1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,433 the digital world, it scales differently. 2 00:00:04,100 --> 00:00:08,633 So you don't need to call one latchkey service at a time 3 00:00:08,900 --> 00:00:12,500 with AI, with being online, you can replicate things very, 4 00:00:12,533 --> 00:00:15,900 very quickly and it can be a one man shop or operation. 5 00:00:15,900 --> 00:00:20,033 So there's a huge difference in scale when we're looking at this online. 6 00:00:20,566 --> 00:00:22,500 If you believe we can change the narrative. 7 00:00:22,500 --> 00:00:24,700 If you believe, we can change our communities. 8 00:00:24,700 --> 00:00:28,066 If you believe we can change the outcomes, then we can change the world. 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:30,366 I'm Rob Richardson. 10 00:00:30,366 --> 00:00:32,933 Welcome to disruption. Now. 11 00:00:32,933 --> 00:00:34,300 Welcome to Disruption Now. 12 00:00:34,300 --> 00:00:36,866 I'm your host and moderator, Rob Richardson. 13 00:00:36,866 --> 00:00:39,700 Have you ever thought about how your data is used? 14 00:00:39,700 --> 00:00:44,100 Or better yet, have you thought about how data of your kids is being used? 15 00:00:44,833 --> 00:00:49,033 Do you have any idea about how much is happening behind the scenes, 16 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,400 how that can be manipulated, how it's being manipulated? 17 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:54,633 You know, I don't think we thought much about it. 18 00:00:54,633 --> 00:00:56,366 We entered. I'm going to tell my age here. 19 00:00:56,366 --> 00:00:59,333 We enter the social media era and just everything was free. 20 00:00:59,333 --> 00:01:00,166 We were able to connect. 21 00:01:00,166 --> 00:01:02,566 It was all free. It was all great. 22 00:01:02,566 --> 00:01:04,200 But it's not. Free. 23 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:05,633 Nothing's free in this world. 24 00:01:05,633 --> 00:01:07,733 That data is not free. 25 00:01:07,733 --> 00:01:09,466 You are the product. 26 00:01:09,466 --> 00:01:11,200 You and your kids are the product. 27 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,133 The question is, are you comfortable with that? 28 00:01:13,133 --> 00:01:14,366 Does that matter to you? 29 00:01:14,366 --> 00:01:19,066 Well, we're here to actually to talk about why data privacy matters is just not, 30 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:20,133 you know, 31 00:01:20,133 --> 00:01:20,833 it's just not people 32 00:01:20,833 --> 00:01:23,833 that are just liberals out here saying we need to protect our data. 33 00:01:24,133 --> 00:01:27,133 It's actually affecting all of us because 34 00:01:27,266 --> 00:01:30,833 whether you like it or not, you are a part of the digital economy. 35 00:01:30,966 --> 00:01:33,966 And that's just going to amplify now with artificial intelligence. 36 00:01:34,100 --> 00:01:37,866 So with me to talk about how we can have a future that's actually, 37 00:01:38,100 --> 00:01:41,100 more about transparency and freedom 38 00:01:41,100 --> 00:01:44,400 and understanding how you can protect yourself is John Kavanagh. 39 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,733 He is the founder of the Plug Foundation. 40 00:01:46,733 --> 00:01:48,066 And, he's gonna 41 00:01:48,066 --> 00:01:51,366 tell you, a story in his journey because it's a very interesting one. 42 00:01:51,533 --> 00:01:54,766 But I want you to understand that you have the ability 43 00:01:54,766 --> 00:01:59,833 to protect yourself, to protect your kids, but you have to know where to start. 44 00:01:59,833 --> 00:02:02,833 And we hope that by the end of this episode, you'll actually have that. 45 00:02:02,866 --> 00:02:06,700 But before we start, make sure you like make make sure you subscribe. 46 00:02:06,733 --> 00:02:08,433 That's how we're going to keep the disruption growing. 47 00:02:08,433 --> 00:02:10,000 We appreciate you listening. 48 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,333 And now I have the pleasure of introducing John Kavanagh. 49 00:02:13,366 --> 00:02:14,366 John, how you doing, brother? 50 00:02:14,366 --> 00:02:15,166 Good. Rob. 51 00:02:15,166 --> 00:02:17,033 Thank you so much for the introduction. Appreciate it. 52 00:02:17,033 --> 00:02:18,566 Hey, thank you so much. 53 00:02:18,566 --> 00:02:23,600 So you had an interesting journey to get to data to get to data privacy. 54 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,900 I like to start like this is such a 55 00:02:26,900 --> 00:02:29,900 we met not not not so long ago. 56 00:02:29,966 --> 00:02:33,066 And to me, it was clear that you had a clear mission and focus. 57 00:02:33,433 --> 00:02:35,966 And I have to say, I consider myself pretty informed. 58 00:02:35,966 --> 00:02:39,666 But after I left our conversation, I became even more concerned 59 00:02:39,700 --> 00:02:41,200 about data privacy. 60 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,000 I was like, oh, this is worse than I thought. 61 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:48,000 And, I'm just curious, how did you get into the world of data privacy? 62 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,000 Like, how did this become your kind of central? Why? 63 00:02:51,066 --> 00:02:51,433 Yeah. 64 00:02:51,433 --> 00:02:56,166 So everybody in privacy, if you ask, they all have a wild story. 65 00:02:56,500 --> 00:02:59,300 Very few people just started out passionate about this. 66 00:02:59,300 --> 00:03:01,300 And like you mentioned, the introduction. 67 00:03:01,300 --> 00:03:04,966 We all thought the products we were using online were free and great. 68 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,200 And yeah, there were some advertising behind it. 69 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:07,900 No problem. 70 00:03:07,900 --> 00:03:10,366 Where you see that with television and stuff, 71 00:03:10,366 --> 00:03:14,400 but there's a dark side to it and people learn that at their own pace. 72 00:03:14,700 --> 00:03:16,633 So a few people on my board, one was, 73 00:03:16,633 --> 00:03:20,366 a lawyer, and he was just doing contract law, 74 00:03:20,533 --> 00:03:24,366 and he saw a drone go over his house, and he was with his kids and family. 75 00:03:24,366 --> 00:03:27,733 And it started that question like, you know, who's drone is that? 76 00:03:27,733 --> 00:03:28,033 Right? 77 00:03:28,033 --> 00:03:31,100 Why are they do they have now video of me and my family? 78 00:03:31,233 --> 00:03:31,733 Right. 79 00:03:31,733 --> 00:03:34,633 So we all have those interesting ways. 80 00:03:34,633 --> 00:03:38,933 for me, it started back in undergrad where I made a website. 81 00:03:38,933 --> 00:03:40,833 It was called Slate Up, 82 00:03:40,833 --> 00:03:43,633 and it was just a place as a pre-med student 83 00:03:43,633 --> 00:03:46,700 where I wanted to meet other students that were taking 84 00:03:46,700 --> 00:03:49,866 the mCAT already in med school, because it's a huge decision. 85 00:03:49,966 --> 00:03:50,866 It's like a half 86 00:03:50,866 --> 00:03:54,066 $1 million in debt to figure out if you like being a doctor or not. 87 00:03:54,100 --> 00:03:54,533 Yeah. 88 00:03:54,533 --> 00:03:57,166 So it was a lot of cost to figure that out. 89 00:03:57,166 --> 00:03:59,600 So I built a website to connect people similar 90 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,066 to like the old school version of Facebook. Yeah. 91 00:04:02,066 --> 00:04:03,833 And that was are missing connect the world. 92 00:04:03,833 --> 00:04:04,333 Yeah. 93 00:04:04,333 --> 00:04:08,300 So I wanted to meet and connect with people, especially professionally 94 00:04:08,300 --> 00:04:10,000 and within school. 95 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:11,366 And it grew very fast. 96 00:04:11,366 --> 00:04:15,166 within the first three months, we had one fourth of you see, on it. 97 00:04:15,166 --> 00:04:15,866 Yeah. 98 00:04:15,866 --> 00:04:20,533 And it grew in the Midwest, Ohio State, Middle Tennessee, 99 00:04:20,533 --> 00:04:25,100 Clayton State University, lots of schools in Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee, Indiana. 100 00:04:25,566 --> 00:04:29,766 And as we were growing, we got, research grants 101 00:04:29,766 --> 00:04:33,433 to keep it running, but eventually we needed a series A funding. 102 00:04:33,433 --> 00:04:34,300 Sure. 103 00:04:34,300 --> 00:04:38,166 And we weren't we weren't keeping any data of our users. 104 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:40,233 We were like, oh, let's just, 105 00:04:41,500 --> 00:04:42,066 make sure 106 00:04:42,066 --> 00:04:45,066 that we're taking care of them and that everything's protected. 107 00:04:45,133 --> 00:04:48,833 But we just want to make sure that the people that are using our products, 108 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,333 feel good about you know, the environment that they're in. 109 00:04:52,366 --> 00:04:55,266 Right? And our privacy policy is, hey, we're not selling anything. 110 00:04:55,266 --> 00:04:56,866 We're not pushing any ads. 111 00:04:56,866 --> 00:05:01,033 And we developed, a way to make money by selling to universities. 112 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,933 So we figured that would be our pipeline and our revenue to make money, 113 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:07,133 which everybody agreed upon. 114 00:05:07,133 --> 00:05:10,133 But when we were looking at that series A funding 115 00:05:10,633 --> 00:05:14,166 every single investor 50 plus that we talked to, 116 00:05:14,166 --> 00:05:17,200 every single one was saying, hey, what are you doing to sell the data? 117 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,333 Because that's another revenue stream, right? 118 00:05:19,333 --> 00:05:22,933 And you can't ignore it to be competitive in this day and age with tech. 119 00:05:23,433 --> 00:05:25,866 And I started learning about what that really meant. 