Music.
Where we have uncut and honest conversations about faith, life, and ministry.
You know, I don't know when I came up with that tagline, kind of just came up with it.
I don't know if it accurately describes the podcast or not, but I don't know. Sometimes it does.
Sometimes, sometimes maybe not. Sometimes maybe not.
I still think we're I still think we struggle a little bit to be as uncut as we want to be. Mm-hmm,
Probably which is why in the last few weeks I've told you,
Don't tell me don't prep me. Don't prep me. Yeah, tell me what we're gonna talk about, right?
Or I just popped a question to you. Mm-hmm, like the question I about Ryan Leakes book. Yeah,
And we just go ahead like that. I find that that's more helpful for me. Yeah, cuz I get in my head,
Sure. Yeah, right,
And it's and it's easy to get into your head because like, I don't know. It's easy to start kind of like trying to.
Yeah, play the crowd or try and anticipate someone else's arguments or objections to what you're saying,
Yep, who's not in the room and like you can never do that,
perfectly. Right. And so you just end up kind of playing defense without ever
actually saying anything. I think, was it on this last episode we got one of our
favorite compliments so far? Yes, it really was one of our favorite compliments. It was. I think we were called, I think we were called not
insufferable. Yes, most Christians are insufferable, but these guys you can
Listen to yeah, that's a good comment. I was a good comment. I really enjoyed that,
It's not that we we don't get encouraging comments and stuff like that But like, you know, that was a fun one
Well, this was and this was so we get some some really good comments from people that we know personally see every week.
Yeah, right, but this was from someone that we don't know. Yes, so they didn't have to know say something nice
And it's good. They weren't gonna be forced to look at space. Yes the face on Sunday, right?
Well, and also, at least the general response from the comment is that perhaps they don't
necessarily agree with us from a theological or worldview standpoint.
But they seem to have given the whole podcast a fairly reasonable listen.
So, you know, that's encouraging.
I have a question for you before we start. Yes. ever.
Get a new deodorant and feel like a new person.
New body wash I get a new body. Well, actually I just got a new body wash I just got a new deodorant. I kind of feel like a new person because I smell different.
That's uncut yes, that is uncut that is uncut right there. Yeah. No, I I got I I finally stitched old spice. I stopped being a high schooler,
um, and I axe I never did wear axe because I just I always thought it smelled like.
I don't know. There's always just this like Middle schoolers who have such bad BO and they just instead of taking showers. They just like spray themselves like covered up
Yeah, yeah smells up smells like covered up BO I had friends who would axe-bomb themselves in their car in high school right before getting out to go into school
I was like, I'll let you know that I feel like a new person today. Yeah, I,
Opened a new deodorant this morning. I switched to Harry's. What did you switch to? I actually switched to Old Spice,
Wow I like Old Spice still Mostly teasing, but yeah, no I switched,
Body wash Wow. I actually didn't know if I liked it for the first day because it was so different,
Well, here's the real question. Yeah for the day. Okay. Okay, and this will be the title of the,
Episode. Oh, all right When is it okay?
To leave a church. Yeah. So you're a person that goes to a church, not a pastor.
Those are different. Both have a different story.
An interesting story. Yeah, you're a person that goes to a church.
You are wondering if you should leave said church.
Yeah.
What are the good reasons to leave a church? What are the bad reasons to leave a church, and what are the implications that that whole
conversation has on the nature of Christian community?
Well, you know, I think this is going to be a really good topic because I think pastors
don't often feel a freedom to talk honestly about this topic.
Or the fear of hurting people's feelings or looking kind of insecure or trying to kind
of just like, there's just not a, there's a, there's, there's, it's a hard to have a
platform or a space where we can talk about this, where it doesn't come across in a way
that people take it poorly, I guess.
Maybe. Yeah, I think maybe it could come across sometimes as being like, whiny or us being bitter. Yeah.
About it. I'll tell you from my perspective that there are times in the last 19 years of ministry,
where people have left my church. I've pastored three different churches in 19 years,
years, where people have left my church and I've been really, really sad.
There's been times where people have left the church and I've been really, really angry.
There's been times when people have left the church and I've been really, really happy.
