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This file was generated by Descript 

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Sam: Hello and welcome
back to The 10, 000 Things.

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I'm Sam Ellis.

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Joe: I'm Joe Loh.

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Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados.

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Sam: It's really good to see you guys.

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Yeah.

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Joe: Today on the show, attachment.

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Sam: Yeah, we're raw dogging it.

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Joe: So, you

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Sam: know, you don't want
to, you don't want to.

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Grease me up for some small talk.

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First

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Joe: attachment is basically
the new Myers-Briggs.

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Yeah.

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. That's true.

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It's what everyone's talking
about in the dating world.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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We are doing small talk.

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Uh, everyone knows their attachment style.

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Mm-Hmm.

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. And where everyone, I say everyone
in the navel gazing upper middle

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class inner city of Melbourne.

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Sam: So why did you say everyone.

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Joe: Well, that's everyone I know.

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You need to

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Sam: expand your

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Joe: I mean, that's

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Ali: Just telling on yourself is fine.

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Joe: That's my only

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Sam: We are an inclusive show, aren't we?

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Joe: That's my only sample
size is everyone I meet dating

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knows about attachment styles.

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Yeah.

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But I thought I'd do a little
explainer for the listener who

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doesn't know what they are.

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And it's actually grounded
in quite solid science.

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Sam: Your whole life is
a New Yorker think piece.

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Joe: Uh, unlike a lot of the stuff
that's out there, I think it's quite

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grounded in, in science and it comes
from, A guy called Bowlby in the fifties.

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Oh, shit.

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You've done your homework.

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That was my job.

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I have done my homework.

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Sam: I've done my homework.

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Joe: Just let me do a monologue.

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look, it's about attachment to the primary
carer, usually the mother in infancy.

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And for practical purposes in, uh, modern,
dating and relating, You end up with an

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attachment style from how you attach to
your mother in infancy, and they can be

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categorized roughly in three categories,
which is anxious, avoidant, or secure,

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Ali: and disorganized.

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Well, then

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Joe: there's combos of those, so you might
have anxious, avoidant, and disorganized.

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You know, and you might
switch from anxious to secure

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within a healthy relationship.

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And back.

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Um, like Myers Briggs, you can do a quick
five minute online survey and find out

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what your attachment style supposedly is.

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Sam: The difference between Myers
Briggs This actually helps people and

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Joe: it's grounded in some good science.

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Yeah.

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So there's like, I don't know, 70 years of
clinical literature batch backing it up.

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It's very solid.

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It's solid.

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Certainly for infants.

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how solid it is for adults and how it
plays into dating and relationships.

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I think, I think it's,

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Ali: It's helpful in having that awareness
of yourself in the dating context, because

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it doesn't, I don't think it dictates how
you are going to be in a relationship.

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All it is, is identifying what your, I
suppose, natural behavior is going to be,

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whether you then act on it or conscious
of it and, you know, consciously decide.

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So, it's, it's, it's having that awareness
at least of why am I feeling like this?

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And then being able to positively
move forward with healthy behavior.

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So it looks secure, or you
might not be feeling secure,

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but you are behaving securely.

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Joe: The image that just came
into my head was, you know, that,

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is it a Michael Jackson video
where he turns into a werewolf?

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Thriller.

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Or, no, what am I thinking of?

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Michael J.

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Fox.

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Michael J.

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Fox.

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Teen Wolf.

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Teen Wolf.

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And he looks down at his hands.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So, like, and he's
turning into a werewolf.

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Anxious attachment is like that for me.

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Yeah.

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When I send a text message, don't get
a reply, send another text message.

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The monster comes out.

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Don't get a reply, and
then send another one.

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Yeah.

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The treble text.

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Oh.

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Sure.

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Like, I will, like,
what is happening to me?

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You know?

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Because I'm losing all my self
respect and I feel like I'm drowning.

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Sam: Actually, self respect is
the wrong concept, but carry on.

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Joe: I feel like I'm drowning.

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An anxious attachment has been, for
me, anecdotally, in my own experience,

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the most accurate way to explain
What's happening to me in those moments

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where I feel possessed and I can't
I'm almost watching myself do shit

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that I know I shouldn't be doing.

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Sam: Oh my god.

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We've got dangerous levels of agreement
going on here Joe I'm so impressed

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Joe: Well, firstly, what
did you ever take the test?

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What did you come out as?

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Sam: I didn't need to take
the test because I'd already

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worked it all out for myself.

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Joe: That's the most Sam thing ever.

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You would have to be disorganized.

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Sam: Yes.

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Well done.

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I was going to ask you.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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No, the most disorganized
attachment you've ever seen.

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No, that's not true.

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I've seen worse than me.

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I was

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Ali: I feel like I might give
you a run for your money.

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Sam: Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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And someone else I know,
and I won't name names.

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Joe, uh, you've done your homework, we
agree on it, the same amount, it would

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seem, and you've been able to apply it.

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You've said that nothing else
you've come across has given you

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the ability to understand your own
behavior to like these specific

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behaviors so usefully and powerfully.

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And that's, these are
literally all of my thoughts.

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And I guess my little preface to the
thing is like what Ali said before

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about, Natural behaviors, and we don't
mean healthy when we say natural.

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Ali: Yeah, it's just what's our go to.

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What's the brain thinking
versus what it should be doing.

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Yes.

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Sam: And the only thing I would sort of
add or correct to anything you've said so

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far is just these things are impacted by
the father as well, but yes, the mother

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tends to be, you know, the primary.

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The, other thing that I wanted to
add,   these are adaptive strategies

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and that they're correct in the sense
that they worked for the person who

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learned these strategies and they are
not maladaptive in all circumstances.

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So to take away the jargon, you aren't.

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wrong with everything you're
doing, this was the right thing to

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do for you when you were little.

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Ali: So if you weren't getting the
attention that you needed as a child,

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crying out and asking for that and
then getting the attention reinforces

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that, that if I behave this way,
that's how it's going to get it.

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Sam: This is how I get reassurance.

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Yeah.

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Ali: And similarly, like with,
avoidant, it's like, Oh, if I, you

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know, Expressing my feelings is
going to cause a problem for me.

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So I'm going to not say anything
at all, or I'm going to withdraw.

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And that's how these things
become very entrenched.

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Joe: So God's cruel joke in setting
things up this way is that anxious people

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tend to be attracted to avoidant people.

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Sam: Yes.

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It's not, well, no, it actually
just makes, at first I was really

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puzzled by it, but once I understood
what was going on, I'm like, Oh

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no, no, this makes complete sense.

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And I would just substitute the word
attracted with compelled to pursue.

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And that's a very different thing
because the objective, but it feels

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the same and it creates chemistry.

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And so this is why people
keep repeating patterns.

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Yeah.

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Ali: It's like, is it your
pattern or is it your type?

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And that, that's what I
was saying to Joe in that.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Like it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It feels completely normal, yeah,
to have somebody either, yeah,

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pulling away from you or doing that.

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So, because that was your
experience, yeah, as a child.

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So it, it, yeah, it feels really
familiar and that's why I like,

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oh, that's, this is chemistry.

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So can

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Joe: you describe, uh, disorganized
attachment and how it's played out in say,

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the last five years of your dating life?

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Ali: So yeah, I, well, disorganized
attachment, which is, it's

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rooted in trauma or it's linked
very much to childhood trauma.

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So yeah, it's a combination of
anxious and avoidant attachment style.

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So it's, it's really contextual
depending on who you're with.

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Sam: And if I could just butt in for
two seconds, what will make this much

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clearer to understand is when we say
that someone's, you know, dominantly

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the anxious style, it means the
majority of their strategies when it

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comes to creating secure attachment,
that's what everyone's seeking.

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So we haven't spelt
this out clearly enough.

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The fundamental assumption behind
all of this work is that primary

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human drive is secure attachment.

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So not even sex or food.

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So before those things, and there are
studies that demonstrate this, the monkey

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that prefers the soft thing that reminds
itself of its mother over the food.

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So profound is our desire
for secure attachment.

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That's the underlying
theory of this whole thing.

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Therefore, When our attachment is
threatened, it is literally felt as

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a threat on our existence, our life
itself and the purpose of life itself

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has all been threatened all at once.

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Without secure human attachment, we cannot
survive and we certainly cannot thrive.

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Money though has a way of creating an
illusion that we can meet all of our

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own needs without other human beings.

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And so many of us have a fantasy
if we had enough money, we wouldn't

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need to rely on anyone for anything.

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But the truth is, no one can live a
full and happy life without music.

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secure attachment with other human beings.

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So we might end up with a dominantly
anxious or dominantly avoidant style,

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or like Ali and I, we're an absolute
nightmare of a patchwork of strategies

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across all these different circumstances.

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And there's no real pattern to it until
you've observed it for long enough.

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And then you can see, Oh, all of these
responses make sense in their own way.

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Oh sorry, carry on with disordered words.

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Joe: We'll come back to your personal
experience of it within a marriage,

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which will be different from experience
of it within dating, but yeah, Ali,

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get back to where you were before.

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So I just wanted to get all that
straight just in case anyone's

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confused up front about that.

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Sam: Yeah.

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Anyway, go for it.

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Ali: So I've certainly been
in what I would say felt

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secure in adult relationships.

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I've felt secure.

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I haven't,

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Sam: you know what it feels like.

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Ali: Yeah.

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I know, I do know what it feels like.

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And I think, like I said, it's
contextual because whoever I'm with

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is for whatever reason, not making
me feel anxious by their behaviors.

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So they do give all  the
attention or whatever that I need.

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And similarly will pull
back when I, I need that.

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Sam: And so I know how to
not make you feel smothered.

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Ali: Yeah, exactly.

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So it's, and it's, uh, and
that's what makes me feel secure.

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So it's been interesting.

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Yeah.

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So my two long term relationships, yeah,
we're both secure relationships and I

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felt secure in those while I was in them.

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It was, yeah, going into dating has
been a totally different, a minefield.

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So yeah, like I, yeah, you send them,
you're like, why is this person, why

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am I, you know, I say to my girlfriend,
like, why am I going psycho over

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this, like, not getting a text back?

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Why is this driving me crazy?

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Like what is it specifically
about this person?

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And it's, it's, yeah, there's something
that I'm not getting from them.

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And we mistake that for like, yeah,
some sort of attraction or a desire.

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Ultimately, we want to be
chosen, like that's a very human

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thing to want to be chosen.

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Like, Oh, I want to be
the exception to the rule.

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I want this person yet to
choose me for whatever reason.

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And similarly, I just

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Sam: want to be married.

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I don't care who too.

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Ali: Yeah.

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And then, and similarly with the,
like when I've , displayed avoidant

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tendencies and it's when someone has.

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Being overly, you know,
communicating yeah.

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Like felt smothered and it's like,
I don't know what to do with this.

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Oh, this is like offputting.

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I, I don't know.

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Yeah.

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I'm, so, I, I withdraw and being
very aware of those behaviors,

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I think it's made the choice for
me not so much about like, um.

00:11:08.208 --> 00:11:12.048
You know, modifying all of my behaviors,
obviously not being completely crazy

00:11:12.048 --> 00:11:15.148
and psycho and like, you know, and,
and giving into every urge or whatever,

00:11:15.378 --> 00:11:20.238
but you know, it should be healthy and
normal, but the, whatever normal is, but

00:11:20.258 --> 00:11:24.528
it is, it's made me consciously aware
of who I'm choosing to be with and what

00:11:24.528 --> 00:11:26.488
feelings I'm feeling when I'm with them.

00:11:26.648 --> 00:11:30.108
And if I'm feeling secure and
stable with them, that's, That's

00:11:30.108 --> 00:11:33.448
a better feeling than, yeah,
that's, that's what I'm going with.

00:11:33.448 --> 00:11:37.538
And that's, that's the one I should
be pursuing rather than the one that's

00:11:37.538 --> 00:11:39.408
making me feel a bit crazy about myself.

00:11:39.718 --> 00:11:39.998
Joe: Correct.

00:11:40.008 --> 00:11:43.868
Like from what Sam said that we
will feel like we won't survive

00:11:43.868 --> 00:11:45.338
unless we get secure attachment.

00:11:45.398 --> 00:11:45.688
Sam: Yeah.

00:11:45.688 --> 00:11:47.288
It's like a threat to our life.

00:11:47.328 --> 00:11:47.808
Joe: Yeah.

00:11:47.808 --> 00:11:48.548
It's fight or flight.

00:11:48.548 --> 00:11:51.738
Have you ever had that in the last five
years of dating ever had that, what

00:11:51.738 --> 00:11:55.748
I'm describing, a feeling of drowning,
which is what Sam contextualized

00:11:55.808 --> 00:11:57.868
as feeling that I won't survive.

00:11:58.678 --> 00:12:02.028
Feeling like I won't survive is just,
I would describe as feel like I'm

00:12:02.028 --> 00:12:06.688
drowning, like I'm running out of air
here and all that's happened is someone

00:12:06.688 --> 00:12:08.928
has left me on read for three hours.

00:12:08.928 --> 00:12:12.898
Sam: I prefer the drowning metaphor to
the more clinical language I've used.

00:12:12.898 --> 00:12:14.828
It's powerful.

00:12:14.828 --> 00:12:15.418
Cause it's, yeah,

00:12:15.418 --> 00:12:15.618
Joe: it's.

00:12:15.658 --> 00:12:16.858
Have you had that though?

00:12:16.948 --> 00:12:17.268
Yes.

00:12:17.268 --> 00:12:18.418
As a disorganized style.

00:12:18.438 --> 00:12:19.108
Ali: Yeah, absolutely.

00:12:19.108 --> 00:12:19.768
I felt it.

00:12:19.768 --> 00:12:22.528
It's, But that it's, our
brains are designed to keep us

00:12:22.528 --> 00:12:24.478
alive, not and to keep us safe.

00:12:24.478 --> 00:12:25.328
Not to make us happy.

00:12:25.380 --> 00:12:26.420
Joe: But let me ask you this.

00:12:26.420 --> 00:12:30.130
You say it feels nice when you go
into secure attachment or towards

00:12:30.130 --> 00:12:33.230
secure attachment, which you,
you believe you're capable of?

00:12:33.260 --> 00:12:33.660
Ali: Yes.

00:12:33.700 --> 00:12:33.820
Right.

00:12:34.200 --> 00:12:35.090
But it, it.

00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:38.870
Sometimes that can be mistaken as boring.

00:12:39.090 --> 00:12:39.680
Sam: Yeah.

00:12:40.130 --> 00:12:41.010
Joe: That's what I was going to say.

00:12:41.490 --> 00:12:44.760
How do you compare that feeling of
going towards secure attachment to

00:12:44.760 --> 00:12:49.490
that feeling of relief and exhilaration
when that person you're anxiously

00:12:49.490 --> 00:12:51.310
attached to does give you the attention?

00:12:51.370 --> 00:12:53.840
Ali: Oh, that's thrilling
and intoxicating.

00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:56.980
Joe: It's like heroin, I need some more.

00:12:57.160 --> 00:12:58.305
Ali: Oh yeah, it's just, it's fun.

00:12:58.645 --> 00:13:01.795
It's feeding something in the brain
that's probably extremely unhealthy,

00:13:01.795 --> 00:13:03.985
but it feels, it's euphoric.

00:13:03.985 --> 00:13:05.375
It's like, Oh, I finally got the thing.

00:13:05.385 --> 00:13:06.475
Yeah, I got chosen.

00:13:06.475 --> 00:13:07.465
I was, that's the one I want.

00:13:07.465 --> 00:13:07.705
So there you go.

00:13:07.915 --> 00:13:10.515
Joe: That's the, that's my last
eight years of dating summed up.

00:13:10.785 --> 00:13:14.630
Basically, I'm addicted to that
feeling of relief when that person

00:13:14.630 --> 00:13:19.330
who you're not sure wants to be with
you gives you the full attention,

00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:20.270
Ali: it's extremely validating,

00:13:20.660 --> 00:13:25.090
Joe: on for even if it's for an
hour, that I can stay high on for

00:13:25.090 --> 00:13:30.330
days, whereas someone calmly and
stably consistently saying they

00:13:30.330 --> 00:13:32.170
would like to Hang out with you.

00:13:32.580 --> 00:13:36.810
I just, I have to try and
trick myself into wanting that,

00:13:37.247 --> 00:13:38.977
Ali: It's not so much
about tricking yourself.

00:13:38.977 --> 00:13:39.877
Sam: I know that feeling though.

00:13:40.027 --> 00:13:40.377
Ali: It is.

00:13:40.617 --> 00:13:45.642
It's like, yeah, my psychologist is
like, just give it time and, go back

00:13:45.672 --> 00:13:48.962
to your list of things that you want
and are looking for in a relationship

00:13:48.972 --> 00:13:53.022
and see if it's actually ticking all
those boxes and you feel secure with it.

00:13:53.062 --> 00:13:56.622
That's, That's the healthy goal, like
work towards that and just give it time.

00:13:56.862 --> 00:14:00.922
The thing with the, the anxious and the
avoidance sort of stuff is that that all

00:14:00.922 --> 00:14:04.732
sort of happens quite quickly and you
get triggered by it extremely quickly.

00:14:04.752 --> 00:14:05.432
Like with some people,

00:14:06.002 --> 00:14:07.412
Joe: within two weeks, it's like,

00:14:07.462 --> 00:14:08.092
Ali: yeah, you're not yourself.

00:14:08.092 --> 00:14:10.671
Joe: My whole life depends on
what this person thinks of me.

00:14:10.672 --> 00:14:10.862
Ali: Yeah.

00:14:10.862 --> 00:14:14.242
And you're, and you're making really
like, yeah, I'm making really bad

00:14:14.242 --> 00:14:16.722
decisions and you know, things
that are not healthy and impulsive.

00:14:17.192 --> 00:14:17.492
Yeah.

00:14:17.622 --> 00:14:20.842
Joe: How is that explained by people
who don't know about attachment style?

00:14:20.842 --> 00:14:22.002
Is that explained as.

00:14:22.232 --> 00:14:25.602
I've met the one or this is hot and sexy.

00:14:25.782 --> 00:14:26.172
Absolutely.

00:14:26.172 --> 00:14:29.652
Because we have this clinical knowledge
that yeah, not it's, it's in the

00:14:29.652 --> 00:14:32.982
zeitgeist in Melbourne, but I don't
know how many people know about it.

00:14:33.002 --> 00:14:35.592
Sam: So can I just say this,
even if it's in the zeitgeist,

00:14:35.752 --> 00:14:38.612
the vast majority of people have
not grasped the topic properly.

