WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:02.999 Hywel: Hello everybody, I'm your host Howell Curtis, and I'd like to 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:07.040 welcome you to The Space Industry by Satsurge, where we share stories about 00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:08.949 the companies taking us into orbit. 00:00:09.899 --> 00:00:13.009 In this podcast, we delve into the opinions and expertise of the 00:00:13.009 --> 00:00:16.249 people behind the commercial space organizations of today who could 00:00:16.249 --> 00:00:18.189 become the household names of tomorrow. 00:00:19.110 --> 00:00:21.889 Before we get started with the episode, remember you can find out 00:00:21.899 --> 00:00:25.409 more information about the suppliers, products and innovations that are 00:00:25.409 --> 00:00:30.000 mentioned in this discussion on the global marketplace for the space at satsurge. 00:00:30.050 --> 00:00:30.330 com. 00:00:31.535 --> 00:00:33.915 Hello there and welcome to today's episode of the Space 00:00:33.915 --> 00:00:35.465 Industry Podcast by SatSearch. 00:00:36.045 --> 00:00:39.405 I'm joined today by some returning guests on the podcast, Michael Seidel 00:00:39.434 --> 00:00:44.184 and Adrian Helvig from Global Electronics Manufacturer and a SatSearch trusted 00:00:44.184 --> 00:00:48.855 supplier, Texas Instruments, a name you're, you must be familiar with if 00:00:48.855 --> 00:00:52.794 you've listened to this podcast, but also if you're anything to do with the 00:00:52.794 --> 00:00:56.355 space industry or a wide range of other industries where Texas Instruments or 00:00:56.365 --> 00:00:58.565 TI as it's commonly known operates. 00:00:58.945 --> 00:00:59.974 It's great to have you both. 00:01:00.245 --> 00:01:04.415 Back on the show, really really interested to hear more about the the work that 00:01:04.455 --> 00:01:06.435 tech, that TI is doing in space. 00:01:06.435 --> 00:01:11.045 There's always a lot of information presented by the company about the 00:01:11.045 --> 00:01:15.475 different applications and components and and how they can be used to 00:01:15.475 --> 00:01:17.875 improve missions that TI shares. 00:01:17.925 --> 00:01:18.315 So this is great. 00:01:18.325 --> 00:01:23.655 Now today we're going to be talking phased array antennas and how they can improve 00:01:24.225 --> 00:01:29.085 both performance and flexibility, which is, or versatility, which is increasingly 00:01:29.085 --> 00:01:33.625 important in modern space missions, as we're seeing teams professionalizing and 00:01:33.625 --> 00:01:38.925 services, trying to try to get more value and do more with the equipment and the 00:01:38.955 --> 00:01:41.375 resources and the people that they have. 00:01:41.655 --> 00:01:43.735 Yeah, I'm really excited to get into this topic today. 00:01:43.765 --> 00:01:48.435 Now, we'll start by setting the scene a little bit, many people in 00:01:48.565 --> 00:01:52.935 the space industry are increasingly aware of how congested the RF 00:01:52.935 --> 00:01:54.935 spectrum has become and is becoming. 00:01:55.355 --> 00:01:58.155 And there's a few different reasons for this. 00:01:58.155 --> 00:02:02.220 I wondered if Adrian potentially could, explain why this problem has 00:02:02.220 --> 00:02:06.940 come about and what RF engineers are doing or can do to mitigate it. 00:02:07.610 --> 00:02:08.160 Adrien: Yes, sure. 00:02:08.290 --> 00:02:09.340 Welcome everybody. 00:02:09.400 --> 00:02:09.680 Yeah. 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:12.030 So I will be happy to answer that one. 00:02:12.690 --> 00:02:17.579 So the RF spectrum has become very crowded for several reasons, really. 00:02:17.999 --> 00:02:23.289 And the fact is we need to, More data and faster speeds, right? 00:02:23.339 --> 00:02:27.109 So the demand for available spectrum simply has increased. 00:02:27.639 --> 00:02:32.549 In addition to that, there are also many new application in services. 00:02:32.599 --> 00:02:38.849 Like for example, phone services, internet services, or air observation satellites, 00:02:38.859 --> 00:02:45.479 like weather satellites, for example, defense communication, those applications. 00:02:45.734 --> 00:02:47.894 I using up more of the spectrum. 00:02:48.944 --> 00:02:53.754 And let me also add one additional point here about the low earth orbit 00:02:53.794 --> 00:03:00.114 satellites, because on the one hand, you can think those are offering more 00:03:00.124 --> 00:03:05.654 data transmission opportunities for your system, but at the same time they are 00:03:05.654 --> 00:03:08.654 also creating another problem, right? 00:03:08.654 --> 00:03:11.624 Because those satellites are moving very quickly. 00:03:11.729 --> 00:03:12.849 Relative to ground. 00:03:13.169 --> 00:03:17.619 And this makes really hard to maintain the stable communication link. 00:03:18.389 --> 00:03:18.679 Yeah. 00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:23.659 And now to deal with all those issues, engineers, developers, 00:03:23.669 --> 00:03:26.049 they are developing new solutions. 00:03:26.339 --> 00:03:30.459 And to be very honest with you, the one of most promising is the 00:03:30.459 --> 00:03:32.229 use of phased array antennas. 00:03:32.259 --> 00:03:38.739 So actually our topic today, and this antennas can direct the 00:03:38.739 --> 00:03:40.419 communication beam electronically. 