1 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,040 Periodically is back for season two. 2 00:00:09,340 --> 00:00:12,110 We are still going to be talking to you about all things periods and 3 00:00:12,110 --> 00:00:14,529 chemistry, but this time we have a twist. 4 00:00:15,159 --> 00:00:17,880 This year, we are very grateful to welcome guests onto the 5 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:19,540 podcast from all over the UK. 6 00:00:20,130 --> 00:00:23,860 In our next six episodes, our guests will be talking to us about their experiences 7 00:00:23,860 --> 00:00:28,110 with menstrual and reproductive health, where we take a deep dive into topics 8 00:00:28,110 --> 00:00:32,269 ranging from endometriosis, pregnancy and the menopause to name a few. 9 00:00:32,785 --> 00:00:36,685 Our guests represent a wide range of experiences, and are at different points 10 00:00:36,695 --> 00:00:40,195 in their career and we hope this will shed light on the impact that menstruation 11 00:00:40,195 --> 00:00:41,854 can have at all points in our lives. 12 00:00:42,054 --> 00:00:45,835 We still continue our quest to find out and talk about how menstruation can 13 00:00:45,835 --> 00:00:47,974 sometimes just get in the bloody way. 14 00:00:48,225 --> 00:00:52,045 This year, we'd like to thank the RSC Inclusion and Diversity Fund, 15 00:00:52,135 --> 00:00:56,195 the University of Oxford Chemistry Department and the EPSRC funded 16 00:00:56,355 --> 00:00:59,415 OxICFM CDT for supporting the podcast. 17 00:01:00,195 --> 00:01:03,535 Hi and welcome back to a new episode of Periodically Season Two. 18 00:01:03,964 --> 00:01:05,684 Your hosts today are me, Charlie, and... 19 00:01:05,684 --> 00:01:06,044 Manami. 20 00:01:07,100 --> 00:01:10,590 We have another fantastic guest with us today, who we 21 00:01:10,590 --> 00:01:12,800 are very excited to introduce. 22 00:01:13,244 --> 00:01:15,285 Sat across from us today is the inspiring Dr. 23 00:01:15,285 --> 00:01:18,375 Jenny Burnham, who is currently a chemistry teaching specialist 24 00:01:18,375 --> 00:01:19,805 at the University of Sheffield. 25 00:01:20,245 --> 00:01:22,224 So Jenny, if you would like to introduce yourself? 26 00:01:22,644 --> 00:01:24,274 Hi, I'm a chemist. 27 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:27,480 I've been a teaching specialist at the University of Sheffield 28 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:28,930 for quite a long time. 29 00:01:29,210 --> 00:01:31,260 Nineteen years, that sounds like a long time. 30 00:01:31,679 --> 00:01:37,499 I've done a PhD, I've got two postdocs and they asked me to have a fascinating fact. 31 00:01:37,980 --> 00:01:42,070 So I firmly believe that boron is the best element in the periodic 32 00:01:42,070 --> 00:01:43,660 table by quite a long way. 33 00:01:43,735 --> 00:01:46,255 I would argue that I have a different favourite element, 34 00:01:46,255 --> 00:01:47,365 but Boron is pretty good! 35 00:01:47,804 --> 00:01:48,304 Boron is best! 36 00:01:49,014 --> 00:01:52,344 So yeah, in today's episode, Jenny will be sharing with us her personal 37 00:01:52,344 --> 00:01:55,604 experiences with menstrual and reproductive health and how they've 38 00:01:55,604 --> 00:01:59,725 impacted her and her career, particularly her experiences with infertility and 39 00:01:59,735 --> 00:02:03,405 miscarriage, as just a quick trigger warning for the rest of the episode. 40 00:02:03,975 --> 00:02:08,235 In academia, the average appointment of assistant professors is at age around 41 00:02:08,445 --> 00:02:12,915 37, and this is often the first permanent contract, but sometimes not even that. 42 00:02:13,605 --> 00:02:16,315 Therefore, thinking about having a family can be delayed for some 43 00:02:16,315 --> 00:02:18,594 people, especially women in academia. 44 00:02:19,305 --> 00:02:22,614 On top of this, reproductive health can also be very complicated. 