There have been times where people have left the church and I've been just neutral. Yeah. Like it
is what it is kind of thing. Yeah. All I think all of those things, they speak to the varied
degree of emotions that pastors at least experience when people leave the church. And,
a lot of it has to do with the reason or the circumstances that they leave the church
for me. So... Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's a really good question because I think it's gonna
allow us to dive into some stuff that maybe people need to hear, but don't have a context in which to
hear it. So... All right. Well, why don't we start like this? Why don't we say first, what is a good
reason to leave a church.
Heresy? Okay. And by heresy, I don't mean, like, you disagree with a secondary issue.
I mean, like, they're denying the Trinity or the personhood of Christ or...
How about we say it then, like, it's okay to leave a church if there is a disagreement
about a primary non-negotiable theological issue.
Yeah. Which most people, the technical term would be heresy.
Heresy, right, right, right. Some people call a lot of things heresy.
Not everything is heresy.
Sometimes it's just differing of opinion.
So, you brought up the Trinity. Yep.
Okay, so. The personhood of Christ. They'd be denying the Trinity of God. Right.
They'd be denying the personhood of Jesus Christ, which is a Trinitarian doctrine.
Scripture, scriptural integrity. Scriptural integrity, scriptural, yeah.
What else?
Faith or salvation by faith. Yeah, salvation by grace through faith. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, before I like widen the- The virgin birth. Virgin birth, yeah. Yeah.
Let's see, I'm starting to pot a little bit.
Okay, let's see, so primary,
what about, I'm trying to think of like things that I would pull out of the creed,
That would be the antithesis to the creed.
I mean like. How about like creation and evolution?
Let's see, so like I do think that there is like a tipping point in like, because that
I put as a secondary issue.
But if you like, I guess I would willing, I wasn't going to go there quite there yet.
Like if you're in a place of where you disagree with I don't know.
60, 50%, I don't know where the percentage would be, but a high percentage of the secondary,
teachings of the church, and you're not interested in budging, and it's not a, you must leave,
but the question raises is like, why would you stay?
Is this the best place for you? So what are some other examples of secondary issues that maybe are a little bit more practical
and yeah, those are the ones that people, those are the ones that people talk about
the most church government, church government, sign gifts.
So like tongues and stuff like that, worship style, worship style, um, view on creation.
I guess if that's going to be a big one for you or, or a big one for the church, um, I
that could go either way. Methods, anything that has to do with methods.
Methods, Calvinism, Arminianism. Yeah, that's a good one. If that's like a... Predestination versus free will.
Yeah, right. That whole dispensationalism versus covenantal theology. Right.
But like, I mean, I don't know that very... There are some churches that make those pretty big
pounding points and theological distinctions. But I wouldn't say the average church makes
some of those niche things. Some social theological issues.
Yeah. Like the nature of marriage or sexual integrity, orientation, acceptedness of, I don't know, things like that.
Yeah. Well.
Though secondary or primary? That's a hard one because we've talked about our own personal
stances on sexual identity and definition of marriage and all of that. And at the current,
point in church history, it is a bit of a litmus test to a lot of other things.
Yes. And so if a church has a non-biblical, what we would call a non-biblical interpretation of,
sexual ethics, chances are there's going to be some other things that are going to be,
you know, kind of leads into a number of other things. So that one, while, like, I wouldn't say
that, like, if you go to a church and you don't personally hold to the convictions, same sexual
convictions of that church.
I like I know that there's I know because I know of people who've done that,
Like on both ends of the spectrums that have stayed and people that have left. Yeah, either they go to a church
That's more liberal than they are on that topic or they themselves are more liberal than the church is,
And they've stayed so I don't and I and I've seen that kind of work.
So I don't want to say that that like rises to like a primary you should probably leave but
But that does, because it can,
because it directly affects your relationship with your pastors, or how the pastor,
a pastor could speak into your life
on a pretty important topic.
Yeah.
That one, that one's kind of a gray one for me. Where does it sit for you?
I would say the same. Yeah.
Yeah, I would say, like, I think it would depend, it's an interesting kind of conversation, place to put myself
in because my entire adult life I've been a pastor, I haven't been a parishioner, so
I don't know how I would respond, quite honestly.
But I think it's like, how does your pastor steward the disagreement between you?
Are they willing to allow, to still give you space to be.
To openly disagree with them? will they still pastor you through a different issue?
With faithfulness and integrity and gentleness and compassion and truth. Yep.
Because you disagree with them on another issue. Yes.