120 00:05:25,866 --> 00:05:30,533 So when looking through the details of what data mining was, how it's used, 121 00:05:30,666 --> 00:05:34,966 who it's sold to, you enter this huge dark 122 00:05:34,966 --> 00:05:38,833 side of the internet that people are vaguely familiar with. 123 00:05:39,300 --> 00:05:42,300 But when you really dive deep down about it, 124 00:05:42,366 --> 00:05:45,133 you understand how they're using various 125 00:05:46,266 --> 00:05:47,166 parameters about 126 00:05:47,166 --> 00:05:50,933 your life to nudge you to a decision. 127 00:05:50,933 --> 00:05:52,600 It can be a political decision, right? 128 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,600 It can be in buying products at a certain time. 129 00:05:55,666 --> 00:05:58,033 It can be understanding your mental health state. 130 00:05:58,033 --> 00:05:58,900 Are you depressed? 131 00:05:58,900 --> 00:05:59,733 Are you sad? 132 00:05:59,733 --> 00:06:02,533 Well, you tend to buy more in this direction. 133 00:06:02,533 --> 00:06:05,200 and we were primarily focused on college students 134 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,300 who have, by default, pretty bad literacy. 135 00:06:08,366 --> 00:06:10,433 financial literacy skills. Yes. 136 00:06:10,433 --> 00:06:14,466 So that was one thing was like, hey, a lot of these students are getting a lump 137 00:06:14,466 --> 00:06:18,666 sum that is debt, essentially, and spending it on beer and pizza 138 00:06:18,700 --> 00:06:19,766 right on the weekends. 139 00:06:19,766 --> 00:06:23,033 But if we have an opportunity to slip our products in there as well, 140 00:06:23,533 --> 00:06:26,366 where they're paying 12% interest on whatever 141 00:06:26,366 --> 00:06:30,200 T-shirt company they are, then that's good for business. 142 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,433 But in the long run, it's not sustainable for our society. 143 00:06:33,733 --> 00:06:35,533 And I found a lot of objections. 144 00:06:35,533 --> 00:06:39,733 So, me and the core group, we decided to close down the organization 145 00:06:39,733 --> 00:06:41,233 and build a nonprofit. 146 00:06:41,233 --> 00:06:43,466 So you you mentioned me as the founder, but there are. 147 00:06:43,466 --> 00:06:46,166 And I want to say that back, back, back, back up for a minute, okay? 148 00:06:46,166 --> 00:06:49,600 People just have to I want to make sure they absorb what you just said. 149 00:06:50,133 --> 00:06:52,700 A series funding is a big funding round. 150 00:06:52,700 --> 00:06:53,300 Yes, right. 151 00:06:53,300 --> 00:06:57,066 There is seed pre-seed series A, you're talking 152 00:06:57,066 --> 00:06:59,300 minimum 5 million, probably dollars. 153 00:06:59,300 --> 00:07:02,733 I don't know what it was then, but I'm guessing it's around that like so 154 00:07:03,733 --> 00:07:06,200 very clear. Like 155 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,800 millions of dollars was offered. Yes. 156 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,566 And because you weren't comfortable with the direction 157 00:07:11,566 --> 00:07:14,566 of where the investors wanted you to go with the data. 158 00:07:14,666 --> 00:07:17,433 You turned it down and you started a nonprofit. 159 00:07:17,433 --> 00:07:18,500 Just make sure people understand that. 160 00:07:18,500 --> 00:07:21,200 So like it's one thing to say that you have these principles. 161 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,200 It's another thing to actually have done it. 162 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,700 What's that massive respect for. Right. Thank you. 163 00:07:25,700 --> 00:07:29,566 Could have been easy by the way, but, like, it's, 164 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,200 So I want to talk about I want you to go down the nonprofit. 165 00:07:34,166 --> 00:07:37,166 but I like to just deep dive into, like, what? 166 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,466 Really kind of, sparked you to say no to that? 167 00:07:40,466 --> 00:07:44,000 Because it sounds like you weren't against the idea of ads in general. 168 00:07:44,233 --> 00:07:46,000 It sounds like there was something there. 169 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,533 Was there other things that that deeply disturbed you to make you go from? 170 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,533 It's one extreme to say, no, no, I do this to starting a nonprofit. 171 00:07:54,100 --> 00:07:57,800 Like like what were like the top things that really just, like, stuck out. 172 00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:59,800 There has to be some things that like that. 173 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:01,300 The investors, the people wanted to do that. 174 00:08:01,300 --> 00:08:03,066 You just didn't sit right with you. 175 00:08:03,066 --> 00:08:05,200 Like, what? What were those things? 176 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:05,533 Yeah. 177 00:08:05,533 --> 00:08:09,733 So our primary focus was understanding how students could feel at home 178 00:08:09,733 --> 00:08:10,933 at a university. Yes. 179 00:08:10,933 --> 00:08:15,133 And we were helping with, reducing melt rate where people said, 180 00:08:15,133 --> 00:08:17,500 hey, I want to go to University of Cincinnati, for example. 181 00:08:17,500 --> 00:08:21,600 But then they wouldn't at the end of the like beginning of the school year, 182 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,533 they wouldn't come because they went to Ohio State or something as an example. 183 00:08:26,233 --> 00:08:28,633 a lot of that is because they just didn't feel a sense of community. 184 00:08:28,633 --> 00:08:32,533 So we were helping facilitate that sense where the resident advisors, 185 00:08:32,566 --> 00:08:35,733 the people that live on the dorms, and the orientation 186 00:08:35,733 --> 00:08:38,966 leaders would connect in a better facilitated way. 187 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,433 Right. so people felt more at home. 188 00:08:41,433 --> 00:08:44,100 and then, you know, 189 00:08:44,100 --> 00:08:47,933 to be honest, I was against ads because the business model from. 190 00:08:48,066 --> 00:08:49,800 Yeah, the business model that we had. 191 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:51,433 Right. Didn't need it. Right. 192 00:08:51,433 --> 00:08:55,933 So everything else was like, hey, these are slightly it was a steep, 193 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,433 like a curve of more and more invasive maneuvers. 194 00:08:59,466 --> 00:09:01,133 Right. Which was against the philosophy. 195 00:09:01,133 --> 00:09:03,333 It's like, hey, we have a good revenue stream. 196 00:09:03,333 --> 00:09:05,066 universities are willing to pay for this. 197 00:09:05,066 --> 00:09:09,733 We had letters of intent and to buy and everything, so we were good to go. 198 00:09:09,966 --> 00:09:12,033 And, they wanted you to be. 199 00:09:12,033 --> 00:09:15,200 I feel where you go. Is that, yes. 200 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,266 You didn't like the ads, but I also think it was the level of what you would have 201 00:09:18,266 --> 00:09:22,866 had to compromise feels like for becoming for for selling. 202 00:09:22,866 --> 00:09:24,966 That would have meant that you would have gone away from your mission. 203 00:09:24,966 --> 00:09:26,500 It feels like. Exactly. 204 00:09:26,500 --> 00:09:29,833 And here's another thing is, I'm convinced in the tech world, 205 00:09:29,833 --> 00:09:32,833 if you are a for profit tech company, unless you're a billionaire 206 00:09:32,833 --> 00:09:35,966 and you can find everything itself, at one point you're going to be cash strapped. 207 00:09:35,966 --> 00:09:39,133 So if it's not the series A that we compromise on, 208 00:09:39,133 --> 00:09:42,600 it's going to be a series B, 100, 100 million or something like that. 209 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:47,600 And what's going to happen is companies they want or investment firms 210 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,600 they want somebody on the board that makes decisions. 211 00:09:50,833 --> 00:09:53,566 And unless you are a super galactic 212 00:09:53,566 --> 00:09:56,866 unicorn like Zuckerberg, who has all of the voting rights. 213 00:09:56,866 --> 00:09:59,700 But even but, but but he had to still do that. 214 00:09:59,700 --> 00:10:02,433 And I don't think he has any problem with it, actually. 215 00:10:02,433 --> 00:10:06,066 You know, like, I don't even say he he doesn't share your your moral dilemma. 216 00:10:06,300 --> 00:10:08,166 It's not I just think we got to be honest. Right. 217 00:10:08,166 --> 00:10:10,800 But but he's like he did share that. 218 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,400 But you're right if it but that but also he's following the model that they want. 219 00:10:14,933 --> 00:10:15,733 Yeah. 220 00:10:15,733 --> 00:10:20,833 Any you know he does it to like builders have a tough job but I don't. 221 00:10:20,833 --> 00:10:24,366 But I do think that they don't do enough for policy to protect people. 222 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:26,233 And what you're saying is you 223 00:10:26,233 --> 00:10:27,966 if you would have done that, you'd have had no ability 224 00:10:27,966 --> 00:10:30,000 to protect the people that you're fighting for. Yes. 225 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:31,466 And it can only get worse. 226 00:10:31,466 --> 00:10:33,500 Yeah. And, I. Totally respect that. 227 00:10:33,500 --> 00:10:36,133 Like to been able to do that. Amazing. For this is why this is amazing. 228 00:10:36,133 --> 00:10:38,000 This is why I was moved to have you on. 229 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,000 So sorry to interrupt you, but go ahead. Good to go. 230 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,200 Thank you, I appreciate it, but to, if I died tomorrow, let's say I'm running 231 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,900 it, and I have decision, like, even best case scenario, I have full decision. 232 00:10:48,300 --> 00:10:49,266 I die tomorrow. 233 00:10:49,266 --> 00:10:52,400 Whoever's taking my place, there's nothing, there's 234 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,733 no law protecting the original mission that we have. 235 00:10:55,733 --> 00:10:58,733 Somebody can come in and say, this is our business strategy. 