Talal Hasan - 44.01

[00:00:00] We need to be pulling a billion tons of CO2 out of the air for us to hit that 2050 target. There is an increase of a hundredfold of storage required on the planet today. That's a trillion dollar market opportunity. We get pushback from academia, from people within other businesses who are like, "Oh, that's not possible."

It just reached a point where I was like, you know what? I think I can do this myself. We're effectively rewriting the geology books and what's possible and what's not possible. Rather than taking decades in nature, we're doing this in months. An allegation may be sometimes made about fossil fuel companies, especially in relation to projects of this nature. There's an element of maybe greenwashing and "Is this kicking the can down the road?" We definitely need to make sure that we're not allowing the status quo to continue. Typically hard tech has been imported into this region. We've developed a new technology in the region and we are now exporting it and sharing it with the world.

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Welcome. Thank you for joining the podcast, Talal. For reference, you won't know this, but 44 01 was the first company that I ever wrote about for my publication FWDstart over two years ago. So this is full circle of sorts, a full little circle as far as I'm concerned. So hopefully I don't disgrace myself in terms of questions that I'm about to put to you.

But something I was very curious about when digging into the research for this was I was trying to pinpoint when it was that you came across this particular solution. And my best guess potentially, and you correct me if I'm wrong, was I think maybe this entered public consciousness or mainstream around 2018. There's a New York Times article about Peter Keleman's work. Am I correct? Was this a spark that's part of the story?

Yes. But first of all, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here always. Love being in the UAE. It was great that the stars aligned that I was here for this recording.

But yes, let's go back to 2018 because that's where [00:03:00] it all began. And funnily enough, it began with another publication which came just slightly before, or it might have been slightly after that publication you're referring to, where they had discovered the largest dead zone in the world off the coast of the GCC, so in the Arabian Sea.

And so for those of you who don't know what a dead zone is, it's an area of the ocean which has little or no oxygen content and that obviously has very adverse effects on marine life. Having grown up here in the region, being from the region, I spent a lot of my time in the sea—snorkeling, free diving, scuba diving, any type of water sports. And so huge passion for the sea, huge amount of respect for the oceans. And when I read that, there was something in me that just said, "Right, what are we going to do about this? What can we do about this?" So I started with why, and that's what started me on this journey of CO2 emissions and how we can capture and store them permanently.

As a visitor to Oman previously, to the Daymaniyat Islands, and snorkeling, there is literally one of my [00:04:00] favorite places in the entire world. Absolutely beautiful. This is not sponsored by the Omani Tourist Board, but at the same time, I would urge anyone who hasn't had the pleasure of visiting Wadi Shab as well—absolutely extraordinary. I would keenly advise.

You're practically a local.

It's true. It's been my favorite, I must say. And we'll maybe geofence this so that none of the other countries around the region hear this, but my favorite country.

But look, in terms of that Peter Keleman piece in the New York Times, I suppose what he'd been harping on—I don't mean that in a derogatory way, but since the early 2000s in many respects—this idea of peridotite formations and that there's this ability to sequester CO2 and mineralize it within the rock. Would you be able to expand maybe a little bit on this and how you first came to that?

Yeah. So I was a venture capitalist prior to my journey here at 44 01. The other side of the table.

Yes, I was on the other side of the table. And what we were tasked to do—so I helped set up the [00:05:00] venture capital arm for the sovereign of Oman, and we were tasked to look at technologies that could help us address challenges that we may have in Oman and in the region. And so when I read about this dead zone, I dug into why is this dead zone there?

And the more research I did, the more scientists I spoke to, it all ended up to a root cause, which was CO2 emissions. So we emit CO2 into the atmosphere. The ocean actually absorbs a lot of that CO2. And so there's always an equilibrium between the atmosphere's concentration of CO2 and the ocean's concentration of CO2.

And that extra acidity in the ocean then triggers certain things like algae blooms that eat up the oxygen. So I found out that CO2 was an issue here. So I said, "What can we do about this?" And I started digging into carbon capture. And there were back then only three DAC companies. I believe now there's over a hundred.