You know, so. I feel like it would be, this is just my, I feel like it would be easier to be
conservative in your sexual ethics and interpretation of scripture attending a more
liberal church than it would be to have a liberal interpretation attending a more
conservative church. But that might just be my perspective because of me being a pastor, of
seeing it being... just seeing the pastoral shepherding issues that arise of being staunch,
not just like... because what I'm not... because I do want people to be able to come to our church
and who are like, you know, don't really know kind of,
and I'm sure that we do have people who maybe disagree with us on our interpretation
of the Bible sexual ethics.
I know we do.
And so like, it's not that I don't want them here.
No, I absolutely want them here.
Right, but it puts you in a difficult spot if we get into a pastoral counseling
or into a place where we're like, that becomes the issue.
Yeah.
So. Okay. So, I mean, we use the theological disagreement answer.
As kind of a. Like a jumping off point. Springboard point.
You know, what are some other reasons that it would be okay?
Or what are some reasons that it would not be okay to leave a church?
Personally, I think that like some of those secondary issues like,
Because some people I know, I was in a conversation with you once. I think it was
very early on in my time here. Someone came up to us and asked us a niche theological question.
Wanted to know before they like started coming here. They wanted to know, like,
think they asked about perseverance of the saints. Oh, that's right.
And so, and like, they wanted to know that very specific. They asked about like once saved always saved. Yeah, the back of the sanctuary after a worship night. Yeah. Yeah
Yeah, they wanted to know that very specific theological conclusion,
Before they were willing to come to like a Sunday worship and and explore being part of the church, right?
And I was like I mean The funny thing is, is that we probably agree with him. Probably.
I don't know. Maybe. I honestly don't know because he was really clear because he kept saying to me,
I remember this very clearly. He was like, he was quoting the verse way out of context,
but he was like, you know, how can we walk together if we don't agree?
Yeah, right. Whatever that, whatever reference that is, I don't even remember, but like, how can any two
walk together unless they would agree. Using that as the, like, well, if we don't agree on
everything, we can't walk together in Christian unity. And honestly, I feel like Perseverance of
the Saints, Calvinism versus Arminianism, unless the church's identity hangs on those theological
distinctives, but I don't think, unless you're going to a church that's specifically, like,
that is like a tent pole, like, that is like, we talk about tulip, or we talk about, like,
I don't know what the, what the.
Equivalent to tulip is in the Arminian camp. There isn't one. We don't need acronyms.
All right. We just believe the Bible. Get out of here.
So unless that's like a tentpole of the church, you don't really need, I don't think I have very,
like, if someone comes up to me and they're like, Luke, I feel like you need to agree with me,
or I need to agree on your stance of like Calvinism or Arminianism in order for me to be a,
to sit under you as a pastor. I was like, I don't know that you do. Yeah. Like if that's the one
thing, you know, or so those it's kind of a, I guess I put those like secondary issues as like,
are, are there a, just an absolute overwhelming, a ton of them,
which at that point you're probably just attending the wrong denomination or the
wrong brand of church or whatever,
or the church you're attending has made some of those like maybe as like primary,
kind of cultural tent poles to the church and you're just not willing to deal with that. Um,
so theological reasons, but in a like major or massively cumulated category.
And what would be another reason?
I think that there are actually, there are practical reasons to leave a church that are okay.
Like we've got some people who attend here who I know drive 45 minutes.
They pass 30 churches to get here.
And while that feels really good, like, oh, they pass 30 churches to come here.
They feel like it's worth to come here.
It would be really difficult for me to be upset with them. Yeah.
To be upset with them. Yes. I would be upset. Yes. But I wouldn't be upset with them. Right.
Because if they decided, you know, we would like to go to a church that's closer to us.
Do you have a, this is kind of somewhat as a side question, but I think a pertinent question.
Do you have any theological conviction to the locality of church and ministry? So like,
Like, should you, if you have a faithful church near you,
should you prioritize that church over a church that you maybe like more that's farther away
but not connected to your local community?
I think it's a hard question to answer because the acceptability of distances
is a little bit different for everyone.
You know, like for some people, 15 minutes away is a long way,
and for other people, an hour away is not too far away.
I think where that question comes down for me is,
I think we do still want to attend churches that generally represent our church culture values,
our own core values. obviously are theological convictions. So if the church that is right across the street from me,
is a universalist church, I'm not gonna choose it. Right, right.
Just cause it's close. So I think that we shouldn't discount those preferential things.
But I do think that if you're passing churches that you.