236 00:10:58,900 --> 00:11:00,200 where a nonprofit has 237 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,600 an articles of incorporation that the government enforces. 238 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:03,966 Right. 239 00:11:03,966 --> 00:11:08,133 So if our founding team, by the way, our founding team is amazing. 240 00:11:08,133 --> 00:11:08,866 There's four of us. 241 00:11:08,866 --> 00:11:12,033 If our founding team all dies tomorrow, 242 00:11:12,333 --> 00:11:16,466 whoever upholds it is legally bound to uphold our Constitution. 243 00:11:16,700 --> 00:11:19,700 And to change that is extremely difficult. 244 00:11:19,966 --> 00:11:23,533 and the people that have to change it have to look at our, our mission 245 00:11:23,533 --> 00:11:24,833 and see if that follows our mission. 246 00:11:24,833 --> 00:11:29,133 So, that's why I made the shift to if we're doing something 247 00:11:29,133 --> 00:11:31,600 in the tech space, it needs to be a nonprofit. 248 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:33,233 Okay. That's amazing. 249 00:11:33,233 --> 00:11:36,233 So, you started the Clock Foundation. 250 00:11:36,866 --> 00:11:39,066 Now, tell us that you moved from, 251 00:11:39,066 --> 00:11:42,066 you know, working to help the community of college students. 252 00:11:42,533 --> 00:11:44,800 What is the foundation doing now? 253 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:46,033 What is its mission? 254 00:11:46,033 --> 00:11:46,333 Yeah. 255 00:11:46,333 --> 00:11:49,666 So, the mission is to wake up as many people in the same way 256 00:11:49,666 --> 00:11:53,933 that I was woken up when, when I did this deep dive, it was like 257 00:11:54,166 --> 00:11:57,266 pulling the matrix out and like, oh, this is really what's going on? 258 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,233 and it's to do it in a way to create awareness. 259 00:12:00,233 --> 00:12:03,366 So the four main principles that we're doing is creating awareness. 260 00:12:03,666 --> 00:12:05,900 We want to build education off of that. 261 00:12:05,900 --> 00:12:09,233 we want to create technology that solves for it. 262 00:12:09,233 --> 00:12:11,366 So it's great to say, hey, guess what? 263 00:12:11,366 --> 00:12:14,000 You're screwed. Rob, I don't have any solutions for you. Right? 264 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:15,866 Okay. That doesn't help anybody. Yeah. 265 00:12:15,866 --> 00:12:18,133 If we have tools and technology. 266 00:12:18,133 --> 00:12:19,166 So technology and tools. 267 00:12:19,166 --> 00:12:21,300 So the second piece second half. 268 00:12:21,300 --> 00:12:24,300 So awareness education technology and tools okay. 269 00:12:24,633 --> 00:12:29,133 To give people the steps that they need to protect their privacy 270 00:12:30,533 --> 00:12:30,933 okay. 271 00:12:30,933 --> 00:12:34,900 The second part of that is that we are also not only focused on privacy, 272 00:12:35,166 --> 00:12:37,400 but we're focused on digital safety, okay. 273 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:38,566 And that's more encompassing. 274 00:12:38,566 --> 00:12:41,833 So similar to when we were kids, our parents would say, 275 00:12:41,833 --> 00:12:44,833 don't talk to strangers or look both ways before you cross the street. 276 00:12:45,100 --> 00:12:48,100 What does that mean in an ever changing online landscape? 277 00:12:48,333 --> 00:12:50,200 What does it mean when it comes to virtual reality? 278 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,833 When it comes to AI, when it comes to just using our phones or our laptops? 279 00:12:54,133 --> 00:12:59,233 And how do we inform our children, how to inform families and, keep that 280 00:12:59,233 --> 00:13:04,300 as a thread that we are on the pulse for whatever advancing technologies come. 281 00:13:04,533 --> 00:13:04,933 Yeah. 282 00:13:04,933 --> 00:13:07,733 Give some examples. Like so people think digital safety. 283 00:13:07,733 --> 00:13:10,066 and you gave me some really great examples. 284 00:13:10,066 --> 00:13:13,366 But like people don't people don't appreciate what that means. 285 00:13:13,366 --> 00:13:16,066 Tell me, why should people care about digital safety? 286 00:13:16,066 --> 00:13:18,766 Yeah, I think people have some idea of privacy 287 00:13:18,766 --> 00:13:22,333 and that feels easier because it's like, all right, you can, you can. 288 00:13:22,333 --> 00:13:24,533 You get to choose what level you want to do. 289 00:13:24,533 --> 00:13:26,966 Do you want to have your information there? Do you not. 290 00:13:26,966 --> 00:13:29,266 And that needs to be in an informed consent way 291 00:13:29,266 --> 00:13:31,033 where we actually understand what you're telling us. Yeah. 292 00:13:31,033 --> 00:13:33,233 Not a 10,000 page terms condition. 293 00:13:33,233 --> 00:13:35,666 This where you can sell your information, it can be sold to anybody. 294 00:13:35,666 --> 00:13:37,666 Are you comfortable with that or not? Yeah. 295 00:13:37,666 --> 00:13:40,433 And then people need to really have that versus whatever we have now. 296 00:13:40,433 --> 00:13:43,833 It's like not informed consent I believe that's pretty dumb. 297 00:13:44,233 --> 00:13:47,866 I think overall people understand what privacy means and why that's important. 298 00:13:48,366 --> 00:13:49,800 What do you mean by digital safety. 299 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:50,133 Yeah. 300 00:13:50,133 --> 00:13:53,633 So digital safety has a lot of, general threads. 301 00:13:53,833 --> 00:13:59,166 So it can be a mix of cybersecurity, such as when you are creating a password, 302 00:13:59,166 --> 00:14:01,733 are you creating a long password a short password. 303 00:14:01,733 --> 00:14:05,466 do you have authentication, multi-factor authentication 304 00:14:05,633 --> 00:14:10,066 so that if somebody finds your password, you get sent something on your phone 305 00:14:10,066 --> 00:14:12,466 saying, did you approve of this password being sent? 306 00:14:12,466 --> 00:14:14,966 There are little things, like very basic things. 307 00:14:14,966 --> 00:14:17,566 Are you updating your devices regularly? 308 00:14:17,566 --> 00:14:18,600 there are things 309 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,500 such as what are the next scams that are happening on TikTok or Facebook? 310 00:14:22,733 --> 00:14:26,233 we now know with AI there have been phone calls that are replicating 311 00:14:26,233 --> 00:14:29,233 somebody's voice because all you need is a six second sample. 312 00:14:29,266 --> 00:14:33,033 So those types of things that I need to understand, 313 00:14:33,033 --> 00:14:36,766 that if I'm a mom and my kid calls me from a phone 314 00:14:36,766 --> 00:14:39,333 and it sounds like them, but it's not registered, I don't know, 315 00:14:39,333 --> 00:14:40,533 it's their actual phone number. 316 00:14:40,533 --> 00:14:42,666 And they're saying, hey, mom, I need money, right? 317 00:14:42,666 --> 00:14:44,733 For you to have some street smarts. 318 00:14:44,733 --> 00:14:46,500 Yeah, some digital street smarts. 319 00:14:46,500 --> 00:14:48,633 Yeah, that's a good way to think about it. Yeah, exactly. 320 00:14:48,633 --> 00:14:49,633 That's a good that's a really good. 321 00:14:49,633 --> 00:14:50,700 That's a really good example. 322 00:14:50,700 --> 00:14:54,466 Like, I remember growing up, my parents and I had a, had 323 00:14:54,466 --> 00:14:58,200 I had a password between the family that only 3 or 4 people knew. 324 00:14:58,433 --> 00:15:02,100 If that was so, you would know, actually, if somebody said 325 00:15:02,300 --> 00:15:05,633 that they were trying to pick you up because this is going to age me again. 326 00:15:05,633 --> 00:15:06,800 But we were latchkey kids, right? 327 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:10,166 So, like, sometimes we were, which is never happens now. 328 00:15:10,166 --> 00:15:14,166 Like, you get picked up by people and, and uncles, 329 00:15:14,166 --> 00:15:17,700 and we would only know that if people would know a password. 330 00:15:18,066 --> 00:15:19,433 Hardly anybody ever picked me up, by the way. 331 00:15:19,433 --> 00:15:21,700 But it's usually I just went home myself. 332 00:15:21,700 --> 00:15:27,133 But they they would tell us that because kids were getting kidnaped, right? 333 00:15:27,133 --> 00:15:29,600 When people were, saying, oh, you're your father. 334 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,466 I'm a friend with your father. Right? And he told me to take you home. 335 00:15:32,466 --> 00:15:32,700 Yeah. 336 00:15:32,700 --> 00:15:35,766 And like, so kids sometimes wouldn't know the difference. 337 00:15:35,766 --> 00:15:36,700 You know the father's name. 338 00:15:36,700 --> 00:15:38,900 They say. You know this, I know this about your family. 339 00:15:38,900 --> 00:15:41,000 So you assume that kids are more trusting 340 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:45,133 that haven't been through the level of, exposure and experience that adults have. 341 00:15:45,233 --> 00:15:48,133 So we had we had, like, passwords that we all have to know. 342 00:15:48,133 --> 00:15:51,100 And it's funny, like, I feel like that needs to come back now. 343 00:15:51,100 --> 00:15:52,333 Like people. People didn't. 344 00:15:52,333 --> 00:15:54,833 People don't think about that as much now, but it's it's 345 00:15:54,833 --> 00:15:56,133 because people don't get strangers. 346 00:15:56,133 --> 00:15:58,633 Don't pick up the kids. Most, we have helicopter people now. 347 00:15:58,633 --> 00:16:01,666 Our moms and dads, like, everything is like, encapsulated, 348 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,033 but it's not really what did with the digital world, is it? 349 00:16:05,033 --> 00:16:05,800 It's not. 350 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,966 And the digital world, it scales differently. 351 00:16:10,633 --> 00:16:15,166 So you don't need to call one latchkey service at a time 352 00:16:15,433 --> 00:16:19,033 with AI, with being online, you can replicate things very, 353 00:16:19,066 --> 00:16:22,433 very quickly and it can be a one man shop or operation. 354 00:16:22,433 --> 00:16:26,566 So there's a huge difference in scale when we're looking at this online. 