WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:13.840 Music. 00:00:14.070 --> 00:00:21.011 Where we have uncut and honest conversations about faith, life, and ministry. 00:00:22.166 --> 00:00:28.204 You know, I don't know when I came up with that tagline, kind of just came up with it. 00:00:28.501 --> 00:00:36.606 I don't know if it accurately describes the podcast or not, but I don't know. Sometimes it does. 00:00:37.026 --> 00:00:38.606 Sometimes, sometimes maybe not. Sometimes maybe not. 00:00:39.069 --> 00:00:46.306 I still think we're I still think we struggle a little bit to be as uncut as we want to be. Mm-hmm, 00:00:47.586 --> 00:00:53.506 Probably which is why in the last few weeks I've told you, 00:00:55.219 --> 00:00:59.246 Don't tell me don't prep me. Don't prep me. Yeah, tell me what we're gonna talk about, right? 00:00:59.721 --> 00:01:05.599 Or I just popped a question to you. Mm-hmm, like the question I about Ryan Leakes book. Yeah, 00:01:07.003 --> 00:01:12.706 And we just go ahead like that. I find that that's more helpful for me. Yeah, cuz I get in my head, 00:01:13.476 --> 00:01:15.204 Sure. Yeah, right, 00:01:16.706 --> 00:01:23.866 And it's and it's easy to get into your head because like, I don't know. It's easy to start kind of like trying to. 00:01:26.052 --> 00:01:31.146 Yeah, play the crowd or try and anticipate someone else's arguments or objections to what you're saying, 00:01:32.075 --> 00:01:34.506 Yep, who's not in the room and like you can never do that, 00:01:35.099 --> 00:01:38.826 perfectly. Right. And so you just end up kind of playing defense without ever 00:01:38.826 --> 00:01:44.466 actually saying anything. I think, was it on this last episode we got one of our 00:01:44.466 --> 00:01:55.386 favorite compliments so far? Yes, it really was one of our favorite compliments. It was. I think we were called, I think we were called not 00:01:55.625 --> 00:01:59.746 insufferable. Yes, most Christians are insufferable, but these guys you can 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:04.086 Listen to yeah, that's a good comment. I was a good comment. I really enjoyed that, 00:02:04.528 --> 00:02:10.346 It's not that we we don't get encouraging comments and stuff like that But like, you know, that was a fun one 00:02:10.460 --> 00:02:17.346 Well, this was and this was so we get some some really good comments from people that we know personally see every week. 00:02:18.607 --> 00:02:25.046 Yeah, right, but this was from someone that we don't know. Yes, so they didn't have to know say something nice 00:02:25.046 --> 00:02:29.146 And it's good. They weren't gonna be forced to look at space. Yes the face on Sunday, right? 00:02:29.146 --> 00:02:35.586 Well, and also, at least the general response from the comment is that perhaps they don't 00:02:35.586 --> 00:02:41.320 necessarily agree with us from a theological or worldview standpoint. 00:02:41.666 --> 00:02:46.694 But they seem to have given the whole podcast a fairly reasonable listen. 00:02:47.037 --> 00:02:48.963 So, you know, that's encouraging. 00:02:49.386 --> 00:02:54.797 I have a question for you before we start. Yes. ever. 00:02:55.913 --> 00:02:58.083 Get a new deodorant and feel like a new person. 00:03:00.306 --> 00:03:06.562 New body wash I get a new body. Well, actually I just got a new body wash I just got a new deodorant. I kind of feel like a new person because I smell different. 00:03:10.883 --> 00:03:20.163 That's uncut yes, that is uncut that is uncut right there. Yeah. No, I I got I I finally stitched old spice. I stopped being a high schooler, 00:03:20.921 --> 00:03:29.599 um, and I axe I never did wear axe because I just I always thought it smelled like. 00:03:34.163 --> 00:03:44.343 I don't know. There's always just this like Middle schoolers who have such bad BO and they just instead of taking showers. They just like spray themselves like covered up 00:03:44.343 --> 00:03:54.163 Yeah, yeah smells up smells like covered up BO I had friends who would axe-bomb themselves in their car in high school right before getting out to go into school 00:03:54.163 --> 00:03:57.857 I was like, I'll let you know that I feel like a new person today. Yeah, I, 00:03:59.163 --> 00:04:04.942 Opened a new deodorant this morning. I switched to Harry's. What did you switch to? I actually switched to Old Spice, 00:04:09.283 --> 00:04:16.963 Wow I like Old Spice still Mostly teasing, but yeah, no I switched, 00:04:18.527 --> 00:04:23.874 Body wash Wow. I actually didn't know if I liked it for the first day because it was so different, 00:04:25.243 --> 00:04:32.163 Well, here's the real question. Yeah for the day. Okay. Okay, and this will be the title of the, 00:04:34.074 --> 00:04:38.923 Episode. Oh, all right When is it okay? 00:04:40.132 --> 00:04:46.222 To leave a church. Yeah. So you're a person that goes to a church, not a pastor. 00:04:48.542 --> 00:04:50.222 Those are different. Both have a different story. 00:04:52.862 --> 00:04:55.805 An interesting story. Yeah, you're a person that goes to a church. 00:04:57.281 --> 00:05:01.422 You are wondering if you should leave said church. 00:05:02.134 --> 00:05:01.810 Yeah. 00:05:03.097 --> 00:05:14.502 What are the good reasons to leave a church? What are the bad reasons to leave a church, and what are the implications that that whole 00:05:14.502 --> 00:05:19.697 conversation has on the nature of Christian community? 00:05:20.048 --> 00:05:26.440 Well, you know, I think this is going to be a really good topic because I think pastors 00:05:26.530 --> 00:05:33.382 don't often feel a freedom to talk honestly about this topic. 00:05:33.382 --> 00:05:46.302 Or the fear of hurting people's feelings or looking kind of insecure or trying to kind 00:05:46.302 --> 00:05:51.262 of just like, there's just not a, there's a, there's, there's, it's a hard to have a 00:05:51.262 --> 00:05:59.422 platform or a space where we can talk about this, where it doesn't come across in a way 00:05:59.422 --> 00:06:01.945 that people take it poorly, I guess. 00:06:02.251 --> 00:06:13.062 Maybe. Yeah, I think maybe it could come across sometimes as being like, whiny or us being bitter. Yeah. 00:06:15.016 --> 00:06:28.226 About it. I'll tell you from my perspective that there are times in the last 19 years of ministry, 00:06:29.294 --> 00:06:33.906 where people have left my church. I've pastored three different churches in 19 years, 00:06:33.906 --> 00:06:45.002 years, where people have left my church and I've been really, really sad. 00:06:45.946 --> 00:06:53.033 There's been times where people have left the church and I've been really, really angry. 00:06:53.426 --> 00:07:00.405 There's been times when people have left the church and I've been really, really happy. 00:07:02.746 --> 00:07:08.026 There have been times where people have left the church and I've been just neutral. Yeah. Like it 00:07:08.026 --> 00:07:16.420 is what it is kind of thing. Yeah. All I think all of those things, they speak to the varied 00:07:16.690 --> 00:07:21.957 degree of emotions that pastors at least experience when people leave the church. And, 00:07:23.496 --> 00:07:27.306 a lot of it has to do with the reason or the circumstances that they leave the church 00:07:27.421 --> 00:07:36.026 for me. So... Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's a really good question because I think it's gonna 00:07:36.026 --> 00:07:43.546 allow us to dive into some stuff that maybe people need to hear, but don't have a context in which to 00:07:43.546 --> 00:07:51.386 hear it. So... All right. Well, why don't we start like this? Why don't we say first, what is a good 00:07:51.386 --> 00:07:55.866 reason to leave a church. 