00:03:41.284 --> 00:03:44.284 without needing mechanical parts to move. 00:03:44.684 --> 00:03:48.694 And this allows really for better use of available spectrum 00:03:49.134 --> 00:03:53.594 by sending multiple signals at different angles and frequencies. 00:03:54.444 --> 00:03:59.924 And at the same time, this technology helps also to reduce the interference 00:04:00.734 --> 00:04:04.074 and improves overall system efficiency. 00:04:04.084 --> 00:04:06.904 And In using the RF spectrum. 00:04:07.684 --> 00:04:13.654 So in summary, by using the phased array antennas, the space industry can 00:04:13.654 --> 00:04:20.294 really benefit and handle the anyway, very crowded RF spectrum much better. 00:04:21.104 --> 00:04:21.444 Okay. 00:04:21.444 --> 00:04:21.954 Hywel: Fantastic. 00:04:21.954 --> 00:04:22.134 Yeah. 00:04:22.134 --> 00:04:25.814 It makes sense as we've seen the industry scale in that these, there's 00:04:25.814 --> 00:04:30.274 some very valuable areas of the spectrum are under increasing demand, but yeah, 00:04:30.324 --> 00:04:32.874 when you explain issues like the. 00:04:33.079 --> 00:04:37.469 Leo satellites there, though, the how hard it is to maintain 00:04:37.469 --> 00:04:38.859 those stable communication links. 00:04:38.859 --> 00:04:41.199 I think that really puts this issue into perspective. 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:44.929 And as you say, the phased array antenna technology is seen as a 00:04:44.929 --> 00:04:46.809 really promising solution for this. 00:04:46.849 --> 00:04:49.729 As I mentioned in the intro to the show let's Get into more 00:04:49.729 --> 00:04:51.119 detail on this technology. 00:04:51.129 --> 00:04:57.039 Now, as far as I understand, phaser antennas bring two big benefits. 00:04:57.049 --> 00:05:01.729 The increased versatility because of, as you mentioned, the digital beam 00:05:01.729 --> 00:05:03.829 forming or the electronic steering. 00:05:04.519 --> 00:05:08.979 And that I believe they can enable greater bandwidth because they 00:05:08.979 --> 00:05:10.389 can operate with narrower beams. 00:05:10.869 --> 00:05:15.249 So I wonder if we could discuss this first point and, please correct my inaccuracies 00:05:15.249 --> 00:05:18.809 if they are there, but yeah, I wondered if Michael, if you could explain what 00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:23.659 digital beamforming is and what benefits it can bring to space applications. 00:05:24.314 --> 00:05:27.094 Michael: Yes, I'm very happy to attend. 00:05:27.104 --> 00:05:32.034 This is definitely not trivial to understand, but let me give it a try. 00:05:32.654 --> 00:05:36.574 Imagine you have several antennas, not only one antenna, but you have 00:05:36.574 --> 00:05:41.094 several antennas next to each other, and you really put them equally spaced. 00:05:41.864 --> 00:05:42.174 One. 00:05:42.689 --> 00:05:44.209 next to the other, right? 00:05:44.209 --> 00:05:46.079 And they form an array of antenna. 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:50.519 That's either a linear array in only one dimension, but they're next to 00:05:50.519 --> 00:05:55.099 each other, or you put them in a rectangular format and have them in two 00:05:55.099 --> 00:05:57.179 dimensions spaced next to each other. 00:05:57.179 --> 00:06:01.139 But you have multiple antennas and all these antennas, they 00:06:01.139 --> 00:06:03.289 send the very same signal, right? 00:06:03.389 --> 00:06:09.369 They just add up, they accumulate and form altogether a, now a a radiation 00:06:09.369 --> 00:06:14.499 characteristic with a single beam but a more focused beam than if 00:06:14.499 --> 00:06:16.249 you have only a single element. 00:06:16.299 --> 00:06:20.849 So that's the first thing we have to put there to get a more narrow, more focused 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:27.219 beam, because you're accumulating the characteristics of multiple antennas. 00:06:27.829 --> 00:06:28.239 together. 00:06:28.559 --> 00:06:32.279 And the second one, and that's actually a pretty interesting even 00:06:32.279 --> 00:06:34.049 fascinating fact happening there. 00:06:34.369 --> 00:06:39.739 What people do now is they put a delay where you're saying all antenna 00:06:39.739 --> 00:06:41.579 elements send the same signal. 00:06:41.899 --> 00:06:45.899 They do send the same signal, but each one a little bit later than the other one. 00:06:45.909 --> 00:06:50.569 So you put this constant delay on each one of those next to each other. 00:06:50.909 --> 00:06:53.479 And then the interesting thing, what happens then is 00:06:53.479 --> 00:06:55.739 then the angle of radiation. 00:06:56.389 --> 00:07:01.029 It changes its direction, like the very front is moving in 00:07:01.029 --> 00:07:02.219 a different direction then. 00:07:02.789 --> 00:07:08.579 And really controllable by the delay you apply to each of these elements. 00:07:08.939 --> 00:07:13.889 And that makes now this antenna steered purely based on electronics. 00:07:13.899 --> 00:07:16.069 So no mechanics involved. 00:07:16.419 --> 00:07:19.569 And that is of course a big benefit that if you don't have to send 00:07:19.909 --> 00:07:23.929 many mechanics to space, that is of course a major advantage. 00:07:25.399 --> 00:07:26.859 And now the. 00:07:27.084 --> 00:07:35.224 The next level of interest is like you have, you can have this steering 00:07:35.294 --> 00:07:37.974 of the beam you're radiating. 00:07:38.874 --> 00:07:41.524 You can differentiate between frequencies. 00:07:41.524 --> 00:07:47.014 So you have one carrier frequency getting one set of delays and 00:07:47.014 --> 00:07:50.404 the other carrier frequency getting a different set of delays. 