53.134 docs is, is one of these. 00:17:53.934 --> 00:17:57.814 then I think another feature that would be really interesting to many 00:17:57.814 --> 00:18:03.834 of our users, Is having templates or recipes, I mentioned before, everything 00:18:03.834 --> 00:18:06.954 you build with fast gen you have a conflict file in the background. 00:18:07.894 --> 00:18:11.554 And what we notice is that a lot of our customers are essentially building 00:18:11.654 --> 00:18:13.904 the same things just adapted and 00:18:14.104 --> 00:18:14.344 Mike: Yeah. 00:18:14.504 --> 00:18:15.544 Constantin: for, for their own company. 00:18:16.114 --> 00:18:20.494 So why should we force users to build the same thing over and over again? 00:18:20.514 --> 00:18:23.254 Why don't we just offer it as like a template or a recipe. 00:18:23.594 --> 00:18:27.294 So they have like a library of different, already existing or 00:18:27.294 --> 00:18:28.734 pre-built APIs or workflows. 00:18:28.734 --> 00:18:32.654 They can browse, they can search through, and then just add them to the project, 00:18:33.074 --> 00:18:36.654 change out API keys or whatever they need to change to make it work for them. 00:18:37.394 --> 00:18:38.294 And then built with that. 00:18:39.314 --> 00:18:42.994 And then another feature that I find is really interesting. 00:18:44.149 --> 00:18:49.289 Is I've been experimenting a bit with or with allowing users or allowing you to 00:18:49.569 --> 00:18:52.199 generate APIs based on natural language. 00:18:52.459 --> 00:18:56.159 So obviously with the whole L l m hype and everything going around, 00:18:56.889 --> 00:18:57.239 Mike: right. 00:18:57.389 --> 00:19:01.159 Constantin: that got us thinking as well, and surprisingly it works. 00:19:02.499 --> 00:19:04.029 Pretty, pretty well already. 00:19:04.369 --> 00:19:07.109 So that's something to look forward to as well. 00:19:07.149 --> 00:19:10.829 I think that you can just say, I want an API that does that, and then we 00:19:10.829 --> 00:19:14.789 give you a pre-generated workflow and you just added and adapt the little 00:19:14.789 --> 00:19:15.749 things that you need to change. 00:19:16.999 --> 00:19:19.959 Mike: I can imagine a whole lot of people who are listening to this 00:19:20.009 --> 00:19:21.169 would be very interested in that. 00:19:21.169 --> 00:19:23.529 That sounds super interesting, especially for. 00:19:24.439 --> 00:19:26.529 , gosh, I mean, everything under the sun from like developer 00:19:26.729 --> 00:19:27.809 advocates just wanting to show off. 00:19:27.809 --> 00:19:30.009 Here's how you would do X with Y platform, right? 00:19:30.009 --> 00:19:32.849 Like implement a weather thing in view or a to-do list in, 00:19:33.229 --> 00:19:34.289 you know, laville, whatever. 00:19:34.869 --> 00:19:38.819 But certainly sometimes it's just easier to say what you wanna do than to envision 00:19:38.879 --> 00:19:40.619 how you might connect the dots together. 00:19:41.109 --> 00:19:44.319 Especially for educating people and building you know, fresh products. 00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:45.559 That's, that's, that's super cool. 00:19:45.579 --> 00:19:46.719 I'm really interested in seeing that. 00:19:48.059 --> 00:19:51.999 So at this point, fast gen is in, you said it's a closed beta at the moment. 00:19:53.079 --> 00:19:53.819 Constantin: It is, yes. 00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:54.369 Mike: Yeah. 00:19:54.414 --> 00:19:56.014 Constantin: working towards opening it up. 00:19:56.714 --> 00:20:02.914 It will take a couple more weeks, but I expect that by probably middle to end 00:20:02.934 --> 00:20:06.524 of May we will open up to our open beta where people can sign up themselves. 00:20:07.749 --> 00:20:08.039 Mike: Okay. 00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:09.239 Yeah, I think that'll be really exciting. 00:20:09.389 --> 00:20:12.699 What sort of feedback are you looking for from developers who may be 00:20:12.699 --> 00:20:13.659 interested in the product at the moment? 00:20:14.564 --> 00:20:16.614 Constantin: Yeah, so, so that's actually one of the, the key 00:20:16.614 --> 00:20:17.454 things we're looking for. 00:20:17.584 --> 00:20:21.254 We've obviously greatly value the feedback of customers and potential customers. 00:20:22.434 --> 00:20:27.614 and we, we'd love to hear about the specific aspects that fa fast gen that 00:20:27.614 --> 00:20:30.974 they find most valuable, and obviously any feature that they think would 00:20:30.974 --> 00:20:33.084 make their experience even better. 