00:08:01.288 --> 00:08:08.300 Heresy? Okay. And by heresy, I don't mean, like, you disagree with a secondary issue. 00:08:08.949 --> 00:08:14.251 I mean, like, they're denying the Trinity or the personhood of Christ or... 00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:20.859 How about we say it then, like, it's okay to leave a church if there is a disagreement 00:08:20.859 --> 00:08:25.936 about a primary non-negotiable theological issue. 00:08:26.746 --> 00:08:30.032 Yeah. Which most people, the technical term would be heresy. 00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:34.722 Heresy, right, right, right. Some people call a lot of things heresy. 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:37.315 Not everything is heresy. 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:39.484 Sometimes it's just differing of opinion. 00:08:39.999 --> 00:08:45.300 So, you brought up the Trinity. Yep. 00:08:45.879 --> 00:08:49.981 Okay, so. The personhood of Christ. They'd be denying the Trinity of God. Right. 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:54.999 They'd be denying the personhood of Jesus Christ, which is a Trinitarian doctrine. 00:08:54.999 --> 00:09:00.679 Scripture, scriptural integrity. Scriptural integrity, scriptural, yeah. 00:09:03.959 --> 00:09:04.484 What else? 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:11.879 Faith or salvation by faith. Yeah, salvation by grace through faith. Yeah. 00:09:16.039 --> 00:09:16.421 Yeah. 00:09:18.581 --> 00:09:23.316 Yeah, before I like widen the- The virgin birth. Virgin birth, yeah. Yeah. 00:09:23.899 --> 00:09:28.899 Let's see, I'm starting to pot a little bit. 00:09:37.219 --> 00:09:40.115 Okay, let's see, so primary, 00:09:44.787 --> 00:09:50.836 what about, I'm trying to think of like things that I would pull out of the creed, 00:09:51.962 --> 00:09:54.545 That would be the antithesis to the creed. 00:09:55.643 --> 00:10:00.037 I mean like. How about like creation and evolution? 00:10:02.764 --> 00:10:10.139 Let's see, so like I do think that there is like a tipping point in like, because that 00:10:10.139 --> 00:10:12.419 I put as a secondary issue. 00:10:13.171 --> 00:10:17.501 But if you like, I guess I would willing, I wasn't going to go there quite there yet. 00:10:18.139 --> 00:10:24.406 Like if you're in a place of where you disagree with I don't know. 00:10:26.305 --> 00:10:34.119 60, 50%, I don't know where the percentage would be, but a high percentage of the secondary, 00:10:34.587 --> 00:10:43.968 teachings of the church, and you're not interested in budging, and it's not a, you must leave, 00:10:44.275 --> 00:10:49.935 but the question raises is like, why would you stay? 00:10:49.935 --> 00:10:56.940 Is this the best place for you? So what are some other examples of secondary issues that maybe are a little bit more practical 00:10:57.235 --> 00:11:01.035 and yeah, those are the ones that people, those are the ones that people talk about 00:11:01.035 --> 00:11:07.155 the most church government, church government, sign gifts. 00:11:07.635 --> 00:11:14.675 So like tongues and stuff like that, worship style, worship style, um, view on creation. 00:11:14.675 --> 00:11:22.595 I guess if that's going to be a big one for you or, or a big one for the church, um, I 00:11:22.595 --> 00:11:27.575 that could go either way. Methods, anything that has to do with methods. 00:11:27.715 --> 00:11:34.675 Methods, Calvinism, Arminianism. Yeah, that's a good one. If that's like a... Predestination versus free will. 00:11:34.675 --> 00:11:41.843 Yeah, right. That whole dispensationalism versus covenantal theology. Right. 00:11:42.041 --> 00:11:48.577 But like, I mean, I don't know that very... There are some churches that make those pretty big 00:11:48.835 --> 00:11:54.897 pounding points and theological distinctions. But I wouldn't say the average church makes 00:11:54.951 --> 00:11:59.875 some of those niche things. Some social theological issues. 00:12:00.595 --> 00:12:13.540 Yeah. Like the nature of marriage or sexual integrity, orientation, acceptedness of, I don't know, things like that. 00:12:13.621 --> 00:12:14.936 Yeah. Well. 00:12:15.179 --> 00:12:24.035 Though secondary or primary? That's a hard one because we've talked about our own personal 00:12:24.035 --> 00:12:37.315 stances on sexual identity and definition of marriage and all of that. And at the current, 00:12:37.882 --> 00:12:43.955 point in church history, it is a bit of a litmus test to a lot of other things. 00:12:43.955 --> 00:12:53.315 Yes. And so if a church has a non-biblical, what we would call a non-biblical interpretation of, 00:12:54.528 --> 00:12:59.875 sexual ethics, chances are there's going to be some other things that are going to be, 00:13:00.820 --> 00:13:07.635 you know, kind of leads into a number of other things. So that one, while, like, I wouldn't say 00:13:07.635 --> 00:13:12.755 that, like, if you go to a church and you don't personally hold to the convictions, same sexual 00:13:12.755 --> 00:13:14.195 convictions of that church. 00:13:16.898 --> 00:13:20.368 I like I know that there's I know because I know of people who've done that, 00:13:21.084 --> 00:13:26.148 Like on both ends of the spectrums that have stayed and people that have left. Yeah, either they go to a church 00:13:26.148 --> 00:13:30.788 That's more liberal than they are on that topic or they themselves are more liberal than the church is, 00:13:31.635 --> 00:13:35.608 And they've stayed so I don't and I and I've seen that kind of work. 00:13:38.666 --> 00:13:43.788 So I don't want to say that that like rises to like a primary you should probably leave but 00:13:44.068 --> 00:13:48.955 But that does, because it can, 00:13:49.068 --> 00:13:56.628 because it directly affects your relationship with your pastors, or how the pastor, 00:13:56.628 --> 00:13:58.831 a pastor could speak into your life 00:13:59.128 --> 00:14:01.279 on a pretty important topic. 00:14:01.548 --> 00:14:01.847 Yeah. 00:14:02.388 --> 00:14:06.888 That one, that one's kind of a gray one for me. Where does it sit for you? 00:14:07.028 --> 00:14:08.391 I would say the same. Yeah. 00:14:08.948 --> 00:14:19.148 Yeah, I would say, like, I think it would depend, it's an interesting kind of conversation, place to put myself 00:14:19.148 --> 00:14:24.988 in because my entire adult life I've been a pastor, I haven't been a parishioner, so 00:14:24.988 --> 00:14:27.971 I don't know how I would respond, quite honestly. 00:14:28.148 --> 00:14:34.462 But I think it's like, how does your pastor steward the disagreement between you? 00:14:35.308 --> 00:14:40.097 Are they willing to allow, to still give you space to be. 00:14:42.843 --> 00:14:49.559 To openly disagree with them? will they still pastor you through a different issue? 00:14:51.755 --> 00:14:58.336 With faithfulness and integrity and gentleness and compassion and truth. Yep. 00:14:58.858 --> 00:15:01.865 Because you disagree with them on another issue. Yes. 00:15:02.325 --> 00:15:08.325 You know, so. I feel like it would be, this is just my, I feel like it would be easier to be 00:15:08.463 --> 00:15:14.005 conservative in your sexual ethics and interpretation of scripture attending a more 00:15:14.005 --> 00:15:20.805 liberal church than it would be to have a liberal interpretation attending a more 00:15:20.805 --> 00:15:27.242 conservative church. But that might just be my perspective because of me being a pastor, of 00:15:27.525 --> 00:15:37.845 seeing it being... just seeing the pastoral shepherding issues that arise of being staunch, 00:15:37.845 --> 00:15:44.405 not just like... because what I'm not... because I do want people to be able to come to our church 00:15:44.405 --> 00:15:49.405 and who are like, you know, don't really know kind of, 00:15:49.685 --> 00:15:55.165 and I'm sure that we do have people who maybe disagree with us on our interpretation 00:15:55.165 --> 00:15:56.685 of the Bible sexual ethics. 