00:07:51.094 --> 00:07:54.744 And with that, you have now two beams of different frequency 00:07:56.064 --> 00:07:58.474 pointing at different locations. 00:07:58.989 --> 00:08:03.839 And this is where you can now put groups on ground, user groups on ground together 00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:09.119 and give this one group one carrier frequency in one direction and the 00:08:09.119 --> 00:08:10.629 other group another carrier frequency. 00:08:10.629 --> 00:08:14.729 And this is how you divide up the spectrum very effectively and with 00:08:14.729 --> 00:08:18.919 a very focused theme where you accomplished on the best signal to noise. 00:08:19.309 --> 00:08:20.979 ratio on these user groups. 00:08:21.259 --> 00:08:21.879 Hywel: Really interesting. 00:08:21.879 --> 00:08:26.869 So it's almost as if you're operating with two different antennas physically 00:08:26.869 --> 00:08:29.539 pointing in two different directions, but you aren't, you're using the same 00:08:29.539 --> 00:08:33.079 one that's electronically pointing the beam in different directions. 00:08:33.579 --> 00:08:34.089 Interesting. 00:08:34.139 --> 00:08:39.195 And then What about the achieving the increased data rate by 00:08:39.195 --> 00:08:41.095 operating with narrow beams? 00:08:41.145 --> 00:08:42.995 How does this aspect of things work? 00:08:44.775 --> 00:08:47.725 Adrien: Yeah, so that, that's really another aspect of using 00:08:47.755 --> 00:08:49.745 those phased array antennas. 00:08:50.135 --> 00:08:51.325 Let me try to explain. 00:08:51.325 --> 00:08:57.445 Achieving those increased data rates by operating with narrow beams, Works 00:08:57.455 --> 00:09:04.195 because this better focused antenna beams ensure that the transmitted signal arrives 00:09:04.235 --> 00:09:06.235 at the receiver with greater strength. 00:09:07.295 --> 00:09:10.785 And when the signal is stronger, it improves so called 00:09:10.785 --> 00:09:12.625 signal to noise ratio, right? 00:09:12.965 --> 00:09:19.015 And this means there is less interference and the received signal is clearer. 00:09:19.815 --> 00:09:23.975 And this clearer signal allows simply for higher data throughput. 00:09:24.900 --> 00:09:28.620 As more information can be transmitted accurately and efficiently. 00:09:29.400 --> 00:09:35.190 So thinking about this, those narrow beams are really essential in, in boosting data 00:09:35.190 --> 00:09:40.050 rates and and making the communication link more reliable and robust. 00:09:40.545 --> 00:09:41.505 Hywel: I see. 00:09:41.515 --> 00:09:42.195 That makes sense. 00:09:44.165 --> 00:09:44.505 Okay. 00:09:44.505 --> 00:09:44.795 Okay. 00:09:44.795 --> 00:09:45.295 Yeah, got it. 00:09:45.625 --> 00:09:51.265 So we have these, we have this technology, the phased array antenna technology. 00:09:51.265 --> 00:09:58.619 It provides these certain benefits around increasing the data rate and so on. 00:09:59.880 --> 00:10:03.110 We mentioned that the RF spectrum is, Gary, particularly crowded. 00:10:03.110 --> 00:10:06.810 Therefore, this kind of technology is needed, but to bring it to home, 00:10:06.820 --> 00:10:10.540 to the so that space engineers and mission designers really understand 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:12.970 what value this technology brings. 00:10:13.190 --> 00:10:15.330 I wonder if you could give some examples of. 00:10:15.555 --> 00:10:19.905 different space applications and services that would benefit the most from 00:10:19.975 --> 00:10:24.015 using phased array antenna technology and why that would be the case. 00:10:24.535 --> 00:10:24.945 Adrien: Yeah. 00:10:24.995 --> 00:10:25.265 Yeah. 00:10:25.265 --> 00:10:28.865 So there are really many and I can try to list some of them. 00:10:29.205 --> 00:10:34.365 In general, phased array antennas would really greatly benefit in would greatly 00:10:34.385 --> 00:10:40.675 benefit any space application that relies on high data transmission, right? 00:10:41.025 --> 00:10:45.105 So the best example here is telecommunication services. 00:10:45.405 --> 00:10:45.875 Why? 00:10:45.995 --> 00:10:48.860 Yeah, because they need high data rates. 00:10:49.160 --> 00:10:53.210 Another example could be rather imaging applications. 00:10:53.250 --> 00:10:58.650 Those application would also benefit from this because they need very strong 00:10:58.660 --> 00:11:01.190 focused beams for accurate imaging. 00:11:02.670 --> 00:11:05.580 And there is also another aspect I wanted to talk here. 00:11:05.920 --> 00:11:12.030 Those more focused beams helps also to reduce the transmit power, right? 00:11:12.330 --> 00:11:15.720 And this makes the whole system much more efficient. 00:11:16.860 --> 00:11:20.230 And now in the beginning, we were talking about the challenges of low 00:11:20.430 --> 00:11:24.890 earth orbit satellites and their rapid movement relative to ground. 00:11:25.430 --> 00:11:30.825 So now with the phased array antennas, They can quickly adjust 00:11:30.835 --> 00:11:35.785 to compensate for those rapid movements and this ensure again the 00:11:35.785 --> 00:11:37.835 reliable communication link, right? 00:11:38.735 --> 00:11:45.075 So overall, those phased array antennas improve your performance, your efficiency 00:11:45.105 --> 00:11:49.795 and reliability across really a wide range of space application and services. 00:11:49.925 --> 00:11:50.365 Hywel: Okay. 00:11:50.755 --> 00:11:51.395 Makes sense. 