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Good morning Grid Connections listeners.

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Welcome back to Grid Connections, the podcast where we explore all things transportation,
clean energy, and our power grid connecting all of these systems together.

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The U.S.

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auto industry is at a crossroads with new tariffs shaking up supply chains, domestic
automakers retrenching, and EV adoption evolving.

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We sit down with veteran journalist John Voelcker, host of Tempting Fate Tours and
contributor to Car and Driver, Inside EVs, Soon Wired, and many more to make sense of it

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all.

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In this episode, we break down the real impact of tariffs on vehicle prices and supply
chain, the state of EV charging and why Ionna new charging network could be a game

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changer, whether plug-in hybrids are the best of both worlds or just a regulatory
workaround.

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What's next for affordable EVs and how automakers are adjusting their global strategies.

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If you're an electric vehicle enthusiast, policy wonk, or just a curious car fan, this
episode is packed with insights you won't want to miss.

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Enjoy this episode.

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Please do us a favor.

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Share this with at least one person who would love this conversation and drop us a review
on your favorite podcast platform.

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It really does help.

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Also stay ahead of the curve.

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Sign up for our brand new Grid Connections newsletter to get the latest insights straight
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link in today's show notes and with all that enjoy.

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All right, John, I know we've got a few different topics we want to cover today, but

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just even some short term thoughts on where some of this stuff might be going.

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Sure.

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And your question is perfectly timed because I actually had to write a piece this morning
for a newsletter all about tariffs.

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So it's very top of mind.

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I should say right off the bat, I am no longer making any kind of predictions about any
kind of US politics.

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There's no win.

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But what I wrote and what I think is important for people to understand.

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is that above all else, the auto industry globally, but in North America in this
particular case, craves above all else, regulatory consistency because they make bets that

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are measured in hundreds of millions to billions of dollars on new car platforms, new
engines or electric power trains, new...

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production plants, new segments, new vehicles that get renewed every five to seven years.

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These are all really long launch, very expensive bets.

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Auto industry isn't actually that profitable compared to a bunch of stuff like consumer
electronics, which is why Apple would have been idiotic to go into the car business as I

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hope their board told them.

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So what they want is to know

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the regulatory landscape that will affect what the cars that are that they're going to
build in the next five to 10 years.

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Beyond 10 years, you can't really project.

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And in terms of emissions, they haven't had that for 20 years because think about the
second Bush administration from 2000 to 2008.

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And they slow walked

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new gas mileage regulations, even after the Supreme Court decided that CO2 was a pollutant
that the EPA not only could, but had to regulate.

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And so in October 2008, before that election, they had no idea what the regulations were
affecting the fuel usage of the vehicles that they could start selling on January 2nd,

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2011.

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That's insane.

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that keeps CEOs and CFOs and lead engineers up at night because they literally didn't know
what fuel economy and emission standards they had to meet.

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So one of the things the Obama administration did in addition to restructuring two of the
three domestic makers is lock EPA, NHTSA, CARB, and the automakers into a conference room,

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metaphorically, and

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say don't come out until you have settled on a set of regulations that everybody buys
into.

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In that case, for the 2012 to 2018 regs, the automakers weren't in a great position since
two of the three of them had just been restructured out of bankruptcy.

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But then the second Obama administration did the same thing for 2019 through 2025, and
then Trump got elected and he promptly attempted to reverse all of that.

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And then Biden got elected and he put it back and put another truncheon of regulations in.

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And now Trump is vowing to reverse all of that again.

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This stuff makes auto executives nutty.

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And now it's happening in tariffs.

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If you think about NAFTA, which we had, that was a new set of rules.

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It was signed off by everyone.

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And automakers will build whatever they need to build to stay legal.

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in whatever places they feel will be the least cost and most appropriate for their
markets, right?

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NAFTA set the rules.

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The first Trump administration made a lot of noise about, in fact, how awful this was, but
the USMCA trade agreement that emerged, which is essentially son of NAFTA, didn't change a

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massive amount of stuff, but it did

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alter the rules slightly.

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I think there were some domestic content requirements that went up.

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The automakers who pay their lobbyists really well got some tweaks they wanted.

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In the end, has happened.

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Everything moved along.

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Now, all of a sudden, here we come in with tariffs.

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Under both NAFTA and the USMCA, the Detroit two and a half, as I now call them,

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have moved production of some vehicles, especially the least expensive ones, to Mexico and
they still produce in Canada, which has been part of the North American production world

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for many decades.

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Yes, on the campaign trail, our current president said we're going to impose tariffs.

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Given the general consensus among pretty much every reputable economist that an overall
tariff war is destructive to trade, increases costs, etc., etc., cost to consumers, I

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don't know that anyone really believed that they were going to do it, but lo and behold,
bang, the tariffs dropped.

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25 % on Mexico 25 % on Canada and the auto industry I Think was deeply unhappy would be
the polite way to say this but basically the auto industry said

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Would you say they were unhappy or do you think they were genuinely surprised?

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Or both?

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I haven't spoken to their C-suites of late.

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And so I can't really say, you know, there is an old saying, that when an absolutist tells
you what he is going to do, you should believe him.

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And, you know, possibly by about November 10th, they should have been making preparations
for that.

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don't know.

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but here we were with Tarifs.

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The auto industry had stock, and this is not just cars by the way, this is parts.

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There are immense amounts of parts.

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Yeah.

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For those listening, we've got this great infographic.

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I'll try and attach into the show notes, but essentially it's showing kind of the path and
supply chain impacts of the domestic automotive industry.

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And just even making something as simple as kind of like a piston or a rod in this case
about just how one simple part can bounce back and forth between the U S Canada and Mexico

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a couple of times.

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Right.

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And combustion engines are now so sophisticated and to such high tolerances that not
everybody can make a conrod.

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And so automakers are going to focus their part sourcing on the people who have the best
and highest quality results and shipping of parts, especially something small like a

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conrod, isn't that expensive across borders compared to getting the highest quality.

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from your finished engine.

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And I'm sure they have entire floors full of accountants who measure the cost of these,
minimize cost and trade it off against getting the highest quality parts.

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But the point really was to point out that tariffs don't just affect vehicles, they also
affect a ton of parts that go into those vehicles.

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And there is a study out there by something called Anderson Consulting Group.

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And I have, I should point out, I have had my disputes with that group over some of their
EV cost studies, but they estimated that the tariffs as imposed 25 % on anything from

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Mexico, 25 % on anything from Canada, could add up to $12,000 to vehicle cost on some
vehicles imported from Mexico or Canada.

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The average vehicle price.

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is about $48,000.

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It has stayed there for three years if you sales weight it.

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and I don't mean to interrupt you, but I think it's such a great call out to say that's
vehicle combustion or electric, that it is around that $48,000 point, which is pretty

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wild.

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Yeah, and so you are looking at adding a quarter of that cost on top because the
automakers are not going to pay that cost.

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They'll pay it, but it has to be passed on to the consumer, which is why tariffs are
considered so incredibly inflationary.

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So that's basically the background on tariffs.

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One note that I hadn't known until recently was that there is a separate set of tariffs on
steel and aluminum.

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and those stack on the automotive ones.

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So in fact, if you're importing steel, that's 25 % more expensive and your car is too.

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it's just, as someone who's covered the auto industry for a while now, it's incredibly
disruptive.

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And I don't necessarily think,

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The auto industry is inherently averse to on-shoring.

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I think we all learned starting with COVID five years ago that you need certain things.

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You need the ability to produce them in your own country, right?

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And there was a lot of focus on that in the last administration, including on batteries,
both cell production and some of the other stuff for electric cars.

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mostly carrots, incentives, cost reductions, subsidies, not sticks, which is what tariffs
are.

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So industrial policy broadly and on-shoring as a national security measure are reasonable
policy goals.

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People may differ, but you can't do them in a month.

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And the auto industry, especially if in fact it has to move production of a vehicle from
Mexico to somewhere

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in the 50 states can't do that in six weeks.

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We're talking, I would say, a minimum of 18 months up to three or four years, depending on
the vehicle, whether they have a plant with capacity, whether they have skilled workers

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who can actually build the thing, et cetera, et cetera.

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So tariffs are generally considered inflationary, but the auto industry can and will
respond

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to whatever regulations are imposed on it once their lobbyists get done doing what they
do, which is fight against all regulations of any kind on any product, business process or

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service.

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That's sort of wired into the DNA of the auto industry to fight all regulations forever.

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But when you finally end up with regulations, they will build to those regulations, but it
takes a long time.

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And the way this has come

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down from the current administration is almost maximally disruptive if in fact the tariffs
stay.

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I have had people say they don't think the tariffs will stay or there will be carve outs
for specific companies or maybe it's only tariffs on things that don't comply with USMCA,

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which of course most of the auto industry does.

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So I'm not going to predict, but

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it's also so hard to keep up with all this happening right now.

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Cause I personally am professional.

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I've been super busy the last month was kind of starting a new business and looking to buy
a house, all this fun stuff.

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And what's really interesting is I believe, and you may know this better, especially if
you just wrote about, weren't the tariffs, wasn't there a carve out for the tariffs for

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domestic automotive makers for a month pushed out or what?

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Okay.

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Yes.

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what the off the top of your head with the new like cutoff date is for the automotive
industry for those tariffs?

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want to say it's...

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yeah I was gonna say like the first 10, 12, 14 days of April because I think it was March
12th when they were originally gonna come in which is two days from now.

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Again, you know, the current president historically has said many things and like Mr.

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Musk some of them are true when he says them, some of them are

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Proving false when he says them and a lot of them may be true at some point in the future
But are not true at the time he says them they are Aspirations, so we'll see where it all

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ends up

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for sure.

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And I think we'll leave it at that because as I agree with you, let's try not to predict
anything because it'll easily be wrong probably before the time this goes live anyway,

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which is only in a couple of days.

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But I think one thing I do want to kind of take a step back.

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mean, and first, yeah, thank you kind of that great context of the where we've kind of
gone to with tariffs and how this plays into North America specifically.

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I think what's really interesting too is

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And that is a, and you also kind of bring up the counterpoint is like, yes, there will be
increased prices.

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The hope is that this will ensure more jobs and that should in some ways.

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Counter things out, yada, yada, yada.

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We won't get into that.

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We'll see what happens.

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It's kind of where we landed in the end.

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But what I think is really interesting is as you even said, the Detroit 2.5, obviously all
of these automakers don't just build in North America.

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They build globally and

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One of the things that kind of stood out to me is when you were talking about, especially
with the history of income, the Bush era with the MPGs and how that's kind of evolved

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under Obama and then kind of keeps going back and forth over the last couple of
administrations.