00:15:56.685 --> 00:15:57.823 I know we do. 00:15:57.965 --> 00:16:01.253 And so like, it's not that I don't want them here. 00:16:01.925 --> 00:16:05.365 No, I absolutely want them here. 00:16:06.123 --> 00:16:12.685 Right, but it puts you in a difficult spot if we get into a pastoral counseling 00:16:12.685 --> 00:16:17.645 or into a place where we're like, that becomes the issue. 00:16:17.889 --> 00:16:18.231 Yeah. 00:16:19.023 --> 00:16:25.145 So. Okay. So, I mean, we use the theological disagreement answer. 00:16:27.165 --> 00:16:31.365 As kind of a. Like a jumping off point. Springboard point. 00:16:31.705 --> 00:16:36.125 You know, what are some other reasons that it would be okay? 00:16:36.125 --> 00:16:39.638 Or what are some reasons that it would not be okay to leave a church? 00:16:40.685 --> 00:16:44.465 Personally, I think that like some of those secondary issues like, 00:16:45.859 --> 00:16:52.029 Because some people I know, I was in a conversation with you once. I think it was 00:16:52.029 --> 00:16:57.949 very early on in my time here. Someone came up to us and asked us a niche theological question. 00:16:58.876 --> 00:17:03.134 Wanted to know before they like started coming here. They wanted to know, like, 00:17:04.277 --> 00:17:06.989 think they asked about perseverance of the saints. Oh, that's right. 00:17:08.734 --> 00:17:18.669 And so, and like, they wanted to know that very specific. They asked about like once saved always saved. Yeah, the back of the sanctuary after a worship night. Yeah. Yeah 00:17:18.669 --> 00:17:23.609 Yeah, they wanted to know that very specific theological conclusion, 00:17:24.669 --> 00:17:30.483 Before they were willing to come to like a Sunday worship and and explore being part of the church, right? 00:17:32.392 --> 00:17:41.549 And I was like I mean The funny thing is, is that we probably agree with him. Probably. 00:17:42.366 --> 00:17:48.589 I don't know. Maybe. I honestly don't know because he was really clear because he kept saying to me, 00:17:48.589 --> 00:17:53.469 I remember this very clearly. He was like, he was quoting the verse way out of context, 00:17:53.469 --> 00:17:58.349 but he was like, you know, how can we walk together if we don't agree? 00:17:59.236 --> 00:18:04.429 Yeah, right. Whatever that, whatever reference that is, I don't even remember, but like, how can any two 00:18:04.429 --> 00:18:09.949 walk together unless they would agree. Using that as the, like, well, if we don't agree on 00:18:09.949 --> 00:18:21.389 everything, we can't walk together in Christian unity. And honestly, I feel like Perseverance of 00:18:21.389 --> 00:18:31.069 the Saints, Calvinism versus Arminianism, unless the church's identity hangs on those theological 00:18:31.069 --> 00:18:36.101 distinctives, but I don't think, unless you're going to a church that's specifically, like, 00:18:36.269 --> 00:18:41.629 that is like a tent pole, like, that is like, we talk about tulip, or we talk about, like, 00:18:41.889 --> 00:18:45.355 I don't know what the, what the. 00:18:46.273 --> 00:18:51.883 Equivalent to tulip is in the Arminian camp. There isn't one. We don't need acronyms. 00:18:54.283 --> 00:18:57.803 All right. We just believe the Bible. Get out of here. 00:19:01.487 --> 00:19:08.523 So unless that's like a tentpole of the church, you don't really need, I don't think I have very, 00:19:08.523 --> 00:19:12.923 like, if someone comes up to me and they're like, Luke, I feel like you need to agree with me, 00:19:12.923 --> 00:19:20.363 or I need to agree on your stance of like Calvinism or Arminianism in order for me to be a, 00:19:21.163 --> 00:19:28.523 to sit under you as a pastor. I was like, I don't know that you do. Yeah. Like if that's the one 00:19:28.523 --> 00:19:35.083 thing, you know, or so those it's kind of a, I guess I put those like secondary issues as like, 00:19:35.831 --> 00:19:39.803 are, are there a, just an absolute overwhelming, a ton of them, 00:19:39.803 --> 00:19:44.783 which at that point you're probably just attending the wrong denomination or the 00:19:44.783 --> 00:19:47.003 wrong brand of church or whatever, 00:19:47.804 --> 00:19:52.206 or the church you're attending has made some of those like maybe as like primary, 00:19:54.961 --> 00:20:02.003 kind of cultural tent poles to the church and you're just not willing to deal with that. Um, 00:20:03.003 --> 00:20:10.678 so theological reasons, but in a like major or massively cumulated category. 00:20:15.223 --> 00:20:18.375 And what would be another reason? 00:20:22.823 --> 00:20:27.043 I think that there are actually, there are practical reasons to leave a church that are okay. 00:20:29.403 --> 00:20:36.281 Like we've got some people who attend here who I know drive 45 minutes. 00:20:36.803 --> 00:20:39.306 They pass 30 churches to get here. 00:20:42.103 --> 00:20:49.763 And while that feels really good, like, oh, they pass 30 churches to come here. 00:20:49.763 --> 00:20:50.873 They feel like it's worth to come here. 00:20:51.693 --> 00:20:57.049 It would be really difficult for me to be upset with them. Yeah. 00:20:58.607 --> 00:21:04.857 To be upset with them. Yes. I would be upset. Yes. But I wouldn't be upset with them. Right. 00:21:04.857 --> 00:21:09.577 Because if they decided, you know, we would like to go to a church that's closer to us. 00:21:13.424 --> 00:21:17.737 Do you have a, this is kind of somewhat as a side question, but I think a pertinent question. 00:21:18.483 --> 00:21:23.737 Do you have any theological conviction to the locality of church and ministry? So like, 00:21:23.737 --> 00:21:28.539 Like, should you, if you have a faithful church near you, 00:21:28.677 --> 00:21:34.597 should you prioritize that church over a church that you maybe like more that's farther away 00:21:34.597 --> 00:21:37.055 but not connected to your local community? 00:21:40.494 --> 00:21:46.657 I think it's a hard question to answer because the acceptability of distances 00:21:46.657 --> 00:21:49.077 is a little bit different for everyone. 00:21:49.877 --> 00:21:53.737 You know, like for some people, 15 minutes away is a long way, 00:21:53.737 --> 00:21:57.472 and for other people, an hour away is not too far away. 00:21:59.057 --> 00:22:04.057 I think where that question comes down for me is, 00:22:06.337 --> 00:22:14.667 I think we do still want to attend churches that generally represent our church culture values, 00:22:17.737 --> 00:22:26.144 our own core values. obviously are theological convictions. So if the church that is right across the street from me, 00:22:26.604 --> 00:22:30.017 is a universalist church, I'm not gonna choose it. Right, right. 00:22:31.697 --> 00:22:40.350 Just cause it's close. So I think that we shouldn't discount those preferential things. 00:22:42.937 --> 00:22:47.537 But I do think that if you're passing churches that you. 00:22:49.280 --> 00:22:58.970 Can get along with theologically, that are a reasonable distance, that make sense. 