NWA Founders - Steve Graves Full Audio
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Steve Graves: [00:00:00] As you guys might know, you know, I mean, for three or four decades, I've worked with CEOs, business owners, and entrepreneurs, founders, all sizes across all industries. So our primary model for years has been to work with the individual and then add some value to the company versus a lot of times people work with the companies and try to add value to the people.

My model and our model was to work with an individual, a founder or CEO, and then through the CEO's help kinda influence the company. We designed a composite scorecard early on, and the composite scorecard basically says, "I'm chasing a holistic view of a successful life." Every organization's perfectly designed to get the results it gets.

Give me your results and I can tell you exactly what's going on with your organization. So if you wanna change your outputs or your, or your results, change your design

Cameron Clark: We wanna give a special thanks to our presenting sponsor, Greenwood Gearhart. [00:01:00] Starting with my parents, for years they've helped my family feel at peace by having a team we can trust build our finances for the future. One thing I love about Greenwood Gearhart is how directly involved the team is in the holistic planning of our finances.

We can regularly check in with our advisor and know that they see the full picture of our family, even between generations. I know they're adding immense value to so many lives here in Northwest Arkansas. And to learn more about Greenwood Gearhart and their suite of services, you can visit their website at greenwoodgearhart.com or hit the link in the show description.

The Northwest Arkansas Founders Podcast is supported by Cushman & Wakefield Sage Partners. Sage is a full-service commercial real estate firm helping companies, investors, and developers grow across Arkansas. I've personally seen them add immense value to so many business owners across the Northwest Arkansas market.

From office and industrial to retail and land, Sage helps businesses find the right space to grow in the state's most dynamic market. 

Nick Beyer: Learn more at sagepartners.com. Now, let's dive into the episode. 

Cameron Clark: Good morning, Dr. Steve Graves. Good morning, guys. Uh, Mis- Mr. Graves to me from growing up, um- 

Steve Graves: Or Pops ... yeah Or 

Cameron Clark: Pops 

Steve Graves: for my grandkids.

Cameron Clark: Yeah, yeah. [00:02:00] Um, Steve, I was really excited about our conversation this morning. Um, and y- you know, we've had a lot of just family history, but, um, in a, in a good way. Um, and we've had so many past guests who've brought up your name who've... You played a vital role in their life or business, and, um, I just think it's really cool leading up to this moment and this conversation.

Um, but was curious to kind of kick us off, you have a really unique perspective of developing leaders across the country, and then also here in Northwest Arkansas. You're based in Northwest Arkansas. How would you describe maybe what's going on from a business community aspect in Northwest Arkansas today versus what's going on a- across the country?

You have a really unique perspective of these leaders that are being developed and these companies that are coming out of our area right now. 

Steve Graves: Yeah, a really interesting question. I mean- You know, every community kind of, if, if you talk to folks around the country, every community kind of thinks that their community is [00:03:00] like, "We're- we got more golf courses here than anybody in the world.

We've got more parks and more trails," whatever. Northwest Arkansas, we feel, I feel, is a really unique community from the aspect of leadership development and company entrepreneurial development. Um, in some ways it's a little bit like a greenhouse or an incubator. Um, we're, we're, we've compressed... Let me back it up and slow down just a second.

I got too many things rolling through my head at once. Um, because of the Walmart effect and because of the Walmart halo effect, Walmart's success, along with J.B. Hunt and Tyson and Simmons and other big companies, Dayspring back in the day, a lot of those companies, they just, they pushed, um, they pushed people into Northwest Arkansas, but the people that came were a little bit of a higher caliber at, on the leadership development, uh, ladder.

So like when Procter & Gamble brought their team in, you know, they brought 100 or 200 of the [00:04:00] best P&G people in the world to Northwest Arkansas to work with the Walmart team or whatever. Well, just multiply that times 1,000 or 2,000 or 3,000 or whatever. So we've had this influx of people over the last two, three decades, and, and so we've, we've almost been able to hothouse our leadership development thinking, our thought leadership, the models.

I was just talking to Matt Waller this morning or earlier, and I mean, you know, I mean, he's a world-class leader in so many areas. Well, he's here in Northwest Arkansas and his home base is right here. And so Northwest Arkansas is a really interesting incubator, um, for us to advance thought leadership, leadership formation, entrepreneurial activity.

A lot of that stuff is happening here at a higher rate or a bigger rate than maybe some other markets. Um, I, I'm not gonna... I wouldn't argue that other markets aren't doing stuff, but [00:05:00] like we- Sure ... we've got a lot going on here, thanks to the kind of the speed of people moving here because of these big companies proportionate to the size of our market.

Cameron Clark: And how are y'all playing a role as Cornerstone Coaching in that? I mean, I, I wanna get the whole story, get your whole story, but, like, what do y'all do as a part of that today, right now? 

Steve Graves: Yeah. Yeah. Well, our model, me- as, as you guys might know, you know, I mean, for three or four decades, I've worked with, uh, CEOs, business owners, um, and entrepreneurs, um, founders forever, and on all sizes across all industries.

Um, the size is, was, was less relevant than the, the stage and, and the intersection that the company might be in and, or the owner or the founder. And so, you know, at any given time, we, I might have a client that was a private three or four billion dollar company, and a, a company that might be as small as two or three million or five million or 10 million, whatever, [00:06:00] across all industries.

So our primary model for years has been to work with the individual and then add some value to the company, versus a lot of times people work with the companies and try to add value to the people. My model and our model was to work with an individual, a founder- 

Nick Beyer: Mm-hmm ... 

Steve Graves: or a CEO, and then through the CEO's help, kinda influence the company.

Well, we've, we've done a nice job, and all of our guys are doing that, um, have really good full portfolios and working across all industries, all sizes. Um, we've added some cohorts in the last two or three years where we have some cohorts for pastors, some cohorts for young professionals, some cohorts for, I don't know, just different kinda companies.

So we've added a group, kind of a group, a little bit of a Vistage group model- Sure ... a little bit. Um, but you know, we're, we're just trying to kinda jump in and add value to the whole, that whole leadership growth and formation thing happening, uh, which is real, and it's, it's a really fun time to be in that business.

Cameron Clark: And [00:07:00] why focus on the indivi- individual first? 

Steve Graves: Yeah. Well, it's, it's not a moral thing, and it's not a right or wrong thing. A lot of it's a gifting thing. Um, my original business partner, Tom Addington, and I, Tom had a little bit more energy to, to focus on the company. I had a little bit more energy to focus on the individual.

And so that was the distinction that we made between coaching and consulting. Consulting is working with the company and then adding some value to the person. Coaching... That was consulting, I'm sorry. Consulting is that. Coaching is working with the person and adding value to the, to the company. I, I'm just a really big believer that as the leader goes, so goes the company, generally speaking.

Yeah. There's exceptions to that, but generally speaking, you know, if you work with the leader and- companies in hyper growth or whatever, you gotta help the primary leader- Mm ... the CEO or the founder or the owner be prepared for that, um, and, and, and grow at scale, as, as, as an example. 

Nick Beyer: Is, is there an example that comes to [00:08:00] mind?

Could be someone you've worked with or just, like, a story nationally that, hey, so goes, so goes the leader, so goes the company. 

Steve Graves: Yeah. Um, hell, gosh, I've got so many. That's, that's p- part of the problem with being an older- Mm ... fella like myself, is you just have so many stories. But yeah, I've got a ton of them, Nick.

I, I... You know, I, I don't- I wouldn't wanna isolate one person, but, like, a good example would be Ross Culley. You know, like, y- you, you, if you've... If Ross Culley, uh, runs, um, a, a company o- o- owned and, uh, recently had a, a, an intersection, but ran a company called Harvest and helped really grow it up. He didn't actually start it, started with some other friends.

Took it over and ran it. Well, Ross' development and growth as a CEO and a business owner, that growth and development was tr- was directly connected to the growth of the company. You know, the company's not gonna outgrow, generally speaking, or become more healthy than the leader as a general rule. So there's this, there's kind of this little bit of a [00:09:00] leapfrog thing that happens.

As, as the leader goes, so goes the organization. As the organization goes, the gr- the leader has to go. And that's why, Nick, sometimes you'll find an organization that grows, and all of a sudden the founder says, "Hey, I'm just not, I'm not the guy anymore," or, "I'm not the gal anymore. I, I was great when we got it up off the ground, but I can't take it to the next level.

And so guess what? Still the owner. I'm still the owner, I'm just not the CEO operator, so we're gonna go hire somebody else." In order for the owners, the investors, to get their greatest return, we need a g- we need a gun leader in here, not just somebody that's kinda making it up as they go. So there's a little bit of a leapfrog like that.

And, and I mean, there's exceptions, but generally that, I... That's a truism I, I'd kinda follow with, um, generally speaking. Especially in small to medium sized companies. Now, when you get to huge corporate environments, it, it breaks down a little bit because everybody's gotta be good to be at- Yeah ... to be at that level.

Cameron Clark: Yeah. And talk, so talk about the beginning. I think one thing I really admire about you [00:10:00] is, is- Okay, I'm, you know, call it still in the beginning stage of, of building my business. But th- how you carved, carved out your business was really unique. It almost didn't exist. Correct, correct me if I'm wrong. Um, how did you get there?

Give a little bit of your background. 

Steve Graves: Yeah, great. Yeah, thanks. Happy to. Um, yeah, I mean, w- when I first started coaching leaders and CEOs and business owners, there wasn't the, the rush to become a coach like there is today. Um, it was a little bit of a, an unknown territory. Um, you know, my formal background, my formal education is in philosophy and theology.

And, um, but I did that because I wanted to make sure I had my thinking and my grounding in the right place. Uh, I felt like if I had that education there... I actually was gonna be an attorney. I w- I was- grew up in Mississippi on the Gulf Coast, and I had aspirations of going to Ole Miss and being an attorney.

Um, a basketball coach said, "I'm not sure that, [00:11:00] that... You need to really think about that hard." And, and so, and so, you know, through some mentoring from him... Um, you know, I grew up without a dad in my home, and so, uh, he was very influential, still alive today, and we still talk some today. Um, and, um, so I, you know, I, I didn't.