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I've heard from a lot of people kind of say more and more.

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That's like, yeah, we do have to follow these rules, but even the fact is we're global
companies.

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And so there's some stuff we can kind of do for the North American market that makes sense
for the short term.

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But given all the designs and everything we have to build anyway,

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It's becoming more and more, have to meet global standards.

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And so while there is maybe the jobs component for some of this, like where they're built,
as far as like making more fuel efficient vehicles or more making electric vehicles, they

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have to kind of build these global car programs anyway, that they're kind of like, well,
we're just going to keep building these.

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Some of them may not come to the U S immediately or take longer time.

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I mean, how do you look at that?

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Or what do you think of that?

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As far as the larger global impact and obviously Europe and China kind of being further
along in some regards for electric vehicle adoption and roll out a product that I

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personally am starting to think more and more like I'm just not convinced with these
because of the needs globally that the changes back and forth between administrations like

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we kind of see really have that large of an impact.

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There is definitely some sourcing and material stuff on the back end for sure that needs
to be figured out that these can have an impact but

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As far as the actual products that are being delivered to customers or being available to
customers domestically, do you think that even with like rolling back as some of this

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stuff around the actual, whether it be MPG or whatever metric you want to use for the
efficiency to measure these new vehicles, do you think just inherently we're just going to

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see more electric vehicles and even plug in hybrids domestically?

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I think there's no question we will see more electric vehicles.

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Plug-in hybrids are their own topic, which we can cover in a minute.

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But the question is really the pace of the change.

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The US...

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that's a great point.

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guess that's what I'm trying to allude to is like, at this point, does it really matter
between administration administration versus when these companies have to build globally

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for the most part anyway?

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Well, but remember, I think the important context here is that increasingly the Detroit
2.5 have migrated away from building vehicles that are saleable globally because by far

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their most profitable vehicles, which are full size pickup trucks, the Ford F series being
the best selling vehicle line in America for 40 years or whatever it is, you know.

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Those vehicles have gotten so big, they are unsellable in most of the rest of the world.

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And so when your most profitable product is really only restricted to North America and a
handful of other small markets, know, the Mideast, fine.

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But, you know, you in essence have walked away from the rest of the world.

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GM sold it to European operations.

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They're going back selectively now with electric.

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right.

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GM's sales in China have more than halved in the last five years.

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Ford still has a European presence, mostly building cars that they no longer sell here.

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And I think the crossover is the Mustang and the Mach-E.

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And Ford was never anywhere in China.

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And Stellantis is the one that has the largest operations outside North America.

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because it essentially matched a European maker into an Italo-American maker.

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But again, Stellantis makes its money off Jeeps and Ram pickup trucks, and the rest of it
is essentially irrelevant.

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And they don't sell Ram pickup trucks outside North America, and the Jeeps that they sell
have some crossover to what's sold in the States, but not entirely.

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Yeah.

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00:19:59,503 --> 00:20:02,383
ain't seen a bunch of grand Wagoneers in Europe.

201
00:20:02,763 --> 00:20:04,537
So, you know.

202
00:20:04,537 --> 00:20:07,027
have sworn I saw a dually last time I was in the UK.

203
00:20:07,027 --> 00:20:08,471
Maybe I was a...

204
00:20:08,903 --> 00:20:14,547
You can, I mean, sort of startled.

205
00:20:14,547 --> 00:20:24,674
saw three separate Ram 1500s in the Netherlands, but you know, they're incredibly
unpleasant to drive and you are making a point by driving those vehicles.

206
00:20:24,674 --> 00:20:27,577
They're also incredibly expensive to drive.

207
00:20:27,577 --> 00:20:33,091
So especially in those countries that tax by weight, by fuel consumption and the rest.

208
00:20:33,091 --> 00:20:35,482
you know,

209
00:20:36,953 --> 00:20:38,763
There is the globalization thing.

210
00:20:38,763 --> 00:20:48,256
think GM is probably furthest forward in that they have designed their Ultium platform to
be a global platform.

211
00:20:48,256 --> 00:20:53,027
They have Chinese versions of it, even as their sales in China plummet.

212
00:20:53,027 --> 00:20:57,669
They intended to have a full lineup of Ultium vehicles in China.

213
00:20:58,509 --> 00:21:00,109
They are now going up market.

214
00:21:00,109 --> 00:21:01,650
They are more Cadillacs.

215
00:21:01,650 --> 00:21:05,997
I've always maintained the Celestic, the $300,000 Cadillac sedan.

216
00:21:05,997 --> 00:21:12,191
is way more about China than it is about the US.

217
00:21:13,232 --> 00:21:17,835
Ford's electric vehicle strategy is a little less clear.

218
00:21:18,215 --> 00:21:23,459
They have two vehicles in Europe that are actually built on Volkswagen EV underpinnings.

219
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:35,729
They rethought their North American EV program because Farley said, we're not going to
sell any EVs that we can't be net profitable on within 12 months.

220
00:21:35,729 --> 00:21:42,304
which meant that their three row battery electric SUV got killed.

221
00:21:42,304 --> 00:21:44,572
so Ford's in a quiet period right now.

222
00:21:44,572 --> 00:21:47,188
I'm gonna be very curious to see what they are bringing out.

223
00:21:47,188 --> 00:21:52,382
The one thing they've talked about in 2027 is a battery electric midsize pickup.

224
00:21:52,382 --> 00:21:55,454
And that should be, or a small pickup, and that should be interesting.

225
00:21:55,588 --> 00:22:01,178
Well, that's kind of evolved too, because originally it was going to be like the next
generation, like F-150 Lightning.

226
00:22:01,178 --> 00:22:03,673
Like it was supposed to be a pretty big step forward.

227
00:22:03,673 --> 00:22:09,242
And now as far as I understand, they've kind like, well, it will be a step forward, but
it's not going to be of that same size.

228
00:22:09,381 --> 00:22:17,498
Yeah, it's big trucks and the things people in North America do with big trucks are a
tough problem for battery electrics.

229
00:22:17,498 --> 00:22:30,739
There is more low hanging fruit and for to its credit, the whole Ford Pro thing where they
are working on upping the revenue they get from fleet services because they have a bigger

230
00:22:30,739 --> 00:22:36,132
footprint in fleet than anyone else, includes electric vehicles.

231
00:22:36,934 --> 00:22:38,725
I was surprised to see

232
00:22:38,725 --> 00:22:48,598
I went and researched a story on electric aircraft and the entire airport has Mach-Es as
support vehicles.

233
00:22:48,598 --> 00:23:02,042
There's some E-Transit vans and there's some F-150 Lightnings and a bunch of other
electric stuff too because the fleet buyers understand total cost of ownership and EVs win

234
00:23:02,042 --> 00:23:03,903
in a lot of circumstances.

235
00:23:03,943 --> 00:23:04,679
But.

236
00:23:04,679 --> 00:23:11,839
Back to the globalization thing, it's easier to globalize an EV because you don't have to
test it for emissions, right?

237
00:23:11,839 --> 00:23:14,139
If we're talking about a real electric vehicle.

238
00:23:14,879 --> 00:23:28,259
But in most of the rest of the world, which is to say Europe and South America, the
vehicles that are EVs here, which is what we call compact crossovers, which are the size

239
00:23:28,259 --> 00:23:34,583
of a midsize crossover 20 years ago, are at the top end of the market.

240
00:23:34,583 --> 00:23:39,469
and there simply are not yet 20 or $25,000 EVs.

241
00:23:39,469 --> 00:23:51,903
And South America, frankly, is the least likely market to electrify big anytime soon, just
because it's a much less expensive market in general.

242
00:23:51,903 --> 00:23:56,447
And China is in the process of saying to the foreigners, serve your purpose, go home now.

243
00:23:57,666 --> 00:24:04,552
No, I think you actually have some really good interesting points to kind of what I was
saying too, because I feel like I guess maybe I should preface.

244
00:24:04,552 --> 00:24:06,894
I think like you go back 18 months.

245
00:24:06,894 --> 00:24:12,878
That was kind of the thought was like, especially Stellantis was kind of positioning like,
well, we'll have the product.

246
00:24:12,878 --> 00:24:18,803
The global products will be like this Stellantis small car, this Stellantis medium car and
the Stellantis large vehicle.

247
00:24:18,803 --> 00:24:25,988
And then within each market, it'll be kind of rebadged and yada yada yada, which pretty
much to some extent all automakers are doing.

248
00:24:26,149 --> 00:24:27,890
But the

249
00:24:27,980 --> 00:24:35,536
fact with like North America, especially you are just seeing this kind of taking a step
back and retrenching and what makes them money, which right now with how a lot of

250
00:24:35,536 --> 00:24:41,341
automakers are doing the fact that they have any brands that are making money is where
they really need to be focusing.

251
00:24:41,641 --> 00:24:45,444
And so I think that's kind an interesting point about, mean, do you see that as well?

252
00:24:45,444 --> 00:24:52,821
Cause I feel like, and kind of what your time about with old team kind of gets to is like,
well, we'll have this design and then we can use this for other vehicle types or like,

253
00:24:52,821 --> 00:24:57,294
will become the fundamental thing, but it's not really to the same.

254
00:24:57,438 --> 00:25:08,964
I just feel like that has kind of taken a step back with some of the product announcements
we've seen with from automakers of having such universal, less bad engineering and much

255
00:25:08,964 --> 00:25:13,466
more market specific vehicles.

256
00:25:13,509 --> 00:25:30,241
Yeah, if you, I mean, the theory is that if you have the skateboard, as people call it,
you can do a variety of EVs possibly cheaper than you can a gasoline vehicle that requires

257
00:25:30,241 --> 00:25:32,513
specific types of crash structures.

258
00:25:32,513 --> 00:25:41,559
I realized I didn't talk about Stellantis in the roundup of the Detroit 2.5.

259
00:25:41,667 --> 00:25:49,213
I find it interesting that Stellantis has pretty much said in every EV announcement,
multi-energy platform.

260
00:25:49,213 --> 00:26:00,443
And what that means is the same thing BMW is doing, which is you have upfront a crash
structure that works either for gasoline or for electric vehicles.

261
00:26:00,443 --> 00:26:07,869
And from the tow board back, it's either a battery pack under the floor or a conventional
gasoline vehicle.

262
00:26:07,869 --> 00:26:09,430
That does save them some money.

263
00:26:09,430 --> 00:26:10,951
BMW has

264
00:26:10,951 --> 00:26:17,993
proven that you can actually do it and make good cars on both sort of variations of the
platform.