Can get along with theologically, that are a reasonable distance, that make sense.
I do question a little bit about the picking and choosing in an a la carte way the,
the aspects of community that you want.
Yeah.
Like I think that there is, when the distance of your church begins to make it difficult,
to meaningfully engage in the regular community of that particular church,
then I think that there,
you need to look at attending a church that's closer to you.
Whether or not the church is like a picture-perfect example of the church that you wanna go to or not,
if you're so far away from it
that you're not able to meaningfully engage in community, then I think you need to make a different choice.
Because I think that's an extraordinarily overlooked but extraordinarily important aspect,
to attending a specific church is the ability to engage in the community of that church.
Not just, are you able to be there on Sundays, are you able to be there meaningfully
as a full participant in other days of the week even.
Right, or like community groups, small groups, you know, missional events.
You know, yeah. Ability to serve regularly, like, oh, I just can't serve because I live so far away,
It didn't take me so long to get in, you know.
So yeah, I do think that that is something that would be, I think, a reasonable thing
to change churches over.
Yeah. What about like, did you mention style in the last kind of like, like,
Yeah. Yeah. Like style, cultural values, stuff like that. You know, like, I think that that is,
I don't think we should overlook that. Yeah. Sometimes I get a little bit like,
so the very first church that I served was a really small, like 20 people on a Sunday.
Yeah. Classic country church. Do you guys have an organ? We had an organ, but no organist.
Okay. Yep. Do you guys have hymnals? We had a hymnal, and we played a digital hymnal.
Digital organ played the music to the hymns we sung.
I was 21 years old.
I was just married. I was a baby. Did you wear a suit?
No, I didn't. I wore a tie sometimes, at least the first couple of weeks, just to get a sense of like
like the job, you know? Man, we could tell some stories. That would be a fun podcast episode,
early ministry experiences.
I was gonna say, oh, so, you know, I was 21. My wife was 21.
The next closest person to us, I think it was like 35 years older than us. Yeah.
Like a whole adult above us, you know? And, you know, there were some times where we would,
on a Sunday morning, we were there for two years. It was a great experience, honestly.
We were there for two years and there would be some times where we would get a family who would come,
and just like pop in.
And they had kids, young kids.
And they would walk in, they would sit down And they would say, okay, do you have?
Sunday school? You have Sunday school, where's the rest of the kids?
And we would just have to say like, we don't have any of that because we don't have any of those people.
Right. Right. And you could see. See them like go shut down.
You could just see it on their face and you knew it. Yeah.
This was the first and the last time. That would be. That you were going to see them. Yeah.
And so.
So the question then is like, does style or like makeup matter?
And I would say like, I think it kind of does.
It kind of does. I think it kind of does. I don't, I want to say it doesn't because.
Right, I hate that it does that because it ends up being like for us,
it was like just this vicious circle. Yeah.
Like we were never gonna have any kids because we never had any kids. out.
We... The church plant, different problem. Same problem, different demographic. Church plant in
a city, not a lot of families end up in the city, a lot of newly marrieds without kids,
dinks, double income, no kids, end up in the city. And so we would get families who... Well,
first off, I'm gonna toot my own horn, I was fairly good at building a really good website,
and a social media presence for the church. And so people would look at the website,
they would look at what we had, they'd look at the sermons, and they're like,
oh, this seems like a really well-established church. They would show up to sanctuary,
to the service, and there would be maybe 10 people, 15 people there, and there would be one
kid, which was the pastor's kid, in the kid's room, and they were like.
This is not as big or as established as your online presence led us to think.
Thank you very much, Luke says.
Thank you, thank you. I did my job. And it was the same thing. They were just like,
we really wanna be at a church. I had that conversation so many times. We wanna be at a
church where there are other kids for our kid to be part of. And that's not an inconsequential thing.
As much as I wanted to say.
If you would stay, we would have kids, that whole cycle. So... Yeah, right.
That's kind of... Yeah, that's always a hard place for a pastor to kind of sit in that like,
I get it, I get it, but please stay.
Right, exactly. Yes, I do think it is a consideration and I don't begrudge people,
for making decisions like that, because I get it. I've got kids now, I didn't then,
10, but it would be really difficult for me to be a part of a place or a community like
that. That didn't have a space for your kids.
Yeah. Yeah.
So, yeah, I do think it matters, like the fit, the makeup of the church, although I
don't think it's the primary thing.