I kind of chose a different path, uh, educationally. Um, but then I began to really figure out, I, I always wanted to be in my career lane or my zone by the time I was 35. It's a little late for some people, and some people say, "Man, that's a, like, what do you, why, why would you wait, wait that long?" Well, I'm a generalist and I love a lot of things.

There was a lot of stuff that I had, I had a lot of interest in. And so it wasn't, it didn't mean I didn't g- have a job till I was 35, and it didn't mean I didn't earn any money. Mm. 'Cause I was married, I had to, you know, pay for, pay for shoes for my kiddos. But as far as, like, me saying I'm in my sweet spot, like I am literally, I know my swing.

This is what I want to do, and I want to be in the... I, I gave [00:12:00] myself to 35 to kind of really figure that out. So I did a lot of exploration. I tried this, I did that, I thought about this. Even though I might have a job doing this, I was exploring some things out here. And I, I s- I had an original business partner, Tom Addington, who's just a fantastic man and, um, was just a terrific business partner.

And he and I spent a year, when we first moved up to Northwest Arkansas, we spent a year, um- exploring if we could build a business, what, what business would we build that was, uh, really the, the best example of the kind of company that we wanted to build that was reflective of who we were, our gifting, our wiring, our calling, our aspirations, our ambitions, everything.

Just, like, if we just could put it down. Spent a year eating breakfast. He was a professor at the university at the time, and I was a, a employee at University Baptist Church at the time. And, um, so we spent a year scribbling on napkins and papers and doing everything. And so we, we finally cooked up [00:13:00] this business model that we said, "Look, w- we would like to build a business that blends biblical wisdom with business excellence through consulting, teaching, mentoring, and writing."

And we said, "Let's go talk to our wives and see if we could get a, get a, get a, like, a green light to go do this." Get 'em on board. Get 'em on board. So we went to this old restaurant that nobody... still is not around, called Muley's. And, um, it was this... it was, like, the only place that you could get a, um, like, a, I don't know, some kinda high-dollar hamburger back in the day.

It was hilarious. And, and so we went to Muley's, and we sat down with our wives, and we said, "Hey, look, here's the plan. And you know both of us, we're kinda junkyard dog, hardworking, big work ethic. We'll do anything. But, like, what if we took this y- a year and tried it? And if it doesn't work, we promise we'll go back and get a real job."

And- 

Cameron Clark: Yeah ... 

Steve Graves: and, you know, we both have master's and doctorates, and so we, we probably can get a job. And we're, whatever, you know. And so they said, "Well, you know, I guess. Probably." Like, "Maybe. Let's, let's go," you know? [00:14:00] So we kinda drank, we drank to it, and, and on off we went. Tom ended up quitting the university, and I ended up, you know, stopping what I was doing.

So we forged our partnership, and, um, and we, and off we went. But I can remember in the early days, um, we both looked at each other and said, "Look," like, "Have you ever made any money writing? No. Have you ever made any money speaking? No." No. "Have you ever made any money con- coaching or consulting? No." And so we were kinda like, "Here we go," you know?

And so we picked the one that we thought we had the fastest track to revenue with, which was the coaching consulting. And, um- You know, and God, God, um, you know, we both come from a strong faith background and, and we, we, we prayed hard and, and God just, God blessed our effort, and we came out of the gate strong with some like, like, big time clients that we had no business working with.

Had no business. But, but we jumped in and we worked really hard, had some mentoring from some [00:15:00] local people that were really, you know, helpful and, and kind and generous to us. And so off we went. And so in some ways we were just like everybody else. We were making it up as we went and creating it. But, uh, that was, like, that was, you know, a long, long time ago.

And then, and then literally I'm doing today, just to close the loop from my being in my career lane by the time I was 35, I am still doing today the same kinds of things that we started doing back then. So- 

Cameron Clark: Wow. 

Steve Graves: You know, different address, different kind of clients, different formats and structures maybe, but, like, the core thing, my core offering- 

Cameron Clark: Mm-hmm

Steve Graves: that I say, "Hey, I'll do this. Would you be interested in paying me a dime?" Mm-hmm. Kind of a thing. That, that hasn't changed in 40 years. 

Cameron Clark: And what do you tell the person who, you know, landing, landing your first big clients, everything's real, doors are open- You don't have a ton of experience yet, but you need to service them well.

What advice do you give [00:16:00] that person today? Yeah. 

Steve Graves: Uh, well, um, I'll, I'll answer, but I would like to maybe hear what you guys have to say as well- 'Cause you're in the middle of it now, and you've talked to a ton of founders as well. But, you know, one of the, one of the big things you've gotta do is you gotta make sure you're investing in yourself and you're investing at the level that you want to have an output.

So a lot of times, like, if I really want a, a, you know, um, an A+ level customer experience, then I've gotta, I gotta invest against that. Mm-hmm. And if I have to invest in, against that and I don't have any money, I might have to take a risk. I might have to go into a little bit of a d- uh, debt. And you say, "Well, can't do that."

And so y- you've gotta make sure that you're investing at the level into your offering that of the, of the kind of output you're wanting to get. And so, you know, early on, you know, we didn't... Tom and I, we didn't make a ton of money, but we were putting, we were putting our extra d- dimes back into our offering, you know, so that we really [00:17:00] had our offering.

And, um, uh, and our offering delivered what we wanted it to deliver. Um, and I, I don't know, I'm, I don't know if I'm answering your question, but I... but, but there's a really, there's a really important, um, uh, a mandate for me as an owner and a founder to invest into what it is I really think I'm wanting to have as my output.

So if you want incredible quality or an incredible experience or whatever, make sure you're investing it. Don't just hope it happens. 

Cameron Clark: Yeah. Especially at that stage. 

Steve Graves: Yeah, 

Cameron Clark: exactly. It's like you, you, you gotta throw everything, everything you have- 

Steve Graves: Yep ... 

Cameron Clark: to be- 

Steve Graves: Yep. Does that- Yeah ... does that sound true for you guys?

Cameron Clark: No, I thi- yeah, I think so. It's just... and I th- and thinking about advice first from the client side, it's like the last thing I want, you know, I guess, you know, whether it be my investors or whoever else to think of me as like, "Oh, Cameron's not going to give it his 110%," or he hasn't like, you know, [00:18:00] sought out mentorship or advice for this, or hasn't like, you know, given his full effort.

Steve Graves: Yeah. 

Cameron Clark: Um. 

Nick Beyer: Yeah, I think for me it's investing in the best people that we can with the business model still working, and then investing in the best equipment that we can. Yeah. And- 

Steve Graves: Yeah. And Nick, that's perfect. Yeah. I mean, that, that's a perfect example. I mean, like, you could shave... You, you could probably take home a few more dimes and not buy the best equipment.

And you would say, "Oh look, we can take a, a twice as big of a vacation." But like at, in the early days, you've got to invest into yourself/your brand, your business if you really want to get some kind of significant return that jumps your business at the S-curve to the next value proposition in the market, you know.

And, um, that's just really critical. 

Cameron Clark: What, so I think today, you know, all these coaches are popping up everywhere. There's li- everything, everything on social media, yada, yada, yada. The, talk about marketing for you from the [00:19:00] beginning to where you're at now. It feels like it's, a lot of it's just been word of mouth.

Um, just kind of as a, you know, someone who's been here and kind of watched a, a little bit from the outside, but- 

Steve Graves: Yeah, it's been all word of mouth, Cameron. We, we, we You know, because our model, our model is not, uh, our model is kind of high-end, premium one-on-one coaching. You know, our model is not, you know, I've wrote, I've written a book and I'm gonna press this book into your business no matter what your business needs.

It starts with a whiteboard, and we figure out what it is that the person needs. What are the, what are the big dollar decisions impacting long years of life that are really facing them that they would invest n- not so much the money, but the time and the energy against to solve. And, um, and so, you know, what, you know...

I mean, what, what we, what we do is primarily we journey alongside a leader that, uh, is trying to figure [00:20:00] out how to either unravel some business issues, or unravel some partners, or hyper-growth and jump to the next level of value or enterprise. Or are they gonna scale and expand and grow, or whatever it happens to be.

And so we've, we've n- I've never marketed. We- I would always usually be full in September for the next year as a general rule. And because we're, our model is what it is, it's a small portfolio of eight to 10 CEOs or whatever, and then once it's full, it's full. Sure. And they jump into our portfolio, and we journey with them.

And, um, and, you know, and it doesn't, I... You know, and that's one reason why, to be frank, why I decided a few years ago to try to reinvent Cornerstone a little bit and add some other people because I got so frustrating, frustrated at having to tell friends no, or people that I would want to work with- 

Cameron Clark: Yeah

Steve Graves: but I just couldn't. Yeah. And, um, you know, I get, I get calls every week, you know, or whatever from somebody [00:21:00] that would say, "Hey, would you grab a lunch with me and talk with me?" Or whatever. And I'll always try to do it. The problem is, if they really are really wanting help and I'm already full, and it'd be just like if somebody called one of the two of you and you knew you couldn't service them.

You could not take on another client if you- Yeah ... had to. But somebody called and said, "Hey, would you mind meeting me at my office in Rogers and give me a quote?" And you'd be like, "Well, I can, but, like, I really shouldn't because I can't say yes." Yeah. Well, that doesn't, that doesn't help anybody. It doesn't help me because if you're not w- what are you meeting with me for?

You know, just tell me who to go to. And so our model, we haven't marketed at all and really was never public-facing. Like, you couldn't go to... I didn't even have a website forever. Yeah. And then finally, uh, Celeste convinced me to, to kick out- ... a website 'cause I just never nee- needed, never needed one. You know, I was all word of mouth, period.

Cameron Clark: But, oh, a- and then at the same time, though, you've been pumping out content- 

Steve Graves: Yes ... 

Cameron Clark: a l- that whole time. 

Steve Graves: Yes. 

Cameron Clark: Predomin- so magazine articles, books- 

Steve Graves: Yeah [00:22:00] 

Cameron Clark: Is that, was the inception of that more of passion or- Yes ... or- 

Steve Graves: Yes ... 

