[00:00:00] Teaser --- [00:00:00] Angela: we really focused on being extremely clear about the problems that we had. The 1st 1 was source data is a mess. Audience building and targeting was a pain. [00:00:10] Activation and channels were not fully orchestrated. measurement was really hard and we had no real sales and marketing connectivity. So, how are we going to solve it? And that's when the build and buy decision really started [00:00:24] we built it. Bunch of frameworks of, scoring different capabilities. [00:00:28] the call was, we're going to build a hybrid ecosystem. you know, we really need to work internally with our engineers to build a strong data foundation that. Can only solve ourselves and we're going to make the best of, 3rd party tools where we can get off the shelf capabilities. [00:00:45] That doesn't make sense for us to try to build from scratch. [00:01:14] Phil: What's up folks? Welcome to episode 161 of the Humans of Martech podcast. Today we're joined by Angela Rueda, director of Business, Martech at Meta. [00:01:24] In this episode --- [00:01:24] Phil: In this episode, we cover build versus buy meta's transformation to a hybrid MarTech stack. How to navigate enterprise MarTech vendor selections successfully? How 150 plus stakeholders at Meta actually agreed on a MarTech stack. How meta streamlines marketing asset creation, using a no-code platform, and why MarTech leaders will eventually outgrow their technical roots. [00:01:48] All that and a bunch more stuff after a super quick word from two of our awesome partners. [00:04:06] Phil: Angela. We're super excited to chat with you today. Thank you so much for your time. [00:04:10] Angela: Thank you guys. I'm so excited to talk to other Martech nerds like me. So I'm looking forward to this conversation. [00:04:18] Phil: Just a quick disclaimer that the views and opinions expressed by Angela in this episode are her own and do not necessarily reflect the official position of meta. [00:04:26] Build vs Buy: Meta’s Transformation to a Hybrid Martech Stack --- [00:04:26] Darrell: why don't we talk a little bit about, um, when you first came to Meta, I guess it was about four years ago now, ish. And, um, so like, what was the state of things? How was it a big mess or, you know, and what was your mandate mandate? Like. Like, what were you being brought on to do? Do you mind taking us back there and sharing a little bit about that story? [00:04:48] Angela: Yes, of course. You know, I was so excited, um, about the prospect of joining Meta with the mandate of, hey, we need to build our internal marketing [00:05:00] infrastructure. Um, we're doing this with Meta engineers and. It sounded so, so exciting to think, okay, I have a blank slate. I don't have to get a shelf to build something truly custom to me seemed like a perfect platform to really become an expert on how to build things. [00:05:20] And this was initially focused on the small business audience. So the idea is that. We would basically, you know, build a way to target, you know, 200 million businesses across the globe, um, with marketing. So it seemed pretty enticing. And when I came in, I realized that over the previous several years, Meta had experienced, at that point, Facebook had experienced so much growth that this custom platform had been, you know, pieced together to meet the, you know, Rapidly growing needs of the company. [00:05:56] Um, but we were just basically building on something that [00:06:00] had been very organically addressing tactical needs. And that's when I realized, wow, this might actually be a bit harder than what I was thinking of this white canvas to build. Um, and it became very feature focus. We had to address, you know, very specific needs for programs that needed to go out to market and, um. [00:06:20] Yeah. It didn't, you know, initially it said it seemed kind of tactical. I quickly came to realize that it wasn't the dream that I was expecting. But we've, you know, we've gone through a lot of change since luckily. [00:06:36] Phil: So when you say internal, you mean like Meta at the time of you joining was building custom in-house Martech tools to service different use cases. And your initial mandate was just like, let's grow that. Let's add more features, let's expand there. And then you kinda realized at some point like maybe we should outsource some of these things. [00:06:57] Is that, do I have that right? [00:06:58] Angela: Yeah, I mean. [00:07:00] Pretty much a believer. I would say for the first year, I was all about it, really trying to build the vision of, hey, here's what we're trying to build, trying to bring more strategy into how we were building that stack. And so, full, full believer. Honestly, we Are an engineering company, and it's really hard to think about going 3rd party. [00:07:25] So initially wasn't even an option. I was well bought into it and building features for it. But things shifted. Um, and I can talk a little bit more about that. Um, it was mainly as a result of organizational change. So what happened is all of business marketing came together rather than being siloed in small business marketing, large advertisers. [00:07:52] And so. With this, we had a very pressing problem because there were multiple martech stacks [00:08:00] and this was basically a golden opportunity to think, how do we approach this? Okay, great. need to rethink 1 side of the business was actually using 3rd party. The other side was using internally built tools. [00:08:16] What what is the right way to go? Because it isn't sustainable to be operating for multiple from multiple platforms. We need to centralize our processes. This was the best thing that could have happened. Um, it really allows us to then build the white canvas that I had so much dreamt about in a different way. [00:08:36] Um, and it gave us the opportunity to say, okay, let's build this martech stack from scratch and where the fun began. [00:08:45] Darrell: Yeah. Yeah. That's, uh, that really resonates with me. And I was excited when Phil said he had booked you on the show because I feel like their, uh, enterprise organizations really kind of share a lot of these things in common and, you know, I've [00:09:00] been, I've been enterprise for the last, I don't know, four to six years. [00:09:04] And it's exactly, as you said, a lot of times. You know, you want to do things like consolidate or have like a unified tech stack strategy or something that where everyone can use, but without organizational change, it's not very easy. You know, like, for example, the same thing happened in our org. Um, you, you end up having a, a, a number of smaller teams that are running as fast as they can to accomplish their own goals. [00:09:32] So doing something for the sake of everyone else is not really on there. Um, It's not really like front and center for them. They just want to do the thing that they want to do. So, but when, uh, when a big change happens, like consolidation, then all of a sudden it gives you that opportunity to be like, wait a minute, like we can do, there is a better way. [00:09:53] Um, so, so I, I really appreciate that. And, um, so, so when you.