DAC is direct air capture. So I went and spoke to the founders [00:06:00] of those companies and when I would ask them what they did with their CO2, I realized that there was a bit of a panic there. Like there wasn't a solution of somewhere to put carbon dioxide, store carbon dioxide permanently and safely for long periods of time.

So with that nugget of information, I started looking at what was going on in the storage world, CO2 storage, and obviously you have conventional storage—putting CO2 into depleted oil wells, into EOR, enhanced oil recovery, saline aquifers—and those are great. They work. But I quickly realized that those only work in geographies or places where you actually have access to those types of rocks or those types of formations.

And then I came across this article, the Peter Keleman article in 2018, and that kind of sparked the aha moment because funnily enough, Oman and the UAE have some of the largest deposits of this type of rock in the world.

How did you elect then to do it yourself? So you're an investor. [00:07:00] You're clearly obsessed and passionate and you identify what sounds like a very real gap in the market. I imagine that you probably tried initially to close that gap through investment and supporting other companies. What was the journey then from supporting others to doing it yourself?

Yeah, so my first instinct when I was researching this was there must be someone else working on this. And I met a lot of incredible scientists who had done a lot of research on this particular technology. But when I started looking at the businesses that were being built around this, I just couldn't find anyone that was doing it in a way that I thought, okay, this is the company that I would back.

And then I flipped it and I said, "Okay, you know what? I need to speak to the customers. I need to speak to those businesses who would want this type of storage technology, those businesses who are emitting a lot of CO2 now and need to reduce their emissions." And as I spoke to them, they're like, "Well, we're not going to buy this product that you're showing us because of this, this, and this."

And so it just reached a point where I was like, "You know what? I think I can do [00:08:00] this myself. I've got customers here, I've got interest here. I've got the rock formations, I've got amazing scientists around me." And I was just so naive that I thought I could pull this off. And so I left my VC job and went to go start this company.

I'm very glad I didn't know what I know now. I probably wouldn't have started this company if I knew how hard it was. What was your sense of the science at that point? Because you come to the table with a finance background, an investor background. You're not a geologist. You're not a petrologist, if that's the right term. What did you know enough to be dangerous, to feel like you could start this company, or was it that you'd gotten access to the scientists at that point?

So I'm a chemical engineer by background, so I did understand a lot of the chemistry. I did understand a lot of the engineering. And I could follow what the scientists were talking about and asking the right questions. But what I didn't know was how to commercialize it, what was needed to scale the technology, and how the hell are we going to build this business and make it commercially viable?

And so [00:09:00] I needed a co-founder who was technical. And so that's where my other two co-founders came on board who are both geologists. And one's an exploration geologist, one's a production geologist, and I always joke that they make perfect bookends because there's this whole world in the middle of finding the right formations and being able to produce it.

And we work very well together in that they're able to think through the technical side and what's possible, what's not possible, and I'm able to bring that back and say, "Okay, yes, what you're saying is technically correct, but can we commercialize it? Can we do it in a way that makes business sense?" And so having that balance there is really key.

So look, for the sake of audience who may not be familiar with peridotite and what you're working on, would you be able to explain maybe a little bit how the science works?

Yeah. So the way I like to describe this and the analogy I like to give is if you were to have rusted metal and you were to put that rusted metal on your tongue, you wouldn't be worried, right? If you had liquid [00:10:00] metal and you put that on your tongue, you would be worried, right? And so that, to me, is how I describe the transformation that happens when CO2 reacts with this peridotite or with this type of rock.

So what happens is CO2 in its gas form is very harmful to the environment, but when it reacts with these rocks, it solidifies and it turns into a carbonate mineral, which is limestone. So it effectively transforms a harmful gas into a benign solid. And so that's the process that we're looking to do.

And one of the amazing things about the chemistry is it happens naturally. So when you have rainfall, that rainfall will absorb CO2 in the atmosphere. It becomes slightly acidic, and when it lands on this type of rock, it reacts with it and it mineralizes. The problem with that is it takes a very long time, so it takes decades for this process to happen naturally. What we're doing [00:11:00] is we're accelerating that to months rather than decades or even years.