Cameron Clark: hey, here's a connection to- 

Steve Graves: No, definitely not marketing. Not one, eh, p- ounce of energy was, was, "Let me do this so I can get clients."

Again, I do not mean to sound arrogant, but like I- well, I've been full for the last 20 years. You know, like I just have literally been full in September for the next year and, and not been able to take people. So it wasn't about trying to get new clients. It was more about, you know, I write. I've written, you know, 20 or 23 books or something, and then I write a little article every week that's released.

I write for myself and for a small group of clients that I'm working with. 

Nick Beyer: Mm-hmm. 

Steve Graves: It just so happens that, that, you know, that I do offer some of my articles and stuff to other people, but it's more passion. Yeah. It's stuff I'm interested in or stuff that I really need to try to figure out or something I've learned along the way from some other friends or clients or, you know, I [00:23:00] just, whatever.

You know, like I, I wrote an article, uh, years and years ago called Rich King, Rich King Famous. You know, every founder in some ways we talk about you build your business, but in some ways, your wiring directs how you're gonna build your business. You know, every founder is either rich, king, or famous at, at their core wiring.

You know, uh, the McDonald's story if you've ever remember the Ray Kroc and the McDonald brothers, the McDonald brothers wanted to be king. High control, do it this way, every burger had to be perfect. You know, we'll s- we will not, we'll shut down the business before we let too many onions get on a burger.

I mean like, you know, Ray Kroc came along and said, "What are you talking about? Just if, if you miss the mustard on one, one burger, who cares? Let's scale this thing." He was about growth. Uh, uh, uh, kings want to be control. Be rich is growth. Be famous is have influence. You know, don't, don't think famous like a Taylor Swift be famous, but- Sure

but have significant influence. Well, you know, [00:24:00] that was like, I remember reading a, an article from an HBR, Harvard Business Review, that kicked that off. Well, I just wanted to explore that. And so for me, the writing was exploring that and then- Legacy piece ... yeah, and then- Yeah ... and then laying it out somewhere versus let me write something that's gonna create a market engine that's gonna be top of funnel and hook somebody and all that stuff.

Cameron Clark: Well, what do you tell someone now? Because like obviously creating content and pumping content is like, you know, name of the game right now. Everyone's like, hey, whether regardless of the platform, LinkedIn or whatever it may be, hey, you need to be posting X amount, or you need to be, you know, writing this many articles, um, to be seen.

What do you tell someone who's like, "I don't know if I should be putting out content. I, if, how do I keep it authentic to myself?" Like, do you do it just to do it? Or hey, is it... I'm just curious. You, you've just done so much- Yeah ... on the content side. 

Steve Graves: Yeah. Cameron, I don't know, I don't know if I have a one-size-fits-all answer for that.

I, I think for [00:25:00] me it's, it's kinda like give, tell me more about your thing, and then I might have an opinion. Sure. You know? Like, if you, if you're just not a content person, if you don't... I think in models and constructs, I've, I've created 110 frameworks and models- for our work with CEOs, business owners, and founders, and that's what we've been using for decades and decades.

Well, that's who I am, so I'm kind of- Yeah, 

Cameron Clark: you're passionate about it. 

Steve Graves: Yeah, I'm just kind of that guy. Well, if you're not that person, you know, like you ever heard of Claude? I mean, you know I mean, like, there's a whole world that can, can help you create content, you know, con- co- corollary content for your business, that you don't have to be, you don't have to be some person that cooks out content all the time.

So content is a, is, is a real valuable asset for most businesses. Um, if you're sliding o- over into, uh, can I use the content to juice my [00:26:00] business, fuel my business, scale my business, that's kind of a different business question. You know, if your content is trying to add validity, and substance, and depth, and texture, and, and all that to your business offering, you know, the, the business flywheel, every business has a flywheel.

Now, every business has to figure out their personal flywheel, but behind the personalized flywheel that you have, there's this invisible thing called the generic business flywheel of every business. Every business, your flywheel is your customer, your offering, and your finances. And that little triad, who you, who, what are you offering to who or whom at what cost or rate?

Cameron Clark: Sure. 

Steve Graves: And, and, and you, and you g- get that thing spinning, and then you say, "Oh, hold it, hold it. Man, I'd like to make more money," finances. So guess what? I've either got to change my offering or I got to change my customers, which then can pull my finances up, you know? And so that's that flywheel working.

Well, [00:27:00] if you're, if you're just trying to doodle with your flywheel with content, that's one question. If you're really trying to answer, how do I grow my market size or whatever, that might be a different deal. You might want to invest into your customer, um, footprint and awareness plan as an example, because you're saying, "Hey, I, I can scale.

I, all I need to do is hire two more people and I can scale my business." That's fine. Great. Then, then maybe you do want to get in the content game more. 

Cameron Clark: Beginning stage, you, you partner with Tom, start the magazine. Talk about maybe some challenges that were along the way. You b- you've had such a, you know, fairly long journey in this la- in this one lane, and, uh, um, you know, on, on your website you talk about, you know, the s- scraping knees or just, or b- bump, natural bumps that happen.

Um, what were some of those- Yeah ... one that sticks out? 

Steve Graves: Yeah, I mean, you know, and, and it- We, I can remember us having some growth challenges and [00:28:00] curves. Um, the very first year Tom and I made any real money and had any real money left over, and when I say real, don't think big, I'm talking about just real.

Yeah. You know, just some cash left over at the end of the year. I remember we were trying to decide what to do, and we both decided instead of us taking a little bit bigger of a Christmas bonus or a year-end bonus, we were gonna invest into our company and hire, invite a new c- consultant coach to join us.

And so we did. And, and we ended up adding a person, then we added a couple more people. So early tensions are is, are you gonna invest in the forward growth of your business, and are you investing for the long term, or are you just trying to figure out, "How much money can I make this one year, cash out, then I'll do it again next year.

Cash out, do it again next year?" Are you really building some enduring organization or enterprise? So that was a tension point. Um, you know, Tom and I had a tremendous partnership, but we, but anytime you're- you're- you're partners with people, you gotta figure out roles and partners. So we had some role things to figure [00:29:00] out within our partnership, which...

And I've had dozens and dozens of partnerships since then, and- and every one of them we had to figure out some roles. Sure. Um, you know, I can remember we had some, um, uh, some customer things along the way. We, we had to figure out how faith, overt faith, uh, friendly we were gonna be with our languaging, you know?

Because we- we- we never marketed ourselves as we're the Christian consultants or the Christian coaches. We weren't. We were, we were high-end coaches and, and, who h- who happened to be a follower of Jesus that informed and shaped everything that we did. But like, so we had to figure out our- our- our, where we stood with our own brand and mission and language and all that.

You know, we had to, I remember us deciding we had to put a cap on our growth, you know, which, which might sound a little squirrely, but for a small business, you know, you- you- you say, "I just, I don't, I want my lifestyle to look a certain way. I don't think I wanna [00:30:00] just keep growing into this psycho up and to the right, up and to the right, up and to the right."

Like, I wanna take great vacations with my family, and I wanna go fishing. I love to fish. I mean, like, look, look around the office here, you know? And I just back from Labrador, uh, you know, fishing. And, and so, but you can't do that if you're, if you're one-dimensional, and all you're doing is trying to, "How fast can I grow the biggest company in, in whatever?"

And that's just, you know. So I mean, so we've had a lot of tensions through the years. Um- Do 

Cameron Clark: you regret not scaling until now? I mean, I guess you were, you used the word scaling. Or I mean, it sounds like you were adding people on then. Maybe you got smaller then for a little while. I mean, do you- What, what, if you, would you do it, have done it differently?

Steve Graves: You know, Cameron, I, I did do it differently, actually. This was our, this was my third attempt to scale. My first two attempts to scale, actually all three attempts in scaling my coaching practice, and, and you know, I mean, I, and I, I own, I co-own a bunch of businesses also. [00:31:00] Yeah. That I, I have a whole world of, of ownership outside- Yeah

my coaching practice that for the last 20 years I've had. And so, but all three of my attempts to scale my business were, were responses. People came to me and said, "Why don't we do this?" Yeah. And I said, "Well, I don't know if it'll work, but I'm willing to try if, if, if you want to try it. I'm willing to play my part if you want to try it."

And so the first two attempts did not work, you know? And, and so the first attempt, some guys came to me from California, I mean, from Texas and Florida, and they wanted to do it a certain way, and I said, "Well yeah, let's, let's try it. We'll try it for a year or so and see if it works." Didn't work. And, uh, and so I said at the end of that year, I said, "Guys, I don't think this is working, you know?

I, I just don't think this is gonna happen." And then a few years, a number of years later, some other friends came to me with a really big idea. They put a million dollars in a bank account and said, "Hey, let's, let's scale this thing. Let's go." [00:32:00] 

Cameron Clark: Yeah. 

Steve Graves: And, uh, and I said, "Well, you know, again, tried it once and didn't work, and I don't know if it'll work."

And so we tried it, you know? Didn't work. Yeah. And, um, and so kinda went back to my thing for a number of years again, and then, uh, Ben and Kyle, you know, came and said, "Let's try to, let's try to scale this thing again." So I said, "Great, let's try it again." Yeah. And, uh, this one's working really well. 

Nick Beyer: Why? 

Steve Graves: Uh, timing's probably part of it.

The market is part of it. Uh, the biggest single part is the guys that, that are doing it. You know, we finally kinda figured out a model of replication that can, that can scale and work. Um, without, without getting too technical, um, you know, our practice is a little bit, our practice is not, it's not EOS or, um, you know, there's a Coaching Champions where you can just, you know, plug somebody in.

It's, it is a lot of art and science to it. And so, um, you know, you have to have the, a p- the [00:33:00] right kind of person that can actually do the kind of work the way we do it. And, um, and we, and I think we just learned a lot of stuff along the way, you know. And so having the guys on our team to help grow it and stand it up like it is, it's been awesome.

I mean, it's been so fun watching. I mean, easily one of the most fulfilling things I've ever been a part of is working, you know, with my son and with Ben and Dave and Phil and watching them be able to, you know, to do what, what has been my life work. It's been a ton of fun. 

Nick Beyer: Um, talk about over the years, even when you started, I assume your age, and this is for all business owners, right?

