62 - Chicks in Construction === [00:00:00] Mikki: Well, hello, and welcome back to another episode of Chicks in Construction. I am your host, Mickie Paradise. This is my amazing co-host. Jessica: Hi, I'm Jessica Abreu. Mikki: And listen, this is a podcast hosted by chicks, so if that offends you, you should probably just keep scrolling, 'cause we're only gonna make you more mad going forward. Jessica: Mm-hmm. Mikki: We have this podcast to help you, the homeowner, understand what is normal and what is not normal in construction to avoid getting scammed by shady contractors. So if you're a shady contractor, you should probably keep scrolling. Just scroll on by. Because this is not for you. Mm-mm. This is, we're calling you out, and that makes a lot of shady contractors really mad, which I, um, I just want you guys to know I do not care. I do not care, and not 0%. So come for me all you want in the comments. Um, I don't read them, and I don't care. So there's that. So just, like, go ahead. Go ahead. Like, I don't even care. But so the [00:01:00] podcast exists for you, the homeowner, to help share stories that have happened to real homeowners all across the country, and share with you kinda what went wrong, how they could have avoided that situation so that you can learn from their mistakes, because learning the hard way is overrated, and we don't want you to have to go through that. So that is the entire premise of the podcast. People write in, they share their stories with us. We share them with you all, kinda give 'em, like, break 'em down, like, here's what happened, here's what I would've done differently, so that you can go into your next remodel or the next time you have to call a tradesperson or whatever it is- Jessica: Are you going to buy a house? Are you Mikki: gonna buy a house? Are you going to build a house? Are you gonna build a house? Like, there's so many things, and we want you to be prepared. We want you- Mm-hmm ... to have kind of a baseline of understanding of l- how to avoid finding yourself writing in. Now, if you've already had an unfortunate story, we would love for you to share it with us. Chicksinconstruction.com. We call them Homeowner Horror [00:02:00] Stories. Um, I don't know if that, that name is off-putting to people, but I think anybody who's actually lived through some of these situations- It's a horror story ... it's 100% a horror story. Mm-hmm. So you, we could call it Homeowner True Crime, because also, criminals. Criminals be out here in these streets just tearing up people's houses. Jessica: Mm-hmm. Mikki: Just call it what you will. If you'd share it with us, we will share it with our community. We have almost 65,000 subscribers, so if you're one of those subscribers, thank you so much. Thank you. We love you. Thanks for being here. Thanks for joining the community. So we, that is the premise of the podcast, but we start the podcast off with what we call Chicky Chat, which is Jess and I just pretty much shooting the shit. I'm not gonna lie. We just talk about whatever is living in the brain. Jessica: Pops in our brain Mikki: at the moment. And look, I'm still real sleep-deprived, so weird things be popping up in this brain- Mm-hmm on the regular. We gonna talk about it, and if that offends the soul, you can scoot. You can just scoot to where we get to the story. Or if you'd [00:03:00] just like to know what's happening in strangers' lives, which I know I do, 100%, just stay and watch. Before we hit the record button- We're talking about senior communities. Jessica: Mm. ' Mikki: Cause, you know, very hot topic. Very, a lot's happening. Jessica: We're, we're unfortunately getting closer and closer- Oh, God ... to needing them. Mikki: Which is just the wor- so I- Listen, side quest, we're gonna go on it. I'm gonna call it first I don't have kids, so I don't, I'm not constantly being exposed to humans that make me feel old. Jessica: Mm. Mikki: Last year my niece, who was 20, she's now 23, at the time she was 22. You see how that works, 22, 23. She moved in with us, and now I am constantly a- assaulted on a daily basis with how old I am. Jessica: Mm-hmm. Mikki: So we go to see The Odyssey, as one does, and there is a- Unless you're Jessica: Jessica ... Mikki: unless you're Jessica, who does not watch any [00:04:00] movies and does not know any of my movie references- None which makes me so angry. Jessica: Sorry. Mikki: I go to see The Odyssey, and there is a movie about Sylvester Stallone's life. Oh. And my niece had no Jessica: idea Who he is? ... that he was. And Mikki: I was like, "No." Wait, but he- No ... Jessica: he's still on TV. Mikki: Rocky, Rambo, The Expendables. Like, there's so many movies, and, like, are you kidding me? He's in shows. He's in, like, the Tulsa King. Yeah. There's so much. Sly Stone be out here on these streets. You should know him. And she don't know who he is, and I was like, "Oh my God, I'm so old." Even Jessica: I have seen Rocky. Mikki: Even you, even Jess. But you know what? We're old. We are old. We are. Which is just rude. It's just rude. So, - But you know what also- To people who have parents or have kids, every- everybody has parents. People who have kids, my God, today, you guys really are doing the, the Lord's work- Well, not only- ... just feeling old all day long. Jessica: Not only old. You know what my little [00:05:00] one all of a sudden doing? Mikki: Oh, God. She's a savage, just so you guys know. Jessica: She is. She doesn't do it to me. Thank God. But she'll go up to Brad, and she'll poke him in the belly and be like, "You got a jelly belly." Mikki: Oh, see, that's- And then- See, that's why I don't have kids- And then ... 'cause I know what I would think to do is illegal. Jessica: And she, and she, and then she'll be like- Like, "It's so jiggly." Oh my God. And he hates it, but he doesn't know how to respond, and I just die laughing, so she does it more. Mikki: I know how not to respond. Smacking that kid in the face. Oh my God. You're not allowed to do Jessica: that. It's hysterical. That's why I don't have them. But yeah, their mouths, like- Mikki: The things that come out of the children's mouths. Jessica: It's, it's- I don't know ... real honest. Mikki: Yeah. Jessica: Yep. Mikki: Yeah. But it's too, like, no filter. Yeah. And, like, listen, as somebody who is overly honest and no filter, even I know not to be touching somebody's belly. Come on now. But I'm also old. I don't know. It's a lot. Jessica: [00:06:00] Yeah. Mikki: So- Jessica: She told him that he could be, he probably eats Santa's cookies because he's got a big belly. And it's not really that big. Like Mikki: No. Like, Jessica: my Mikki: husband is not- Jessica: Brad is not Mikki: overweight. Jessica: No. He's just got- Mikki: He's got dad bod. As a dad- Yes ... he's, that's Jessica: his right. Mikki: There's, Jessica: there are no Mikki: abs. That is his God-given right to have dad bod. Yeah. How dare she? It's hysterical. This Jessica: child. I don't, and I don't stop it at all. Mikki: Yeah. I just- Yeah. She is a savage, though. Like- She is ... like s- Lana and I have, like, a forever beef just because. Mm. Just because. She's c- she's capable of, of pure savagery, and I just see so much of myself in her. I'm just like, "Clearly, we have Jessica: to fight." And then Mikki: she just smiles at you with those little blue eyes. Yeah, she does. She's so cute. She's so cute. That's- And you're just like, "That's dangerous. That's a dangerous combination." Yeah. Yes, we are. So we're talking about old folks homes. Jessica: Mm-hmm. Mikki: And we're ta- Joe brought up, so we live in Raleigh, North Carolina, and just down the street, just down the way, if you will, down yonder is a little neighborhood called, little town called Pittsboro.