I don't think it's an insurmountable type of thing.
Because I think like, and a lot maybe depends on you as a person.
I guess I'm like, like for me, if I was picking a church, like I care more, like I care more
about the preaching than I do the worship style or the quality of the worship.
Like if the musicians are fantastic or not. I would, I would rather go to a church that has really solid preaching that I feel is
like, honoring, faithful, and is pushing me to grow, rather than go to a church that has like, what I would consider the best
worship, musical worship, but a pretty watery sermon. Like, you,
know, it's where do you prioritize some of those things?
I guess that depends on you as an individual.
Yeah. Yeah. So So I think what one of the things that I this whole conversation brings up some feelings
and some emotions in me because I don't want to say that it's I don't want to say that
it's easy every time for people to leave church and go to a different church.
No it's not.
But I would be willing to bet that it is, in most cases, more difficult for the pastor,
than it is for the people to leave.
Well, maybe it's not fair. I don't know. But what I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't
often think that people rightly weigh how difficult it is when people leave your church,
especially for reasons that are like, that's your reason? Like, okay, I get it. If you've got like,
like major, major concerns or qualms or disagreements, but that's your reason for leaving?
Like I pour my life into you, I serve you, like I walk you through really, really difficult,
circumstances or situations in your life.
I like expend an incredible amount of physical, emotional, mental, spiritual energy.
And then you're like, yeah, we just kind of felt like it was time for a change. Yeah.
Is like a kick in the stomach. Right. Like it really, as much as we try to not make it about us,
because it's not. It's not. It is not about us.
Right. We're not robotic. No. And we do put ourselves into ministry.
Of course, yeah. We try and lead from vulnerability, try to lead with the personal giftings we've been given,
like, and we try invest. Yeah, we don't avoid friendship.
Right. So that we can lead, we invest in friendship so that we can lead.
And so these are our friends that are leaving.
Yeah. And I had a pastor friend once tell me, actually, we just had lunch with him.
And he said, and I think it was actually something that another pastor had told him, that like,
when they are your friends, but they're not your friends.
Like the people that you serve in ministry, they're your friends, they're also not.
You are their pastor.
Like and if you see your primary role in their life as one of being a friend, then you're,
going to get friend type treatment.
And if you see your role primarily as one as a pastor, you're going to get your interaction
with them and your expectations of them, especially in moments of them leaving, is going to be different.
Yes. So that's still a really hard dynamic for me because I do consider myself friends with,
these people. Some people...
And like some of them I'm much better friends with than others.
Sure. Some of my... my best friends come to church here. And so what if they were to leave? How would I?
How do you handle that? Yeah.
Sometimes not well. Yeah. Like for a lot of people, particularly if you're, you know, if you're Christian,
you're attending church, large portion of your social circle ends up being made up out of the
church you attend. And the complexity is, is that that remains true for us, except we also work at
the church we attend and are responsible for the church we attend. Yeah, responsible, right.
Um, yeah, I, that whole friend dynamic is, is difficult.
Um, and it's, it's a hard, cause there are these like invisible lines that you'll
like run up to and like one of the, one of the easiest ways to encounter one of
those lines is like, I know that this is sometimes the part of, sometimes sometimes people's a pastime. I don't want to be of like of Christian people
who have been very churched, there is this pastime of...
Backseat pastoring a church, of kind of like, it is easy to drive home with your family or your
friends or whoever you came to church with, and like, what do you think about that sermon today?
What's that? And kind of like, armchair critiques, some of the leadership decisions or stylistic
decisions that a church is making, which when, like, you would never actually say those things
things to the pastor or to the leadership, because at the end of the day, you're not
actually all that convinced that you're right, you're just having something to talk about.
But there's been once or twice where I've been in conversation and somebody will slip
into that, and I'm like, hey, I'm here.
I made that decision or I'm, you know, I'm, you know, when you're talking kind of somewhat,
not harshly, but critically of the church and its direction, I'm like, Hey, so it.
And we're not infallible.
No, no, we don't always make the right decision, but there's, yeah, there, there, there becomes
like a point of like, man, you know, like I do this all day.
Every day for the last two decades of my life. I'm not perfect.
I'm not infallible, but I'm not an idiot. Right.
Like I know what I'm doing. Um, so yeah, like, um, what was I going to say? Um, it's gone.
Is it okay to leave a church because you're not getting fed?
