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Hello, my name is David Olds and I'm your cohost for the Mississippi Happenings podcast.

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Joining me each week is my friend and cohost, Jim Newman.

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Jim, how are you buddy?

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I'm doing fine, how are you doing?

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Man, I'm good.

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ah Yes, yes, we are very fortunate to have two very distinguished guests with us, and very
happy with that.

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Each week, we talk about the kitchen table issues facing Mississippians.

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But we cannot ignore the fact that what happens around the world affects us in
Mississippi.

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Since September the second, the US military has struck at least three boats off the coast
of Venezuela, killing at least 17 people.

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President Donald Trump said that the boats were carrying drugs and they're out to the
United States.

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Seven warships, a nuclear powered submarine, and F-35 self fighters have been deployed to
international waters off Venezuela's coast.

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This is the biggest US naval deployment in the Caribbean.

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Today we have two very distinguished individuals with firsthand experience and knowledge
of military affairs and international laws and diplomacy.

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I want to first welcome retired Rear Navy Admiral Jamie Barnett.

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Jamie is a professor at the Ole Miss Center for Intelligence and Security Studies teaching
national security and cyber security policy courses.

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He uh served 32 years in the US Navy Reserve, rising to the rank of rear admiral and
serving as deputy commander.

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Jamie also could be found on substacks opinionated by facts.

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Jamie, we want to thank you for your service to our country and it's great to have you
with us again.

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David, thanks.

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Thank you, Jim, for having me back.

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Also joining us is Major General Andy Turley.

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ah Major Turley is a retired Air Force Major General and a retired senior executive with
the Department of Defense.

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He served more than 27 years in a wide variety of active duty and reserve, judge,
advocate,

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positions in the wing, major command, and at the Pentagon levels.

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His highest military award is the Distinguished Service Medal.

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He is currently counsel to the law firm of Flauette in McLean, Virginia.

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ah Major, thank you so much for your service, and thank you for joining us today.

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Thank you, Dave.

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It's my honor to join you today.

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Fantastic.

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oh

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that's major general.

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Yes.

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You can easily pick out the civilian in the group.

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My apologies, Major General.

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Jim, you want to get us started?

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uh

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ah Sure, I guess I can get us started.

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When I was in the Air Force, the same is true of all the military groups, there's a chain
of command.

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And I've been wondering if I am the captain of one of the ships ah that fires whatever
artillery they're using.

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to destroy these ships.

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Where does he get the command from?

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It has to be, ah I don't think he can take that on his own.

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And I assume that there's a chain of command where he gets the authority to do it.

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Because as far as I know, I don't think it's part of...

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the United States.

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military to

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blow up ships in international waters.

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So if I'm the ship's commander, I certainly want to be on solid footing so that I know
that that command is legitimate.

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So for either one of you to take it on, how does he get his orders?

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take the Navy answer since I think they're involved.

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Then I'm going let General Turley speak to the legalities of just how firm a ground they
were on.

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first, I would say you're exactly right that that has to be authorized.

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And while this probably was approved somewhere in the Pentagon or White House and
Pentagon, we do have a command structure around the world called the COCOM, the Combatant

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Command.

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and they answer really directly to the President of United States through the Secretary of
Defense, Secretary of War, as it might be.

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And in this particular case, it's U.S.

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Southern Command, which has the area of assigned responsibility.

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The base, it covers Central America and South America, and the Southern Command

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is all of our forces.

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It's a joint and unified command.

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So Army, Navy, Air Force, all of the various services, although very often it is a Navy
Admiral that has it.

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And then under that is the Navy component command, which is fourth fleet.

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And when you were mentioning, when David was mentioning the various types of ships and
submarines and things like that, these would all fall under fourth fleet.

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And fourth fleet,

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uh It's a little bit, and the US Southern Command mission is a little bit different from
other places in the world.

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We're not really too worried about being attacked by any of those countries, but the
missions we have is to actually work with other militaries, gain uh influence with those

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communities.

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We also want to do humanitarian assistance and disaster relief and counter drug
operations.

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And those drug operations are very typical.

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We do them all the time.

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As matter of fact, as you see in the slide right there, we work with the Coast Guard,
which is, while not under the Department of Defense, works very closely with it.

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Often you'll have Navy ships that have a Coast Guard uh unit on board because the Navy
will provide the platform, the sensors, the intelligence, and then the Coast Guard will

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come in for a non-

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defense or war function, but rather a law enforcement function.

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So let me turn it over to General Turley at this point.

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The situation that we're dealing with with Venezuela right now, first of all, to answer
your question, Jim, about how these orders flow, every uh COCOM has an operation center.

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They will develop the particular war plan from there, identify the target, and then flow
it down to the operator to have that operator act on that order.

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So this is something that's vetted uh through the command of the

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The Navy captain out there is not on his or her own by any stretch.

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He's really tied into a big operation.

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And these orders flow down uh from Southcom to the particular asset that they're using, be
it a ship, be it a drone, ah be it an F-35.

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It would go down to Southcom, flow to each of the component commands, uh

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representatives and let's say they wanted to use a predator.

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They would they would flow that to the Air Force and then the Air Force would execute the
order.

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So that's kind of how that how that flows uh with regard to uh what is going on currently
in the Caribbean.

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uh Jamie makes the excellent point that the Coast Guard has taken has taken a major role
around the world with regard to drug interdiction.

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Why?

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because it's a law enforcement mission.

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they are always getting thousands of tons of cocaine and other drugs and intercepting them
before it gets to US shores.

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The importance of that fact is that these particular uh activities that are taking place
off of the shores of Venezuela

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are nowhere near the continental United States.

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And the issue is with regard to blowing up these boats, it is using the military for a law
enforcement purpose.

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And that is the fundamental issue.

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And by conflating the two, you introduce a lot of confusion with regard to what the
authorities are to use the force and what force can be applied.

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When you have somebody driving a drug boat, they are not a combatant.

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They are civilian, whether they're armed or not.

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And everything is fact specific in terms of making a determination of when you can fire
and who you can fire upon.

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The secretary Rubio made the point that, in the in the case of blowing up, at least in
response to questions about blowing up the first boat.

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Well, we could have intercepted.

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We just decided to go.

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and and and basically blow them out of the water.

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uh That's really problematic on a couple of levels.

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First of all, under US law and under international law, the key to all of this is the fact
that force is a last resort, not a first resort.

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um It's if a policeman in in Jackson, Mississippi, were defending herself against a
threat.

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The threat would have to be imminent and she would only be have to use deadly force if she
was in immediate danger.

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The same concept holds true with regard to dealing with uh threats against the United
States.

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And when you talk about the international law of armed conflict, when you talk about the
US law of armed conflict, you're talking about the rules that exist.

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in dealing with opposing nations and opposing armed forces.

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you exercise, you take a defensive posture on that based upon the fact that whether you
are fired upon or whether you're in imminent danger of being fired upon.

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doesn't, the argument with regard to the drug interdiction here is the fact that uh

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In my view, based upon my experiences as a military lawyer, there was no imminent threat
to the United States.

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The argument has been made that, well, importing drugs is an imminent threat to the United
States.

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But when you're dealing with a small drug boat off the shore of Venezuela that wasn't even
destined for the United States, as far as we can tell, uh

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To my mind, that is an improper use of military force.

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And as the secretary says, what we could have done, what we usually do is use the Coast
Guard, a law enforcement agency, to go ahead and do the interdiction.

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um There was even um some discussion.

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read some and it is the fact that the first boat, at least, turned around when it realized
it was in

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It was in uh danger.

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Now, just the mere appearance or whatever the whatever the weapon system was that they
were using, turn them around that if there was ever an argument about imminent danger,

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that certainly turned that around.

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So that's why that's why I say that it was an improper use of military force.