45 00:02:23,054 --> 00:02:26,850 In recognised pregnancies, there is a 15 percent risk of miscarriage, 46 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,680 which unfortunately increases with age, along with other complications. 47 00:02:31,430 --> 00:02:34,949 All these factors can make family planning process harder and more complicated. 48 00:02:35,570 --> 00:02:38,889 Often the expectations of academics in early years require the ability 49 00:02:38,889 --> 00:02:41,999 to travel, work long hours, and work short term contracts. 50 00:02:42,575 --> 00:02:46,695 Particularly with travel to conferences and changing institutions, which 51 00:02:46,695 --> 00:02:50,255 is sometimes a requirement of particular grants, can make things 52 00:02:50,255 --> 00:02:52,954 harder if you either have children or you're planning to have children. 53 00:02:53,524 --> 00:02:56,745 We hope that this episode will shed some light on the challenges that 54 00:02:56,745 --> 00:03:00,314 researching and working in chemistry and academia in general can have 55 00:03:00,314 --> 00:03:03,975 on those who want to have both a successful academic career and a family. 56 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,930 Jenny, thank you for joining us on the podcast today and making 57 00:03:07,930 --> 00:03:09,960 the trip down to record with us. 58 00:03:10,330 --> 00:03:15,309 To start with, would you like to point out the first time you realised that menstrual 59 00:03:15,310 --> 00:03:17,839 health was impacting your life and career? 60 00:03:17,935 --> 00:03:21,285 So it kind of creeps up on you, the life choices. 61 00:03:21,705 --> 00:03:26,175 My chemistry career, I finished my PhD in Bristol and it took me to St 62 00:03:26,185 --> 00:03:32,724 Andrews, Germany and Oxford, after we all left Bristol and my now husband 63 00:03:33,695 --> 00:03:38,950 was based in Sheffield and long distance did not work well for us. 64 00:03:39,550 --> 00:03:46,320 So I had the choice of settling down with him or a chemistry career. 65 00:03:46,420 --> 00:03:47,860 So that wasn't a choice for me. 66 00:03:48,649 --> 00:03:52,310 I wanted to settle down with him, so I took the first job in chemistry 67 00:03:52,350 --> 00:03:54,400 that came up in the Sheffield area. 68 00:03:55,089 --> 00:03:58,399 It could have been a graduate job at the civil service because they've 69 00:03:58,399 --> 00:04:02,260 got offices in Sheffield, or it could have been a post at Health and Safety 70 00:04:02,610 --> 00:04:06,279 Laboratory, which at its time was based in Sheffield, it's now moved out to Buxton. 71 00:04:06,779 --> 00:04:10,900 But as it was, it was a teaching assistant post in the Department of 72 00:04:10,900 --> 00:04:14,920 Chemistry at the University of Sheffield and I've been there ever since! 73 00:04:15,139 --> 00:04:18,644 It was by accident, and when you're planning a career, that 74 00:04:18,644 --> 00:04:21,724 sounds rubbish, that you're, how did you end up where you were? 75 00:04:21,725 --> 00:04:26,075 Well, it was kind of an accident, but it's worked out really well 76 00:04:26,075 --> 00:04:29,015 and that's not very helpful for a young person looking forward, but 77 00:04:29,015 --> 00:04:30,235 that's why I ended up where I was. 78 00:04:31,015 --> 00:04:36,894 I was 29 when I moved to Sheffield, so I was getting old and I wanted 79 00:04:37,345 --> 00:04:40,255 security to start a family and I wanted to start a family. 80 00:04:40,705 --> 00:04:46,750 So, for me and my upbringing, it's traditional, so you need a secure 81 00:04:46,750 --> 00:04:51,120 job and you need to be living with your partner and then you need to 82 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:52,749 get married and then you do children. 83 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,930 That's not everyone, but that was the way, my mind worked. 