00:20:34.434 --> 00:20:37.654 And additionally to that we're always interested in learning 00:20:37.704 --> 00:20:41.614 about the unique use cases that customers might want to use it. 00:20:41.614 --> 00:20:46.024 You mentioned it before a lot of different that you could use fast gen for. 00:20:46.804 --> 00:20:51.914 But the more we hear about what kind of things people want to, to solve and 00:20:51.914 --> 00:20:54.674 what kind of specific challenges they have, where fast gen might come in, 00:20:55.064 --> 00:20:56.954 that usually is really helpful for us. 00:20:58.244 --> 00:21:01.534 Mike: Yeah, I'd imagine things like your, I forget the exact word you used before, 00:21:01.534 --> 00:21:04.814 maybe direct integrations, things with like your, your coach built integrations 00:21:04.814 --> 00:21:06.374 with say, slack or whatever it may be. 00:21:06.734 --> 00:21:10.054 I, I'm guessing you'll probably get a mile long list of those from people, things 00:21:10.054 --> 00:21:11.454 that they wanted to talk to natively. 00:21:11.689 --> 00:21:12.109 Constantin: Please. 00:21:12.334 --> 00:21:12.454 Mike: I. 00:21:12.729 --> 00:21:13.589 Constantin: I'm, I'm looking forward 00:21:14.399 --> 00:21:14.689 Mike: Yeah. 00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:16.129 Yeah, I think so too. 00:21:16.229 --> 00:21:19.369 Oh, what about trying to think of like, people who are building the 00:21:19.369 --> 00:21:21.929 services that might make sense to be an integration for fast gen. 00:21:21.929 --> 00:21:22.889 Is there a process for that? 00:21:23.684 --> 00:21:24.404 Constantin: Yes, absolutely. 00:21:24.704 --> 00:21:28.894 So if you are building a service and would like to see yourself being 00:21:28.964 --> 00:21:30.654 created to fast gen, please reach out. 00:21:31.394 --> 00:21:34.514 We have Member that is exclusively focused on, on building out the 00:21:34.514 --> 00:21:35.714 integration side of things right now. 00:21:35.974 --> 00:21:38.304 And obviously we do have a backlog already. 00:21:39.404 --> 00:21:42.234 but yeah, which is prioritizing on, on what gets requested the 00:21:42.234 --> 00:21:45.004 most and then going through and, and trying to, to build that. 00:21:46.514 --> 00:21:46.804 Mike: Sure. 00:21:46.834 --> 00:21:48.124 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 00:21:48.424 --> 00:21:51.944 I, I feel like that is, will be an endless list and especially people who find value 00:21:51.944 --> 00:21:54.664 in this will have pretty good feedback for you on the things that they're 00:21:54.664 --> 00:21:56.064 interested in or missing or whatever. 00:21:56.804 --> 00:21:57.094 Yeah. 00:21:57.244 --> 00:21:57.534 Okay. 00:21:57.674 --> 00:22:00.531 So let's see what else, what, what what are, what do you see as sort 00:22:00.531 --> 00:22:01.931 of the long term future of fast gen? 00:22:01.931 --> 00:22:05.021 What are you trying to, I guess solve in the long run? 00:22:05.718 --> 00:22:08.200 Constantin: the major idea is, is to empower people. 00:22:08.700 --> 00:22:13.850 And by empowering I I not only mean like and non devs. 00:22:14.560 --> 00:22:16.870 Which it certainly can use the platform. 00:22:16.870 --> 00:22:20.710 Obviously it's very helpful for them, but also empowering developers and reducing 00:22:20.710 --> 00:22:22.750 the friction between members in the team. 00:22:23.630 --> 00:22:31.520 So I would imagine a future where, both the devs and the maybe the ops team are 00:22:31.520 --> 00:22:33.520 using fast gen and the same platform. 00:22:34.510 --> 00:22:39.090 For, for different use cases, but also able to reduce the, the friction 00:22:39.090 --> 00:22:40.330 and the borders between teams. 00:22:40.860 --> 00:22:44.410 And what I mean by that, like a common example would be we, we saw before 00:22:44.410 --> 00:22:50.250 that whenever you limit ability to look into stuff or change stuff bottleneck 00:22:50.250 --> 00:22:54.650 it on, on the developers, becomes much slower and much more of a drag. 00:22:55.710 --> 00:22:56.000 Mike: Yeah. 00:22:56.310 --> 00:23:02.270 Constantin: allowing a non-techie to just observe or see what a kind of workflow 00:23:02.270 --> 00:23:06.230 does or an API does, or maybe even allow 'em to make changes directly greatly 00:23:06.230 --> 00:23:10.880 reduces friction in teams internally greatly reduce friction for us internally. 