That is like the most, that is like, that is the equal in my mind, that is the
equivalent to coming up to your, your, your boyfriend, girlfriend, and saying,
Hey, you're really great.
I think we just should be friends though.
Like it like that is how that feels to me as it's a answer. That's a non answer in,
like it at least it feels that way to me because I,
Have a hard time believing a lot of people it's like maybe that is true Maybe,
But a lot of times this is this is some my this is some of my personal conviction
So I think a lot of times people who are saying that there is something underneath of that,
that is a pattern or like that that is happening kind of cyclically in their life and in their
spiritual life and that is the only way they know how to articulate it but that is not actually
what's happening. My opinion is that a lot of people, particularly people who.
If there's a pattern of coming to a church, oh my gosh, this is such, this is the church I was
looking for, like all these things that you found. Love the church, get involved,
Do stick around for...
Five years, three years. And then eventually over that period of time, you begin to become
discontent with either the same issues that you had at your last church or a new set of issues.
And then, or you just kind of generally start to feel kind of like the honeymoon period wear off.
And then you kind of just hit a bit of a spiritual doldrum. You're kind of,
you don't feel like you're growing anymore in your spiritual life.
Life, and your solution to that is like, well, then I must not be getting fed.
I need to go to another church that's gonna help me feel like my spiritual life is on fire.
I'm sure I've talked a lot about this type of language on this podcast, but like that
constantly chasing that spiritual high of like, how do I get my spiritual life to feel
like I'm on fire for God, I'm moving forward, I'm going from mountaintop to mountaintop.
And if my church isn't helping me feel that way... They're not feeding me.
Not feeding me. And my word to people who are perennially in that cycle of, you know,
finding new teachers, new churches, new conferences, is that actually the Lord needs to bring you
into a place where you're not feeling on fire to refine you into a more mature Christian.
And so that's not everybody that comes up to us and says, like, I'm not being fed here.
But I think it is a large majority of people where, or it's a, I'm not being fed here.
Could I've sometimes seen used as like a scapegoat for.
Uh, there's conflict or accountability. I want to avoid.
Yep. Um, that's what I mean by like, what I'm saying, like, this is the, like the
equivalent of the, like God told me I just need to be single right now.
Yeah. God just told me I need to be single right now, or let's just be friends.
It's, it's an answer that is it's, or it's, it's not you, it's me.
Uh, it's, it's this avoiding of the actual thing, uh, in order to just come
into what feels kind of acceptable and okay to say.
In those spaces, I don't think that's okay, because I think there's actually something deeper
that needs addressed.
If you're not getting fed, you know, I know pastors and people who would say,
well, it's not like you need to be feeding yourself then, like, particularly if you're a mature Christian, like.
One of the things that I was gonna say is I've never met a person who has a vibrant and alive personal devotional life who has
made the excuse that my church is not feeding me.
I haven't, period. Like, I can't say this about every church, because I don't know every church, but I know
here at Conduit, the two preachers that primarily preach here, we preach the truth of scripture,
We proclaim it, communicate it as clearly and as faithfully as anyone that I've seen or experienced.
And so if you're not getting fed, it's not because there's not a meal being served.
It's because you're not eating it.
The meal has been, the meal is served. It is on the table. Whether or not you take a big honking bite,
chew it long enough for it to get down inside of you, is on you. Yeah.
Not on me. Yeah.
So if you're not getting fed, it's cause you're not eating. Yes.
Not because there's nothing there to eat.
Yep.
Cause there's meat to eat here. There is. But also, maybe there's this just consumer...
We've talked about consumerism in the church before, but there might be this expectation
of like, all right, give me the adrenaline shot to keep me going.
Come in... Like, if I'm not feeling close to Jesus by Tuesday, the church must not be doing it.
Right. I think your primary point is, I think probably the most accurate one
is that people often run to that excuse,
when they feel the warm fuzzies of being on fire begin to fizzle.
I've often had people ask me if we can start a Wednesday service,
because they feel like the spiritual high
that they get on Sunday fades away too quickly.
And if there was just a Wednesday service that they could come and consume,
they would be on a spiritual high from Sunday to Wednesday. Wednesday would get them through to the next Sunday,
and they could just jump from peak to peak to peak.
Rather than.