00:14:39.092 --> 00:14:44.572
And I know this because I listened to
about six different podcasts on the topic.

00:14:44.612 --> 00:14:47.372
So I'm absolutely down
the rabbit hole on this.

00:14:47.432 --> 00:14:48.212
I'm an evangelist.

00:14:48.602 --> 00:14:52.175
I'm completely sold on it, so take
everything I say with a grain of salt.

00:14:52.175 --> 00:14:53.158
Well, tell us about your experience.

00:14:53.158 --> 00:14:56.322
I mean I'll absolutely
go there, and I'll Yeah.

00:14:56.372 --> 00:14:59.637
But I just want to say this first,
the practitioners These themselves

00:14:59.687 --> 00:15:02.277
gently express a degree of frustration
with the fact that people don't

00:15:02.277 --> 00:15:03.657
actually understand this properly.

00:15:04.037 --> 00:15:08.885
And the two big misunderstandings are,
that avoidant is narcissism and that

00:15:08.885 --> 00:15:13.605
avoidant are bad people and that anxious
are victims and avoidant are, you

00:15:13.605 --> 00:15:18.480
know, abusers, which is really, really,
really, really, really Dreadfully unfair.

00:15:18.490 --> 00:15:19.620
Ali: And it's completely inaccurate.

00:15:19.630 --> 00:15:20.850
And completely inaccurate.

00:15:20.940 --> 00:15:21.360
And

00:15:21.370 --> 00:15:25.230
Sam: the people that are walking around
believing that are really doing themselves

00:15:25.410 --> 00:15:31.050
a disservice because this is a story as we
talk about in therapy, stories that help

00:15:31.050 --> 00:15:36.390
us to hide things and hide from things and
stories that get us away from the truth.

00:15:36.390 --> 00:15:39.450
And this is one of them because that
story protects that person from the

00:15:39.450 --> 00:15:40.900
need to change anything they're doing.

00:15:41.450 --> 00:15:46.495
And it, It enables us to place the
locus of the security onto someone

00:15:46.495 --> 00:15:48.145
else, which is the whole problem.

00:15:48.665 --> 00:15:51.465
When we're, whether we're doing
anxious or avoidant or disordered,

00:15:51.465 --> 00:15:56.135
it all boils down to the same thing
that we feel our security depends

00:15:56.135 --> 00:15:57.725
on what this other person is doing.

00:15:58.125 --> 00:16:01.045
And we're not paying enough
attention to what we can control

00:16:01.045 --> 00:16:02.705
and what we need to do differently.

00:16:03.255 --> 00:16:09.080
And Becoming more conscious of triggers
and patterns of response and just

00:16:09.140 --> 00:16:14.530
inch by inch cutting those back and
not going as far each time and then

00:16:14.530 --> 00:16:19.870
eventually not even acting on the
trigger at all and recognizing that

00:16:20.950 --> 00:16:22.240
we can't feel securely attached.

00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:29.150
All by ourselves, but experiencing a
feeling of security just in our own body.

00:16:29.730 --> 00:16:31.200
That's where we have to begin.

00:16:31.880 --> 00:16:36.470
And when people talk very vague in
vague terms about self care, I think

00:16:36.470 --> 00:16:41.020
we need to be much more specific,
creating safety for ourselves.

00:16:41.490 --> 00:16:43.860
And then we can start to

00:16:43.860 --> 00:16:44.540
respond to other human beings.

00:16:44.540 --> 00:16:47.840
Joe: Because that was one question
I had from what you said before

00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:50.970
was, well, this need to attach is

00:16:51.710 --> 00:16:52.010
Sam: Fundamental.

00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:52.900
Joe: Fundamental.

00:16:52.950 --> 00:16:56.330
What about people who are single,
like my mum's been single for

00:16:56.330 --> 00:16:58.150
20 plus years since my dad died.

00:16:58.150 --> 00:16:59.170
Well, she'll have really good friends.

00:16:59.300 --> 00:17:03.500
She has great friends, but is she
attaching to, see attachment to me.

00:17:04.070 --> 00:17:08.470
I only experience any intensity of
it, really, in romantic relationships.

00:17:08.470 --> 00:17:08.780
Well, sure.

00:17:08.780 --> 00:17:10.820
Sam: And this, and this is, this
is why romantic relationships have

00:17:10.820 --> 00:17:13.660
become the focus for all of the
discussion about attachment theory.

00:17:13.660 --> 00:17:16.250
But there's a whole area we're
neglecting here, which is friendships

00:17:16.300 --> 00:17:18.250
and children, parent relationships.

00:17:18.260 --> 00:17:18.820
Ali: Exactly.

00:17:18.820 --> 00:17:19.220
Yeah.

00:17:19.260 --> 00:17:23.340
Like there will be, there will be people
who, yeah, have that anxious feeling every

00:17:23.340 --> 00:17:25.520
time their parent calls them or avoidant

00:17:27.210 --> 00:17:28.027
Sam: towards their parents or that,

00:17:28.027 --> 00:17:30.365
Ali: yeah, there's some sort of.

00:17:30.835 --> 00:17:31.935
Yeah, similarly with friends.

00:17:31.935 --> 00:17:33.425
It's like, Oh, my friend
hasn't called me back.

00:17:33.625 --> 00:17:34.745
What have I done wrong?

00:17:34.755 --> 00:17:37.635
Like that will feel those feel,
you know, I want to apologize.

00:17:37.705 --> 00:17:38.415
What have I done wrong?

00:17:38.455 --> 00:17:40.655
And they're feeling that with
all of their attachments.

00:17:40.655 --> 00:17:43.215
Sam: All my friends having feelings again.

00:17:43.215 --> 00:17:44.165
I just can't cope.

00:17:44.195 --> 00:17:44.525
Ali: Yeah.

00:17:44.725 --> 00:17:47.855
Joe: I'll get anxious if I say
something particularly nasty to

00:17:47.855 --> 00:17:51.875
Ali, which I'll do because me
and Ali texts all day, every day.

00:17:51.885 --> 00:17:54.935
Sam: The reason you're still friends is
you can say mean things and she finds it.

00:17:55.225 --> 00:17:56.600
She deals with it.

00:17:56.670 --> 00:17:57.700
Relatively well,

00:17:58.010 --> 00:18:01.570
yeah, but I will get anxious if it's
like, Oh, I think that could be it.

00:18:01.580 --> 00:18:03.150
I think she might not talk to me again,

00:18:06.230 --> 00:18:06.600
but

00:18:06.850 --> 00:18:13.010
Ali: semi regularly, no, it's, it's
about then me putting in a boundary with

00:18:13.010 --> 00:18:16.870
myself and going, you know, I'm just
going to take a step back, calm down.

00:18:17.010 --> 00:18:19.520
Well, you know, I'll tell her,
I'll say like, that's why I

00:18:19.520 --> 00:18:20.530
found that really offensive.

00:18:20.580 --> 00:18:24.080
Joe: All I'm saying is, I guess.

00:18:24.230 --> 00:18:30.040
I can feel that some sense of
that same sense of Uh, drowning

00:18:30.150 --> 00:18:33.410
in a friendship context, but even
then it's nowhere near as intense.

00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:33.800
Sam: Okay.

00:18:33.800 --> 00:18:35.010
And this is because

00:18:35.340 --> 00:18:37.730
Ali: you feel relatively secure
that, you know, Oh, she's just

00:18:37.760 --> 00:18:39.120
taking a moment or like, yeah,

00:18:39.120 --> 00:18:43.510
Joe: I don't know, but I, I more
rationally than in the romantic

00:18:43.510 --> 00:18:47.870
relationship think if that person
never talks to me, I'll be okay because

00:18:47.870 --> 00:18:50.950
I have a map in my head of say a
hundred friends that I have, right?

00:18:51.955 --> 00:18:55.565
With a romantic partner, I'm a
monogamist, one person at a time.

00:18:55.605 --> 00:18:57.475
I'm only ever thinking this person.

00:18:57.725 --> 00:19:02.875
And as you know, like, and plus I'm
imagining maybe 30 years together of a

00:19:02.875 --> 00:19:09.675
future and being on a boogie boards at
70, you know, like, like I, I will do.

00:19:09.715 --> 00:19:11.205
Sam: Disordered attachment
going on so much.

00:19:11.205 --> 00:19:11.695
Yeah.

00:19:11.985 --> 00:19:12.745
This is crazy stuff.

00:19:12.745 --> 00:19:16.155
Joe: But like, because there's all
this going on in my imagination of

00:19:16.155 --> 00:19:20.705
the future, when they suddenly don't
reply to a text or they suddenly.

00:19:21.305 --> 00:19:23.885
Cancel a plan or whatever it is,

00:19:23.895 --> 00:19:24.605
Sam: it's very painful.

00:19:24.635 --> 00:19:24.815
Ali: Yeah.

00:19:24.815 --> 00:19:26.295
It's the loss of your imagined future.

00:19:26.305 --> 00:19:29.555
Joe: Whereas one of many friends
suddenly not talking to me for a

00:19:29.555 --> 00:19:32.575
few hours doesn't hit the same way.

00:19:32.615 --> 00:19:32.945
Right.

00:19:33.205 --> 00:19:33.285
Ali: But

00:19:33.475 --> 00:19:37.145
there's a different, like, it's not
like I'm going to, in the context of

00:19:37.205 --> 00:19:41.755
yeah, us, I, I haven't just gone like,
Ghosted for two weeks or whatever.

00:19:41.755 --> 00:19:45.665
And you've never heard like, I don't,
so I think maybe, yeah, you know, yeah,

00:19:45.695 --> 00:19:48.655
she just might need a couple, like you
said, a couple of hours or it could be,

00:19:48.825 --> 00:19:51.785
you know, even if it was a few days,
it's, it's, it's different to then, yeah.

00:19:51.785 --> 00:19:55.745
Like somebody just sort of going no
contact in the, without any explanation

00:19:55.745 --> 00:19:59.420
in the dating context, which happens
all the time for a variety of reasons.

00:19:59.420 --> 00:19:59.710
So,

00:19:59.710 --> 00:20:02.730
Sam: so I guess what's happening
here, if you want my opinion, is that

00:20:03.330 --> 00:20:06.950
you, you're experiencing a degree of
secure attachment with friendships.

00:20:07.070 --> 00:20:11.510
And so you're not highly likely to
panic about friends withdrawing.

00:20:11.980 --> 00:20:14.950
So friends are not going to trigger
your anxious attachment too easily.

00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:20.630
And you're actually pretty good with doing
boundaries avoidant tendencies either.

00:20:21.210 --> 00:20:21.640
But

00:20:21.930 --> 00:20:24.110
Ali: it's because your
expectations around.

00:20:24.520 --> 00:20:27.930
Friendships and what you will get from
friendships is different to what your

00:20:27.930 --> 00:20:29.790
expectations are in a romantic context.

00:20:29.790 --> 00:20:30.340
Sam: That's other thing is

00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:33.600
your expectations with friends
are actually quite balanced

00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:36.230
and achievable and sane.

00:20:36.470 --> 00:20:40.280
And those are what your Intimate
relationship expectations need to be also

00:20:40.280 --> 00:20:43.166
Joe: I mean, I'm always testing with
friends, so I will do things like

00:20:43.166 --> 00:20:43.660
Sam: Yes, you do.

00:20:43.660 --> 00:20:45.980
You are a raptor testing the fences.

00:20:45.980 --> 00:20:46.630
Yes, it's true.

00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:51.690
Joe: Well, there's testing in terms of
can I attack or say something might be

00:20:51.690 --> 00:20:57.230
offensive to the dominant, you know,
cultural norms of our community or

00:20:57.230 --> 00:21:01.180
whatever, and see what happens .And
like since the last episode we recorded,

00:21:01.190 --> 00:21:04.890
both of you call me a cunt on the,
independently about different things,

00:21:04.890 --> 00:21:06.390
call me a cunt on the group chat.

00:21:06.390 --> 00:21:07.040
Sam: Show gossip.

00:21:07.080 --> 00:21:07.390
Ali: Yep.

00:21:08.260 --> 00:21:08.600
Behind the scenes.

00:21:10.470 --> 00:21:14.090
Joe: But like, that's one tip, but the
other tip, so that's one form of testing.

00:21:14.090 --> 00:21:19.270
But then when we then meet up and it's
all fine in person, then that's true

00:21:19.550 --> 00:21:21.660
to me, that friendship is stronger.

00:21:21.950 --> 00:21:22.470
Sam: Oh, I agree.

00:21:22.470 --> 00:21:24.100
Joe: Oh, I can go right out there.

00:21:24.450 --> 00:21:28.500
And explore ideas I find interesting
and, and be called a cunt for it.

00:21:28.500 --> 00:21:29.410
Sam: It's brought us closer together.

00:21:29.420 --> 00:21:29.830
Ali: Yes.

00:21:30.260 --> 00:21:32.640
Joe: And then come back and that
person, but I wouldn't, you know,

00:21:33.180 --> 00:21:36.240
because I've only ever been in the
first six months of a relationship in

00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:39.140
the last eight years, you never quite
get to a point where you're like, I

00:21:39.140 --> 00:21:40.600
can push this and see what happens.

00:21:40.630 --> 00:21:40.900
Sam: Yeah.

00:21:40.970 --> 00:21:43.110
Ali: And then you've got to the other
side of it and seen it's going to be okay.

00:21:43.110 --> 00:21:45.030
Joe: And if you push it and see
what happens, usually it's over.

00:21:45.300 --> 00:21:46.880
So, and I want to push it.

00:21:46.940 --> 00:21:51.880
But the other thing I'll do is sit there
and delete every whatsapp message I

00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:58.280
have and try to not text anyone first
and it's a test to see what friends I

00:21:58.290 --> 00:22:02.860
actually have and then I wait and as I'm
waiting sometimes I'll start to feel a bit

00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:08.330
anxious but again it's not, it's not the
level of intensity of when I'm sleeping

00:22:08.330 --> 00:22:10.580
with someone it gets really ramped up.

00:22:10.850 --> 00:22:13.320
Sam: And of course I've psychoanalyzed
you a lot on this show and I'm

00:22:13.380 --> 00:22:14.880
gonna do it again because I love it.

00:22:16.250 --> 00:22:24.425
We've talked about this before that
The dominant focus for your, where

00:22:24.425 --> 00:22:27.825
you're putting your personal energy
and like a lot of thought going into

00:22:28.135 --> 00:22:31.995
romantic relationships, which I won't
criticize you for, but it is maybe a

00:22:31.995 --> 00:22:36.345
little bit outsized and the expectations
that you have on those are higher than

00:22:36.345 --> 00:22:40.645
they are on friendships and, and your
friend provided a very useful idea

00:22:40.645 --> 00:22:45.075
about, you know, looking for the magic
vagina and so on I think that one is,

00:22:45.215 --> 00:22:46.785
is adjacent to all of this, right?

00:22:46.885 --> 00:22:49.715
and we talked previously about
relationships with parents.

00:22:49.715 --> 00:22:53.306
We've gone into that on and other
episodes of this show and really

00:22:53.306 --> 00:22:58.946
gotten into some interesting territory,
including a recent ish show that I

00:22:58.956 --> 00:23:02.836
felt was one of our finest, where we
were really exploring that crossover

00:23:02.836 --> 00:23:05.866
between the parental relationship and
the intimate partnerships later in life

00:23:06.516 --> 00:23:11.826
and recognizing that For example, we've
all had problematic childhoods and

00:23:11.916 --> 00:23:13.546
not just run of the mill stuff either.

00:23:13.743 --> 00:23:16.533
I think we've all, we can all really
nail our colours to the mask and

00:23:16.533 --> 00:23:19.313
say we all had quite difficult
childhoods,  compared to the average.

00:23:19.773 --> 00:23:20.703
Uh, I,

00:23:20.703 --> 00:23:21.483
Joe: I, I don't identify as that.

00:23:21.483 --> 00:23:23.753
And now we're not I, I
agree that both of you have.

00:23:23.793 --> 00:23:24.853
I, I can't really say that.

00:23:24.853 --> 00:23:26.283
Sam: And we're not claiming
victim status here.

00:23:26.303 --> 00:23:27.613
The purpose of this statement, Joe, is Uh,

00:23:27.663 --> 00:23:30.803
Joe: I just think you two have much
more dramatic stories, actually,

00:23:30.803 --> 00:23:31.853
about your childhoods than I do.

00:23:31.863 --> 00:23:32.553
Yeah, but it's, it doesn't

00:23:32.553 --> 00:23:33.661
Sam: It doesn't matter.

00:23:33.661 --> 00:23:35.506
They're picturesque, but they're not.

00:23:35.506 --> 00:23:36.980
Ali: Yeah, what it's had on you.

00:23:36.980 --> 00:23:39.953
Joe: I had things happen to me that
another kid would be fine with.

00:23:40.343 --> 00:23:41.723
But it might have

00:23:41.723 --> 00:23:46.363
You could say being sent to a
military Hare Krishna boarding

00:23:46.363 --> 00:23:47.713
school would be fine for some kids.

00:23:47.713 --> 00:23:49.493
It probably would be, you know.

00:23:50.313 --> 00:23:53.165
The horrific things that happened
to Ali would be not okay for anyone.

00:23:53.165 --> 00:23:54.293
Not good for anyone, yeah.

00:23:54.508 --> 00:23:57.518
Me is very subtle kind of stuff, really.

00:23:57.528 --> 00:23:58.968
But I've been thinking
back on some of those.

00:23:58.968 --> 00:24:01.258
I don't, I just want to pick
you up on that because I don't

00:24:01.258 --> 00:24:04.248
strongly identify as someone who
had a dramatically bad childhood.

00:24:04.248 --> 00:24:04.478
All right.

00:24:04.518 --> 00:24:07.788
Well, certainly I came
into adulthood lacking some

00:24:07.808 --> 00:24:10.828
fundamental sense of security.

00:24:11.038 --> 00:24:12.128
Sam: So we're going to agree on that.

00:24:12.148 --> 00:24:12.418
Yeah.

00:24:12.418 --> 00:24:16.548
And, and, and that's all we really
need to proceed with what I'm going

00:24:16.568 --> 00:24:19.088
for here, which is to recognize that.

00:24:19.883 --> 00:24:22.853
I can think of so many stories you've
told me, not just about childhood, but the

00:24:22.853 --> 00:24:26.703
teenage years, the twenties and thirties,
where there were times when I think you

00:24:26.703 --> 00:24:30.563
felt completely alone and that there
was no one you could really count on.