00:11:52.265 --> 00:11:53.025 But of course. 00:11:53.730 --> 00:11:58.860 We always try and address this when we talk about space engineering, missions 00:11:58.870 --> 00:12:00.690 in space are all about compromising. 00:12:00.740 --> 00:12:03.360 You mentioned, as you mentioned earlier, the, we can't send 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:05.360 mechanics into space to fix things. 00:12:05.410 --> 00:12:09.750 There are unique limitations placed upon any technology. 00:12:09.930 --> 00:12:12.550 because of the extremes of the operating environment. 00:12:13.230 --> 00:12:18.250 So my next question is, how is the swap C budget of a mission affected 00:12:18.260 --> 00:12:20.110 by using phase array antennas? 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:24.560 And what can engineers do to deal with the, I would guess, 00:12:24.560 --> 00:12:28.120 inevitable trade offs that would occur by using these technologies? 00:12:29.180 --> 00:12:29.480 Michael: Yeah. 00:12:29.910 --> 00:12:30.080 Yeah. 00:12:30.080 --> 00:12:34.190 I think first off, I think you suspected already looking at the number of 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:39.225 elements, the, Amount of electronics and the cost and the power budget and 00:12:39.235 --> 00:12:40.865 the size and the weight all goes up. 00:12:40.865 --> 00:12:46.555 So your swap or the size, weight and power and cost budget is that the first plan 00:12:47.305 --> 00:12:52.575 compromised, but what you get in return is, of course, the amount of data rates 00:12:52.855 --> 00:12:54.775 and the amount of data rate per user. 00:12:55.050 --> 00:12:57.630 You accomplish with it, and that really matters, right? 00:12:57.630 --> 00:13:00.930 And this is where the ratio improves a lot, right? 00:13:00.930 --> 00:13:05.050 So it's absolutely worthwhile going there in this direction 00:13:05.080 --> 00:13:06.860 by increasing the data rate. 00:13:07.430 --> 00:13:08.680 And we said it before, right? 00:13:08.800 --> 00:13:12.009 No need for mechanical steering is, of course, also very important. 00:13:12.180 --> 00:13:15.330 Good benefit, important benefit, and it's super fast, right? 00:13:15.390 --> 00:13:20.020 As we move over ground very fast that is where these electronically steered 00:13:20.090 --> 00:13:24.360 antennas help us very much with the big challenge that is probably 00:13:24.410 --> 00:13:25.980 will always be around with us. 00:13:25.980 --> 00:13:28.870 We put a lot of electronics in a very dense area. 00:13:29.460 --> 00:13:32.660 And that is where the challenge is. 00:13:33.590 --> 00:13:37.900 And of course, the amount of electronics and the complexity increases the cost. 00:13:37.900 --> 00:13:41.460 But this is where the good news is that meanwhile, the electronics 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:45.810 industry and semiconductor industry has come up with solutions that 00:13:45.810 --> 00:13:48.540 really make it now possible to come. 00:13:49.790 --> 00:13:53.770 at reasonable heat development and reasonable cost, so we can really 00:13:53.800 --> 00:13:57.220 enable these phased array antennas now also for satellite missions. 00:13:57.480 --> 00:13:58.050 Hywel: Fantastic. 00:13:58.050 --> 00:13:58.200 Yeah. 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:01.640 Thanks for addressing those the balance that needs to be struck. 00:14:01.650 --> 00:14:06.130 The heat generation is one thing, but as we're seeing Something 00:14:06.130 --> 00:14:09.580 of a trend towards larger form factor systems in the industry. 00:14:09.640 --> 00:14:13.100 This is partially mitigated because obviously larger systems are able 00:14:13.100 --> 00:14:16.460 to deal with heat generation, waste heat in different ways. 00:14:16.970 --> 00:14:21.390 And also then you can cope with more complex engineering, sometimes 00:14:21.390 --> 00:14:22.730 more easily in a larger system. 00:14:23.160 --> 00:14:26.830 Excuse me, but yeah, the balance that needs to be struck in terms of 00:14:26.890 --> 00:14:28.680 increasing the SWOT budget is key. 00:14:28.680 --> 00:14:30.870 And I, as you highlighted, Michael, the. 00:14:31.795 --> 00:14:36.845 the aim is to get a great balance of cost for performance, not absolute cost. 00:14:36.855 --> 00:14:42.045 So yeah, if you're, if the cost at which you're developing data creating, 00:14:42.054 --> 00:14:46.915 generating data, sorry, is lower, and the data quality is higher based on the same 00:14:46.925 --> 00:14:48.305 unit, then you're in a good position. 00:14:48.315 --> 00:14:52.195 But you also highlighted the complexity involved in the engineering here. 00:14:52.745 --> 00:14:57.575 As a provider of these sort of systems, how does Texas Instruments help engineers 00:14:57.575 --> 00:15:01.965 or how can you help engineers to deal with this complexity and incorporate 00:15:02.565 --> 00:15:06.385 phased array antennas into designs and development of space missions? 00:15:06.845 --> 00:15:11.465 Adrien: Yeah, so we are really offering a wide range of solutions 00:15:11.465 --> 00:15:16.005 here to help engineers to, to use this technology in their designs. 00:15:16.515 --> 00:15:18.395 Let me talk about some of them. 00:15:18.635 --> 00:15:25.295 Obviously we need to start with high speed ADCs, DACs and analog frontends, right? 00:15:25.635 --> 00:15:31.174 And TI is offering really advanced ADCs and DACs with high data rates and 00:15:31.184 --> 00:15:36.044 wide bandwidths at the same time with lower power consumption, lower noise. 