355 00:16:26,666 --> 00:16:27,033 Yeah. 356 00:16:27,033 --> 00:16:30,133 I also remember an example that we, that we talked when we first met. 357 00:16:30,133 --> 00:16:34,900 Yeah, about how digital safety affects the most vulnerable populations. 358 00:16:35,100 --> 00:16:37,166 Like I love for you to to to talk through that example. 359 00:16:37,166 --> 00:16:41,733 We talked about like women that are for example, like women 360 00:16:41,733 --> 00:16:46,266 that are recovering from, violent acts and domestic abuse. 361 00:16:46,266 --> 00:16:46,633 Yeah. 362 00:16:46,633 --> 00:16:49,400 Like that go to organizations like Women Helping Women. 363 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,400 You know, you really talked about how digital safety can affect, 364 00:16:52,700 --> 00:16:55,833 people like that, that I never thought about, talk about, like, 365 00:16:56,033 --> 00:16:59,200 why even even the most vulnerable populations 366 00:17:00,266 --> 00:17:02,800 could actually be, more at risk as well. 367 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:03,166 Yeah. 368 00:17:03,166 --> 00:17:07,333 So what we're seeing a lot now in the landscape through our research 369 00:17:07,333 --> 00:17:11,266 is that there's various areas, there's human trafficking, 370 00:17:11,266 --> 00:17:14,000 there's intimate partner violence and domestic abuse, 371 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:15,966 that we're seeing a lot of these things happening. 372 00:17:15,966 --> 00:17:19,033 And then there's school bullying and sextortion. 373 00:17:19,033 --> 00:17:25,033 So, let's go to to the first example is that, in women's shelters, 374 00:17:25,266 --> 00:17:31,033 there's research that's been done in Europe that found that 79% of women 375 00:17:31,233 --> 00:17:35,933 who went to a shelter for domestic abuse were tracked in some way or form online. 376 00:17:36,133 --> 00:17:37,300 Wow. There. 377 00:17:37,300 --> 00:17:40,366 But the national Network to End Domestic Violence, which is here in, 378 00:17:40,366 --> 00:17:45,800 in the US, you know, they found that it was 100% of people, 379 00:17:46,266 --> 00:17:49,333 and now they surveyed, probably like a couple thousand less. 380 00:17:49,333 --> 00:17:52,733 but either way, the survey was over 3000 people. 381 00:17:52,933 --> 00:17:56,600 So it is a significant amount of people who are saying that online, 382 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:57,433 I'm being tracked. 383 00:17:57,433 --> 00:18:00,400 And this could be if my Snapchat location is on 384 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,666 for those that you Snapchat, it could be my car. 385 00:18:02,666 --> 00:18:05,500 is being tracked. It could be my phone. 386 00:18:05,500 --> 00:18:07,066 It could be more, 387 00:18:07,066 --> 00:18:11,100 like the Apple AirTags, which are very common to slip into a car. 388 00:18:11,100 --> 00:18:13,266 I just talked to a young woman who had that happened to her. 389 00:18:13,266 --> 00:18:14,933 She has no idea who is from. 390 00:18:14,933 --> 00:18:17,466 So there are various ways of tracking and stalking. 391 00:18:17,466 --> 00:18:20,366 That's that's done. So how does Snapchat tracking chat? 392 00:18:20,366 --> 00:18:21,700 You can turn your location on. 393 00:18:21,700 --> 00:18:25,533 They have an they have a piece that's called Snapchat maps. 394 00:18:25,566 --> 00:18:27,066 Right. And you can turn your location on. 395 00:18:27,066 --> 00:18:29,233 You can see where people are at at all times. Yeah. 396 00:18:29,233 --> 00:18:30,866 And it's pretty common for her. 397 00:18:30,866 --> 00:18:33,966 Used to have that on some are very selective about 398 00:18:33,966 --> 00:18:37,000 which friends have it, but some partners may demand 399 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,933 that you have these types of things on, and if you don't, you will get in trouble. 400 00:18:40,933 --> 00:18:41,566 As an example. 401 00:18:41,566 --> 00:18:44,433 And what type of tools do they have in place, like you said, like this is 402 00:18:45,433 --> 00:18:46,866 like Snapchat should probably do 403 00:18:46,866 --> 00:18:51,166 a lot more to warn to warn kids, or maybe turn that on and off to say, do you? 404 00:18:51,466 --> 00:18:53,800 I know, like, Apple at least started doing that. 405 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:55,900 Like, do you want to stay or do you want to stay on? 406 00:18:55,900 --> 00:18:57,966 But I think with kids they probably needs to be 407 00:18:57,966 --> 00:19:00,566 another level of, protection and safety. Absolutely. 408 00:19:00,566 --> 00:19:02,100 And kids are using it all the time to figure out, 409 00:19:02,100 --> 00:19:04,933 like who's at what party or where they're going with things to. 410 00:19:04,933 --> 00:19:07,100 That's that's tough. Like, 411 00:19:07,100 --> 00:19:10,100 so how do you balance this when you think about like, 412 00:19:11,533 --> 00:19:16,700 how do we balance the obviously the innovation and having the right 413 00:19:16,700 --> 00:19:20,700 balance between what, what I guess policy or regulation needs to look like? 414 00:19:20,933 --> 00:19:25,366 obviously you and I are both believers in policy and regulation somewhere here 415 00:19:25,366 --> 00:19:29,233 that and say like you create regulation, it's going to kill innovation. 416 00:19:29,333 --> 00:19:30,133 Yeah, right. 417 00:19:30,133 --> 00:19:32,466 That's the line. What's your response to that. 418 00:19:32,466 --> 00:19:34,700 Yeah, that's a that's a good question. 419 00:19:34,700 --> 00:19:39,933 I the way that I think about it is that most organizations 420 00:19:39,933 --> 00:19:43,933 that are, that are doing this, have good intentions, 421 00:19:43,933 --> 00:19:47,900 they're trying to make good products, and I don't blame them at all. 422 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,200 The areas that I'm really looking toward, 423 00:19:51,466 --> 00:19:54,233 is when it comes to bad actors. 424 00:19:54,233 --> 00:19:56,500 So when it comes to corporate policy and privacy, 425 00:19:56,500 --> 00:19:59,333 there is this culture of surveillance capitalism. Yes. 426 00:19:59,333 --> 00:20:01,333 The The Punk Foundation doesn't focus on that, 427 00:20:01,333 --> 00:20:04,833 although where where that happens, we're more focused on how we can help 428 00:20:04,833 --> 00:20:07,933 with bad actors, but, help fight against bad actors. 429 00:20:07,933 --> 00:20:08,366 Sorry. 430 00:20:08,366 --> 00:20:11,633 and but when we look at the, the corporate area, 431 00:20:13,066 --> 00:20:14,366 the way that I see it 432 00:20:14,366 --> 00:20:17,466 and this is a, the more personal take, but the way that I see it 433 00:20:17,466 --> 00:20:22,700 is that they have been using a technology before regulation. 434 00:20:22,700 --> 00:20:26,633 So everything before regulation is sort of a gravy train for them. 435 00:20:26,633 --> 00:20:27,600 But there are. 436 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,433 But then the consequences that they have 437 00:20:30,433 --> 00:20:33,433 will not allow for what they're doing to be sustainable in the long run. 438 00:20:33,433 --> 00:20:33,800 Right? 439 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,866 If they're if they're taking everything and bastardize it and sucking it in 440 00:20:38,066 --> 00:20:38,900 and turning it out is 441 00:20:38,900 --> 00:20:42,766 I you're going to have a lot of problems of quality data that exists. 442 00:20:43,033 --> 00:20:45,966 You're going to have a lot of problems of, 443 00:20:45,966 --> 00:20:50,533 taking and, and, just having massive amounts of siloed data 444 00:20:50,533 --> 00:20:53,266 that when cyber attacks happen, now you have data 445 00:20:53,266 --> 00:20:56,033 you shouldn't have collected to begin with or you should have purged. 446 00:20:56,033 --> 00:20:59,033 And now it's affecting as a national security risk. 447 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,100 So, the Biden administration actually released, 448 00:21:03,100 --> 00:21:07,233 about around October, a bill for cyber security 449 00:21:07,233 --> 00:21:11,200 where they're funding, for people to get jobs in cybersecurity. 450 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,133 And this does tie into privacy and digital safety, 451 00:21:14,133 --> 00:21:18,166 but they want to because all of the top businesses are not equipped, 452 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,400 for example, what China has 453 00:21:21,566 --> 00:21:25,400 when it comes to their, ability to hack. 454 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,666 As an example, when it comes to missile launching, 455 00:21:27,666 --> 00:21:30,100 when it comes to, let's say, if P&G shuts down, 456 00:21:30,100 --> 00:21:34,233 you know, because of cyber, cyber attacks or something along those lines, 457 00:21:34,366 --> 00:21:37,933 or a coordinated effort that shuts down multitudes of hospitals. 458 00:21:38,066 --> 00:21:42,166 So we're looking at this from a national security and defense, type of thing. 459 00:21:42,166 --> 00:21:45,666 And businesses in the United States have a lot of freedom compared 460 00:21:45,666 --> 00:21:51,866 to a lot of other countries to navigate, but we need some type of unity of 461 00:21:51,866 --> 00:21:55,800 how are we protecting our citizens, which in turns protects the country. 462 00:21:55,933 --> 00:21:59,566 So it is a national security risk, by the Biden administration. 463 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:01,200 that's very, very interesting. 464 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,100 It's a national security risk. 465 00:22:03,100 --> 00:22:07,033 And so you kind of answer one of my questions like, how do you see 466 00:22:07,033 --> 00:22:07,900 navigating this? 467 00:22:07,900 --> 00:22:12,133 If you were, I guess, president and ruler for a day 468 00:22:12,133 --> 00:22:16,166 where you had the control of Congress and your president and Senate, 469 00:22:17,500 --> 00:22:19,733 what laws would you pass to, to, 470 00:22:19,733 --> 00:22:23,433 to to help us with both privacy and digital safety? 471 00:22:23,733 --> 00:22:24,066 Yeah. 472 00:22:24,066 --> 00:22:29,166 So I think mimicking the GDPR is probably the best place to start in America. 