84 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:02,495 So we got married when I was 31 and then children did not come immediately. 85 00:05:03,414 --> 00:05:07,544 So, I love teaching undergraduate students, students are awesome. 86 00:05:08,304 --> 00:05:10,115 Working with them is so much fun. 87 00:05:10,335 --> 00:05:13,184 I learn so much from my students. 88 00:05:13,345 --> 00:05:20,605 However, my undergraduate students are not the cleanest in the lab, for 89 00:05:20,605 --> 00:05:22,265 perfectly understandable reasons. 90 00:05:22,445 --> 00:05:27,554 They are learning, so this is new to them and they're quite young, so they're sort 91 00:05:27,554 --> 00:05:34,724 of 19, 20 year olds and so going back to when I started, it was in the mid 2000s. 92 00:05:35,134 --> 00:05:40,620 So laboratory and chemical containment was not what we would expect in 2024. 93 00:05:41,840 --> 00:05:49,700 So for me, pregnancy and that oozy black stuff and the other chemicals that 94 00:05:49,700 --> 00:05:52,760 were sort of, you could smell in the lab, they were completely incompatible 95 00:05:53,330 --> 00:05:57,210 and so working in the labs was not an option whilst I was pregnant. 96 00:05:57,280 --> 00:06:02,570 So I've had three pregnancies since I have been in Sheffield and my work identity has 97 00:06:02,570 --> 00:06:09,365 been really closely tied to teaching in the second year inorganic lab, that's me. 98 00:06:09,905 --> 00:06:13,225 But for three pregnancies, that's three academic years of work, 99 00:06:14,115 --> 00:06:17,385 my work at work was different. 100 00:06:17,644 --> 00:06:23,265 So I wasn't doing lots of lab teaching, I was doing lots of not lab 101 00:06:23,305 --> 00:06:28,420 teaching, marking and running the lab course from outside of the lab door. 102 00:06:29,210 --> 00:06:34,679 So I've been very lucky, and fortunate timing's just worked with my pregnancies 103 00:06:34,910 --> 00:06:38,560 to be able to arrange that just happens within the normal workload 104 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,970 planning cycles of the academic year, it's just how it's worked. 105 00:06:42,649 --> 00:06:47,630 So devastatingly for me, the first of these pregnancies resulted in a 106 00:06:47,630 --> 00:06:55,905 miscarriage and what was worse is that my miscarriage happened fairly early on in 107 00:06:55,905 --> 00:06:57,855 the pregnancy and it was in the summer. 108 00:06:58,145 --> 00:07:02,145 So the academic work for the next year had been assigned but I wasn't 109 00:07:02,145 --> 00:07:09,205 pregnant anymore and it was very obvious that there was a mismatch and 110 00:07:09,355 --> 00:07:11,795 it didn't help and it's just weird. 111 00:07:12,570 --> 00:07:16,100 I'm really sorry that this is something that you went through. 112 00:07:16,890 --> 00:07:21,489 I think that there's a lot of stuff that we're not really thinking about, in terms 113 00:07:21,490 --> 00:07:26,269 of, you know, as you said, you'd actually planned to be pregnant and then when that 114 00:07:26,290 --> 00:07:30,310 comes around and you actually end up where you're in this situation kind of limbo, 115 00:07:30,330 --> 00:07:35,420 I guess, of assigned work that you're expected to do and then is actually, you 116 00:07:35,420 --> 00:07:39,040 know, something that you could do more of, that you wanted to go back into the lab 117 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,380 maybe, and go a bit more back to normal, but that's already been sorted out. 118 00:07:42,719 --> 00:07:45,010 I guess that must have been really hard to go through. 119 00:07:45,610 --> 00:07:48,800 Going on from this, is there anything that you think that either the 120 00:07:48,810 --> 00:07:54,070 society or the workplace could have done to make the experience that you 121 00:07:54,070 --> 00:07:58,440 had easier and hopefully for other people that might go through it. 122 00:07:58,715 --> 00:08:01,375 We need to talk about miscarriage more when it happens. 