[00:10:00] [00:10:00] Why Meta Ultimately Ditched Their DIY Martech Stack --- [00:10:00] Darrell: Can you tell me a little bit more about, okay, so, so now you have this opportunity and you have this blank canvas, um, you still, it sounded like you still wanted to, um, take the team and try to build out, you know, maybe a homegrown or proprietary software, but then you started to change your mind. [00:10:20] Like what changed your mind and, and started to move you toward, okay, maybe we need to start looking at like best in class, third party solutions. [00:10:28] Angela: yeah, so yeah, 1st thing seizing the moment. We know this is our 1 window of opportunity to reassess and we were very methodical about it. So, before we thought about, hey, is this going to be an, you know. How solution or a 3rd party, we really focused on being extremely clear about the problems that we had. [00:10:52] Um, I think that that's where we started. Let's forget about the tools for now. What is it that we're trying to solve? Um, [00:11:00] leveling up those problems to get. Exact attention around this. So we, we landed on 4 on 5 problems, initially 4, but it ultimately became 5. The 1st 1 was source data is a mess. Like, how can we really identify our marketable audiences are unique universes for the different segments? [00:11:21] And so we needed to get that in order. The 2nd thing is. Audience building and targeting was a pain. You basically need a Ph. D. to come in and create an audience and a whole team of scientists to do that. And that's not sustainable because then you can't really react quickly to needs. The third thing is. [00:11:43] Activation and channels were not fully orchestrated. So we were kind of patching together omni channel experiences, but not in truly automated form. And then measurement was really hard and we had no real sales and marketing connectivity. [00:12:00] So, you know, we started there. Those were our 5 core problems to solve and we needed to make others part of the journey to feel that this were actually their problems. [00:12:11] Um, and. We, the 1st step that we took is getting exact alignment on. Yes, we need to solve for this. Um, and once we did that, we started the next stage, which is how are we going to solve it? And that's when the build and buy decision really started and this was a, you know, a very hard process because. You, you're working with people that have true skin in the game. [00:12:39] How do you get alignment from the teams that are actually doing this work to let it go? Um, so it really took a lot. And the things that you've been partnering with for years to do work together and then potentially on the table is another idea. So it's not, it's not easy. Um, but we, we built it. Bunch of frameworks [00:13:00] of, you know, scoring different capabilities. [00:13:03] What is it better? Is it, you know, privacy in house all the better challenges with privacy? 3rd party scale, um, all of the multiple variables and we were scoring through it and I'll be very honest with you. This was part of the diplomacy effort. At the end of the day, a leader needed to make a decision. [00:13:24] And that was the end of it because we could have scored this one way or another and never have come to an agreement. Somehow. We always end it like it's tied Build and buy have the same score. Um, so it was impossible. Um, so a leader had to make the call. So, ultimately. That's what happened. Um, and great. [00:13:46] Okay. We're going to actually, the call was, we're going to build a hybrid ecosystem. Um, so, you know, we really need to work internally with our engineers to build a strong data [00:14:00] foundation that. Can only solve ourselves and we're going to make the best of, you know, 3rd party tools where we can get off the shelf capabilities. [00:14:08] That doesn't make sense for us to try to build from scratch. So, this kind of hybrid approach, I think, landed much better than this versus that. Um, and that worked really well. And then the next question is great. How much is it going to cost? And who's going to pay for it? Um, and who approves the investment? [00:14:29] So, you know, it's that. 3 tier process of, hey, are those the problems? Are we all aligned? 2nd, which way are we going to go? Somebody make the decision and 3rd piece, how are we going to pay for it and building the business case for it very rigorously and everything that goes into that. [00:14:55] Phil: the show about Martech specifically, um, with different like sizes [00:15:00] of companies. And [00:15:01] Build vs Buy Was Really: Privacy Control vs Speed to Market --- [00:15:01] Phil: I'm curious to get your take on like, if you were handed The decision making power on that, like build versus by decision. Like, what are some of the arguments that, you know, bring us back to the, that, that war room when like both teams were kind of like having that out. [00:15:18] Like I personally, like a tiny like sliver of this, I was at wordpress. com kind of enterprise, but like super small scale compared to better. And we, like when I joined the company, very similar mandate to you, I was handed This like blank canvas to build an in house marketing automation platform. We had an in house CDP in house experimentation platform, like you, an engineering company. [00:15:39] So a lot of resources were doing that, but it was still not that many resources dedicated to this. And that was something I always like. Struggled fighting to get more, uh, like resources to build something. If we're going to do this internally, like we need to have like a lot of people dedicated to this. [00:15:57] We can't move at the pace that we're moving right [00:16:00] now. And there was always this dilemma of like, If we have a bunch of engineers and data engineers that are building out internal marketing technology tools and we're taking those folks away from building product and like revenue generating products that our customers can be using, like that was always the biggest debate. [00:16:18] Like WordPress was never going to sell a marketing automation platform to their CMS, right? So like bring us into that war room. Like what were some of the arguments that are really curious? t h e e [00:16:34] Angela: our engineers best leveraged using, you know, building the smart tech tools from scatch for us? Um, definitely that came into the question, but other things like, um, you know, reasons why actually build might make sense for some companies are truly privacy. Um, the kind of heavy weight. [00:16:56] Cost of data transfer and the fact that, [00:17:00] you know, any data transfer processing that you do through a 3rd party has a cost. Um, so that's something that is huge. And I know that there are