00:23:00.965 --> 00:23:12.155 I do question a little bit about the picking and choosing in an a la carte way the, 00:23:12.890 --> 00:23:17.863 the aspects of community that you want. 00:23:19.114 --> 00:23:17.863 Yeah. 00:23:19.150 --> 00:23:25.370 Like I think that there is, when the distance of your church begins to make it difficult, 00:23:26.490 --> 00:23:33.806 to meaningfully engage in the regular community of that particular church, 00:23:34.070 --> 00:23:35.282 then I think that there, 00:23:35.610 --> 00:23:39.675 you need to look at attending a church that's closer to you. 00:23:39.890 --> 00:23:47.730 Whether or not the church is like a picture-perfect example of the church that you wanna go to or not, 00:23:47.730 --> 00:23:49.650 if you're so far away from it 00:23:49.870 --> 00:23:57.430 that you're not able to meaningfully engage in community, then I think you need to make a different choice. 00:23:57.430 --> 00:24:03.387 Because I think that's an extraordinarily overlooked but extraordinarily important aspect, 00:24:04.467 --> 00:24:11.408 to attending a specific church is the ability to engage in the community of that church. 00:24:11.510 --> 00:24:16.630 Not just, are you able to be there on Sundays, are you able to be there meaningfully 00:24:16.630 --> 00:24:20.032 as a full participant in other days of the week even. 00:24:20.770 --> 00:24:25.550 Right, or like community groups, small groups, you know, missional events. 00:24:27.630 --> 00:24:33.710 You know, yeah. Ability to serve regularly, like, oh, I just can't serve because I live so far away, 00:24:33.710 --> 00:24:35.831 It didn't take me so long to get in, you know. 00:24:37.270 --> 00:24:45.030 So yeah, I do think that that is something that would be, I think, a reasonable thing 00:24:45.030 --> 00:24:47.192 to change churches over. 00:24:49.578 --> 00:24:55.668 Yeah. What about like, did you mention style in the last kind of like, like, 00:24:55.816 --> 00:25:01.101 Yeah. Yeah. Like style, cultural values, stuff like that. You know, like, I think that that is, 00:25:01.506 --> 00:25:07.105 I don't think we should overlook that. Yeah. Sometimes I get a little bit like, 00:25:07.420 --> 00:25:14.388 so the very first church that I served was a really small, like 20 people on a Sunday. 00:25:16.107 --> 00:25:22.908 Yeah. Classic country church. Do you guys have an organ? We had an organ, but no organist. 00:25:23.273 --> 00:25:29.348 Okay. Yep. Do you guys have hymnals? We had a hymnal, and we played a digital hymnal. 00:25:29.348 --> 00:25:32.257 Digital organ played the music to the hymns we sung. 00:25:32.828 --> 00:25:34.148 I was 21 years old. 00:25:35.570 --> 00:25:40.008 I was just married. I was a baby. Did you wear a suit? 00:25:40.468 --> 00:25:46.188 No, I didn't. I wore a tie sometimes, at least the first couple of weeks, just to get a sense of like 00:25:46.382 --> 00:25:53.080 like the job, you know? Man, we could tell some stories. That would be a fun podcast episode, 00:25:53.288 --> 00:25:54.655 early ministry experiences. 00:25:57.468 --> 00:26:04.323 I was gonna say, oh, so, you know, I was 21. My wife was 21. 00:26:04.668 --> 00:26:10.508 The next closest person to us, I think it was like 35 years older than us. Yeah. 00:26:10.976 --> 00:26:18.788 Like a whole adult above us, you know? And, you know, there were some times where we would, 00:26:21.268 --> 00:26:24.957 on a Sunday morning, we were there for two years. It was a great experience, honestly. 00:26:25.011 --> 00:26:31.969 We were there for two years and there would be some times where we would get a family who would come, 00:26:33.208 --> 00:26:34.931 and just like pop in. 00:26:35.732 --> 00:26:37.605 And they had kids, young kids. 00:26:39.148 --> 00:26:42.889 And they would walk in, they would sit down And they would say, okay, do you have? 00:26:43.768 --> 00:26:46.733 Sunday school? You have Sunday school, where's the rest of the kids? 00:26:48.552 --> 00:26:54.718 And we would just have to say like, we don't have any of that because we don't have any of those people. 00:26:56.060 --> 00:27:00.468 Right. Right. And you could see. See them like go shut down. 00:27:00.468 --> 00:27:03.216 You could just see it on their face and you knew it. Yeah. 00:27:04.068 --> 00:27:09.725 This was the first and the last time. That would be. That you were going to see them. Yeah. 00:27:11.668 --> 00:27:12.606 And so. 00:27:15.108 --> 00:27:20.960 So the question then is like, does style or like makeup matter? 00:27:21.032 --> 00:27:23.949 And I would say like, I think it kind of does. 00:27:24.030 --> 00:27:28.388 It kind of does. I think it kind of does. I don't, I want to say it doesn't because. 00:27:28.388 --> 00:27:31.788 Right, I hate that it does that because it ends up being like for us, 00:27:31.788 --> 00:27:33.797 it was like just this vicious circle. Yeah. 00:27:34.517 --> 00:27:40.315 Like we were never gonna have any kids because we never had any kids. out. 00:27:41.782 --> 00:27:48.192 We... The church plant, different problem. Same problem, different demographic. Church plant in 00:27:48.192 --> 00:27:55.312 a city, not a lot of families end up in the city, a lot of newly marrieds without kids, 00:27:57.113 --> 00:28:06.079 dinks, double income, no kids, end up in the city. And so we would get families who... Well, 00:28:06.272 --> 00:28:13.472 first off, I'm gonna toot my own horn, I was fairly good at building a really good website, 00:28:14.112 --> 00:28:18.592 and a social media presence for the church. And so people would look at the website, 00:28:18.592 --> 00:28:21.312 they would look at what we had, they'd look at the sermons, and they're like, 00:28:21.312 --> 00:28:26.192 oh, this seems like a really well-established church. They would show up to sanctuary, 00:28:26.192 --> 00:28:32.112 to the service, and there would be maybe 10 people, 15 people there, and there would be one 00:28:32.112 --> 00:28:37.392 kid, which was the pastor's kid, in the kid's room, and they were like. 00:28:39.856 --> 00:28:45.472 This is not as big or as established as your online presence led us to think. 00:28:47.472 --> 00:28:48.672 Thank you very much, Luke says. 00:28:48.672 --> 00:28:54.655 Thank you, thank you. I did my job. And it was the same thing. They were just like, 00:28:54.962 --> 00:28:58.592 we really wanna be at a church. I had that conversation so many times. We wanna be at a 00:28:58.592 --> 00:29:05.368 church where there are other kids for our kid to be part of. And that's not an inconsequential thing. 00:29:06.032 --> 00:29:07.313 As much as I wanted to say. 00:29:08.861 --> 00:29:15.111 If you would stay, we would have kids, that whole cycle. So... Yeah, right. 00:29:15.253 --> 00:29:19.751 That's kind of... Yeah, that's always a hard place for a pastor to kind of sit in that like, 00:29:19.871 --> 00:29:23.031 I get it, I get it, but please stay. 00:29:23.831 --> 00:29:28.871 Right, exactly. Yes, I do think it is a consideration and I don't begrudge people, 00:29:30.313 --> 00:29:34.551 for making decisions like that, because I get it. I've got kids now, I didn't then, 00:29:34.551 --> 00:29:42.551 10, but it would be really difficult for me to be a part of a place or a community like 00:29:42.551 --> 00:29:44.551 that. That didn't have a space for your kids. 00:29:45.410 --> 00:29:46.551 Yeah. Yeah. 00:29:47.517 --> 00:29:55.831 So, yeah, I do think it matters, like the fit, the makeup of the church, although I 00:29:55.831 --> 00:29:58.319 don't think it's the primary thing. 00:29:58.472 --> 00:30:03.523 I don't think it's an insurmountable type of thing. 