00:24:31.193 --> 00:24:33.143
And that's what we're talking about here.

00:24:33.523 --> 00:24:35.463
That's what secure
attachment boils down to.

00:24:35.893 --> 00:24:39.863
Feeling that you, it's not
that someone is there for me.

00:24:40.403 --> 00:24:41.263
That's not quite it.

00:24:41.373 --> 00:24:47.523
It's I am capable of creating and
sustaining relationships where this

00:24:47.573 --> 00:24:55.149
need can be met and I can meet it for
others and I want to meet this need for

00:24:55.219 --> 00:24:59.389
others as much as I want it met for me.

00:25:00.339 --> 00:25:05.405
So this is about not I will find
the person that will give me

00:25:05.415 --> 00:25:08.755
security, it's I will be the person.

00:25:09.150 --> 00:25:12.710
Who will make choices that
will move me towards security.

00:25:13.550 --> 00:25:16.340
And I've just met this
person, they're awesome.

00:25:16.340 --> 00:25:17.250
We cooked dinner together.

00:25:17.250 --> 00:25:18.170
It was such a vibe.

00:25:18.950 --> 00:25:26.010
I'm picturing our future now, slow
down, be in the moment and remember that

00:25:26.020 --> 00:25:33.370
you're still in the driver's seat and you
know, everyone here has various ways of

00:25:33.370 --> 00:25:34.970
getting out of the driver's seat, right?

00:25:34.970 --> 00:25:35.590
I'm an expert.

00:25:35.590 --> 00:25:35.760
That's it.

00:25:36.475 --> 00:25:38.025
You know, Ali's into astrology.

00:25:38.025 --> 00:25:39.615
I'm into it too, to a degree.

00:25:39.915 --> 00:25:40.615
I enjoy it.

00:25:40.835 --> 00:25:40.995
Ali: Yeah.

00:25:41.445 --> 00:25:42.105
I love it.

00:25:42.105 --> 00:25:42.565
I love it.

00:25:42.565 --> 00:25:44.725
It's middle class white woman.

00:25:44.725 --> 00:25:45.865
It's like my culture.

00:25:45.915 --> 00:25:49.645
Sam: And Joe sneers at astrology
meanwhile, but looks for signs,

00:25:49.735 --> 00:25:52.475
which is, you know, the same bloody
thing, if you want my opinion.

00:25:52.475 --> 00:25:57.445
And me, I look for signs,
uh, oracles of all kinds.

00:25:57.445 --> 00:25:57.945
Joe: I don't know.

00:25:58.035 --> 00:25:59.425
No, I disagree with that too.

00:25:59.425 --> 00:26:02.470
I would say I get signs
whether I want them or not.

00:26:02.510 --> 00:26:04.370
Sam: Oh, well, that is an
interesting take, actually.

00:26:04.370 --> 00:26:05.260
And that is

00:26:05.570 --> 00:26:07.980
Joe: what I don't believe
in is coincidences.

00:26:08.040 --> 00:26:09.270
Sam: I know that feeling.

00:26:09.360 --> 00:26:12.690
Joe: And that is anyway,
that's a side track.

00:26:12.730 --> 00:26:16.800
I want to know, Sam, how Disorganized
attachment, which is what you've

00:26:17.090 --> 00:26:19.320
described, how it's played out.

00:26:19.340 --> 00:26:21.340
Well, you can go back to your
dating life or you can talk

00:26:21.350 --> 00:26:22.250
about your married life or both.

00:26:22.250 --> 00:26:24.350
Sam: I'm happy to, whatever
you're interested in.

00:26:24.380 --> 00:26:28.940
Joe: I think because the only value
of this podcast is, is our personal

00:26:28.940 --> 00:26:32.350
experience, because someone could
listen to experts like psychologists

00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:36.340
talk about attachment styles,
but what's your experience with

00:26:36.340 --> 00:26:37.000
your attachment?

00:26:37.410 --> 00:26:40.560
Sam: Yeah, well, connecting it to personal
experience is critical to help it.

00:26:40.580 --> 00:26:40.720
We're

00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:43.420
Joe: just putting, like, what
you've learned to one side, like,

00:26:43.450 --> 00:26:44.850
uh, academically to one side.

00:26:44.850 --> 00:26:48.530
What's your personal felt
experience of attachment stuff?

00:26:48.580 --> 00:26:51.590
Sam: Well, the second I started
learning about it, I was like,

00:26:51.600 --> 00:26:53.000
this is very interesting.

00:26:54.005 --> 00:26:56.045
, It was making a lot of sense.

00:26:56.065 --> 00:26:59.005
It was resonating deeply
with personal experience.

00:26:59.075 --> 00:27:05.345
To me, like, learning stuff and like that
the chemistry of Ooh, this is interesting.

00:27:05.585 --> 00:27:12.310
It's always been pretty much identical to
Ooh, this is , triggering feelings of I'm

00:27:12.310 --> 00:27:15.710
interested because it relates to personal
experience like anyone on the spectrum

00:27:15.710 --> 00:27:19.260
can tell you like it's it's all about it's
all about our special interests all the

00:27:19.260 --> 00:27:24.131
time but and so this has become a special
interest but It's not for no reason.

00:27:24.131 --> 00:27:26.451
It's resonating with lived
experience very deeply.

00:27:26.911 --> 00:27:29.031
And that's kind of what I was trying
to get at before with getting out

00:27:29.031 --> 00:27:31.601
of the driver's seat and we've
all, we all find ways to do that.

00:27:31.891 --> 00:27:35.331
And therapy is just all about getting back
in the driver's seat and taking control of

00:27:35.411 --> 00:27:37.631
what you can and should take control of.

00:27:38.341 --> 00:27:41.061
Ali: I would so much rather
tell my psychologist, it's like

00:27:41.061 --> 00:27:43.471
I'm a Sagittarius and it's not
because I have mental illness.

00:27:43.491 --> 00:27:44.141
Yeah, exactly.

00:27:45.121 --> 00:27:45.801
Exactly.

00:27:45.861 --> 00:27:50.086
Sam: And I would rather exasperate mine by
banging on about stuff that doesn't relate

00:27:50.096 --> 00:27:52.716
to what I can control and need to control.

00:27:53.056 --> 00:27:55.796
And so attachment theory has
really given me some powerful

00:27:55.796 --> 00:28:00.066
clues about what I actually have a
responsibility to be doing differently,

00:28:00.356 --> 00:28:01.966
like to myself and for others.

00:28:02.656 --> 00:28:08.975
So to childhood, boarding school was and
I'm not getting out the string section

00:28:08.975 --> 00:28:12.105
here to like, I'm not panning for pity.

00:28:12.355 --> 00:28:13.875
It's just, yeah.

00:28:14.425 --> 00:28:20.385
It's just a fact that, um, you know, there
was a room full of children there who were

00:28:20.605 --> 00:28:22.415
away from their parents at a young age.

00:28:22.817 --> 00:28:25.667
Well, I think I was about six, and
there were kids there who may have been

00:28:25.667 --> 00:28:30.247
younger and some who were older, and
everyone in that dormitory was crying

00:28:30.277 --> 00:28:35.487
the first night, and most of those
kids wet the bed, and, you know, little

00:28:35.487 --> 00:28:41.502
by little, uh, people, young people,
children, the children in that room,

00:28:42.272 --> 00:28:46.482
one by one they stopped crying, and one
by one they stopped wetting the bed.

00:28:46.482 --> 00:28:50.712
And one by one they Adjusted to
this new reality because that's, you

00:28:50.712 --> 00:28:52.122
know, children are very adaptable.

00:28:52.607 --> 00:28:54.417
Now here's where attachment comes in.

00:28:54.727 --> 00:29:00.037
You learn strategies based on
the circumstances you encountered

00:29:01.667 --> 00:29:07.297
and you learn things like who
in this situation can I count

00:29:07.317 --> 00:29:09.927
on and how can I get attention?

00:29:10.137 --> 00:29:11.057
How can I get?

00:29:12.252 --> 00:29:13.542
Care from adults.

00:29:13.932 --> 00:29:15.942
How can I attract nurturance?

00:29:15.972 --> 00:29:20.042
And these aren't the, like, conscious
questions you're asking yourself, but,

00:29:20.052 --> 00:29:21.882
you know, years later you go, Oh, I see.

00:29:22.992 --> 00:29:29.242
And maybe if, well, for example, you
can, just classic childhood strategies,

00:29:29.242 --> 00:29:30.842
I did all of these, you can act out.

00:29:31.194 --> 00:29:34.144
That'll get your attention from adults
and caregivers, you can punch another

00:29:34.144 --> 00:29:39.584
kid, you can swear, you can do, get
into a fight with your siblings, you

00:29:39.604 --> 00:29:44.689
can, steal stuff and stash it and try to
create a feeling of security that way.

00:29:44.809 --> 00:29:45.689
That's something I did.

00:29:46.119 --> 00:29:51.130
You can, try and be the perfect child
and attract, um, You know, approval from

00:29:51.130 --> 00:29:54.370
adults that way, you know, it's like,
Oh, let's figure out whatever the game

00:29:54.370 --> 00:29:55.880
is here that we're meant to be playing.

00:29:56.130 --> 00:29:56.760
Let's play it.

00:29:56.800 --> 00:29:57.540
Let's win it.

00:29:57.820 --> 00:29:59.370
Ali: That's um, very related.

00:30:00.380 --> 00:30:01.010
That one's hitting.

00:30:01.010 --> 00:30:01.940
That one's hitting.

00:30:02.030 --> 00:30:02.290
Sam: Yep.

00:30:02.410 --> 00:30:04.440
I'm going to be the model
student or whatever it is,

00:30:04.490 --> 00:30:06.410
whatever these fucking hoops are.

00:30:07.130 --> 00:30:07.610
Okay.

00:30:07.650 --> 00:30:08.270
Hoops is it.

00:30:08.290 --> 00:30:08.580
Great.

00:30:08.630 --> 00:30:09.410
Let's jump through them.

00:30:10.020 --> 00:30:14.483
And you know, so for, for obviously
for me, it was religion And there

00:30:14.483 --> 00:30:15.863
are ways to excel here in this.

00:30:15.950 --> 00:30:17.510
We need to learn, we
need to know scripture.

00:30:17.560 --> 00:30:17.950
Okay.

00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:18.240
All right.

00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:22.510
Well, I will fucking learn the ass
off this scripture and I'll, I'll be

00:30:22.510 --> 00:30:25.690
able to recite slabs of it to adults
and I'll impress the shit out of them.

00:30:25.700 --> 00:30:27.440
Now, so that's post hoc rationalization.

00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:28.920
I didn't know what I was doing as a child.

00:30:28.930 --> 00:30:35.000
What I was doing was being drawn
to the things that got approval

00:30:35.010 --> 00:30:38.080
from adults because then there was
a chance that with that approval,

00:30:38.090 --> 00:30:40.790
there might be some nurturing, there
might be some fucking parenting.

00:30:40.872 --> 00:30:44.293
because, you know, I was well
bonded to my primary carer, from

00:30:44.293 --> 00:30:49.823
birth through to age six and then
separation from the primary carer.

00:30:50.003 --> 00:30:51.333
So it's a complex picture.

00:30:51.363 --> 00:30:56.333
It wasn't like horrible abuse and
neglect in the home, no, not at all.

00:30:56.343 --> 00:30:58.193
They did a good job when I was there.

00:30:58.883 --> 00:31:02.043
They were quite good parents,
like by objective standards.

00:31:02.253 --> 00:31:05.673
When I was in the home, I received
the right kind of boundaries, I

00:31:05.673 --> 00:31:06.903
got the right kind of nurturing.

00:31:06.980 --> 00:31:10.820
I got listened to most of the time,
I didn't get dismissed constantly.

00:31:10.820 --> 00:31:13.170
These are classic things that
cause attachment issues, by the

00:31:13.170 --> 00:31:14.360
way, that's why I'm listing them.

00:31:14.487 --> 00:31:18.747
I got a degree of help regulating my
emotions and like, you know, recovering

00:31:18.747 --> 00:31:20.167
from tantrums and things like that.

00:31:21.067 --> 00:31:25.607
And it was not super difficult to win
their approval or anything like that.

00:31:25.815 --> 00:31:26.585
but you know.

00:31:26.748 --> 00:31:30.088
There were still like mistakes they made
within the normal course of parenting

00:31:30.088 --> 00:31:34.808
within the house, but like all of that by
itself might have led to a mild, some mild

00:31:34.808 --> 00:31:36.958
attachment issues, nothing too serious.

00:31:37.018 --> 00:31:42.133
Their own relationship was very
problematic, but it also had good seasons.

00:31:42.143 --> 00:31:45.763
So they, you know, they were able to work
through their issues as a couple as well.

00:31:45.793 --> 00:31:48.443
So again, that's another
very healthy thing to see.

00:31:48.633 --> 00:31:52.813
So there were, and I saw people,
Two people who were struggling

00:31:52.813 --> 00:31:56.313
with a lot of things, but were
able to give each other support and

00:31:56.313 --> 00:31:57.983
really stood by each other as well.

00:31:58.283 --> 00:32:03.121
So like I had some good, some good role
modeling in there, in amongst the normal

00:32:03.121 --> 00:32:06.961
sort of challenges of life and childhood,
but the boarding school stuff was really

00:32:06.961 --> 00:32:10.751
going to throw a spanner in the works, no
matter how good a job they did at home.

00:32:10.770 --> 00:32:15.252
Because it's a very unnatural situation
in many respects and quite natural in

00:32:15.252 --> 00:32:18.692
other ways because you make a community
with your peers and you do bond really

00:32:18.692 --> 00:32:23.830
well with the other children and so like
meeting other people and getting, learning

00:32:23.830 --> 00:32:27.390
to get along well with them quickly has
never been too much of a problem for me.

00:32:27.482 --> 00:32:29.965
but how's this manifested in adult life?

00:32:30.195 --> 00:32:34.257
Well, one of the things that happened
is I would be quite  comfortable

00:32:34.257 --> 00:32:37.496
in institutional settings where the
expectations were clear and where

00:32:37.496 --> 00:32:41.486
the goals of the game were clear
and how to win was clear, how to

00:32:41.486 --> 00:32:42.946
be the best at whatever was clear.

00:32:42.946 --> 00:32:46.457
And then in circumstances where
it was a bit unclear or ambiguous

00:32:46.457 --> 00:32:47.827
or whatever, struggled greatly.

00:32:47.908 --> 00:32:48.858
unfortunately though.

00:32:49.051 --> 00:32:50.811
You can lose yourself in this process.

00:32:50.861 --> 00:32:54.831
Okay, so my job here is to  be the
model, whatever it is, and then

00:32:54.831 --> 00:32:56.161
attract the approval of others.

00:32:56.161 --> 00:32:57.951
And this is how I will
get secure attachment.

00:32:57.971 --> 00:33:00.361
And this is not just romantic.

00:33:00.647 --> 00:33:04.497
In fact, I think for a long time, the
area I struggled, with the most was

00:33:04.527 --> 00:33:08.243
actually looking for those parental
figures and  mentors and people like

00:33:08.243 --> 00:33:10.153
that and actually would find them.

00:33:10.703 --> 00:33:15.982
But it became about pleasing them
and not about learning through this

00:33:16.122 --> 00:33:17.592
relationship what I needed to learn.

00:33:17.612 --> 00:33:20.342
And, but some of those people
were quite good at steering me.

00:33:20.442 --> 00:33:22.872
A lot of people were steering
me towards this constantly.

00:33:23.222 --> 00:33:26.776
The wise people that did emerge were
often telling me things like in my late

00:33:26.776 --> 00:33:30.056
teens, early twenties, were telling
me things like, but what do you want?

00:33:30.056 --> 00:33:32.376
And I didn't know how
to answer that question.

00:33:32.416 --> 00:33:33.876
Like who are you?

00:33:34.092 --> 00:33:35.136
And I'm like, I don't know.

00:33:37.051 --> 00:33:41.414
And I probably had some clever answer
like, well, , no one is any one

00:33:41.414 --> 00:33:45.944
thing and, you know, I am whatever
the situation, you know, we're

00:33:45.944 --> 00:33:49.574
all different people in different
contexts and, you know, well actually

00:33:49.624 --> 00:33:51.214
Joe: Is this why you
spent 10 years at uni?

00:33:51.879 --> 00:33:59.059
Sam: Yeah, yep, yep, yes, that and being
disorganized and not liking to write

00:33:59.059 --> 00:34:03.009
essays, yeah, but yeah no no that's
right uni was a nice safe environment in

00:34:03.009 --> 00:34:04.269
many ways absolutely bit of a shelter.

00:34:04.269 --> 00:34:08.589
Joe: Well you said you knew how to perform
in an institutional environment, and

00:34:08.589 --> 00:34:11.079
Sam: how to win the approval Adults.

00:34:11.149 --> 00:34:11.719
Joe: Yeah, I'm sure

00:34:11.719 --> 00:34:13.669
your lecturers loved you, but
then were like, Sam, you've

00:34:13.699 --> 00:34:14.659
got to get that essay in.

00:34:14.659 --> 00:34:15.499
Sam: Oh, it would drive them insane.

00:34:15.529 --> 00:34:15.979
Yeah.

00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:18.289
Joe: Like, I'd love to pass
you, mate, but like, you've

00:34:18.299 --> 00:34:19.539
really got to write something.

00:34:19.729 --> 00:34:22.209
Like, you know this stuff better
than everyone else in the class,

00:34:22.209 --> 00:34:22.979
but you haven't written it.

00:34:22.989 --> 00:34:23.929
Sam: You haven't written a damn word.

00:34:24.299 --> 00:34:25.239
What's the matter with you?

00:34:25.239 --> 00:34:25.479
Yeah.

00:34:25.509 --> 00:34:27.959
And, and no, I can't make
different rules for you.

00:34:28.419 --> 00:34:28.669
Yeah.

00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:30.909
So this is one of the, this
is one of the areas where it.

00:34:30.909 --> 00:34:33.819
Joe: But you haven't gotten into
any romantic relationships yet.

00:34:33.889 --> 00:34:35.699
Sam: Well, I wanted to
demonstrate that attachment.

00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:39.689
It can be problematic and it can
affect all manner of relationships.

00:34:40.439 --> 00:34:40.659
Yeah.

00:34:40.749 --> 00:34:41.139
Yeah.

00:34:41.559 --> 00:34:41.879
Yeah.

00:34:41.879 --> 00:34:42.409
Go on Ali.