473 00:22:29,166 --> 00:22:30,433 Tell me what the GDPR is. Yeah. 474 00:22:30,433 --> 00:22:34,500 So that's the the European Union's, privacy law. 475 00:22:34,700 --> 00:22:37,766 And it's, basically it's global. 476 00:22:37,766 --> 00:22:40,200 So it's like imagine be a federal law here. 477 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,200 And, it controls, 478 00:22:43,300 --> 00:22:46,266 what amount of data a company can collect the limits. 479 00:22:46,266 --> 00:22:49,866 And, it's very complicated and very thorough. 480 00:22:50,533 --> 00:22:53,733 but the main thing is that your privacy is a fundamental right. 481 00:22:54,166 --> 00:22:57,766 And to have access as a company or as an organization to the privacy, 482 00:22:57,766 --> 00:23:00,766 the person needs very clear consent saying, yes. 483 00:23:00,833 --> 00:23:03,266 Exactly. And they can revoke that at any time. 484 00:23:03,266 --> 00:23:06,200 And they say, hey, never mind. I don't want you to have my data. 485 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,333 The only exceptions, there's a few exceptions 486 00:23:08,333 --> 00:23:11,333 and I'm not an expert on GDPR, but there are a few exceptions 487 00:23:11,700 --> 00:23:14,033 that when it comes to like a court case as an example. 488 00:23:14,033 --> 00:23:16,933 Yeah. So fairly reasonable exceptions. 489 00:23:16,933 --> 00:23:17,300 Right. 490 00:23:17,300 --> 00:23:22,966 and but the most important philosophical thing in the difference is that in 491 00:23:22,966 --> 00:23:26,733 the United States, privacy is an asset that you trade for services. 492 00:23:27,766 --> 00:23:28,433 That's good. 493 00:23:28,433 --> 00:23:28,633 Yeah. 494 00:23:28,633 --> 00:23:31,600 And you're that's bad but it's a good line. 495 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,433 so yeah it's a bar. 496 00:23:33,433 --> 00:23:34,233 Yeah. It's a bar. 497 00:23:34,233 --> 00:23:37,233 It's a bar. But like is that is bad. Yes. 498 00:23:37,500 --> 00:23:40,066 Say that again one more time because I think that's important is 499 00:23:40,066 --> 00:23:41,400 to drop the bar again okay. 500 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,933 So in the United States privacy is an asset that you trade for services. 501 00:23:45,933 --> 00:23:47,866 Convenience, whatever that is. 502 00:23:47,866 --> 00:23:50,466 in Europe it's a fundamental human right. 503 00:23:50,466 --> 00:23:54,333 And the United Nations that actually they have a, bill of fundamental 504 00:23:54,333 --> 00:23:54,933 human rights. 505 00:23:54,933 --> 00:23:58,666 Article 12 is about privacy is of being a fundamental human right. 506 00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:04,333 And to be frank, in the developing world, the US is very behind on this. Yes. 507 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,133 and we have patchwork laws. 508 00:24:06,133 --> 00:24:10,200 So like California has CcpA, which is the California Privacy Act 509 00:24:11,033 --> 00:24:14,400 and it's emulated from European Union's GDPR. 510 00:24:14,566 --> 00:24:16,633 Right. So they're they're using that. 511 00:24:16,633 --> 00:24:18,166 But that's only in California. 512 00:24:18,166 --> 00:24:18,766 Right. 513 00:24:18,766 --> 00:24:21,766 And Colorado has a few things Virginia has a few things. 514 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:23,933 Kentucky is passing a bill. 515 00:24:23,933 --> 00:24:27,233 And it's it's like a slap on the wrist for organizations that violate it. 516 00:24:27,900 --> 00:24:29,000 But it's a start. Right? 517 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,800 So there are various we call it a patchwork framework. 518 00:24:32,966 --> 00:24:33,200 Right. 519 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,433 but there's nothing federal that's, that's happening. 520 00:24:36,433 --> 00:24:41,000 And that's something that would be ideally the best place to start. 521 00:24:41,466 --> 00:24:44,900 Oh, no, that's that's, very well said. So. 522 00:24:45,233 --> 00:24:47,900 All right. They we don't have policy now. 523 00:24:47,900 --> 00:24:50,800 It's obviously in the US is the wild, wild West. 524 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,133 Privacy is an asset. 525 00:24:52,133 --> 00:24:55,133 It's not a right in in the US unfortunately. 526 00:24:55,466 --> 00:24:57,833 what are some steps people can take. 527 00:24:57,833 --> 00:24:59,800 Like what are some practical steps you talked about for you 528 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,200 you talked about having multiple, forms of authentication. 529 00:25:05,066 --> 00:25:08,433 what are some things that you think were some basic things people can do 530 00:25:08,666 --> 00:25:12,200 or places they can go to learn about steps they can take to protect themselves? 531 00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:15,600 Yeah. So I think that when it comes 532 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,733 to individuals, just being aware is half the battle. 533 00:25:18,933 --> 00:25:19,266 Yeah. 534 00:25:19,266 --> 00:25:22,300 Because when you're aware of what's actually happening, there are few 535 00:25:22,300 --> 00:25:22,933 resources. 536 00:25:22,933 --> 00:25:25,400 The Plug Foundation's website, it's Plunk Foundation. 537 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:26,933 Org plunk. 538 00:25:26,933 --> 00:25:27,800 Yes. By the way, it's 539 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,900 an acronym for peaceful, loving, uplifting, nurturing and kind. 540 00:25:31,900 --> 00:25:33,700 So that's why plunk. There you go. 541 00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:36,566 so plunk foundation.org has resources on this. 542 00:25:36,566 --> 00:25:39,566 There are other things such as the center for Humane Technology, 543 00:25:39,733 --> 00:25:43,266 the Mozilla Foundation, DuckDuckGo has a blog. 544 00:25:43,266 --> 00:25:46,300 It's like a Google search engine that's that's privacy centric. 545 00:25:46,633 --> 00:25:50,100 there are there's the International Association 546 00:25:50,100 --> 00:25:53,100 for Privacy Professionals, AIA. 547 00:25:53,333 --> 00:25:55,300 Those are all really good resources. 548 00:25:55,300 --> 00:26:00,333 The EFF has a really, really good write ups on such things, such as like 549 00:26:00,333 --> 00:26:04,866 police surveillance and how that's being used and, things you can do about. 550 00:26:05,166 --> 00:26:08,166 And they also have a ton of lawyers on their team 551 00:26:08,333 --> 00:26:13,100 that actually go to battle in court and try to win cases when it comes to privacy, 552 00:26:13,500 --> 00:26:17,566 those are all really good things in terms of practical, actionable steps. 553 00:26:18,033 --> 00:26:21,100 we are building a curriculum at plunk to do this. 554 00:26:22,100 --> 00:26:22,633 and to put it 555 00:26:22,633 --> 00:26:25,900 online and make it available, but extremely basic. 556 00:26:25,933 --> 00:26:27,333 I'll give it a few, like right off the bat. 557 00:26:27,333 --> 00:26:29,000 Yeah. extremely basic. 558 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,133 one is make sure your devices are updated. 559 00:26:32,633 --> 00:26:36,233 if you even if you have good privacy in place, if the device isn't updated, 560 00:26:36,233 --> 00:26:37,633 it's easy to get into. 561 00:26:37,633 --> 00:26:40,200 So make sure you update your device hands down. 562 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,033 That's that's the best thing to is that you want to make sure 563 00:26:44,033 --> 00:26:48,866 that you have at least a junk email address where you can if you 564 00:26:49,433 --> 00:26:51,500 if you go to a store and they ask for your email address 565 00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:55,933 for 20% off, 30% off, whatever that is, typically I would say don't do it. 566 00:26:55,933 --> 00:26:57,700 But if you want to make it easy, just have a junk 567 00:26:57,700 --> 00:27:02,066 email address, with information that's not relevant to you. 568 00:27:02,066 --> 00:27:04,800 it doesn't have your address, stuff like that. 569 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,233 That's a good way to go about it. 570 00:27:06,233 --> 00:27:10,266 And here's a really interesting one that, if you go to the doctor 571 00:27:10,500 --> 00:27:14,566 and they or if you go pretty much anywhere and they want to scan your ID, 572 00:27:15,933 --> 00:27:16,300 they don't 573 00:27:16,300 --> 00:27:20,133 need to scan your ID, they can verify that it's you and you can say, hey, 574 00:27:20,133 --> 00:27:23,466 I would like for you, you can verify this is me, but you don't need to scan it. 575 00:27:23,666 --> 00:27:23,966 Right? 576 00:27:23,966 --> 00:27:26,133 Because a lot of companies take that, they scan it, 577 00:27:26,133 --> 00:27:29,466 and now they have a ton of information about you that they don't need, 578 00:27:29,633 --> 00:27:33,933 and they store it, or they resell it or share it with other third party members. 579 00:27:34,266 --> 00:27:35,733 And you don't need to do that. 580 00:27:35,733 --> 00:27:36,466 So if you have a kid 581 00:27:36,466 --> 00:27:39,900 or anything along those lines too, don't need to do any of that scanning. 582 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,833 you don't need to give your social for a lot of places. 583 00:27:42,833 --> 00:27:45,733 So it's always good when somebody says, May I have your social? 584 00:27:45,733 --> 00:27:49,200 You can ask, is that required for us to continue this transaction? 585 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,366 Right. even at a doctor's office? It's not. 586 00:27:51,366 --> 00:27:54,466 It's an often not so they don't need any of that information. 587 00:27:54,466 --> 00:27:56,833 So doctors, we sell your stuff too. 588 00:27:56,833 --> 00:27:59,233 So yeah. 589 00:27:59,233 --> 00:28:01,366 I know this isn't going to be a clickbait moment, 590 00:28:01,366 --> 00:28:05,166 but there's, there's a law called or there's an act called HIPAA, 591 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,133 which is the health information privacy. Yes. 592 00:28:07,133 --> 00:28:08,133 So they can do that. 593 00:28:08,133 --> 00:28:11,233 So what happens is there's a barrier that you have to meet. 594 00:28:11,533 --> 00:28:15,733 You have to be, some type of person, 595 00:28:15,733 --> 00:28:20,166 that or entity that crosses this, this barrier of health information. 