123 00:08:01,435 --> 00:08:02,545 It's quite common. 124 00:08:03,054 --> 00:08:03,984 You can look up the stats. 125 00:08:03,984 --> 00:08:06,614 I think it's one in three pregnancies end up in miscarriage. 126 00:08:06,615 --> 00:08:08,375 They're nodding, so yes. 127 00:08:08,924 --> 00:08:12,418 It needs to be normal, it needs to be not a taboo subject. 128 00:08:12,418 --> 00:08:20,115 So I felt very ashamed that I'd lost my baby and no one should feel ashamed 129 00:08:20,115 --> 00:08:28,169 if they lose a baby, it happens, it's common, it happened to me and the more 130 00:08:28,210 --> 00:08:32,309 you talk about it, the more you find out, oh, well, it's happened to someone 131 00:08:32,309 --> 00:08:38,580 else too and therein we find support for, oh yeah, it happened to me too. 132 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:40,520 It's really shit, isn't it? 133 00:08:41,390 --> 00:08:47,590 I also think that higher education need to support pregnancy earlier 134 00:08:47,620 --> 00:08:49,060 on in the academic career. 135 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,260 I was 33 when I miscarried. 136 00:08:52,560 --> 00:08:53,669 It was a bit of a surprise. 137 00:08:53,680 --> 00:08:58,090 I was in the hospital and I saw on the notes there was F33. 138 00:08:59,110 --> 00:09:01,310 I was like, Oh, I'm 33 years old. 139 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,640 It was a bit of a surprise, I'd not been keeping track. 140 00:09:06,380 --> 00:09:11,020 Risk of miscarriages is lowest for under 30s and it rises 141 00:09:11,049 --> 00:09:12,480 pretty rapidly after that. 142 00:09:12,810 --> 00:09:18,760 So it should be normal for chemistry academics, male and female, to start 143 00:09:19,039 --> 00:09:20,990 their families earlier than I did. 144 00:09:21,340 --> 00:09:22,560 Those would be two things. 145 00:09:23,060 --> 00:09:26,710 Being able and being normal to start earlier, you're less likely 146 00:09:26,710 --> 00:09:32,135 to miscarry and just talking about miscarriage in society normalises it. 147 00:09:32,145 --> 00:09:35,105 It's not that secret thing that happened. 148 00:09:35,790 --> 00:09:40,550 I think that with the point you brought up about kind of addressing this earlier 149 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:45,760 is something that I as someone who's going to be 27 soon and not quite sure 150 00:09:45,790 --> 00:09:50,730 my like people in my family have started to have babies and stuff like that, not 151 00:09:50,730 --> 00:09:55,400 sure I do yet, but I would really like to know that if I wanted to carry on 152 00:09:55,880 --> 00:10:01,560 with a career in chemistry academia, how that would be kind of compatible with me 153 00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:05,680 perhaps wanting to start a family and that is just something that unless we talked 154 00:10:05,719 --> 00:10:08,280 about, I've had really good experience because I've been able to talk to people 155 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:13,030 like you and ask for your advice, but it's not something that is kind of talked 156 00:10:13,050 --> 00:10:17,079 about enough and I think sometimes people almost want to shy away from it because 157 00:10:17,420 --> 00:10:21,349 they're like, oh, it's maybe a bit complex or actually, you know, we, kind of want 158 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,159 these people just to keep working and working and if we don't tell them about 159 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:29,350 it, then maybe they might not need the help that we should be giving them. 160 00:10:29,859 --> 00:10:34,109 I don't know if the onus is on some kind of institutions to try and start 161 00:10:34,109 --> 00:10:38,810 thinking actively about this