00:34:42.469 --> 00:34:47.409
Ali: I was going to say, like in
the context of my childhood and so

00:34:47.429 --> 00:34:52.809
having an autistic mother, which I
wish, I think who struggled to attach

00:34:52.969 --> 00:34:54.839
to us for a variety of reasons.

00:34:54.939 --> 00:34:56.249
Joe: And she didn't know she was autistic.

00:34:56.249 --> 00:34:57.229
Ali: Didn't know she was autistic.

00:34:57.509 --> 00:34:58.969
And then having a father.

00:34:59.554 --> 00:35:01.714
So that, I suppose, was
what made me anxious.

00:35:01.734 --> 00:35:04.474
And then having a father who was
quite volatile, who had his own

00:35:04.474 --> 00:35:08.211
mental health struggles, again, he
also didn't know, so it was best to

00:35:08.211 --> 00:35:10.341
avoid lest you trigger something.

00:35:10.361 --> 00:35:16.811
And what, like, as an adult, outside of a
romantic context, it has created, a hyper

00:35:16.811 --> 00:35:18.991
independence from a really young age.

00:35:19.251 --> 00:35:23.261
So it, like, I, I, Completely related
to, yeah, like, you know, wanting

00:35:23.751 --> 00:35:26.461
other ways of seeking approval or
getting attention and things like that.

00:35:26.461 --> 00:35:30.761
But it also very much came back to,
I cannot rely on anyone but myself.

00:35:31.051 --> 00:35:37.111
And I, that is something I still
really struggle to reach out and ask

00:35:37.111 --> 00:35:38.654
for help of the people I care about.

00:35:38.654 --> 00:35:41.174
Like, if it, like, you know, it's, I
have no issue, you know, say calling a

00:35:41.174 --> 00:35:44.004
doctor and saying like, I'm, you know,
Um, this is the problem why I'm not coping

00:35:44.104 --> 00:35:47.374
with it, but I'm going to do it myself.

00:35:47.384 --> 00:35:48.234
I'm going to manage it.

00:35:48.294 --> 00:35:48.874
I'm yeah.

00:35:48.934 --> 00:35:49.664
And it's the same.

00:35:50.104 --> 00:35:54.574
And that is with a lot of things,
but that's, it's so rooted in

00:35:54.594 --> 00:35:57.704
like, yeah, that it doesn't just
affect romantic relationships.

00:35:57.704 --> 00:36:01.494
Sam: To be approved of by others,
which I must have in order to,

00:36:01.834 --> 00:36:03.834
for them to want to be around me.

00:36:03.924 --> 00:36:07.704
So I ended up with this quite one
dimensional idea of what it took to

00:36:08.024 --> 00:36:11.334
Have the approval of others that I
have to be, I have to be perfect.

00:36:11.344 --> 00:36:12.474
I have to be very consistent.

00:36:12.474 --> 00:36:13.894
I can't, I can't show weakness.

00:36:14.324 --> 00:36:17.164
Other people can't handle my
true feelings that therefore

00:36:17.164 --> 00:36:18.374
I have to manage them myself.

00:36:18.764 --> 00:36:20.114
And well, it's true.

00:36:20.114 --> 00:36:22.314
Sometimes you do have to manage your
own feelings and that's actually

00:36:22.314 --> 00:36:26.194
your responsibility, but, but
if your whole approach becomes,

00:36:26.694 --> 00:36:30.104
let's hide all the undesirable
things about myself, um, because.

00:36:31.134 --> 00:36:32.954
They are a threat to attachment.

00:36:33.194 --> 00:36:35.664
Ali: Yeah, you become avoidant and
you're like, and it's almost like, I'm

00:36:35.664 --> 00:36:37.934
going to spare this person my chaos.

00:36:37.964 --> 00:36:41.634
I'm going to spare this person
my volatility or whatever it is.

00:36:42.264 --> 00:36:43.914
I've got to work it out myself.

00:36:43.914 --> 00:36:45.504
So yeah, so you either become avoidant.

00:36:45.631 --> 00:36:48.161
And, and that's how it, yeah,
it can manifest in some ways.

00:36:48.161 --> 00:36:49.121
It's, it's very, yeah.

00:36:49.131 --> 00:36:49.251
Well,

00:36:49.251 --> 00:36:52.081
Sam: that's how the disorder, the
disordered style comes in or the

00:36:52.081 --> 00:36:56.241
disorganized attachment because in
both of our cases, because there were,

00:36:56.341 --> 00:37:01.451
there were reasons to use clinging
approval seeking type strategies.

00:37:01.451 --> 00:37:04.941
And there were also reasons to use
these avoidant type strategies.

00:37:04.971 --> 00:37:08.290
And because of course in the, because
we're experiencing it on both ends of

00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:14.380
it, the, the The strong feelings of the
parent that we can't contain or deal

00:37:14.380 --> 00:37:19.770
with, and Also, I'm going to guess in
your case as well, confided in a little

00:37:19.770 --> 00:37:21.460
too much, maybe by adults as well.

00:37:21.520 --> 00:37:21.690
Ali: Yep.

00:37:22.020 --> 00:37:24.740
Sam: Because of the, you know,
what appeared to be the maturity

00:37:24.790 --> 00:37:26.380
of that, you know, the ASD team.

00:37:26.450 --> 00:37:26.720
Yes.

00:37:27.490 --> 00:37:29.720
And you know, knowing
They're still doing that.

00:37:29.750 --> 00:37:30.940
Yeah, still doing that.

00:37:31.930 --> 00:37:33.270
Being privy to things we
really shouldn't be doing.

00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:33.920
Oh yeah, like,

00:37:33.960 --> 00:37:38.550
Ali: yeah, like, like last weekend,
my sister and I, like, having to

00:37:38.550 --> 00:37:42.080
put really clear boundaries in
with my parents, it's like, Nope,

00:37:42.120 --> 00:37:44.235
this is, No, we're not doing this.

00:37:44.235 --> 00:37:44.655
We're still,

00:37:44.665 --> 00:37:44.945
yeah.

00:37:45.395 --> 00:37:46.095
Yeah, that's right.

00:37:46.105 --> 00:37:49.595
And then on the other side, Oh,
my strong feelings here can't

00:37:49.595 --> 00:37:50.845
be contained by these people.

00:37:50.895 --> 00:37:53.515
These people do not welcome
these strong feelings.

00:37:53.535 --> 00:37:54.075
Joe: So Sam,

00:37:54.095 --> 00:37:56.975
I don't want to let you off the
hook of romantic relationships.

00:37:56.975 --> 00:37:58.345
Sam: I'm saving the juicy bit for last.

00:37:58.345 --> 00:37:59.145
It's a tabloid.

00:37:59.165 --> 00:37:59.865
Joe: Come on, mate.

00:37:59.985 --> 00:38:01.845
Like, we want to be salacious.

00:38:01.895 --> 00:38:05.374
We want to get into, it's hot and
steamy, it's the early noughties.

00:38:05.374 --> 00:38:05.700
Yeah.

00:38:05.850 --> 00:38:07.190
You're strolling down Brunswick Street.

00:38:08.370 --> 00:38:12.370
How is your, uh, attachment
stuff playing out?

00:38:12.550 --> 00:38:13.600
Sam: Yeah, actually.

00:38:14.090 --> 00:38:16.640
Oh man, I really want to talk
about the early noughties, but

00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:18.850
can I start in like, say, 95, 96?

00:38:19.080 --> 00:38:19.670
Joe: Sure.

00:38:19.750 --> 00:38:22.810
I just want to hear about how
attachment played out in romantic

00:38:23.080 --> 00:38:24.820
relationships across your life.

00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:27.930
Sam: Dude, that's the only thing that
matters to Joe, and this is the problem.

00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:30.710
Joe: Well, the parental friend stuff

00:38:30.710 --> 00:38:35.390
Sam: is all very well, but I
can't root my mum, you know?

00:38:35.390 --> 00:38:37.180
That's right.

00:38:37.180 --> 00:38:39.040
I mean, I could try, but it's not right.

00:38:39.770 --> 00:38:41.840
Joe: There's some rooting going
on, you know, otherwise they'll

00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:42.740
tune into another podcast.

00:38:42.770 --> 00:38:44.240
Sam: Hey, look, let's get the rooting out.

00:38:44.250 --> 00:38:47.761
So, let's say my first proper, my
first proper girlfriend, God bless her.

00:38:48.011 --> 00:38:54.111
I still think about her , in the sense
of like, Oh God, I was such Uh, I

00:38:54.111 --> 00:38:58.891
would have been a real nightmare, and
I'm so sorry, and I hope you're alive.

00:38:59.411 --> 00:39:03.201
Joe: That's where I'm at with, anyway,
shout out , if you're, oh my god,

00:39:03.431 --> 00:39:03.841
naming names!

00:39:04.631 --> 00:39:08.311
No, I'm not going to name second
names, but, I genuinely hope

00:39:08.311 --> 00:39:10.441
you're okay, because, uh, I was,

00:39:11.101 --> 00:39:11.701
Ali: you caused some damage,

00:39:12.311 --> 00:39:12.621
Joe: right.

00:39:12.651 --> 00:39:15.521
So what you're saying is by the
time you hit 16, you're fully

00:39:15.531 --> 00:39:17.571
primed to create attachment chaos,

00:39:17.701 --> 00:39:25.071
Sam: to absolutely leave havoc in
my way and, and not knowing why or

00:39:25.071 --> 00:39:29.057
meaning to at all and very much having
the best of intentions and constant,

00:39:29.157 --> 00:39:33.797
like the parents that these people
will like all had the same assessment,

00:39:33.797 --> 00:39:36.117
more or less that,  he's a good guy.

00:39:36.637 --> 00:39:37.277
Joe: Away you go.

00:39:37.487 --> 00:39:43.147
But what they didn't know, that,
well yeah, I am, uh, but I have

00:39:43.147 --> 00:39:47.417
feelings that I don't understand
and these get triggered when I feel

00:39:47.417 --> 00:39:52.887
close to people and they're about to
happen right now with your daughter.

00:39:52.897 --> 00:39:53.607
So sorry.

00:39:53.697 --> 00:39:53.967
Yeah.

00:39:53.997 --> 00:39:54.717
But I didn't know.

00:39:55.437 --> 00:39:58.117
No one had explained attachment
theory to me and this is how I really

00:39:58.117 --> 00:39:59.357
wanted to introduce this subject.

00:39:59.387 --> 00:40:02.627
Why the fuck did no one
explain this to me before now?

00:40:02.922 --> 00:40:03.182
Yeah.

00:40:03.222 --> 00:40:04.452
Like, God damn it.

00:40:04.592 --> 00:40:04.812
Ali: Yeah.

00:40:04.812 --> 00:40:05.602
Like it really is.

00:40:05.792 --> 00:40:10.492
It's only come across my radar in the
last five years in dating and that, yeah.

00:40:11.402 --> 00:40:15.222
But prior to that, it's like, Oh, that
would have been really useful information.

00:40:16.212 --> 00:40:17.592
God damn it.

00:40:17.592 --> 00:40:18.192
Yeah.

00:40:18.192 --> 00:40:21.252
Joe: It entered the zeitgeist,
at least in Melbourne.

00:40:21.502 --> 00:40:22.422
Oh, very much so.

00:40:22.492 --> 00:40:25.352
I don't know where else, but like
it entered the zeitgeist and then

00:40:25.352 --> 00:40:27.552
it explained a whole bunch of stuff.

00:40:27.582 --> 00:40:27.902
Yeah.

00:40:28.297 --> 00:40:30.837
But yeah, it has been around
since the fifties and sixties.

00:40:30.877 --> 00:40:31.537
Sam: Oh yeah, man.

00:40:31.537 --> 00:40:32.407
It's as old as the hills.

00:40:32.407 --> 00:40:37.057
But like, so that anyway, so the first
girlfriend, like she, absolutely nothing

00:40:37.057 --> 00:40:42.182
wrong with it, but I started getting
the avoids and I didn't know why.

00:40:42.192 --> 00:40:46.034
And I was, I was just like,
okay, what's happening here?

00:40:46.034 --> 00:40:50.114
I said this anxious sort of queasy
feeling like, and it wasn't all the

00:40:50.114 --> 00:40:54.779
time,  I was getting along really well,
you know, there was no problem with

00:40:54.779 --> 00:40:57.818
the physical attraction or anything
like that, but I wasn't going down a

00:40:57.818 --> 00:41:01.738
long list of, you know, things that
are wrong with you at first, right?

00:41:02.368 --> 00:41:04.298
but what I didn't know
until years later is.

00:41:04.488 --> 00:41:08.818
The second I felt like this
person's feelings now depended

00:41:08.818 --> 00:41:14.408
to a degree on me and what I did,
and that I had the capacity now.

00:41:15.088 --> 00:41:17.378
The door was open that I
could hurt this person.

00:41:18.118 --> 00:41:21.698
That feeling of having a responsibility
for someone else's feelings, that

00:41:21.758 --> 00:41:23.858
brought out the avoids very strongly.

00:41:23.868 --> 00:41:29.868
I want to be somewhere else now and
I don't want to continue seeing you.

00:41:30.288 --> 00:41:34.665
But I didn't know why and I didn't have
any way of explaining it to myself or to

00:41:34.665 --> 00:41:40.622
her and so I just kind of kept trying to
be in a relationship for a while until

00:41:40.622 --> 00:41:42.132
eventually I'm like, no, I can't do this.

00:41:42.902 --> 00:41:45.382
And she's just like, what have I done?

00:41:45.452 --> 00:41:47.192
You know, like it was all gone so well.

00:41:47.612 --> 00:41:48.962
And I'm like, I don't know.

00:41:49.702 --> 00:41:50.432
I just don't know.

00:41:50.462 --> 00:41:53.845
Like I just , all of a sudden I was
just like, I can't, I can't, I can't.

00:41:54.575 --> 00:41:56.575
And it was experienced.

00:41:56.595 --> 00:42:00.715
So it's experienced differently sometimes,
but there will tend to be anxiety.

00:42:01.185 --> 00:42:03.785
So this is one of the misconceptions
about the avoidant style.

00:42:04.194 --> 00:42:06.332
That they don't experience anxiety.

00:42:06.612 --> 00:42:09.122
It's all there in the name,
anxious attachment, right?

00:42:09.438 --> 00:42:13.068
Well, some people have suggested renaming
these things, but you know, too late now.

00:42:14.258 --> 00:42:18.168
But the avoidant type will often
experience a lot of anxiety.

00:42:18.178 --> 00:42:20.308
Ali: Well, the avoidant
behavior is rooted in anxiety.

00:42:20.318 --> 00:42:22.568
Sam: It's getting away
from the source of anxiety.

00:42:22.618 --> 00:42:22.938
Yeah.

00:42:23.048 --> 00:42:27.418
Now the clinging style, which I kind of
think of it more, you know, the anxious

00:42:27.418 --> 00:42:30.518
style, which can also lead to avoidant
behavior, because that might be a better

00:42:30.518 --> 00:42:32.318
strategy than trying to get the person.

00:42:32.358 --> 00:42:32.548
Yeah.

00:42:32.788 --> 00:42:36.858
It's like, Oh, Oh, I must, they
must, they must, they must, I now

00:42:36.858 --> 00:42:38.578
depend on them and what they do.

00:42:38.938 --> 00:42:40.148
And the avoidant is like.

00:42:40.448 --> 00:42:42.588
Oh God, they now depend
on me and what I do.

00:42:42.588 --> 00:42:43.808
I can't handle this.

00:42:43.808 --> 00:42:44.808
This is making me anxious.

00:42:45.538 --> 00:42:46.288
And yeah,

00:42:46.318 --> 00:42:48.558
Joe: so I've had a
couple of those classic.

00:42:48.943 --> 00:42:53.453
Like, just clinically, what you described,
classic, like, the first relationship

00:42:53.493 --> 00:42:57.883
after the relationship with the mother
of my children was like, must be like,

00:42:57.943 --> 00:43:03.543
you could study it as a textbook case
of avoidant and an anxious, attached

00:43:03.543 --> 00:43:05.353
person trying to have a relationship.

00:43:06.153 --> 00:43:12.603
And, uh, and in the end, this is so,
sounds so teenage, but at the six month

00:43:12.623 --> 00:43:18.048
mark, I It got to a point where I wanted
her, I wanted to be able to call her my

00:43:18.048 --> 00:43:23.278
girlfriend and she did not, this is two
people in their late thirties, she did

00:43:23.278 --> 00:43:27.838
not want to be called a girlfriend, but
was happy to continue the monogamous

00:43:27.838 --> 00:43:29.518
relationship we were already having.

00:43:30.768 --> 00:43:35.968
And it, it seems so important
to me that I'd be able to say to

00:43:35.968 --> 00:43:37.468
people that I have a girlfriend

00:43:40.493 --> 00:43:41.233
I ended it.

00:43:42.723 --> 00:43:46.883
So, I mean, that's where that particular
dance, but yeah, the avoidance, but I

00:43:46.883 --> 00:43:51.623
remember I've kept it in my phone, an
email she sent from the avoidant point of

00:43:51.623 --> 00:43:56.693
view, and it clearly, which surprised me
because she was ice cold the entire time.

00:43:57.623 --> 00:44:01.113
It surprised me how much turmoil
she'd been through trying to

00:44:01.113 --> 00:44:03.253
sort of give me what I needed.

00:44:04.233 --> 00:44:07.633
And in the end, she'd had to
say "I'm not in love with you."

00:44:07.693 --> 00:44:10.883
That was about a month before the,
you know, end of the relationship.

00:44:10.923 --> 00:44:11.253
Yeah.

00:44:11.923 --> 00:44:18.573
And, yeah, like, that's, that was a
great moment because I started to feel

00:44:18.573 --> 00:44:24.053
a feeling, pretended I was okay, got
up and walked outside and then felt

00:44:24.053 --> 00:44:28.863
this incredible, like, like, stomach
ripping out kind of feeling, right?

00:44:28.873 --> 00:44:29.303
Yeah.

00:44:29.713 --> 00:44:32.123
was interesting, like, that I
could, certainly wasn't going

00:44:32.123 --> 00:44:33.493
to show her that, you know?

00:44:33.563 --> 00:44:33.963
Mm.

00:44:33.963 --> 00:44:34.033
Mm.

00:44:34.163 --> 00:44:39.313
so I mean, that was what, that was, and
that's before that I'd had a secure long

00:44:39.313 --> 00:44:41.453
term relationship and two children, right?