00:23:11.380 --> 00:23:14.250 And that's what I hope fast gen will be able to achieve 00:23:14.250 --> 00:23:15.330 for other companies as well. 00:23:16.460 --> 00:23:16.750 Mike: Sure. 00:23:16.770 --> 00:23:18.180 Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense. 00:23:18.560 --> 00:23:21.140 I, I bring this up fairly often on the show, but I in a past life I 00:23:21.140 --> 00:23:23.990 worked for Stripe as a developer advocate doing payments things there. 00:23:24.210 --> 00:23:27.270 And one of the things that I found doing advocacy work for payments 00:23:27.290 --> 00:23:30.390 is that Payments sound very simple, but there are like a lot of things 00:23:30.390 --> 00:23:32.570 that can happen in the workflow of a payment that can go wrong. 00:23:32.630 --> 00:23:35.930 And so it's really helpful to give people a visualization for here's, 00:23:35.950 --> 00:23:39.730 here's the entire workflow of what, what it takes to swipe a, a credit card and 00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:41.770 move money from one account to another. 00:23:41.990 --> 00:23:42.210 And. 00:23:42.655 --> 00:23:45.785 . The really, the easiest example of that is if you swipe your credit card 00:23:45.785 --> 00:23:47.555 and it gets declined, what do I do? 00:23:47.555 --> 00:23:47.795 Right? 00:23:47.795 --> 00:23:49.235 There's a workflow there that has to happen. 00:23:49.765 --> 00:23:52.885 And one of the things that I was exploring as part of like the educational stuff 00:23:52.965 --> 00:23:57.005 I was doing was just showing people a diagram of the workflow of, of here's 00:23:57.005 --> 00:23:58.205 what your payment process looks like. 00:23:58.415 --> 00:24:02.175 That can be applied to any other sort of workflow based problem 00:24:02.175 --> 00:24:06.975 solving, but thinking about your template Recipe product that you're 00:24:06.975 --> 00:24:07.975 starting to build out here too. 00:24:08.345 --> 00:24:11.465 Those recipes will also sort of become like a checklist for teams 00:24:11.465 --> 00:24:13.945 that these are the things that we need to get done to implement X feature. 00:24:14.525 --> 00:24:19.345 And showing that here's the shape of the workflow to a PM or to a business 00:24:19.345 --> 00:24:22.545 stakeholder, something like that puts a lot more perspective into the 00:24:23.225 --> 00:24:26.345 scoping process, into making sure that we know what the dev team is going 00:24:26.345 --> 00:24:27.505 to need to do to get this all done. 00:24:27.505 --> 00:24:30.505 Or even just, you know, the low-code integrator team, whoever that 00:24:30.505 --> 00:24:31.705 may be building this stuff out. 00:24:32.285 --> 00:24:36.525 . It's very, maybe it's not surprising, but it's very interesting to see how people. 00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:39.990 Think through problems differently when they have visuals placed in front of them. 00:24:40.570 --> 00:24:43.630 And for me, that's one of my favorite things about low-code tools is 00:24:43.630 --> 00:24:46.920 that you know, constantly you and I are fairly technical people. 00:24:46.970 --> 00:24:50.040 We've probably spent a lot of time yelling at computers and trying to get that 00:24:50.040 --> 00:24:51.400 console logged to show what you want. 00:24:51.940 --> 00:24:55.160 But for someone who's never done this, it's really hard to convey what the 00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:57.640 problem space looks like and what you're actually doing when you're sitting at 00:24:57.640 --> 00:25:01.720 your computer all day, you know, downing red Bulls and, and scratching your head. 00:25:02.500 --> 00:25:04.500 . I think that's a really cool opportunity and I think it's 00:25:04.500 --> 00:25:07.460 something that a lot of folks who've built things can identify with. 00:25:07.710 --> 00:25:10.820 Often you feel like you're under the gun, you know, to get things done 00:25:10.820 --> 00:25:13.820 faster than is realistic because it just seems so simple to go take a payment. 00:25:14.270 --> 00:25:15.750 I think there's a big opportunity for you there. 00:25:15.750 --> 00:25:16.790 That's, that's really interesting. 00:25:17.545 --> 00:25:18.215 Constantin: Absolutely. 00:25:18.335 --> 00:25:19.335 I couldn't have said it better. 00:25:19.435 --> 00:25:22.135 You chose way better words than I would've used to Describe that 00:25:22.650 --> 00:25:22.770 Mike: I. 00:25:23.360 --> 00:25:23.720 That's right. 