265
00:26:18,393 --> 00:26:26,515
But what I expect for Stellantis, which is underwater, they've always made heavier cars.

266
00:26:26,515 --> 00:26:30,036
They were the first out of passenger cars and into trucks.

267
00:26:30,256 --> 00:26:36,058
And so they have the worst emissions challenges in a lot of ways.

268
00:26:36,078 --> 00:26:39,579
I anticipate that they will sell enough electric vehicles.

269
00:26:39,579 --> 00:26:46,302
to stay regulatorially compliant with whatever the regulations are in the year that we're
talking about.

270
00:26:46,502 --> 00:26:54,765
And all of the other chargers or electric rams or whatever will have a gasoline
alternative.

271
00:26:54,765 --> 00:27:01,448
And given how far behind they are on launching EVs, their salespeople don't have
experience selling EVs.

272
00:27:01,448 --> 00:27:07,232
And honestly, I think the charger Daytona, the electric charger is going to a sell to
their audience.

273
00:27:07,232 --> 00:27:08,043
Yeah.

274
00:27:08,057 --> 00:27:15,649
I think they will be the laggard, certainly compared to Jammin, probably compared to Ford.

275
00:27:16,910 --> 00:27:28,053
So multi-energy platform basically means, yes, we'll talk about the electric one first and
give it a certain amount of prominence because electric vehicles, but look, you can buy it

276
00:27:28,053 --> 00:27:32,624
with a predictable, understandable gasoline engine.

277
00:27:32,624 --> 00:27:36,251
And that will probably be a lot higher value for those platforms.

278
00:27:36,474 --> 00:27:45,294
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting call out too, because kind of like what I was
saying is like, go back a year, 18 months, like the state of the automotive industry was

279
00:27:45,294 --> 00:27:46,494
kind of night and day.

280
00:27:46,494 --> 00:27:54,714
And John McRoy even brought this up recently of auto line where he was talking about like,
you go back a year, Stellantis, Dodge, especially they were just printing money.

281
00:27:54,714 --> 00:27:58,934
They're like, they look great as far as like cashflow companies.

282
00:27:58,934 --> 00:28:03,534
And within a year it's done like a complete 180 and they're in a lot of trouble.

283
00:28:03,820 --> 00:28:06,311
with kind of where they want to position this and their products.

284
00:28:06,311 --> 00:28:14,625
And it really does kind of go to what you're talking about, especially with the brands
that we're making them a lot of money around like Dodge, especially that kind of, Ram, I

285
00:28:14,625 --> 00:28:23,458
guess now technically that makes so many of these high margin, truck vehicles and this
kind of move to electrification.

286
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:33,125
killed off two of its three most affordable Jeeps, which is still a decision that people
just scratched their head off over.

287
00:28:33,246 --> 00:28:38,809
They killed off the Renegade, the small one that was built in Italy, which actually ran it
seven years, fine.

288
00:28:38,809 --> 00:28:43,792
But they also killed off the Cherokee even before that.

289
00:28:43,792 --> 00:28:47,234
So you had Cherokee, which was arguably their midsize.

290
00:28:47,234 --> 00:28:50,031
Then you have Compass, which is sort of compact.

291
00:28:50,031 --> 00:28:52,193
and you had Renegade, which is very small.

292
00:28:52,193 --> 00:28:54,155
They killed off two out of three of those.

293
00:28:54,155 --> 00:28:56,517
The Compass was the least convincing of all of them.

294
00:28:56,517 --> 00:28:58,318
It's aging itself.

295
00:28:58,399 --> 00:29:01,901
And so, you know, what are you thinking?

296
00:29:02,062 --> 00:29:08,447
How can you take Jeep as your volume brand and do that to

297
00:29:09,306 --> 00:29:19,406
And I think they're exactly there's just a lot of head scratching and there have been some
announcements of like Jeep specific rebranded electric vehicles in Europe that we're just

298
00:29:19,406 --> 00:29:20,357
not really seeing here.

299
00:29:20,357 --> 00:29:24,621
And I, I mean, it's kind of anecdotal, but it.

300
00:29:26,103 --> 00:29:27,043
Yeah.

301
00:29:28,125 --> 00:29:28,605
Right.

302
00:29:28,605 --> 00:29:28,976
Right.

303
00:29:28,976 --> 00:29:29,362
Right.

304
00:29:29,362 --> 00:29:42,948
rear seat is unusable by North American standards, and I'm just not convinced that they
can put enough battery in to get under EPA test cycles the 200 and something mile range

305
00:29:42,948 --> 00:29:48,370
that any buyer of an electric vehicle in America is gonna demand.

306
00:29:48,370 --> 00:29:49,927
But that...

307
00:29:49,927 --> 00:30:00,587
leads into the thing that I think could change the mix a little bit, which is when are we
going to see truly affordable electric cars?

308
00:30:00,587 --> 00:30:04,187
There is still a price premium on the average electric car.

309
00:30:04,187 --> 00:30:11,787
When will we see a $30,000 or even more importantly, a $25,000 EV?

310
00:30:11,947 --> 00:30:15,247
If any maker could do it, it was thought to be Tesla.

311
00:30:15,247 --> 00:30:15,867
But Mr.

312
00:30:15,867 --> 00:30:17,543
Musk said a year ago now,

313
00:30:17,543 --> 00:30:22,230
they're walking away from the $25,000 Tesla, they will lose.

314
00:30:22,230 --> 00:30:24,845
they're doing a lower price one later this year.

315
00:30:24,845 --> 00:30:27,571
I'll just just to be counterpoint just to say that's what they're claiming.

316
00:30:27,571 --> 00:30:27,861
don't know.

317
00:30:27,861 --> 00:30:31,368
We haven't heard anything about it, but I will let you keep going.

318
00:30:31,368 --> 00:30:41,291
heard a rumor, as astounding as it may seem, that the lower priced Tesla is a cyber cab
with a steering wheel and controls.

319
00:30:42,832 --> 00:30:53,336
Now, if it comes in at $19,900 Tesla, would be a very interesting prospect.

320
00:30:53,357 --> 00:30:57,778
We probably should do a short sidebar on the brand problem at this moment.

321
00:30:59,459 --> 00:31:07,845
I don't know if they can get it down that deep and more than that, two-seater cars have
always been 1 % of the US market and never more.

322
00:31:07,845 --> 00:31:12,769
So there's a whole gang of people who are just going to say, wait, it's only got two
seats?

323
00:31:13,210 --> 00:31:14,130
No.

324
00:31:14,511 --> 00:31:15,661
And that's that.

325
00:31:15,750 --> 00:31:22,590
what, Um, no, I think that's a great call out and I've kind of wondered about that too,
but what do you think?

326
00:31:22,990 --> 00:31:30,550
This is something I've kind of talked about with other people, like what they think this
ideal $25,000 car electric vehicle should look like.

327
00:31:30,550 --> 00:31:33,210
And it's like, okay, they start listing all these things that should have.

328
00:31:33,210 --> 00:31:35,710
I was like, yeah, that's a $45,000 car.

329
00:31:35,910 --> 00:31:44,762
So what is there something that you could realistically see being a well-selling $25,000
car that maybe isn't a two C like

330
00:31:44,762 --> 00:31:51,342
What boxes does it have to check but still be possible or affordable at that $25,000
problem?

331
00:31:51,342 --> 00:31:53,842
Because I've talked to lot of people like, well, it should be this, this, and this.

332
00:31:53,842 --> 00:31:57,002
was like, yeah, that's a $45,000 car, gas, or electric.

333
00:31:57,851 --> 00:32:17,643
I would say it's probably something like the old Chevy Bolt EV, which remember at the end
of its life had, let me get this right, 258 miles of range was it?

334
00:32:17,643 --> 00:32:19,704
259, something like that.

335
00:32:19,704 --> 00:32:24,551
Rated range, which meant 200-ish in real world usage, especially if it's cold.

336
00:32:24,551 --> 00:32:26,591
But it was a four-door hatchback.

337
00:32:26,591 --> 00:32:32,831
It was tall enough where you could arguably kind of sort of sell it as an SUV.

338
00:32:33,771 --> 00:32:38,331
It's one drawback in my market is that it didn't have all-wheel drive, which it was
clearly designed for.

339
00:32:38,331 --> 00:32:43,531
But this is where I point out the GM has said they are bringing back the Bolt EV.

340
00:32:43,531 --> 00:32:54,151
They're going to take that vehicle, put Ultium batteries into it, which are not 2017
batteries, they're 2024 batteries.

341
00:32:54,623 --> 00:33:01,567
And unless they reposition it, which I can't imagine they're going to do, it will be the
bottom of their EV range.

342
00:33:01,567 --> 00:33:07,470
You already have a version of the Equinox EV that stickers at, think, 35-ish.

343
00:33:07,751 --> 00:33:22,991
And so if they can bring the stripped version of what I'm calling the Boltium, you heard
it here first, if they can bring that in at something like 28 or 29,

344
00:33:23,095 --> 00:33:26,836
even though it'll transact at 34 or something like that.

345
00:33:26,936 --> 00:33:33,338
That could be a direction toward that inexpensive EV.

346
00:33:34,138 --> 00:33:39,140
And in my market, people will still pay three grand to add all-wheel drive because snow.

347
00:33:39,140 --> 00:33:44,561
But I also expect Hyundai and Kia to continue offering stuff on the low end.

348
00:33:44,561 --> 00:33:50,363
People talk a lot about the Hyundai IONIQ 5, the Kia EV6, but remember they each have

349
00:33:50,363 --> 00:33:53,785
an electric vehicle with over 200 miles of range below that.

350
00:33:53,785 --> 00:33:57,267
They just don't offer all wheel drive or 800 volt charging.

351
00:33:57,267 --> 00:34:04,291
So I think possibly the Boltium, certainly future entrance from Hyundai and Kia.

352
00:34:05,191 --> 00:34:12,976
Unclear if we will see anything from a Chinese company, which theoretically would have to
be built here with US developed software, et cetera.

353
00:34:12,976 --> 00:34:18,917
But I think if there is volume in those lower cost EVs,

354
00:34:18,917 --> 00:34:30,618
That really changes the game because people will look at something with a sticker price
under 40 because that's still cheaper than the average.

355
00:34:30,618 --> 00:34:41,217
And if the sticker price is under 30 and it's a compelling vehicle, then I think that will
expand the horizon.

356
00:34:42,808 --> 00:34:46,570
Yeah, I'm kind of curious on this because I think there's truth to that.

357
00:34:46,570 --> 00:34:52,243
I'm not a hundred percent convinced in the moment that charging is solved for that scale.