other solutions, um, like, 0 copy and other options that don't require that. But, you know, in our case, there are some limitations that we're not able to use that. [00:17:17] So the high cost of moving data from 1 place to another, it's another. Um, limitation and then I would say the 3rd 1 is when you have very complex, many to many relationships, like, very, very intricate, um, circumstances, you know, like, when you do account based marketing, um, it's really complex. All the intricacies that you have to deal with mapping we haven't found. [00:17:49] As much as we have explored any off the shelf tool that is truly like off the shelf to start for this kind of unique sort of identity mapping and resolution. [00:18:00] And so, you know, in that case, the argument is like, nobody can do this for us. Only we can solve it ourselves. So I think the combination of engineering resources, data, privacy and transfer. [00:18:14] Challenges as well as a complexity of mapping, um, identities and accounts are 3 things for the buy side, right? On the, I'm sorry for the build side on the buy side. I think that, you know, speed to market, we. Ultimately, I will have to say are able to go to market in less than a year in a brand new set, bring capabilities and integrations that we could never have done through our regular model. [00:18:46] Um, the other thing is you have, you know, companies go through so many different cycles where, you know, at 1 moment, this could be the interest. Thing to invest in internally and [00:19:00] allocate resources to, but maybe tomorrow's priorities or the following year, it's not going to be. And when you're leveraging a VAR tech tool, you need it to be consistent. [00:19:10] You need it to continue to evolve with the industry. So you can't rely on the ebbs and flows of, you know, Particular company priorities. So those are some of the things that stand on both sides of the equation ultimately, but I really do think ultimately you need to think of hybrid because at the end of the day, nobody can believe that you buy a tool and that's going to solve all your problems. [00:19:35] You do need to make internal investments and figuring out how you optimize for each of those is the key thing. [00:19:44] Darrell: Yeah, I love that and I think that, um, We had Austin Hay, who's like a Martech expert on, on the pod earlier. And he said one time that it's like, it's no longer build versus buy it's build and buy. And I, so I really like, I like the, I [00:20:00] like how you can position that internally too, because, you know, you've got a ton of like engineers and product people. [00:20:07] And to say like, we're just going to buy something. So we don't. Like need your expertise. It it'll, it comes off, I think, better and more, uh, uh, they can more get behind. We really need you to customize this third party solution and it's going to be unique. It's going to be like, you know, no other platform because you know, you, you are going to help us build it. [00:20:29] Um, so I really like that. The, the privacy thing really speaks to me too. Um, Because, and a lot of people may not think this, but I used to work for AWS and, um, there are these teams called AppSec and InfoSec and all they do, I hope I'm not insulting anybody, but all they do is they try to poke holes in your stuff. [00:20:51] So every, every month they just, they, they, you know, we were using Marketo over there every month. They would be like, Hey, you know, I don't think this is, [00:21:00] uh, AppSec approved. I think, I think the data, I think you can, people can get in here. You know, you have to do something and honestly, new solutions would take like six plus months to approve because of the whole privacy thing. [00:21:13] So, so, um, at some point, maybe building tools internally does make sense when privacy is one of your number one, number one things. The thing that I've always said is that And I think like Scott Brinker, uh, you know, I've heard him, I heard him say this on a podcast earlier too, is that it's probably not efficient to build like the commoditized capabilities of like email send or, you know, hosting your servers, like there's the, because there's, there's, there's products and services there that are just ready to go. [00:21:49] And, and, you know, rather than have all of your engineers, you know, Spending so much time on these commoditized things and maintaining that, um, that I don't, I don't really agree with, but I, but I [00:22:00] do think that build and buy is the way of the future. And it's really cool to see you, see you doing that. So, so, um, so Angela, so what happened next? [00:22:09] Like, it sounds like you got the buy in it was, there were some hard decisions that you made. [00:22:14] How to Navigate Enterprise Martech Vendor Selection Successfully --- [00:22:14] Darrell: Um, did you all like jump right into vendor selection and, and Um, implementation or did you, um, you know, I remember you said you, you, you, you did a lot of the problem identification first. So did you like send, send a RFP with those problems out or like, what did you do? [00:22:33] Angela: yeah, yeah. So this was such a, a fast paced process, um, because we had to seize the moment, right? You have this kind of very unique window of, you have the reorg, you need to align all of these people, you have an investment cycle, you gotta, you have, you know, fiscal year's closing. So everything happening so fast. [00:22:55] But at the same time, it's not a decision that you can take lightly. You need to [00:23:00] bring so many people along the way. So, um, I talked a little bit about the ROI case, and I want to kind of talk a bit about that before I get into the actual, like, implementation and vendor selection, because that was such a rigorous process, actually building a business case. [00:23:18] And the reason why I go back to it is because. I live by that use case today, right? Like, I need that business case today. I go back to it and people ask me about it. And so, oh, my gosh, like, I'm so glad we spend the time and rigor in building that, um, thinking about to. Two levers, efficiency and effectiveness. [00:23:41] So there were two things that we were ultimately set out to do through this new stack. Are we going to be able to release capacity to do more, more campaigns or reinvest that time somewhere else? Um, and the 2nd thing is, are we going to deliver higher impact [00:24:00] campaigns through more targeting personalization? [00:24:03] Improved orchestration and how can we measure both of those things? And how does that ultimately reflect on on revenue? So that would be that's key and making sure that you build this business case. And you almost get check sign off from your key analytics partners, the partners that are actually. Going to claim whether there are efficiencies or not. [00:24:25] So, in our case, our operations team, they have to have the buying that they