00:30:03.871 --> 00:30:11.274 Because I think like, and a lot maybe depends on you as a person. 00:30:11.351 --> 00:30:17.791 I guess I'm like, like for me, if I was picking a church, like I care more, like I care more 00:30:17.791 --> 00:30:23.454 about the preaching than I do the worship style or the quality of the worship. 00:30:24.071 --> 00:30:32.031 Like if the musicians are fantastic or not. I would, I would rather go to a church that has really solid preaching that I feel is 00:30:32.031 --> 00:30:42.331 like, honoring, faithful, and is pushing me to grow, rather than go to a church that has like, what I would consider the best 00:30:42.331 --> 00:30:47.400 worship, musical worship, but a pretty watery sermon. Like, you, 00:30:47.931 --> 00:30:51.131 know, it's where do you prioritize some of those things? 00:30:51.131 --> 00:30:54.491 I guess that depends on you as an individual. 00:30:54.531 --> 00:31:06.251 Yeah. Yeah. So So I think what one of the things that I this whole conversation brings up some feelings 00:31:06.251 --> 00:31:15.571 and some emotions in me because I don't want to say that it's I don't want to say that 00:31:15.892 --> 00:31:20.555 it's easy every time for people to leave church and go to a different church. 00:31:20.811 --> 00:31:21.824 No it's not. 00:31:23.651 --> 00:31:32.978 But I would be willing to bet that it is, in most cases, more difficult for the pastor, 00:31:33.527 --> 00:31:35.409 than it is for the people to leave. 00:31:38.578 --> 00:31:44.428 Well, maybe it's not fair. I don't know. But what I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't 00:31:44.428 --> 00:31:57.148 often think that people rightly weigh how difficult it is when people leave your church, 00:31:58.284 --> 00:32:05.868 especially for reasons that are like, that's your reason? Like, okay, I get it. If you've got like, 00:32:06.602 --> 00:32:13.028 like major, major concerns or qualms or disagreements, but that's your reason for leaving? 00:32:13.028 --> 00:32:23.769 Like I pour my life into you, I serve you, like I walk you through really, really difficult, 00:32:25.528 --> 00:32:28.088 circumstances or situations in your life. 00:32:28.988 --> 00:32:36.188 I like expend an incredible amount of physical, emotional, mental, spiritual energy. 00:32:37.548 --> 00:32:43.133 And then you're like, yeah, we just kind of felt like it was time for a change. Yeah. 00:32:44.988 --> 00:32:54.701 Is like a kick in the stomach. Right. Like it really, as much as we try to not make it about us, 00:32:54.988 --> 00:32:57.748 because it's not. It's not. It is not about us. 00:32:59.229 --> 00:33:04.688 Right. We're not robotic. No. And we do put ourselves into ministry. 00:33:04.688 --> 00:33:12.288 Of course, yeah. We try and lead from vulnerability, try to lead with the personal giftings we've been given, 00:33:12.288 --> 00:33:15.973 like, and we try invest. Yeah, we don't avoid friendship. 00:33:17.378 --> 00:33:21.408 Right. So that we can lead, we invest in friendship so that we can lead. 00:33:22.212 --> 00:33:24.678 And so these are our friends that are leaving. 00:33:25.399 --> 00:33:29.168 Yeah. And I had a pastor friend once tell me, actually, we just had lunch with him. 00:33:29.630 --> 00:33:38.605 And he said, and I think it was actually something that another pastor had told him, that like, 00:33:39.688 --> 00:33:43.106 when they are your friends, but they're not your friends. 00:33:45.042 --> 00:33:53.027 Like the people that you serve in ministry, they're your friends, they're also not. 00:33:53.332 --> 00:33:55.016 You are their pastor. 00:33:55.332 --> 00:34:00.832 Like and if you see your primary role in their life as one of being a friend, then you're, 00:34:01.772 --> 00:34:04.928 going to get friend type treatment. 00:34:06.611 --> 00:34:13.132 And if you see your role primarily as one as a pastor, you're going to get your interaction 00:34:13.132 --> 00:34:20.132 with them and your expectations of them, especially in moments of them leaving, is going to be different. 00:34:20.538 --> 00:34:31.565 Yes. So that's still a really hard dynamic for me because I do consider myself friends with, 00:34:32.012 --> 00:34:33.825 these people. Some people... 00:34:34.059 --> 00:34:36.670 And like some of them I'm much better friends with than others. 00:34:37.165 --> 00:34:50.212 Sure. Some of my... my best friends come to church here. And so what if they were to leave? How would I? 00:34:51.613 --> 00:34:52.522 How do you handle that? Yeah. 00:34:54.278 --> 00:35:05.172 Sometimes not well. Yeah. Like for a lot of people, particularly if you're, you know, if you're Christian, 00:35:05.172 --> 00:35:11.779 you're attending church, large portion of your social circle ends up being made up out of the 00:35:11.892 --> 00:35:18.852 church you attend. And the complexity is, is that that remains true for us, except we also work at 00:35:18.852 --> 00:35:26.212 the church we attend and are responsible for the church we attend. Yeah, responsible, right. 00:35:26.212 --> 00:35:34.372 Um, yeah, I, that whole friend dynamic is, is difficult. 00:35:35.698 --> 00:35:42.692 Um, and it's, it's a hard, cause there are these like invisible lines that you'll 00:35:42.692 --> 00:35:47.092 like run up to and like one of the, one of the easiest ways to encounter one of 00:35:47.092 --> 00:36:00.852 those lines is like, I know that this is sometimes the part of, sometimes sometimes people's a pastime. I don't want to be of like of Christian people 00:36:00.852 --> 00:36:05.306 who have been very churched, there is this pastime of... 00:36:07.844 --> 00:36:17.295 Backseat pastoring a church, of kind of like, it is easy to drive home with your family or your 00:36:17.295 --> 00:36:21.695 friends or whoever you came to church with, and like, what do you think about that sermon today? 00:36:21.695 --> 00:36:27.295 What's that? And kind of like, armchair critiques, some of the leadership decisions or stylistic 00:36:27.434 --> 00:36:34.895 decisions that a church is making, which when, like, you would never actually say those things 00:36:34.895 --> 00:36:42.455 things to the pastor or to the leadership, because at the end of the day, you're not 00:36:42.455 --> 00:36:48.115 actually all that convinced that you're right, you're just having something to talk about. 00:36:48.115 --> 00:36:51.920 But there's been once or twice where I've been in conversation and somebody will slip 00:36:52.015 --> 00:36:57.762 into that, and I'm like, hey, I'm here. 00:36:58.023 --> 00:37:03.424 I made that decision or I'm, you know, I'm, you know, when you're talking kind of somewhat, 00:37:04.073 --> 00:37:12.495 not harshly, but critically of the church and its direction, I'm like, Hey, so it. 00:37:12.495 --> 00:37:13.495 And we're not infallible. 00:37:13.849 --> 00:37:19.735 No, no, we don't always make the right decision, but there's, yeah, there, there, there becomes 00:37:19.735 --> 00:37:24.472 like a point of like, man, you know, like I do this all day. 00:37:29.575 --> 00:37:34.617 Every day for the last two decades of my life. I'm not perfect. 00:37:35.415 --> 00:37:39.397 I'm not infallible, but I'm not an idiot. Right. 00:37:39.915 --> 00:37:51.289 Like I know what I'm doing. Um, so yeah, like, um, what was I going to say? Um, it's gone. 00:37:54.989 --> 00:38:04.440 Is it okay to leave a church because you're not getting fed? 00:38:07.395 --> 00:38:13.520 That is like the most, that is like, that is the equal in my mind, that is the 00:38:13.520 --> 00:38:17.960 equivalent to coming up to your, your, your boyfriend, girlfriend, and saying, 00:38:18.611 --> 00:38:19.880 Hey, you're really great. 