358
00:34:52,484 --> 00:34:58,167
Because once you get to that level, like home charging, if you have an EV, great, simple.

359
00:34:58,167 --> 00:35:07,642
I'm sure they'll still sell well, but I am still curious to see just like once you're
starting, mean, and this is a good thing and this is just a problem that has to be solved

360
00:35:07,642 --> 00:35:11,606
with EVs in general is like you're going from single family homeowner to

361
00:35:11,606 --> 00:35:14,629
usually multifamily apartment dwellers, all sorts of stuff.

362
00:35:14,629 --> 00:35:19,042
And then just logistically, it gets a little more complicated when you get to that scale.

363
00:35:19,433 --> 00:35:24,516
and I think that that price point of Evie is probably going to face those challenges more.

364
00:35:24,677 --> 00:35:33,785
And I want to talk about that with you, but I think before we get into that, this is where
people usually step in and say, well, this is why you get a plugin hybrid.

365
00:35:33,785 --> 00:35:38,879
This is why you can kind of get around and then you don't have to deal with the charging
issue as much.

366
00:35:38,879 --> 00:35:40,430
So I, I,

367
00:35:40,492 --> 00:35:46,622
I know your stance on it, I guess for anyone who's listening who isn't familiar, I think
we'd love to hear your thoughts in it.

368
00:35:46,622 --> 00:35:50,888
And then I want to share an anecdote with you that I think will reinforce how you feel
about

369
00:35:52,209 --> 00:36:06,579
So I have now published two separate articles, one on plug-in hybrids in general and one
on range extended EV trucks, that essentially make the point that until automakers are

370
00:36:06,579 --> 00:36:19,978
willing to release the data that they have or should have on the plugging in behavior of
their plug-in hybrid buyers, I do not believe that most plug-in hybrids are plugged in to

371
00:36:19,978 --> 00:36:21,733
any meaningful

372
00:36:21,733 --> 00:36:22,783
degree.

373
00:36:22,844 --> 00:36:34,344
Now, when I say this, the shrieking from EV advocates is high volume because, why would
you buy a plug-in hybrid if you never want to plug it in?

374
00:36:34,344 --> 00:36:37,576
And I plug my plug-in hybrid in all the time.

375
00:36:37,576 --> 00:36:38,737
I only buy gas once.

376
00:36:38,737 --> 00:36:39,919
Yes, I know.

377
00:36:39,919 --> 00:36:40,399
I know.

378
00:36:40,399 --> 00:36:42,180
Pat, pat, pat.

379
00:36:42,861 --> 00:36:50,159
That said, especially Jeep, which goes back and forth with Toyota.

380
00:36:50,159 --> 00:36:55,721
for the dubious title of highest volume plug-in hybrid sold in the US.

381
00:36:56,222 --> 00:37:01,924
Jeep absolutely refuses to release any data on plugging in hybrid behavior.

382
00:37:02,304 --> 00:37:08,207
They have in past said several mutually contradictory things, which I laid out in the
article.

383
00:37:09,367 --> 00:37:11,488
Executives who are no longer there.

384
00:37:11,608 --> 00:37:15,090
Toyota actually has all the data.

385
00:37:15,090 --> 00:37:17,969
They refuse to release it because they said,

386
00:37:17,969 --> 00:37:21,440
we're worried it might be misinterpreted.

387
00:37:21,581 --> 00:37:25,782
Now, I can think of how to interpret that statement, right?

388
00:37:26,482 --> 00:37:40,568
I just don't believe that the majority of plug-in hybrid buyers plug them in regularly to
do what the intention was, which is to let you run daily predictable miles, 40 miles or

389
00:37:40,568 --> 00:37:42,529
less on electricity.

390
00:37:42,529 --> 00:37:47,981
But if you want to drive to Cleveland or San Francisco, then use the gas in.

391
00:37:48,671 --> 00:37:54,193
And I'll sort of close on this because I can lecture at great length on it.

392
00:37:54,193 --> 00:38:09,617
I have come to view plug-in hybrids as an auto engineer's response to a set of demands by
a regulator that no customer has ever walked into a car dealership and asked for.

393
00:38:09,617 --> 00:38:13,718
Hi, I want a low range electric vehicle with a backup.

394
00:38:14,158 --> 00:38:17,125
It's really hard to explain how plug-in hybrids work.

395
00:38:17,125 --> 00:38:19,577
Think of all the time it took just to explain hybrids.

396
00:38:19,577 --> 00:38:21,259
No, you don't have to plug it in.

397
00:38:21,259 --> 00:38:25,742
It's like a regular car, but the gerbils under the hood drink less.

398
00:38:25,742 --> 00:38:26,742
Okay?

399
00:38:26,783 --> 00:38:28,064
That took a while.

400
00:38:28,064 --> 00:38:32,408
And now hybrids are just like, okay, they're regular cars, but they get their gas mounts.

401
00:38:32,408 --> 00:38:35,630
Electric cars, people sort of fundamentally get.

402
00:38:35,630 --> 00:38:37,312
You know, it's like your phone.

403
00:38:37,312 --> 00:38:40,974
You run on battery and you have to recharge the battery regularly.

404
00:38:41,275 --> 00:38:44,017
Plug-in hybrids are really hard to explain.

405
00:38:44,017 --> 00:38:45,318
What's your anecdote?

406
00:38:45,318 --> 00:38:46,354
I'm curious.

407
00:38:46,354 --> 00:38:47,464
there's a few things.

408
00:38:47,464 --> 00:38:50,795
First, it's, is really funny because I completely agree with you.

409
00:38:51,876 --> 00:39:02,679
and it is funny talking to my more, I'll just leave it at conservative friends who are the
traditional big truck driving guys and the concept of the Eve rev they're like, that makes

410
00:39:02,679 --> 00:39:03,239
sense to me.

411
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:12,442
So I don't know if that's actually going to be the case in sales, but, or I talk versus
action.

412
00:39:13,432 --> 00:39:20,246
But I think in some ways you could make an argument for that for like the Dodge Ram or
like as a stepping stone, maybe.

413
00:39:20,326 --> 00:39:22,207
I don't think that's gonna be it.

414
00:39:23,468 --> 00:39:24,608
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

415
00:39:24,608 --> 00:39:26,245
And that's not my antidote, so don't worry.

416
00:39:26,245 --> 00:39:27,230
But yeah.

417
00:39:28,430 --> 00:39:42,606
because the second article, I've heard this from other people, and the second article I
wrote sort of says, yes, now we have two examples of range-extended electric pickups, the

418
00:39:42,606 --> 00:39:49,115
Ram Charger and the Future Scout Harvester, both of which

419
00:39:49,115 --> 00:40:01,366
will have something like 130 or 150 miles of battery range, which is way more than you do
a day, and then about 300 miles on gasoline, right?

420
00:40:02,227 --> 00:40:04,520
Why would you bother to plug it in?

421
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,902
It works just like your old truck.

422
00:40:06,902 --> 00:40:12,217
You go to the gas station, you fill it up once a week, you get 300 miles.

423
00:40:12,217 --> 00:40:14,959
You don't have to worry about that plug stuff.

424
00:40:15,704 --> 00:40:18,748
I'll say the counterpoint is then you probably get better gas mileage.

425
00:40:18,748 --> 00:40:21,959
So is that even if you do it that way?

426
00:40:21,959 --> 00:40:24,399
possible benefit TBD.

427
00:40:24,399 --> 00:40:32,279
mean Chrysler is using a 3.6 liter V6 specially tuned for series hybrid use.

428
00:40:32,459 --> 00:40:42,419
The rumor is that Scout is going to use a 2 liter Volkswagen 4 specially tuned, although
they haven't said anything at all about what the Harvester powertrain is.

429
00:40:42,419 --> 00:40:51,375
So I just, again, I am absolutely willing to believe that plug-in hybrids are a net
positive for EVs and

430
00:40:51,375 --> 00:40:57,473
lower emissions, show me the data because I don't believe that until I see the data.

431
00:40:58,010 --> 00:41:06,530
And it's pretty rare, but I have seen like there have been occasions like where I'm going
to hotel in my EV and I see someone plug charging their plug and hybrid on it because it's

432
00:41:06,530 --> 00:41:07,870
most likely because it's free.

433
00:41:07,870 --> 00:41:15,930
And as an EV driver that does drive me nuts, I'll be the first to say it, even though 10,
9, 80 % of the time I don't need it anyway, but it's just like, okay, really?

434
00:41:15,930 --> 00:41:19,350
That's, seems like a bit of a cop out, but, I.

435
00:41:19,350 --> 00:41:27,058
Once again, think most of the time they just like doing it because it's closer to the
actual like entrance of a lot of these hotels when they do that whole different thing.

436
00:41:27,350 --> 00:41:41,658
Here is my anecdote though for you about two plug-in hybrid drivers that plug in all the
time one has a new mercedes whatever their I can never remember which is which but kind of

437
00:41:41,658 --> 00:41:52,765
the mid-size SUV and then mother-in-law has the volvo xc90 plug-in hybrid both of them had
partners who had electric vehicles first and then when they went to go buy a vehicle they

438
00:41:52,765 --> 00:41:55,054
got one and now they can charge it at home

439
00:41:55,054 --> 00:42:03,662
And I think that is purely the only reason that that actually works and makes sense
because if you buy a plug-in hybrid, yeah, the logic when you're kind of the sales

440
00:42:03,662 --> 00:42:12,349
process, like, okay, I guess in charge it, but there isn't like the forcing function that
an electric vehicle has when you buy it to make sure you have actual charging figured out

441
00:42:12,349 --> 00:42:13,425
at your house.

442
00:42:13,425 --> 00:42:21,445
to give you the experience and the hardware where plugging in is not so far.

443
00:42:21,698 --> 00:42:21,948
Right.

444
00:42:21,948 --> 00:42:25,502
They've already done it because they've driven their partner's vehicle here and there.

445
00:42:25,502 --> 00:42:31,988
And so they not only that, but then they have it, they have the actual infrastructure they
need to do that at home.

446
00:42:31,988 --> 00:42:36,592
So they'll do it to do most of their around town driving on electric.

447
00:42:36,592 --> 00:42:38,724
And then they go on a long road trip.

448
00:42:38,724 --> 00:42:45,320
have the gas thing that they feel more comfortable with and need, but that is a very rare
exception.

449
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,492
And that to me kind of reinforces your point.

450
00:42:47,492 --> 00:42:48,046
It's like

451
00:42:48,046 --> 00:42:53,789
That only works if someone has that hardware at home already and that infrastructure to be
able to charge.