00:15:37.264 --> 00:15:42.084 You need those data converters for capturing and transmitting. 00:15:42.729 --> 00:15:45.759 And to be honest, sometimes even for processing the high 00:15:45.769 --> 00:15:47.379 frequency signals accurately. 00:15:47.979 --> 00:15:54.779 And I'm thinking here about devices like the ADC12DJ5200 SP for receiving a 00:15:54.819 --> 00:16:01.539 part, but also on the transmit part, for example, the DAC39RF10 SP can be used. 00:16:02.719 --> 00:16:07.299 Now, if the customers prefer more integrated solution. 00:16:07.674 --> 00:16:10.574 We can also offer so called analog front ends. 00:16:10.614 --> 00:16:16.014 Those products simply integrate several of those ADCs and DACs into one device. 00:16:16.874 --> 00:16:22.494 And I'm thinking here especially about the recently released AFE7950 SP. 00:16:22.994 --> 00:16:27.534 Which is our direct sampling analog front end, which supports 00:16:27.544 --> 00:16:29.094 frequencies up to X band. 00:16:30.794 --> 00:16:35.424 Now, if you talk about ADCs and DACs, obviously you also need to consider 00:16:35.454 --> 00:16:40.154 clocking, which is also essential for those kinds of applications because you 00:16:40.164 --> 00:16:42.994 need extremely low phase noise and jitter. 00:16:43.489 --> 00:16:46.439 sometimes even to femtoseconds level, right? 00:16:47.009 --> 00:16:51.239 And another important topic when we're talking about clocking is 00:16:51.239 --> 00:16:55.839 the synchronization feature with very high accuracy sometimes 00:16:55.839 --> 00:16:57.329 down to one picoseconds. 00:16:57.669 --> 00:16:59.289 And this is really essential. 00:16:59.449 --> 00:17:05.729 For maintaining this precise timing between phased array systems and elements. 00:17:06.239 --> 00:17:10.179 And now if the customers needs a jitter cleaning and distribution 00:17:10.179 --> 00:17:16.734 capabilities for clocking signals, they can use our LMK 04832 SP. 00:17:17.124 --> 00:17:21.894 Or if they, for example, need to generate a signal and need the synthesizer, they 00:17:21.894 --> 00:17:28.594 can use LMX2615 SP or the LMX2694 SP. 00:17:30.614 --> 00:17:36.564 In addition to that, I also wanted to mention a pretty new trend also 00:17:36.574 --> 00:17:41.454 in space application, a lot of customers already trying to replace 00:17:41.464 --> 00:17:46.854 their bulky discreet balloons with fully differential amplifiers. 00:17:47.524 --> 00:17:53.429 And exactly for that reason, We are offering products with high linearity 00:17:53.429 --> 00:17:59.499 across a wide bandwidth up to 12 gigahertz at the moment and the current portfolio 00:17:59.499 --> 00:18:05.059 supports one db gain flatness up to around eight gigahertz at the moment. 00:18:05.909 --> 00:18:11.449 The product is called TRF0206SP which is exactly four differential 00:18:11.479 --> 00:18:14.189 amplifiers for this kind of application. 00:18:15.369 --> 00:18:19.949 And now the big advantage, this fully differential amplifier compared to the 00:18:19.959 --> 00:18:23.319 balloon is much smaller and much lighter. 00:18:23.919 --> 00:18:29.739 So that's a really perfect fit for those space constraints applications like 00:18:29.799 --> 00:18:31.739 communication equipment, for example. 00:18:32.939 --> 00:18:33.289 Hywel: Okay. 00:18:33.289 --> 00:18:33.559 Okay. 00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:33.749 Yeah. 00:18:34.519 --> 00:18:34.699 Yeah. 00:18:34.699 --> 00:18:39.889 I see guys are clearly thinking about everything required to really incorporate 00:18:40.569 --> 00:18:42.859 the phase array antenna technology into. 00:18:43.714 --> 00:18:48.574 Space mission designs and deal with the the interfaces and the data rates, 00:18:48.644 --> 00:18:52.354 the managing the data rates and getting the best out of those systems and 00:18:52.404 --> 00:18:53.954 your communication system as a whole. 00:18:54.134 --> 00:18:57.664 What about the power management, however how is this dealt with? 00:18:58.134 --> 00:19:01.414 Michael: Yeah, this is of course, also a super important topic, 00:19:01.414 --> 00:19:03.114 especially on face the ray antenna. 00:19:03.654 --> 00:19:07.244 And the one thing is you need to have these power. 00:19:07.714 --> 00:19:13.414 Our distribution of power generation devices a daily, highly 00:19:13.414 --> 00:19:15.144 efficient in a small form factor. 00:19:15.144 --> 00:19:19.784 So we talk about our power density, very high, and we're 00:19:19.784 --> 00:19:22.754 talking RF signal, RF solutions. 00:19:23.044 --> 00:19:25.394 So we need to also have very low noise, right? 00:19:25.714 --> 00:19:30.684 We're highly interested in the signal performance, cannot use any noise there. 00:19:31.354 --> 00:19:32.804 And so there is a. 00:19:33.099 --> 00:19:36.649 Quite a lot of solutions we can offer here to really provide here a very 00:19:36.669 --> 00:19:38.479 accurate and stable power supply. 00:19:38.929 --> 00:19:44.029 So here's the so called point of loads, the POLs, like the TPS7H4011 00:19:44.149 --> 00:19:50.139 SP that allows you even up to a 12 volt input to generate They're low 00:19:50.139 --> 00:19:55.889 voltages or you have Another good example is an LDOA very low noise. 00:19:55.889 --> 00:19:59.339 LDO is called the TPS seven H 1 1 1 1. 00:19:59.909 --> 00:20:08.779 sp very easy to remember that has such low noise or high PSRR power supply rejection 00:20:08.779 --> 00:20:12.379 ratio is so extremely good on that one that customers call it really, it's like 00:20:12.379 --> 00:20:17.419 this is an ideal power supply for us and that is of course, extremely helpful. 