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uh Even a even you're the policeman in Jackson, Mississippi, the policewoman.

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If a felon is fleeing,

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She can't shoot him in the back, ah which is essentially what happened in this particular
circumstance.

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um don't consider these the now the argument has been made that while drugs present a real
danger to the United States and to our to our country, I absolutely agree with that.

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But I but it's not the same as a military threat.

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It's not the same as an armed force threat like Al Qaeda, like

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ISIS like um Iraq and Afghanistan.

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um It is a far different threat and it is not a threat that can be met in my view under
both domestic international law um by use of military force.

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Let's put it in terms of land.

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What if there's a suspected drug lord that's driving, uh say, 500 kilos of cocaine across
Dallas?

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You can't shoot him with a shoulder-mounted, a shoulder-launch weapon and just blow up his
car.

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uh We have to have some kind of evidence that can lead to probable cause.

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They said we had intelligence on this and as Major General Turley knows, anytime an
intelligence breed is being delivered, they give it with a level of confidence.

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And the reason that they do that is that you're putting together lots of pieces of
information that may not always turn out to be the case.

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And so they hedge it.

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So, you know, an intelligence report's a whole lot more like a weather report than it is
like an indictment.

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It is actually based on testimony, sworn testimony.

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So yeah, so they said there are drugs in that boat.

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They said these are drug people.

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They say it's headed toward the United States.

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Maybe it is, but you know, in that first boat with 11 people, that's a whole lot of people
to be delivering drugs.

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And it's a thousand nautical miles from the continental United States.

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Why do they need that many people?

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They could have taken some of those people out and actually had more drugs.

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on board.

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So there's a real question.

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Well, maybe they were actually human trafficking in some ways or something like that.

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So you just killed a bunch of innocent people.

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So, you know, the thing that concerns me, and I think the thing that the general attorney
was alluding to is somebody said, this is what we're going to do.

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It came down through Southern command.

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And at some point there was a situation where he said, shoot that boat.

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And somebody had to issue an order.

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And the question always is, is that a lawful order?

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Because we have a duty to obey lawful orders.

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And we also have a duty to disobey unlawful orders.

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I don't know that this will ever be adjudicated because the people that would be judging
this would be the people who are probably issuing the orders or issuing the operation on

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this.

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But it is a major departure.

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from the way that the United States, and I'll have to tell you other allies of the United
States conduct business.

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And it's alarming to me, nobody is suggesting that we should allow these drugs to come out
of Venezuela or to go anywhere else at all.

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But we have a program for that.

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That's what we've been doing is interdicting these things.

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And uh it's far from going to war with Venezuela, although some of these actions may.

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uh result in some kind of reaction from Venezuela.

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Uh.

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We know that, or let me ask you this, with Donald Trump, don't know really what is going
on in his mind or why he does certain things.

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But what do you think could be maybe the real reason or real reasons for the attack?

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My sense is that it's intended to be a deterrent, which is fine, ah but that's not how we
do business.

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The problem is you can have a deterrent, but when a deterrent becomes an illegal activity,
that's a horse of a different color.

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And I consider this an illegal activity because of the misuse of military force in this
context.

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So that's really kind of my sense of what's going on.

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And I, you know, the administration, Secretary Reveal, have not really come up with any
legal basis for the action other than drugs are bad for America, drugs are dangerous to

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America.

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I do think that one of the things, and I made the observation before, that the Trump
administration, if you try to analyze the totality of their uh policy, is well, what would

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uh a reality TV show be if you put it into the White House.

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And so it's always very performative.

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And in this particular case, who out there is for drugs and drug runners?

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Well, nobody is.

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So you can kind of say, well, this is an enemy that we can all be against together.

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The problem is, is that there are lot of different ways to do that.

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And it doesn't have to involve killing people without due process.

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They could have stopped that boat and actually prosecuted them and they'd still be alive.

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And we would have found out, were there drugs on there?

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Were they all drug runners?

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Were they actually somebody who was captured, didn't want to be on there?

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So um the illegality of this is the thing, as General Turley says, that is most concerning
about it.

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And if I can add to that, the Congress authorizes the military to uh take actions.

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Under Article 1 of the Constitution, Congress has the right to declare war.

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uh Congress issued, when we went into Iraq and Afghanistan, they issued what's known as an
authorization for the use of military force.

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And that identified

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use of military force against Al-Qaeda, against ISIS, and against those armed opponents
that we have.

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The administration and no military has a blank check for the use of military force.

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uh And in this case, there is no authorization for the use of military force that has come
from Congress uh to engage in this kind of activities.

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I have some colleagues of mine who published a uh

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an op-ed in the Hill yesterday addressing this particular issue and saying Congress should
really look into this because of the misuse, in my view, of military force for a law

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enforcement purpose.

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By the way, I'm not sure, they haven't identified the units that were involved in this.

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I would think that they would have fallen under Southern Command, maybe 4th Fleet, there
may be some Air Forces that were viewed.

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You're seeing, were seeing a picture of the MQ-9 Reaper, oh as General Turley mentioned,
the Predator.

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If it was one of these types of assets that were shooting these boats, it's probably
shooting a hellfire missile or something like that.

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It's $130,000, $150,000 missile to take out a pretty decrepit looking boat when all you
really had to do was pull in front of them and stop them.

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That's another aspect of it that makes me think it's more performative in nature.

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They actually want the drama.

206
00:26:32,683 --> 00:26:34,525
of killing these people.

207
00:26:35,066 --> 00:26:43,706
And I'm sure it does send a message to Venezuela, but it is a medieval message in a lot of
ways.

208
00:26:43,706 --> 00:26:52,416
It's not the way that nations in a situation where we believe in and support international
laws who behave.

209
00:26:52,958 --> 00:26:54,542
Jamie, you probably know.

210
00:26:54,542 --> 00:27:01,958
Do you think it's cheaper to send that Hellfire missile or send a Coast Guard ship?

211
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:09,932
The Coast Guard ships can be out there anyway because we can't patrol it with just
hellfire missiles, right?

212
00:27:09,932 --> 00:27:12,473
So we have the Coast Guard cutters out there.

213
00:27:12,473 --> 00:27:16,654
We have the Coast Guard units that are aboard our Navy destroyers.

214
00:27:16,714 --> 00:27:23,766
Dezron 40 is, know, deploy ships to this area for this very purpose.

215
00:27:23,766 --> 00:27:27,433
We're gonna have them out there anyway and they're gonna be more effective.

216
00:27:27,433 --> 00:27:27,880
It's like

217
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:33,103
asking for the Coast Guard picking up, you know, 75,000 pounds of cocaine.

218
00:27:33,103 --> 00:27:37,106
uh That was done without a Hellfire missile.

219
00:27:37,106 --> 00:27:41,949
And we actually probably got the people, which means we also get to interrogate them.

220
00:27:41,949 --> 00:27:44,490
We get more intelligence, more information.

221
00:27:44,490 --> 00:27:53,856
So there are just a lot of reasons why I don't think it was uh good judgment and it was
bad law that allowed these strikes to occur.

222
00:27:54,795 --> 00:28:05,020
And if I may add, uh whether it's it is probably cheaper to go ahead and use a Hellfire
missile, but it's not legal.

223
00:28:05,661 --> 00:28:07,382
That's my concern.

224
00:28:07,522 --> 00:28:14,165
And the United States should stand by the legality of its actions.

225
00:28:14,166 --> 00:28:18,808
And the United States has always done the right thing.

226
00:28:18,808 --> 00:28:24,327
And doing the right thing is conducting itself in accordance with domestic law.

227
00:28:24,327 --> 00:28:25,828
and international law.

228
00:28:27,464 --> 00:28:41,609
Well, that's why I asked the question because one of the first things that I was
introduced to ah when I joined the Air Force was the Uniform Military Code of Justice.