[00:07:00] And Pittsboro had never been on anybody's map or place to go in the world because it was the tiniest little town that had nothing in it. Jessica: It had a golf course, right? Mikki: I don't even know about that. It does. I did a job over there, like a decade ago, um, and it was all the time I wanted to spend in Pittsboro. Pittsboro was where you went when you were done with people and you wanted to live off the land. That's- Which is Jessica: why there's an old person community going in ... Mikki: built by Disney. So Joe, we were talking about it and Joe brought it up, and, uh, apparently, 'cause we're just like, "Who's gonna buy a old folks home in Pittsboro?" Apparently everybody. They're 100% sold out. You couldn't buy one if you wanted one. They're also the spiciest price of any senior home I've ever even heard about. Mm-hmm. So it's just a lot. It's a lot. And I'm just like, wait, Disney and seniors? I thought it was kid and Disney. We're now mixing old people and Disney? Okay. I don't Jessica: know. And Disney was like, "All the people that used to love [00:08:00] going to us are now old." Yes. "What can we do for them?" Mikki: Rude. Build a old- Oh ... folks home. That, you know, Jessica: I, I just- And remind them of their child- Mikki: Remind them of a better time- ... when cartoons were drawn by hand. Jessica: Or make their grandkids wanna come visit them because- Mikki: For real. And I'm just like- Mm ... I'm like, I don't know what goes into this, 'cause I won't, I won't lie to you guys, I haven't done enough research on it. When I heard, as somebody who grew up in Orlando and heard My Name is Mickey, the level of PTSD that I have from those two things emerging together is extreme. So when I heard there was a Disney neighborhood mo- like, coming here, I just completely shut it o- I was like- Mm don't give me any information about it. Oh, I Jessica: looked into it, 'cause I was like, ooh, that's probably going to be super bougie and- Oh ... I don't wanna have to do anything when I'm old. Let me look into Mikki: it. The bougiest. Mm-hmm. If it's gonna be anything like the neighborhoods that they built in Orlando, like, I, I [00:09:00] technically don't think it's Orlando, but they annexed a part of Orlando and call it Celebration. Mm-hmm. If it's anything like Celebration, I'd sooner choose death. But I guess if you're going to an old folks' home, you kind of are- ... choosing death. I don't know. Again, I've told you, I'm operating on an hour of sleep here. So we were talking about that, and Joe was like, "You guys should talk about that for the Chicky Chat." So listen, we're just doing what Joe told us to do. If you don't like- Yeah ... this topic, blame Joe. Blame Joe. Don't come for me. Or do, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna read the comment. I'm so tired of people's nasty ass comments, and I'm like fi- I'm just not gonna read it anymore. I'm not gonna read it anymore, so go ahead. Get your little hateful self just keyboard worry- warrior it out. Jessica: I'll read it. Mikki: Jess will read it, but listen, she's not even gonna report back to me. Nope. Because she's, we've been doing this long enough where she's like, "It's not worth it." It's not. So today- Jessica: Just give me a sassy comment back ... Mikki: so fr- I, I have, like, I have, like, [00:10:00] phases. So there's, like, a period of time where I'm just like, whatever, I don't care, I don't look at it, I don't wanna know, and then there's times where I'll look at it and I'll just be, like, so outraged at, like... Like, we posted one, and it wasn't even our- our words. We were repeating- Jessica: What was said ... Mikki: what was said. Jessica: Mm-hmm. Mikki: Um, and the freaking comments where j- like defending that general contractors don't have to have any experience. Oh, yeah. It's just not necess- what? You're saying this out loud. Like, you're putting this- Mm-hmm ... in writing to live on the internet forever. It's there forever. You can't, if you delete it, there's something called the wayback machine. I can go back to your comment. So j- guys, you're calling yourselves out for being irresponsible people- Mm-hmm ... that [00:11:00] don't think that you as a general contractor need to know how building works. You're not a people manager of people. And then the people- You're not a project manager. You own it. Yeah. You build it. You are responsible for it. You can be sued for it. Like, the n- level of nonsense out in these streets of y'all just being like, "General contractors don't have to know code." And then this, yeah. Stop talking. Jessica: Yeah. But just Mikki: even- You think I look stupid for saying that general contractors need to know what they're talking about? I hate to break it to you, Ken or Larry. You look like a psychopath going online and actually saying out loud that general contractors don't have to have any experience. Mm-hmm. Like, get out of here with that, like, gas. And Jessica: the homeowners that say it, like that agree or are like, "Yeah, why would they need to?" And I hire, I was like, "Okay, well, we'll ha- make sure that, like, all the contractors that don't have any experience and stuff will come do your renovation." It's just like- "And then you can let us know how you feel." Mikki: I mean, imagine a world where you're like, "My [00:12:00] surgeon doesn't have to have any experience. My surgeon doesn't have to have a license to- They're just- remove my gallbladder." Jessica: They're just going to oversee. Mikki: They're just overseeing that all of my organs are in tip-top shape, and that they put everything back where they found it, and they don't leave anything extra. Like, what, what? Do you hear yourself? Like- Jessica: Sorry, I made her mad. Mikki: Ugh, just, I'm just saying. So- Listen do what you want. Mm-hmm. It's social media, but I'm just saying, I've said this before, and I'll say it again, I can find you. Okay? And don't think I won't. Don't think I'm not capable of finding out where you work, Bob. Okay? Jessica: Bob the builder. Mikki: Don't think that I can't figure out what general contractor company you work at as the safety manager. Don't think I can't get to your boss. I'm just saying. [00:13:00] Jessica: Don't try her Mikki: I am psychotic and I wouldn't risk it. Jessica: And she has no sleep, so in the middle of the night- Mikki: I am operating on- ... Jessica: guess Mikki: what she's going to be doing ... none. I got 23 hours a day to just burn my guy. Choose wisely. Wisely. Choose Jessica: wisely. Mikki: But, you know, don't let me tell you how to live your life. This story today is a real doozy, and I'm not... I don't think it's surprising that it comes to us from the state of Florida. Dun-dun-dun. Florida's a real, Florida's a real topic- Jessica: It is ... Mikki: today. Um- Jessica: And what's crazy is that Florida actually has rules for their general contractors ... Mikki: Florida does have rules for th- So it's just- Of all the states that I thought was gonna be Wild Wild West status, it was Florida. 