00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:21.520 I think we just should be friends though. 00:38:22.986 --> 00:38:28.496 Like it like that is how that feels to me as it's a answer. That's a non answer in, 00:38:29.720 --> 00:38:34.440 like it at least it feels that way to me because I, 00:38:37.003 --> 00:38:43.170 Have a hard time believing a lot of people it's like maybe that is true Maybe, 00:38:44.412 --> 00:38:48.980 But a lot of times this is this is some my this is some of my personal conviction 00:38:48.980 --> 00:38:56.820 So I think a lot of times people who are saying that there is something underneath of that, 00:38:57.555 --> 00:39:09.460 that is a pattern or like that that is happening kind of cyclically in their life and in their 00:39:09.460 --> 00:39:15.140 spiritual life and that is the only way they know how to articulate it but that is not actually 00:39:15.140 --> 00:39:20.020 what's happening. My opinion is that a lot of people, particularly people who. 00:39:21.620 --> 00:39:27.540 If there's a pattern of coming to a church, oh my gosh, this is such, this is the church I was 00:39:27.540 --> 00:39:33.420 looking for, like all these things that you found. Love the church, get involved, 00:39:33.420 --> 00:39:34.410 Do stick around for... 00:39:35.923 --> 00:39:42.573 Five years, three years. And then eventually over that period of time, you begin to become 00:39:42.573 --> 00:39:48.973 discontent with either the same issues that you had at your last church or a new set of issues. 00:39:50.093 --> 00:39:57.133 And then, or you just kind of generally start to feel kind of like the honeymoon period wear off. 00:39:57.321 --> 00:40:00.706 And then you kind of just hit a bit of a spiritual doldrum. You're kind of, 00:40:01.053 --> 00:40:03.613 you don't feel like you're growing anymore in your spiritual life. 00:40:03.893 --> 00:40:08.079 Life, and your solution to that is like, well, then I must not be getting fed. 00:40:08.333 --> 00:40:14.408 I need to go to another church that's gonna help me feel like my spiritual life is on fire. 00:40:14.966 --> 00:40:19.584 I'm sure I've talked a lot about this type of language on this podcast, but like that 00:40:19.647 --> 00:40:24.573 constantly chasing that spiritual high of like, how do I get my spiritual life to feel 00:40:24.573 --> 00:40:28.955 like I'm on fire for God, I'm moving forward, I'm going from mountaintop to mountaintop. 00:40:29.253 --> 00:40:32.853 And if my church isn't helping me feel that way... They're not feeding me. 00:40:33.413 --> 00:40:42.573 Not feeding me. And my word to people who are perennially in that cycle of, you know, 00:40:42.573 --> 00:40:49.253 finding new teachers, new churches, new conferences, is that actually the Lord needs to bring you 00:40:49.253 --> 00:40:58.591 into a place where you're not feeling on fire to refine you into a more mature Christian. 00:40:58.933 --> 00:41:05.424 And so that's not everybody that comes up to us and says, like, I'm not being fed here. 00:41:05.733 --> 00:41:15.074 But I think it is a large majority of people where, or it's a, I'm not being fed here. 00:41:15.973 --> 00:41:20.973 Could I've sometimes seen used as like a scapegoat for. 00:41:23.509 --> 00:41:27.019 Uh, there's conflict or accountability. I want to avoid. 00:41:28.127 --> 00:41:32.259 Yep. Um, that's what I mean by like, what I'm saying, like, this is the, like the 00:41:32.259 --> 00:41:36.913 equivalent of the, like God told me I just need to be single right now. 00:41:37.048 --> 00:41:40.259 Yeah. God just told me I need to be single right now, or let's just be friends. 00:41:40.259 --> 00:41:44.899 It's, it's an answer that is it's, or it's, it's not you, it's me. 00:41:45.079 --> 00:41:50.219 Uh, it's, it's this avoiding of the actual thing, uh, in order to just come 00:41:50.219 --> 00:41:53.162 into what feels kind of acceptable and okay to say. 00:41:53.820 --> 00:41:59.739 In those spaces, I don't think that's okay, because I think there's actually something deeper 00:41:59.739 --> 00:42:01.003 that needs addressed. 00:42:02.408 --> 00:42:09.579 If you're not getting fed, you know, I know pastors and people who would say, 00:42:09.579 --> 00:42:16.019 well, it's not like you need to be feeding yourself then, like, particularly if you're a mature Christian, like. 00:42:16.019 --> 00:42:27.139 One of the things that I was gonna say is I've never met a person who has a vibrant and alive personal devotional life who has 00:42:27.139 --> 00:42:30.009 made the excuse that my church is not feeding me. 00:42:32.808 --> 00:42:40.109 I haven't, period. Like, I can't say this about every church, because I don't know every church, but I know 00:42:40.217 --> 00:42:46.059 here at Conduit, the two preachers that primarily preach here, we preach the truth of scripture, 00:42:46.059 --> 00:42:56.394 We proclaim it, communicate it as clearly and as faithfully as anyone that I've seen or experienced. 00:42:56.679 --> 00:43:02.219 And so if you're not getting fed, it's not because there's not a meal being served. 00:43:02.659 --> 00:43:04.082 It's because you're not eating it. 00:43:06.387 --> 00:43:11.579 The meal has been, the meal is served. It is on the table. Whether or not you take a big honking bite, 00:43:12.220 --> 00:43:16.569 chew it long enough for it to get down inside of you, is on you. Yeah. 00:43:16.740 --> 00:43:18.319 Not on me. Yeah. 00:43:19.099 --> 00:43:23.248 So if you're not getting fed, it's cause you're not eating. Yes. 00:43:23.499 --> 00:43:26.534 Not because there's nothing there to eat. 00:43:26.903 --> 00:43:27.245 Yep. 00:43:28.586 --> 00:43:36.379 Cause there's meat to eat here. There is. But also, maybe there's this just consumer... 00:43:36.379 --> 00:43:41.739 We've talked about consumerism in the church before, but there might be this expectation 00:43:41.739 --> 00:43:49.112 of like, all right, give me the adrenaline shot to keep me going. 00:43:49.499 --> 00:43:57.682 Come in... Like, if I'm not feeling close to Jesus by Tuesday, the church must not be doing it. 00:43:58.259 --> 00:44:03.819 Right. I think your primary point is, I think probably the most accurate one 00:44:03.819 --> 00:44:08.819 is that people often run to that excuse, 00:44:09.559 --> 00:44:16.542 when they feel the warm fuzzies of being on fire begin to fizzle. 00:44:18.379 --> 00:44:22.474 I've often had people ask me if we can start a Wednesday service, 00:44:24.079 --> 00:44:28.019 because they feel like the spiritual high 00:44:28.019 --> 00:44:31.170 that they get on Sunday fades away too quickly. 00:44:32.499 --> 00:44:37.553 And if there was just a Wednesday service that they could come and consume, 00:44:37.733 --> 00:44:43.782 they would be on a spiritual high from Sunday to Wednesday. Wednesday would get them through to the next Sunday, 00:44:43.882 --> 00:44:46.879 and they could just jump from peak to peak to peak. 00:44:48.293 --> 00:44:49.472 Rather than. 00:44:51.623 --> 00:44:56.003 You know actually live life out in a broken world and on mission for the Lord, 00:44:57.203 --> 00:45:04.403 Experiencing the same types of things that Jesus and Peter and Paul and all the Apostles and disciples experience themselves, 00:45:06.018 --> 00:45:15.479 But so yeah, I do think it is I generally think that it is a cop-out for something that's happening deeper within them very few. I, 00:45:16.497 --> 00:45:21.543 I mean, there are certainly places where you can attend there and you're not going to get fed because the word's not being proclaimed, right? 