00:20:18.029 --> 00:20:21.249 For the end product, of course, but also during development, as you 00:20:21.249 --> 00:20:25.189 optimize the system, you just know there's one thing less to worry about, 00:20:25.189 --> 00:20:28.729 you have a perfect rail, whatever causes your signal to degrade. 00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:32.909 It's not that power rail that makes things a lot easier for you, of course. 00:20:33.459 --> 00:20:39.129 So that's the overall power tree for supplying the data converters and maybe 00:20:39.129 --> 00:20:41.579 the FPGA and processing capabilities. 00:20:41.959 --> 00:20:42.639 Another. 00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:47.919 Key element in the power budget is, of course, the power amplifier, the power 00:20:47.949 --> 00:20:54.109 you transmit has to be all generated by this power amplifier and these 00:20:54.129 --> 00:20:57.994 solid state power amplifiers, modern devices, they need a very powerful 00:20:58.884 --> 00:21:01.904 are complex biasing control systems. 00:21:01.904 --> 00:21:05.324 So they need a certain voltage level that needs to be supplied. 00:21:05.784 --> 00:21:09.844 And according to the temperature and the current running through 00:21:09.844 --> 00:21:14.524 the power amplifier, you need to adjust this biasing voltage. 00:21:14.994 --> 00:21:20.209 And Here comes a device from TI that can, it's really helpful here. 00:21:20.209 --> 00:21:27.309 It's called an AFE11612 SEP, a highly integrated analog front end that has 00:21:27.309 --> 00:21:34.709 12 DACs and 16 ADCs plus temperature sensors and a couple of GPIOs integrated. 00:21:35.139 --> 00:21:39.049 And that really helps to get you the PA biasing and control. 00:21:40.369 --> 00:21:42.079 implemented in a very effective way. 00:21:44.179 --> 00:21:46.399 That's the aspect of the power tree itself. 00:21:46.399 --> 00:21:50.779 But in space, we have also the topic and this was many times not really 00:21:51.179 --> 00:21:55.539 immediately thought about is the fault detection, isolation and recovery. 00:21:55.539 --> 00:21:59.429 So whatever we do in space, we need to make sure if something goes wrong. 00:21:59.889 --> 00:22:04.939 the electronics quickly identify the problem, but not only identify it, 00:22:04.939 --> 00:22:08.739 but they need to isolate the problem from the rest of the system and 00:22:08.739 --> 00:22:13.559 need to see how to recover from that and get the system back up working. 00:22:13.949 --> 00:22:16.559 So that's fault detection, isolation, and recovery. 00:22:17.029 --> 00:22:21.099 It's a play of where you need to, of course, need sensors 00:22:21.449 --> 00:22:22.729 and detect the problem. 00:22:22.729 --> 00:22:27.319 So we have this in our power devices, oftentimes integrated with the overcurrent 00:22:27.369 --> 00:22:32.269 protection, overvoltage protection and detection, overtemperature detection 00:22:32.689 --> 00:22:35.479 and corresponding fault output pin. 00:22:35.859 --> 00:22:39.259 So the system can be informed that something went wrong. 00:22:40.259 --> 00:22:46.509 As we talk about isolation, we have load switches with even with precision current 00:22:46.509 --> 00:22:52.759 sensing implemented meanwhile, like here's a device like the TPS7H2140 SP, 00:22:53.589 --> 00:22:57.004 so this is a 32 volt Quad channel issues. 00:22:58.184 --> 00:23:02.544 And these load switches can then either automatically detect that 00:23:02.544 --> 00:23:07.204 something is wrong and switch off and isolate the problematic system 00:23:07.244 --> 00:23:12.134 from the rest of the bus, or can be actually be controlled by another 00:23:12.724 --> 00:23:16.244 system manager to disconnect things. 00:23:16.674 --> 00:23:20.644 And this control and management or orchestrating this whole fault 00:23:20.664 --> 00:23:25.004 detection, isolation and recovery There comes a device handy. 00:23:25.234 --> 00:23:25.854 It's called the 00:23:29.434 --> 00:23:30.234 TMS570LC4357 SEP. 00:23:30.464 --> 00:23:33.564 It's an MCU we just released for SpaceGrade. 00:23:33.974 --> 00:23:40.464 It's a device integrating our Cortex R5 floating point cores and actually 00:23:40.504 --> 00:23:43.094 two of them are operating in lockstep. 00:23:43.794 --> 00:23:49.539 And this overall design here being especially developed for high reliability 00:23:49.539 --> 00:23:54.119 applications that offers a really a very high diagnostic coverage, but also 00:23:54.129 --> 00:23:59.219 a very near instant fault detection, as we call it, and it's here very 00:23:59.219 --> 00:24:01.679 helpful in orchestrate the FDIR. 00:24:04.909 --> 00:24:08.454 Adrien: Michael, let me, At maybe additional point also on the 00:24:08.464 --> 00:24:10.304 multi mission support, right? 00:24:10.544 --> 00:24:15.004 Because it's also a very important point and TI supports simply 00:24:15.004 --> 00:24:17.104 different mission requirements also. 00:24:17.104 --> 00:24:23.314 So depending on the orbit customer is operating the application, so low 00:24:23.374 --> 00:24:29.314 earth orbit or geostationary orbit The customers can choose between a plastic 00:24:29.364 --> 00:24:36.304 package with higher radiation performance, so called QML class P, or plastic 00:24:36.304 --> 00:24:39.454 space enhanced product, so called SEP. 00:24:40.084 --> 00:24:44.434 And now the most important advantage, those products are in 00:24:44.434 --> 00:24:50.104 most cases pin to pin compatible, which offers a huge flexibility 00:24:50.104 --> 00:24:52.084 for customers in their designs. 