596 00:28:20,533 --> 00:28:22,200 Once you do, 597 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,100 which means you meet a lot of the federal regulations, 598 00:28:25,100 --> 00:28:27,200 you have to meet all these federal regulations. 599 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,633 Once you do, you have the ability to transact 600 00:28:29,633 --> 00:28:32,666 with people who who have reached that barrier. 601 00:28:32,666 --> 00:28:33,166 Right? Yeah. 602 00:28:33,166 --> 00:28:37,066 So so you can share or they can share information. 603 00:28:37,066 --> 00:28:40,066 And some of that is like the part of me that is conflicted on that. 604 00:28:41,933 --> 00:28:44,433 What does not conflict is I understand even when things are used for good 605 00:28:44,433 --> 00:28:47,600 purposes, people find ways to use them for nefarious purposes, I get it. 606 00:28:48,366 --> 00:28:51,866 The other part of that, though, is of course, the sharing of information 607 00:28:51,866 --> 00:28:56,233 helps to prevent, diseases, helps you learn about causes. 608 00:28:56,533 --> 00:28:58,666 So, I mean, 609 00:28:58,666 --> 00:29:00,633 figuring out that balance of what that is, 610 00:29:00,633 --> 00:29:04,166 because I do think that's important and I don't have the answers is important. 611 00:29:04,166 --> 00:29:05,766 I mean, I 612 00:29:05,766 --> 00:29:08,900 so I do think it has to be like, because the sharing of that data, 613 00:29:08,900 --> 00:29:11,066 the problem is people don't trust that you'll do something 614 00:29:11,066 --> 00:29:14,033 like what shouldn't be shared is if somebody has a, 615 00:29:14,033 --> 00:29:17,000 a condition that shouldn't be shared with the insurance company 616 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:18,366 to figure out ways, right. 617 00:29:18,366 --> 00:29:20,266 so they can maybe not, 618 00:29:20,266 --> 00:29:22,033 or they're not supposed to be able to not give you an assurance. 619 00:29:22,033 --> 00:29:25,133 But we all know they can find ways to make it difficult for things 620 00:29:25,133 --> 00:29:26,733 not to be covered. Still. 621 00:29:26,733 --> 00:29:29,066 yes, that's the worry I have. 622 00:29:29,066 --> 00:29:31,033 But I'm like, I also know share the sharing 623 00:29:31,033 --> 00:29:34,900 of the information for things like understanding health patterns. 624 00:29:34,900 --> 00:29:37,166 You introduce things like doppelgangers that have people 625 00:29:37,166 --> 00:29:39,133 have similar profiles to you. 626 00:29:39,133 --> 00:29:40,900 Like what do you think is the balance there 627 00:29:40,900 --> 00:29:43,300 times of figuring out how we share data? 628 00:29:43,300 --> 00:29:44,000 But it's not. 629 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,733 It's probably regulation to find out the answer to my question on that. But. 630 00:29:46,733 --> 00:29:49,333 Well, it's it's actually a pretty simple solution. 631 00:29:49,333 --> 00:29:51,566 Okay. And and Facebook can do this with advertising. 632 00:29:51,566 --> 00:29:53,133 Lots of organizations can do this. 633 00:29:53,133 --> 00:29:57,033 It's just that don't attach personally identifiable information. 634 00:29:57,133 --> 00:29:59,666 Oh yeah. To it. Anonymize the data. 635 00:29:59,666 --> 00:29:59,900 Right. 636 00:29:59,900 --> 00:30:05,433 Like, hey, we you know, maybe there's 7000 cases in Cincinnati of this thing. 637 00:30:05,633 --> 00:30:08,600 We don't need to be able to trace it back to who those people are. 638 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,033 It's anonymized data. 639 00:30:10,033 --> 00:30:13,933 And, I know for the nerds out there, they're going to say, well, 640 00:30:13,933 --> 00:30:17,533 I has the ability to anonymize data right through that. 641 00:30:17,833 --> 00:30:21,366 There are techniques that brilliant people even in the university. 642 00:30:22,033 --> 00:30:23,033 Yes. Yes. 643 00:30:23,033 --> 00:30:28,333 And, well, they add noise, so you can't identify exactly who has what condition. 644 00:30:28,333 --> 00:30:31,266 And so there are brilliant people coming up with these solutions. 645 00:30:31,266 --> 00:30:34,466 And to go to your question about, how do we have, 646 00:30:34,466 --> 00:30:37,700 innovation, you know, and privacy. 647 00:30:37,700 --> 00:30:41,266 There's so much innovation happening in this realm that protects us, too, 648 00:30:41,433 --> 00:30:43,566 and there's so much innovation that's going on. 649 00:30:43,566 --> 00:30:47,133 I think, to answer my own question out loud, I think we do have policy. 650 00:30:47,700 --> 00:30:50,800 And we started synthesizing investment the same way we started doing, 651 00:30:50,966 --> 00:30:53,100 sustainability. Right, right. 652 00:30:53,100 --> 00:30:54,766 So now you're seeing all of this happen 653 00:30:54,766 --> 00:30:57,766 and all this happened all across Ohio, but really all across the country, 654 00:30:57,900 --> 00:31:00,900 that there's just solar power farms being built everywhere. 655 00:31:00,933 --> 00:31:02,400 Of course, there are people that are trying to be against it 656 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,233 because they want to keep the money train the same way it's always been. 657 00:31:05,233 --> 00:31:07,966 I'm sure there will be people that want to keep data the way. 658 00:31:07,966 --> 00:31:09,700 It's the way it's always been, because that's how 659 00:31:09,700 --> 00:31:10,700 they've always made their money. 660 00:31:10,700 --> 00:31:14,100 Yeah, but to the point is, there's lots of there's lots of jobs being created 661 00:31:14,100 --> 00:31:16,466 that way, lots of opportunities being created that way. 662 00:31:16,466 --> 00:31:17,300 Yeah. 663 00:31:17,300 --> 00:31:20,666 If we start having a renaissance towards okay, we can protect people's privacy 664 00:31:21,133 --> 00:31:21,900 and still innovate. 665 00:31:21,900 --> 00:31:24,433 And we want to incentivize that type of activity. 666 00:31:24,433 --> 00:31:27,033 That to me is one of the main purposes of policy. 667 00:31:27,033 --> 00:31:27,200 Yeah. 668 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,933 Policy is actually it is a guiding principle to say 669 00:31:30,933 --> 00:31:33,933 this is the type of society we want to be, and we never get it perfect. 670 00:31:33,933 --> 00:31:35,266 We can't overdo it. 671 00:31:35,266 --> 00:31:39,700 But I like the concept of how do we incentivize people to innovate. 672 00:31:39,733 --> 00:31:40,666 It protects privacy. 673 00:31:40,666 --> 00:31:43,800 We have the you talked about what you do in terms of, 674 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,800 the solution to scrub out the noise using AI. 675 00:31:46,933 --> 00:31:49,966 I mean, there's also blockchains involved in the zero proof knowledge. 676 00:31:49,966 --> 00:31:53,433 You're able to, hold data like collect data. 677 00:31:53,866 --> 00:31:56,300 That's, that's that's totally private. 678 00:31:56,300 --> 00:32:00,600 But then you can still know about the data without knowing the data. 679 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,866 Like, I know it sounds weird, but it's the same type of thing you're talking about. 680 00:32:03,866 --> 00:32:07,033 Like it's a way of proving things without knowing the details of a person, 681 00:32:07,533 --> 00:32:10,000 which I think though we have the technology to do. 682 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,800 This is just what problem are we trying to solve a society? 683 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,733 And right now we've just said nothing more important than just how fast we can 684 00:32:16,733 --> 00:32:20,666 just, make profits without any type of, thought about, 685 00:32:20,966 --> 00:32:23,866 should we do all of these things and how should we do them? 686 00:32:23,866 --> 00:32:24,500 Yeah, totally. 687 00:32:24,500 --> 00:32:27,600 And one thing, you know, that this is an issue 688 00:32:27,966 --> 00:32:32,633 that is sort of bipartisan, you know, because you will talk to, 689 00:32:32,633 --> 00:32:36,100 a ton of different people from both sides of the aisle. 690 00:32:36,433 --> 00:32:39,366 And, you know, it's something that needs regulation 691 00:32:39,366 --> 00:32:43,100 when people on the right are saying, hey, I don't even believe in regulation. 692 00:32:43,100 --> 00:32:46,533 But this I know what I'm into deep. 693 00:32:46,533 --> 00:32:47,600 I know that there's. 694 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,633 Something that they know their kids are vulnerable. 695 00:32:49,633 --> 00:32:51,133 Yes. And another thing too, 696 00:32:51,133 --> 00:32:55,166 is that a lot of things that we're seeing is that you could be an affluent family, 697 00:32:55,733 --> 00:32:59,933 but this could still happen to your kid all in all, it takes is just one moment 698 00:32:59,933 --> 00:33:01,400 where, hey, mom. Hey, dad, I hate you. 699 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,900 You don't understand me. And then they put this online. 700 00:33:03,900 --> 00:33:08,400 I used to talk crap about my parents under a tree house, right? 701 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:09,166 Right. 702 00:33:09,166 --> 00:33:11,133 But the digital. Tree house exists. 703 00:33:11,133 --> 00:33:11,966 Yeah, where you're. 704 00:33:11,966 --> 00:33:15,233 Spewing that, and it just takes somebody who can identify 705 00:33:15,233 --> 00:33:19,233 through sentiment analysis, through using AI, and pinpointing 706 00:33:19,233 --> 00:33:22,700 exact locations of who may be having fits with their parents at this moment. 707 00:33:23,033 --> 00:33:24,233 to understand. 708 00:33:25,333 --> 00:33:25,633 Okay. 709 00:33:25,633 --> 00:33:27,333 These are vulnerable children. Yeah. 710 00:33:27,333 --> 00:33:29,100 And it just takes one connection. 711 00:33:29,100 --> 00:33:32,100 You can buy their data for five bucks to understand what their interests are. 712 00:33:32,466 --> 00:33:35,100 You can say, okay, it just takes this one connection 713 00:33:35,100 --> 00:33:38,366 with this child who's having a bad moment with their parents online. 