'Cause like, one, I grew up there. Two, I knew people that drove their lawnmowers to the convenience store. Jessica: Okay? Their tractors? Mikki: No, no. Lawnmower. Riding lawnmowers. Jessica: [00:14:00] Riding lawnmowers. Mikki: R- I mean, I guess you could call it a tractor, but it was a riding lawnmower Riding lawnmower ... uh, to, to the convenience store to pick up a pack of Bud Light. So when I say I- Yeah ... am very surprised that where Florida will allow you to ride said John Deere to the convene for a little Bud Light moment, it is shocking to me that Florida actually has some pretty good rules for general contractors. Jessica: Like- Yeah, you can't get your license unless you have, Mikki: like, experience You have to have experience. Like, like- And Jessica: pass a test and, like, do all the things ... I'm, I Mikki: was thinking it was just gonna be like, like how they are with their guns. Just go ahead, get one. Just go ahead, be a GC. I mean, you could just go ahead and open carry in, in, in Florida willy-nilly. So I'm just like, all right, well, if we're doing that, they clearly don't care about what happens to a house, but they do. They do. Which makes sense because, you know, they do get hit on occasion with some hurricanes. With a hurricane. So it makes sense, but at the same time, it... I did find it to be surprising. So this, this, uh, there's a neighborhood [00:15:00] called The Vista and- Vista. It sounds romantic ... it was a planned neighborhood, so it's, it's, this is a very interesting story. So- N- well, I mean, J- I don't know if you guys heard that, but Joe said, "As opposed to the unplanned neighborhoods," and that is- It's on the tape That's fucking insane ... that is a, that is a fair comment. Um- Jessica: Somewhere in the script it told her it was full Mikki: No, that's also fair, but maybe that's not the right word. But there is, like, um, there's this movement of, like, h- home building and, like, neighborhood development, that it takes, like, a huge swath of land, and it, like, almost like the Disney senior- Mm-hmm ... neighborhood. Like, they bought up a crazy amount of land, and they're, they're, like, building this really intentional type of neighborhood. Like, there was one in Georgia where their whole thing was, "We don't want anybody in the neighborhood to have cars." So they built the [00:16:00] neighborhood so where you didn't have to leave the neighborhood to get anything you needed, and you could walk to everything. So- Right ... I don't know what the right word for that is. Like, it's, it's a very intentionally planned development- Mm ... that people v- with a very specific desire- Vision ... right, right. Like, these are people who are like- Mm ... l- you know, I have an electric car, so don't get me wrong, who drive an electric car, and they're like, "I don't wanna, I don't wanna participate in global warming, and I'm real hardcore into recycling," which I'm not gonna lie to you, I am very hardcore into recycling. Hector jokes with me that he thinks I was Japanese in a past life, because the Japanese are, I'm gonna say, some of the best at recycling. They take that crap so seriously. So big, I'm big on recycling, too. But there's a whole thing. Like, you have to be, like, you seek these neighborhoods out, and people move- Mm from, like, all over the country to live in these very specific neighborhoods, and that is- What it ... what I was trying to [00:17:00] say on one hour of sleep. So, um, I want you to picture something with me. Close your eyes if you will. Not if you're driving, though. Um, we don't want that. Also, if you do, don't, don't blame it on us. So you saved for years. You found a lot in a gorgeous community in northeast Florida. Palm trees. Mm, I'm, I'm envisioning it. A pool, absolutely, yes. Good schools, which is hard to find in Florida. You hired a builder. You signed a contract, and over the next two years you wrote that man, I didn't write the script, well, actually, I did, uh, checks. You wrote that man checks. Big ones. Hundreds of thousands of dollars, exactly when he asked for them. And then one day the trucks just stop coming. Jessica: And your first thought is, your first thought isn't, [00:18:00] "This is fraud." Right. It's that there's weather delays, supply delays, something. Mikki: Right. Nobody's first thought is fraud. So you call, you text, you drive out there on a Sunday, you stand in your own half-finished house and try not to cry. And then you go home and open the mail, and there's a letter in there from a framing company you have never spoken to in your life. You have never been under contract with them in your life, and that letter says that you owe them money, and they have filed a lien against your property. Jessica: A property you already paid for. Mikki: Yeah. Jessica: Or thought you did, anyway. Mikki: Yeah, exactly. The house you already paid for. That's not a metaphor. It's not a worst case scenario. It is what happened in 15, for 15 families in a neighbor call, ho, neighborhood called The Vistas at Twenty Mile. [00:19:00] And last month, the man responsible for this was sentenced. Jessica: Dun-dun. Mikki: Dude, this is the most wild case. Um, when I read this story, I knew we needed to cover it because I own a drywall company. So we do drywall and paint, and it's like, so that makes us subcontractors. So we work for other builders to help them complete the process of building. That's kinda what qualifies you as a sub. . So I'm a subcontractor, so this is really personal for me because this is kind of the life that I live. This is, this is my reality. The part that makes this case so painful, uh, is that when a builder takes your deposit and doesn't pay their subs, the subs get robbed too. They put labor and materials onto your house they, that they never got paid for, and the only tool in the law that gives them, you know, the ability to get made whole is to come after the house. [00:20:00] Jessica: Mm. Mikki: So, and it's a, it's really kind of a crappy situation because the homeowners didn't do anything wrong, especially, like, if, if they And it is so common. It is so common for the general contractor to come to the subcontractor, i.e. me, and say, "Oh, sorry, I can't pay you because the homeowner didn't pay me." So that's why in a lot of states there's a clause called pay when paid, and that is a legal. So you as the general contractor are taking on the responsibility of paying your subcontractors no matter whether the homeowner pays you. Mm-hmm. So when somebody tries to pull that with me I'll be like, "Well, that's illegal. So I'm so sorry that, um, your homeowner didn't pay you, but you're legally obligated to pay me because I did the work that I was contracted to do." But what sucks about that is if the home- if the general contractor is shady, which in this case he was, the homeowner, who has already paid for this work, is now having a lien put on their property because that's what a, uh, the, the lien does. Like, so- Mm ... so [00:21:00] you as a, as a sub- subcontractor didn't get paid. They don't turn around and put a lien on the general contractor. They put a lien on the property, and so that puts the homeowner in a position where in order to get that lien removed that subcontractor has to be paid. Jessica: Yeah, so I think that most people Like, when I first heard this story, I was like, well, the subcontractors have to be in on it. Mikki: Right. Jessica: But that is not necessarily true. Mikki: Yeah, no. It's not. Like, n- nine times out of 10 the subcontractor came and did the work that they were told to do and then never got paid. Mm. And in order ... Like, it just legally it's just a business move. Like, you