You know actually live life out in a broken world and on mission for the Lord,
Experiencing the same types of things that Jesus and Peter and Paul and all the Apostles and disciples experience themselves,
But so yeah, I do think it is I generally think that it is a cop-out for something that's happening deeper within them very few. I,
I mean, there are certainly places where you can attend there and you're not going to get fed because the word's not being proclaimed, right?
The funny thing is, though, is that a lot of times those places, they're, they're doing something else that a lot of people mistake as being fed.
Yeah. Right. Like I'm thinking like the motivational. Right.
Sermon, the motivational Ted talk sermon. Well, it gets you, it brings it like makes you emotionally.
Right and you think that and you you think that's being fed and so you will stick around but you're not actually being fed You're being,
Shot up. It's empty spiritual calories. Yeah,
It is empty calories. It does nothing for your soul, but it makes you feel full. Mm-hmm. It's a deception,
Of the enemy. Yes, that keeps us away from feeding on the bread of life. Mm-hmm,
Mm-hmm What about?
Unhealthy churches.
So we've talked about, like, we talked about theology, and it was coming into my mind that,
there are probably churches out there that, at least on paper, and maybe in reality, do
check a lot of theological boxes.
Is there a way, though, that they can still check those theological boxes, maybe even
preach the Bible faithfully, but be unhealthy in some aspect, and would that merit leaving?
10 Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think you can be really unhealthy relationally, although.
I think to experience unhealth in another area would lead me to believe that you're,
they're probably experiencing a diminished like proclamation of the scripture as well,
like, because it's very difficult to, to feast on the Word of God, and then to be
in the carrier around a bunch of relational unhealth. Like the Word of God, rightly digested
into your soul is going to move you towards the reconciliation and redemption of relationships.
And so I think that there is a theological backstop to that, but yeah, I think that,
to have an unhealthy church, maybe relationally, to have a church where there's the unhealthy use of
of finances or resources, power, power dynamics.
But therein, again, I think that there's a theological backstop to that as well.
But those certainly are not secondary issues. You know, I think you hit on, like, the way you said that triggered in my thought, in my own mind,
is that if there's some unhealth in relational or structure or the way the church is operating,
that they're probably not... There's some diminishment of the preaching of the word.
I think you're very right there. A church maybe is preaching part of the counsel of God very
faithfully, but is not preaching or receiving part of the counsel of God that would be the,
corrective source for the problems that they're experiencing. So that can be almost tricky from
the outside because, oh, they're preaching the parts of the Bible they're maybe preaching,
maybe they're doing a good job at, but they're maybe avoiding entire sections of the Bible.
Or they've got certain fruits of the Spirit, but they've ignored others. So that can be
a tricky one sometimes.
Right. We were having lunch today with two pastor friends, and they made a comment about
something that they have trying to maybe try to communicate as a cultural reality in their
own church is that this is a 70-30 church. And what they meant by that was like.
70, you're gonna stay probably if you like 70%. You're gonna like 70% of what we do,
and you're gonna hate 30% of what we do. Stay for the 70, embrace, and then like,
just deal with the 30. The implicit reality there is that there is literally no church,
on this side of heaven that is perfect. Even the churches that you... Like the perfect church for
you. There are people who tell us all the time, conduit is... I love conduit. It's my best church
church I've ever been in, it's my favorite church.
It always makes me so scared. It really does, yep, it's like, oh boy.
Because I know conduit better than anyone and it's not perfect.
It's far, far from it. But.
The reality is that like you, it's okay to not love every aspect of your church and still stay.
In fact, I think that's a better understanding of the nature of the church and the nature of
Christian community than running around your city or your county trying to find the church
that's perfect in every way and never settling, never putting down roots and creating,
long-standing relationships in one place because you haven't found the church that's perfect yet.
None of them are. Find a church that's like 70% perfect for you and stay.
Yeah. And you know, the church is not supposed to fit our mold or fit into our box. We're supposed
to be molded by the church. Church is supposed to be informative. It's supposed to be transformative.
It's supposed to form us. And if we're looking for the church that fits our perfect ideal or
form of the church. We've found a church that is of our own making and is never going to challenge grow us.
Like, you know, what was a red I was talking with a Pastor at one point and we were having a conversation. I didn't know him particularly well,
But he said something that was like a major red flag in my heart and he said yeah
Like I've pretty much got the church running exactly how I think it should run,
And that scared me morning Morning, I was just like because I think people sometimes think that like pastors get to just decide and make
unilateral decisions and form a church to be exactly how they want it to be.