And so we're effectively rewriting the geology books in terms of what's possible and what's not possible. And then what's even cooler is this process of CO2 reacting with these rocks, there's an exothermic reaction. So it generates heat. And that heat in turn can be used to power the process, which makes this whole thing, if not carbon negative, then definitely carbon neutral.

What was the R&D journey like? So you have the hypothesis, you have, I imagine, some lab results showing that this can work. What were the steps that you had to take to get from, "Okay, we know this can work at a certain scale" to it being deployable in a commercial context?

So initially, there was a lot of modeling—a lot of fluid flow modeling, a lot of geological modeling to understand these rocks, understand this formation better, understand where that flow of fluid would go. And one of [00:12:00] the things that we realized early on was that if we were to just inject our CO2 water solution, our carbonated water, into these rocks, the water would go along the pathway of least resistance.

And if you think of geology, it's never uniform. There's no uniformity there. You have fractures, you have fissures, you have certain veins, and so all of the fluids would naturally just go down one of those pathways of least resistance and not touch the rock. And so that's where we had this problem, which was, "Okay, we can only mineralize X percentage, Y percentage of this rock when we're injecting it."

And that's where a lot of our innovation comes in, where we've developed a way to get that fluid to touch more of the rock. And so that's where our IP comes in. That's where our proprietary technologies come in. But we had to do that both in the lab and in the field. And so we started our first pilot here in the UAE in 2020 [00:13:00] with support from ADNOC and other partners.

And we found a rock that we could use and started pumping our carbonated water into it. And that's where we started getting data. That's where we started understanding, "Okay, so when we're pumping, this is what's happening. When we add this additive, this changes. When we do this operation, that changes."

And so it's only through getting that real-world data that we've been able to start understanding our technology better and then improve our technology so that it's scalable and it can be commercialized. And I think that's one of the biggest challenges or risks with deep tech is you need capital and you need time. We were lucky that we found a customer who believed in the technology and also had that long-term vision.

That's one of the things I'm most curious about is this tension between—you said at the beginning you're lucky you were naive. You didn't know how hard [00:14:00] this would be. If you had known, you probably wouldn't have started. But I get the sense, I don't know if it's the case, but what probably makes this doable is the fact that you had a customer from the jump.

And so you didn't have to overcome some of the many challenges that other deep tech founders have where they need to stay afloat until they can get proof of concept. It sounds like you had support all throughout that process from customers. Is that a fair characterization?

Correct. So actually, the idea for this business was born from a customer challenge, right? So it all came back from, "Okay, there's a dead zone here. What do we need to do to fix this?" And I knew that if I could answer that question and solve that challenge that there would be others who also would have the same challenge.

And so yes, having a customer from day one who said, "This is what we need. This is what would work for us, this is what wouldn't," was absolutely critical. And actually, the business model that we run today is all about having customers [00:15:00] who are involved from day one and who will give us that feedback loop. And this goes back to product design 101, right?

You should always be working with your customer and understanding the challenges that they have and understanding how they would like the solution packaged and what are the things that are critical for them, what are the things that are nice to have. And having ADNOC as our first partner was absolutely game-changing.

There's something else, too, I suppose, which I wanted to get your perspective on, which is there's accusations that often get lobbed at carbon capture more broadly, which is that fossil fuel companies are maybe using these projects for greenwashing. I don't think that's fair in this context. I think this is actually a net good, but I would appreciate your perspective on that because there's often criticisms that maybe you're kicking the can down the road, that if you just allowed companies to continue to do what they're doing, offset it through carbon capture, you're not really doing anything to ameliorate [00:16:00] the problem.

Yeah, so I definitely get that criticism and I see where people are coming from. However, I think there's a couple of points that I'd like to make. The first one is we definitely need to make sure that we're not allowing the status quo to continue. And I think that's what happened initially with carbon capture where people said, "Okay, you can continue business as usual and we'll just capture your carbon."

What we need to do as a planet, as a global community, is we need to continue reducing our emissions. However, we also need to recognize that there are emissions which are really hard to abate. And those hard-to-abate emissions, we do need to capture them and store them permanently. And so I see it as we have to do both.