229
00:28:41,609 --> 00:28:52,352
ah one of the items was that you had to follow legal orders, but if it was an illegal
order, ah

230
00:28:53,862 --> 00:29:05,017
If you wanted to take your chances and you were convinced it was an illegal order, ah you
needed to stand up and not do it.

231
00:29:05,017 --> 00:29:11,599
And I couldn't find anything to justify blowing up these ships.

232
00:29:11,599 --> 00:29:23,304
I want to say that somewhere there was the intelligence ah and maybe it was intelligence
from on the ground.

233
00:29:23,730 --> 00:29:26,942
that the ship, this little boat had left.

234
00:29:27,639 --> 00:29:33,890
You know, I'm just a civilian and I don't have access to uh all that information.

235
00:29:33,890 --> 00:29:37,992
I did have clearance at one time, but that was years ago.

236
00:29:38,573 --> 00:29:48,162
But it just really bothered me that we were killing people and it didn't seem that there
was any justification.

237
00:29:48,162 --> 00:29:50,002
for why we were doing it.

238
00:29:51,110 --> 00:29:57,324
Jim, let me me throw an additional element in that the administration has used to justify
this.

239
00:29:57,324 --> 00:30:08,352
ah They designated this Trende Aragua, this this uh gang as they've struck.

240
00:30:08,352 --> 00:30:11,354
They've said, well, they're a foreign terrorist organization.

241
00:30:11,354 --> 00:30:17,878
They've designated it, named it as a foreign terrorist organization and that it's being
controlled by Venezuela.

242
00:30:17,878 --> 00:30:21,020
Well, I've not seen very much

243
00:30:21,113 --> 00:30:22,894
evidence that convinces me of that.

244
00:30:22,894 --> 00:30:34,322
the but the important point here is that designating somebody a foreign terrorist
organization does not in and of itself justify the use of lethal force.

245
00:30:34,322 --> 00:30:38,414
um That is exactly right.

246
00:30:38,414 --> 00:30:42,087
And we're not a war with Trende Aragua.

247
00:30:42,087 --> 00:30:47,660
um What we are we we want to prevent drugs from coming into this country.

248
00:30:47,660 --> 00:30:50,586
We have the legal means by which we do it.

249
00:30:50,586 --> 00:30:57,079
the means we finance through appropriations to do this kind of thing.

250
00:30:57,299 --> 00:31:07,674
And that does not include sending sending reapers and predators over the Caribbean Sea to
take out uh take out stray drug boats.

251
00:31:08,366 --> 00:31:22,010
Yeah, wasn't there a time, I don't know, 20 years back when we went into Columbia with
some boots on the ground to help Columbia get rid of their cartel.

252
00:31:22,898 --> 00:31:23,709
right.

253
00:31:23,709 --> 00:31:27,121
We had troops on the ground there in a joint task force.

254
00:31:27,121 --> 00:31:31,554
uh That was a supporting task force.

255
00:31:31,554 --> 00:31:35,617
We were letting the Colombians actually do the hard work.

256
00:31:35,617 --> 00:31:39,790
We were providing support for that surveillance and things like that.

257
00:31:39,790 --> 00:31:41,190
And that was the situation.

258
00:31:41,190 --> 00:31:45,093
And Andy may remember, can add some color to this as well.

259
00:31:45,093 --> 00:31:50,637
It was pretty successful because Colombia was a hard nut to crack for a long time.

260
00:31:50,717 --> 00:31:52,508
And uh through

261
00:31:52,508 --> 00:32:06,172
encouragement to the nation and to working with their forces, the good forces, they
actually had some good results in stemming that flow of uh drugs to the United States.

262
00:32:06,821 --> 00:32:18,905
Do either one of you think or feel like that maybe this is Donald Trump's attempt to force
out President Maduro?

263
00:32:19,966 --> 00:32:36,631
Well, if it is, it is not working because if anything, is strengthening uh his hold on
that and making Maduro look like he's under attack by this bully, the United States,

264
00:32:36,872 --> 00:32:45,430
probably he's helping him gain support uh in Venezuela as opposed to loosening or forcing
him out.

265
00:32:45,430 --> 00:32:49,617
I have to tell you, Venezuela has one of the, you know,

266
00:32:49,617 --> 00:32:52,980
most significant oil reserves in the world.

267
00:32:52,980 --> 00:32:54,181
It's incredible.

268
00:32:54,181 --> 00:32:56,263
And yet some of the poorest people.

269
00:32:56,263 --> 00:33:03,288
So Madura and his government are thieves and, uh you know, kleptomaniacs.

270
00:33:03,288 --> 00:33:06,509
They are not worthy to be in power.

271
00:33:06,511 --> 00:33:11,655
And they're a real problem in the Western hemisphere and really in some ways the world.

272
00:33:11,655 --> 00:33:19,315
uh you know, shooting an open boat in open water really

273
00:33:19,315 --> 00:33:20,885
does not do it.

274
00:33:21,966 --> 00:33:29,838
even if you're claiming that it's a warning, uh you're warning him by killing people and
you're not really sure.

275
00:33:29,838 --> 00:33:33,569
There's no due process, no probable cause.

276
00:33:34,029 --> 00:33:43,512
If they have intelligence on it, if I were them and they'd done this, I would be bringing
that intelligence out and proving to the public that these people were actually who they

277
00:33:43,512 --> 00:33:44,652
say they were.

278
00:33:44,672 --> 00:33:47,653
The problem is that all the evidence is destroyed now.

279
00:33:47,653 --> 00:33:49,243
uh

280
00:33:49,243 --> 00:33:51,491
No, I don't know that that can ever happen.

281
00:33:52,115 --> 00:33:53,667
Kinda like the Epstein.

282
00:33:54,726 --> 00:33:55,940
I'm sorry, go ahead.

283
00:33:56,145 --> 00:33:57,634
Now go ahead, General.

284
00:33:57,827 --> 00:34:16,302
Picking up on an important theme that Jamie has hit upon, uh the whole purpose of
international law is an international law of war and law of armed conflict is to ensure

285
00:34:16,302 --> 00:34:21,285
that we can return to a state of peace as quickly as possible.

286
00:34:21,366 --> 00:34:27,196
First of all, there is no ongoing active war.

287
00:34:27,196 --> 00:34:32,816
going on with regard to Venezuela and we're not, I don't know that we're looking to start
one or not.

288
00:34:32,816 --> 00:34:35,599
That's way above my pay grade.

289
00:34:36,041 --> 00:34:38,757
But the important thing is we conduct our...

290
00:34:38,757 --> 00:34:42,184
much, there's not much above your pay grade.

291
00:34:43,403 --> 00:34:54,747
Well, but the important thing is the reason we follow the law, the reason we follow the
laws of armed conflict and the laws of war um is because A, that's what America does.

292
00:34:54,747 --> 00:35:03,491
But B, when we violate it, what Admiral Barnett says is absolutely true.

293
00:35:03,491 --> 00:35:07,193
It hardens the resolve against the United States.

294
00:35:07,193 --> 00:35:11,274
When we prosecute our and I know uh

295
00:35:11,357 --> 00:35:22,054
the current Secretary of Defense uh was involved with a couple of the Special Forces uh
criminal actions in Afghanistan.

296
00:35:22,054 --> 00:35:31,860
um And he was just outraged because people were being prosecuted for shooting civilians,
for murdering civilians.

297
00:35:31,860 --> 00:35:33,121
Well, you know what?

298
00:35:33,121 --> 00:35:37,003
That is a violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

299
00:35:37,023 --> 00:35:41,546
And that um those uh

300
00:35:42,098 --> 00:35:53,682
courts martial went forward not just because a court martial convening authority said so,
but because the unit itself was outraged because that's not the way America operates.