Your age had to have been a barrier into getting into coaching, into some of the rooms, uh, offering your services. There are business owners who listen to this who might be 25. 

Steve Graves: Yeah. 

Nick Beyer: And they are having similar barriers. How, how would you speak to that? Yeah. How did you overcome that? 

Steve Graves: Yeah. Well- 

Nick Beyer: How do you look at that [00:34:00] now?

Steve Graves: Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, Ni- Nick, that's a great, that's a really good question. Real question. Um, I think sometimes, you know, we, we grab the wrong models. Like, for example, you, you know, when you go to a doctor or you go to a dentist or, you know, or you go to a veterinarian, and if the veterinarian or the doctor or the surgeon's really young, you know, you might kind of do the, "You know, hey, you got an older cat in there I could-

you, you could bring in here to maybe, you know, to cut on my heart a little bit?" Um, so there is an age thing, but you can speed through that age cloud pretty quick with competence, with, um, a, a testimony. You know, a man with a testimony is never at the mercy of a man with an argument. A man with a testimony is never at the mercy of a man with an argument.

If I say to you, "Hey, I just, you know, I, I've got a client that has, you know, 15,000 square feet and I clean their [00:35:00] buildings and, and you can call him. He loves us," well, I just gave you a testimony. And so now the testimony can carry. It's not about how old I am and how long I've been doing it. The testimony can carry.

So if you have, if you have happy clients, you can work your way through, kind of up the ladder a, a lot faster than you, maybe you could in, in, you know, in years gone by. It's a real thing. It's a real, real thing, and you have to make sure that your appetite stays kind of in check, that you don't... Like, like, the, you know, I didn't coach Fortune 20 CEOs or Fortune 50 or 100 CEOs when I was in my, in my 30s, you know.

Um, uh, but at the same time, you know, the young guys on our team are coaching so much higher people at their level than I did back when I was, 'cause again, we were kind of figuring it out and working it out. The age thing is real, but I think a lot of it, you can, you [00:36:00] can advance through that age barrier as it, as we might call it, quicker and faster, um, as your business offering stands itself up with successful and happy customers and testimonies.

If that makes sense. 

Nick Beyer: Talk about a happy client. Talk about what that means to you. I've been thinking a lot about, um, w- so many of the founders we've had on have just talked about- Success, money. It's one of the things we talk about every single episode. It's not, that is not the outcome they're seeking. No.

Steve Graves: Yeah. 

Nick Beyer: Yeah. They're seeking for their person, their, their client, their customer to have a great experience. How, how have you thought about that, like, when you're talking to, to business owners? Is that part, is that a framework that kind of comes to mind? Or- 

Steve Graves: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. One of the frames that we built years and years ago, something called a composite scorecard, and if you're not, you know, every organization's perfectly [00:37:00] designed to get the results it gets.

Um- 

Cameron Clark: Say that one more 

Steve Graves: time ... every organization is perfectly designed to get the results it gets. If you want to know, I can talk, give me your results and I can tell you exactly what's going on with your organization. So if you want to change your outputs or your, or your results, change your design. You know, if you're tired of working b- all night, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, hire somebody else.

Well, I can't hire anybody else. Nobody else can do it like I can. Hire them and train them correctly. I mean, in other words, change your design and you'll be able to change your outputs. You know, um, um For sure there's a, there's a design thing there. Um, go back to your question. 

Nick Beyer: Just, yeah, like how have you spoken into that- 

Steve Graves: Yes.

Got it ... into, 

Nick Beyer: into your clients? 

Steve Graves: I mean- Got it. Got it. Got it. So the composite scorecard, that's what I was referring to. Mm-hmm. We designed a composite scorecard early on, and the composite scorecard basically says, "I'm chasing, I'm chasing a holistic v- view of a successful life." Is money [00:38:00] important? Yes. Yes.

Um, um, is l- is leisure and hobby important? Yes. You know, is family important? Yes. I mean, just is, is church and social community? Yes. The, the deal is is to, the, the, the honest, hard truth is every person I know has about six hats on top of their head, and you're wearing six or seven hats every day. And so, you know, if you can simply be a solid B+ and maybe an A- as a composite scorecard across the course of your life, good job, dude.

And this notion that y- and you, and when we measure ourselves against the A+ in one category, you know, like we're gonna always fall short, 'cause there's some always outlier in one area. You know, I can remember a, a young business partner of mine years ago who, um, uh, w- we were st- still great friends, but he wanted to become a marathoner.

And I remember I said to him, [00:39:00] I said, "Hey, man, now y-," and I, you know, I own part of the business. He and I own... I said, "Hey, like, tell me who else you're running these marathons with." "Oh, Bob and Jack and Sue and Debbie." And I said, "Okay, good. Good. Good. Now, d- are any of them married?" "No, no, no, no." "Are, aren't, aren't you married?"

"Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, got kids, yeah." I said, "Well, now, do any of them own their own businesses?" "No, they're kind of working for their dad, and Dad doesn't mind them running marathons all the time." And I said, "You gotta decide whether you wanna grow a business or you wanna be a marathoner for like every month running marathons for five years or whatever."

My point is this. He was, he was trying to connect him to somebody that was a one-dimensional kind of a person. Yeah. The composite scorecard of life is what a, a, a good founder ought to be chasing. Translate that over into the customer, you know, like- M- th- the money's part of it, and the money exchange is part of it, [00:40:00] but, um, I'm about to change, um, I'm about to change my lawn service probably because I'm just not happy, that happy with them, okay?

And the other person that gave me the quote's gonna be a little bit more. So if it's just money, I, I'm gonna stay with the guy that's cheaper, but guess what? I'm needing some other stuff, so I'm willing to pay more. So the customer exchange model, people might pay a little bit more if I'm providing the other things that they really want.

It's a composite scorecard that most, most, most people need to be chasing and most business models really depend on, not just one variable. Does that make sense? 

Cameron Clark: And what's a really proud moment you've had with a, I mean, with, with a, with a client? I mean, you know, just disclose what, their name or whatever, but just maybe a story of, hey, here's the, we got to the end of the road, or whether it's a year-long commitment or two year, I don't know how- [00:41:00] however long y'all, y'all do here.

What's the story on, "Hey, I'm so glad. High fives." That was- Yeah ... that was awesome. 

Steve Graves: Yeah. I, I, I, almost every client I've ever had, Cameron, it's crazy, because again, you know, we, we have a... I've g- I've got a three green light system that I've used for 35 years to pick clients, and it's just, it's just been golden for me.

You know, do I think you think you need help? Not, do your partners think you need help? Does your boss? Do your investors? Does your spouse? Do your friends? But like, do you think you need help, and have you convinced me that I think you think you need help? Number two, do I think you think you need help externally?

You know, most high achievers did not get to where they got to because they raised their hand, "Would somebody please come wake me up so I can go to work today, and keep me motivated so I can stay through lunch, because if you don't, I'm gonna go play golf." I mean like, what are you talking about? You know, I mean, most, most founders and achievers, like they're working their [00:42:00] tails off.

They're- 

Cameron Clark: They're ambitious ... 

Steve Graves: they're ambitious. Yes. They're ambitious, just trying to get it. So you know, and then the third one is, is do I have a greater than 50% chance of surprising you with our, with our results and outcomes? And that puts the pressure back on me to actually size and scope the work correctly.

Am I really the right person to help you? Are we working on the things I can really help you with? You know, like are you trying to, are you trying to come up with new coding for a Chinese formula? It's like, "Dude, I'm not your guy." Like, I'm probably not your person if you need a specialist like that. So you know, I, I have so many clients that just, at the end of every client, we have a dashboard system model that's a composite scorecard of model, and we drive all of our client engagements through that.

Well, you know, I can remember, I don't know, a couple of years ago, a guy was... I, I helped a guy a few years ago build his company in order to exit. Well, he exited, and he exited with a, [00:43:00] a big number, and I couldn't be happier, and he couldn't be happier, and it was like fantastic. So we high-fived, and, and we, and we still go eat lunch and dinner together and stay friends.

Um, so to answer your question, like most of our clients are gonna be high-fives because we, we, we map out what it is we know we, we need to get done. You know, like what strategic milestones are we trying to get accomplished here? And we just, we just drive them through there. It's like building a house.

Yeah. You know, like most builders at the end would say, "Yeah, I was happy with the house," 'cause like we did what we were supposed to do or whatever. 

Nick Beyer: Talk about, I don't know if it's our age, the stage of business that we're at, but there just feels like such a loud voice to scale, such a loud voice to grow.

And we hit on it a little bit earlier, but I wanna go deeper on that because I think, you know, most of your clients are high achievers. I think most people listening to business podcasts in general are [00:44:00] gonna be trying- Yes ... to be high achievers. So how, how, how do you avoid the seduction to scale? How do you know when it's right, when it's not right?

I mean, how have you processed that with your clients? 

Steve Graves: Yeah. Yeah. Re- you're, you're, Nick, you're getting at the heart of some, a lot of our work with people and with leaders and owners, business owners. Um, So I've said for years, there's, there's... So the, this, being a founder, um, or being a business owner or CEO, it's, it's a, it's a heavy, lonely, noisy seat.

You know, now, it's not all day every day, every... But, like, there are moments that it's really heavy, it's very lonely. You're the only owner. You own it, or maybe you got a partner and the two of you own it, you know, um, you know, and it's really noisy. And the noisy part actually is the hardest part because there's two [00:45:00] voices that are going on in the head of every founder all the time.

There's the voice of inspiration and there's the voice of what I call guidance and instruction, strategy. The voice of ins- inspiration is you can have unlimited voices of inspiration, people that are, "Man, you're, you're great. Gosh, you're incredible. Your business is unbelievable. Man, you work hard. Boy, you're a natural.

You're just... I love what you do. Gosh, Nick, you're just gonna make it. You're gonna be... You're... It's..." Inspiration, pouring courage and, and enthusiasm and, and, and boldness into your, kind of your heart and your soul, okay? You can have unlimited of those, okay? But you cannot have unlimited voices of a guidance and instruction.