and then also if they try again and make it a 162 00:10:38,810 --> 00:10:42,149 bit more of a environment where this is, you know, comfortable to talk about 163 00:10:42,500 --> 00:10:45,879 and more normalized then people are going to feel more comfortable, people 164 00:10:45,879 --> 00:10:49,710 are going to be happier at work, you know, they're gonna, yeah, probably 165 00:10:49,710 --> 00:10:53,900 be a lot happier in the long term, if you give them some support early on. 166 00:10:54,295 --> 00:10:59,815 One of the things that I found mind blowing, the way you keep in context, 167 00:10:59,885 --> 00:11:04,275 so this is context, one of the first tutorial groups that I taught when I 168 00:11:04,284 --> 00:11:09,245 first arrived at Sheffield, so bearing in mind I was 29 and so the students 169 00:11:09,245 --> 00:11:10,865 would have been 10 years younger than me. 170 00:11:11,745 --> 00:11:17,335 I have since found out that one of those, one of those students has got a child 171 00:11:17,745 --> 00:11:20,125 that is the same age as one of my kids. 172 00:11:21,035 --> 00:11:24,825 This guy, he finished university, he went and got a professional 173 00:11:24,845 --> 00:11:27,455 job, settled down, had a family. 174 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:34,590 Ten years ahead of me in the whole family thing, that's mind blowing for me. 175 00:11:35,060 --> 00:11:35,710 Wow. 176 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,984 Yeah, there's a lot to consider and it's really interesting hearing you say that. 177 00:11:40,035 --> 00:11:44,665 your side of it because, you know, we're going to be experiencing this at some 178 00:11:44,675 --> 00:11:48,884 point and yeah, what you said about miscarriages needing to be a less taboo 179 00:11:48,885 --> 00:11:54,174 topic is so true and we just don't learn about it enough and it really needs to 180 00:11:54,175 --> 00:11:58,754 be brought up more and mentioned and yeah, something I find interesting which 181 00:11:58,755 --> 00:12:03,305 Jenny brought up is how experiences with reproductive and mental health 182 00:12:03,555 --> 00:12:07,964 are correlating with points in which we lose a lot of female talent in academia. 183 00:12:08,515 --> 00:12:12,405 Jenny, do you have any thoughts on why we see the first drop 184 00:12:12,485 --> 00:12:16,645 around the transition from postdoc to an early careers researcher? 185 00:12:17,210 --> 00:12:23,749 We're not stupid, we're quite clever and quite bright because we have 186 00:12:23,749 --> 00:12:28,089 the potential to be awesome thinkers because that's what an academic is. 187 00:12:29,850 --> 00:12:34,630 So there's a fabulous report, it's called the RSC Breaking the Barriers report. 188 00:12:35,020 --> 00:12:39,270 It's excellent, somewhat shocking read about where female 189 00:12:39,270 --> 00:12:41,120 talent in academia is lost. 190 00:12:41,809 --> 00:12:45,969 It's published a few years ago, it's pre pandemic so it dates it, but the 191 00:12:45,969 --> 00:12:47,999 messages in it still hold true today. 192 00:12:48,010 --> 00:12:50,065 You'll read it anyway, yep, yep. 193 00:12:51,015 --> 00:12:56,915 Parenthood and the challenges associated with care of children underpin 194 00:12:57,085 --> 00:13:01,125 all of the top factors obstructing progression of women in academia. 195 00:13:01,975 --> 00:13:04,105 There's the unattractiveness of short term contracts. 