301
00:35:53,682 --> 00:35:55,793
We operate within the boundaries of the law.

302
00:35:55,793 --> 00:35:58,944
We don't operate outside of the boundaries of the law.

303
00:35:58,944 --> 00:36:04,426
What my concern about the Venezuela situation is we're operating outside the boundaries of
the law.

304
00:36:05,446 --> 00:36:11,304
And you think that these attacks are a violation of human rights laws, correct?

305
00:36:12,648 --> 00:36:13,508
Okay.

306
00:36:14,197 --> 00:36:24,466
And the key thing about human rights law is you don't kill, the military does not kill
civilians.

307
00:36:24,707 --> 00:36:26,569
And these people are civilians.

308
00:36:26,569 --> 00:36:28,270
They may be bad civilians.

309
00:36:28,270 --> 00:36:32,474
We may not like them, but we don't kill civilians.

310
00:36:33,757 --> 00:36:35,947
Kind of like free speech, isn't it?

311
00:36:36,264 --> 00:36:37,509
Yes it is.

312
00:36:40,243 --> 00:36:40,964
Ugh.

313
00:36:40,964 --> 00:36:53,248
do know that in August, oh the State Adjustment Department increased the reward for
Maduro's arrest to $50 million.

314
00:36:53,389 --> 00:37:02,592
So we know that he has, uh the Venezuelan president has a $50 million bounty on his head.

315
00:37:04,008 --> 00:37:05,764
oh I could give him some advice.

316
00:37:05,764 --> 00:37:08,034
Don't get in a little boat and head out.

317
00:37:08,034 --> 00:37:08,806
Right.

318
00:37:11,385 --> 00:37:15,410
Exactly, ah

319
00:37:15,410 --> 00:37:23,976
How far ah down does South Come, does it cover all of South America?

320
00:37:24,472 --> 00:37:32,092
It covers all of South America and basically, Andy will have to remind me on this.

321
00:37:32,092 --> 00:37:38,612
think it's everything really south of Mexico, the Caribbean and all of central and South
America.

322
00:37:38,672 --> 00:37:43,772
Mexico, I think is considered part of NorthCOM, Northern Command.

323
00:37:44,072 --> 00:37:45,623
Where is it headquartered?

324
00:37:47,190 --> 00:37:50,527
Uh, Southcom is in Mayport, Florida.

325
00:37:51,891 --> 00:37:57,719
Yeah, it's in it's in, I've been to the Southcom headquarters.

326
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:02,945
It's maybe, it's in, no, Centcom is in Tampa.

327
00:38:02,945 --> 00:38:05,088
um you know what?

328
00:38:05,088 --> 00:38:07,450
Well, I think it's down in the.

329
00:38:07,460 --> 00:38:11,123
that fourth fleet is in Mayport or Jacksonville, Florida.

330
00:38:11,123 --> 00:38:12,133
I'm not sure about

331
00:38:12,133 --> 00:38:15,581
this I think Southcom is based down in the Miami area.

332
00:38:15,964 --> 00:38:16,885
Yes.

333
00:38:17,609 --> 00:38:18,002
Right.

334
00:38:18,002 --> 00:38:20,153
Okay, great.

335
00:38:20,193 --> 00:38:30,891
Well, I am certainly in awe of both of you and the knowledge that you've imparted on this
particular subject.

336
00:38:30,891 --> 00:38:32,792
ah

337
00:38:35,012 --> 00:38:36,883
I'm also interested in.

338
00:38:36,883 --> 00:38:51,661
the South China Sea and China's ah claim to that territory and every once in a while, more
frequently lately.

339
00:38:51,661 --> 00:39:05,504
they fly some of their jets pretty close to ours or they'll have one of their ships cross
ah diagonally in front of one of our ships and come close to a naval accident.

340
00:39:05,504 --> 00:39:07,186
But fortunately, it's not.

341
00:39:07,186 --> 00:39:09,567
ah

342
00:39:11,247 --> 00:39:13,636
Are they violating international law?

343
00:39:13,879 --> 00:39:15,539
Oh, absolutely.

344
00:39:15,819 --> 00:39:19,659
So I've likened what the Chinese are doing in the South China Sea.

345
00:39:19,659 --> 00:39:24,459
We don't have a map or a chart of that, but I encourage people to look at the South China
Sea.

346
00:39:24,459 --> 00:39:31,599
does say China, but it borders on a lot of Southeastern Asia and the Philippines.

347
00:39:32,099 --> 00:39:42,279
And China has been claiming it based on an old British chart that they did a little dashed
line for some reason on it called the non-dashed line.

348
00:39:42,279 --> 00:39:43,576
Or some people now call it the

349
00:39:43,576 --> 00:39:54,776
10- line and that is the sole legal basis for which they claim the entire area and It's
there's not as much death.

350
00:39:54,776 --> 00:40:06,716
I don't know if I've heard any deaths going on there But it is a grab the same way that
Putin is grabbing Ukraine there We don't get this much in the United States, but on a

351
00:40:06,716 --> 00:40:12,436
daily basis there are incidents at sea between the Chinese

352
00:40:12,459 --> 00:40:26,018
and the Filipinos, the Vietnamese, they'll hit, they'll shoot water cannons, they'll
collide with fishing boats, with uh mineral excavation boats, uh numerous things like

353
00:40:26,018 --> 00:40:26,529
that.

354
00:40:26,529 --> 00:40:34,914
Of course, we know that they built islands, they've improved islands out there in
contravention of uh international law.

355
00:40:35,175 --> 00:40:36,906
And they've been ruled against on this.

356
00:40:36,906 --> 00:40:41,672
This has been brought up in international courts and they've been...

357
00:40:41,672 --> 00:40:43,615
They've lost, the Chinese have lost.

358
00:40:43,615 --> 00:40:46,559
uh Andy, what would you say?

359
00:40:46,979 --> 00:40:53,703
uh I would say that it's probably the single most important shipping lane in the world.

360
00:40:53,703 --> 00:41:01,387
uh It is key to commerce in the United States, commerce in Europe, as well as commerce in
China.

361
00:41:01,387 --> 00:41:11,072
And the problem is that China has uh just put its elbows up and said uh they've relied
upon the nine dash line.

362
00:41:11,072 --> 00:41:16,803
They've also relied upon these, uh they've put bases on these

363
00:41:16,803 --> 00:41:26,191
uh islands that they've that they've constructed so that they can exert influence and
control over the South China Sea.

364
00:41:26,191 --> 00:41:32,896
I'm surprised we haven't had more uh upsets than we have that we have had.

365
00:41:32,896 --> 00:41:42,425
uh They seem to be a little quiet right now, but there is, I think, as as Jamie indicated,
there is probably a lot of activity going on over there.

366
00:41:42,425 --> 00:41:44,146
That's a fairly low level.

367
00:41:44,146 --> 00:41:45,803
It is definitely

368
00:41:45,803 --> 00:41:52,851
an area that could serve as a flashpoint for armed conflict between us and China.

369
00:41:53,530 --> 00:41:54,402
You mentioned it.

370
00:41:54,402 --> 00:42:06,434
II analysts and aficionados out there, I when you look at where the Japanese went uh in
the run up to the American entry into World War II, that's where they had it.

371
00:42:06,434 --> 00:42:19,003
They went right down the South China Sea and tried to grab all of the straits, all the way
through to Indonesia to grab this because of the importance of those sea lines, those sea

372
00:42:19,003 --> 00:42:20,593
lines of communication.

373
00:42:23,142 --> 00:42:23,938
Uh.

374
00:42:26,169 --> 00:42:37,028
I had a question ah for the that the Major General mentioned, and I can't think of it
right now.

375
00:42:38,310 --> 00:42:38,770
Is it?