You have to have very limited. We will... I will not ever take a client that has multiple, that has too many voices of guidance because you literally, you can't... It, like, they're all credible. And so it's like flying in on [00:46:00] an airplane to, into trying to land your plane, and you click the tower and says, "Hey, this is, you know, this is Nick, Cameron, and Steve's Airlines landing.

Um, which a- which, which runway you want us to land on?" And they'll say, "Oh, yeah, winds are horrible. You better come in from the north." Say, "No problem." We sail around, we land the gear, gear, landing gears down, and we click just as a double-click. "Hey, just wanted to check again. I, I, I see there's two towers out there.

I'll check with the other tower. Wh- which lane... Which, uh, which landing, um, uh, approach do you want us...?" "Oh, winds are horrible. You better come in from the south." "Hold it just a second here. Hold, hold, look. I just was told to come in from the north." They're both towers, they're both credible. So when you begin to socialize too much of your strategy, you know, and, and, and, and people pleasers, high relational people, that's one of their downsides.

Now, there's huge upsides, huge upsides, but they socialize every idea. "Hey, you think I ought to go build a seven-story building or a three-story building? What do you [00:47:00] think? You know, what do you think the market needs?" And then, and by the way, if you're talking to people that are ignorant, have no idea, no problem.

But if you happen to be talking to somebody that's got any muscles and credibility, they're gonna say, "Oh, Cameron, simple, baby, go seven bu- go seven. You got one chance to put a swing and hit seven, seven stories." That next day, afternoon, talking to another person, still credible. Oh, no, no, no, save your powder.

Build a one-story build and hold it back 'cause you might wanna go to Bentonville with another one. You can't do both of those. Those are complete different things. So figuring out the voices to listen to relative to your question of scale, if you're, if you're trying to only answer scale and get guidance by yourself, it's, it's hard.

So be careful of the voices. Now, specifically to the question, you don't have to scale. N- businesses don't have to scale. You do have to set the speed that you're gonna relate to the speed of the market. One of my books I wrote called The 5 Task is [00:48:00] you set direction. Every leader has to do these five things.

You have to set direction. I'm going there, not there. You know? Set speed. I'm going this fast or this slow. You never set the speed of the market. Never. You set the speed that you're gonna relate to the speed of the market. Amazon, Walmart, they're not setting the speed of e-commerce. The market sets the speed.

I might come up with an idea or an invention that for one second I get to set the speed of the market, but like it's over. The market sets its own speed. I just have to relate... I just have to decide how I'm gonna relate to the, to the speed of the market. So set direction, set speed, set risk, and that becomes part of the formula of speed.

Okay? And then set resources and set culture. Those five things have to be done. I don't... I, I, I remember I had a client that was a huge business, um, a local business in the local Northwest Arkansas regional footprint, and they were growing like crazy, and they decided to slow down [00:49:00] for 14 months and not take any new business.

And everybody was just hammering them, "Why would you do that?" They needed to let their people engine catch up with their, their business offering, because if they didn't, they were gonna always be just one swing away from potentially, you know, striking out or whatever. They did that, and then they literally doubled the company, you know, within, like two or three years after that.

So you don't have to scale. You have to make sure that you're setting the speed of your market along with your risk, along with your appetite, along with the market, along with your long-term vision. You know, what are you trying to build for, and, um- You know, uh, just like you probably have heard patient capital, the, the idea of being patient with your business model maturation and potency and formation is really important.

You know, if you're, if you're growing at too fast a rate ahead of the real substance of your bus- business [00:50:00] offering, you know... And, and, and a good way to answer this would be is you can ask the question, "Would, what would somebody pay for your business?" You know, and if you say, well, it's, uh, it, it's not just revenue.

Do you have the people in place? Do you have the processes and systems in place? Do you have the machinery? Is your, is your credibility and your reputation at a certain level? You know, that kind of thing. The s- the scale question, Nick, is it's a hard one in today's market because it- it's, it's, it's just such a f- a noisy market of competition, you know.

But I'm a huge believer, and you said, um, as a general rule, one more, one more babbling, 'cause, you know I'll babble forever about stuff. It's part of being old like I am. But, um, like I'm an offen- my ma- my primary business strategy is offensive, not defensive. Now, I'm not saying I've never in my life made a defensive move or invested in a defensive move, but like, I'm gonna be [00:51:00] build- I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be executing against my plan this year, not, "Oh, hold it, I better go do this.

Oh, hold it, I better go..." You know, because somebody else. Like, I'm gonna figure out what I wanna think I need to do this year, and I'm gonna be executing against that. It's very important that you're not just head down and not always be thinking and learning. But figure out your, figure out your rath- rate of growth and go.

And if you're happy with your top line and your bottom line at a certain stage, enjoy it for a season, you know, and then, you know, drink a Red Bull and go back and maybe give it a shot to go to the next level. 

Nick Beyer: That's good. How does someone figure out... You talked about the guidance. You talked about the direction.

How does some- How do you, how do you coach someone into who the guidance and direction should come from? 

Steve Graves: Yeah. Um, yeah, that's g- another good question. Um- You know, w- um, I was just [00:52:00] chatting with a guy who owns a company out on the West Coast in the last few weeks, and, um, he's going through a huge growth stage.

I actually invested in s- in, into his company a little bit, and, um, we talked about this very thing. And so the obvious is, is you wanna shore up your weaknesses or the blind spots if you can. Now, the problem with a blind spot is if you knew it, it wouldn't be a blind spot. Mm-hmm. Blind spots are not things we know, because if we know ab- then it, then it's an issue we...

It's just a, it's just a, you know, a, a thing we gotta grow through. So s- figuring out how to really compliment your blind spots. And so if you know you don't have a lot of financial acumen, you know, make sure that you have structured in your world a way to get, um, you know, financial intelligence into your thinking.

Make sure you've done that. So one way would be ask the question, where am I weak or where do I need, where do I need to shore up, you know, my thinking, I mean, my thought leadership? Um, another one would [00:53:00] be tendencies. If you have a tendency to chase every shiny object, you know, get some people in your world that'll voice over you some discipline and focus and say, "Hey Steve, I know that looks really fun and exciting, but like, you know, maybe we ought to let that one go.

Let's just, let's, let's wait, let's... Because we, you know, we, we just did one yesterday. You know, we just said yes and we threw some money against that one. Let's give it a few, let's say..." You know, so you might need somebody that can bring that voice in, into your world a little bit. Um, you know, all of that is always baked around, uh, around trust though.

I'm, I'm telling you. You know, if you don't have, if you don't have trust with somebody and they don't have contextuality, like if they don't have context for you and you with them, then you're never gonna have real deep layered trust. 'Cause, you know, I, like, you know, I might listen to you, but if you really understand my world, then I'm gonna listen at a deeper level 'cause you're gonna be speaking more precisely into my world.

So find people you [00:54:00] trust, find people that can offset your weaknesses or your blind spots. Find people that can offset some of your, your, your habits or your, your wirings or whatever, you know. And then I'm also a, a pretty big believer in, um- Um, a- again, the context. Like, you've gotta make sure, like if I hook myself up to somebody...

And by the way, everybody has a backdrop of how they think of strategy and speed and growth. Like, there are people that they're just, they're just scale, period. It doesn't matter what the question is, they answer scale. It just doesn't matter, you know? Yeah. And so you know if you're listening to them, it's gonna be scale, you know?

And so if you think you need somebody that's s- a scale into your box, that might be a good voice t- for you to have. Um, you know, finding the one or two voices in your world around strategy. Again, this is not inspiration. You can have unlimited people who just pour courage into your soul, but when you have people telling you which, which, which [00:55:00] airstrip to land on- Yeah

you know, how big to grow, what risk to take. "Oh, man, get the house. Mortgage the house. Go for this." 'Cause everybody's read a story about the guy that, you know, told his wife, "We can't pay for, you know, kids are out of daycare, and we're gonna mortgage the house, and we're gonna go live with the parents, and, you know, we're gonna...

And we're gonna, and we're gonna make gazillions of dollars." And like, we hear the one that made it. Yeah. We don't hear the we don't hear the 25 that like, you know- They didn't ... oh, yeah, everybody divorced everybody, and like lawsuits are everywhere. Mm-hmm. You know, so be careful. Be careful pulling people into that closest center spot of your heart and your mind intelligence on strategy, on, on direction, speed, risk, resources, and culture.

Be really, really careful. 

Nick Beyer: I mean, how much harder is that now, though? When you can pull your phone up, you can listen to- people, founders who- It 

Steve Graves: is ... 

Nick Beyer: who've built- 

Steve Graves: It is. It is ... 

Nick Beyer: billion [00:56:00] and trillion-dollar companies. It is, 

Steve Graves: Nick. It is. So- There's a data point and a story to support anything you want to do. It doesn't matter.

I can find the, I can find the data point that says, "Well, sure you should've done that. Here, read this story." And so it's, it's, that's, that's another example of sorting through, you know, and then making sure that you've lined up. And it goes back to the composite scorecard. If all you wanna do is make a bunch of money, it becomes pretty simple.

It doesn't matter. I, I, I, I have a client that, um, that just took his second company public. He's a founder, and he loves to say, he s- he loves to say, "You know what? I've been h- I've been very really blessed and very successful, but, you know, um, uh..." And this was, this is an exaggerated statement, so take it into context.

But he says, he says, "You know, I didn't have to go through three families, um, you know, four divorces, 17, you know, lawsuits with partners." And he said, you know, "I'm just, there's, there's, I wanna make [00:57:00] sure I'm successful at all of life, not just one thing in life." And so if I don't care about anything but making money, life becomes pretty simple, you know?

Um, and it, it's hard because it's such a noisy world. Mm-hmm. You know? And, and, um, it's just tough. It, being, being a founder is not easy. I mean, it's a ton of fun. I'm obviously hugely bullish on the world of entrepreneurism and, you know, I can't imagine why anybody wouldn't be a founder and start something.

Mm-hmm. But, but it's hard. It's tough. 

Nick Beyer: How do you resonate with the statement, "Businesses shape culture"? I think one of the things that we've seen here, part of why Northwest Arkansas is so healthy is because we have unbelievable leaders like Ross, who you spoke to earlier. Plenty of people that we've had on.