196 00:13:04,414 --> 00:13:08,420 I wanted stability, I didn't want to be hopping around looking for a 197 00:13:08,420 --> 00:13:12,790 new job every six to nine months, long working hours, how many people 198 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,579 spend 10 hours a day in the lab? 199 00:13:15,919 --> 00:13:21,430 Well, that doesn't work if the school hours are shorter than that, balancing 200 00:13:21,430 --> 00:13:27,970 of responsibilities, you can't just go home and work on a paper because 201 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,630 you've got Other things to be doing when they're really small, you've got 202 00:13:32,660 --> 00:13:38,360 bedtime and you've got the cooking and the cleaning and it just doesn't work. 203 00:13:38,499 --> 00:13:41,730 You need to be able to balance them and that's a challenge and it just 204 00:13:41,730 --> 00:13:47,385 makes the job of being an academic harder and there's societal challenges. 205 00:13:47,385 --> 00:13:53,844 I'm very fortunate, my husband is awesome, but for many people there's 206 00:13:53,845 --> 00:13:59,024 gender inequality just as a societal norm, the man works full time and is 207 00:13:59,045 --> 00:14:05,704 out of the house and the woman picks up most of the administration to do with 208 00:14:05,704 --> 00:14:12,555 the child and the taking the days off when child is ill and so there's the cost 209 00:14:12,555 --> 00:14:18,690 of child care which is getting higher and the fact that government subsidy, 210 00:14:18,870 --> 00:14:22,660 so political warning, governments, they're all blooming men, aren't they? 211 00:14:23,130 --> 00:14:27,580 Paid for childcare places are only paid for in school term time. 212 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:27,810 Yay! 213 00:14:28,819 --> 00:14:32,799 30 weeks of the year, like there's 52 weeks in the year gentlemen and then 214 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:37,750 there's the availability of childcare and also where the childcare is. 215 00:14:37,780 --> 00:14:43,975 I made a mistake, we had a fabulous childminder and she retired and 216 00:14:43,975 --> 00:14:48,085 there was a gap between convenient childminders where we lived. 217 00:14:48,125 --> 00:14:54,445 So I put my daughter into nursery and it was a nursery on my way to work. 218 00:14:54,485 --> 00:14:58,035 Great, I'll drop off my daughter on my way to work, go to work, 219 00:14:58,915 --> 00:14:59,945 pick her up on the way home. 220 00:14:59,995 --> 00:15:04,469 It was all fine until I became really quite poorly. 221 00:15:04,540 --> 00:15:09,660 I got an infection and I couldn't drive and all I wanted to do was sleep. 222 00:15:09,670 --> 00:15:17,219 So I had the choice of stay home and look after a toddler or go to work somehow 223 00:15:17,359 --> 00:15:21,229 with the toddler because actually work was the less option and so the mistake 224 00:15:21,229 --> 00:15:25,755 in there is the fact that because of geographically where the nursery was, my 225 00:15:25,755 --> 00:15:30,555 husband couldn't drop her off within the drop off time and get to work on time and 226 00:15:30,555 --> 00:15:33,965 he couldn't pick her up at the end of the day for the same reasons, so it hadn't 227 00:15:33,965 --> 00:15:35,764 even occurred to me until it happened. 228 00:15:36,605 --> 00:15:38,214 So there we are, we are not stupid. 229 00:15:38,794 --> 00:15:43,995 In the UK system, you've mentioned it, Charlie, you come to the end of your 230 00:15:44,005 --> 00:15:48,600 PhD, we come to the end relatively early, we're still sort of In our 20s. 231 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:54,490 In some societies where everything takes a bit longer, undergraduate 232 00:15:54,490 --> 00:15:58,619 courses are longer and then you do a longer master's and then you, PhD 233 00:15:58,620 --> 00:16:05,580 is longer, it's more normal to see pregnant PhD students in the lab. 234 00:16:05,750 --> 00:16:11,850 That's just the way it is, but we don't do that in the UK and so that's a thing 235 00:16:11,870 --> 00:16:17,400 that some people in your position are faced with the, Oh, I've got the choice. 236 00:16:17,410 --> 00:16:19,950 It's either I do a career or I have a family. 237 00:16:20,300 --> 00:16:24,699 You should be able to do both, but it's not something that you see very often. 