376
00:42:38,770 --> 00:42:41,312
Oh, I know what it is.

377
00:42:42,113 --> 00:42:43,153
Is it?

378
00:42:44,175 --> 00:42:49,639
What what do you think the reason that they want Taiwan?

379
00:42:49,799 --> 00:42:54,363
Is it because of the ah technology?

380
00:42:55,539 --> 00:43:02,681
Or is it just they want to take back Taiwan?

381
00:43:03,956 --> 00:43:06,627
My answer is yes to both.

382
00:43:07,107 --> 00:43:10,048
I think there's a real historical element there.

383
00:43:10,048 --> 00:43:15,331
um And there's also the whole whole technology.

384
00:43:15,331 --> 00:43:20,853
And Taiwan is a very, very it's a small country, but it's a very, very productive one.

385
00:43:20,853 --> 00:43:30,717
um And it has thrived for so many years ever since the um it really was was established
right after World War Two.

386
00:43:30,717 --> 00:43:33,558
um So I think they want both.

387
00:43:35,329 --> 00:43:41,301
And I'm afraid it'll go the way, if they ever get Taiwan back, it'll go the same way as
Hong Kong.

388
00:43:41,321 --> 00:43:49,963
Hong Kong was just a jewel of the East oh and uh they've effectively ruined it now.

389
00:43:49,963 --> 00:43:54,324
was nowhere near as productive as it was 20 years ago.

390
00:43:54,465 --> 00:44:02,996
And going to General Turley's point about kind of the history of it, they do see this as
historically theirs.

391
00:44:02,996 --> 00:44:08,433
And I think that's very akin to another dictator, Putin, wanting to get Ukraine back.

392
00:44:08,433 --> 00:44:16,312
And really the heart of Russian culture actually started in the area around Kiev.

393
00:44:16,312 --> 00:44:22,619
And so he feels like he wants that back uh as part of the ancestral Russian empire.

394
00:44:23,621 --> 00:44:25,183
Yeah, that's a...

395
00:44:25,447 --> 00:44:41,366
is why what goes what happens in Ukraine and United States posture with regard to Ukraine
is so important and has so many ramifications for what goes on in the South China Sea with

396
00:44:41,366 --> 00:44:42,797
respect to Taiwan.

397
00:44:42,797 --> 00:44:44,528
It all ties together.

398
00:44:45,656 --> 00:44:56,527
And Jamie, since you brought up uh President Putin, what do you think his, how do you
think he fits into this equation with Venezuela?

399
00:44:58,443 --> 00:45:09,689
Well, so there's an interesting book that has been written by one of the great authors
that I think are out there and an Apple bomb and it's called Autocracy Inc.

400
00:45:09,969 --> 00:45:21,646
And, you know, she talks in the book about how we have this kind of cartoon image in our
minds about what a dictator is, you know, he's, he's got a uh uniform and he stretched

401
00:45:21,646 --> 00:45:23,780
around like he'll do change stuff like that.

402
00:45:23,780 --> 00:45:26,259
said, that's not the way it is anymore.

403
00:45:26,259 --> 00:45:27,383
These are.

404
00:45:27,383 --> 00:45:31,385
corporate giants who are all working together.

405
00:45:31,666 --> 00:45:34,098
And we see a lot of that going on.

406
00:45:34,098 --> 00:45:50,180
So uh Putin and uh Xi Jinping, but also to the degree that uh Nindra Modi in India is now
more of a, it's an electoral democracy, mean, an electoral dictatorship, but kind of

407
00:45:50,180 --> 00:45:52,181
acting with dictatorial policies.

408
00:45:52,181 --> 00:45:54,422
They're trying to come together.

409
00:45:54,872 --> 00:45:59,473
They're all interoperating with each other.

410
00:46:00,073 --> 00:46:03,954
so Venezuela is one of those that's kind of aligned that way.

411
00:46:03,954 --> 00:46:15,937
um And we see the American rule-based order that's existed for over 80 years now starting
to break apart.

412
00:46:16,017 --> 00:46:19,025
And I don't think that that's gonna be really good for America.

413
00:46:19,025 --> 00:46:23,569
It's not gonna be good for a lot of what we used to call the free world.

414
00:46:23,677 --> 00:46:24,491
Mm-hmm.

415
00:46:25,563 --> 00:46:33,721
What do you, this question for both of you, what do you think the world's opinion of
America is today?

416
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:44,785
Well, uh Andy, uh you need to ask before you answer that, ask him this before or after
President Trump's speech to the UN this week.

417
00:46:45,377 --> 00:46:46,329
He

418
00:46:47,528 --> 00:46:50,467
was gonna ask about that, but go ahead ahead.

419
00:46:51,060 --> 00:46:56,483
I think we are far from, you know, making friends around the world.

420
00:46:56,483 --> 00:47:13,172
We are alienating people with our tariffs and also our on-again, off-again tariffs and our
denigration of other countries and various institutions, our flouting of international

421
00:47:13,172 --> 00:47:13,753
law.

422
00:47:13,753 --> 00:47:17,275
oh I don't think we're making friends.

423
00:47:17,275 --> 00:47:18,555
I think we're losing.

424
00:47:19,122 --> 00:47:21,934
Unfortunately, I think that that's true.

425
00:47:22,355 --> 00:47:28,941
I'll tell you, one of the biggest things that I think we're losing is the trust of our
allies.

426
00:47:30,163 --> 00:47:41,374
After World War Two, the United States worked with our allies in Europe to form NATO, um
and that was to be opposed to a further Russian.

427
00:47:41,374 --> 00:47:43,576
um

428
00:47:45,308 --> 00:47:48,310
influence, the spread of Russian influence in Europe.

429
00:47:48,310 --> 00:47:54,154
Since that time, we've engaged with a number of other oh partnerships and alliances.

430
00:47:54,154 --> 00:48:01,399
And again, what has been the basis of all of this is that we are the United States.

431
00:48:01,399 --> 00:48:03,200
We will do the right thing.

432
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:06,362
We will follow the law and you can trust us.

433
00:48:06,362 --> 00:48:15,078
What really concerns me now is we're losing the trust of our allies um and we're losing
the trust of our allies because of

434
00:48:15,136 --> 00:48:19,929
tariff policy, because of uh support policy.

435
00:48:19,929 --> 00:48:26,924
How many times have we gone back and forth in terms of support for NATO, support for uh
Ukraine?

436
00:48:26,924 --> 00:48:42,413
uh And America, I think in the eyes of many now, cannot be trusted to be looking out for
the interests of each of those nations as well as its own.

437
00:48:43,594 --> 00:48:44,935
Does that make sense?

438
00:48:46,034 --> 00:48:47,812
Yes, absolutely.

439
00:48:47,812 --> 00:48:58,237
too that President Trump has denigrated international uh institutions such as NATO and UN.

440
00:48:58,237 --> 00:49:08,482
And I don't know, and General Charlie may know, if he can unilaterally pull the United
States out of the UN.

441
00:49:08,523 --> 00:49:10,724
I hope that's not true.

442
00:49:10,724 --> 00:49:16,967
But as we've seen with his actions on various agencies in the United States government, he
could effectively do it.

443
00:49:17,045 --> 00:49:22,739
which would nearly cause the collapse of one of the great institutions.

444
00:49:22,739 --> 00:49:24,040
It's not perfect.

445
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:25,760
It needs reform.

446
00:49:25,921 --> 00:49:28,462
It's not as effective as it can be in every place.

447
00:49:28,462 --> 00:49:36,337
And there've been some abuses, but it is one shining uh area where the nations can come
together and reason.

448
00:49:37,319 --> 00:49:41,381
And I think that is the key to the benefit of the UN.

449
00:49:41,381 --> 00:49:45,754
It's not that they're going to send blue helmets in as peacekeepers or anything like that.