00:45:23.060 --> 00:45:31.543 The funny thing is, though, is that a lot of times those places, they're, they're doing something else that a lot of people mistake as being fed. 00:45:33.826 --> 00:45:36.761 Yeah. Right. Like I'm thinking like the motivational. Right. 00:45:37.543 --> 00:45:42.543 Sermon, the motivational Ted talk sermon. Well, it gets you, it brings it like makes you emotionally. 00:45:42.543 --> 00:45:49.661 Right and you think that and you you think that's being fed and so you will stick around but you're not actually being fed You're being, 00:45:50.444 --> 00:45:52.587 Shot up. It's empty spiritual calories. Yeah, 00:45:53.838 --> 00:46:00.503 It is empty calories. It does nothing for your soul, but it makes you feel full. Mm-hmm. It's a deception, 00:46:01.481 --> 00:46:06.343 Of the enemy. Yes, that keeps us away from feeding on the bread of life. Mm-hmm, 00:46:06.999 --> 00:46:09.520 Mm-hmm What about? 00:46:10.343 --> 00:46:11.428 Unhealthy churches. 00:46:12.896 --> 00:46:18.855 So we've talked about, like, we talked about theology, and it was coming into my mind that, 00:46:19.495 --> 00:46:24.490 there are probably churches out there that, at least on paper, and maybe in reality, do 00:46:24.490 --> 00:46:27.696 check a lot of theological boxes. 00:46:28.610 --> 00:46:35.744 Is there a way, though, that they can still check those theological boxes, maybe even 00:46:36.131 --> 00:46:45.230 preach the Bible faithfully, but be unhealthy in some aspect, and would that merit leaving? 00:46:45.754 --> 00:46:52.910 10 Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think you can be really unhealthy relationally, although. 00:46:54.990 --> 00:47:02.350 I think to experience unhealth in another area would lead me to believe that you're, 00:47:02.445 --> 00:47:11.951 they're probably experiencing a diminished like proclamation of the scripture as well, 00:47:12.293 --> 00:47:18.590 like, because it's very difficult to, to feast on the Word of God, and then to be 00:47:18.702 --> 00:47:26.590 in the carrier around a bunch of relational unhealth. Like the Word of God, rightly digested 00:47:26.590 --> 00:47:33.470 into your soul is going to move you towards the reconciliation and redemption of relationships. 00:47:34.285 --> 00:47:42.670 And so I think that there is a theological backstop to that, but yeah, I think that, 00:47:44.116 --> 00:47:51.630 to have an unhealthy church, maybe relationally, to have a church where there's the unhealthy use of 00:47:51.630 --> 00:47:56.630 of finances or resources, power, power dynamics. 00:48:01.202 --> 00:48:05.692 But therein, again, I think that there's a theological backstop to that as well. 00:48:07.945 --> 00:48:17.847 But those certainly are not secondary issues. You know, I think you hit on, like, the way you said that triggered in my thought, in my own mind, 00:48:17.893 --> 00:48:27.372 is that if there's some unhealth in relational or structure or the way the church is operating, 00:48:27.489 --> 00:48:32.892 that they're probably not... There's some diminishment of the preaching of the word. 00:48:34.070 --> 00:48:41.569 I think you're very right there. A church maybe is preaching part of the counsel of God very 00:48:41.932 --> 00:48:47.897 faithfully, but is not preaching or receiving part of the counsel of God that would be the, 00:48:48.572 --> 00:48:54.652 corrective source for the problems that they're experiencing. So that can be almost tricky from 00:48:54.652 --> 00:48:58.812 the outside because, oh, they're preaching the parts of the Bible they're maybe preaching, 00:48:58.812 --> 00:49:06.572 maybe they're doing a good job at, but they're maybe avoiding entire sections of the Bible. 00:49:06.572 --> 00:49:13.067 Or they've got certain fruits of the Spirit, but they've ignored others. So that can be 00:49:13.346 --> 00:49:14.412 a tricky one sometimes. 00:49:14.412 --> 00:49:21.395 Right. We were having lunch today with two pastor friends, and they made a comment about 00:49:21.692 --> 00:49:27.292 something that they have trying to maybe try to communicate as a cultural reality in their 00:49:27.292 --> 00:49:32.572 own church is that this is a 70-30 church. And what they meant by that was like. 00:49:34.169 --> 00:49:38.812 70, you're gonna stay probably if you like 70%. You're gonna like 70% of what we do, 00:49:38.812 --> 00:49:43.452 and you're gonna hate 30% of what we do. Stay for the 70, embrace, and then like, 00:49:43.452 --> 00:49:56.252 just deal with the 30. The implicit reality there is that there is literally no church, 00:49:57.304 --> 00:50:03.612 on this side of heaven that is perfect. Even the churches that you... Like the perfect church for 00:50:03.612 --> 00:50:10.812 you. There are people who tell us all the time, conduit is... I love conduit. It's my best church 00:50:10.812 --> 00:50:13.892 church I've ever been in, it's my favorite church. 00:50:13.892 --> 00:50:18.172 It always makes me so scared. It really does, yep, it's like, oh boy. 00:50:20.292 --> 00:50:25.274 Because I know conduit better than anyone and it's not perfect. 00:50:25.692 --> 00:50:29.792 It's far, far from it. But. 00:50:31.801 --> 00:50:44.531 The reality is that like you, it's okay to not love every aspect of your church and still stay. 00:50:45.962 --> 00:50:51.651 In fact, I think that's a better understanding of the nature of the church and the nature of 00:50:51.651 --> 00:50:57.491 Christian community than running around your city or your county trying to find the church 00:50:57.863 --> 00:51:03.411 that's perfect in every way and never settling, never putting down roots and creating, 00:51:04.451 --> 00:51:12.329 long-standing relationships in one place because you haven't found the church that's perfect yet. 00:51:12.474 --> 00:51:18.371 None of them are. Find a church that's like 70% perfect for you and stay. 00:51:18.865 --> 00:51:30.131 Yeah. And you know, the church is not supposed to fit our mold or fit into our box. We're supposed 00:51:30.131 --> 00:51:36.451 to be molded by the church. Church is supposed to be informative. It's supposed to be transformative. 00:51:36.451 --> 00:51:46.131 It's supposed to form us. And if we're looking for the church that fits our perfect ideal or 00:51:46.131 --> 00:51:53.211 form of the church. We've found a church that is of our own making and is never going to challenge grow us. 00:51:56.495 --> 00:52:04.824 Like, you know, what was a red I was talking with a Pastor at one point and we were having a conversation. I didn't know him particularly well, 00:52:05.389 --> 00:52:09.664 But he said something that was like a major red flag in my heart and he said yeah 00:52:09.664 --> 00:52:13.815 Like I've pretty much got the church running exactly how I think it should run, 00:52:15.813 --> 00:52:25.564 And that scared me morning Morning, I was just like because I think people sometimes think that like pastors get to just decide and make 00:52:25.564 --> 00:52:31.774 unilateral decisions and form a church to be exactly how they want it to be. 00:52:33.062 --> 00:52:41.824 That's not really healthy leadership, in my opinion. Like, church does not run, 00:52:42.361 --> 00:52:46.384 according to my preferences, and sometimes that's really hard to guard 00:52:46.384 --> 00:52:54.235 against as a pastor, but we're trying to let the church be the church, and 00:52:54.370 --> 00:53:00.784 And sometimes the church has aspects or parts of it that are not in line of our personality or 00:53:00.784 --> 00:53:07.504 our own preference. And that's something I think that gets lost. Do you see that, feel that? 00:53:07.504 --> 00:53:10.169 Yeah, I do. Yep. It's a good point. 