are seeing the improvements and the marketers need to see the improvements on their campaigns as well. So that was another big part of the process. But yes. Then we go into vendor selection. We went through rigorous RFP process with, um, those five problem statements. [00:24:47] We brought all of our engineering data, engineering, data science, um, marketing, all of kind of a core group, um, of the [00:25:00] organization to be part of the selection framework and. You know, we had so many demos and come back in and deep dives. And, you know, I guess when people are trying to sell, they can't complain, but we definitely squeezed every, every opportunity. [00:25:20] To deep dive, um, into very specific use cases. And even so, when I look back, I think I wish we would have done more to be honest. So I think that's really stressing on during the sales process is where. A, you're going to get everybody putting their best foot forward, but it's precisely when you have to push the most to get into the details, because everything seems possible when you're trying to, you know, you're getting a pitch from a vendor. [00:25:50] But, [00:25:51] Darrell: can I ask real quick? Did you, did you all do any sandbox testing with the [00:25:56] Angela: did. Yes, we did. Yes, we did. some sandbox [00:26:00] testing. Yes, absolutely. [00:26:01] Darrell: Okay. Okay. So that's like something that. that I learned recently because, you know, earlier when I had done Martek demo selection, it was just demos and fill out the scorecard. But now I think it, especially at the scale, uh, sandbox testing is more, um, Is, is appropriate and, and almost needed. [00:26:23] And it was actually like an interesting fight that I got into with my team because they wanted to do sandbox testing. And I said, no, like why? But, but it sounds like, uh, you all are doing that at Meta and it sounds like that you see value in it. So really good to know. [00:26:40] Angela: we did that. Also, another thing that was truly valuable is talking, talking to others. Um, you know, and hopefully, you know, there's strong network of other people like you guys that have gone through this. And it's just so valuable to listen to people that have worked with multiple vendors, the challenges that they [00:27:00] have faced. [00:27:00] So we did a lot of interviews as well. Of other companies that have gone through similar transformations, and that's definitely helpful. And at the end of the day, similar to how we ultimately came to the build and buy decision, you know, there were different opinions. And 1 thing that we did commit on is, guys, this is the train that we're getting on. [00:27:23] And let's not look back. We need buy in from everybody. We can't say, oh, I voted for that one. And that, no, there's consensus. There was consensus ultimately. And it was so critical because people, the resistance to change is so, so big at organizations. To be honest, we made everybody's job harder over the last year. [00:27:47] So who wants that? Um, but. I think that there's, you know, there's a win on the other side. And for us, it was important that everybody was on the train. [00:27:57] Darrell: Yeah, the disagree and commit thing [00:28:00] is such a big deal. And I, it sounds like, uh, you put a lot of time to make sure that everyone, I like how you said that. Let's not look back. You know, there's no reason to look back there. It's already gone. Um, but the, the way that I found helps is you have to take the time to truly hear out the other person's side, even if you don't go in that direction. [00:28:25] Yeah. You know, you can get to the point where you can say, I actually think you have a good argument. I can see that, you know, and if you can articulate their argument, like, Hey, I understand that you want this, this, and this, and that's why you believe we should go in that way. We might not for these reasons, but I understand. [00:28:41] And then people like, like, even with me, if I know that you've heard me out and then you choose to do something else, then it's much less, it hurts much less. It's like, okay, well. I tried, you know, but it's so bad when you make a decision and everyone's just [00:29:00] like, you didn't even talk to us. You didn't hear me out. [00:29:03] So, um, yeah, that's, that's a, it's, that's a really big deal. [00:29:07] Um, the other thing that I wanted to call out about your, what, about your story is you said, and this is so much better than a lot of companies do. You said, um, how, what's the ROI going to be. Can we do more campaigns? And can the impact of the campaigns be greater than it is today? [00:29:27] Like, that's really great because a lot of companies, what they'll do is they'll, they'll say like, they'll, they'll see a new tool at a conference and they'll just go, Oh, we should just use this. You know, it's, it's new. Or they'll see a competitor using a, uh, a, a, a Martech solution and they'll go like, Oh, they're using it. [00:29:44] We should too. And, and so many business decisions are made that way. When they really need to be asking, just like you got, you all did, like, what's the ROI, like what tangible, tangible improvement can we expect, uh, from, from this new platform that we're going to [00:30:00] implement? [00:30:00] Angela: Oh, yes. Yes. I think that that, you know, that's the only way I think that are. Large organizations that we can, we can stay alive, like, we need to prove that we are actually delivering value. And that's the way that we are looking at tools these days. It's only based on an ROI case. [00:30:20] ​[00:31:00] [00:32:00] [00:32:20] Phil: Yeah. [00:32:20] How 150 Stakeholders at Meta Actually Agreed on a Martech Stack --- [00:32:20] Phil: Curious to ask you about that vendor selection framework, Angela, you, you talked a bit about it at Dreamforce, uh, in, in your presentation, um, but maybe like elaborate on like how it was designed to ensure, like we just talked about, like all these voices are heard and we're still moving decisively forward. [00:32:39] Like what did that framework look like and how did it come to be? [00:32:43] Angela: So we had, um, yeah, so we had a clear timeline. We had, you know, You know, decision matrices based on specific framework. So we had, for example, what was important to us privacy. So all of the kind of sub questions around privacy that we needed to [00:33:00] address integration with. Are in product channels, so how each 1 would address, you know, many to many mapping solutions. [00:33:09] So we had a very detailed category. Then we had all the teams that needed to provide their scoring based on that. So we had, um. Specific check in, so it wasn't just a 1 time vote and be done. So 1st evaluation call for demos, more questions, 2nd evaluation. But again, the critical thing here is more about well, the questions that you bring in making sure that the different teams contribute to those questions so that they bring