have to protect- Jessica: Mm-hmm ... Mikki: your company, so you put a lien on the property. So, I cannot d- is it Nocatee the name of this place in Florida, Nocatee. Okay. Uh. So, so here's the scene. Nocatee, Florida, I think, or Nocatee, you could correct us in the comments if you would like to. I'm Jessica: sure Mikki: they will. Um, I'm sure you will. It's your favorite [00:22:00] thing. Um, St. Johns County just south of Jacksonville has been one of the top selling master planned communities, I guess that was the word I was looking for earlier, uh, in the entire country for years. This is a place people move to on purpose. Mm. Uh, the neighborhood, there's call- there's, like, another subdivision within the subdivision called Vista at Twenty Mile, and that's where people were building custom homes. Jessica: And custom not meaning, like, here's your three or four options with floor plans- Yes ... and stuff like that. It's completely custom. Mikki: Yes. So that, that is 100% correct. Um, custom means you own the lot, you hire a builder. The builder builds the house, you know, to your plan. And I want to flag something, uh, just, like, right at the beginning, because it matters for everything that follows. When you buy a production home from a national builder, you [00:23:00] genuinely, genuinely, generally, sorry guys, don't pay until closing. So you know, you go under contract, they're gonna build the house. You wait until they're done building the house, and then at, you go to closing and you pay for the house once they're done building it. When you're doing a custom home, you're, you, you buy the land, so you're, you're out of pocket for that. You hire the general contractor. You go under contract, and you pay them in phases. So um, like, custom is the opposite of production, and custom money goes in first, and it goes in continuously. You're financing the construction through your own home in installments, um, while it's being built. So your money is exposed for, for a while. Um- Mm ... it's, it's not, like, a quick thing. Jessica: And that's a really important distinction, and I don't think most people have ever had it really explained. Mikki: Yeah, I don't think people [00:24:00] do explain it. Um, and it's not a scam. That's just, that's just, like, that's how it works. Um, but And, and it, it, pe- people literally do this all day long. Custom homes, custom home building is, is, is a huge part of construction, so it happens all the time, and it happens seamlessly all the time. But it means the whole system runs on the builder actually doing what they said they were gonna do with your money, and when they don't, you're already in for half a million dollars before anybody notices. And that, that's- Mm ... like, the reoccurring theme here. Jessica: So who was this builder? Mikki: Okay. So his name was Spencer, I think it's Culvert. Culvert? Spencer Culvert. He owned a company called Pineapple Corporation, which made me laugh. Jessica: Mm-hmm. Mikki: I don't know why. I just immediately thought that- It's the sleeping pineapple the pineapple is, like, the, the international sign of swingers. Jessica: Mm-hmm. So I was like- And Mikki: upside down pineapple ... okay, so he's letting everybody [00:25:00] know what he's into. Jessica: Mm-hmm. Mikki: So Pineapple Corporation, and between 2019 and 2023, he was building custom homes in that neighborhood. Jessica: All right, so he was in business for four years, so that's not a fly-by-night kinda situation here. Mikki: Yeah, that's the thing. This isn't, uh, just a guy with a truck and a magnet that, uh, had his, his company sign on it. Mm-hmm. This is a company operating on a, in a premium community for four years with real clients. Mm-hmm. One of his clients, and this was such a, such an interesting fact. I know you don't watch this show. Jessica: Nope. Mikki: But Captain Sandy Yawn, uh, if you watch Below Deck- The b- b- b... I guess she's the captain of all the Below Deck on Bravo. Jessica: Hmm. Mikki: But she's Captain Sandy. So Captain Sandy was one of this guy's clients. Jessica: Oh. That's pretty cool. So if you're a homeowner and you were doing your homework in 2021, and you look this guy up, you see a builder w- in an established [00:26:00] community working in the nicest neighborhood- Yep in the county with a recognizable client. Mikki: Which kinda stinks, because one, that client, you know, Captain Sandy didn't know that she was getting scammed. I'm assuming Captain Sandy is a girl. I actually don't know. I don't watch the show either because I spend most of my time on YouTube. But, like, that person didn't know that they were getting scammed, but so many other people bought into the community and bought into this builder because they- Mm-hmm recognized that they, that a celebrity was building and buying in this neighborhood, so they kinda put their trust behind al- ano- another complete stranger. Um, so it's like every g- green flag is there, and I want to say this clearly because there's a version of this story where we sit here and go, "Well, they should've known. They should've seen it coming." No, they did it, they did the normal amount of homework, and it did not save them. Hmm. That's [00:27:00] why we're doing this episode. Jessica: Yeah, so here is what gets me. It's four years, 15 families- Damn ... that he was able to scam, and so he was in this really nice neighborhood, so how does that happen? Mikki: I've thought about that a lot, and I think there are three reasons that none of... And none of them, like, truly none of them are like, "Oh, the homeowners were stupid." Mm-hmm. One, um, your build contract is private, so you don't know what your neighbors paid. You don't, you know, know what their draw schedule looks like, what their real, um... Y- like, like, y- nobody wants to talk money, especially in these- Mm-hmm ... kinda neighborhoods where we're talking about, like, million dollar homes. Nobody wants to be like, "Oh, this is how m-..." Well, I guess some people do, but, "This is how much I paid for my house." Um, so that's one of the things is, like, people kinda aren't sharing that. And two, construction delays are completely normal. Mm-hmm. So [00:28:00] every single build that runs late, um, it's kinda one of those things where you're like, "Oh, well, you know, we did have weather," and in Florida there's a lot of weather delays- A lot of it ... and there's a lot of things that, that cause things to go from, "Okay, we're six months to a year behind." It just, it happens. Um, and then I think the third one is, is, is shame. So one of the things I think is really prevalent in this story is that, um- Nobody wants Jessica: to share what Mikki: they're- Yeah ... going through Like, they just don't. Like, they, they feel like they got bamboozled, or they feel like they should have known better- Mm-hmm or they feel like, you know, "I don't want people to know that I was taken advantage of because it makes me look like I j- I'm an idiot." Mm-hmm. And that is a huge piece that keeps people from communicating back and forth and letting, letting other people know, like, "Hey, I'm having this problem. What about you?" Yep. Jessica: And that buys the builder more time to keep scamming people. Mikki: Exactly. Jessica: So- We gotta talk about people ... Mikki: in this case, [00:29:00] it bought this guy another year. Right. So every one of these cases, um, has that component in it, people sitting alone with it, each one thinking that they're the only one that