How do you resonate or not resonate with that statement? 

Steve Graves: Yeah. I, I, I, I think it's true, you know? I mean, I think, I think there's a little bit of a, probably a little bit of a, of a, um, um, um, a, a, a, a [00:58:00] jump, you know. Businesses definitely, uh, create cultures. Cultures create businesses. People really create the, the businesses and the cultures.

Mm-hmm. You know? Over- It's, it's, it's just really about the people. Mm-hmm. You know? Um, and that's the reason why, you know, some years back I c- I stopped investing in ideas and started investing in people with an idea, you know. Um, because it's the people that are gonna take the idea and animate it to a, a, a stage of success.

Um, but I, but I'm, I would generally concur with your, with, with your statement on that one. That's good. 

Nick Beyer: Continue on, on building your business. I mean, how, how did you even know on the, in the earlier middle stages, like, "This is how many clients I can have in a year?" 

Steve Graves: Yeah, yeah. Well, th- no, that's a, that's a perfect easy math question.

Because we had a composite scorecard, you know? And, like, could, could I make more money if, if I added another client? Yes. But guess what? [00:59:00] I couldn't... I wouldn't be home o- on the weekends or whatever. I remember early days, we bought an airplane, hired a couple pilots because our, our goal was we said, I, uh...

Finally, we just said, "Listen, we, we can't be gone all the time. We can't be traveling all the time." We had clients everywhere, and so all over the country, and some international. And so I, I remember Tom and I said, "Let's buy an airplane. This way, what we can do is we can have everybody home by, by, by, uh, s- by bedtime."

It, uh, certain... And so we said, "How many nights away a month can, can we?" And again, this is not prescriptive that everybody has to do this in the world. This was just us, our little pop stand that we had going on. So we hired, we hired a couple guys, and we had a number of guys coaching with us. And so we said, "Let's, we're gonna be gone seven, maybe seven nights a month max, okay?"

And so we... So what we would do is we would, we would, we would be busting out at 3:00 or 4:00 or 5:00, 6:00 in the morning going to Denver or going to Minneapolis or going somewhere, okay? And then we'd be coming home, you know, we'd get home, like, before midnight. And finally, you [01:00:00] know, w- I remember was, we say like, "Who's counting that as a night home?

Like, the kids aren't." You know, and the w- the, our spouses were not. Like, who, what? That's bad math. That's horrible math. Well, we c- typical founder, typical entrepreneurs trying to squeeze every math equation our way, you know? And so I remember we, we finally said, "Well, you know, I guess we're gonna have to kinda cut that back."

Well, we s- same with clients. We had, we, you know, we said, "We don't w- It, the, the squ- the juice is not worth the squeeze for us. And it's not because it wasn't worth the monetary, it wasn't the big picture of life. You know, we just, we just didn't wanna... We didn't... That wasn't that important. So we said, "Our lifestyle level is gonna be here, and we're comfortable with that."

You know, and that's what we're able to do. And so that was just the level, um... You know, a couple of our guys on our team right now carry a bigger load than I would have ever carried. They're probably just better than I am. They're probably just more capable than, than I am, um, at doing what I, I was doing at the time.

Um, you know, [01:01:00] we always had an, a, we always had a, a nonprofit, a global nonprofit in our portfolio, one at a time if we could, because it was a give back piece, you know? And so now those didn't make as, maybe as much money as some of our others, but that was part of our model. That was, that was the thing we were chasing.

So if we wanna make more money, just like kick that thing out and get a big payer in here. No, it's not what we wanna do. So being true and authentic to what we wanted to build was critical. Um, and you know, and it's been a fun ride. But it, it, I, you know, we... Through the years, we had to... I can remember back making some decisions to say yes or no, had our plane for a few years, but we, we invested in that to try to get an outcome, you know?

Um, and then after a few years decided we, we were gonna do a d- little something different. Um, but every business has strategic inflection points or intersections that you have to lead, lead the company through. 

Nick Beyer: And was there ever a moment during that where- [01:02:00] And I'm asking this genuinely as a business owner, and then there's gonna be other people who are listening to it that, that might have...

might be thinking the same way, where you're like, "Man, I should've started a different type of business- Yeah ... where I could scale it. 

Steve Graves: Yeah. 

Nick Beyer: Like, where, where it all wasn't all me. Yeah. I can only take six clients, five clients, 'cause it's only me. 

Steve Graves: Yeah. 

Nick Beyer: Like- 

Steve Graves: Yeah, yeah, you- 

Nick Beyer: Speak to that. 

Steve Graves: Yeah, yeah. You're, you're...

You actually, you actually just spoke to it. I'm just gonna repeat back what you said, okay? Some businesses are not designed to scale. Like, if you're a heart surgeon, you're not scaling that business. You're gonna do everything you can. Or a surgeon or a dentist, they'll, they'll, they'll con- engineer all these ways for them to make extra falloff, periphery money, but, like, the big money's when the heart guy walks in, I'm doing the surgery.

Now, you, you got people doing other pieces of it, but, like, if you wanna scale that, you gotta hire another heart surgeon. Mm. That's how you scale. Now, you can, again, you can boost your top line by propping up some supporting things, but if your model is not... If... You gotta figure out, [01:03:00] what's your mo- how's your model designed to scale?

Are you designed to scale? And if you're not, you gotta figure out what it is. You know, um, a, I wrote an article years ago, um, um, called The, A, The Bonfire on the Beach, and actually, Cameron, I used... I opened the story with when we used to take all you guys down to the Buffalo River, and we would do our canoe trips when you guys were really little.

And I remember we would build these bonfires on the, on the rock beaches back then. But here's the image. Founders and entrepreneurs are notorious is we'll start a fire, and we'll get a couple logs going, and then all of a sudden we'll say, "Oh, let's go start another fire." And we'll walk 100 yards down here, and we'll start another fire.

And then we'll say, "Oh, oh, go look here. We'll just go start another fire," and we'll walk 100 yards the other way. But guess what it takes to keep those fires going? We're running like a madman with our hair on fire back and forth with the lighter fluid trying to keep [01:04:00] them all going because none of them are really caught- There's no real, real integrity momentum in your business fire, your business offering.

So the point would be, make sure, make sure you have a bonfire with your real business. Do you really have customer offering finance flywheel momentum that, that you're in the pull stage, you got people calling you saying, "Hey, you know, would you, could you take us?" Everything's not in the push phase, "Hey, would you, would you look at me?

Hey, would you hire me? Would you hire me? Would you hire me?" Like, do you really have a bonfire going? Be careful to build oth- other little fires up and down the beach before you have a bonfire. To your question, do you have to perhaps design or engineer an add-on that can scale? Some businesses, if they don't scale, you, you create something else that could scale.

So go back to our heart clinic. If, if, if the only way to scale is to hire a heart surgeon, you don't wanna spend [01:05:00] $5 million for a new heart surgeon, sure. You can add some cardio, uh, uh, equipment and have everybody who's ever had a heart attack come here and do... And those are scalable, 'cause all you gotta do is have somebody to lead it, and equipment, and open it and shut d- lights on.

So that might be scalable. But again, your brand size is gonna tell you can you scale that. If you got a little, ol' bitty one hospital thing, if you're Cleveland Clinic Heart Center, guess what? You could probably brand out and do a bunch of those around. So the whole question of, you know- S- scaling and design is not easy for founders.

You know, um, m- m- my, my deal would be, would be this. Every business that, the, the way, one of the models that we operate with is every business has, is either in a zero to one, one to five, five to 500 stage. This has nothing to do with the size or the age of your business. It has to do with the stage of your business offering [01:06:00] relative to where the market is with its appetite for that.

Okay, now I know that sounded a little academic up here, but let's translate it, okay? Let's suppose I charge, I started a brand-new, um, um, ice cream store here in northwest Arkansas. Well, you know, I could start it, but let's suppose nobody had ever heard of frozen yogurt ever, ever, ever, and we were the first to the market with frozen yogurt.

Okay, well, m- my offering might scream me through zero to one. I might be, barely be stood up and barely even have my doors open until s- till customer three comes along and says, "Hey, can I, can I take this thing to, to Fort Smith?" And you say, "Well, well, well, I don't even know what you're talking about. Like you, have you ever eaten it yet?"

"No, but I know where there's zero frozen yogurt in Fort Smith, not one. I think I'd like to have the rights." Hmm. And you're like, "Well, okay." I might be in the, I might be in the five to 500 stage faster than I can blink. Okay? Or I might be grinding it out. [01:07:00] I might... There's some huge one to f- you know, one to five stage companies.

Part of the issue is figuring out, like am I really, am I good with where I am? Is my ambition pushing me to go somewhere I don't need to go? You know, is the mar- or if I don't make a move here, the market's gonna basically... Or the opposite, stay with the frozen yogurt. All of a sudden, you know, there are 15 frozen yogurt stores on College Avenue in our, in Fayetteville of northwest Arkansas.

I'm gonna open the 16th. Good luck, dude. You, I better have me some serious recipes going 'cause like the market probably is not gonna simply say, "Oh yeah, we need a number 16 for that particular offering." 

Cameron Clark: And you work with ambitious people all across the country, some of probably the most am- ambitious folks.

How do you- na- nature, nur- nurture ambition, um, and keep it in check, [01:08:00] but also use it, fuel it for growth. What's your opinion on that? 

Steve Graves: Yeah. Ambition, uh, is a really interesting topic, uh, Cameron. Uh, I come from it from a faith perspective because I, you know, my faith shapes and steers my, my world a lot. For a lot of people, ambition, it, it's, it's a very confusing kind of a cloudy topic.

For some people, as an extreme... I, I've seen people and known people that ambition, it's, it's kind of like, it's almost like porn. It's like they don't, they don't know what to do, so they're just like, "It, it's nothing but ugly and evil, and if I even get close to it, it's gonna destroy me, so I, I'm just like, no ambition.

No ambition. Better not have any am- there's no way ambition can be anything but evil and bad." Okay. Well, I don't think that's what... The, the scriptures teach that there's two kinds of ambition. There's godly ambition, and then there's self-centered, self-driven, self-fueled [01:09:00] ambition. If my ambition is only anchored inside my own soul, whether I'm a faith follower or not, you, you're probably gonna end up with some, some, some issues and some struggles.