to the table. [00:33:38] What is important to them and then. Of course, the inclusion now having 1 person for each team represent the voting, because you need to limit, of course, a number of voices. So they would need to corral their teams and get their opinions. But we have 1 scoring per team and at the end of the day, whatever. [00:33:57] Um, you know, we tried to be as [00:34:00] objective as possible. Ultimately, that was how we came along a final decision. And until then, very end, you know, there was a lot of debate, but, um, it felt good. It felt good. And to be honest, it wasn't only the push that, hey, nobody looked back. To be honest, we've been so concentrated on delivery that, you know, You know, impossible is not possible. [00:34:25] We've got to make it happen. Um, and we, we're just looking ahead. [00:34:31] Darrell: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, um, so, so in this process, like, do you mind like taking, uh, uh, sharing who's involved and like, did you build your team? To support this migration or, or did you already, um, or did you, once you decided on, Hey, this is the path we're going to go. Did you go to your boss and say like, Hey, I need to build a team. [00:34:57] Um, like, can you share a little bit about like how, how your [00:35:00] team, uh, played into this and, or did you build your team later? [00:35:04] Angela: Yeah, so I think that there are a couple of ways of thinking about the team, right? It takes a village. So the way I would approach it is almost zoom out a little bit. So we had 1st, our sponsors. So identifying who the sponsors for this project were. Then we have stakeholders. Probably 150 stakeholders across their organizations. [00:35:27] Then we have the working team, um, who are the people and the teams that you actually need to get the work done. So that's data engineering, multiple engineering teams across the organization, vendors, data science, marketers, an implementation partner. I don't know what you guys think about that, but I think, you know, project of the scale, you know, Most of the time you need an implementation partner. [00:35:53] And then the Martek team itself, because, you know, at the end of the day, the Martek team is an enabler [00:36:00] of all of this. And so. That I had a team already, but the Martech team expansion came as part of the business case as well. Right? So, um, you know, given the opportunity that has been laid out, we've been able to to grow it and the way that I. Set up the team is kind of on 2 pillars. 1 is the product pillar. So part of the team that is really looking at this tool. So, um, CDP automation and not just tools, but also our data, our measurement and really having them focused on advancing those capabilities. And then the part of the team that is focused on delivery, which is. [00:36:43] Hey, here are the business use cases that we need to unlock, um, and bring the capabilities and XFNs to deliver on those use cases. So there's kind of two, two different muscles of the team, the very technical arm [00:37:00] and the very kind of business facing arm. And that has helped a lot because, um, I don't want to distract the team that is kind of building the product too much with all of the, uh, business requests. [00:37:11] And that's how we built. We've been very successful because part of what this, what this has allowed us to do is build a roadmap for execution that is very much tied to, hey, we build for the future, but we have some really interesting pilots and use cases that we're unlocking now that are able to give us the short term wins. [00:37:36] And this to me, I will evangelize this because it's a truly what I believe has worked is. The transformation seems like such a long thing that is painful and what saves you is give people a flavor of what this can give you. So we've selected a few high complexity use cases that I call them like shiny [00:38:00] objects that we partner with marketers on. [00:38:03] Like, tell me what is the most exciting thing that you would like to do? And then we bring all the resources to the table and okay, let's do it. How many channels do you want? Thank you. Let's work on the most advanced personalization. Let's get the data, the real time. Bring all the bells and whistles. We want the complexity to pressure test the platform, unlock scalable capabilities, get short wins, and then, You know, on the parallel track, everybody's like, working on, like, designing for scale, but this pilot allows wins that are visible and that can really help your ROI in year 1. [00:38:43] Otherwise, you never see ROI in year 1, unless you actually bring some of these things to the forefront. [00:38:52] Phil: Such a great idea. Such a good way to frame that. Like this is our roadmap. This is what we're building. It's like one year, three [00:39:00] years, five years in the making. But you're going to get to have your hands on something and like, we will deliver pieces of this. And here are some of the quick wins or the sign, the shiny objects, I think you called them just to get, not, not just like ROI before the end of the first year, but also like get more buying. [00:39:18] And like, people are more excited about it because there's actually things coming out as opposed to just like having to always get updates on the roadmap and the vision. And it always. Seems so long term and future facing. [00:39:30] Angela: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And yeah, this is something that. I did when I was at Citi and it just, yeah, it definitely pays off. Um, and I completely recommend it. [00:39:42] Darrell: Yeah. It's kind of like you're, you're telling a story. about, of, of, you know, like a success story that's like ongoing so that not only do people, um, are people appreciating the work that's being done, but they also stay motivated, you know? Cause like [00:40:00] it is a long project could be multi year, you know? So like, uh, if often for people, if there's a project they have, that takes like two years to do, they kind of like. [00:40:10] I'm just gonna not do anything because it's going to take too long anyway. Um, but one of the things like I wanted to ask you, cause I've like reflected upon this myself is, is, um, almost 50%. [00:40:21] TLDRs Can Save Your Calendar From Technical Quicksand --- [00:40:21] Darrell: And what I found is almost 50 percent of your time or more is actually focused on this people related activity, like internal, internal comms, um, Perception, storytelling, executive buy in, which is actually not really Martek. [00:40:39] So, and you know, sometimes I, I, I like, I look at my calendar and I'm just like, I've just been in meetings for forever. Like it was just been meetings after meeting after meeting. And next week is the same. Like, do you ever get frustrated about that? Or do you really enjoy it? Or like, or sometimes you wish like, Oh, I wish I wish we could just move