452
00:42:53,789 --> 00:42:56,810
Majority of the time, I don't think plug-in hybrid drivers are going to do that.

453
00:42:56,810 --> 00:43:03,793
And once again, it's so interesting that they were, the plug-in hybrid was not the first
electrified vehicle in the family home.

454
00:43:03,793 --> 00:43:06,375
It was actually the second after the electric vehicle.

455
00:43:06,375 --> 00:43:14,541
Those are arguably the most informed of car choppers and probably the best target for
plug-in hybrid purchases.

456
00:43:15,323 --> 00:43:26,912
The anecdote I tend to use is Jeep, when they had a compliance problem, made a big deal
out of the plug-in hybrid Wrangler and they sold a bunch of them.

457
00:43:26,912 --> 00:43:35,149
And AutoWriter happened to live next door to a young woman who was thrilled to be able to
get her first new car, the Wrangler that she wanted.

458
00:43:35,151 --> 00:43:36,632
And he went and talked to her about it.

459
00:43:36,632 --> 00:43:43,555
And she said, yeah, I got, you know, a way better deal on a higher trim level than I
expected.

460
00:43:43,555 --> 00:43:59,021
She didn't call it a trim level, but, it turned out to be the four by E, which at various
points has had extremely affordable lease terms and is a better set of features and some

461
00:43:59,021 --> 00:44:03,123
standard options than its counterpart without the plug.

462
00:44:03,123 --> 00:44:04,623
And he said, wow.

463
00:44:04,763 --> 00:44:06,003
That's great.

464
00:44:06,424 --> 00:44:08,045
Where are you going to plug it in?

465
00:44:08,045 --> 00:44:10,285
And she said, what do you mean?

466
00:44:10,285 --> 00:44:13,347
It has USB ports, but all my cords work.

467
00:44:14,067 --> 00:44:16,505
And he's like, no, no, no, you can plug in your car.

468
00:44:16,505 --> 00:44:17,909
It has a battery.

469
00:44:17,909 --> 00:44:19,869
And she said, no, it's a hybrid.

470
00:44:20,310 --> 00:44:23,151
And she had no idea.

471
00:44:23,523 --> 00:44:27,053
So because the salesman never bothered to tell her.

472
00:44:27,353 --> 00:44:32,025
Anyway, like I said, all the about plug-in hybrids.

473
00:44:32,356 --> 00:44:35,859
know, but I think it really reinforces your point though.

474
00:44:35,859 --> 00:44:44,839
It's like, unless the consumer is incredibly informed about charging at home and electric
vehicles, the likelihood of that actually happening is just so low.

475
00:44:44,839 --> 00:44:49,019
Maybe over time more of them will be plugged in.

476
00:44:49,159 --> 00:44:53,519
I only have one photo of a Ford C-Max Energy.

477
00:44:53,519 --> 00:44:55,479
Remember the C-Max Energy?

478
00:44:55,879 --> 00:44:58,919
With duct tape all over the charging port.

479
00:44:59,799 --> 00:45:03,239
Anyway, so what else is on the list?

480
00:45:04,913 --> 00:45:14,580
well, I think maybe in fair enough, mean, both the reason my mother and my mother-in-law
didn't necessarily want to get a full on electric vehicle is they just didn't want to deal

481
00:45:14,580 --> 00:45:16,781
with charging infrastructure.

482
00:45:17,202 --> 00:45:22,085
And I think maybe that's maybe where we should go next.

483
00:45:22,106 --> 00:45:27,642
both of their partners had Tesla, so they pretty much had experience and dealt with and
had to driven them on their own trips.

484
00:45:27,642 --> 00:45:32,802
So they kind of knew what the baseline for about as easy of a charging experience can be.

485
00:45:32,802 --> 00:45:37,322
But I know like even since they bought theirs, there's been some pretty big advances.

486
00:45:37,322 --> 00:45:44,122
And I do think I was just use electrify America again on a recent trip and it was a much
better experience.

487
00:45:44,122 --> 00:45:46,862
The first one I plugged into didn't work, but I moved in and then it all worked.

488
00:45:46,862 --> 00:45:48,522
So there's that caveat.

489
00:45:48,762 --> 00:45:51,102
But overall, it does seem like the third party ones are improving.

490
00:45:51,102 --> 00:45:57,390
And I know you recently kind of went to Ayanna, which is the big one, but I would love to
kind of get your thoughts on

491
00:45:57,390 --> 00:46:03,707
Not just them, but where you see the EV charging, public fast charging, especially around
currently.

492
00:46:03,707 --> 00:46:04,487
Yeah.

493
00:46:04,568 --> 00:46:07,148
I haven't seen recent data.

494
00:46:07,148 --> 00:46:21,149
The data that I'm thinking about was around a year old, which showed that roughly, I think
it was one in five or one in four charging sessions just didn't work, which is far, far,

495
00:46:21,149 --> 00:46:24,362
far lower than what you expect from gasoline stations.

496
00:46:24,362 --> 00:46:32,257
I mean, you're genuinely miffed when you drive up to a pump and it's covered in a canvas
shroud, and then you move to the next pump.

497
00:46:32,283 --> 00:46:36,286
You only find out that your charging station doesn't work after you've plugged in, right?

498
00:46:36,286 --> 00:46:37,806
Or most of case.

499
00:46:38,167 --> 00:46:39,378
Yeah.

500
00:46:39,378 --> 00:46:48,353
So, charging station reliability over the last few years, especially in the DC fast
charging, has not been what we would expect it to be.

501
00:46:48,414 --> 00:46:57,480
My impression, anecdotally, not based on data thus far, is that things are, as you said,
improving.

502
00:46:57,900 --> 00:47:02,263
I haven't had a bad experience at an Electrify America station.

503
00:47:02,277 --> 00:47:07,408
for probably a year now, certainly nine months.

504
00:47:07,408 --> 00:47:15,191
And I have a lengthy history of whining loudly about all of the bad experiences I've had
at EA.

505
00:47:15,191 --> 00:47:31,961
But more than that, I think we may be entering a new phase of charging infrastructure in
the US because it's long been the model or the first 10 years, even for Tesla was,

506
00:47:31,961 --> 00:47:41,358
Find places where you can get the high voltage power, have enough parking spaces, make
charging stations.

507
00:47:41,659 --> 00:47:44,301
Put them in places where people travel.

508
00:47:44,342 --> 00:47:46,463
And Teslas are bigger than anyone else's.

509
00:47:46,463 --> 00:47:52,208
I think I heard Harris Ranch has 128 charging stations or some crazy number.

510
00:47:54,270 --> 00:47:59,214
We're still looking at sort of four to 12 for most other networks.

511
00:47:59,214 --> 00:48:00,114
But...

512
00:48:01,133 --> 00:48:02,624
And that also is a one off.

513
00:48:02,624 --> 00:48:06,718
Most of them are now like 12 to 16, but still there's a decent delta.

514
00:48:06,948 --> 00:48:14,191
well, and then there's China, which is even more astounding, but they can make things
happen quicker.

515
00:48:16,072 --> 00:48:24,915
But I think the problem with charging stations is their profitability is solely dependent
on utilization.

516
00:48:24,956 --> 00:48:27,497
And, you know, it's a chicken and egg thing.

517
00:48:27,497 --> 00:48:33,159
Why am I going to spend all of this money being unprofitable as a network for X amount of
years?

518
00:48:33,159 --> 00:48:37,379
until we sell enough EVs that will come to my stations.

519
00:48:38,019 --> 00:48:40,199
Utilization rates have been coming up.

520
00:48:40,199 --> 00:48:46,019
I think industry-wide I saw somewhere they're now 12, 14, 16%, something like that.

521
00:48:46,019 --> 00:48:51,659
And the best stations, the ones that are most frequently used are up in the 40s.

522
00:48:51,659 --> 00:48:56,739
You're solidly profitable if your station is charging 40 % of the time.

523
00:48:57,299 --> 00:49:00,879
But more than that, I've always maintained

524
00:49:01,179 --> 00:49:12,713
Going to an EV charging station, especially because you're spending two or three times as
much time there, should be no more unpleasant than your average gas station, which is to

525
00:49:12,713 --> 00:49:21,045
say there should be a bathroom and there should be a place to buy salty snack foods and
sugary sodas and maybe lotto tickets if you're into that.

526
00:49:21,939 --> 00:49:25,017
so...

527
00:49:25,017 --> 00:49:34,620
It's long been expected that convenience store chains who know how to do this stuff really
well and for whom gasoline is just one of several profit leavers, they do actually make

528
00:49:34,620 --> 00:49:35,670
money on gasoline.

529
00:49:35,670 --> 00:49:36,760
I hadn't realized that.

530
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:38,561
I thought it was a loss leader.

531
00:49:38,561 --> 00:49:40,931
They do actually make a few cents per gallon.

532
00:49:41,912 --> 00:49:52,935
Yeah, I think it was 10 to 20 on average, but they then bring in customers who buy a
certain amount of other stuff, be it fat food increasingly.

533
00:49:54,277 --> 00:50:06,183
That model should be how we get EV charging, especially if you've got someone who at this
moment is higher income than your average driver and is going to spend three times as long

534
00:50:06,183 --> 00:50:06,894
there.

535
00:50:06,894 --> 00:50:10,116
And that's where I think IANA comes in.

536
00:50:10,116 --> 00:50:17,339
IANA is the network formed by eight separate auto brands from three different nations.

537
00:50:18,340 --> 00:50:22,402
Yeah, the US, Japan, and Korea.

538
00:50:24,135 --> 00:50:26,556
to do charging right.

539
00:50:26,556 --> 00:50:32,418
And they have said they will have 30,000 charging cables across the US by the end of 2030.

540
00:50:32,418 --> 00:50:41,240
They opened one of their sort of showplace charging stations and invited the press down.

541
00:50:41,540 --> 00:50:45,721
Turns out it's really cheap to fly to Charlotte from where I live, which is good.

542
00:50:45,882 --> 00:50:47,352
And it...

543
00:50:47,352 --> 00:50:49,264
your EV down there, John?

544
00:50:50,875 --> 00:50:54,765
was a longer journey that I wanted to undertake for that story.

545
00:50:55,546 --> 00:51:04,256
I think I mean, we'll talk about this a little bit at the end, but maybe there should be a
upcoming Tempting Fate Tours trip to one of these locations.

546
00:51:04,256 --> 00:51:17,556
tempting fake tours in EVs, but given that the only EV in-house at this moment is a 1975
Sebring City Car, I'm not convinced yet.