this was happening to. Jessica: Hmm. So walk me through the money. Because I think this is where people's eyes glaze over. Mikki: Oh my God, though. Jessica: And it's the whole ballgame. Mikki: It is the whole ballgame. So you sign a contract for, let's say, $900,000. You know, just a c- a cool nine hunge. Um, you don't hand over $900,000 right then. You pay in a draw schedule. Jessica: So define draw- Yes ... for people who do not know what that is. Like, Mikki: I didn't. This is really important. I didn't know Jessica: that- Mikki: Yes ... Jessica: before. Mikki: And so many people, and so a draw schedule exists in all facets of construction. It's not just $900,000 new construction homes. A draw schedule exists in, um- R- remodels, like in everything that you're doing, there is or should [00:30:00] be a draw schedule. Mm-hmm. So let's talk about that. So it's a payment tied to a specific milestone. So classic, uh, residential draw schedules look something like you get a deposit for at signing, which it should not be more than 20%. You draw when the foundation is complete. So not before the foundation, but when the foundation is complete, the builder turns in a draw to pay for the foundation. So then you do a framing draw. So they do a draw when the framing is complete. Um, they do a draw at drywall. They do a draw when the roof and the windows are in, um, when the electrical and the plumbing is in, all of that. Like, each milestone is tie- is tied to not the start- Mm-hmm ... or the alleged start of something, but the completion. And that we see happen a lot with homeowners kinda getting talked into paying for something before they start. No. Mm-hmm. You pay after that item is [00:31:00] completed, and you don't pay until it is completed to your satisfaction. Because, again, we've talked about this a million times, the money is how you control the contractor. So if you want them to keep coming back, they have to, there has to be enough meat on the bone. Mm-hmm. You can't pay them for work before they've done it. It has to be once it's completed. And that, everybody who's legit in construction understands that. Jessica: Mm-hmm. So the money leaves my account and hits the builder's account after a specific chunk of work has been finished. Mikki: Yes. Jessica: And then what's supposed to happen? Mikki: So then the builder pays his people. Out of the framing draw, he pays the framer and the lumberyard and the crane company. Out of the drywall draw, he pays me. He keeps his overhead and his profit, and the rest is supposed to go straight through to the people who actually did the work and supplied the material. Jessica: But in this case- Mikki: Uh, in this case, according to the courts, it didn't flow. Calvert [00:32:00] collapsed, or sorry, Calvert collected large upfront deposits and construction funds from homeowners and did not pay the subcontractors and the vendors. He pled, he pled guilty to 45 felony counts and charges. The charges tell kind of the shape of it. Organized schemes to defraud, grand theft, and misappropriations of construction funds. Jessica: So that last one, the misappropriation of construction funds, that's a specific crime. Mikki: Yeah, so in the state of Florida, um, there are versions of it, uh, in lots of states, but specifically in Florida, um, th- that is a crime that you can be charged with. So like in North Carolina, I don't even know that that's a crime. Uh, well, it's a crime. It's Jessica: a crime, but- Mikki: But it's not really one you can be charged with. Um, so in the state of Florida, it is required that if you are paid [00:33:00] for a specific, like tied to a specific thing, that that, you have to then pay all of your trades and pay all of the materials. Uh, you can't just keep the money. That's just not how that works. And it happens enough that it, it sadly needs its own law because, and the total, this is the crazy part. The total in this case, uh, it was, it only took this guy four years to rack up over $8.7 million. $8.7 Jessica: million and 15 families. That's insane- Mikki: That is- ... amount of Jessica: money ... Mikki: absolutely insane. It is absolutely insane, and this information is coming from, um, News 4 Jax, which is the local news station in Jacksonville. Um, so just so you know, that's where our sources came from. Jessica: Hmm. Mikki: So 15 cooperating victims, which averages out to something like [00:34:00] $580,000 a family. That's not, you know, a deposit. That's most of the house. So it wasn't like he just kept the deposits and kept, you know, hire, signing up new people and keeping the deposits. He kept going back to them and kept asking for money. Jessica: Mm-hmm. Mikki: And kept saying, "Oh, I need money for this, and I need money for that," and they kept paying it, and that's kinda, that's how you get to $8.7 million. Jessica: It's crazy. And so now this poor person has a lien on their house even though they've paid this amount of money, and this is the part where I want us to slow way down because when I first read this case, I was like, "Wait a minute. This can't be legal that a lien can be put on because- Yeah ... I paid for my house. I've paid for all of the work, so how- Right ... can somebody put a claim on it?" Mikki: Yeah, and I think that's, like, a super common human reaction, and it's also very sadly completely wrong as a matter of law. And I do think that we need to explain that because that's, like, this is what protects you. Jessica: Mm-hmm. Mikki: Um, [00:35:00] a construction lien, as you'll hear, um- a mechanics lien, so it can also be called a mechanics lien. So like, like my friend who owns an HVC company, they call it a mechanics lien. But it can be a construction lien, it can be a mechanics lien, it can be a material lien, um, it's all in the kind of the same family, is a legal claim that an unpaid contractor, a subcontractor, or a supplier can record against the property they improved. Jessica: Improved. Mikki: Yeah, so that's the word that does all the work. Um, the theory behind lien law is that if my crew hangs and finishes the drywall in your house, your house is now worth more because of labor and materials they came out, that came out of my pocket. Mm-hmm. So if nobody pays me, I have essentially donated value to your real estate. So that law gives me a claim, not against the builder who stiffed me, which is ridiculous, but against the thing [00:36:00] that went, that my work went into. Hmm. So it's- Jessica: So in this case, it's- Yeah ... against the house. Mikki: It's against the house, which is just the worst. Mm-hmm. So here's the sentence that makes people furious, which I completely understand, um, and they should be furious, but they should also be furious in advance instead of afterwards. In most states, that lien right does not care whether you already paid the general contractor. Mm-hmm. And that is insane. Jessica: Yeah, so I can pay in full, in good faith- Mikki: Yep ... Jessica: and on time- Mikki: Yep ... Jessica: and still get a lien- Yep ... against my house. Mikki: Yep. Great. And that, like- Jessica: So great ... Mikki: you paying in full, in good faith, on time, with wire confirmations, and still- Hmm get liened, because from the sub's side, the transaction they're looking at is I put material in that house and nobody paid me for it. Your receipts prove that you paid the [00:37:00] builder. They don't prove the sub got paid, and so those are two really different events, which is- Which- ... just wild. Jessica: It