faster. [00:40:59] [00:41:00] Right. How do you feel about that? [00:41:01] Angela: That's a great question because I really built my career by being in the depths of like solutioning and I enjoy that. I really do like to be, how are we going to integrate this and what, but I'm also. I really, I, I study journalism. I really like storytelling. And so I actually think one of the biggest challenges of Martech and I mean, I don't know about you guys, but how do you make it sexy for people that are like, you know, CMOs and, you know, Growth market. I think it's fun, but I realized that it's not fun for everybody. And how do you bring it to life for people? And it's become a personal challenge of mine is how do I tell this story in a way that makes sense to others? Okay, what is the headline here of this pilot? We are unlocking ability [00:42:00] to reach this audiences that we were never able to do so before. [00:42:03] And what does this mean? And rather than talk, we're building a CDP. I don't know about you guys, but. week, people ask me, what is a CDP? What does CDP stand for? So, I [00:42:16] Phil: no one [00:42:16] Angela: agree. Yeah, exactly. So, we get so much in our own world. That there, I think that I'm kind of embracing a bit. Hey, and, you know, for career growth as well in our space and for relevancy, we need to lean into those communications and that exact, um, buying and leadership and speak that language, which oftentimes it's like, okay, I need to, like, take this layer and layer and layer of complexity out and Here at MET everything is about like a TLDR and how do we craft like our TLDRs to be so succinct. [00:42:55] So, you know, sometimes it's painful, but [00:43:00] I would say, especially for those like growing their careers on Martech, don't forget, and I tell my team, like, tell me what you're going to do. Tell me about the progress that you're making and then tell me what you did and put it all in a bow. Because otherwise You know, to the rest of the organization, it's like, it never happened. [00:43:19] And I try to embrace that for myself as well. [00:43:23] Phil: Very cool. Yeah, I think your experience is fascinating with this whole project, not just like the internal comms piece and all the stakeholders. And like a lot of people like RNMarkTech and the joining company, the stack already exists. People like built a foundation for it and they're just like getting the keys to it. [00:43:41] And maybe they're adding a couple of things to it. You're lucky if you get to like migrate to something new and you get to like shop around from different tools, but you also had a different layer of doing that internal versus by decision. But you also had like a lot of different decisions about like the philosophy of [00:44:00] Architecting certain things like are we going composable? [00:44:03] Do we go in in house like package solution? Like there's a lot of different decisions along the way that you got to do at a massive enterprise that a lot of folks don't really get a chance to do. And, um, but [00:44:16] How Meta Streamlines Marketing Asset Creation at Scale Using Knak --- [00:44:16] Phil: I did want to ask you one question about like the. The, the architecting decision, or maybe like a process decision there. [00:44:23] Um, uh, Knak is a sponsor of the show. Meta is a customer and you know, there's a lot of teams that have in house developers that handle a lot of the email development. It's a tedious process, but like when you have a big team that does it, a lot of folks like, like that route, you end up. Turning into like a bit of a service center, but talk to us about how Meta is using Knak to decentralize the campaign creation process for the what, like hundred plus marketers at Meta that need email and landing pages. [00:44:52] But you get to still implement the brand guardrails and make sure everything kind of looks good. Um, just a plug for Knak there, if you, if you [00:45:00] don't mind. [00:45:01] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. So we've been talking about that kind of this core infrastructure, but the reality is that you, you need several other tools to integrate. And so we. We have been using Knak, um, on part of the business. Um, and so what the big thing was, okay, now we need to scale it, um, to use it across all of our stack. [00:45:23] So it was almost like a transition, a migration, a rethinking of, oh, okay, let's adopt this tool that we've been using forever. But. In a new, more scaled form, and it's been, it's become so central to our operations, because not only have we been able to reduce handoffs considerably, because, you know, you have multiple teams that are passing on content asks and in Google Sheets and other ways. [00:45:49] Now, centralize the way that. You're building the content, you're checking it, you're editing, you're aligning it, you're translating it. So, you know, the integrations [00:46:00] with translations, it's also key. Um, so it basically makes it like the center point of interaction for building content, as opposed to the handoff of multiple documents. [00:46:11] And, um, it has driven important efficiencies for us. We're working through multiple optimizations, but I think It is a central part because the other part is, you know, when you bring a tool that it's so complex, like Salesforce in some way, like, it has so many powers and capabilities, but you can't do um, script for everything. [00:46:37] Right? I think that you, you really need help to. Bring more user friendly plugins that help marketers and operations team to do their work more easily. So that has been key in helping us that we brought so many other aspects of integrations. Like, we've integrated a movable link with Knak, [00:47:00] experimentation capabilities with Knak. [00:47:01] So this is about the superpowers that we talked about at the beginning. Not only just not building or buying because you need to do both and do hybrid, but also you need to build your recipe of tools and solutions and what you layer and what feel like creating a big paella then adding all the spices and things to to bring your, your final product. I think that Knak has played a big role there for us in that sense. [00:47:33] Darrell: Yeah, I, I, yeah, marketing operations doesn't get enough credit and like the tools that support marketing operations. And I'm a big, just champion of, of the marketing operations, um, um, role. And I think that when work gets done easier, better, and more seamless, it is the, the, there's so many benefits. Like, like. [00:47:59] [00:48:00] Efficiency is one, but like quality of life, people get time back. Um, they get out of the weeds and then they also like. Can, can start to become more strategic because they're not spending the time with all these manual things or like tagging people and Google sheets and stuff like that. Like there's, there's, there's much less room for error. [00:48:20] And, um, um, it, it, it