We have to reduce emissions as much as we can, and at the same time capture and store any emissions that are really hard to abate. That's the first point. The second point is if you look at the data, the IPCC and other scientific bodies have said that in order for us [00:17:00] to hit the 2050 target, we need to be pulling a billion tons of CO2 out of the air every single year.

And today we're only capturing around 50 million tons. So we need to increase our capacity by a hundredfold. That's not going to happen by just reducing emissions. We need to have these capture and storage technologies. And so for me, it's about making sure that we're not using it as an excuse to continue business as usual, but recognizing that it is a tool that we need in our toolkit to address this challenge.

The other thing is we're not just storing CO2. We're also looking at utilizing it. So we're looking at turning CO2 into products, whether that's building materials, whether that's fuels, whether that's chemicals. And so there's a whole circular economy that can be built around CO2. And I think that's where the real opportunity lies.

How far along that journey are you? Because that sounds like a very different business from just sequestration.

So at the moment, we're focused on [00:18:00] permanent storage because that's what our customers need right now. That's what the market needs. However, we are keeping a very close eye on the CO2 utilization market and we're exploring partnerships with companies who are developing these technologies.

And so the way I see it is we have the CO2, we have the infrastructure to capture it and store it. If we can partner with companies who can turn that CO2 into something useful, that's an even better outcome. But for now, our focus is on permanent storage because that's where the immediate need is.

One thing I'm quite curious about too is the speed element. You mentioned that in nature this process takes decades, but you've managed to bring it down to months. How critical is that speed to the commercial viability of what you're doing?

It's absolutely critical. So if we were to rely on the natural process, we would need massive amounts of land, massive amounts of rock to be able to store the volumes of CO2 that we need to store. By accelerating this process, [00:19:00] we can use less rock, we can use less land, and we can store more CO2 in a shorter period of time.

And so that speed element is what makes this commercially viable. It's what makes it scalable. And it's what allows us to hit the targets that we need to hit in terms of the volume of CO2 that we need to store. So it's absolutely critical to our business model and to the technology that we're developing.

And I suppose that proprietary element as well in terms of how you're getting that fluid to interact with more of the rock—that's the secret sauce, so to speak. That's what makes 44 01 distinct from someone else who might try to do the same thing.

Exactly. So there's been a lot of academic research done on this topic, but where we're innovating is in how we're actually doing it at scale, how we're making it commercially viable, and how we're ensuring that we're getting the best bang for our buck in terms of the rock that we're using and the CO2 that we're storing.

And so [00:20:00] that's where our IP comes in. That's where our proprietary technologies come in. And that's what allows us to differentiate ourselves from others who may be looking at similar technologies.

You mentioned the IPCC targets as well. There's this stat—I think it's a billion tons per year by 2050. Where does that number come from? How confident are we in that number? Because I imagine there's a lot of modeling that goes into that.

Yeah, so that number comes from various climate models that have been developed by the IPCC and other scientific bodies. And what they've done is they've looked at different scenarios—so if we reduce emissions by this much, if we capture and store this much CO2, what are the outcomes in terms of global temperature rise?

And based on those models, they've said that in order for us to keep global temperature rise below 1.5 degrees Celsius, we need to be removing a billion tons of CO2 from the atmosphere every year by 2050. Now, are those models perfect? No. There's always uncertainty in [00:21:00] modeling. But they're the best scientific estimates that we have.

And so that's what we're working towards. That's what the global community has agreed to work towards. And that's what's driving a lot of the investment and innovation in this space.

I suppose one of the questions I have too is around the regulatory environment. You're dealing with subsurface rights, you're dealing with environmental regulations. How have you navigated that, particularly in markets like the UAE and Oman where the regulatory frameworks might be quite different from, say, Europe or the US?

So actually, one of the advantages of being in the UAE and Oman is that the regulatory framework is quite clear. The government owns the subsurface rights, and so we're working directly with government entities to develop these projects. And they've been very supportive because they see this as part of their net-zero strategy.