450
00:49:45,754 --> 00:49:56,230
Blue helmets, by the way, refer to UN sponsored forces that often will go in and
participate in ceasefires and those type of things.

451
00:49:56,230 --> 00:50:02,854
It's the fact that it's a forum where the nations of the world can come together and that
they can talk.

452
00:50:03,094 --> 00:50:04,895
And it may not.

453
00:50:04,933 --> 00:50:10,768
It may not be perfect, as Admiral Barnett says, but the important thing is it's there.

454
00:50:10,768 --> 00:50:15,912
Where the United States is undermining it is we've withdrawn from the World Health
Organization.

455
00:50:15,912 --> 00:50:22,878
We have withdrawn from four or five other key United Nations organizations.

456
00:50:22,878 --> 00:50:29,083
And that, to my mind, causes me great concern because we need to be at the table.

457
00:50:29,104 --> 00:50:29,884
It's important.

458
00:50:29,884 --> 00:50:33,585
And it's not important for us to be at the table because we're good guys.

459
00:50:33,585 --> 00:50:41,223
It's important for us to be the table for the protection of United States interests here
and around the world.

460
00:50:44,113 --> 00:50:59,533
What is going to be the effect of maybe, I guess, the rest of the world recognizing a
Palestinian state and President Trump denying that?

461
00:51:01,361 --> 00:51:04,413
kind of leaves us alone is what it seems to me.

462
00:51:06,793 --> 00:51:11,465
I think we're increasingly isolated on that score.

463
00:51:11,465 --> 00:51:17,727
The whole Middle East issue, the Gaza issue is heartbreaking.

464
00:51:18,268 --> 00:51:19,688
I blame Hamas.

465
00:51:19,688 --> 00:51:26,791
They're a vicious, vile organization who don't give a damn about Palestinians.

466
00:51:26,791 --> 00:51:29,312
All they care about is amassing their own partner.

467
00:51:29,312 --> 00:51:35,865
And they are to be blamed for all of the misery that's been vested upon Gaza.

468
00:51:38,323 --> 00:51:44,666
And this goes way back to 1948 when they partitioned that whole particular area.

469
00:51:44,666 --> 00:51:49,999
um We had an opportunity to create a two-state solution at that time.

470
00:51:49,999 --> 00:51:52,630
Unfortunately, we couldn't.

471
00:51:52,771 --> 00:51:56,372
And I think we're paying the price for it in the end.

472
00:51:56,593 --> 00:52:01,015
The United States position, it backs Israel, which is a strong ally of ours.

473
00:52:01,015 --> 00:52:02,396
There's no doubt about that.

474
00:52:02,396 --> 00:52:05,497
uh But I think that

475
00:52:05,497 --> 00:52:17,580
It's important for us to exercise our influence over Israel to see how we can ameliorate
the situation, because I think there are lots of positive things that can be done.

476
00:52:17,580 --> 00:52:21,802
um But it's difficult.

477
00:52:21,802 --> 00:52:33,205
quite honestly, I think our allies are kind of saying that they will recognize a
Palestinian state mainly to make the point that we've got to move forward.

478
00:52:33,205 --> 00:52:34,105
We can't.

479
00:52:34,105 --> 00:52:35,810
sit with what we have now.

480
00:52:35,810 --> 00:52:37,692
Admiral Barnett, would you agree?

481
00:52:38,325 --> 00:52:39,395
I would agree.

482
00:52:39,395 --> 00:52:42,736
you know, here's, here's the difficult thing for America.

483
00:52:42,736 --> 00:52:56,640
America has always supported Israel, but when we equate supporting Israel was supporting,
uh, prime minister Netanyahu, it starts to get a little more difficult because he is, you

484
00:52:56,640 --> 00:53:03,062
know, you know, waging a war, uh, in a way that is very troubling, very destructive.

485
00:53:03,062 --> 00:53:06,943
And it's not clear what the end purpose is at first.

486
00:53:06,943 --> 00:53:09,744
He said he wasn't going to occupy Gaza.

487
00:53:09,744 --> 00:53:12,465
Now he is going to occupy Gaza.

488
00:53:12,465 --> 00:53:16,247
Israel had signed on to the concept of a two state solution.

489
00:53:16,247 --> 00:53:27,812
Netanyahu, over the time that he's been in office, I can't remember how long it is, but it
seems like it's two decades now, has in essence been doing everything to keep and make a

490
00:53:27,812 --> 00:53:30,293
two state solution impossible.

491
00:53:30,293 --> 00:53:36,375
So the sad thing about it is I don't see a good solution on the horizon.

492
00:53:36,375 --> 00:53:42,915
Just like Putin doesn't want peace in Ukraine, he's just not really interested in that.

493
00:53:42,915 --> 00:53:45,715
I don't think Netanyahu is interested in peace right now.

494
00:53:45,715 --> 00:53:50,035
He's got purposes in Gaza, which include occupation.

495
00:53:50,075 --> 00:53:55,175
And I think that's just going to prolong the misery to Gaza.

496
00:53:55,175 --> 00:54:06,001
And so, as General Turley said, the actions of our allies in recognizing the Palestinian
state, I think is to goad them, say, look,

497
00:54:06,001 --> 00:54:14,798
We need to come to some kind, we need to have some kind of recognition of the humanity of
the Palestinians, even as we say, the evil of Hamas.

498
00:54:15,109 --> 00:54:34,984
But doesn't Netanyahu, it seems to me that Netanyahu has been continuing this more for his
political gain because he, ah if the war was ended today, it's my understanding that he

499
00:54:34,984 --> 00:54:44,707
would probably be indicted for ah what he did back to the justices.

500
00:54:45,039 --> 00:54:49,564
the justice courts or whatever ah years back.

501
00:54:50,807 --> 00:54:54,551
And he was under, I think he was under indictment.

502
00:54:54,775 --> 00:54:56,615
Yeah, he was under indictment.

503
00:54:56,615 --> 00:55:02,655
I think, I don't know about ending the war, but I think it's clear that he lost his
coalition and was out of office.

504
00:55:02,655 --> 00:55:13,175
He could be prosecuted again and his coalition seems to want the obliteration of the
Palestinians in Gaza.

505
00:55:14,896 --> 00:55:28,086
I don't want to get too far off the subjects, everything, but I'm always, I try to ask
this question with as many experts and leaders as I can.

506
00:55:28,968 --> 00:55:39,936
And the question for both of you is, is the United States becoming a authoritarian
government?

507
00:55:41,922 --> 00:55:43,410
Do you want to that one?

508
00:55:43,410 --> 00:55:44,543
General work.

509
00:55:45,901 --> 00:55:47,942
I know that's a loaded question, but...

510
00:55:47,942 --> 00:55:51,023
It is a loaded question.

511
00:55:51,604 --> 00:55:54,646
It depends on how you define authoritarian.

512
00:55:55,687 --> 00:56:03,531
The foundation for uh the United States of America is the US Constitution.

513
00:56:04,552 --> 00:56:12,736
Embedded in that is the concept of an equal, three equal branches of government.

514
00:56:13,297 --> 00:56:16,278
The Congress, which is under Article 1,

515
00:56:16,286 --> 00:56:21,222
president under Article 2 and the judiciary under Article 3.

516
00:56:23,112 --> 00:56:33,305
founders were very specific in terms of responsibilities between those three to make sure
that one didn't predominate.

517
00:56:33,305 --> 00:56:48,699
um Unfortunately, and it depends on how you define authoritarianism, if you define
authoritarianism as the executive is preeminent over the other two branches, then I think

518
00:56:48,699 --> 00:56:52,250
I get very concerned that we're heading in that direction and

519
00:56:52,255 --> 00:56:58,840
uh and Applebaum's book is very clear on how that kind of thing can happen.