238 00:16:25,069 --> 00:16:27,390 So it's not something that you think about. 239 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:32,320 The delights of being a chemistry academic, proper teaching and research 240 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,550 academic, is you don't walk straight from your PhD into a lectureship. 241 00:16:37,100 --> 00:16:40,680 I did meet someone, she was a biologist, and she did do that. 242 00:16:40,934 --> 00:16:41,684 Oh wow. 243 00:16:41,850 --> 00:16:44,690 I know, look at your reaction, oh wow! 244 00:16:45,030 --> 00:16:49,180 So, we're expected to do two postdocs. 245 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:54,950 It's frowned upon to do postdocs in your same institution, you're expected to go 246 00:16:54,970 --> 00:17:00,779 somewhere else and if you look at the geography of the UK, you don't get a lot 247 00:17:00,830 --> 00:17:05,460 of high quality research institutions all clustered in the same place, unless 248 00:17:05,860 --> 00:17:09,640 you're in the, what's it, the central belt in Scotland and you can sort of commute 249 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,480 between Glasgow and Edinburgh, or you're in the London area and then you've still 250 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,050 got commuting time, so that's really hard. 251 00:17:16,090 --> 00:17:21,369 So you're expected to move institutions which means you're expected to travel. 252 00:17:21,790 --> 00:17:24,480 It's okay when you're moving one person, but if you're moving a couple, 253 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:29,430 it's harder and if you're moving a couple with kids, it's harder again. 254 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,800 So, you know, we're not stupid, I'll come back to that, we're not stupid. 255 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:37,560 You can see this coming, so people step off the career ladder from that. 256 00:17:38,069 --> 00:17:39,810 We're also expected to travel for work. 257 00:17:40,300 --> 00:17:44,469 I'm really happy I've come down to Oxford today, it's really exciting, 258 00:17:44,750 --> 00:17:48,040 I've been able to do that because someone else is looking after my kids. 259 00:17:49,275 --> 00:17:54,255 If you think about the normal course of being an academic, they 260 00:17:54,255 --> 00:17:55,905 go off and they give seminars. 261 00:17:56,105 --> 00:17:59,605 So that's a day's travel and seminars typically in the afternoon. 262 00:17:59,605 --> 00:18:01,385 So you're getting back relatively... 263 00:18:02,085 --> 00:18:06,544 well after 3:30, you're getting back, so after school pickup time, or you're 264 00:18:06,544 --> 00:18:10,715 traveling overnight because the place that you're going to is harder and 265 00:18:10,715 --> 00:18:16,425 then you're traveling for conferences and you're traveling for PhD vivas and 266 00:18:16,425 --> 00:18:21,345 all of this is related to your normal course of research work, but that travel 267 00:18:21,385 --> 00:18:27,665 element, that sort of nipping off for a day here or there, becomes really 268 00:18:27,685 --> 00:18:33,265 challenging when you have to factor in the logistics of I've got a small child 269 00:18:33,595 --> 00:18:37,895 to look after, or a medium sized grumpy child that I need to ensure it has 270 00:18:37,905 --> 00:18:41,185 something related to a not chocolate diet. 271 00:18:42,335 --> 00:18:49,095 Add in the institutions in the UK are geographically widespread, it's unlikely 272 00:18:49,425 --> 00:18:54,284 you're going to be living, well maybe you will, but it's possible you're not 273 00:18:54,295 --> 00:19:00,814 going to be living in a city or a large town with easy access to grandparents. 274 00:19:00,934 --> 00:19:04,074 So where's that overnight stay coming from? 275 00:19:04,465 --> 00:19:08,804 And it's not impossible, it just adds to the complexity. 