more companies need to invest in like really good operations. And I, uh, I thought of this funny example of like, cause I'm a new dad. And my, my baby's like four months old now. But when I was first changing the diaper, I didn't really have a station, you know, so I'm just like grabbing the baby wipes and searching for a diaper and the trash can is not even close. [00:48:44] So like, after I'm wiping, I'm just like throwing it everywhere. You know what I mean? And then, and then, but, but, um, my wife put together this wonderful diaper changing station. And it's like, everything's right there, you know, you have the, the trash can that the, the, the wipes, the, [00:49:00] the Vaseline and like, now I'm just like a machine. [00:49:02] It's like, you know, and, and that to me is like the equivalent of like the parenting equivalent of like operations, like your life really does get better. And there's like a lot more calm. Um, so I appreciate, you know, tools like Knak, but also just companies that That take the time to invest in operations. [00:49:19] Like it's not an afterthought. It's, it should be a core part of Martech [00:49:24] Angela: yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And you got to build your right mix of those tools to make it work. I mean, it's hard as you start like plugging it all together, but once you get it running, once you have your diaper station, you're ready to go. Yes. [00:49:47] Darrell: it's very top of [00:49:48] Phil: gonna make for perfect, uh, header image for, for that section there, uh, Daryl's Diaper Battle Station. [00:49:55] Darrell: yeah, yeah, it totally is. I have like another question, [00:50:00] Phil, but did you want to ask a question first? [00:50:01] Phil: Um, I was just gonna ask you Angela, on like the, We're, we're kind of getting close on time. And [00:50:06] Marketing Tools Live and Die By Your Data Architecture --- [00:50:06] Phil: I was curious to get your take on like, if you had to just start this journey again from scratch, knowing what you know today, like your first day at Meta, you're handed this keys to like build an internal tool, you're excited about this blank canvas. [00:50:20] Like, what do you do differently about like taking that journey again from scratch? [00:50:27] Angela: I think that the big, big thing It is tripling down on the data, the data pieces, I think, from multiple aspects from 1. It's up your internal data, really becoming so familiar with that structure. I feel like we did it. You know, in parallel, I wish if you have the benefit of time, [00:51:00] and if you are not really facing the whole Martech transformation, they work on the data. [00:51:05] The data is what's going to enable everything. No matter what shiny tool you bring on board, if you don't have that set up, um, that goes, you know, both for, like, your audiences, your consent data, you know, every, you know, getting it. Data connectivity with cells, and then also for your measurement and how those two things. [00:51:26] So I think that's where, you know, to be honest, we, we face challenges. And I, if I had to go back, I would definitely triple down on on investing more time and resources on that as opposed to, hey, is the data ready? Give it to me. Like, we really have to be thoughtful around our data architecture design and think about that. [00:51:46] That's. Based more, um, definitely, you know, more thoughtfully and strategically. [00:51:56] Darrell: Yeah. People just don't get that. Like it, it. Like really all of [00:52:00] the great, you know, sexy and engaging things that we, that we want to do as marketers and as, as, you know, go to market professionals, all, it's all predicated on data. Like everything is. And, um, but, but, you know, and I really respect executives that understand that because a lot of people, a lot of executives will say, well, why can't we do these things already? [00:52:25] And it's because, you know, and it's kind of like, uh, why don't we have like an amazing, like in our backyard, why don't we have amazing trees, you know, that are like really huge and you can build tree houses. And it's just like, those things take time to plant and like the roots need to grow. And data is the same, the same way. [00:52:43] Like everyone wants the, the amazing Martech capabilities in real time personalization, you know, and, and now with AI too, like they want that too. You know, but if they don't have the data, like you're, you're really like building on sand. It's just, it, it looks [00:53:00] nice, but it's not real. Um, so I, I [00:53:02] Angela: it starts, yeah, and it starts with the data ingestion, like how structure, how you structure the way that you ingest data when somebody feels out of form. Sometimes the biggest problem that we face downstream is that, hey, because you didn't capture that in the form, because you didn't make that field obligatory. [00:53:21] So it's things that are really easy if you address them right. On the front end and then become such blockers down the road. Um, so, yeah, that's the only thing that I would do differently for the next challenge [00:53:34] Martech Leaders Will Outgrow Their Technical Roots --- [00:53:34] Darrell: Let's talk about like Martech career for a little bit. And I wondered what, how you see like the profession growing. I think Martech. Professionals are such an interesting space because, you know, we're, we're typically not engineers, though. [00:53:48] We're very technical, but you know, I don't know if, if, if, if many Martech professionals aspire to lead like a group of engineers as their career. And, and we're not [00:54:00] exactly like, um, business. Like strictly business leaders, like finance leaders. We're not like really finance leaders, but we have that, that chops, you know? [00:54:09] So I wanted, I wanted to know like what you think most Martech professionals aspire to like long term. Um, like, do you, do you see yourself like actually changing, um, or, or, or like just evolving as, as Martech grows? Like what, what does the future you think look like for you? And then also for like others, others in this job. [00:54:29] Angela: in this. Yeah. Yes. Like, what is the ceiling ultimately for Martech? Right? Because there's, of course, a lot of companies are going to do transformation. So Martech is playing a key role right now. But look, at the end of the day, the way that I. I think about my role and kind of landed on marketing on Martech because I was doing product development and marketing innovation. [00:54:53] But at the end of the way is we have business problems, marketing problems. And [00:55:00] technology is one of the biggest arms to solve those, and that problem is always going to exist. We have, you know, evolved the way that we do marketing and now with AI, we will continue to do so even more. So this arm of the equation is always going to exist. [00:55:20] And, you know, that's a challenge even that