547
00:51:17,556 --> 00:51:27,186
no, I think I think even in just like to rate the regular cars you guys use would be so
much fun to show up in one of those things Unto its own just with how much How your trips

548
00:51:27,186 --> 00:51:29,228
go in those but we'll talk about the later.

549
00:51:29,228 --> 00:51:31,350
I'm sorry continue with yeah

550
00:51:32,487 --> 00:51:41,843
okay, IANA has an, it's an old gas station in a town in North Carolina, sort of outside
Charlotte.

551
00:51:42,884 --> 00:51:51,510
The town wanted to keep the gas station, which was all about a hundred years old, but
didn't want it to sell gasoline.

552
00:51:51,510 --> 00:51:54,772
And IANA had to say, no, EV charging is clean.

553
00:51:54,772 --> 00:51:58,795
And they turned it into a 24 hour EV charging,

554
00:51:59,130 --> 00:52:06,384
Emporium with some wonderful features like canopies over the charging stations.

555
00:52:06,945 --> 00:52:13,009
Both Tesla and CCS plugs, should say Naxx, guess.

556
00:52:14,610 --> 00:52:15,791
Squeegees.

557
00:52:15,791 --> 00:52:19,354
You can actually clean your windshield just like at a gas station.

558
00:52:19,354 --> 00:52:24,196
Even better, an air hose that you can fill your tires.

559
00:52:25,378 --> 00:52:27,815
And my favorite was

560
00:52:27,815 --> 00:52:37,835
the windshield washer fluid dispenser, which you do have to give them a credit card for so
the entire town doesn't come and fill up all their washer fluid reservoirs.

561
00:52:37,835 --> 00:52:46,075
But they then inside have a sort of coffee bar thing that's open business hours.

562
00:52:46,615 --> 00:52:58,115
They have bathrooms that are accessible 24 seven and they have conference rooms you can
book if you need to do a quick 30 minute conference or have a private

563
00:52:58,119 --> 00:53:00,339
you know, Zoom call or whatever.

564
00:53:00,359 --> 00:53:10,459
And they also have a video game console on the wall with, I gather, dozens of 70s, 80s,
and 90s classic video games.

565
00:53:10,459 --> 00:53:25,299
So the idea here really is to make it a place that is not just giving you what you need,
which is electricity for your car, but make it a destination that you like and you want to

566
00:53:25,299 --> 00:53:26,899
come to.

567
00:53:26,959 --> 00:53:27,623
Now.

568
00:53:27,623 --> 00:53:34,007
To be fair, only about 30 % of their locations are going to be that model.

569
00:53:34,007 --> 00:53:38,889
The others are going to be, yes, they call them rechargeries, I forgot.

570
00:53:39,810 --> 00:53:49,096
The others are going to be with various convenience store chains that already have the
bathrooms, the snacks, and whatnot.

571
00:53:49,096 --> 00:53:54,939
But they will have canopies, and they will be upfront as opposed to, in the famous words
of a...

572
00:53:54,939 --> 00:53:58,261
Mercedes-Benz executive out back by the dumpster.

573
00:53:58,462 --> 00:54:10,731
And the idea is basically make this a place people want to go to charge as opposed to the
nearest place when you have to charge.

574
00:54:11,413 --> 00:54:14,875
They have, I think, 10 or 12 locations open now.

575
00:54:14,875 --> 00:54:22,522
Their goal is to have by the end of 2025, 100 locations open with 1,000 cables.

576
00:54:22,522 --> 00:54:24,519
And this first one that I went to visit,

577
00:54:24,519 --> 00:54:33,399
had, I believe, I can't remember who was eight with capacity for 12 or 12 with capacity
for 16.

578
00:54:34,099 --> 00:54:36,039
There aren't any in my part of the country yet.

579
00:54:36,039 --> 00:54:42,779
The Northeast can be a little bit challenging in terms of bureaucracy, but there will be.

580
00:54:42,779 --> 00:54:51,239
And what's interesting is that every IANA exec I talked to has worked in EV charging
somewhere else.

581
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:53,679
And as one of them said, our goal

582
00:54:53,679 --> 00:54:59,521
is to do EV charging right, the way it should always have been.

583
00:54:59,861 --> 00:55:08,523
And another quote, where charging reliability is not even a question.

584
00:55:08,983 --> 00:55:19,046
If they can do that, and if they can get to their 30,000 cables by the end of 2030, they
will have changed the game.

585
00:55:19,046 --> 00:55:22,071
And they are, I think, both competing with

586
00:55:22,071 --> 00:55:25,852
and working in conjunction with convenience stores.

587
00:55:26,432 --> 00:55:40,856
What happens to Electrify America in a couple of years is a topic of much debate once the
10-year consent order between EPA, or among EPA CARB and Volkswagen expires.

588
00:55:41,256 --> 00:55:43,437
Will they try to spin it out?

589
00:55:43,437 --> 00:55:47,018
Will it be sold to some other charging network?

590
00:55:47,018 --> 00:55:49,058
Will it be sold for parts?

591
00:55:49,058 --> 00:55:51,759
Some of the desirable ones other people will take.

592
00:55:51,939 --> 00:55:55,461
Some parts of EA may be just things that get decommissioned.

593
00:55:55,461 --> 00:55:56,291
No one knows.

594
00:55:56,291 --> 00:55:57,962
EA won't talk about it.

595
00:55:57,962 --> 00:56:00,224
But that will be interesting to watch.

596
00:56:00,224 --> 00:56:03,485
And we have EVgo and a bunch of others as well.

597
00:56:03,886 --> 00:56:09,329
The last point I'm charging, I'm now getting daily emails from Shell, actually.

598
00:56:09,329 --> 00:56:16,952
Shell recharged the old green lots, which used to have its own app.

599
00:56:17,293 --> 00:56:21,825
Their authorization is being rolled into the Shell app.

600
00:56:21,891 --> 00:56:34,275
overall where you buy gasoline and it's not so much about downloading the new app which I
still have to do it's about making EV charging just the same as buying gasoline in terms

601
00:56:34,275 --> 00:56:47,919
of accumulating points, preferential treatment and if you're a shell customer there are
going to be reasons for you to choose shell recharge over somebody else's recharge because

602
00:56:47,919 --> 00:56:49,623
you're already part of the shell

603
00:56:49,623 --> 00:56:54,143
shell environment and convenience stores are really good at doing

604
00:56:55,950 --> 00:57:04,914
Yeah, I think those are great points and it is really interesting because I, we get here
this all the time where, I just want to swipe my damn card.

605
00:57:04,914 --> 00:57:06,795
I don't want to download an app.

606
00:57:06,795 --> 00:57:08,385
don't, but I agree with you.

607
00:57:08,385 --> 00:57:14,538
Like if there's the Fred Meyer or the shell or whatever, where it's like, okay, I come
here once a week anyway, I'll sign up for it.

608
00:57:14,538 --> 00:57:18,259
And usually then it's even just like a quick swipe or whatever, and then you can pay.

609
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:21,831
And I've always been a firm believer for like a new technology to take off.

610
00:57:21,831 --> 00:57:23,296
doesn't have to be just as good.

611
00:57:23,296 --> 00:57:24,862
It has to be better.

612
00:57:25,082 --> 00:57:33,302
And so that that's where I kind of like, okay, EV charging, especially a lot of these
limits have to be, they're not even getting to at least as good.

613
00:57:33,322 --> 00:57:38,222
And then the future state is hopefully you just do the plug and charge thing where you
just plug walk away.

614
00:57:38,262 --> 00:57:46,422
And I tell you what, that is still such a game changer for when you're on a road trip,
because there's nothing like you've been in a car for three hours and you have to go to

615
00:57:46,422 --> 00:57:47,102
that bathroom.

616
00:57:47,102 --> 00:57:50,702
You just walk, plug it in, walk, run away and it works.

617
00:57:50,702 --> 00:57:54,662
And it's those little things that more coming.

618
00:57:54,662 --> 00:57:54,963
Yeah.

619
00:57:54,963 --> 00:57:57,715
and some others, Jim has it at EVgo.

620
00:57:57,715 --> 00:58:00,957
It's not real plug-in charge, but it worked with AIM.

621
00:58:00,978 --> 00:58:04,540
And hopefully other people will have that.

622
00:58:04,540 --> 00:58:08,163
And yet Hyundai wants to do it all through Hyundai Pay.

623
00:58:08,383 --> 00:58:12,366
So there are still going to be variations.

624
00:58:12,366 --> 00:58:18,770
The last thing I want to say about charging is the opening up of the Tesla network is
great.

625
00:58:19,899 --> 00:58:27,786
you know, arguably that network may become slightly more separate from Tesla, still
obviously a huge sales driver for Tesla.

626
00:58:27,786 --> 00:58:36,135
But it's important to understand how that works because when I tested a Mach-E at a Tesla
charging station, it's plug-in charge.

627
00:58:36,135 --> 00:58:41,100
Just plug in the car with the adapter, walk away, right?

628
00:58:41,100 --> 00:58:43,342
It's all taken care of through FordPass.

629
00:58:44,452 --> 00:58:47,663
Which is a pretty slick execution and like that's how it should be.

630
00:58:47,663 --> 00:58:50,721
I may have had to say yes on the forward pass.

631
00:58:50,721 --> 00:58:51,854
There may have been one tap.

632
00:58:51,854 --> 00:58:53,169
There is like an initial setup.

633
00:58:53,169 --> 00:58:53,781
I'll give it that.

634
00:58:53,781 --> 00:58:57,049
Like if they can do it and they keep it simple enough, done.

635
00:58:57,049 --> 00:59:03,863
Other vehicles that were further down the list, because I think Tesla realized, every car
maker does this differently.

636
00:59:03,863 --> 00:59:10,407
Every single car maker is going to be a custom implementation to use the supercharger
network.

637
00:59:10,407 --> 00:59:13,349
That's going to be a gigantic pain in the ass for us.

638
00:59:13,349 --> 00:59:15,930
Let's make them use the Tesla app.

639
00:59:16,070 --> 00:59:24,219
And so I have tested other EVs from other makers where, in fact, you are required to have
the Tesla app.

640
00:59:24,219 --> 00:59:34,169
give another carmaker your personally identifiable information to use the Tesla network to
charge because Tesla does not have credit cards.

641
00:59:34,712 --> 00:59:35,964
Yeah, no, and I agree with you.

642
00:59:35,964 --> 00:59:38,066
That is definitely not the ideal situation.

643
00:59:38,066 --> 00:59:45,545
And it is interesting because you have seen them in Europe and other markets where
actually Tesla does have, Swiped to pay in that.