00:44:41.993 --> 00:44:44.943
So I know that I'm personally,
I don't know about you two, but

00:44:44.953 --> 00:44:46.853
I'm capable of secure attachment.

00:44:47.153 --> 00:44:50.923
Maybe Sam, you've found it in your
marriage at times, at times, and

00:44:50.953 --> 00:44:54.093
maybe it sounds like you found it
in the relationship with the father,

00:44:54.093 --> 00:44:55.973
with your father of your children.

00:44:56.593 --> 00:45:02.008
I mean, I guess to speed things up a
bit, Sam, can you give me like a, Just a

00:45:02.418 --> 00:45:08.308
pattern from through to your wife, that
period of being single, you know, being

00:45:08.308 --> 00:45:11.118
single or having shorter relationships.

00:45:11.138 --> 00:45:15.538
What was the pattern that when you
look back, you see, just attachment

00:45:15.538 --> 00:45:19.988
wise, what do you see like in concrete
terms that someone who knows nothing

00:45:19.998 --> 00:45:21.698
about attachment could understand?

00:45:23.148 --> 00:45:28.143
Sam: Well,  it's pretty clear looking
back over it that You know, it's perhaps

00:45:28.143 --> 00:45:32.967
less interesting and salacious than it
should be, but basically not having any

00:45:32.977 --> 00:45:38.147
difficulty meeting and forming initial
attachment with friends and intimate

00:45:38.317 --> 00:45:41.087
partners and meeting appropriate people.

00:45:41.742 --> 00:45:41.762
Um,

00:45:41.782 --> 00:45:46.079
to have friends and intimate relationships
with, by and large, choosing the right

00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:49.849
kind of people, not just for me, but in
general, like just by objective standards,

00:45:50.129 --> 00:45:55.769
people themselves fairly capable of secure
attachment, not, not too problematic

00:45:55.779 --> 00:45:57.939
in, you know, any kind of obvious way.

00:45:58.008 --> 00:46:01.616
even with all the exasperating shit
I put them through, most of them were

00:46:01.616 --> 00:46:03.246
still actually fairly easy to be around.

00:46:03.399 --> 00:46:08.199
and just of hitting within
three to six to 12 months.

00:46:08.894 --> 00:46:13.604
A major,  anxiety and panic and revulsion
and a desire to be somewhere else.

00:46:13.809 --> 00:46:18.247
these are people who were like, you
know, attractive intellectually.

00:46:18.429 --> 00:46:23.059
stylish, they had pursuits and in desire
for an independent existence, they

00:46:23.059 --> 00:46:28.109
weren't smothering me, they weren't
like, well, not a great deal anyway,

00:46:28.109 --> 00:46:32.985
you know, and they weren't, placing a
sort of unmeetable expectations on me,

00:46:33.035 --> 00:46:37.745
for emotional nurturance, they weren't
like doing massive amounts of trauma

00:46:37.745 --> 00:46:41.495
dumping or telling me endless stories
about friend problems or, or quite

00:46:41.495 --> 00:46:44.605
capable of accepting just the, okay,
okay, I think I've heard enough about.

00:46:45.035 --> 00:46:48.585
All that, you know, whatever, could
kind of deal with me pretty well.

00:46:49.145 --> 00:46:51.605
But sooner or later, I'd be like, yuck.

00:46:51.865 --> 00:46:52.095
Yeah.

00:46:52.095 --> 00:46:52.795
But all right.

00:46:52.925 --> 00:46:55.048
So if you go back, I've got to go

00:46:55.048 --> 00:47:00.305
Joe: before you go back to say,
yeah, like existentialism, if

00:47:00.305 --> 00:47:03.835
you're looking at it through that
lens instead of attachment, or

00:47:03.885 --> 00:47:05.155
Sam: actually that's a very good lens.

00:47:05.155 --> 00:47:05.635
It's related

00:47:05.635 --> 00:47:08.265
Joe: to think of like the
strokes, you know, is this it?

00:47:08.500 --> 00:47:12.140
Yeah, yeah, six month, the six
month mark to me is, is this it?

00:47:12.900 --> 00:47:14.040
Sam: Well, but it's the wrong question.

00:47:14.050 --> 00:47:17.640
Joe: I've done that, and we've done
that, and we went away, and you met

00:47:17.640 --> 00:47:21.760
my friends, and here we are, and
it's Sunday morning, and is this it?

00:47:22.660 --> 00:47:22.890
See,

00:47:22.890 --> 00:47:23.840
Sam: none of those things are the test.

00:47:23.840 --> 00:47:25.600
Joe: Like, is this it forever?

00:47:26.150 --> 00:47:26.800
None of those things are the test.

00:47:26.800 --> 00:47:27.830
And then that's where,

00:47:27.880 --> 00:47:31.310
I don't know if you'd call that avoidant,
but I'm heading for the door, man.

00:47:31.360 --> 00:47:32.030
Oh, 100%.

00:47:32.500 --> 00:47:38.070
And so I always put it through that
lens of whether it's like a Jack Kerouac

00:47:38.070 --> 00:47:42.805
or a, or a, all those songs about, you
know, There's nothing prettier than

00:47:42.805 --> 00:47:44.635
looking back on the town you left behind.

00:47:46.115 --> 00:47:47.595
I'm going to be out riding the rails.

00:47:48.075 --> 00:47:51.885
Admittedly, I was just, you know, catching
a tram in Fitzroy or something, but

00:47:51.885 --> 00:47:56.505
like when you're in your twenties, you
just, you move on and you dump people.

00:47:56.785 --> 00:47:58.715
You don't even really care that
you've hurt them that much.

00:47:58.715 --> 00:48:01.395
And you've just, it's how you,
sorry, I'm speaking for myself.

00:48:01.495 --> 00:48:06.245
I tell myself a romantic story and I move
on and I'm riding the rail and I'm onto

00:48:06.245 --> 00:48:08.835
the next little town and whatever, right?

00:48:09.725 --> 00:48:12.895
Ali: You've men in, just menaces.

00:48:12.895 --> 00:48:16.887
Joe: And I'm wearing one of those,
you know, like a Humphrey Bogart hat.

00:48:16.887 --> 00:48:17.663
Yeah, yeah.

00:48:17.663 --> 00:48:18.051
Sam: Horrific.

00:48:18.051 --> 00:48:19.335
Joe: That's what it's like.

00:48:19.985 --> 00:48:20.725
Sam: Hey look, can I

00:48:20.805 --> 00:48:21.535
Joe: just, and I'm

00:48:21.535 --> 00:48:25.475
not thinking attachment theory, I'm
thinking romanticism, essentially.

00:48:25.665 --> 00:48:28.925
Sam: All of that stuff made sense to me,
except for the part about not caring about

00:48:28.945 --> 00:48:34.885
the hurt, because the thing that gave me
the most difficulty was the idea that this

00:48:34.885 --> 00:48:39.602
person was now Securely attached to me.

00:48:39.602 --> 00:48:44.295
That was, that was the issue, like,
oh, I'm securely attached to them.

00:48:44.845 --> 00:48:46.315
Yeah, that's not too bad.

00:48:46.455 --> 00:48:50.425
Cause look, this person, as I've
described people so far, partners who were

00:48:50.435 --> 00:48:50.945
Joe: appropriate,

00:48:51.235 --> 00:48:54.125
Sam: trustworthy, highly
trustworthy people.

00:48:54.135 --> 00:48:54.745
Goddammit.

00:48:54.785 --> 00:48:58.165
Like you could give them your children
and your keys and your bank account

00:48:58.185 --> 00:48:59.475
and you'd have nothing to regret.

00:48:59.475 --> 00:49:02.985
But I'm telling you, I have chosen
outstanding partners and then

00:49:02.985 --> 00:49:05.005
completely driven them insane.

00:49:05.015 --> 00:49:10.085
Like over like 12 to 24 months,
sometimes within six months, but like,

00:49:10.115 --> 00:49:13.195
Joe: you don't get a free pass on
your behaviors just because you have.

00:49:14.160 --> 00:49:15.220
Disorganized attachment.

00:49:15.290 --> 00:49:16.310
Sam: No, no, no, no, no.

00:49:16.310 --> 00:49:17.170
You still have a responsibility.

00:49:17.170 --> 00:49:20.780
Joe: Because we all have that,
that chain, causal chain of

00:49:20.780 --> 00:49:22.860
thoughts, emotions, actions.

00:49:23.430 --> 00:49:25.255
And we all have to be
responsible for our actions.

00:49:25.255 --> 00:49:25.466
Absolutely.

00:49:25.466 --> 00:49:27.870
Sam: We have to be responsible for
what we can be responsible for.

00:49:27.870 --> 00:49:30.250
Joe: I mean, it's only to reflect
and like, is there something

00:49:30.250 --> 00:49:31.660
I can overlay over this?

00:49:31.660 --> 00:49:32.140
Sam: Of course.

00:49:32.150 --> 00:49:32.870
Joe: But we always do.

00:49:33.260 --> 00:49:36.840
As much as we, who knows if we have free
will, but we certainly are the illusion

00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:41.590
of, I can make this decision, I can, I
can break up with this person or I can

00:49:41.590 --> 00:49:43.300
stay with this person and work on it.

00:49:43.720 --> 00:49:46.580
You know, like we certainly
seem to have that agency.

00:49:46.740 --> 00:49:47.120
And when we

00:49:47.120 --> 00:49:50.995
Sam: Well, I would expect Experience
a conscious sense of agency, but then

00:49:50.995 --> 00:49:52.675
I didn't know what to do with it.

00:49:52.675 --> 00:49:53.992
I would find myself unable to exercise it.

00:49:53.992 --> 00:49:57.775
Ali: It's like waiting, you're anxious
and you're waiting for the text and you're

00:49:57.775 --> 00:50:01.065
like, and the, yeah, I'm like, I'm going
to, like you, I want to send the text.

00:50:01.065 --> 00:50:03.285
I want to send the second,
the third, the fourth text.

00:50:03.315 --> 00:50:04.575
And it's actually
turning around and going.

00:50:04.935 --> 00:50:07.685
I'm not going to send
the text and follow up.

00:50:07.725 --> 00:50:11.795
I'm going to sit with those feelings
and process them and like, why

00:50:11.795 --> 00:50:14.475
am I feeling anxious about not
hearing back from that person?

00:50:14.475 --> 00:50:15.875
So that's the change in behavior.

00:50:16.135 --> 00:50:18.995
So we are perfectly capable of doing that.

00:50:19.225 --> 00:50:22.615
But then like, yeah, I think,
I mean, we've all done that.

00:50:22.635 --> 00:50:25.555
We've all been the crazy ex to a
certain extent to somebody else.

00:50:25.585 --> 00:50:26.055
Sam: Absolutely.

00:50:26.085 --> 00:50:26.955
Like, yeah, everybody.

00:50:26.955 --> 00:50:27.125
Yeah.

00:50:27.125 --> 00:50:28.535
We've all done something.

00:50:28.735 --> 00:50:30.295
Ali: I mean, like, I do
not believe anyone who.

00:50:30.435 --> 00:50:32.325
Has not done something that
wasn't a little bit crazy.

00:50:32.325 --> 00:50:38.425
Sam: Everything my exes have ever done
was all proportional and reasonable if

00:50:38.495 --> 00:50:40.225
you understood what had passed between us.

00:50:40.665 --> 00:50:40.915
Yeah.

00:50:40.925 --> 00:50:41.435
I literally can't.

00:50:41.555 --> 00:50:44.615
Ali: Whether it was in response
to their behavior or yeah.

00:50:44.655 --> 00:50:46.125
Something that came from yourself.

00:50:46.145 --> 00:50:48.945
It's just, we've all done
that, but hopefully yeah.

00:50:48.945 --> 00:50:52.035
With the awareness of knowing the
attachment styles, well yeah, I'm anxious.

00:50:52.125 --> 00:50:54.945
Okay, I'm going to sit with this
anxiety and I'm not going to project

00:50:55.195 --> 00:50:56.885
my anxiousness onto this other person.

00:50:56.915 --> 00:51:00.045
I'm going to work on that myself
and find something else to do

00:51:00.415 --> 00:51:01.275
and feel good about myself.

00:51:01.275 --> 00:51:05.165
And like you said, it comes back to
that self care of, yeah, what do I need?

00:51:05.175 --> 00:51:07.965
What am I needing in this moment
that I'm not getting from that

00:51:07.965 --> 00:51:09.785
person that I can give to myself?

00:51:09.815 --> 00:51:11.845
Sam: And it's not about
10 hours of streamers.

00:51:12.415 --> 00:51:13.245
It's about.

00:51:13.315 --> 00:51:17.575
The goal we should be striving for,
like, you might have different ways

00:51:17.575 --> 00:51:21.245
of measuring this, but like when we've
experienced this feeling of insecurity,

00:51:21.387 --> 00:51:24.297
either way, whether it's I'm feeling
smothered or this person won't reassure

00:51:24.307 --> 00:51:28.377
me, like whatever it is, this person
won't dole out my dopamine biscuits or

00:51:28.577 --> 00:51:31.817
this person's asking too much of me,
whether that's true in reality or not.

00:51:31.817 --> 00:51:32.067
Right.

00:51:32.067 --> 00:51:33.017
But that's getting triggered.

00:51:33.257 --> 00:51:34.277
I can't handle your feelings.

00:51:34.287 --> 00:51:36.627
You can't handle my feelings,
whatever that, that's kind

00:51:36.627 --> 00:51:37.437
of what it boils down to.

00:51:37.437 --> 00:51:40.147
And then you go, okay, I need, I need.

00:51:41.027 --> 00:51:46.320
What I'm aiming for here is to be
able to accept that these feelings are

00:51:46.330 --> 00:51:48.530
happening for like habituated reasons.

00:51:48.530 --> 00:51:50.480
These were adaptive strategies other times

00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:51.960
it's not working for me now.

00:51:52.170 --> 00:51:57.770
I don't want to keep doing this, but my
primary responsibility right now is not

00:51:57.770 --> 00:52:01.000
to try and dismiss this feeling, but I got
to, I try and understand what's happening.

00:52:01.280 --> 00:52:09.040
And then the goal I'm shooting for is I
can sit alone with my thoughts that if

00:52:09.040 --> 00:52:14.095
I can do that for at least some of every
day, I stand a reasonable chance of being

00:52:14.115 --> 00:52:18.035
able to actually partner with somebody,
like, we have that responsibility to

00:52:18.035 --> 00:52:22.945
ourselves and to the other before we can
start placing expectations on others.

00:52:23.375 --> 00:52:29.245
Am I able to sort of tell more
of an anxious type story because

00:52:29.245 --> 00:52:30.695
I've done a whole lot of avoidant.

00:52:30.831 --> 00:52:33.791
one of these wonderful people
decided to put a healthy boundary

00:52:33.791 --> 00:52:37.771
in place one day with me, like
about, say, the six week mark.

00:52:38.361 --> 00:52:39.961
No, not even, like, three weeks in.

00:52:40.171 --> 00:52:43.291
And I was already head over heels
with this person, and rightly so.

00:52:43.911 --> 00:52:44.921
we were very well bonded.

00:52:45.061 --> 00:52:52.201
And then I'd done inconsiderate, I
can't remember what it was, Enough to

00:52:52.201 --> 00:52:55.401
be pretty annoying and for that person
to , call me out on it, fair enough.

00:52:55.911 --> 00:52:59.241
And read me the riot act,
but , proportionately, it was

00:52:59.241 --> 00:53:02.461
like, this made me feel this way,
use the right kind of language.

00:53:02.841 --> 00:53:04.451
" And I know you didn't do this on purpose.

00:53:04.861 --> 00:53:08.981
You sometimes are unaware of what's
happening for other people, you're

00:53:08.981 --> 00:53:11.848
not, know, always tuned into that and.

00:53:12.703 --> 00:53:15.693
You couldn't see how much
this was not working for me.

00:53:16.563 --> 00:53:18.253
Anyway, I'm going for a run now."

00:53:18.763 --> 00:53:19.613
And then she went for a run.

00:53:19.937 --> 00:53:22.217
Five minutes later, I'm
completely spiraling and I'm

00:53:22.217 --> 00:53:23.547
like, well, that's it then.

00:53:23.717 --> 00:53:24.257
That's it then.

00:53:24.337 --> 00:53:24.817
It's over.

00:53:25.007 --> 00:53:25.557
It's over.

00:53:25.747 --> 00:53:29.190
And it's like, just as strong
a feeling as with the first

00:53:29.190 --> 00:53:31.440
girlfriend, like, Oh, she likes me.

00:53:32.100 --> 00:53:32.660
I gotta go.

00:53:33.180 --> 00:53:37.840
You know, it's the, it was the
exact same sick, anxious feeling.

00:53:38.710 --> 00:53:39.360
" Oh, I have.

00:53:39.390 --> 00:53:40.730
I've deeply wronged this person.

00:53:41.360 --> 00:53:43.010
How could they ever
want to be with me now?"

00:53:43.670 --> 00:53:46.130
Like, okay, too far, you know?

00:53:46.410 --> 00:53:48.550
So it's just, it's just
too far in all cases.

00:53:48.600 --> 00:53:52.290
Joe: I mean, I think my anxious
attachment I can't look, I don't wanna

00:53:52.290 --> 00:53:56.633
make it a totalizing theory of why
I act in the world, but I will say

00:53:56.723 --> 00:54:01.373
my anxious and attachment has pushed
me towards many a preemptive strike.

00:54:02.178 --> 00:54:02.958
In the last eight years,

00:54:03.068 --> 00:54:04.168
Sam: that's a great way to do it,

00:54:04.168 --> 00:54:08.138
Joe: you know, like it's like,
"Hmm, I'm getting out of here,

00:54:08.138 --> 00:54:09.168
you know, well, absolutely.

00:54:09.478 --> 00:54:13.858
Before this person hurts me in a way
that I won't be able to recover from."

00:54:13.858 --> 00:54:15.038
Ali: you self sabotage,

00:54:15.058 --> 00:54:16.448
Joe: so this is over.

00:54:16.448 --> 00:54:17.728
Sam: Well, start with the statement.

00:54:17.808 --> 00:54:21.198
"I won't be able to recover from"
and replace it with, "I will be able

00:54:21.198 --> 00:54:24.588
to recover from", and then you won't
have that first part of the problem.

00:54:25.133 --> 00:54:27.623
Which is, "I have to now avoid something."

00:54:27.803 --> 00:54:30.193
Joe: Yeah, I mean, but you're
describing a dating landscape where

00:54:30.193 --> 00:54:31.703
you're picking appropriate people.