doesn't make a- it's, I mean, I understand legally, like this is how it's done. Right. But like, if I can prove that I paid him, like- Mikki: Right ... go after him. Like, wh- Jessica: it should Mikki: be done at that point. Like, and that's like the part about liens that are so frustrating and it, it cr- it ju- it honestly, liens create a lot of paperwork. Jessica: Mm. And this is what happened at The Vista at Twenty Mile. Mikki: Yeah, that's exactly what happened. Hmm. The reporting on the sentencing says it plainly. He failed to pay the subs, which resulted in liens against the properties, and the homeowners then had to hire additional contractors to finish homes they had already paid for. Jessica: Yeah, so they're paying twice. Mikki: Yeah, and it, you're paying twice. And I want to be precise about, you know, w- what twice means because it's actually worse than it sounds which it's like how could it get worse? Mm. Number one, [00:38:00] you pay the lien or you fight it, and fighting it means lawyers and you're paying for lawyers. Mm-hmm. Number two, you pay a second contractor to finish the house. Jessica: Mm. Mikki: And I'll tell you right now, finishing somebody else's abandoned job is the most expensive work in the industry, and I've said this before. Like, when, when people hire the crappiest drywaller and then they come to me and say, "Hey, can you come fix this?" It's like, yeah. Yeah. But it's at a premium- It's gonna cost way more because I have to own it. Jessica: Mm-hmm. So really that's like paying, like, three things 'cause you paid already. Yeah. You gotta pay for the lien, and then you gotta pay for more work to be done. The Mikki: work to be finished. Jessica: And I think half, I mean, I would think that half the work is done is cheaper, but I completely- Mikki: Yeah Jessica: understand. Mikki: It's wild. Mm-hmm. So because I don't know what's behind the drywall, I don't know if the guy before me, you know, flashed the windows right. I don't know if the- Jessica: You gotta tear it all off and do it again. Mikki: Right. Like, it's- Mm ... it's just one of those things where it's like the, because there's, I have no idea what happens. It's just more expensive- Jessica: Mm-hmm ... Mikki: than, than it [00:39:00] would be. The second floor Yeah, like every, every defect in the house, because I'm taking over the work because it arguably becomes my problem. Mm-hmm. So, you know, I price the risk. Every honest contractor prices the risk. You know, rehabbing an abandoned job routinely runs 30, 40% over what it would have cost just to build the first time, the right the first time. Jessica: Oh my gosh. Mikki: Yeah. And so, um, the, the one thing that nobody really thinks about, uh, is w- when it comes to liens recorded on your property your title is clouded. a lot of people are gonna jump in on the comments on this and say, "Well, you can bond around liens." And, and listen, there's a lot of things that you can do to, uh, potentially get around a lien. But the essence of a lien means if I put a lien on your property and you go to sell your property, your title's not clean. You don't have a clean title. So you can't sell that property until your title is clean. Jessica: Mm-hmm. Mikki: So you [00:40:00] have to pay the subcontractors before you can sell the house, or you have to agree to pay the, you know, the subcontractors out of the sale of that house. Mm-hmm. Jessica: And I think you can't even refinance a Mikki: lot of times. No, you can't. You can't refinance. Like, you're really stuck in a position. Jessica: Mm-hmm. Mikki: And like it... Again, if you're super real estate savvy or you're, you know some real shady contractors, you might have heard of ways to get around liens on your property. Um, but Jessica: it's- Chances are you're trapped in it. Mikki: 100%. You're trapped in it, and the families in this case were trapped for years. Um, there was an arrest in 2024. He was sentenced in July of 2026. Some of the project were abandoned starting back in 2019. So these homes were sitting for almo- some of them were sitting for seven years. Jessica: Hmm. So let's talk about what happened to him because I know people are yelling- ... at their pho- Like, I was like, "Oh, I just wanna know what happened." Oh, my [00:41:00] God. Mikki: $8.7 million? Oh, I'd be screaming. Jessica: He deserves... Ugh, and like that I had to repay for things that I already paid and I have this lien on my house because of him, oh, I would... Mikki: Mm. Yeah. We all know. The, the, you gonna catch these hands- Mm-hmm ... as I like to say. So here's the record. Spencer Colvert pleaded guilty to 45 felony counts, including organized scheme to defraud, grand theft, and misappropriation of construction funds. Uh, on July 29th, 2026, he was sentenced to five years in prison, which I'm just like, really? We n- I need to start doing white collar crimes. Jessica: No. Mikki: Five years, that's all? For eight-point something million dollars? Hmm. Short time. Um, but apparently that was the maximum that was available under the plea agreement that he was given. Mm. Plus 30 years of probation, which I'm okay with that. That seems like an appropriate amount of time. Uh, he was ordered to pay restitution of [00:42:00] $8,722,000. But as we know- You can't get blood out of a rock. So I am quite sure that that money has been spent. It is not, it is, it is in a, an account in the Caymans right now. It is not sitting in his bank account. Mm-hmm. So being ordered to pay restitution does not mean that those families are gonna get that money back, and I wanna be really clear about that, um, because that's just not how that works. Jessica: Yeah, so $8.7 million, 15 families, four years, 45 felonies, five years in prison. It's- Mikki: It's insane. Mm-hmm. Um, and I wanna be careful here because I'm not a judge even though I am the most judgmental person I know. Jessica: Mm-hmm. Mikki: And I wasn't in the courtroom, so I don't know what the plea negotiation looked like or what the statutory maximums were. Five years was reported the max available to the judge on that plea. So I'm not going to sit here and say the judge [00:43:00] did something wrong. Who, who am I to judge a judge? Hmm. But I will judge a judge. Jessica: But you can say what the number is. Mikki: Yeah. I can also say what that number tells you about your own risk, which is this: the criminal system is not a refund system. 