Because my own appetite system, I mean, like, how many times have I sat down at an all you can eat catfish place and eaten a few many, a few too many pieces? Like- Mm ... you know, my own appetite system, it cannot be trusted all the time- Yeah, yeah ... forever, you know? Or, or I'm l- or the opposite. I don't wanna exercise, and so guess what?

I stay on the couch and watch something. I watch ESPN again, instead of getting up and running, okay? Ambition is neutral by itself. It needs to be harnessed to something bigger than itself. And so if my ambition is holistic, it's authentic, um, it's, it's anchored, for me, it's anchored to a faith basis that has p- some purity to it, or if my ambition is, [01:10:00] is anchored with my, my closest friends.

I've got some other people breathing in some accountability and some realness so that I'm not living by myself on an island with my ambition. You know, um, I, I need somebody to look at me and say, "Now, tell me again why you're, why you're launching something on the West Coast?" Well, I'd just like to fly to California.

Okay. Right. Have you talked to your, your wife and your six little kids about that? You know? And so, I mean, like, as long as... I- if my ambition is harnessed and tied and tethered to other things that can hold it in place, good deal. Mm-hmm. If my ambition is running reckless by itself, and everything else is just back in the, back in the wagon somewhere, good luck, dude.

That's, that's for me personally. I'm not saying any- Mm ... like, that's been my experience. You know, when I, when my ambition is unthrottled, and it is unharnessed, and it's running reckless by itself, like, I'm probably gonna have a wreck. Mm. You know? 

Nick Beyer: [01:11:00] How often, how often do you see that? How often are you slowing clients down versus speeding them up?

Steve Graves: Often. Often. Because we, we have a very ambitious world, and it's a very fast world, and things can, can grow so quickly, whatever, in, um, you know, and, and most entrepreneurs are, and they start at 40 miles an hour. Like, they, they, we, we come in hot. We come in fast. We... Big appetites. We, you know, s- what I, what I call big brain, big motor, big heart.

You know? And that's what, that's the people we work with, big brain, big motor, big heart. Well, guess what? They're gonna wanna go fast. And so slowing down sometimes is- is- is pretty critical. Um, the problem becomes is how do you... It's one thing to do that personally. It's another thing to slow your company down.

What if you have investors? Mm. You know? I mean, like, that's, that's a deal. Um, and sometimes you gotta, you gotta go slow to go fast. You slow down for a season to get everything ready, and then you [01:12:00] kinda, you do the, "Here we go," you know? 

Cameron Clark: Well, let's, let's, let's talk about today, talk about Cornerstone today.

Um, when does, when does someone know, "Hey, I think I need to call Cornerstone. I think I need to like... They're... I need this, and I think Cornerstone's probably the right fit for me, style's the right fit for me"? 

Steve Graves: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, there's a lot of offerings. There's a lot of coaching, uh, offerings. A lot of times people, um, you know, figuring out, do I need a mentor, do I need a consultant, do I need a coach, do I need a counselor, do I need a good friend?

Can I just call my pastor? Can I call my buddy that I play golf and fishing with? Can I just process my next business move with them? Those are all wonderful options, you know. Um, and then if you decide you want a coach or a, a, a formal consulting or coaching model, then you... You know, do I want a one-on-one coach or a group Vistage kind of a thing or whatever.

So there's, [01:13:00] there's all kind of offerings. Ours is a one-on-one, like does a founder or CEO or business owner want somebody to climb into the circle with them and help them kind of carry the heaviness, loneliness, and the noisiness of being a leader, and answer the handful of questions, um, and then, and then actually, you know, execute through those questions, you know, um, to the other side of them?

And, and that's, you know, if, if... And so, you know, if somebody's just saying, you know, "I keep asking my question, should I scale? Should I scale? Should I scale? Should I take on business partners? Should I take on outside investments? You know, should I get out of my business partners, and should I start my own thing?

Should I... Is it a transition? Is it a dilemma? You know, um, is it an upgrade? I need to really m- merge with somebody else and go to the next level." Those are kind of the, the kind of questions that typically will initiate an initial phone call or initial conversation. Um, I literally got a, looked at an [01:14:00] email this morning from a, a person that, um, lives in our region, not right here, but let's call it our 200-mile region, and they wanna, um, they'd like to have a conversation 'cause they just bought out some partners.

And, uh, uh, uh, it's a husband and wife team, and they're gonna probably go on another run to scale another business model, and, you know, so we'll probably chat with them and, um, and, you know, and just see if there's a fit. It, it's, it's, it's not, it's not a... If you can answer it yourself, you're gonna do it.

Cameron Clark: Yeah. 

Steve Graves: I mean, you're, you're an entrepreneur, man. You don't have time to... You don't need hand-holding really. We all want, we all want to hand hold inspirationally. Like, eventually we all, when we fall down and we're bleeding and we're, and, and we're tired, and it's been a horrible Friday, and we lost a big account, and there's somebody said lawsuit, and we're like, "Oh my goodness," like, "You gotta be kidding me," you know?

Like, like, it'd be great to have [01:15:00] a, you know, a friend we could go grab a beer with and, like, hold that hand. But, like, if you can answer your strategic questions and you're clear, most founders and owners, it- it's, it's what I call certainty and clarity, okay? How certain are you and how clear are you? If you're certain and clear, you're gone, man.

You, you're, you're, you're out of here. You got it. If you're uncertain and you're un- and you're, and you're unclear, if you don't have clarity and certainty, and something, someone can climb in the circle with you and help you on some big strategic items, that's kind of when people usually call us. 

Cameron Clark: Yep. Yeah.

And so the next couple years for Cornerstone, you and the team, what do they, what do you hope that they look like? Um, is anything new on the horizon? Or just, it's the, I mean, it seems like the model is there, and just kinda keep building on, on what's been done. But- Yeah ... curious if there's anything you'd add to that.

Steve Graves: Yeah, no, we- it was really funny. We, we had a [01:16:00] little meeting the other day with everybody, and we have another one coming up in about a month to, to try to map out kind of our next couple of years. You know, I th- I think we're, uh, we're definitely gonna be continuing to grow a little bit. But we're not, back to your question, N- Nick, we're not overly, um, you know, like just gotta scale, gotta scale, gotta scale.

How fast can we add somebody in Nashville and Austin? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's just not what we wanna do. You know, we wanna just kinda grow with a solid team that we just love doing work together and life together, and then as opportunities come, we might add another person or two in certain markets.

Um, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna tweak our s- we got some offerings that we're doing. Like, we're doing a lot of family office business, and have... I always had one or two family office clients, um, periodically, but Ben Cashin has just gotten in, just he does so much family office work. I mean, like r- incredibly great family office work.

And so we're building all the m- mechanics and [01:17:00] machinery and the, and the models around that. Kyle's doing a ton of family business stuff, and, and, and l- last, spent the last couple years doing a lot of focus around family business dynamics, G1, G2 transfer. Um, G2 starting new businesses off the tailwinds and the- That's a good point

momentum- Mm-hmm ... of G1. Maybe not just taking the business and, and doing it like dad did it or mom did it, but taking the, the, the, the legacy and launching something that was more passionate and close to their calling. Sure. Kyle's doing a lot of that. Uh, you know, uh, Dave's got a high potential thing he's working a cohort working on.

So we, I mean, we've got some new things that we're doing. And so probably, Cameron, to practice our own, our medicine a little bit here, I think we're probably gonna just be filling out, um, filling out the framework over the next couple of years even a little bit more with, uh, with all the s- all the offerings that we have- Yeah

and testing those out. [01:18:00] Um, we have a couple, a couple of our cohorts are through the test cycle, and we're scaling those, and they're great. Um- But you know, we're just kind of head down doing our business. You know, we're not, we're not a real public-facing company because that's not our model. Like, you can't, you don't go around listing all your clients saying, "Here's all the people we work with."

Yeah. You just, it's just not, it's just not kind of kosher. And so there has to be a little bit of a mystery to it. But n- not, not 'cause we're trying to play hide and seek, but it's just because you can't... We just don't talk about it. If our clients want to talk about it, they can. Great. Yeah. They can talk about anything, but we just don't go around talking about it.

So, there's not a public-facing piece to it to speak of. 

Nick Beyer: How many CEOs, founders, owners do you think you've worked with over the last 40 years? 

Steve Graves: Hundreds upon hundreds- Okay ... upon hundreds upon hundreds. 

Nick Beyer: What are some of the most common mistakes? If you had to summarize it, if you had to theme them up, what, what are some of those themes?

A 

Steve Graves: lot of them, [01:19:00] I, you know, I don't know, Nick. I need to think about that a little bit more, but a lot of them are the things we just talked about. And they're tools or insights that we developed after the fact, like the two voices. You know, that was, that came out of working with hundreds of- of- of founders, realizing that there are these two voices that are just always floating around or whatever.

Um, you know, f- figuring out your footing and, and making sure that you're growing who you are at the same rate of your business or your enterprise, uh, and that opportunity is th- is really critical. And so if- if you're, if you're not growing who you are, but your business thing is growing proportionately way faster than you're growing as a leader and as a person and as a, a man or a human or whatever, a team leader, CEO, bus- whatever, then- then you're gonna, there's gonna be a reckoning experience somewhere.

Because this is going to im- this is going to have [01:20:00] inputs that require you to speak in or lead at a level you're not capable of. So, it's really important you grow who you are. Hence hiring a coach, getting in a learning group, a master class, a Vistage, whatever. Reading a book, going to a talk somewhere or catching a TED Talk, something.

It's really important that you grow who you are at the same rate. And if you can, grow faster than this. Because, you know, you'll never be disappointed if you're growing who you are as a leader, as a delegator, as an empowerer, as a vision caster, as- as somebody who knows how to spot talent and hire talent.

You know, um, uh, if you don't know how to fire and you really are not good at the hard parts of- of leadership, then learn how to do that. If you don't, you're just gonna be dragging that into the bigger format over here. So that, that would be a, that would be an insight that would be really, really important.