520
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:07,507
What worries me is that Congress has ceded its power, a lot of its power, to, in many
different areas, to the executive.

521
00:57:07,507 --> 00:57:21,576
uh What worries me is that every time that there's a decision against uh the current
administration in court, what they, you know, the judge involved seems to be, uh

522
00:57:21,576 --> 00:57:25,328
characterizes a wide-eyed radical, leftist radical.

523
00:57:25,328 --> 00:57:30,940
When that is not the truth at all, we're a country of laws.

524
00:57:30,940 --> 00:57:32,771
We're not a country of men.

525
00:57:32,971 --> 00:57:48,508
And I think that the whole concept of a preeminent or what they call the unitary executive
theory for the presidency, um that concept undermines the whole

526
00:57:48,742 --> 00:57:55,244
genius of the Constitution which is balancing each one of our uh branches of government.

527
00:57:57,191 --> 00:57:58,522
And I would agree entirely.

528
00:57:58,522 --> 00:58:14,374
And if you look at some of the books uh like Tim Snyder's On Tyranny and Ann Applebaum's
works, Twilight of Democracies and Autocracy, Inc., you can almost have a bingo card of

529
00:58:14,374 --> 00:58:15,065
what's happening.

530
00:58:15,065 --> 00:58:27,104
So suppression of uh democratic institutions such as the courts, suppression of the free
press, prosecution of journalists.

531
00:58:28,331 --> 00:58:36,165
using the courts against your enemies, disobeying various laws and morays.

532
00:58:36,165 --> 00:58:50,203
So the concept that, I remember all the other previous administrations, was this, since
Nixon at least, there was this limitation on the communications between the White House

533
00:58:50,203 --> 00:58:54,906
and the attorney general, the White House and the Department of Justice.

534
00:58:54,958 --> 00:58:56,178
That's broken down.

535
00:58:56,178 --> 00:59:03,180
As a matter of fact, I mean, he tweets instructions to the attorney general now on who to
prosecute.

536
00:59:03,180 --> 00:59:09,042
As all of those start to break down, you can start looking at where else this has
happened.

537
00:59:09,042 --> 00:59:17,604
So whether it's India, whether it's uh Germany and things like that, you start, you don't
go directly to dictatorship.

538
00:59:17,604 --> 00:59:21,925
You can go to kind of to an electoral dictatorship.

539
00:59:21,925 --> 00:59:23,836
That's the way it was with Hitler.

540
00:59:23,836 --> 00:59:24,728
Hitler

541
00:59:24,728 --> 00:59:32,041
was actually asked, they gained shares in the Bundestag, they got a certain number people
and he was asked to form a government.

542
00:59:32,041 --> 00:59:38,584
And he immediately started undermining all of the democratic institutions, including the
courts.

543
00:59:38,584 --> 00:59:41,024
so, are we autocrat?

544
00:59:41,024 --> 00:59:44,906
Well, we're certainly more autocratic than we were a year ago.

545
00:59:45,374 --> 00:59:58,249
That kind of brought us all the way back around to why I had my question about the
legality of blowing up these Venezuela boats.

546
00:59:58,249 --> 00:59:59,810
ah

547
01:00:04,420 --> 01:00:06,983
It just comes back to me every time I think about it.

548
01:00:06,983 --> 01:00:14,012
ah Last week, the week before, in a press conference, the president said, I am the
president.

549
01:00:14,012 --> 01:00:15,954
I can do anything I want.

550
01:00:18,238 --> 01:00:19,102
Which.

551
01:00:20,209 --> 01:00:22,229
for him, that is not true.

552
01:00:22,550 --> 01:00:26,682
But the question is, how do you effectively counter that?

553
01:00:26,682 --> 01:00:36,396
And that's where the courts have had the courage to stand up and do it, despite being
publicly chastised for doing it.

554
01:00:36,396 --> 01:00:43,459
There's another important element that's going on that I think ties in with the
authoritarian theme.

555
01:00:43,459 --> 01:00:46,720
The Department of Justice, they

556
01:00:46,768 --> 01:00:53,251
have rules and regulations about how they conduct their business.

557
01:00:53,291 --> 01:01:04,436
You find out about a crime, and then you find out about the criminal that's being turned
on its head in that you identify a quote criminal and then try to find a crime associated

558
01:01:04,436 --> 01:01:05,757
with that person.

559
01:01:05,757 --> 01:01:11,399
That's what worries me a great deal uh about things going on.

560
01:01:11,399 --> 01:01:14,010
uh Also,

561
01:01:14,518 --> 01:01:26,576
When I worked at the Department of Justice, one of the things that they always told me was
the fact that you always need to be completely truthful with the court because the courts

562
01:01:26,576 --> 01:01:33,271
rely upon the Department of Justice being open, honest, and above board.

563
01:01:33,271 --> 01:01:37,954
And unfortunately, that whole presumption of regularity

564
01:01:39,503 --> 01:01:43,351
due to the conduct of the current Department of Justice is now gone.

565
01:01:43,351 --> 01:01:44,793
And that breaks my heart.

566
01:01:44,793 --> 01:01:46,095
It really does.

567
01:01:49,015 --> 01:01:54,859
It breaks the heart, I'm sure, of an awful lot of Americans.

568
01:01:54,859 --> 01:02:05,616
Let me ask each of you, if you were to recommend a for everybody to read, what book would
you recommend at this point?

569
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:17,989
So the two, the two that I've mentioned, there are lot of great ones out there right now,
uh but uh Professor Timothy Snyder wrote a book on tyranny.

570
01:02:17,989 --> 01:02:29,979
And the thing that I like about it is that it goes by point by point, you know, what the
tyrant does, what the would be autocrat would be, and then what we can do.

571
01:02:29,979 --> 01:02:33,561
So it kind of is an action to that.

572
01:02:35,003 --> 01:02:36,584
And Apple bombs.

573
01:02:36,704 --> 01:02:38,306
Autocracy Inc.

574
01:02:38,306 --> 01:02:51,297
it gives us a much clearer view, kind of updates our view on that we're not just dealing
with one autocrat, we're dealing with a worldwide network of autocrats.

575
01:02:51,297 --> 01:03:02,007
I don't want to sound like the old James Bond chaos or uh any of other type of criminal
organizations, but there's a parallel to it.

576
01:03:02,007 --> 01:03:03,064
uh

577
01:03:03,064 --> 01:03:09,378
you know, that's very concerning because it means they're more organized and more uh
interdependent and self-supportive.

578
01:03:09,378 --> 01:03:12,764
So those will be the two books that I would recommend to you.

579
01:03:12,884 --> 01:03:13,984
Great.

580
01:03:14,044 --> 01:03:14,749
And in general?

581
01:03:14,749 --> 01:03:15,049
one.

582
01:03:15,049 --> 01:03:22,614
uh Ruth Ben-Guyatt is a history professor at New York University.

583
01:03:22,735 --> 01:03:29,361
She is the author of uh a book that I think came out within the past year called
Strongmen,

584
01:03:29,361 --> 01:03:32,102
It's from uh Mussolini to the present.

585
01:03:32,102 --> 01:03:39,805
uh She does an excellent job with uh highlighting ah how this has developed over the
years.

586
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:43,338
I've got.

587
01:03:43,338 --> 01:03:48,510
was the name of it, just to reemphasize, was Strong Men, right?

588
01:03:48,734 --> 01:03:51,918
Yes, strong men from Mussolini to the present.

589
01:03:53,394 --> 01:03:56,899
General, I've got one last question and it's yours.

590
01:03:56,899 --> 01:03:59,328
ah

591
01:04:01,020 --> 01:04:14,724
listening to you and Jamie, ah the blowing up of these boats in the Caribbean appears or
at least sounds to me like it's not a legal action.