So we've actually found the regulatory environment here to be quite enabling. Where it gets more complex is when we [00:22:00] start looking at international markets, where you have different ownership structures, different regulatory frameworks, different environmental regulations. And so that's something that we're navigating as we expand into new territories.

But having started here in the UAE and Oman has actually given us a really good foundation because we've been able to develop our technology, prove it out, and then take it to other markets with that track record behind us.

You mentioned international expansion. What markets are you looking at? Where does 44 01 go next?

So we're looking at markets where there are similar geological formations to what we have here. So we're looking at parts of Europe, we're looking at parts of North America, we're looking at other parts of the Middle East. And we're having conversations with potential partners and customers in those markets.

The way we're approaching it is we're not trying to do this alone. We're looking for partners who have a presence in those markets, who understand the local regulatory environment, who have relationships with the right stakeholders. And then we bring our technology and our expertise [00:23:00] to the table. So it's very much a partnership approach.

And I think that's the best way to scale this because trying to do everything ourselves would just take too long and require too much capital. So partnerships are absolutely key to our expansion strategy.

How do you think about the competitive landscape? Are there other companies doing similar things? And if so, how do you differentiate?

So there are other companies working on carbon capture and storage, but most of them are focusing on conventional storage methods—so depleted oil wells, saline aquifers, that sort of thing. There are a few companies looking at mineralization, but not many are doing it at the scale and speed that we're doing it.

And so our differentiation really comes down to three things: the speed of mineralization, the scalability of our technology, and the fact that we're permanent storage. So once that CO2 is mineralized, it's locked away forever. It's not going to leak out. There's no risk of it escaping back into the atmosphere.

And [00:24:00] I think that permanence piece is really important, particularly as we start to see more scrutiny on carbon credits and carbon offsets. People want to make sure that when they're paying for carbon removal, it's actually being removed permanently. And that's what we can guarantee with our technology.

I want to talk about the business model a bit. How do you make money? Is it per ton of CO2 stored? Is it through carbon credits? What does the revenue model look like?

So our primary revenue model is per ton of CO2 stored. So we charge our customers a fee for every ton of CO2 that we capture and store for them. And that fee covers the cost of capture, the cost of transportation, the cost of injection and storage, and obviously our margin.

Now, in addition to that, there are carbon credits that can be generated from this activity. And those carbon credits can be sold on voluntary carbon markets or potentially in compliance markets in the future. And so that's an additional revenue stream that we're exploring.

But our core business model is [00:25:00] very straightforward—it's a fee per ton of CO2 stored. And the reason we've gone with that model is because it's very transparent, it's very easy to understand, and it aligns our incentives with our customers' incentives. The more CO2 we can store efficiently, the better it is for them and the better it is for us.

What's the price point? What are you charging per ton?

So our target is to get below $100 per ton. That's where we see the market really starting to open up. Today, we're not quite there yet, but we're getting close. And as we scale and as our technology improves, we're confident that we can hit that sub-$100 per ton price point.

And that's really the magic number because at that point, it starts to make economic sense for a lot of industries to capture and store their CO2 rather than just emitting it. Particularly if there's a carbon price in place or if there are regulatory requirements around emissions reductions.

You mentioned earlier there's a societal cost of around $200 per ton. So you're [00:26:00] targeting well below that.

Exactly. And I think that's important because if the cost of capturing and storing CO2 is lower than the societal cost of emitting it, then there's a clear economic case for doing this. And that's what we're working towards.

I want to pivot a bit to the team and the operational side. You've got two co-founders who are geologists. How big is the team now? And what are the key functions that you've built out?

So we're around 50 people now, which is still relatively small for a deep tech company. But we've been very thoughtful about who we hire and making sure that we're building out the right capabilities.

So we have a strong R&D team—geologists, engineers, chemists—who are working on the technology and continuing to improve it. We have a projects team who are responsible for actually building and operating our facilities. We have a commercial team who are out there talking to customers and developing new partnerships. And then we have the usual support functions—finance, HR, legal.

But everyone in the company is [00:27:00] very hands-on. We don't have a lot of hierarchy. It's very much a startup culture where everyone's rolling up their sleeves and getting stuff done. And I think that's been key to our success so far.