15 families testified at that hearing. Uh, the state showed up, the prosecutors did their job, he's going to prison, and it does not put anybody's houses back. Mm-hmm. It doesn't complete anybody's houses. Jessica: That's the part that I keep coming back to. Mikki: Yeah. Jessica: Even the best possible outcome in a courtroom, the guilty plea, the 45 counts- Right and yada, yada, yada, you gotta pay restitution, time in prison, that still leaves people behind. Mikki: Yeah, it puts people years behind, and hundreds of thousands of dollars out. The restitution ordered is not the same as restitution collected. Mm. Just like winning a lawsuit doesn't mean you're going to get that money. So [00:44:00] everything we're about to tell you in the next segment matters more than any courtroom documents do- do, um, because prevention is the only part of this that you can actually control. Jessica: So before we go there, I want to say something about the 15, because I think they're the actual heroes of this story. Yeah, Mikki: the 15 Jessica: families. And they'll never be described that way. Mikki: Yeah. Straight up facts. Jessica: The coverage calls them 15 cooperating victims. Cooperating. That word is doing a lot of quiet work. It means that 15 people who had already lost everything decided to spend another two years of their lives on this, turning over records, sitting for interviews with investigators, reliving the worst financial- Yeah decisions of their lives with a prosecutor, repeatedly. Yeah. And you know that they were made to feel like- Mikki: They were dumb, dumb, dummies. Mm. And, you know, standing up in [00:45:00] court in July and saying it out loud in front of, you know, this man who did them as dirty as dirty gets. Jessica: Mm-hmm. With their neighbors watching. And here's the thing. Nothing about that- Yep ... got them their money back any faster. Mikki: Nope. Jessica: They did that so that it would be on record. Mikki: And so that we could sit here and do this episode, y'all, um, that's one small thing. There is no version of this show where we get to warn people without somebody first being willing to publicly, you know, state, talk about the worst thing that has happened to them, you know, possibly in their lives. Mm-hmm. Jessica: So if you're one of the 15 and you're listening to this, thank you. Mm-hmm. Generally. Mikki: Yeah. Jessica: Genuinely. My gosh. We're Mikki: all having Jessica: problems Mikki: today. And Jessica: I even got some sleep last night. Um- Mikki: Must be nice. Jessica: You turned the worst thing that ever happened to you [00:46:00] into a warning that's going to save somebody else. Mikki: And listen, even though we've already covered this story, if you're one of the 15 and you wanna give us a little bit more detail, you wanna give us a little more, little more tea, you know I'm here for it. So please, chicksinconstruction.com, share it with us. Um, and that's the only good thing that comes out of these stories, is that we get to actually use it and help other people kinda learn how to avoid- Mm-hmm these situations. Jessica: So let's get into a disclaimer. Mikki: Oh, it's my favorite. Uh, I shall read it word for word. We are not attorneys, neither of us. Construction lien law is written state by state, and the deadlines and required forms are different everywhere, and some of what we're about to describe works differently where you are, where you live. Take this as a list of questions to bring to a real construction attorney in your state, not as legal advice. Get [00:47:00] an hour of a real attorney's time before you sign a, a build contract, uh, which is literally the cheapest insurance for in the entire industry, is called an attorney. Jessica: All right. We're gonna go over seven things. Go. Mikki: . One, lien waivers with every single draw. This is not an uncommon thing for people who work in construction. I have had to sign every single time I do a draw. Jessica: Mm-hmm. Mikki: I have to submit probably, like, 18 documents that all have to be notarized, and two of them are two different kinds of lien waivers. So this is the first of the two pieces of paper that I promised we would talk about it. The lien waiver is a signed document from a subcontractor or a supplier saying, "I have been paid for this work. I give up my right to lien this property for it." Um, there's kinda two flavors of the different matters. Uh, a conditional waiver, which, again, I have to sign every [00:48:00] month, that takes effect when the payment is actually cleared. So, like, when I deposit the check into my account, that, that, the conditional waiver kinda kicks in, and an unconditional waiver that takes effect the moment it's signed, paid or not paid. The practical rule is you collect a conditional waiver when you release the draw and an unconditional waiver when the payment has actually cleared. Jessica: And who do I collect them from? The builder? Mikki: So from every sub and supplier on that draw, not just the builder. The builder's waiver protects you from the builder filing a lien. It does not, uh, protect you from, from, from the subcontractor. So those subcontractors- Mm ... need to be on there. You want it to stack. Jessica: So what if the builder says, "Oh, well, this is a hassle"? Mikki: Well, then you have to, you've, you've learned something valuable for free. Every legitimate, this is facts, guys. Every legitimate general [00:49:00] contractor in America does this on every project every month. It's called a pay application, which we have talked about. Mm-hmm. A pay application package. So when I get a new contract, I will get my pay application package, which is, it is, like, 37 pages of things that have to be- ... turned in every, uh, but it's standard practice. Mm-hmm. Like, it may not be so much in, like, single-family residential, commercial, or residential construction, but it should be because this is a residential situation where if they had had this practice- Mm-hmm they wouldn't have been subject to this. Jessica: Gotcha. Mikki: Yes. The second thing is don't throw away scary letters. Um, a- in a lot of states, when a subcontractor starts work on your property, they'll requi- they're required to send you a formal notice. In Florida, it's called a notice to owner. It's a legal document that shows up in the mail, and it sounds super threatening. Jessica: So I'm guessing most people throw it out. Mikki: 100%. They either throw it out, or they f- they like hardcore panic. Um, but what I'm asking you [00:50:00] to do is to do neither. That notice is not a bill, and it doesn't mean anything is wrong. What it is is a free self-updating list of everyone who has the right to lien your house. So put everyone on, everyone on them in a folder. That's- Every one Jessica: of them. Mikki: Yeah, every one of them in a folder. That folder is your sub roster. So everybody that says, "Hey, I have the right to lien your house," keep, keep, keep a note of it. Keep it somewhere. Keep it somewhere safe. Um, it's your roster. It kinda lets you know the checklist, that you wanna make sure that you're collecting those waivers from the right people every single time you pay the builder. Uh, the third one is never let payments run ahead of the work. Mm-hmm. You guys, do not prepay for work. Work is paid for when it is completed. Um, we've said this again. We'll say it a million times. You pay for work that is in place, not work that is promised. Before you [00:51:00] release a draw, you go look at it. You take pictures. If the draw says that the framing is complete, the framing needs to be complete, not framed-ish. Hmm. Jessica: And what about a deposit, um, before anything exists? Mikki: Yes, so that's a great question, and here's my rule of thumb when it comes to deposits. Deposits should be sized to real upfront costs. We have talked about this. Permits, plans, material orders that are kinda specialty orders or they're special orders that have to be placed early, like, you know, like cabinets and things like that. If somebody wants 30, 40% to be contracted and paid before the shovel is in the ground, ask what specifically that money is buying and ask to see invoices it's covering. A builder with a healthy business does not need a huge chunk of money to start. And Jessica: guys- And if he does? Oh. Mikki: No, go ahead. Jessica: And if he does? Mikki: I mean, [00:52:00] then he may be finishing the last customer's house with your money, so that the, the rob Peter to pay Paul moment, like, that's where that all comes from. So there's a pattern in almost every one of these cases, and it's