That's not really healthy leadership, in my opinion. Like, church does not run,
according to my preferences, and sometimes that's really hard to guard
against as a pastor, but we're trying to let the church be the church, and
And sometimes the church has aspects or parts of it that are not in line of our personality or
our own preference. And that's something I think that gets lost. Do you see that, feel that?
Yeah, I do. Yep. It's a good point.
Yeah. What do you, what do you wish people knew on the other side of of the like church leaving dynamic.
Like, what do you wish people knew when they do make that decision to leave
or people are watching people leave your church?
Like, what do you wish people knew about that from your standpoint as a pastor?
I think probably one of the like similar to what I already said was that please like don't
just don't just disengage from the relationships that have been formative for you.
So don't discount how important you have become in other people's lives here, and how important they feel in yours.
If you're going to leave.
Please make the effort to tell People that you're leaving to say goodbye to say goodbye, right?
Don't just say don't just don't just disappear and then I haven't seen you for like four or five weeks,
And then I call and be like hey haven't seen you for a way just checking in oh it took you that long to notice,
We're going to another church. Yeah Okay, that's super hurtful even for you like that passive-aggressive statement
And I'm sorry to hear that.
I wish I would have known.
And maybe we could have talked about that. Maybe we could have talked about that
before you obviously let some bitterness settle into your heart towards me,
or towards the church or towards wherever.
So yeah, I would say what I would want people to know is I think there's a lot of value in leaving the right way,
by talking to the people that have invested in your life. And I think that if you stand on good, solid ground,
for the reasons that you're leaving,
I'm gonna pray for you and encourage you and love you on your way out the door.
Yeah. I wanna do those things anyway. Sure. I try to do those things anyway.
I don't always do a great job at them, but at least be supportive.
I'm not always supportive of people's decision to leave the church,
because I think a lot of those excuses are bull crap.
And because I want to pastor their hearts, I'm not going to agree with decisions
that I think are harmful.
But if you have good reason, then yeah, I'm going to support it and like encourage you in it.
So come and tell me your great reasons.
Yeah. Come and tell me. Yeah. We would 100. Yeah. big one is like.
Have a conversation. We would 100% rather have a conversation when we walk away disagreeing
than just have you disappear. Give us the opportunity to, particularly if there's
something that you're upset about or you're hurt about, give us the opportunity to,
respond gracefully and apologize. Yeah, work towards reconciliation. You know that biblical
concept of forgiveness and reconciliation, right? Like,
yeah, I think the other thing I would add, and this is maybe I don't know, this is this is tangential somewhat, but I
think it's maybe important is that if someone leaves badly, like they leave kind of dropping bombs, or they leave kind of
with a bad story. Sometimes what I've had is when that happens, people will say,
hey, like someone who's still attending the church will come and say, hey, I talked with
so-and-so who left and they said such and such. Like, or sometimes they'll just come and say,
like or why are people why is why are they leaving or something like that.
Because of like our position or authority because of Kindness because of confidentiality because of like what is godly,
Oftentimes we have to swallow our side of the story. Yep And not talk about it,
Yep And so and what that creates if you're watching from the outside as you can see someone who's being very vocal
vocal about their side of the story, and the church is being silent.
And some people will take that as like... An admission of guilt.
An admission of guilt.
And what that actually is, is that standing faithful and not willing to compromise on
confidentiality, inappropriate speech, being unkind, crossing professional and boundaries
that we feel like are appropriate, because somebody might be able to go onto social media
and publicly post a video or make a big post rant about us personally or the church at
large, but that would be highly inappropriate for us to respond to that.
And so I would say, just remember every time you tear down the church or its leaders unreasonably,
you do damage to Christ.
Yes. Yeah. Or if you're reading that, you're like a spectator,
like be actually happy that the church isn't responding in kind,
right? Silence isn't, isn't necessarily admission.
That's a right in a world where like transparency has become like such a buzz
word and a high value. Actually, transparency is not actually always appropriate.
It would be very inappropriate for us to disclose things that are not ours to
disclose. Yeah, correct. So, so somewhat in topic, but yes, slightly different kind of leaving situation. Right. So,
anything else we want to say about that? I don't know. I don't think so. Yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe you
guys have any questions about any of that or comments, you
can leave a comment on the video or shoot us a text message or or whatever, 716-201-0507 is our texting line here.
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