00:24:52.444 --> 00:24:57.994 And at the same time, it makes Sure, customers are using dedicated 00:24:58.024 --> 00:25:00.824 product for their space environment. 00:25:01.389 --> 00:25:01.889 Okay. 00:25:01.989 --> 00:25:05.489 Hywel: Yeah, this is a very important aspect as well, as we're seeing as 00:25:05.489 --> 00:25:10.019 we discussed, more versatile missions longer missions or missions with multiple 00:25:10.019 --> 00:25:15.359 goals that may be in different orbits potentially or a customer who's creating 00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:19.559 technology for different, different satellites or different vehicles, whatever 00:25:19.559 --> 00:25:25.579 it is for different orbits that, but they want to, limit non recurring energy by 00:25:25.679 --> 00:25:30.659 non recurring engineering, apologies, with a consistent aspect of the technology. 00:25:30.679 --> 00:25:31.829 So yeah, this is great. 00:25:31.839 --> 00:25:32.169 Thank you. 00:25:32.169 --> 00:25:36.499 So I can see how much that TI is doing in this area and mentioning 00:25:36.529 --> 00:25:40.159 fault detection and understand the power management separately from 00:25:40.209 --> 00:25:42.679 the data data rates and the data. 00:25:43.509 --> 00:25:46.899 chain compatibility has been really useful. 00:25:46.899 --> 00:25:47.369 Thank you. 00:25:47.439 --> 00:25:50.719 Thank you for going into detail on this and to the listeners, we'll obviously 00:25:50.719 --> 00:25:54.969 share more information about the different products and TI resources that 00:25:54.969 --> 00:25:56.559 have been mentioned in the show notes. 00:25:56.569 --> 00:26:01.759 So you can read more into how these sorts of technologies and the designs 00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:05.889 of the application notes and the thinking behind them can be readily 00:26:05.889 --> 00:26:09.719 incorporated into your designs, your plans if this is of interest to you. 00:26:09.719 --> 00:26:11.169 So thank you guys for that. 00:26:12.059 --> 00:26:18.159 I just wanted to wrap up by, yeah, coming back to the topic that we started with and 00:26:18.449 --> 00:26:24.179 discuss how in a wider sense, you see this aspect of the space industry evolving. 00:26:24.519 --> 00:26:27.789 It would seem like the RF spectrum is only going to become 00:26:27.899 --> 00:26:29.239 more crowded in the short term. 00:26:29.789 --> 00:26:35.189 And We might then run into issues with an increased regulatory burden, where 00:26:35.189 --> 00:26:39.679 the bodies in charge of apportioning and controlling the spectrum are 00:26:39.679 --> 00:26:44.529 requiring a greater, admin overhead of space missions and companies might even 00:26:44.539 --> 00:26:47.329 make it difficult for some companies, especially those smaller, newer 00:26:47.329 --> 00:26:49.459 teams to get satellites into orbit. 00:26:49.954 --> 00:26:53.624 On the timescales and budgets that, that makes sense to them. 00:26:53.674 --> 00:26:57.614 Yeah, I wondered what your thoughts were on how you see this area changing 00:26:57.614 --> 00:26:59.944 and progressing, moving forwards. 00:27:00.444 --> 00:27:00.914 Yeah, I 00:27:01.164 --> 00:27:04.804 Michael: think it's definitely on the move and I think we have reached. 00:27:05.204 --> 00:27:06.034 Critical mass. 00:27:06.034 --> 00:27:10.704 So that's the trend to face Dorian tennis is probably very hard to reverse anymore. 00:27:11.074 --> 00:27:14.244 But what we will definitely see moving forward is that we will see 00:27:14.244 --> 00:27:16.254 an increase of number of elements. 00:27:16.754 --> 00:27:20.424 Because that gives you always, as we talked about before, a more focused 00:27:20.434 --> 00:27:25.304 beam that you want and allows you also have even more beams per antenna. 00:27:25.654 --> 00:27:29.464 And that all translates then into those benefits of you have maybe 00:27:29.814 --> 00:27:35.854 more users and higher data rates per user per beam, more users overall. 00:27:35.854 --> 00:27:38.204 So just a bigger business after all. 00:27:38.214 --> 00:27:43.084 The other trend, as you say, the spectrum is getting crowded, so people 00:27:43.294 --> 00:27:47.854 try to go even higher frequency bands and as technology proceeds where 00:27:47.854 --> 00:27:52.104 this is entirely possible, and here comes for change something good. 00:27:52.174 --> 00:27:57.184 The higher you go in frequency you're shrinking the space needed 00:27:57.204 --> 00:27:58.704 between the antenna elements. 00:27:59.054 --> 00:27:59.834 So this is you. 00:28:00.264 --> 00:28:01.774 How you put them together. 00:28:02.074 --> 00:28:07.034 Then if these spaces go even smaller, you can have put more elements 00:28:07.534 --> 00:28:11.434 per antenna, per square meter or per area if you want, right? 00:28:11.704 --> 00:28:14.424 So that's actually going really the right direction. 00:28:14.824 --> 00:28:17.084 What's not helping here is that your heat problem. 00:28:17.409 --> 00:28:19.279 increases the moment, right? 00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:23.919 You put even more electronics on an even denser space, but that is where 00:28:24.139 --> 00:28:29.669 yeah, or companies like us at Texas will keep working to help on that area. 00:28:30.429 --> 00:28:33.699 Another positive trend in the satellite technology is that the 00:28:33.699 --> 00:28:36.649 cost of launch per the kilogram. 