I faced in positioning my team. It's like, we're not just here for the transformation. We're here. To enable marketing to do its thing. It's a relay game. What do you, what is your vision? Let us kind of deliver that from a technology perspective for you guys. And, um, I think that there's an ongoing space for that now. [00:55:42] We got to push to be more strategic. We got to push to think about, like, not just the technology itself, but exactly what is it that we are enabling and how we can do it better? How can we become consultants for the business on what is possible? And I think that's when our role [00:56:00] really levels up at a more strategic level and plays a bigger role. [00:56:05] Seat at the table. So I think there's a lot of promise here. And look, there's promise because Martek builds really strong professionals that to your point, you know, highly technical, but business savvy, and that goes a long way in a lot of other areas. So I always tell my team, like, you can become a product manager. [00:56:26] You can become a girl. Like, there's so much that you can do with this space. I have people that come from the marketing side. To Martek, because they love solutioning. So I think there's definitely an ongoing space for Martek. [00:56:43] Phil: Love it. Such a great answer. Um, we talk a lot about that, like, uh, in the episode that just dropped today, um, was with a bunch of product marketers and it was fun. Cause like, I got to ask them like, what do you think about marketing operations and Martech folks? Like, are we kind of like marketers? Are we different than [00:57:00] marketers? [00:57:00] And like all three of them were just like, No, you guys aren't marketers. Like you, you think way too much about data and like, you're way too technical to be like a marketer. Like, and then one of the guys is just like, you guys are like data wizards. Like you guys are wizards. Every time I work with a Martech person, I'm just like, how did you do that? [00:57:18] Like, how, how did you come up with that? And so, yeah, I really empathize that. Like the dual nature of technical, practical savviness, but I think we're also still like creative and we've got that, that business background, but yeah. Love your answer. Angela, this has been a super fun conversation. You took this through, um, the transformation of, of legacy to this crazy stack that you've transformed at, at Meta really appreciate your time. [00:57:43] Building Tech Leadership Career Without Sacrificing Family Life --- [00:57:43] Phil: I've got one last question for you. You're a technical marketing leader, transformation expert, conference speaker, but you're also a mom of three. Two toddlers keeping you very busy these days. Uh, you're also a home designer, aficionado. Like one question we ask everyone on the show is how do you remain happy and successful in your career [00:58:00] and how do you find balance between all this stuff you're working on while staying happy? [00:58:06] Angela: Wow, that's deep. Um, look, I will say at work, gosh, there, I really pump myself up when I'm driving to work, like, ah, um, But one of the things that give me happiness are just my solution in conversations with people. I get joy when I get on a call and I just build on someone's ideas. They build on mine and we laugh a little bit. [00:58:33] So there's a combination of solutioning of positive relationships that really, really drives me at work. The second thing is. I actually really, I do love what I do. So that brings me happiness for sure. Um, but I turn my computer off and I just go to my, my two little ones in the caves that I have at home, and [00:59:00] It also is like a motivation for me because I want my, my daughter and my son to feel like, proud of me. [00:59:07] And I, I think that combination of those things, like, the reward, the intrinsic reward that I get from my job, the relationships that I have with people. And then when I turn that off. The kind of connection that I see with, hey, doing this work because it, you know, it also feeds my family in some ways, but it also provides an example for the work ethic and the motivation that I want my children to have. [00:59:32] That's what's important for me. [00:59:36] Phil: Awesome. Love that answer. Really appreciate you sharing. We're, we're both, uh, new dads, Daryl and I, and, uh, yeah, it definitely relate to turning off that laptop. Uh, I'd like to do that earlier, um, than, than I am doing today, but it is really fun to be able to, you know, you're proud of them, like seeing them grow up and stuff like that, but like soon, like when they grew up a little bit, you get that, that double sided of that too, [01:00:00] like you want them to be proud of you and build that like role model, like you can't shut work off. [01:00:06] Angela: exactly. My four year old says I work in internet. Um, whatever that means. Yes. But thank you guys. Oh, [01:00:18] Darrell: well, I was just going to say, uh, my baby started teething, [01:00:22] Phil: Oh, nice. [01:00:23] Angela: gosh, [01:00:24] that's So we, we were, we were doing so well with the sleep and then now. It's like a regression and like, we're just dying, but I, I also like, I, I've, I've been, so tonight, last night I was up multiple times, like shushing the baby cause he's, I guess he's in pain. [01:00:43] Darrell: And, um, I started to take a different angle, like, like at first I was like, we need to do all these things so that he'll sleep. You know, like, like routine, routine, routine. Now I think that like, and I forgot where I heard this, but I started to look at it as, [01:01:00] you know, I'm not going to get to like shush this baby forever, you know, like, like shush him back to sleep. [01:01:06] He's not going to be a four month old forever and like, you know, like even, even if this lasts for a few weeks or whatever like that, it's going to be the last time, like, you know what I mean? Unless we have another baby. But, um, so I, so I felt that brought me comfort while I was shushing the baby. Like, you know, it's okay. [01:01:23] Angela: Enjoy. Exactly, because then you're going to miss that. Yes, for sure. Yes. [01:01:29] Darrell: running around. [01:01:32] Angela: Oh, gosh, but yeah, this are, this are the things with, you know, having this sort of jobs that require like such focus and then having to switch off. But anyway, I really enjoyed this conversation and I hope that we can continue because you guys are such sources of wisdom, collecting all of this interesting people on the show. [01:01:53] So I really look forward to, to continuing this relationship. [01:01:57] Phil: Yeah, definitely. Really appreciate your time, [01:02:00] Angela. This is a super fun conversation. We're honestly honored to have you on the show. Thanks so much for your time. [01:02:06] Angela: you. Have a great time. And I look forward to, to all of your episodes. [01:02:11] Phil: you. Thank you so much.