00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:24.640 I won't take credit for it. 00:25:24.730 --> 00:25:27.880 Actually one of the things that I'll share in the show notes in addition to fast 00:25:27.900 --> 00:25:31.810 gen contact information and where to find you and things like that at some point 00:25:31.810 --> 00:25:35.370 in the past I wrote along diatribe on why developers should embrace low-code tools. 00:25:35.860 --> 00:25:38.420 And I think that's a really valuable thing just to kind of like have in your 00:25:38.420 --> 00:25:39.940 back pocket as like, it's empowering. 00:25:39.940 --> 00:25:43.390 It's really cool to see, and it makes all of our lives easier to a certain extent. 00:25:44.330 --> 00:25:48.070 So Constantine, I believe, did I see that you are currently in YC in 00:25:48.070 --> 00:25:51.030 the, the winter program for 2023. 00:25:51.180 --> 00:25:52.510 What, how long does that program last? 00:25:52.510 --> 00:25:53.750 What, what comes at the end of that? 00:25:54.830 --> 00:25:58.610 Constantin: At the end of the program, demo day comes, which already happened 00:25:59.010 --> 00:26:00.210 actually last week or the week 00:26:00.425 --> 00:26:00.845 Mike: It did. 00:26:00.915 --> 00:26:01.205 Yeah. 00:26:01.555 --> 00:26:01.845 Okay. 00:26:01.910 --> 00:26:05.650 Constantin: So we are, we are through with our, our second wife Iran now. 00:26:06.430 --> 00:26:10.170 But yeah, as always was a extremely valuable experience and yeah, 00:26:10.170 --> 00:26:14.610 couldn't recommend it more due to maybe any listeners trying on the 00:26:14.620 --> 00:26:16.380 edger on the fence about doing we. 00:26:17.530 --> 00:26:17.730 Mike: Yeah. 00:26:17.730 --> 00:26:18.350 Got it, got it. 00:26:18.350 --> 00:26:19.110 Well, congratulations. 00:26:19.110 --> 00:26:20.530 I'm sure that's quite the thing to run through. 00:26:21.110 --> 00:26:23.730 For the folks listening to the show, what's the best way to find fast gen 00:26:23.730 --> 00:26:24.890 and what's the best way to find you? 00:26:25.840 --> 00:26:26.130 Constantin: Yeah. 00:26:26.230 --> 00:26:29.620 So to find fast gen, really simple, just go to fast gen.com. 00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:31.650 Feel free to reach out to me directly. 00:26:31.860 --> 00:26:34.850 My email is Constantine with a c fast gen.com. 00:26:35.630 --> 00:26:36.850 And that's also where you find me. 00:26:36.910 --> 00:26:38.770 I'm not really that active on social media. 00:26:39.180 --> 00:26:40.180 You'll find me on LinkedIn. 00:26:40.300 --> 00:26:42.900 I have a Twitter account, but not really active on there. 00:26:44.015 --> 00:26:45.975 Yeah, best way would probably be via email. 00:26:46.745 --> 00:26:47.195 Mike: Sure thing. 00:26:47.195 --> 00:26:47.795 Yeah, that's great. 00:26:47.795 --> 00:26:49.555 I'll make sure I include all of that in the show notes. 00:26:50.205 --> 00:26:52.665 And Constantine, it's been super, super cool talking to you. 00:26:52.725 --> 00:26:54.945 I'm really interested to hear sort of the future of your product 00:26:54.965 --> 00:26:57.355 and would love to have you come back and chat with us anytime. 00:26:57.565 --> 00:26:59.805 Especially if you've got launches and things like that to talk about. 00:26:59.805 --> 00:27:01.165 I think it'll be really interesting to see. 00:27:01.655 --> 00:27:04.295 And I'm, I'm definitely interested for the folks listening to the show and 00:27:04.295 --> 00:27:08.085 hearing what you think about the product and uses you might have for an a low-code 00:27:08.085 --> 00:27:09.765 tool that helps generate APIs as well. 00:27:10.265 --> 00:27:12.525 So p please feel free to to get in touch with us on the 00:27:12.525 --> 00:27:13.885 site APIs you won't hate.com. 00:27:14.255 --> 00:27:18.415 You can email me, Mike APIs you won't hate.com, and I'm also on Mastodon and 00:27:18.575 --> 00:27:19.535 LinkedIn in a bunch of other places. 00:27:19.795 --> 00:27:21.635 Constantine Schreiber, thanks so much for being here. 00:27:21.665 --> 00:27:22.475 It's been a real pleasure. 00:27:22.585 --> 00:27:23.875 I've had a great time chatting with you. 00:27:24.600 --> 00:27:25.190 Constantin: Thank you Mike. 00:27:25.190 --> 00:27:25.830 Thanks for inviting. 00:27:25.930 --> 00:27:27.350 It has been a pleasure and 00:27:27.370 --> 00:27:27.590 Mike: You 00:27:27.865 --> 00:27:28.225 Constantin: a good day. 00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:29.100 Mike: of course. 00:27:29.100 --> 00:27:29.500 Take care.