Are you still based primarily in the UAE and Oman, or have you started setting up offices in other markets?

So we're primarily based in the UAE and Oman. That's where our main operations are. But we're starting to build out presence in other markets. So we have people in Europe now, we're looking at North America. But we're not trying to set up big offices everywhere. We're taking more of a lean approach where we have people on the ground in key markets, but the core team is still here in the region.

What's been the biggest challenge in building this company?

I think the biggest challenge has been managing expectations. Because with deep tech, things take time. You can't just spin up a facility overnight. You need to do the R&D, you need to get permits, you need to build infrastructure. And all of that takes time.

And so managing expectations [00:28:00] with investors, with customers, with the team—making sure everyone understands that this is a marathon, not a sprint—that's been one of the biggest challenges. But I think we've done a good job of setting realistic timelines and then delivering on those timelines.

The other big challenge has been attracting talent. Because we're doing something that's quite niche and quite technical, finding people who have the right skills and experience has been difficult. But we've been lucky to attract some incredible people who are passionate about what we're doing and want to be part of this journey.

How do you think about culture? What are the values that you're trying to instill in the team?

So for us, the core values are innovation, collaboration, and impact. Innovation because we're doing something that's never been done before at this scale. Collaboration because we can't do this alone—we need to work with partners, with customers, with the scientific community. And impact because at the end of the day, what we're doing is not just about building a business, it's about addressing one of the biggest challenges facing humanity.

And [00:29:00] so we try to instill those values in everything we do. We encourage people to challenge the status quo, to think differently, to not accept "that's the way it's always been done." We encourage collaboration across teams, across functions. And we constantly remind ourselves why we're doing this—to make a positive impact on the planet.

You mentioned earlier that you get pushback from academia, from other businesses saying "this isn't possible." How do you deal with that? How do you maintain conviction when people are telling you it can't be done?

It's tough. I won't lie. When you have people who are experts in their field telling you that what you're trying to do is impossible, it can be demoralizing. But I think the key is to stay focused on the data. We're not just theorizing about this. We're actually doing it. We have facilities that are operating. We have data that shows that this works.

And so when people say "it's not possible," we can say "actually, here's the data that shows that it is possible." And [00:30:00] I think that's been key to maintaining conviction. We're not just talking about this. We're actually doing it. And that makes all the difference.

The other thing is surrounding yourself with people who believe in what you're doing. Whether that's your co-founders, your team, your investors, your customers. Having that support system is absolutely critical when you're doing something that's this hard and this ambitious.

Let's talk about fundraising. You've raised venture capital. What's that journey been like? And how do you pitch a deep tech company like this to investors who might be more used to software businesses with faster returns?

So the fundraising journey has been interesting. I think the key has been finding investors who understand deep tech, who understand the timelines involved, and who have the patience and the capital to support a company like ours.

And luckily, there are investors out there who are specifically focused on climate tech and deep tech. So we've been able to attract capital from funds that understand [00:31:00] what we're doing and are aligned with our long-term vision. But it's definitely different from raising for a software company.

The pitch is different. Instead of talking about user growth and monthly recurring revenue, we're talking about tons of CO2 stored, we're talking about the scale of the climate challenge, we're talking about the trillion-dollar market opportunity. And I think for the right investors, that's actually more compelling because the impact potential is so much greater.

But we have been very selective about who we take money from. We've wanted to make sure that our investors are aligned with our vision and understand that this is a long-term play. And I think that's been key to our success so far.

What's the fundraising environment like right now for climate tech? Because I know there's been a lot of enthusiasm in recent years, but I'm curious if that's sustained or if it's cooled off a bit.

I think there's still a lot of enthusiasm for climate tech, but investors are being more selective. Early on, there was a lot of money being thrown at anything with [00:32:00] "climate" in the pitch deck. And I think we're now seeing a correction where investors are being more thoughtful about what they invest in.

They're looking for companies that have a clear path to commercialization, that have strong unit economics, that have proven technology. And I think that's actually healthy for the space because it means the companies that are getting funded are the ones that are more likely to succeed.