644
00:59:45,545 --> 00:59:50,501
And I think there may have been like one or two sites, even domestically they did it, but
I agree with you.

645
00:59:50,501 --> 00:59:51,225
It's like to me.

646
00:59:51,225 --> 00:59:53,489
There's one word to explain that.

647
00:59:54,053 --> 00:59:55,315
Regulation.

648
00:59:55,758 --> 00:59:56,841
Regulation.

649
00:59:56,841 --> 00:59:59,247
They're required to do that stuff.

650
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:01,771
I mean, that's a fair call out.

651
01:00:01,771 --> 01:00:04,262
Like obviously that plays a big part into it.

652
01:00:04,262 --> 01:00:12,775
I will say even then there is a difference between having it because of regulation and
having it and it just works day to day.

653
01:00:12,775 --> 01:00:18,778
Cause I have even used the ones that were that regulation and they just, the screen was
dead or something.

654
01:00:21,019 --> 01:00:22,189
But I agree with you overall.

655
01:00:22,189 --> 01:00:28,642
Yeah, that's a big part of the reason why it actually is there and kind of implemented
with a lot of these.

656
01:00:29,602 --> 01:00:33,906
I think in that case with love the supercharger, especially with the Navy stuff.

657
01:00:34,207 --> 01:00:36,219
I don't know why it kind of didn't have that.

658
01:00:36,350 --> 01:00:40,845
I think one or two of the sites technically did, but I, and I think they're actually in
your neck of those.

659
01:00:40,845 --> 01:00:49,564
think there's like one magic doc thing, Navy award funded somewhere in New York that
actually has it, but it's like, it is a unicorn for having it.

660
01:00:49,986 --> 01:00:50,603
And

661
01:00:50,603 --> 01:00:53,452
expect MagicDock to be the long-term solution.

662
01:00:53,452 --> 01:00:54,502
No, I don't think anymore.

663
01:00:54,502 --> 01:01:00,164
mean, that was before all the automakers went to or announced they were going to Nax and
all that stuff.

664
01:01:00,504 --> 01:01:04,245
and once again, I, I've always thought that that is the right call.

665
01:01:04,245 --> 01:01:06,145
Just kind of going back to your thing.

666
01:01:06,145 --> 01:01:16,048
It's like the more, the simpler you can make the sales process and education process about
electric vehicles as little as there were so many, kind of resonates too.

667
01:01:16,048 --> 01:01:18,549
It's like so many EV people would say, it's not that difficult.

668
01:01:18,549 --> 01:01:22,936
You just have the ones you use for AC plugs at home and the J 1772.

669
01:01:22,936 --> 01:01:25,818
And then the CCS one is what you use for DC fast sharing.

670
01:01:25,818 --> 01:01:28,030
was like, that's, that's too much.

671
01:01:28,030 --> 01:01:30,522
You get one plug type that works wherever you go.

672
01:01:30,522 --> 01:01:31,473
That just works.

673
01:01:31,473 --> 01:01:35,476
So people don't have to think about or really have that expectation.

674
01:01:35,716 --> 01:01:37,688
It's not an education or intelligence thing.

675
01:01:37,688 --> 01:01:45,016
It is just like, people have so many other things that they're trying to, I guess it is
actually, it's not an intelligence thing, but it is like an education thing.

676
01:01:45,016 --> 01:01:47,186
It's just one more thing people have to know and learn.

677
01:01:47,186 --> 01:01:51,889
And so I have a plug type that just works no matter what is such a huge perk.

678
01:01:51,889 --> 01:01:56,294
but we still face up to 10 years worth of adapters.

679
01:01:56,760 --> 01:01:57,793
Well, right.

680
01:01:57,793 --> 01:02:00,328
That's a little bit different, but I get what you're saying.

681
01:02:00,328 --> 01:02:08,316
which is where I scream and wave my hands and say, do not buy the cheapest adapter you can
find on eBay for God's sakes.

682
01:02:08,938 --> 01:02:11,642
Buy the one from your car maker.

683
01:02:11,642 --> 01:02:14,805
There are reasons it's more expensive.

684
01:02:14,865 --> 01:02:16,504
That's it's topic.

685
01:02:16,504 --> 01:02:16,835
agree.

686
01:02:16,835 --> 01:02:28,497
And it'll be interesting to see like, think the 2025 IONX or something like there's
finally some automakers that have them natively, but it's still kind of rare.

687
01:02:28,497 --> 01:02:41,289
The US built 2025 Hyundai IONIQ 5 does have a Naxport and they will provide you with a
free adapter the other way so you can use CCS charging cables.

688
01:02:43,002 --> 01:02:50,497
But I mean, with that evolution, mean, and it's kind of interesting you mentioned the
Mach-E, but like, obviously with a lot of these 800 volt vehicles, that has been kind of

689
01:02:50,497 --> 01:02:56,710
what people have pushed back with the supercharged network is obviously doesn't quite take
advantage of that just yet.

690
01:02:58,812 --> 01:03:02,234
Where do you see this all going as far as, I mean,

691
01:03:04,034 --> 01:03:08,886
What do you think are the biggest hurdles remaining for EV charging for DC fast?

692
01:03:08,886 --> 01:03:14,738
Or is it really just reliability still has a long ways to go and that needs to improve or
is it optics and education?

693
01:03:14,738 --> 01:03:20,211
What if someone said, John, you're hired to figure DC fast charging in North America, what
would you say?

694
01:03:20,211 --> 01:03:24,042
Like, okay, these are the three things we need to do today or get going on.

695
01:03:26,751 --> 01:03:28,618
So reliability first and foremost.

696
01:03:28,618 --> 01:03:30,171
that's how most people would answer at first.

697
01:03:30,171 --> 01:03:30,747
Yeah

698
01:03:30,747 --> 01:03:34,369
Yeah, the reliability has to be there.

699
01:03:34,369 --> 01:03:47,784
it's because there are so many players on any given DC fast charge, you have a utility,
you have a credit card authorization, you have a car maker, you have a charging network,

700
01:03:47,784 --> 01:03:50,355
all of those pieces have to work perfectly.

701
01:03:50,355 --> 01:03:55,437
And if they don't, you can have either power downgrades or it just doesn't work.

702
01:03:55,918 --> 01:03:58,887
So reliability, first and foremost, and that's

703
01:03:58,887 --> 01:04:03,127
an iterative process, I think the networks are getting better at it.

704
01:04:03,707 --> 01:04:05,747
Secondly, awareness.

705
01:04:05,887 --> 01:04:13,647
There is, as an EV driver knows, a very large amount of EV charging already out there.

706
01:04:13,647 --> 01:04:24,227
But because it's basically some variant of a white box on a stick with a hose hanging from
it, you know, people don't know, they don't see it.

707
01:04:24,227 --> 01:04:28,123
They know what a gas station looks like, especially if it has a 150 foot pole.

708
01:04:28,123 --> 01:04:31,724
that's visible from the interstate that has a gas brand on it, right?

709
01:04:31,724 --> 01:04:34,325
We don't have any of that for you.

710
01:04:34,345 --> 01:04:37,385
One of the things IANA promises is signage.

711
01:04:38,326 --> 01:04:40,576
And, you know, it's an added challenge.

712
01:04:40,576 --> 01:04:52,600
Electrify America did at one point say, look, we are renting parking lot space and
installing high voltage electrical equipment from Walmart, getting permission from

713
01:04:52,600 --> 01:04:57,214
Walmart's landlord to install a structure.

714
01:04:57,214 --> 01:04:58,540
Yeah.

715
01:04:58,659 --> 01:05:02,901
with signage and lighting is a whole separate thing.

716
01:05:02,901 --> 01:05:04,021
And I get that.

717
01:05:04,021 --> 01:05:06,362
That was sort of, that was that stage.

718
01:05:06,362 --> 01:05:18,065
Now I think the branding and the emergence of consumer friendly EV charging brands that
have other stuff will play into it, whether it's convenience stores or standalones like

719
01:05:18,065 --> 01:05:20,586
IANA or EA or whoever.

720
01:05:21,226 --> 01:05:24,527
And I think the third thing is

721
01:05:24,741 --> 01:05:33,258
the pace at which electrical utilities operate versus the pace at which charging networks
operate.

722
01:05:33,659 --> 01:05:47,409
I have heard more than one charging network engineers say, look, once we get permitted, we
can stand up an EV charging station, a DC fast charging station with eight or 12 stalls,

723
01:05:47,730 --> 01:05:51,012
ideally in 30 to 45 days.

724
01:05:51,513 --> 01:05:53,829
But then the power company

725
01:05:53,829 --> 01:06:02,707
which we've talked to at the very beginning of the process, has said, once you get your
permits, come back and talk to us and then it'll be 18 to 36 months.

726
01:06:03,088 --> 01:06:16,139
That is not the speed that's necessary, but electric utilities have very long timeframes
like automakers and squaring that circle is a non-trivial.

727
01:06:17,304 --> 01:06:27,783
No, I think that's a great call out and I we're starting to see it speed up a little bit,
but honestly, it's funny to me that, I think there was a lot of great intentions and I'm

728
01:06:27,783 --> 01:06:38,362
always a big believer that the, path to hell is paved with good intentions with Nevi and
that kind of stuff around like what it could do and what it was trying to get more charges

729
01:06:38,362 --> 01:06:38,703
out there.

730
01:06:38,703 --> 01:06:45,078
But I really think from a regulatory standpoint, that's what's needed is like just
essentially speeding up a permit or

731
01:06:45,092 --> 01:06:54,227
Creating some sort of process that like, if these three boxes are checked, that puts it
into kind of like a faster approval process or.

732
01:06:54,227 --> 01:06:56,347
the permitting part.

733
01:06:56,546 --> 01:07:07,367
It's the electric utility just saying, you know, we know when someone's building a Walmart
Supercenter, but it takes 36 months to build a Walmart Supercenter from the time

734
01:07:07,367 --> 01:07:10,727
construction starts to the time you're ready to flip on the lights.

735
01:07:10,987 --> 01:07:21,747
That's what we now you're all of a sudden saying you got your permits and you want that
same volume of electricity in 45 days.

736
01:07:22,968 --> 01:07:24,700
Yeah, that's that's a fair call.

737
01:07:24,700 --> 01:07:32,526
I I'm saying I use I say permitting, but you're right permitting, but specifically kind of
approval process or some sort of buying with these utilities.

738
01:07:32,907 --> 01:07:41,615
But it is kind of interesting, I think, talking about this and you've brought you brought
up with electrify Mary, I mean, Walmart now we've talked about them is actually getting

739
01:07:41,615 --> 01:07:44,477
into charging and they're looking to do it pretty aggressively.