You know, and then, um- Um, [01:21:00] you know, probably the other one just off the cuff, and I, 'cause I haven't spent any time thinking about it, but, like, there, there's so many opportunities in the market today to do so many things. And so, uh, I'm not saying, I'm not saying don't stay focused with what you're doing.

But, you know, the old day of, like, picking a lane and staying in the lane till your, till you get your retirement watch 60 years later, I mean, like, those days are gone even at the big, you know, Fortune 100 companies. And so, you know, I mean, be, you know, be open and, and listen to the market and your own heart and, you know, the people at the council around you, whatever, and just, you know, make changes where you need to and can with your business, your trajectory, your offering, your customers, 'cause stuff changes so fast these days, you know?

Um, you know, I mean, I, I, I will forever, uh, I will always remember, you know, the Kodak example, and I know you guys [01:22:00] know this, but, like, you know, Kodak is one of the top 10 brands or 20 brands in the world when it, when it fell off the cliff, and it fell off the cliff because it had a whole bunch of really, really capable, incredibly experienced, intelligent people that had their head down doing nothing but executing and checking off the to-do list.

They had... They weren't... They didn't have their head up saying, "What's going on in the real world around me?" 

Cameron Clark: Yeah. 

Steve Graves: You know? And so all of a sudden somebody comes in with digital photos and all that, and it's like, "Well, it doesn't matter. We're gonna keep printing out film." And it's kind of like- ... good luck with that, dude.

And so- ... because the world's changing so much, make sure you're, make sure you're up, and, and AI is a perfect way to stay aware of what's going on. So just stay aware of what's happening in your world, and make sure you're staying true with your own calling and your own mission and your own passion. What's the life you want to have?

I just turned 70 last December, okay? Where do you wanna be when you're 70? Like, what, like, what chair you wanna be [01:23:00] sitting at, at what desk, in what setting, with what people, doing what thing, at what speed, and all that stuff. Like, map it out, and then to the best of your abilities, get on down that path.

Nick Beyer: Mm-hmm. One last question from me before... You, you can keep going, Cam. But, um, you talked about having ownership or being part of other businesses. Are, are there any of those that- Um, one you're really excited about, or two, that you've been really learning from. All the things that we're talking about- 

Steve Graves: Yeah

Nick Beyer: the frameworks, like, that you're like, "Man, in this business, in the past two years, this framework has really come to life for me." 

Steve Graves: Yeah. Yeah. That, I, it, again, hard question for me, 'cause they all come flooding up. Everybody, "Pick me, pick me." You know, they all- ... they all do that. Uh, you know, I've had the real privilege, um, and fun honor of joining, um, uh, Justin Whaley and his family in a company called Fulcrum, and it's a holding company of CPG companies.[01:24:00] 

So we have some CPG brands underneath a holding company, and I'm part owner in that, and I'm the executive chairman of our board. And, um, we have a CEO, Doug Beatty is our CEO, and he's awesome. We, uh, he's just... And Doug's, uh, Doug's an awesome CEO, and Justin is a incredible, good, solid business partner as well.

And, um, but that business has been a really fun framework for me to play a little bit of a different role and to learn a lot, and to put some stuff back into execution. Because we've been able to reinvent a l- a, a, you know, a, an, a, a family company, uh, a while, uh, for some time, kind of into, um, a little bit more of a competitive opportunity, uh, to, to be in.

And, um, a little bit of a bigger footprint, great people, great team. But all the practices of hiring the right people and getting the right team, and you never go higher than your talent, and just all that stuff is, is... I mean, it's really true. It's really true. And so that's been a, that's been a really [01:25:00] rewarding, fun opportunity that, um, you know, that, that, that Justin has, uh, afforded me in the last, you know, four or five years, for sure.

Been a ton of fun. 

Cameron Clark: Mm-hmm. Last two questions for you. We ask every guest at the end. Um, number one, why build a business here in Northwest Arkansas? 

Steve Graves: Um, you know, because the world is, is tethered to Northwest Arkansas, and the world comes to Northwest Arkansas. And, uh, I know it's exaggerated, and I know I'm bullish because I live here, but the number of times I have, um, I have talked about Northwest Arkansas when I'm somewhere else...

And I'm talking about being in a hotbed somewhere else, like Silicon Valley at, at, at a really im- a really important spot, you know, or just pick somewhere, Austin, anywhere. The number of times that I talk about Northwest Arkansas and, and it's, it's, [01:26:00] it's not, "What? What are you talking about?" Like, "Y'all still eating biscuits over there?"

I mean, you know, it's kinda like... It's, it's p- the, the world knows that our, the thought leadership around retail, and then all the things that touch retail, every possible thing from supply chain, to manufacturing, to logistics, to whatever, so all the leadership stuff. So Northwest Arkansas is just a, it's just a hotbed, like I mentioned ear- It's a hotbed of thought leadership in so many areas.

Um, um, I literally was in New York not long ago, and I had somebody ask me, "Hey, have you ever read Sam Walton's story?" And I looked back at them and said, "Do you know where I live?" And they said, "Well, not really." And I said, "I live in Northwest Arkansas." And then it just took off from there. Just took off from there, you know?

Yeah. And so that, that, that would be my answer. It's just, you know, th- this is not a, this is not a place that we're just trying to promote, but we don't have really, we don't have the [01:27:00] goods behind it, and we really hope nobody comes and checks it out. You know, um, you've heard it a million times, but it is so true.

In the early days, all the vendor teams had so much trouble. They, they could find people, and they could economically create the package to get them here, but they, but when they would come and do their visits, they would come and do their visits, and they were like... And the spouse would say, "I'm not moving to that place.

What are you talking about? We're not... No. No, we're not moving there." And so they'd finally talk somebody into coming, and then all of a sudden it's like, "We're not leaving. No, we're not going back. We're not-" Mm-hmm ... "going to Cincinnati or wherever." Mm-hmm. And so it's just, it's people, people move here because of the business engine- 

Cameron Clark: Mm-hmm

Steve Graves: going on, as well as the, the lifestyle and the, the level of enjoyment. 

Cameron Clark: And then how do you define success? 

Steve Graves: Yeah, great, great one. You know, um, as I mentioned earlier You know, I'm not a one-dimensional success, uh, [01:28:00] definition person. You know, I'm a composite scorecard. Um, I, I, I can't define success only with my business, but I can't define it only with my family or only with my spouse or only...

I have a 95-year-old mom that my wife and I are still kind of taking care of and, and, and, and loving on and all that. I got six, almost seven grandkids that, that need a little bit of Pops time, you know? And then I got a whole bunch of business partners and business things in the middle. And so for me, it's, it's more of a, you know, the things in life that I feel like I'm called to do and I'm assigned to participate in, not just the opportunities that swirl around me, but the real things.

I mean, I had, I had to learn how to say no 25 years ago, which is not easy for me. 

Cameron Clark: Mm. 

Steve Graves: But I learned how to, I had to learn how to say no. And so, you know, saying no to, to good opportunities and ideas is hard. But being able to know what it is that I've painted out in my life as [01:29:00] the targets for me to, to walk toward, and then, um, you know, just try to stay focused and disciplined and, um, be a good steward of those things.

If I'm that and I'm a good steward of my journey toward those targets, um, you know, that's kind of, that's, that's the basis for me. And again, I, I hate to sound like a preacher here, but for my, my faith shapes everything. So for me, there is a f- there's a faith element to success that has to come into, to my story and my scorecard for me.

Um, so my spiritual journey is part of my, my thing as well. 

Cameron Clark: Man. Well, thanks, Steve. And, uh- 

Steve Graves: Oh, yeah, tons of fun. Sorry for the blabbing. No, you're- I'll, I'll, I'll blab all day long. 

Nick Beyer: That's good. 

Cameron Clark: That's why we're here. 

Nick Beyer: Yeah. So the last thing we do on every episode is highlight the big themes that we learn, we think the people who listen to this episode are gonna learn.

And I think the first one that's been really clear throughout the whole episode is that you have great vision. You have a great vision [01:30:00] for what the company was when you started, and it seems like almost 40 years later, it's the same vision, and that's unique. It's very unique. And, uh, I think that's something we can all learn from, being inundated with noise, with podcasts, with, uh, LinkedIn posts, whatever, people sending us stuff, "Hey, have you thought about this?"

Just having a vision and, and being able to walk step by step, um, through it. Really awesome. I think the second one is just wisdom, being wise. Um, you know, you've, you've had almost four decades to do this, and that's, like, exactly what we need. We're in the early throes of entrepreneurship. A bunch of people listening to this might be in the early throes or the middle throes.

And to be, be, be able to, be able to listen to someone who's walked into some of those situations- Um, had failures, had successes. I mean, it was really cool to hear you talk about a couple of those times [01:31:00] that you tried to scale and it didn't work, and now what's different about this time and, and, and actually working.

Um, that's wisdom, and that's really cool to learn from. And I think the s- the third one that was the most clear for me, that I feel the most conviction on as an entrepreneur, is this word steady. It almost just felt like this whole conversation you just had a steady hand just pushing along at the right pace.

And I think for every entrepreneur, every business owner, every founder, every leader in an organization, that's probably not a word that we would raise our hand and say, "Yep, I'm a steady person." And, you know, if you're thinking about coaching, I think that even is... That is a reason to do it, right? To have some steadiness, to have someone in the boat with you, to...

in the room with you. Um, I know that I've benefited from that. And so I think just really, really theming those up, um, w- we learned a lot today. I think people who listen to this episode are gonna learn a lot today, so thanks, Steve, for your time. 

Steve Graves: Thanks for letting me join you guys. 

Nick Beyer: Absolutely. Yes, a 

Steve Graves: [01:32:00] lot of fun.

Cameron Clark: Steve, how can people reach out to you, Cornerstone? What do they do? 

Steve Graves: Uh, you know, there's a couple of websites. Uh, you can, you can get most of my content on stephenrgraves.com. Mm-hmm. You know, and then our Cornerstone site. And, um, you know, buy books places. I don't... Whatever. Yeah. Call Celeste. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know how people reach me. Well, thanks, Steve. Thank you. Always. 

Nick Beyer: Tons of fun. It's awesome