So yes, there's still capital available for climate tech, but you need to have your house in order. You need to be able to show traction, you need to be able to show that your technology works, and you need to be able to articulate a clear business model. And if you can do those things, there's definitely capital out there.

I want to talk about the regional dimension. You mentioned earlier that typically hard tech has been imported into this region. What does it mean to you to be building and exporting technology from the MENA region?

It means a lot. I think there's been this perception that innovation happens elsewhere and the region is just a consumer of technology. And [00:33:00] I think what we're showing is that you can develop world-class technology here. You can innovate here. And you can export that innovation to the rest of the world.

And I think that's really important for the region's future. Because if we want to diversify our economies, if we want to build knowledge-based economies, we need to be developing our own technologies. We can't just be relying on importing everything.

And I think the conditions are right for this to happen. We have incredible universities, we have access to capital, we have government support. What we need is more entrepreneurs who are willing to take the risk and build these hard tech companies. And I think as more success stories emerge, we'll see more people taking that leap.

What do you think needs to happen to catalyze more deep tech innovation in the region? What are the missing pieces?

I think we need more patient capital. Deep tech requires longer timelines than software, and we need investors who understand that and are willing to support companies [00:34:00] through that longer journey.

I think we need more talent. We need to attract and retain the best engineers, scientists, researchers. And that means creating an environment where they want to work—where they can do cutting-edge research, where they can have impact.

And I think we need more of a risk-taking culture. Traditionally, this region has been quite risk-averse. But innovation requires taking risks. It requires being willing to fail and learn from that failure. And I think we're starting to see that culture shift, but it needs to continue.

The other thing is we need more collaboration between academia and industry. Some of the best innovations come from that intersection. And I think there's an opportunity to strengthen those linkages here in the region.

You mentioned prizes earlier. You've won some significant prizes. How important have those been to the company's development?

They've been incredibly important, both from a validation perspective and from a capital perspective. When you win a prize like the Earthshot Prize or the XPRIZE, it validates what you're doing in the eyes of [00:35:00] the world. It shows that what you're building is real, that it has impact, that it's worthy of recognition.

And that helps with everything—it helps with fundraising, it helps with recruiting, it helps with business development. Because people take you more seriously when you've been recognized by these prestigious organizations.

And from a capital perspective, these prizes often come with significant funding, which for a capital-intensive business like ours, is incredibly valuable. It allows us to accelerate our development, to take more risks, to move faster.

So yes, these prizes have been game-changing for us. And I'm incredibly grateful to the organizations that have recognized our work.

Let's talk about 2024. What were the big milestones for the company this year?

So 2024 was a big year for us. We significantly scaled up our operations. We injected more CO2 than we had in all previous years combined. We expanded our partnerships—both with customers and with research institutions. We grew the team significantly.

And [00:36:00] we also started to see more commercial interest from outside the region, which is exciting because it validates that this technology has global applicability. So all in all, it was a very strong year for us.

Looking ahead to 2025 and beyond, what are you most excited about?

I'm most excited about taking this technology global. We've proven that it works here in the UAE and Oman. We've built the foundation. And now it's time to scale this and bring it to other parts of the world.

I'm excited about the new partnerships that we're developing, about the new projects that we're working on. And I'm excited about continuing to push the boundaries of what's possible with this technology.

The climate challenge is enormous, but I genuinely believe that we have the tools to address it. And I believe that 44 01 can play a significant role in that. So that's what keeps me motivated and excited every day.

Before we wrap up, I have to ask about the name. What does 44 01 mean?

So 44 01 is actually a reference to the [00:37:00] geological formation that we work with. Peridotite is classified as an ultramafic rock, and in geological classification systems, it's designated as 44 01. So it's literally the name of the rock that we're working with.

And we thought it was fitting because this rock is central to everything we do. It's what makes our technology possible. So we wanted to honor that in our name.

I love that. That's great. Talal, this has been fascinating. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk us through all of this. I think what you're building is incredibly important, and I'm excited to see where 44 01 goes from here.

Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure. And I'm excited for people to follow our journey as we continue to scale and hopefully make a meaningful impact on the climate challenge.

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