740
01:07:44,577 --> 01:07:45,289
And with how

741
01:07:45,289 --> 01:07:51,942
curious to see how that plays out because Walmart knows cost reduction and logistics like
nobody else.

742
01:07:52,122 --> 01:07:56,181
Yeah, I mean, they have a formula for building their locations.

743
01:07:56,181 --> 01:08:00,422
so adding some chargers to it seems like a pretty clear value add.

744
01:08:00,422 --> 01:08:06,682
I know a couple, I'm hoping we can get a couple of the people on, cause I know them that
work there who have been in the space for a while.

745
01:08:06,682 --> 01:08:09,122
So they're pretty serious about making it happen.

746
01:08:09,342 --> 01:08:20,322
And that is where I'm kind of curious about how many of these EA locations that expire in
the next, in the next few years that are at Walmart's, if they will be approved or not, or

747
01:08:20,322 --> 01:08:21,070
it's like,

748
01:08:21,070 --> 01:08:22,631
Thanks for the doing all the hard work.

749
01:08:22,631 --> 01:08:34,190
We'll take it from here as far as being replaced with and you're so right with the I for
listeners, I don't know how much they know about Walmart, but it seems like a very simple

750
01:08:34,190 --> 01:08:34,480
brand.

751
01:08:34,480 --> 01:08:38,263
But Walmart is one of those companies that take brand very seriously.

752
01:08:38,343 --> 01:08:47,540
And so having a big kind of traditional looking kind of a gas station looking thing that
you would see in a highway in their parking lot.

753
01:08:47,802 --> 01:08:48,802
does not really fly.

754
01:08:48,802 --> 01:08:53,282
Now, if it was Walmart branded and it's a Walmart charger, I could see that happening
easily.

755
01:08:53,302 --> 01:09:00,602
But one that's electrify America that's competing with any of the Walmart brand stuff is
always going to be an uphill battle.

756
01:09:01,322 --> 01:09:03,702
But, John, I've really appreciated this conversation.

757
01:09:03,702 --> 01:09:07,042
know, I mean, with everything we've discussed, there's so much more we could talk about.

758
01:09:07,042 --> 01:09:11,702
We didn't even get into really Chinese EVs or software and how that plays into all of
this.

759
01:09:11,702 --> 01:09:14,042
So we're gonna have to save that for another podcast.

760
01:09:14,042 --> 01:09:17,774
I know you've got stuff to do today, but before we go, I do want you to

761
01:09:17,774 --> 01:09:24,032
Kind of just talk a little bit about tempting fate tours and we'll wrap up with that and
we'll have to have you get on soon.

762
01:09:24,032 --> 01:09:27,249
But let's, let's make sure we hit that before we take all of your time today.

763
01:09:27,249 --> 01:09:42,096
So for those who are still with us, Tempting Fake Tours, find us on YouTube, find us on
Instagram, find us on Facebook, is my weird little side hustle with a bunch of similar

764
01:09:42,096 --> 01:09:43,157
crazy car notes.

765
01:09:43,157 --> 01:09:44,248
no, no, no, it's not weird.

766
01:09:44,248 --> 01:09:45,670
It's entertaining.

767
01:09:45,871 --> 01:09:47,282
Maybe I'll give you quirky.

768
01:09:47,282 --> 01:09:49,015
I'll give you quirky at times.

769
01:09:49,015 --> 01:09:50,447
But no, no, it's weird.

770
01:09:50,447 --> 01:09:51,388
Weird sounds too negative.

771
01:09:51,388 --> 01:09:52,539
No, it's very entertaining.

772
01:09:52,539 --> 01:09:53,401
It's great.

773
01:09:53,401 --> 01:09:54,595
But I'm sorry, continue.

774
01:09:54,595 --> 01:09:57,075
a weird is never negative, but hey.

775
01:09:57,175 --> 01:10:07,975
So the goal basically is to do road trips in usually much older cars, frequently British,
often unreliable.

776
01:10:07,975 --> 01:10:13,495
Those two often go together and sort of document the results.

777
01:10:13,695 --> 01:10:27,246
And it got started when, after a really bad bout of cabin fever, Buddy and I decided to
buy two of the most unreliable British cars sold in the 80s, called a Sterling, and drive

778
01:10:27,246 --> 01:10:37,534
them from Portland to a car meet called Radwood in Austin, Texas, which we found out
somewhere in New Mexico was postponed for six weeks.

779
01:10:37,534 --> 01:10:38,515
Great.

780
01:10:38,515 --> 01:10:40,877
So anyway, that was our first series.

781
01:10:40,877 --> 01:10:43,557
We competed in something called the Lemons Rally.

782
01:10:43,557 --> 01:10:48,592
which is, as they call it, road rallying for hoopties.

783
01:10:48,878 --> 01:10:49,719
Yeah.

784
01:10:50,678 --> 01:10:51,573
And what's the role?

785
01:10:51,573 --> 01:10:55,891
It's like essentially Lamont, but it's under five grand or.

786
01:10:56,333 --> 01:10:57,213
Yeah.

787
01:10:58,277 --> 01:10:58,879
Yeah.

788
01:10:58,879 --> 01:11:11,119
that's that, um, that essentially says we have legit racing on legit racing circuits,
endurance racing, but the car has to have cost you 500 bucks or less.

789
01:11:11,119 --> 01:11:14,299
And by the way, our judges are amenable to bribes.

790
01:11:14,299 --> 01:11:16,239
Costumes get you points.

791
01:11:16,239 --> 01:11:18,259
Misbehavior gets you points.

792
01:11:18,259 --> 01:11:22,159
We're in the rally offshoot of that, which is.

793
01:11:22,159 --> 01:11:26,121
not speed rallying, you have to comply more or less with speed limits.

794
01:11:26,121 --> 01:11:39,188
But essentially we took two old British cars and drove them a thousand miles in three days
through New England, stopping at dozens of checkpoints to take a picture of the car, the

795
01:11:39,188 --> 01:11:41,830
checkpoint and us posted on Instagram.

796
01:11:41,830 --> 01:11:43,230
And it's a point system.

797
01:11:43,230 --> 01:11:52,039
And we actually got an award because one of our cars was extremely old, extremely
unreliable, supposedly unreliable.

798
01:11:52,039 --> 01:11:54,519
but extremely unexpected.

799
01:11:55,039 --> 01:12:02,419
so we are just winding up last summer's tour where we took a 70 and a 75 year old car
through the Netherlands.

800
01:12:03,919 --> 01:12:09,859
And you can actually drive hundreds of miles in 70 and 75 year old cars.

801
01:12:09,859 --> 01:12:15,699
It's best to be accompanied by other 70 to 75 year old cars because they're slow too.

802
01:12:16,282 --> 01:12:17,602
There's so much easier to work on.

803
01:12:17,602 --> 01:12:18,322
That's the upside.

804
01:12:18,322 --> 01:12:25,982
As long as you know, you need like five wrenches if that and maybe spare tires and a
couple other things and hoses.

805
01:12:25,982 --> 01:12:28,103
plan and offer lots of advice.

806
01:12:28,984 --> 01:12:42,573
So, and we have some plans coming up for this year because it looks like we've bought one
if not two non-running, unreliable old cars that have been off the road for 40 or 50

807
01:12:42,573 --> 01:12:43,043
years.

808
01:12:43,043 --> 01:12:44,654
So stay tuned.

809
01:12:44,654 --> 01:12:45,969
Tenting plate tours.

810
01:12:45,969 --> 01:12:49,683
are or will that be, is that part of the teaser?

811
01:12:50,726 --> 01:12:51,248
Okay.

812
01:12:51,248 --> 01:12:54,250
trying to get the last summer done first.

813
01:12:55,070 --> 01:12:58,632
Yeah, but so find us on YouTube.

814
01:12:58,632 --> 01:13:00,613
Most of the videos are short.

815
01:13:00,613 --> 01:13:05,076
We're not, this is not the hour and a half long video about EV charging.

816
01:13:05,076 --> 01:13:07,397
These are sort of five to eight minute videos.

817
01:13:07,397 --> 01:13:11,789
So, but yeah, come visit us and thanks for letting me make the plug.

818
01:13:12,153 --> 01:13:20,276
We'll have links to all of what we've discussed today and more along with to the Tempting
Fate Tour YouTube page.

819
01:13:20,376 --> 01:13:21,447
just once again, thank you.

820
01:13:21,447 --> 01:13:22,858
We'll have to have you again soon.

821
01:13:22,858 --> 01:13:26,259
This industry is always changing so much so fast.

822
01:13:26,359 --> 01:13:29,230
And so it's really always interesting to hear your insights.

823
01:13:29,229 --> 01:13:31,454
So thank you so much for being on today, John

824
01:13:31,454 --> 01:13:32,433
Thank you for having me.

825
01:13:32,433 --> 01:13:33,339
Talk to you next time.

826
01:13:38,464 --> 01:13:40,735
That's a wrap on this episode of Grid Connections.

827
01:13:40,735 --> 01:13:49,279
A huge thanks to John Voelcker for joining us and sharing his deep insights into the
shifting landscape of electric vehicles, tariffs, and the future of electric vehicle

828
01:13:49,279 --> 01:13:50,179
charging.

829
01:13:50,179 --> 01:13:59,243
From the impact of tariffs on vehicle prices to the evolution of EV infrastructure, and
even the ongoing debate around plug-in hybrids, there's no shortage of big changes

830
01:13:59,243 --> 01:14:01,223
happening in the auto industry.

831
01:14:01,304 --> 01:14:06,426
One thing's for sure, this space moves fast, and we'll be here to keep you ahead of the
curve.

832
01:14:06,646 --> 01:14:09,027
Please do us a favor, help spread the word.

833
01:14:09,027 --> 01:14:14,428
Share this episode with at least one friend, colleague, or fellow car enthusiast who would
enjoy this discussion too.

834
01:14:14,428 --> 01:14:17,749
Plus, leave us a quick review on your favorite podcast app.

835
01:14:17,749 --> 01:14:20,630
It really helps more people discover the show.

836
01:14:20,630 --> 01:14:22,371
And want even more insights?

837
01:14:22,371 --> 01:14:28,053
Sign up for our new newsletter to get the latest trends, expert interviews, and behind the
scenes updates.

838
01:14:28,053 --> 01:14:32,894
You can find the link to this and many more along with our newsletter in today's show
notes.

839
01:14:33,024 --> 01:14:38,302
Thanks for tuning in and until next time, this is the Grid Connections Podcast signing
off.