00:54:31.703 --> 00:54:34.743
I'm just talking about the ones
that have fucked me up in the last

00:54:34.743 --> 00:54:39.093
eight years where I picked the wrong
person and ignored every single sign

00:54:39.093 --> 00:54:39.903
that they were the wrong person.

00:54:39.903 --> 00:54:40.173
Ali: But

00:54:40.173 --> 00:54:45.213
you're controlling the outcome by
sabotaging it and, or, yeah, like, and

00:54:45.363 --> 00:54:47.943
Joe: Well, no matter what
happens at six months, it's over.

00:54:48.193 --> 00:54:48.763
Ali: But you're controlling the outcome.

00:54:49.848 --> 00:54:52.558
That's your way of taking back
control in a situation where you feel

00:54:52.558 --> 00:54:54.218
anxious and you don't feel in control.

00:54:54.468 --> 00:54:57.258
So it's like, okay, well, I
don't like this feeling, so

00:54:57.258 --> 00:54:59.808
I'm going to pull the plug now.

00:55:00.038 --> 00:55:03.018
So at least you have some sort of
ownership over it and it's managed your

00:55:03.018 --> 00:55:04.418
expectations of what is going to happen.

00:55:04.418 --> 00:55:07.398
Cause you're like, oh, well we broke up
because I decided to break up with them.

00:55:07.398 --> 00:55:07.448
Yeah.

00:55:08.008 --> 00:55:08.498
Sam: That's right.

00:55:08.568 --> 00:55:10.508
And retaining that feeling of control.

00:55:11.168 --> 00:55:11.398
Yeah.

00:55:11.488 --> 00:55:16.633
See, what I eventually realized was this
desire to be in control and have the

00:55:16.633 --> 00:55:19.393
right answer was actually fucking me up.

00:55:19.423 --> 00:55:19.513
Ali: Mm-Hmm.

00:55:19.753 --> 00:55:21.043
. 
Sam: And I needed to let go of it.

00:55:21.103 --> 00:55:22.363
And that the, so

00:55:22.363 --> 00:55:25.213
Joe: how anxious or avoidant did you
feel when you decided to get married?

00:55:26.013 --> 00:55:26.373
Oh.

00:55:27.313 --> 00:55:29.923
Or were you in a secure zone
where you're like, this is heaven?

00:55:29.983 --> 00:55:30.913
Sam: Well, it's hard to explain.

00:55:31.423 --> 00:55:37.303
When, when I made a proposal of
marriage, I felt secure and like

00:55:37.393 --> 00:55:38.263
you'd have to, wouldn't you?

00:55:38.263 --> 00:55:38.533
Joe: Yes.

00:55:38.713 --> 00:55:39.978
. Well, you wouldn't do it now.

00:55:40.573 --> 00:55:44.913
Sam: Now, of course, I was also very
well aware of my own personal history

00:55:45.623 --> 00:55:48.593
I didn't have the right language for
it, but I had figured out a couple

00:55:48.593 --> 00:55:52.763
of things which was like, okay, I
get really freaked out when I feel

00:55:52.763 --> 00:55:54.273
like someone else is counting on me.

00:55:55.443 --> 00:55:59.603
Also, I feel like I want to
be able to count on someone.

00:55:59.743 --> 00:56:02.643
Hmm, I need to be able to
square this circle somehow.

00:56:03.033 --> 00:56:10.213
So I think I sort of had just enough self
awareness to I want a good partner and

00:56:10.213 --> 00:56:19.383
I keep seeking it out and I also need
to be a good partner and I had often

00:56:19.933 --> 00:56:22.773
quoted an article to various girlfriends.

00:56:22.832 --> 00:56:26.142
This article by Keli Goff called
Why You're Not Married and it's

00:56:26.172 --> 00:56:29.812
aimed at Women and it's a very kind
of mid 00s sort of think piece.

00:56:30.010 --> 00:56:34.210
but there's a great line in there,
which is especially relevant at the

00:56:34.220 --> 00:56:35.910
time, but maybe even more so now.

00:56:35.910 --> 00:56:40.572
Many men do not want to get married, not
because they're They don't understand

00:56:40.622 --> 00:56:45.212
what it means, but precisely because
they understand what it means, they know

00:56:45.522 --> 00:56:50.322
that a high commitment and responsibility
and investment is expected from them.

00:56:50.322 --> 00:56:53.592
And that is the purpose of
it, that you enter marriage.

00:56:53.967 --> 00:56:58.887
In order, you are deliberately
choosing to make a large and sustained

00:56:58.917 --> 00:57:02.087
investment in this other person
and the relationship between you.

00:57:02.447 --> 00:57:05.907
And it was that it's a, it's a
responsibility and that you're

00:57:06.007 --> 00:57:08.177
entering it in front of witnesses.

00:57:08.456 --> 00:57:11.846
The gravity of that was horrifying to me.

00:57:12.066 --> 00:57:13.486
But I also recognized.

00:57:13.728 --> 00:57:16.498
If I want a good partner, I
have to be prepared to do the

00:57:16.498 --> 00:57:17.958
work to be a good partner.

00:57:17.988 --> 00:57:22.698
And I could not think of any
reason why this person was not

00:57:22.728 --> 00:57:24.528
deserving of my commitment.

00:57:25.278 --> 00:57:28.098
And if I was being honest with myself,
I'm like, well, no, this person

00:57:28.098 --> 00:57:31.758
actually is more deserving of a
commitment than I am, let's face it.

00:57:32.428 --> 00:57:35.528
And, uh, it's not like
I'll never do better.

00:57:35.918 --> 00:57:37.478
It's like, I don't want to do better.

00:57:37.738 --> 00:57:40.298
Like, if I can't be happy with this
person, I can't be happy with anyone.

00:57:40.358 --> 00:57:41.378
Joe: Oh, that's so sweet.

00:57:41.398 --> 00:57:41.908
Ali: Yeah.

00:57:42.698 --> 00:57:43.498
Sam: Oh, thank you, Joe.

00:57:43.519 --> 00:57:44.768
Joe: I'm going to use that.

00:57:45.208 --> 00:57:45.723
Ali: Oh God, yeah.

00:57:45.723 --> 00:57:47.208
Joe: With like five different women.

00:57:47.208 --> 00:57:47.498
Sam: Yeah.

00:57:47.499 --> 00:57:53.018
Well, as Albert Camus said in the 20
letters towards the end of his life to

00:57:53.018 --> 00:57:54.548
different women, you were always the one.

00:57:54.598 --> 00:57:55.588
Ali: Oh God.

00:57:56.433 --> 00:57:57.363
Oh my God.

00:57:57.363 --> 00:57:57.633
You're all

00:57:57.633 --> 00:57:58.643
menaces really, like,

00:57:58.643 --> 00:58:00.598
Joe: it's just I'm joking!

00:58:00.598 --> 00:58:02.413
I'm joking.

00:58:02.413 --> 00:58:05.963
Sam: It was a good riff, Joe,
but you have triggered Ali's, uh,

00:58:05.963 --> 00:58:08.643
Ali's feeling that men are all
selfish cads at the end of the day.

00:58:10.173 --> 00:58:13.803
Joe: Well, Sam's been in the fucking, you
know, trenches of marriage for how long?

00:58:13.923 --> 00:58:16.603
Yeah, 13, 14 years.

00:58:17.013 --> 00:58:20.923
And what percentage, uh, secure,
what percentage avoidant, what

00:58:20.943 --> 00:58:23.163
percentage anxious in that 13 years?

00:58:23.303 --> 00:58:24.543
Sam: Oh, shit, yeah, it's about.

00:58:24.703 --> 00:58:26.743
It's probably about third,
equal thirds, honestly.

00:58:27.143 --> 00:58:30.023
Like, yeah, like there's been
times when I've very much been

00:58:30.673 --> 00:58:32.803
pursuing, uh, my wife's approval.

00:58:32.813 --> 00:58:35.323
Joe: Right, so the dance doesn't
stop just because you go down

00:58:35.323 --> 00:58:36.183
to the chapel or whatever.

00:58:36.363 --> 00:58:39.123
Sam: No, that's the day, that's the day
you really commit to doing the dance.

00:58:39.153 --> 00:58:39.713
Yeah.

00:58:40.163 --> 00:58:41.423
And getting better at it.

00:58:41.623 --> 00:58:42.423
Joe: What about you, ali?

00:58:42.433 --> 00:58:43.953
In your marriage, did you have a dance?

00:58:44.523 --> 00:58:50.573
Or was it just, ah, we're secure, we're
baking fucking sourdough and whatever?

00:58:50.573 --> 00:58:55.273
Ali: Um, no, I mean, there were definitely
times, yeah, where I would have felt the

00:58:55.273 --> 00:59:01.063
anxiousness and probably the avoidant more
so in that I think a common or feedback

00:59:01.073 --> 00:59:05.853
I would say from all my relationships is
that I haven't, yeah, opened up or lent

00:59:05.863 --> 00:59:08.803
on them or asked for help in any way.

00:59:08.803 --> 00:59:11.673
So that would have been, so yeah,
that hyper independence was very

00:59:11.673 --> 00:59:16.438
much still, uh, Thread throughout all
of my relationships, so it's still

00:59:16.438 --> 00:59:20.518
there, but I think that's something
I've been so much more conscious of

00:59:20.528 --> 00:59:23.918
the last five years and dating and

00:59:23.918 --> 00:59:26.708
Joe: I think it can make men
insecure if you're not needy.

00:59:27.098 --> 00:59:27.538
Ali: Yeah.

00:59:27.738 --> 00:59:28.028
Yeah.

00:59:28.028 --> 00:59:28.328
Well, yeah.

00:59:28.328 --> 00:59:29.898
It's like, I need nothing from them.

00:59:29.898 --> 00:59:31.618
I don't ask anything from them.

00:59:31.728 --> 00:59:32.238
And it's like

00:59:32.239 --> 00:59:33.808
Sam: Let's, let's, let's de
gender this for a minute.

00:59:33.888 --> 00:59:35.868
I think it can be a
problem for any partner.

00:59:36.348 --> 00:59:39.468
And any friend or parent for
that matter, if the person is

00:59:39.468 --> 00:59:41.038
not turning to you for anything.

00:59:41.078 --> 00:59:41.758
Ali: Yeah, it's like, well,

00:59:41.768 --> 00:59:42.408
what am I here?

00:59:42.438 --> 00:59:43.478
Like, yeah, I want to help you.

00:59:43.498 --> 00:59:48.228
Joe: sufficiency is completely, it's
like Fort Knox, you know, you're not

00:59:48.248 --> 00:59:52.548
dropping that and you've been given no
reason, especially because things haven't

00:59:52.548 --> 00:59:53.868
worked out in previous relationships.

00:59:53.998 --> 00:59:57.278
There's nothing telling you
at 40 years old to stop.

00:59:58.958 --> 01:00:02.938
It's not about becoming like, yeah,
dependent or giving that up, but it's,

01:00:03.298 --> 01:00:09.388
it's learning to be comfortable with
asking for a bit of help or opening up

01:00:09.398 --> 01:00:13.728
and leaning on my partner and because
it doesn't feel natural, but it is.

01:00:13.748 --> 01:00:14.428
Sam: Start off small.

01:00:14.458 --> 01:00:14.708
It's not.

01:00:14.708 --> 01:00:14.928
It is.

01:00:14.928 --> 01:00:15.288
It's small.

01:00:15.418 --> 01:00:16.568
Ask for a cup of tea.

01:00:16.618 --> 01:00:16.778
Yeah.

01:00:18.788 --> 01:00:19.378
No, I'm serious.

01:00:19.728 --> 01:00:19.978
Yeah.

01:00:20.188 --> 01:00:20.268
Yeah.

01:00:20.848 --> 01:00:21.178
Oh yeah.

01:00:21.178 --> 01:00:22.118
The cup of tea guy.

01:00:22.128 --> 01:00:22.148
Yeah.

01:00:25.408 --> 01:00:25.738
Yeah.

01:00:25.983 --> 01:00:29.313
We've all been there, but can I just
say we haven't dispensed any advice

01:00:29.383 --> 01:00:32.283
so far, but this is a really useful
point to like insert some advice.

01:00:32.283 --> 01:00:33.503
Joe: Well, I would say heading

01:00:33.503 --> 01:00:34.683
towards the conclusion of this.

01:00:35.663 --> 01:00:37.653
I haven't been able to get you
to say much about your marriage,

01:00:37.673 --> 01:00:38.593
but let's just say Oh, no, no.

01:00:38.593 --> 01:00:39.613
I actually want to say more.

01:00:39.613 --> 01:00:40.473
Which is fine.

01:00:40.743 --> 01:00:43.913
Even in a public sphere, you
have some right to privacy.

01:00:43.973 --> 01:00:44.363
Yeah.

01:00:44.463 --> 01:00:50.203
But, I think 30 30 30 split of, you
know, between your attachment styles

01:00:50.203 --> 01:00:52.053
within your marriage is interesting.

01:00:52.143 --> 01:00:52.433
Yeah.

01:00:52.643 --> 01:00:57.883
And I guess it makes me reassess, well,
if I can find someone who's got, who tends

01:00:57.883 --> 01:01:02.353
towards a secure attachment and start to
soak up some of their secure attachment,

01:01:02.422 --> 01:01:06.310
juices, does that mean that one day
I'll be completely securely attached?

01:01:06.650 --> 01:01:06.880
Yeah.

01:01:06.930 --> 01:01:10.210
And yes, but not find that boring.

01:01:10.220 --> 01:01:10.480
Right.

01:01:11.550 --> 01:01:13.190
What you're saying is, Oh no, no, no, no.

01:01:13.700 --> 01:01:14.870
Sam: The dance will continue.

01:01:14.890 --> 01:01:15.050
No.

01:01:15.050 --> 01:01:17.697
When I say the dance continues, what
I mean, one of the things I picked

01:01:17.697 --> 01:01:22.877
up from, like a podcast about Jung,
was this, the Jungian, so one of the

01:01:23.067 --> 01:01:26.087
sort of concepts of marriage, which
was, and, but we, I think you can

01:01:26.087 --> 01:01:27.567
work this for a friendship as well.

01:01:28.307 --> 01:01:34.027
If it's sustained and committed that
two people hold each other accountable.

01:01:34.467 --> 01:01:38.728
And they hold a mirror up to one
another and they, help the other

01:01:38.728 --> 01:01:44.748
person, both through love, nurture and
accountability and arguments, all of

01:01:44.778 --> 01:01:50.018
those things, uh, to gradually shed
their illusions and to stop clinging

01:01:50.158 --> 01:01:55.018
to kind of outdated fantasies and, and
nightmares that aren't serving them.

01:01:55.298 --> 01:02:01.148
And to let go of mother father fantasies
and To just slowly, slowly become two

01:02:01.548 --> 01:02:04.128
adults who can be there for each other.

01:02:04.128 --> 01:02:07.768
Joe: I've had that figure in my
life since, since, I mean, I had my

01:02:07.768 --> 01:02:12.038
partner and we had kids and, you know,
that's the person you confide in.

01:02:12.038 --> 01:02:13.528
And we did that for eight or nine years.

01:02:13.608 --> 01:02:19.838
But since then I've had a figure in
my life who it's a text conversation.

01:02:19.838 --> 01:02:25.148
So I would call it a written
correspondence of that person, uh,

01:02:25.208 --> 01:02:29.003
like holding up the mirror, sometimes
loving, sometimes It's attacking,

01:02:29.223 --> 01:02:33.373
holding up the mirror, holding you to
account, uh, and it's generally been a

01:02:33.373 --> 01:02:36.213
female friend who I'm not sleeping with.

01:02:36.483 --> 01:02:44.133
At the moment it's Ali, but I'm confident
if Ali, if I piss Ali off enough or she

01:02:44.193 --> 01:02:48.323
couples up with someone and disappears
or whatever, one of her many elements

01:02:48.343 --> 01:02:49.223
finally kills her I think she'd be

01:02:49.223 --> 01:02:50.388
capable of being your friend.

01:02:50.388 --> 01:02:52.698
Friend and someone else's
partner at the same time.

01:02:52.703 --> 01:02:53.058
I was gonna say, I feel

01:02:53.058 --> 01:02:56.508
like I've never been the type to
actually really neglect my friendships.

01:02:56.508 --> 01:02:57.193
Yeah, but that's okay.

01:02:57.453 --> 01:02:57.833
. No, no.

01:02:57.888 --> 01:02:58.608
But what I'm saying

01:02:58.608 --> 01:02:59.273
is Yeah.

01:02:59.598 --> 01:02:59.658
Yeah.

01:02:59.658 --> 01:03:02.478
For whatever reason, there's
been that person in my life.

01:03:02.508 --> 01:03:04.188
Sam: You've good at, you've
been good at finding that.

01:03:04.308 --> 01:03:05.028
Joe: Yeah.

01:03:05.028 --> 01:03:06.073
And I, and hasn't.

01:03:07.238 --> 01:03:10.328
Sometimes it's been someone I'm
sleeping with, sometimes it's turned

01:03:10.328 --> 01:03:11.558
into someone I'm sleeping with.

01:03:11.688 --> 01:03:12.828
It's definitely not going
to happen without me.

01:03:12.828 --> 01:03:16.238
Sam: No, it can't be
your partner's job alone.

01:03:16.308 --> 01:03:17.528
I think this is an important thing.

01:03:17.538 --> 01:03:21.818
Joe: Well, yeah, but I, but I do
feel dependent on that person, but

01:03:21.828 --> 01:03:24.808
that's because I need to test reality.

01:03:25.163 --> 01:03:25.613
Sure.

01:03:25.783 --> 01:03:29.593
Day, most days, because
I'm completely isolated.

01:03:29.603 --> 01:03:31.103
Sam: You need to ping the matrix, I know.

01:03:31.163 --> 01:03:33.723
Joe: My grip in reality
is shaky, you know?

01:03:33.823 --> 01:03:35.992
Oh no, I think it's a firm
grip, but it gets tested.

01:03:35.992 --> 01:03:36.204
It's

01:03:36.204 --> 01:03:36.416
interesting

01:03:36.416 --> 01:03:40.693
how easy it is for me to connect in
with it though, like, in the last week

01:03:40.693 --> 01:03:43.723
or two I've started doing something
I haven't ever done, which is walk.