592
01:04:19,067 --> 01:04:35,554
who can file a lawsuit or who would have standing to challenge that in a lawsuit because
somebody had to approve this.

593
01:04:35,554 --> 01:04:48,528
I just can't imagine that it did not get run by some JAG officer somewhere ah that either
ignored it.

594
01:04:48,528 --> 01:04:50,253
or signed off on it or something.

595
01:04:50,253 --> 01:04:57,371
ah So who would have standing to challenge this?

596
01:04:59,389 --> 01:05:00,830
That's a very good question.

597
01:05:00,830 --> 01:05:07,752
think the first people who would have standing would be the families of the people killed
in the boats.

598
01:05:07,752 --> 01:05:19,156
ah But that's filing an action against the United States is a long, costly process, and
it's not very practical.

599
01:05:19,156 --> 01:05:27,299
um In terms of other people, see, the thing is, to have standing, really have to show a
harm.

600
01:05:27,591 --> 01:05:28,427
Right.

601
01:05:29,371 --> 01:05:30,351
it's going to be difficult.

602
01:05:30,351 --> 01:05:33,775
This is why I think Congress really needs to look at it.

603
01:05:33,775 --> 01:05:41,771
And this is why my colleagues in their op-ed that they filed yesterday on the Hill have
said, Congress, please take a look at this.

604
01:05:41,771 --> 01:05:50,798
uh Because it's really an issue of authorities between Congress and the executive.

605
01:05:50,798 --> 01:05:57,824
uh So unfortunately, I'm not sure there's a judicial remedy involved here.

606
01:05:58,776 --> 01:06:00,996
It certainly wouldn't be a good one.

607
01:06:00,996 --> 01:06:07,456
mean, like I said, it's just the burden on some poor family in Venezuela.

608
01:06:07,696 --> 01:06:15,736
And then the fact that they would, you know, might run into the thing, well, was your
family member actually running drugs?

609
01:06:15,736 --> 01:06:26,976
But I suppose that you could follow wrongful death action in Venezuela, get a judgment,
but then I don't know how you'd be able to enforce that judgment in Venezuela.

610
01:06:27,972 --> 01:06:29,625
Or whether you'd want to even try.

611
01:06:29,625 --> 01:06:33,000
Because you might not come back.

612
01:06:33,333 --> 01:06:41,755
and Jim, you've hit on one of the things that concerns me is, what is the accountability
for this?

613
01:06:41,915 --> 01:06:44,336
This seems unlawful.

614
01:06:44,392 --> 01:06:50,618
The administration is not coming forth with evidence or a legal basis for the action.

615
01:06:50,618 --> 01:06:59,370
uh And there doesn't, unless the Congress investigates it and has some kind of oversight,

616
01:06:59,492 --> 01:07:00,773
to bring out accountability.

617
01:07:00,773 --> 01:07:06,900
uh think it just not only remains unaccounted for, but it also can be repeated.

618
01:07:07,726 --> 01:07:09,700
I'm sure it'll be repeated.

619
01:07:10,043 --> 01:07:15,296
just, I don't, I don't trust what's going on.

620
01:07:16,070 --> 01:07:20,909
This is why it's important for Congress to step in and examine this.

621
01:07:21,752 --> 01:07:23,855
Because that's the counterbalance.

622
01:07:24,194 --> 01:07:28,914
That may be a place for us to end on that too, is that that's what really needs to happen
next.

623
01:07:28,914 --> 01:07:29,697
Yeah.

624
01:07:30,197 --> 01:07:30,917
Absolutely.

625
01:07:30,917 --> 01:07:31,398
Thank you.

626
01:07:31,398 --> 01:07:35,803
ah Major General Turley, thank you so much.

627
01:07:35,803 --> 01:07:39,717
ah Jamie Barnett, ah thank you so much again.

628
01:07:39,717 --> 01:07:41,549
It's good to see you.

629
01:07:41,549 --> 01:07:44,302
ah But this has been great.

630
01:07:44,302 --> 01:07:48,997
And we do want to maybe in a few months, maybe follow up again with you guys.

631
01:07:48,997 --> 01:07:53,051
ah Jim, what do you got to close us out with?

632
01:07:53,416 --> 01:08:05,979
ah The only thing I've got to close us out with is to those uh who viewing this and have
enjoyed it, I hope that you've learned something.

633
01:08:05,979 --> 01:08:10,521
That's the purpose of what we're doing is to try to educate people.

634
01:08:11,081 --> 01:08:16,102
And when we're doing this, it costs money.

635
01:08:16,302 --> 01:08:22,650
So if you've got a few extra bucks in your pocket, David can tell you.

636
01:08:22,650 --> 01:08:24,322
where you can send them.

637
01:08:24,743 --> 01:08:33,586
And David and I would be very appreciative because at this point, it's kind of David and I
and a couple of other people that are sponsoring this.

638
01:08:33,586 --> 01:08:39,854
So David, your, do your sick and tell them where to send the money.

639
01:08:40,605 --> 01:08:41,525
Absolutely.

640
01:08:41,525 --> 01:08:44,067
oh We do appreciate you listening.

641
01:08:44,067 --> 01:08:45,887
We appreciate you watching.

642
01:08:45,887 --> 01:08:50,219
We do ask that you subscribe and yes to be to subscribe.

643
01:08:50,219 --> 01:08:51,730
It is free.

644
01:08:51,730 --> 01:09:06,196
Now you can donate uh to the the podcast at our website which is mshappenings at excuse me
mshappenings.org.

645
01:09:06,196 --> 01:09:09,617
Now you can also uh donate at

646
01:09:09,897 --> 01:09:24,449
our cash app, is the at, excuse me, the cash app is a dollar sign, MS Happenings, and also
on PayPal, which is the at sign, uh MS Happenings.

647
01:09:24,449 --> 01:09:37,400
oh So, and also you can see this in the email at mshappenings1 at gmail.com, that's MS
Happenings and the number one, at gmail.com.

648
01:09:37,400 --> 01:09:38,547
We would love.

649
01:09:38,547 --> 01:09:39,777
to hear from you.

650
01:09:39,777 --> 01:09:41,840
We would love to hear what you think about this.

651
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:48,146
We want your uh thoughts, your criticisms, your comments, whatever.

652
01:09:48,146 --> 01:09:49,647
We do enjoy this.

653
01:09:49,647 --> 01:10:03,269
uh Jim and I enjoy this and we get an opportunity to meet so many interesting and
knowledgeable people like Major General Turley and uh Admiral Jamie Barnett.

654
01:10:03,269 --> 01:10:05,265
So this has been a lot of fun.

655
01:10:05,265 --> 01:10:20,790
And I also want to uh invite you to check out Jamie Barnett's uh sub stack, which is
Jamie's opinionated, that's all one word, which is opinionated by facts.

656
01:10:20,890 --> 01:10:25,972
So it's uh good to see everybody and guys, thank you so much.

657
01:10:25,972 --> 01:10:29,787
And as always, may, yes sir, yes.

658
01:10:29,787 --> 01:10:33,311
forgot to mention we are a oh 501C3.

659
01:10:33,311 --> 01:10:36,694
So any donations are tax exempt.

660
01:10:36,935 --> 01:10:38,236
So we're legit.

661
01:10:38,236 --> 01:10:40,618
The IRS will be looking for us next year.

662
01:10:40,618 --> 01:10:42,744
ah So.

663
01:10:42,744 --> 01:10:47,088
uh

664
01:10:47,088 --> 01:10:54,095
So please, uh please subscribe and please uh donate if you can.

665
01:10:54,095 --> 01:10:55,577
And as always,

666
01:10:55,577 --> 01:10:58,892
may we never be indifferent to the suffering of others.

667
01:10:58,892 --> 01:10:59,698
Thanks so much.