not a heist. It's a hole. And every new deposit fills in the last one. So the last one I'm gonna say is to use fund con- funds control or a construction escrow service. So for large custom builds, you can hire a third-party distribute- distribution ... I cannot say this word. Dis- Disbursement? Dis- disburse- disbursement company. Um, and your money goes to them, not the builder, and they release each draw only after they verify that the work is done and the w- lien waivers are col- collected. And I cannot, I cannot tell you how valuable this service is. Jessica: Hmm. So what is the cost? Mikki: It's a small percentage of the job, and I'd frame it this way. It's, [00:53:00] like on a $900,000 house, uh, if the service costs you a few thousand dollars and it makes the event in this episode impossible- Jessica: Mm-hmm ... Mikki: it's not an expense. That's the best priced insurance you will ever buy. Mm-hmm. Like, it is 100% the absolute best way to go. Jessica: Everything we just said is prevention. Mikki: Yes. Jessica: And some people listening are past prevention, unfortunately. Yeah. The truck's already stopped, so I want to run the emergency version, and I want you to answer fast. Mikki: Okay. Go. Jessica: One, do I keep paying to keep him happy? Mikki: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I don't even need to read the script for that. Uh, stop releasing draws until you have physically verified the work is in place and you have the waivers in hand. In this case, it's not necessarily just that you, that, that the work is in place because in this case, some of the work was in place. It was that they also did not have those lien waivers in place, so tha- that's why they [00:54:00] ended up having to pay twice for it. Um, so you verify that the work is in place, you have the waiver, the, the waivers in hand, and I know that feels like you're the one, you know, blowing up any relationship, but you're not. The money is the only leverage you- Mm-hmm ... have left, and paying more is never the right solution. Jessica: Right. So let's say that, like, the trucks have stopped. What am I doing this weekend? Mikki: So you start building file, the file. You start collecting the evidence. You start, you get every contract, you get every change order, every draw request, every canceled check and wire confirmation, every text, every email, all the things. You get all the tea. Jessica: Mm-hmm. Mikki: Um, in one folder, you have a timeline. You order it. If you end up with a lawyer, that file is the difference between a cheap case and an expensive one. Jessica: So how do I find out how bad it actually is? Mikki: So there's two searches. [00:55:00] Um, have the title company run a lien search on your, on your property so you know who has already recorded against you, so re- recorded a lien against you, and go to the county clerk and search the builder's name. Because if he's doing this to you, he's almost certainly doing this to other people, and there are, those lawsuits are public. Jessica: Nice. And now who do I call, and in what order? Mikki: Okay. So a construction attorney in your state is the first person that you call before anybody else. Um, and I mean construction specifically because, you know, there's a million different facets of law. Um, so don't call your cousin- Mm-hmm ... who does real estate closings, 'cause that's not the same. There are hard deadlines, um, in lien laws, which is really facts. Like, you have to, you have to deal with things in a very timely manner or you can, you know, kind of pass the deadline. Uh, it's measured in days, not months, and your state licensing [00:56:00] board. So that- Y- you know, y- the, your attorney general also is, in consumer protections, is somebody you would also wanna call if it's kinda bad enough Jessica: Right. Does reporting to the state actually do anything? Mikki: Honestly, it will probably not get your money back. Um, and it will probably feel like shouting into a drawer Or into a void, just depending. Yeah. Um, but do it anyway, and here's why. Every one of these prosecutions starts with a pile of individual complaints that somebody eventually noticed adding up. Um, and you're not filing that complaint for you, you're filing for the families that hires them next spring. Jessica: All right. And last one, what is the mistake people make at this stage? Mikki: Waiting. Every single time, people wait because they're embarrassed or because, you know, he answered the phone this one time and sounded reassuring, or because they can't face [00:57:00] w- what it means. Waiting is the worst thing that you can do. Giving them more time is the absolute worst thing you can do. If your gut has been telling you something is wrong, and your build is, you know, more than two years and you're still not there, your gut is right. Go tell somebody and have somebody take a look at it. Jessica: Mm. So give me the one thing. If somebody's driving and they can only keep one sentence from today- Okay Mikki: what would it be? It would be paying your builder is not the same thing as your builder paying the people who built your house. Mm. Those are two different events, and one of them is on your bank statement. Jessica: And the two pieces of paper? Mikki: So lien waivers on every draw, and the notice letters that you were about to throw away, you're gonna hold those because that tells you who could file a lien against you. Jessica: And if you're middle, if [00:58:00] you're in the middle of a build right now and something about this felt a little too familiar, go pull your file tonight. Mikki: Yeah. Jessica: Not tomorrow, tonight. Mikki: Yeah. Jessica: Look at what you've paid and look at what's actually standing on that lot, and see whether those two things match. Mikki: Yeah, and if they don't match, call a construction attorney in your state immediately. Like, do not wait. We cannot, I cannot stress that enough. Not when, you know, it gets worse. Do it immediately, when you still have the money left to do it. Jessica: If this was useful, send it to someone you know- Yeah ... who is building. That's generally the most helpful thing that- Yeah ... you can do with it. Mikki: Yeah. Like, sharing these podcasts is really important. Um, any- anybody who's about to start a renovation, who's about to build a new house, whatever it is, is buying a new house, sharing these podcasts is really helpful. Also, sharing your stories with us. Mm-hmm. So we [00:59:00] really love the homeowner horror stories because I feel like they're, they just feel a little bit more personal- Mm-hmm and we kinda g- get to connect with our audience. So we do love it when you guys share your stories with us, so if you have had a very unfortunate story, if you're one of these families, we would love to hear from you. You can go to chicksinconstruction.com. You scroll down, you can share your story with us. Jess will literally never say your name out loud. Jessica: Never. Mikki: And w- it's, it's kind of cathartic, but it also helps the community to learn from make, from, from your mistakes, and we always want people to learn- Mm-hmm ... the easy way, not the hard way, 'cause learning the hard way is overrated. Overrated. So Jess, where can they find us on the socials? On Instagram, Jessica: Facebook, and LinkedIn, it's @chicksinconstructionpodcast. On TikTok, it's @chicksinconstruction. Please like and follow. Mikki: Like, follow, and subscribe. All right, guys, we'll see you on the next one. We love you. Bye. Bye. Hey.