01:03:44.023 --> 01:03:47.013
I've just been walking around my
neighborhood, walking along my river,

01:03:47.883 --> 01:03:51.913
and that connects me to reality, because
just seeing other people walking,

01:03:51.913 --> 01:03:58.011
riding and jogging is enough of reality,
but sitting in my bed at home can be

01:03:58.011 --> 01:04:01.946
like a The dark days of COVID and I
don't know what's going on anymore.

01:04:02.136 --> 01:04:07.676
And all I've got, the only portal I have
to the world is my phone, which is a scary

01:04:07.676 --> 01:04:08.376
place to go.

01:04:08.376 --> 01:04:12.096
Sam: So many relationships failed
during COVID, including friendships

01:04:12.356 --> 01:04:13.936
and housemates and so on.

01:04:13.936 --> 01:04:18.206
But yeah, marital and, you know, intimate
relationships failed in epic numbers.

01:04:18.756 --> 01:04:21.256
And people would make jokes like this
was around each other all the time.

01:04:21.256 --> 01:04:22.666
Well, yeah, that is part of it.

01:04:22.846 --> 01:04:23.466
Absolutely.

01:04:23.706 --> 01:04:28.361
But the real issue was people,
So, in a lot of cases, familiarity

01:04:28.361 --> 01:04:29.911
and contempt, absolutely true.

01:04:30.161 --> 01:04:34.001
But what was often really going wrong
was people were not getting those

01:04:34.021 --> 01:04:38.241
other forms of support and outlet that
enabled the relationship to breathe.

01:04:38.251 --> 01:04:38.511
To be

01:04:38.521 --> 01:04:41.271
Ali: have, yeah, to have that
healthy balance, you're placing all

01:04:41.271 --> 01:04:44.791
of that, all of those expectations
and wants and needs on one person.

01:04:44.801 --> 01:04:46.101
Sam: Which is anxious type stuff.

01:04:46.111 --> 01:04:46.361
Ali: Yeah.

01:04:46.361 --> 01:04:46.982
And there's no way

01:04:46.982 --> 01:04:50.996
that a partner is, you know,
Able to fulfill all your needs.

01:04:50.996 --> 01:04:54.866
Like if they meet like 60 percent of
your things, you're doing really good.

01:04:54.866 --> 01:04:57.576
Like that's why it's so important
to foster and nurture those other

01:04:57.576 --> 01:05:00.616
relationships and those other attachments
with your friends and through your

01:05:00.616 --> 01:05:04.396
work or whatever it is, you know,
family and kids and all that sort of

01:05:04.396 --> 01:05:07.426
stuff, because you've got to be able
to draw from many different cups.

01:05:07.426 --> 01:05:10.116
If you're just continually
drawing from one person,

01:05:11.016 --> 01:05:11.196
yeah,

01:05:11.196 --> 01:05:11.666
exactly.

01:05:11.666 --> 01:05:16.566
And that, when we were in that forced
isolation of, yeah, with just one person,

01:05:17.076 --> 01:05:18.416
there's only so much, yeah, you can.

01:05:18.701 --> 01:05:20.171
Draw on absolutely.

01:05:20.171 --> 01:05:21.991
Joe: So yeah, it's been a good episode.

01:05:21.991 --> 01:05:26.951
I think we should wrap it up But I want
to in terms of what happens next as three

01:05:26.951 --> 01:05:32.141
people who roughly understand attachment
styles Sam in the immediate future.

01:05:32.141 --> 01:05:36.911
It's probably about trying to go towards
secure attachment within your marriage.

01:05:36.911 --> 01:05:39.936
Yes And well with and, and you.

01:05:39.936 --> 01:05:40.146
Sam: Well,

01:05:40.146 --> 01:05:42.126
no, with myself first,
this is the whole thing.

01:05:42.136 --> 01:05:42.826
Say it with me.

01:05:42.886 --> 01:05:47.046
I'm a person capable of
initiating, creating, maintaining,

01:05:47.046 --> 01:05:49.236
sustaining, secure attachment.

01:05:49.241 --> 01:05:49.391
Mm.

01:05:50.136 --> 01:05:50.856
I am capable.

01:05:51.516 --> 01:05:54.606
I can do the things that create this.

01:05:54.966 --> 01:05:55.026
Mm.

01:05:55.086 --> 01:05:55.926
And I can.

01:05:56.576 --> 01:06:00.936
Find in others that ability
to also, to reciprocate.

01:06:00.936 --> 01:06:02.566
So that applies to friendships as well.

01:06:02.566 --> 01:06:03.056
Yes.

01:06:03.086 --> 01:06:03.316
Yeah.

01:06:03.316 --> 01:06:07.096
And, and, you know, employers and,
you know, the people, you're caught,

01:06:07.136 --> 01:06:09.336
you're enforced relationships at work.

01:06:09.366 --> 01:06:11.396
Colleagues you have to
work on a project with.

01:06:11.416 --> 01:06:13.536
There are so many manifestations of this.

01:06:13.797 --> 01:06:16.917
and I've realized the equal
importance of all those things.

01:06:16.947 --> 01:06:21.722
And obviously, The whole point of marriage
is you are putting that person first

01:06:21.992 --> 01:06:26.202
a lot of the time and You need to be
willing to do that to make it work But

01:06:26.332 --> 01:06:28.832
it can't be all the time and they're not
gonna be able to put you first all the

01:06:28.832 --> 01:06:34.572
time But , I found myself equally going.

01:06:34.936 --> 01:06:36.486
" Come on, show me some approval.

01:06:36.556 --> 01:06:37.786
Look, I've done all these great things."

01:06:38.016 --> 01:06:41.776
Or other times, oh boy, , "you've
got a lot of feelings there.

01:06:41.776 --> 01:06:43.706
What do you want me to do
with all of those", right?

01:06:43.816 --> 01:06:48.478
And, you know, been on the receiving
end of those responses myself as well.

01:06:49.038 --> 01:06:53.628
And also other times where this is
the feeling of security is not always

01:06:54.009 --> 01:06:56.569
It's not always epic and entrancing.

01:06:56.579 --> 01:07:01.149
It can just be like, it's very simple
and reassuring and ordinary and mundane

01:07:01.169 --> 01:07:02.749
and being comfortable with that.

01:07:03.379 --> 01:07:07.489
So like, if you're looking for
drama and like powerful feelings

01:07:07.489 --> 01:07:10.379
all the time in your intimate
relationships, well, you'll find it.

01:07:10.969 --> 01:07:11.899
Joe: You'll find it on the dating app.

01:07:11.929 --> 01:07:14.009
And you'll find it, yeah, that's right.

01:07:15.274 --> 01:07:18.674
And if you want, you know, that, well,
so called fiery chemistry, but, but,

01:07:18.694 --> 01:07:20.074
Sam: but I'm here

01:07:20.074 --> 01:07:24.944
to tell you there's plenty of fiery
chemistry and there's also some very

01:07:24.944 --> 01:07:29.794
normal mundane sort of moments, which I
absolutely treasure and, I remember when

01:07:29.794 --> 01:07:35.914
I first encountered this in an intimate
partner of someone looking at me with

01:07:35.964 --> 01:07:40.584
without judgment and feeling that and
then an understanding and accepting

01:07:41.694 --> 01:07:46.714
and being able to communicate without
malice and without judgment what I was

01:07:46.714 --> 01:07:50.824
doing that was upsetting them without
making me feel like a bad person.

01:07:51.214 --> 01:07:51.544
Like what?

01:07:51.863 --> 01:07:54.843
It's a really, it's a hard
one to to put boundaries in,

01:07:54.853 --> 01:07:56.153
which I really sucked at doing.

01:07:56.153 --> 01:07:59.553
I didn't want to put them there and I
didn't want them being put there for me.

01:07:59.553 --> 01:08:00.483
I hated all of that.

01:08:01.213 --> 01:08:05.823
And just being able to communicate
needs and experiences using simple

01:08:05.823 --> 01:08:12.323
statements like I feel that, or I would
love it if, not you never, you always,

01:08:12.583 --> 01:08:14.333
like it's just really simple stuff.

01:08:14.403 --> 01:08:17.033
The language we use, taking
responsibility for that.

01:08:17.518 --> 01:08:21.388
And we can't assume the other person
is doing things to make you feel bad.

01:08:21.728 --> 01:08:22.958
, stop making assumptions.

01:08:22.968 --> 01:08:23.978
Assume, never assume.

01:08:23.978 --> 01:08:25.298
It makes an ass out of you and me.

01:08:25.628 --> 01:08:26.648
A person has done a thing.

01:08:26.708 --> 01:08:27.878
It's made you feel guilty.

01:08:29.018 --> 01:08:32.513
Don't go "you did that to make me feel
guilty" I think that's a huge mistake.

01:08:32.793 --> 01:08:35.433
Joe: to me, that's like
you're in the death spiral.

01:08:35.483 --> 01:08:39.063
Like I did the couples counselling
and they said, and we started

01:08:39.103 --> 01:08:44.083
to practice the, when you do
this, It makes me feel like this.

01:08:44.433 --> 01:08:46.573
And we're having these
conversations in the kitchen.

01:08:46.573 --> 01:08:50.583
Like when you do this, it makes me feel
like this, you know, how we learn in

01:08:50.583 --> 01:08:52.373
couples camp and she'll be like, fuck you.

01:08:53.373 --> 01:08:57.293
And it's like, or, or you
can use that same phrase when

01:08:57.293 --> 01:08:59.013
you are a fucking asshole.

01:08:59.223 --> 01:09:01.743
It makes me feel like, you
know, that's funny though.

01:09:01.753 --> 01:09:06.503
So to me, sorry, in my personal
experience, once we got into

01:09:06.503 --> 01:09:09.723
using the therapy language in
the couple, we were fucked.

01:09:09.943 --> 01:09:10.353
Oh, okay.

01:09:10.353 --> 01:09:10.603
No, no.

01:09:10.893 --> 01:09:11.553
When we finally broke up.

01:09:12.858 --> 01:09:16.428
Sweet relief, I've never had to
talk in an artificial way since, so

01:09:16.428 --> 01:09:18.288
the strategy makes sense but maybe

01:09:18.288 --> 01:09:22.808
Sam: Can I just say, speaking that way
now feels more natural to me, and now

01:09:22.808 --> 01:09:24.338
when I say, it's like, it's like when

01:09:24.348 --> 01:09:25.408
Joe: Oh, felt very

01:09:25.408 --> 01:09:25.918
imposed

01:09:25.918 --> 01:09:25.958
on me.

01:09:26.268 --> 01:09:26.488
It

01:09:26.618 --> 01:09:27.018
doesn't, it's,

01:09:27.158 --> 01:09:30.348
Ali: it's uncomfortable but you, you,
you, the more, it's like with anything,

01:09:30.348 --> 01:09:32.024
the more you practice it, the more
you feel comfortable with it, yeah.

01:09:32.024 --> 01:09:32.703
It's all that, that's the parallel

01:09:32.703 --> 01:09:34.628
Joe: I'd say to do all that stuff,
but it seems very bolted on.

01:09:34.628 --> 01:09:38.968
Sam: Put it this way, if I, if I find
myself saying now to anyone, my child,

01:09:38.968 --> 01:09:43.538
my partner, you know, Someone I work
with anyone if I find myself saying you

01:09:43.538 --> 01:09:49.008
always you never I hate myself like I hear
those words and go yuck That's so unfair.

01:09:49.028 --> 01:09:53.228
Yeah, and it doesn't that reflects
poorly on me like apart from being

01:09:53.228 --> 01:09:56.278
unfair on the other person and
I don't want to sound unhinged.

01:09:56.438 --> 01:09:58.578
Joe: I've become a bit cynical I used
to think everyone should do a lot of

01:09:58.578 --> 01:10:01.628
couples counseling before they break
up and now I'm more like just break

01:10:01.628 --> 01:10:03.598
up Oh, no, no save the time and money

01:10:04.228 --> 01:10:06.108
I think either approach would be okay.

01:10:06.188 --> 01:10:08.483
My approach is fine Worst case, you find

01:10:08.483 --> 01:10:10.943
yourself at the cinema on
your own, it's not so bad.

01:10:11.193 --> 01:10:12.733
Anyway, Ali, uh No, well, that's,

01:10:12.733 --> 01:10:13.718
well, that's the whole point.

01:10:14.078 --> 01:10:16.628
Sam: You're at the cinema
alone and it's not so bad.

01:10:16.658 --> 01:10:17.318
In fact, yeah.

01:10:17.318 --> 01:10:18.908
It was all, you should be loving life.

01:10:18.968 --> 01:10:19.178
Yeah.

01:10:19.178 --> 01:10:22.028
Joe: It was all, because I'll
say, you always could've walked

01:10:22.033 --> 01:10:22.868
away because,

01:10:22.873 --> 01:10:24.788
Sam: 'cause for all the anxious
attachment, because for all the anxious

01:10:24.788 --> 01:10:29.848
attachment stuff I've done and for all
the avoidant I've done, don't lie like.

01:10:30.843 --> 01:10:33.973
Oh, I'm suddenly alone, happy days.

01:10:34.083 --> 01:10:34.263
Ali: Yeah.

01:10:34.263 --> 01:10:35.373
Oh, there's a piece to that.

01:10:35.643 --> 01:10:40.503
There's a piece to not triggering your,
any of those responses and emotions.

01:10:40.693 --> 01:10:41.703
There is a piece to that.

01:10:41.703 --> 01:10:45.093
That's very worth, worth
considering and protecting.

01:10:45.313 --> 01:10:49.123
And before you decide to bring someone in
who could potentially disturb that piece.

01:10:49.523 --> 01:10:50.353
Joe: So, Ali,

01:10:50.503 --> 01:10:52.953
you're out there, you've got
your shingle out on the market.

01:10:53.117 --> 01:10:57.367
would, were you into, are you trying
to go towards secure attachment?

01:10:57.367 --> 01:11:01.537
Are you, or are you looking for the
most exciting Melbourne fuckboy who's

01:11:01.537 --> 01:11:06.307
gonna like, give you like really
intermittent attention, but lavish it

01:11:06.307 --> 01:11:09.127
on you and then withdraw it and then

01:11:09.147 --> 01:11:12.977
Ali: So I'm gonna, like I would
tell my psychologist, I'm absolutely

01:11:12.987 --> 01:11:14.317
looking for a secure attachment.

01:11:14.937 --> 01:11:20.067
You know, relationship, which I, I, I
really am, but I would also say I'm human

01:11:20.067 --> 01:11:22.677
and do get sucked into occasionally, like

01:11:22.727 --> 01:11:27.957
Joe: those anxious, avoidant Melbourne
fuckboys, those little hats they wear.

01:11:27.957 --> 01:11:28.137
Yeah.

01:11:28.137 --> 01:11:30.557
Ali: And if they're like, you know, six
foot four, it's just, it's all over.

01:11:30.557 --> 01:11:32.147
Yeah.

01:11:32.147 --> 01:11:37.287
Joe: I try to be that one of those
guys, you know, height makes up

01:11:37.287 --> 01:11:38.187
for so many other deficiencies.

01:11:39.687 --> 01:11:41.537
Ali: Are they cute or are they just tall?

01:11:42.142 --> 01:11:43.412
Joe: Anyway, you didn't
answer the question.

01:11:44.262 --> 01:11:48.502
Ali: No, no, I, I, I'm ultimately,
genuinely, genuinely looking for

01:11:48.522 --> 01:11:50.342
a secure, healthy relationship.

01:11:50.362 --> 01:11:53.111
If I'm going to, this is the thing
that there is a distinct difference.

01:11:53.131 --> 01:11:58.211
If I, because I am very protective of my
peace and I am quite happy living in my

01:11:58.231 --> 01:12:05.669
mad cat lady era and anyone I'm choosing
to bring in, In a more sustainable,

01:12:05.679 --> 01:12:10.399
long term way, it's going to have to
be a stable and secure attachment.

01:12:10.749 --> 01:12:16.259
In saying that, am I happy to ruffle
my piece for a couple of weeks for

01:12:16.259 --> 01:12:19.389
a fuckboy because he's, you know,
he's quite cute and all that sort of

01:12:19.389 --> 01:12:20.569
stuff and I'm having a lot of fun.

01:12:21.424 --> 01:12:21.614
Yeah.

01:12:21.824 --> 01:12:23.244
Oh, absolutely.

01:12:23.294 --> 01:12:24.334
I'm not going to be a hypocrite.

01:12:24.944 --> 01:12:28.684
Sam: I must admit, I found it very
refreshing in my early twenties to

01:12:28.694 --> 01:12:34.144
encounter, uh, girls who were like
that, who were just, yeah, not at

01:12:34.144 --> 01:12:36.794
all, interested in secure attachment.

01:12:36.944 --> 01:12:41.224
and mainly interested in fun, and
discovering, wow, gee, this feels quite

01:12:41.224 --> 01:12:45.144
different, and it's not triggering
my anxious attachment, it's not

01:12:45.154 --> 01:12:47.634
triggering my avoidant attachment, it's
triggering my anxious attachment, and

01:12:47.634 --> 01:12:51.654
now I'm pursuing them, and isn't this
interesting, the boot's on the other foot.

01:12:51.974 --> 01:12:56.414
So it can be fun just to, like, remind
ourselves of, Especially those of us lucky

01:12:56.414 --> 01:13:00.524
enough to have disorganized attachment, we
can experience all kinds of fun feelings.

01:13:00.524 --> 01:13:03.784
Ali: And that's the thing, like, yeah, at
the end of the day, it's, it's whoever I'm

01:13:03.784 --> 01:13:08.604
choosing to bring in, like I said, it's,
I don't want them disturbing my peace.

01:13:08.614 --> 01:13:11.654
It's one thing to have, you know, yeah,
like I said, a couple of days where

01:13:11.654 --> 01:13:16.054
you've been fucked around or whatever
versus, you know, a long term healthy

01:13:16.054 --> 01:13:18.074
relationship that's going to be secure.

01:13:18.074 --> 01:13:19.214
There's that's yeah.

01:13:19.444 --> 01:13:20.034
Joe: And Ali,

01:13:21.034 --> 01:13:22.104
I do input.

01:13:22.144 --> 01:13:27.154
I put all my information into you
and do call you my autistic AI co

01:13:27.154 --> 01:13:29.594
pilot, so you know everything about

01:13:29.594 --> 01:13:29.834
Ali: Just doing

01:13:29.834 --> 01:13:33.514
all the psychological and
emotional labor for Joe, just

01:13:33.964 --> 01:13:38.204
Joe: So you know everything about my
dating, do you think I'm capable of

01:13:38.214 --> 01:13:39.884
going towards a secure attachment?