714 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,000 And that's all it takes to start something like that. 715 00:33:42,166 --> 00:33:45,400 So people are understanding like both sides of the aisle, 716 00:33:45,666 --> 00:33:49,933 all sides of the income economic ladder are people that are affected from this. 717 00:33:50,333 --> 00:33:53,100 What happens if we don't get this right? 718 00:33:53,100 --> 00:33:57,333 Well, I think it's going to get sort of like climate change. 719 00:33:57,333 --> 00:33:59,966 It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. 720 00:33:59,966 --> 00:34:03,666 and but I do see hope. 721 00:34:03,900 --> 00:34:09,366 so it's hard to predict, how I, will make this worse. 722 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,666 It's hard to predict, how bad actors, because they're very smart. 723 00:34:12,666 --> 00:34:13,666 I'm asking you to predict. 724 00:34:13,666 --> 00:34:16,366 What do you think that looks like? If we don't get it right. 725 00:34:16,366 --> 00:34:17,366 I think 726 00:34:18,966 --> 00:34:21,833 it's going to be a lot more like Brave New World. 727 00:34:21,833 --> 00:34:22,966 Have you seen Brave New World? Yes. 728 00:34:22,966 --> 00:34:25,100 Or. I mean, read the book. 729 00:34:25,100 --> 00:34:28,900 It's essentially where people kind of understand 730 00:34:28,900 --> 00:34:31,900 that this is happening, but they don't care that much. 731 00:34:32,033 --> 00:34:36,300 And there will be large corporations or large governments 732 00:34:36,300 --> 00:34:40,333 that are using that to understand everything about you and nudging 733 00:34:40,333 --> 00:34:41,800 how you think and what you think. 734 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,533 Over time, there will be bad actors 735 00:34:44,533 --> 00:34:48,400 who are exploiting this to get their way with whatever they want. 736 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,733 and this could be not even just from a kids and, 737 00:34:51,833 --> 00:34:54,766 you know, vulnerable population perspective, but from policy. 738 00:34:54,766 --> 00:34:55,166 Absolutely. 739 00:34:55,166 --> 00:34:58,433 so it looks very bleak, to be honest with you. 740 00:34:58,433 --> 00:34:59,000 So, yeah, 741 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:03,366 that it's a world where the algorithms know us better than we know ourselves, 742 00:35:03,666 --> 00:35:05,266 and we don't even know that that's happening. 743 00:35:05,266 --> 00:35:06,933 Like you said, and I. 744 00:35:06,933 --> 00:35:08,500 And to take it further, 745 00:35:08,500 --> 00:35:12,100 like we can get to the point where it it sounds really freaky, right, 746 00:35:13,033 --> 00:35:14,200 that algorithms 747 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,066 own most of people and corporations and nations. 748 00:35:18,066 --> 00:35:21,066 Now, that sounds weird until you realize 749 00:35:21,733 --> 00:35:24,733 that most holders of land aren't. 750 00:35:25,133 --> 00:35:27,933 People are organizations. 751 00:35:27,933 --> 00:35:32,100 So imagine if we if we're okay with algorithms, 752 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,400 because this is very possible that algorithms can eventually determine, 753 00:35:36,966 --> 00:35:40,633 who owns land, how policy is written, all those things that we don't even know. 754 00:35:40,766 --> 00:35:42,833 Like, I know it sounds like science fiction, 755 00:35:42,833 --> 00:35:46,333 but it's not science fiction when you understand that if there's not, 756 00:35:46,333 --> 00:35:49,833 we don't have a guiding map for what we want in society, 757 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:54,466 how we're using artificial intelligence to augment us, right? 758 00:35:54,733 --> 00:35:57,566 Augmented intelligence, not an artificial intelligence. 759 00:35:57,566 --> 00:35:59,833 And AI, everybody is not new. 760 00:35:59,833 --> 00:36:02,700 This is this is this is algorithms and machine learning. 761 00:36:02,700 --> 00:36:04,700 All that has been going on for a long time now. 762 00:36:04,700 --> 00:36:07,600 We have another level of generative AI. 763 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,866 And so like I'm with you, I think there's a lot of hope and potential. 764 00:36:11,266 --> 00:36:14,266 But there's there's huge reasons to be concerned. 765 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:14,833 Yeah. 766 00:36:14,833 --> 00:36:18,433 It's it's hard to understate how important it is, 767 00:36:18,433 --> 00:36:21,400 but it always sounds like tinfoil hat in a way. 768 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,166 So it's and it's impossible to predict 769 00:36:24,166 --> 00:36:27,133 because this is the thing I struggle with. 770 00:36:27,133 --> 00:36:30,800 We are generating so many billions of data points, 771 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,633 just like per second with AI, and how that transforms 772 00:36:34,633 --> 00:36:38,000 without much regulation could go any direction. 773 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,266 And it's hard to predict just how bad that could be. 774 00:36:41,266 --> 00:36:41,700 Yeah. 775 00:36:41,700 --> 00:36:46,100 and, you know, if we don't look out for this 776 00:36:46,366 --> 00:36:49,600 at all, we don't know how fast it can affect us. 777 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,200 It'll go faster than we can imagine. 778 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:52,900 Yeah, it's going to be exponential. 779 00:36:52,900 --> 00:36:55,333 It's already is. It already is. Right. Like we're growing. 780 00:36:55,333 --> 00:36:55,800 That's horror. 781 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:56,833 People understand? Yeah. 782 00:36:56,833 --> 00:36:57,266 As you know, 783 00:36:57,266 --> 00:37:01,733 exponential growth is not something the human brain can actually, understand. 784 00:37:02,033 --> 00:37:04,400 So people say, well, you look like what does that mean? 785 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,633 It literally means it's growing so fast you don't understand. 786 00:37:06,633 --> 00:37:07,300 Yeah. Right. 787 00:37:07,300 --> 00:37:10,833 From the human like we understand as nerds what exponential growth looks like. 788 00:37:10,833 --> 00:37:11,700 We can see it on a chart. 789 00:37:11,700 --> 00:37:14,833 Yeah, but we really can't visualize exponential growth. 790 00:37:15,133 --> 00:37:18,733 So it's moving so fast that like, we need to this is why, you know, 791 00:37:19,333 --> 00:37:21,033 you're going to be a midwest con. 792 00:37:21,033 --> 00:37:25,166 And this is why like we're really focused on what does policy innovation look like. 793 00:37:25,166 --> 00:37:28,100 Like because we think I think you agree to that. 794 00:37:28,100 --> 00:37:31,066 We don't policy. Does it mean that we don't have innovation. 795 00:37:31,066 --> 00:37:35,366 It means that we are building trust so we can, build better innovation, 796 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:39,133 have a flexible enough policy, but a policy that sets clear rules 797 00:37:39,133 --> 00:37:42,400 so we understand how we're operating with one another. 798 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:43,833 Like I just think it's very important. Agreed. 799 00:37:43,833 --> 00:37:46,833 Like we need even we need to get to deep fakes 800 00:37:47,266 --> 00:37:51,233 and all those things that are really like, like that are really concerning people. 801 00:37:51,233 --> 00:37:52,566 So like before we leave, 802 00:37:52,566 --> 00:37:54,566 I got a couple of lightning round questions before I do this. Like 803 00:37:56,300 --> 00:37:58,333 if you had to say something that will surprise people 804 00:37:58,333 --> 00:38:01,433 the most about the lack of privacy or digital safety, 805 00:38:01,766 --> 00:38:04,466 can you think of a story or an example that exemplifies 806 00:38:04,466 --> 00:38:07,466 that? 807 00:38:07,533 --> 00:38:09,133 What surprised you the most? 808 00:38:09,133 --> 00:38:15,233 Yes. on average you have 3192 data points about you. 809 00:38:15,466 --> 00:38:18,233 And this is much better than people that are close to your friends 810 00:38:18,233 --> 00:38:19,233 may know about you. 811 00:38:19,233 --> 00:38:24,133 So this is being sold and, traded every single day 812 00:38:24,133 --> 00:38:27,400 and being aggregated for every time you accept the term and condition, 813 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,100 right, that invade your privacy. 814 00:38:30,100 --> 00:38:32,466 And I remember the one thing that you told me about, 815 00:38:32,466 --> 00:38:35,466 when you set out a picture, metadata, please tell people that the. 816 00:38:35,466 --> 00:38:36,033 White part. 817 00:38:36,033 --> 00:38:39,033 When you send out a picture and the metadata behind it, what that 818 00:38:39,033 --> 00:38:41,866 what you can just by saying, oh, yeah, one picture could. Do. Yeah. True. 819 00:38:41,866 --> 00:38:46,033 If you're uploading to Instagram or Facebook or, various sites, 820 00:38:46,033 --> 00:38:49,166 you can right click on a computer and inspect the element 821 00:38:49,433 --> 00:38:51,300 and it shows what time of day this was taken. 822 00:38:51,300 --> 00:38:54,133 What camera was taken from, GPS coordinates. 823 00:38:54,133 --> 00:38:57,300 All of that stuff is not obfuscated, for a lot of websites. 824 00:38:57,300 --> 00:39:00,900 So you're able to track people based on where they took a picture. 825 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,833 Yeah. So very scary stuff. So just think about this. 826 00:39:03,833 --> 00:39:04,066 All right? 827 00:39:04,066 --> 00:39:05,500 So I want to get to a couple of lightning 828 00:39:05,500 --> 00:39:08,500 round, lightning round questions about you. 829 00:39:08,566 --> 00:39:08,966 All right. 830 00:39:08,966 --> 00:39:11,966 So you have a committee of three, living or dead, 831 00:39:12,066 --> 00:39:16,466 to advise you on business life, digital privacy, safety, whatever you want. 832 00:39:16,500 --> 00:39:19,033 Tell me who these three people are and why. 833 00:39:19,033 --> 00:39:22,066 Marly Marlinspike would be the first one who created 834 00:39:22,066 --> 00:39:25,400 the end to end encryption that's used on WhatsApp and signal. 