00:28:37.269 --> 00:28:39.919 per weight keeps this decreasing. 00:28:40.039 --> 00:28:43.659 So that's just where we have multiple new players now that help bring down the 00:28:43.659 --> 00:28:45.689 cost in this newer rockets and launches. 00:28:46.149 --> 00:28:50.659 And that enables them even more satellite players, more application 00:28:50.659 --> 00:28:53.149 services, business models there. 00:28:53.149 --> 00:28:56.229 And maybe look at an example like cell phones. 00:28:56.239 --> 00:29:00.099 Of course, they're directly connected to satellites already today. 00:29:00.369 --> 00:29:05.129 We can do voice, we can do text, but moving forward, we will have true 00:29:05.219 --> 00:29:10.929 broadband Our internet access over satellites from our cell phones. 00:29:11.909 --> 00:29:16.959 So in every area of the, on earth, you can really reach your broadband connectivity. 00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:23.829 And so we see there is an continuous grow and development 00:29:23.849 --> 00:29:25.519 in this market ahead of us. 00:29:26.069 --> 00:29:30.159 That means that our customers need to redevelop, but they also want 00:29:30.159 --> 00:29:32.586 to reuse things they want to, use. 00:29:32.956 --> 00:29:36.766 Standardized components, so they don't always have to start from scratch. 00:29:36.976 --> 00:29:40.526 They can really have an evolution in the product development. 00:29:41.086 --> 00:29:45.076 And there's also the need for one development and support 00:29:45.106 --> 00:29:46.586 multiple mission profiles. 00:29:47.226 --> 00:29:51.926 Adrian had pointed out you have the SEP for the LEO missions, 00:29:51.966 --> 00:29:53.996 the QMLP for the GEO missions. 00:29:54.606 --> 00:29:56.916 Moving forward, you have the pin compatibility. 00:29:57.636 --> 00:30:02.376 And all that in mind this is where TI is so convinced what's needed here is really. 00:30:02.736 --> 00:30:07.346 Space great catalog products in a way, you know what they are, you can reorder 00:30:08.116 --> 00:30:12.476 when you want them, you can reorder as many as you want, and you can do 00:30:12.476 --> 00:30:14.996 this also in 10 or 15 years from now. 00:30:15.476 --> 00:30:16.116 Hywel: Fantastic. 00:30:16.616 --> 00:30:20.096 That makes sense as the, as a, an approach to the industry. 00:30:20.106 --> 00:30:23.556 Yeah, I think we've seen how this. 00:30:23.926 --> 00:30:26.746 These kinds of approaches obviously work in other industry sectors. 00:30:26.746 --> 00:30:30.296 And I think yeah, TI is really doing a great job of operating in this 00:30:30.296 --> 00:30:34.896 manner and yeah, it was great to to understand your thinking behind 00:30:35.026 --> 00:30:36.666 how this area is moving forward. 00:30:36.666 --> 00:30:40.016 So I think this is a great place to wrap up today's conversation. 00:30:40.046 --> 00:30:41.246 Thank you both for sharing. 00:30:41.326 --> 00:30:45.506 Thank you, Adrian and Michael for sharing so many of your insights today on how. 00:30:45.851 --> 00:30:50.001 Face array antennas work what they use for the advantages that 00:30:50.001 --> 00:30:51.561 they bring, how to cope with. 00:30:52.246 --> 00:30:56.156 The trade offs in terms of, the power and the heat and the engineering 00:30:56.236 --> 00:31:02.566 complexity and what can be done to ease that integration and of the, of such 00:31:02.706 --> 00:31:06.296 technologies into existing designs and space missions and plans for the future. 00:31:06.296 --> 00:31:08.056 So thank you both very much. 00:31:08.106 --> 00:31:10.786 We'll share, and to the listeners, we'll share more information on the 00:31:10.786 --> 00:31:14.556 products and resources mentioned by the guests today in the show notes. 00:31:15.066 --> 00:31:15.836 And you can find out. 00:31:16.586 --> 00:31:20.516 More about TI on their website and on their search portfolio, which is very 00:31:20.516 --> 00:31:24.306 extensive and has a lot of information on the products that we've discussed today. 00:31:24.946 --> 00:31:28.266 So thank you to everybody out there for spending time with us today 00:31:28.266 --> 00:31:29.626 on the Space Industry Podcast. 00:31:29.626 --> 00:31:31.436 We really appreciate your attention. 00:31:31.686 --> 00:31:36.596 If you like the show, please give us an honest rating and review 00:31:36.596 --> 00:31:38.056 on your favorite podcast player. 00:31:38.521 --> 00:31:42.711 And stay tuned for the next episode of the show, when we will be speaking to more of 00:31:42.711 --> 00:31:44.921 the companies taking us all into orbit. 00:31:45.311 --> 00:31:46.071 Thank you very much. 00:31:48.831 --> 00:31:52.351 Thank you for listening to this episode of the Space Industry by SatSearch. 00:31:52.701 --> 00:31:55.871 I hope you enjoyed today's story about one of the companies taking us into orbit. 00:31:56.491 --> 00:31:58.971 We'll be back soon with more in depth, behind the scenes insights 00:31:58.981 --> 00:32:00.301 from private space businesses. 00:32:00.871 --> 00:32:02.741 In the meantime, you can go to satsearch. 00:32:02.751 --> 00:32:06.761 com for more information on the space industry today, or find us on social media 00:32:06.771 --> 00:32:08.161 if you have any questions or comments. 00:32:08.161 --> 00:32:11.441 To stay up to date, please subscribe to our weekly newsletter, and 00:32:11.441 --> 00:32:14.931 you can also get each podcast on demand on iTunes, Spotify, the 00:32:14.931 --> 00:32:17.871 Google Play Store, or whichever podcast service you typically use.