01:13:40.174 --> 01:13:45.254
Have you seen any signs of, like,
green shoots of like, oh, maybe he'll

01:13:45.254 --> 01:13:47.214
actually get off the fucking chaos train?

01:13:48.329 --> 01:13:49.229
Sam: Do you try this Joe?

01:13:49.839 --> 01:13:52.459
So Ali, I'm going to let you answer
that question, but can I just butt

01:13:52.459 --> 01:13:55.079
in first and say, like, for example,
when you send that text message

01:13:55.079 --> 01:13:56.719
and don't get the response, right?

01:13:56.729 --> 01:13:59.989
So this is one you're going to have to
really work on and just basically just

01:14:00.039 --> 01:14:01.839
desensitize yourself to it completely.

01:14:02.239 --> 01:14:04.689
But it's all about the perspective
shift,  imagine you're in the

01:14:04.839 --> 01:14:08.879
theater by yourself watching a
movie  I've been in both places.

01:14:08.879 --> 01:14:09.759
Woe is me.

01:14:09.909 --> 01:14:13.769
My life is at a real
low point here and or.

01:14:15.609 --> 01:14:16.859
I'm in there by myself.

01:14:16.909 --> 01:14:18.399
I'm having a glorious time.

01:14:18.559 --> 01:14:19.609
I'm just loving this.

01:14:19.849 --> 01:14:22.059
I'm not worried about what
anyone else thinks about this.

01:14:22.159 --> 01:14:22.909
I'm all about it.

01:14:23.489 --> 01:14:25.139
, oh, I've texted someone,
they haven't texted me back.

01:14:25.999 --> 01:14:28.609
Well, that's one less text conversation
I have to manage right now.

01:14:28.629 --> 01:14:30.499
Like it's just, it's
just pure perspective.

01:14:30.499 --> 01:14:32.859
Joe: I know what to do if I text
someone and they don't text me back.

01:14:32.909 --> 01:14:33.899
I just delete their number.

01:14:33.969 --> 01:14:34.399
Oh, well.

01:14:34.809 --> 01:14:39.249
So, I mean, there's a difference
between being alone and lonely and it's

01:14:39.249 --> 01:14:43.679
being comfortable with being alone and
realizing you're not in fact lonely

01:14:43.679 --> 01:14:47.549
in that you have other relationships
that are just as fulfilling and can

01:14:47.549 --> 01:14:50.829
give you those other things that you
need and that you're not feeling alone.

01:14:51.119 --> 01:14:56.019
You're trying to fill a void and that's,
so to answer your question, I do think you

01:14:56.019 --> 01:14:59.909
certainly have the capacity to rationalize
it and understand your behaviors, I

01:14:59.919 --> 01:15:01.529
think more so than a lot of other people.

01:15:02.149 --> 01:15:07.569
It's not that you don't, but I do think
like a lot of us, you just, those other

01:15:07.649 --> 01:15:13.984
feelings You know, with the, the more
volatile, insecure, you know, that is

01:15:14.024 --> 01:15:19.664
so intoxicating to you, I think you do
struggle to, to, yeah, to, to, to not

01:15:19.674 --> 01:15:23.974
Yeah, I mean, if someone is clean and
sober from substances, the closest I get

01:15:23.984 --> 01:15:28.429
to a hit It is some kind of erratic woman.

01:15:29.079 --> 01:15:32.919
Sam: And so can I just like just really
focus your mind on the idea that you

01:15:32.969 --> 01:15:37.709
can have secure attachment and in fact
you have experienced it many times.

01:15:37.769 --> 01:15:41.279
Joe: I can have it, but how do
I not find it crushingly boring?

01:15:41.279 --> 01:15:42.629
Sam: So the real objective is.

01:15:43.334 --> 01:15:49.604
Figuring out why when it does present
itself, you find reasons to discount it.

01:15:49.664 --> 01:15:51.404
So a classic avoidance strategy.

01:15:51.714 --> 01:15:53.304
Even though you experience
a lot of the anxious stuff,

01:15:53.304 --> 01:15:54.209
why are you checking me back?

01:15:54.654 --> 01:15:57.774
. You also do classic, you also do
classic avoidance stuff, which is I do.

01:15:57.774 --> 01:15:57.984
Yeah.

01:15:58.074 --> 01:15:59.634
Oh, oh, she's this, she's that.

01:15:59.639 --> 01:16:02.244
Joe: But what about checking out
after six months every single time?

01:16:02.609 --> 01:16:03.449
That's pretty avoidant.

01:16:03.469 --> 01:16:03.689
Sam: So,

01:16:03.689 --> 01:16:04.489
so what's going on there is.

01:16:04.994 --> 01:16:09.224
It, see, I know these two things seem
so different to you and like, well,

01:16:09.284 --> 01:16:13.854
like just, they cannot be resolved as
one thing, but it's so clear to me just

01:16:13.894 --> 01:16:18.634
sitting at a distance and I'm going
like, it's the same basic thing in both

01:16:18.634 --> 01:16:23.434
cases where you're going like, Oh, it
depends on this person and to, and to

01:16:23.434 --> 01:16:25.174
text me back and then I'll feel okay.

01:16:25.384 --> 01:16:26.574
And then in the other circumstance.

01:16:27.044 --> 01:16:29.174
Boo, boring, yuck, I'm out of here.

01:16:29.444 --> 01:16:30.384
It's the same thing.

01:16:30.494 --> 01:16:32.354
They aren't exciting me.

01:16:32.624 --> 01:16:33.874
It's not working for me.

01:16:33.964 --> 01:16:35.524
They're not giving me what I need.

01:16:35.594 --> 01:16:38.054
So it's, it's just the exact same thing.

01:16:39.084 --> 01:16:42.764
So in both cases, you're placing
the locus outside of the self

01:16:43.024 --> 01:16:43.794
and that's the first mistake.

01:16:44.574 --> 01:16:48.424
One of the things, the analogies
I wanted to draw here between

01:16:48.424 --> 01:16:53.866
experiencing secure as Hot and sexy
and experiencing, the avoidant and

01:16:53.866 --> 01:16:58.386
the anxious stuff as not that, you
know, as like, Oh, this isn't fun.

01:16:58.536 --> 01:17:01.976
It's actually, I actually don't need this
in my life and I don't want this in my

01:17:01.976 --> 01:17:05.036
life and I'm moving away from it and I'm
taking responsibility for it, et cetera.

01:17:05.496 --> 01:17:07.836
Joe: That's where I should be
right sitting here right now.

01:17:07.856 --> 01:17:08.766
Well, I think you are.

01:17:08.776 --> 01:17:09.656
Sam: I think you're reaching for it.

01:17:09.696 --> 01:17:14.316
The analogy I wanted to make was
with when I started to work out my

01:17:14.326 --> 01:17:19.556
body stuff, and it, so for example,
hating my own body for many years.

01:17:20.681 --> 01:17:24.391
And, um, being, you know, being very
negative towards it and punishing

01:17:24.391 --> 01:17:28.701
it and mistreating it in many
ways and, and then kind of coming

01:17:28.701 --> 01:17:30.711
around to a more positive thing.

01:17:30.711 --> 01:17:33.961
And then lately encountering
body neutrality and going,

01:17:33.961 --> 01:17:35.051
yeah, actually I like that.

01:17:35.071 --> 01:17:36.101
That's more ASD.

01:17:36.341 --> 01:17:38.751
I'm going to be, I'm going with
body neutrality from now on.

01:17:39.191 --> 01:17:41.701
And also figuring out how I felt
about other people's bodies.

01:17:42.631 --> 01:17:46.908
And at different times, uh, classic,
I'll admit to having like, Not

01:17:46.908 --> 01:17:52.166
the right standards, expecting
the wrong things or unrealistic

01:17:52.166 --> 01:17:53.356
things in other people's bodies.

01:17:53.406 --> 01:17:57.806
right the way through to, I've really,
I've broken through , I finally had

01:17:57.806 --> 01:18:01.035
the revelation, , of just seeing
bodies, of just seeing bodies.

01:18:01.186 --> 01:18:05.756
For what they are and it's just kind of
accepting the basic humanity of myself

01:18:05.756 --> 01:18:10.876
and of other people It's so liberating and
then you find the sexy in yes the body it

01:18:10.916 --> 01:18:13.376
because of the pur it's so hard to explain

01:18:13.406 --> 01:18:14.496
Joe: That's the Ram Dass.

01:18:14.606 --> 01:18:19.136
Yeah, like treat people like you would
trees like we don't go out the forest and

01:18:19.136 --> 01:18:20.816
look at a tree This tree is misshapen.

01:18:20.836 --> 01:18:21.076
Yeah.

01:18:21.076 --> 01:18:25.481
Yeah, it's got like It's got like,
you know, twisted bowels or whatever.

01:18:25.481 --> 01:18:27.661
And we say, what the fuck's
wrong with that tree?

01:18:28.081 --> 01:18:30.031
You just go, Oh, look
at the way that's grown.

01:18:30.211 --> 01:18:32.091
But there is something,
people like that, right?

01:18:32.131 --> 01:18:35.591
Ali: There is something deeply
beautiful about that calm,

01:18:35.621 --> 01:18:37.531
stable, secure attachment.

01:18:38.181 --> 01:18:42.061
That when you have experienced
it, it is something to strive for.

01:18:42.221 --> 01:18:45.701
It is like, like I said, the first
response might be that it's boring, but

01:18:45.701 --> 01:18:48.651
actually that boring is, is really lovely.

01:18:48.681 --> 01:18:52.021
Like that, that sort of, because you,
yeah, there's a level of intimacy

01:18:52.021 --> 01:18:53.941
Joe: Is it kind of like a
chamomile tea compared to a

01:18:53.971 --> 01:18:55.166
double espresso or something?

01:18:55.166 --> 01:18:55.991
Yeah, something like that.

01:18:55.991 --> 01:18:58.221
Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, you,
you take pleasure in what it is.

01:18:58.451 --> 01:19:00.591
That's a big adjustment if
you're a double espresso guy.

01:19:01.071 --> 01:19:01.411
Yeah.

01:19:01.531 --> 01:19:01.841
Okay.

01:19:01.841 --> 01:19:03.241
But it can be just as exciting.

01:19:03.241 --> 01:19:03.701
Like it's.

01:19:04.011 --> 01:19:06.161
Because if you're sitting there
drinking the chamomile tea and

01:19:06.171 --> 01:19:09.751
thinking, this isn't a double
espresso, then you're fucking it up.

01:19:10.371 --> 01:19:11.491
Like you're doing it all wrong.

01:19:11.641 --> 01:19:14.201
You're just like, Oh my
God, this tea is amazing.

01:19:14.331 --> 01:19:15.701
Stop thinking about what it isn't.

01:19:16.371 --> 01:19:18.301
Tune into what is happening right now.

01:19:18.311 --> 01:19:21.981
It sounds like you don't expect me to
go towards the chamomile tea just yet.

01:19:22.081 --> 01:19:23.441
No, but it's the wrong metaphor.

01:19:23.691 --> 01:19:26.411
It's, it's like, it's a delicious meal.

01:19:26.571 --> 01:19:27.531
It's the meal you're having.

01:19:27.531 --> 01:19:29.751
Nutritious and balanced.

01:19:30.151 --> 01:19:31.431
It's what's happening right now.

01:19:31.716 --> 01:19:34.156
So, join the church of
what's happening right now.

01:19:34.606 --> 01:19:38.626
So, like, forget about the future plans,
the weekend away, or that nasty thing they

01:19:38.656 --> 01:19:39.986
said, or, you know, the shit from China.

01:19:40.346 --> 01:19:47.546
Be here now, and, like, this person is a
human being, and they're, it, how amazing

01:19:47.546 --> 01:19:54.406
is it to be right here next to this other
human being, and, like, our, like, atoms

01:19:54.406 --> 01:20:01.061
are, like, you know, our force fields
are, like, mingled, and It's cosmic.

01:20:01.241 --> 01:20:05.691
Like it's like, it's the creating
sacredness and like, and not

01:20:05.701 --> 01:20:09.471
going, you are going to meet needs
and I'm going to have needs met.

01:20:09.511 --> 01:20:13.911
So it's not that such a tragic
way of contentment that it's a

01:20:13.911 --> 01:20:15.901
deep contentment that you feel.

01:20:15.961 --> 01:20:17.951
It's like I said, it's a, and it, it.

01:20:18.121 --> 01:20:20.071
Play so nicely in with your peace.

01:20:20.071 --> 01:20:22.321
And it's a, it's a lovely, yeah, yeah.

01:20:22.321 --> 01:20:23.006
It's a lovely feeling.

01:20:23.026 --> 01:20:23.446
No trip.

01:20:23.446 --> 01:20:24.046
It's a trip.

01:20:24.241 --> 01:20:27.781
It's the real adventure begins when,
'cause you are mistaking like all the

01:20:27.781 --> 01:20:30.241
drama for the actual meat and potatoes.

01:20:30.271 --> 01:20:30.331
Yeah.

01:20:30.391 --> 01:20:34.261
But the actual drama, the actual
adventure is the person itself and

01:20:34.266 --> 01:20:35.641
what's happening between the two.

01:20:35.646 --> 01:20:37.726
It's, it's not, it's not big city.

01:20:38.851 --> 01:20:44.981
Transactional, intense sex, an act of
communion, and going towards the oneness

01:20:45.031 --> 01:20:47.991
out of the illusion of the separate self.

01:20:47.991 --> 01:20:51.081
And that's the real issue, it's like
I can do that on my own, see Yeah,

01:20:51.081 --> 01:20:52.091
haha, you're very good at this.

01:20:52.301 --> 01:20:57.081
I think that Ali thinks that I she has a
lot of evidence because I say I'm sitting

01:20:57.081 --> 01:20:59.881
here on my own and I'm spiraling and
I'm bored and I don't know what to do.

01:20:59.911 --> 01:21:00.381
Yeah.

01:21:00.431 --> 01:21:03.901
But what she doesn't say is when I
spend Half an hour with my man, Henry

01:21:03.901 --> 01:21:07.411
Schuchman, seeing through the illusion
of the separate self, sitting on that

01:21:07.411 --> 01:21:12.841
same bed, going through a step by
step process where finally I fully let

01:21:12.841 --> 01:21:17.271
go of this self, this Joe illusion.

01:21:17.881 --> 01:21:23.611
That's my oneness, but the oneness
that people experience is oneness

01:21:23.721 --> 01:21:27.571
with one other person, gets you a
lot closer to the oneness that is

01:21:27.571 --> 01:21:29.931
reality, loving awareness, yeah.

01:21:30.061 --> 01:21:30.401
Yes.

01:21:30.431 --> 01:21:32.751
Then complete separation.

01:21:32.771 --> 01:21:33.671
Well, exactly.

01:21:33.681 --> 01:21:34.991
Loving awareness of what?

01:21:35.291 --> 01:21:39.241
And being, experiencing the loving
awareness of the other, which

01:21:39.381 --> 01:21:41.441
really used to freak me out.

01:21:41.471 --> 01:21:42.721
And also it's like, I'm 44.

01:21:43.521 --> 01:21:46.071
Can I go towards something
that's just a bit quieter?

01:21:46.431 --> 01:21:50.231
Well, yeah, but also it can be so, but
it also tunes you into a different world.

01:21:50.816 --> 01:21:52.536
You know, like quantum foam, right?

01:21:52.586 --> 01:21:54.046
You know, the bubbles in the gravity.

01:21:54.306 --> 01:21:59.536
It's like that when, when you really
zoomed in the level, it's like when

01:21:59.536 --> 01:22:03.836
I'd be stoned and I'd be practically
hallucinating, like the level of detail

01:22:03.836 --> 01:22:05.746
in reality was just like overwhelming.

01:22:05.966 --> 01:22:10.826
And so when you're really tuned in to
like other human beings, you see one

01:22:10.826 --> 01:22:17.521
of the signs of attachment disorder
is you are really, really getting too

01:22:17.521 --> 01:22:21.211
much data from like the other, what's
happening with the other person now.

01:22:21.211 --> 01:22:23.161
But this also can be intoxicating and fun.

01:22:23.161 --> 01:22:23.281
Mm-Hmm.

01:22:23.579 --> 01:22:28.319
. but so in, in that more normal se or that
healthy, secure situation where you've,

01:22:28.559 --> 01:22:32.339
you've got the communion going on and
there's all this texture and subtlety in

01:22:32.339 --> 01:22:34.549
it, and it's like, it's still delicious.

01:22:34.639 --> 01:22:36.439
Like that's, I think
that's a great place to

01:22:36.494 --> 01:22:36.769
end it.

01:22:36.859 --> 01:22:37.099
Yeah.

01:22:37.339 --> 01:22:37.879
Thank you.

01:22:37.969 --> 01:22:40.339
I hope it's been illuminating
for the audience.

01:22:40.369 --> 01:22:40.879
Yes.

01:22:40.939 --> 01:22:41.809
I've learned things.

01:22:42.204 --> 01:22:42.584
Yeah.

01:22:43.204 --> 01:22:44.764
I'll give a shout out to Dr.

01:22:45.644 --> 01:22:49.614
Morgan's podcast, Let's Get
Vulnerable, which is about attachment.

01:22:49.694 --> 01:22:52.234
I was going to mention this earlier,
Ali, Joe  telling us that you're Fort

01:22:52.234 --> 01:22:55.724
Knox and you've got your security,
through, complete and utter independence.

01:22:56.174 --> 01:22:57.234
So Dr.

01:22:57.234 --> 01:22:59.414
Morgan has, you know,
says it over and over.

01:22:59.524 --> 01:23:01.424
So the answer here is
let's get vulnerable.

01:23:01.754 --> 01:23:05.324
So, but we have to get vulnerable in
a way that's safe and appropriate.

01:23:05.374 --> 01:23:08.404
And so it's like baby steps and
just going, okay, I'm just going to

01:23:08.404 --> 01:23:12.384
create a very slight vulnerability
here and see what happens with that.

01:23:12.644 --> 01:23:16.854
And you know, and eventually we can
go the full Monty and actually stand

01:23:16.864 --> 01:23:18.484
there and be seen for who we are.

01:23:18.974 --> 01:23:19.254
Yeah.

01:23:19.354 --> 01:23:19.614
Yeah.

01:23:19.704 --> 01:23:19.914
All right.

01:23:19.914 --> 01:23:21.054
I'll see you next week, guys.

01:23:21.964 --> 01:23:22.954
See you next week.

01:23:22.954 --> 01:23:23.227
See

01:23:23.227 --> 01:23:23.500
ya.