00:53:10.583 --> 00:53:24.654 Yeah. What do you, what do you wish people knew on the other side of of the like church leaving dynamic. 00:53:24.964 --> 00:53:30.523 Like, what do you wish people knew when they do make that decision to leave 00:53:30.684 --> 00:53:33.064 or people are watching people leave your church? 00:53:33.332 --> 00:53:38.796 Like, what do you wish people knew about that from your standpoint as a pastor? 00:53:39.471 --> 00:53:57.872 I think probably one of the like similar to what I already said was that please like don't 00:53:58.124 --> 00:54:07.802 just don't just disengage from the relationships that have been formative for you. 00:54:09.548 --> 00:54:24.844 So don't discount how important you have become in other people's lives here, and how important they feel in yours. 00:54:24.844 --> 00:54:26.274 If you're going to leave. 00:54:28.291 --> 00:54:35.070 Please make the effort to tell People that you're leaving to say goodbye to say goodbye, right? 00:54:35.287 --> 00:54:40.847 Don't just say don't just don't just disappear and then I haven't seen you for like four or five weeks, 00:54:42.821 --> 00:54:47.707 And then I call and be like hey haven't seen you for a way just checking in oh it took you that long to notice, 00:54:49.007 --> 00:54:56.787 We're going to another church. Yeah Okay, that's super hurtful even for you like that passive-aggressive statement 00:54:56.787 --> 00:55:00.427 And I'm sorry to hear that. 00:55:00.427 --> 00:55:01.572 I wish I would have known. 00:55:02.387 --> 00:55:08.907 And maybe we could have talked about that. Maybe we could have talked about that 00:55:08.907 --> 00:55:14.103 before you obviously let some bitterness settle into your heart towards me, 00:55:14.767 --> 00:55:17.065 or towards the church or towards wherever. 00:55:19.387 --> 00:55:26.806 So yeah, I would say what I would want people to know is I think there's a lot of value in leaving the right way, 00:55:28.887 --> 00:55:35.502 by talking to the people that have invested in your life. And I think that if you stand on good, solid ground, 00:55:36.207 --> 00:55:37.599 for the reasons that you're leaving, 00:55:38.527 --> 00:55:44.882 I'm gonna pray for you and encourage you and love you on your way out the door. 00:55:46.277 --> 00:55:49.767 Yeah. I wanna do those things anyway. Sure. I try to do those things anyway. 00:55:49.767 --> 00:55:53.380 I don't always do a great job at them, but at least be supportive. 00:55:54.007 --> 00:55:57.647 I'm not always supportive of people's decision to leave the church, 00:55:57.647 --> 00:56:00.087 because I think a lot of those excuses are bull crap. 00:56:01.527 --> 00:56:05.287 And because I want to pastor their hearts, I'm not going to agree with decisions 00:56:05.287 --> 00:56:06.527 that I think are harmful. 00:56:08.807 --> 00:56:15.571 But if you have good reason, then yeah, I'm going to support it and like encourage you in it. 00:56:15.847 --> 00:56:17.938 So come and tell me your great reasons. 00:56:18.542 --> 00:56:24.978 Yeah. Come and tell me. Yeah. We would 100. Yeah. big one is like. 00:56:27.610 --> 00:56:34.359 Have a conversation. We would 100% rather have a conversation when we walk away disagreeing 00:56:34.602 --> 00:56:41.530 than just have you disappear. Give us the opportunity to, particularly if there's 00:56:41.530 --> 00:56:46.250 something that you're upset about or you're hurt about, give us the opportunity to, 00:56:46.872 --> 00:56:51.530 respond gracefully and apologize. Yeah, work towards reconciliation. You know that biblical 00:56:51.530 --> 00:56:54.263 concept of forgiveness and reconciliation, right? Like, 00:56:55.766 --> 00:57:02.284 yeah, I think the other thing I would add, and this is maybe I don't know, this is this is tangential somewhat, but I 00:57:02.530 --> 00:57:13.290 think it's maybe important is that if someone leaves badly, like they leave kind of dropping bombs, or they leave kind of 00:57:13.290 --> 00:57:23.930 with a bad story. Sometimes what I've had is when that happens, people will say, 00:57:24.600 --> 00:57:28.021 hey, like someone who's still attending the church will come and say, hey, I talked with 00:57:28.408 --> 00:57:34.570 so-and-so who left and they said such and such. Like, or sometimes they'll just come and say, 00:57:34.570 --> 00:57:38.113 like or why are people why is why are they leaving or something like that. 00:57:41.966 --> 00:57:52.696 Because of like our position or authority because of Kindness because of confidentiality because of like what is godly, 00:57:54.456 --> 00:58:01.077 Oftentimes we have to swallow our side of the story. Yep And not talk about it, 00:58:02.176 --> 00:58:08.176 Yep And so and what that creates if you're watching from the outside as you can see someone who's being very vocal 00:58:08.176 --> 00:58:16.264 vocal about their side of the story, and the church is being silent. 00:58:16.556 --> 00:58:19.736 And some people will take that as like... An admission of guilt. 00:58:19.736 --> 00:58:20.765 An admission of guilt. 00:58:21.136 --> 00:58:27.376 And what that actually is, is that standing faithful and not willing to compromise on 00:58:27.376 --> 00:58:36.136 confidentiality, inappropriate speech, being unkind, crossing professional and boundaries 00:58:36.136 --> 00:58:41.256 that we feel like are appropriate, because somebody might be able to go onto social media 00:58:41.256 --> 00:58:48.656 and publicly post a video or make a big post rant about us personally or the church at 00:58:48.656 --> 00:58:53.777 large, but that would be highly inappropriate for us to respond to that. 00:58:54.576 --> 00:59:02.023 And so I would say, just remember every time you tear down the church or its leaders unreasonably, 00:59:02.336 --> 00:59:04.093 you do damage to Christ. 00:59:06.569 --> 00:59:09.170 Yes. Yeah. Or if you're reading that, you're like a spectator, 00:59:10.076 --> 00:59:14.302 like be actually happy that the church isn't responding in kind, 00:59:14.416 --> 00:59:18.371 right? Silence isn't, isn't necessarily admission. 00:59:18.976 --> 00:59:23.616 That's a right in a world where like transparency has become like such a buzz 00:59:23.636 --> 00:59:28.201 word and a high value. Actually, transparency is not actually always appropriate. 00:59:28.625 --> 00:59:32.756 It would be very inappropriate for us to disclose things that are not ours to 00:59:32.756 --> 00:59:42.200 disclose. Yeah, correct. So, so somewhat in topic, but yes, slightly different kind of leaving situation. Right. So, 00:59:45.702 --> 00:59:50.836 anything else we want to say about that? I don't know. I don't think so. Yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe you 00:59:50.836 --> 00:59:53.316 guys have any questions about any of that or comments, you 00:59:53.606 --> 01:00:02.896 can leave a comment on the video or shoot us a text message or or whatever, 716-201-0507 is our texting line here. 01:00:07.766 --> 01:00:08.576 It's not our personal lines. It's our texting line for the podcast, 01:00:10.908 --> 01:00:16.436 where you can text a question or a comment. And as always, like, subscribe, and share 01:00:16.436 --> 01:00:17.102 wherever it is that you're listening, 01:00:19.703 --> 01:00:22.036 Love it if you would share it with your friends or share it on social media. 01:00:22.161 --> 01:00:25.384 That'd be really helpful for us. It would. Appreciate you. 01:00:27.607 --> 01:00:28.057 See you next time.