835 00:39:25,733 --> 00:39:31,333 So that would, be one my grandpa, who was a judge here in Cincinnati. 836 00:39:31,866 --> 00:39:32,733 Fantastic. 837 00:39:32,733 --> 00:39:35,733 and really levelheaded person. 838 00:39:35,733 --> 00:39:36,600 What's his name? 839 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:37,700 Marley. Marlinspike. 840 00:39:37,700 --> 00:39:40,733 No, no. You're my grandpa. Norman Murdock. 841 00:39:40,733 --> 00:39:42,333 Okay. Yeah, he is county commissioner. 842 00:39:42,333 --> 00:39:44,066 Judge for a while. Wow. Yeah. 843 00:39:44,066 --> 00:39:46,900 And then, you know, the third one, 844 00:39:49,466 --> 00:39:52,466 I would probably. 845 00:39:53,066 --> 00:39:55,800 And so many good people, 846 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,800 I would probably look toward, 847 00:39:59,500 --> 00:40:02,200 somebody named Steve Shahan, 848 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,700 who is a very interesting musician. 849 00:40:05,966 --> 00:40:12,000 Yeah, but he went to pretty much every single country and learned about cultures, 850 00:40:12,233 --> 00:40:15,033 and it would be just so good to get that perspective. 851 00:40:15,033 --> 00:40:19,200 because he's still alive now and has seen how cultures have evolved. 852 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,533 And he's extremely intellectual in that way. 853 00:40:21,533 --> 00:40:23,633 And I think you're going to need that perspective. 854 00:40:23,633 --> 00:40:26,233 But I think those are the three that I would go for. 855 00:40:26,233 --> 00:40:28,766 All right. 856 00:40:28,766 --> 00:40:32,900 what's an important truth you have that very few people agree with you? 857 00:40:32,900 --> 00:40:35,300 I like a hot take. 858 00:40:35,300 --> 00:40:37,266 Yeah. 859 00:40:37,266 --> 00:40:39,600 I don't like the order. 860 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,133 that is in every meeting. 861 00:40:42,133 --> 00:40:44,500 And I'm gonna write something about this. 862 00:40:44,500 --> 00:40:46,533 But you're guilty. You. 863 00:40:46,533 --> 00:40:47,800 That's what I. But. 864 00:40:48,766 --> 00:40:52,033 Yeah, but, I get emails about it all the time. 865 00:40:52,033 --> 00:40:53,166 Every media guy show up to. 866 00:40:53,166 --> 00:40:55,100 And then there are people that don't show up to the meeting 867 00:40:55,100 --> 00:40:57,200 that have it, and then I'm not in charge of the meeting. 868 00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,633 And now I see, like, all these things over. 869 00:40:59,633 --> 00:41:03,400 I've always order I not going to be a plug for validation meetings. 870 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:08,200 No, no, I, I was, talking to John Salisbury about, yeah. 871 00:41:08,433 --> 00:41:12,033 Even just like when we have a meeting or a presentation. 872 00:41:13,033 --> 00:41:16,266 making people turn off their phones, like, if it's in person. 873 00:41:16,266 --> 00:41:16,966 Yeah, like. 874 00:41:16,966 --> 00:41:20,633 Demanding people turn off their phones and just, like, creating attention. 875 00:41:20,633 --> 00:41:25,300 I also think order, on one hand, excuses people from really paying attention 876 00:41:25,300 --> 00:41:29,166 because they think they can go back to something where it's like, I want to like, 877 00:41:29,166 --> 00:41:31,200 if we're having a meeting, I want full focus, 878 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,266 I want good participation, and I don't. 879 00:41:33,266 --> 00:41:36,400 And, you know, this is a fleeting moment, so you got to pay attention. 880 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:37,600 So I like that a lot. 881 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,533 No, I think that's really important. 882 00:41:39,533 --> 00:41:41,200 And I'm guilty of what you said. 883 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:41,533 Right. 884 00:41:41,533 --> 00:41:44,566 And but, but I respect it and I know it's true. 885 00:41:44,933 --> 00:41:45,166 Right. 886 00:41:45,166 --> 00:41:47,833 Because, in the last interview I had right before you, 887 00:41:47,833 --> 00:41:50,833 we were talking about the need to make sure people don't think that 888 00:41:50,966 --> 00:41:53,866 artificial intelligence is not going to replace intelligence. 889 00:41:53,866 --> 00:41:55,633 You need to still be intelligent. 890 00:41:55,633 --> 00:41:58,100 You need to understand how to do this and have focus. 891 00:41:58,100 --> 00:41:58,333 Right? 892 00:41:58,333 --> 00:42:01,333 Because those who who are able to, 893 00:42:01,466 --> 00:42:05,033 communicate their authentic intelligence, they will be the winners. 894 00:42:05,033 --> 00:42:07,933 And in the age of artificial Intel. Totally. Right. Yeah. 895 00:42:07,933 --> 00:42:11,666 That that takes though focus, that takes presence. 896 00:42:11,666 --> 00:42:11,966 Yeah. 897 00:42:11,966 --> 00:42:15,133 That takes still grinding it out and learning those hard parts. 898 00:42:16,033 --> 00:42:19,800 and no amount of artificial intelligence will replace the need for authenticity. 899 00:42:19,833 --> 00:42:20,533 Totally. 900 00:42:20,533 --> 00:42:22,900 Like so I completely agree with you on that. 901 00:42:22,900 --> 00:42:23,233 All right. 902 00:42:23,233 --> 00:42:26,566 So, a time 903 00:42:26,566 --> 00:42:29,566 you failed in your life and how that made you better. 904 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:31,633 I fail literally every single day. 905 00:42:31,633 --> 00:42:33,266 Every single day. Welcome to the club. Yeah. 906 00:42:35,633 --> 00:42:36,900 it's always made me better. 907 00:42:36,900 --> 00:42:42,900 I think, there was one point where, back when I was first starting the slate 908 00:42:42,900 --> 00:42:46,466 up, you know, related stuff, where I wanted to quit. 909 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:52,166 And I talked to my team about it, and they gave me a a week, and, then 910 00:42:52,166 --> 00:42:55,900 I saw how much work my team was doing, and I wasn't there to lead them. 911 00:42:55,900 --> 00:42:59,666 And I felt really bad about, you know, wavering. 912 00:42:59,666 --> 00:43:00,033 Yeah. 913 00:43:00,033 --> 00:43:03,433 At that moment, and I realized that leaders need 914 00:43:04,100 --> 00:43:06,633 extreme control in their emotions, 915 00:43:06,633 --> 00:43:10,300 and they need to step up and not be that person that waver. 916 00:43:10,300 --> 00:43:11,133 So it was either 917 00:43:11,133 --> 00:43:14,566 that I should not be a leader or I need to step up in that context. 918 00:43:14,566 --> 00:43:17,666 And that was a good path for me to like, really understand that. 919 00:43:17,733 --> 00:43:18,500 That's a great point. 920 00:43:18,500 --> 00:43:21,400 I'll say is that from one leader to another, because I've felt it too. 921 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,100 You also need a safe, 922 00:43:24,100 --> 00:43:26,833 a safe place to be vulnerable 923 00:43:26,833 --> 00:43:30,000 and tell it because you're going to have doubts. 924 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,833 You're going to have, difficult times. 925 00:43:32,833 --> 00:43:35,100 Now, that mentor may not be your team. 926 00:43:35,100 --> 00:43:38,200 Maybe, maybe, at some point, maybe it can be. 927 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,633 But having people that have been through it, 928 00:43:40,633 --> 00:43:43,566 because it's always hard like it always is always hard. 929 00:43:43,566 --> 00:43:48,333 Like even even when you get to where you where you think you want to be, 930 00:43:48,566 --> 00:43:50,333 the new problems come about. 931 00:43:50,333 --> 00:43:50,933 Yeah. Right. 932 00:43:50,933 --> 00:43:52,933 And there's it's very hard for people to relate. 933 00:43:52,933 --> 00:43:55,033 It is what you're doing like your family can't. 934 00:43:55,033 --> 00:43:55,400 They can't. 935 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:56,866 That's why you need to talk to other leaders as well. 936 00:43:56,866 --> 00:43:59,133 So I tell you totally, you need to get support 937 00:43:59,133 --> 00:44:02,566 and advice from people important and have them pour into you. 938 00:44:02,966 --> 00:44:03,833 You'll help them too, 939 00:44:03,833 --> 00:44:06,033 because you're going to be you need to be vulnerable 940 00:44:06,033 --> 00:44:08,433 because if you feel like you always have to take it on, 941 00:44:08,433 --> 00:44:11,033 yeah, you might break too, which also hurt your team. 942 00:44:11,033 --> 00:44:11,433 True. 943 00:44:11,433 --> 00:44:14,100 But I agree with you in terms of regulating your emotion. 944 00:44:14,100 --> 00:44:16,033 You know, I I've had to learn that too. 945 00:44:16,033 --> 00:44:16,900 And I'm still learning 946 00:44:16,900 --> 00:44:20,033 that it's a constant process of when regulating their emotions. 947 00:44:20,033 --> 00:44:23,533 But you have to be in a place where you can also be vulnerable. 948 00:44:23,833 --> 00:44:26,766 and sometimes you have to show your team vulnerability, too. 949 00:44:26,766 --> 00:44:30,533 I think all of this stuff is balance, and I think your team showed you 950 00:44:30,766 --> 00:44:33,866 that they had your back, and that sounds like that inspired you. 951 00:44:33,866 --> 00:44:35,366 Yeah, definitely. Yeah. 952 00:44:35,366 --> 00:44:36,100 All right. 953 00:44:36,100 --> 00:44:38,600 Final, final final lightning round question. 954 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:39,733 What's your slogan? 955 00:44:39,733 --> 00:44:43,400 Your your it'll be on your that'll be on your grave. 956 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:43,833 What is it? 957 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,466 probably some like we're all going to die. 958 00:44:49,466 --> 00:44:52,366 Enjoy it. 959 00:44:52,366 --> 00:44:53,066 That's true. 960 00:44:53,066 --> 00:44:55,166 You know, don't take it too seriously. 961 00:44:55,166 --> 00:44:57,733 All right, brother, good to see you. Good to see you, too. Pleasure having you on.