276 00:19:08,804 --> 00:19:09,725 So what does I call it? 277 00:19:10,065 --> 00:19:12,534 I call it the challenges of balancing responsibilities. 278 00:19:12,574 --> 00:19:15,454 This is the challenge of balancing the responsibility. 279 00:19:15,784 --> 00:19:17,534 Who does the drop off and pick up? 280 00:19:17,974 --> 00:19:22,495 Who does the care when the work is lasting more than the normal day? 281 00:19:22,885 --> 00:19:27,365 So, support networks are essential when you have a child and moving away 282 00:19:27,365 --> 00:19:28,925 from work takes you away from that. 283 00:19:29,735 --> 00:19:31,175 I work part time. 284 00:19:31,404 --> 00:19:34,465 This was a choice I made when I became a mum. 285 00:19:35,215 --> 00:19:36,295 It's what the mum does. 286 00:19:36,305 --> 00:19:38,655 We had a conversation, actually, me and my husband, do you want 287 00:19:38,655 --> 00:19:40,634 to work part time or shall I? 288 00:19:40,634 --> 00:19:42,715 And he was like, ooh, maybe you should, Jenny. 289 00:19:42,715 --> 00:19:43,174 Okay. 290 00:19:43,335 --> 00:19:44,755 Yep, I'm quite happy to work part time. 291 00:19:45,085 --> 00:19:46,035 Just thought I'd raise it. 292 00:19:46,555 --> 00:19:51,065 I like working part time and it's made being a mum much easier and 293 00:19:51,075 --> 00:19:55,465 my kids, it means I can help my kids do after school activities. 294 00:19:55,785 --> 00:20:00,405 So they've learned to swim in the after school swimming programme and do other 295 00:20:00,405 --> 00:20:07,045 clubs and activities and I have been able to spend time with them and working 296 00:20:07,045 --> 00:20:13,290 part time has really helped balance the demands of running a house and a family 297 00:20:13,750 --> 00:20:17,060 and working in a quite intense job. 298 00:20:17,170 --> 00:20:22,125 I think that's really important to go from how you're talking about the RSC 299 00:20:22,125 --> 00:20:27,035 Breaking Barriers Report where, you know, they kind of pinpoint these issues that 300 00:20:27,705 --> 00:20:32,674 I guess minority groups and particularly women are facing within progressing in 301 00:20:32,675 --> 00:20:38,965 chemistry academia and it to be so much centered around the possibility of wanting 302 00:20:39,365 --> 00:20:43,175 to have a family and to start a family and then also to, you know, maintain that 303 00:20:43,629 --> 00:20:47,560 and continue with your progression on and I think all the points that you talked 304 00:20:47,580 --> 00:20:52,699 about were things that are so massive and as you say we're not stupid we can 305 00:20:52,699 --> 00:20:56,610 see these coming and that seems to be why we're like oh actually if I do want 306 00:20:56,610 --> 00:21:00,390 to have a kid in like a couple of years time then maybe I need to do a postdoc 307 00:21:01,340 --> 00:21:07,290 in the UK as opposed to a postdoc in Europe but then it's like but the research 308 00:21:07,290 --> 00:21:12,150 that I want to do is better in Europe and not maybe somewhere near to where my 309 00:21:12,150 --> 00:21:13,940 mum and dad live or something like that. 310 00:21:14,670 --> 00:21:18,330 I think that's like something that is really resonating especially at the moment 311 00:21:18,330 --> 00:21:22,330 with me and the fact that you say you know these support networks are essential 312 00:21:22,330 --> 00:21:26,300 and a lot of the time people's support networks not always but they do come from 313 00:21:26,300 --> 00:21:31,900 family and being close to them is really important and sometimes really essential 314 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,170 to be able to, as you say be able to say, Oh, can you come and just look at the kids 315 00:21:36,210 --> 00:21:39,150 cause I'm late from work today and yeah, I think when you said that you had the 316 00:21:39,150 --> 00:21:44,800 opportunity to work part time, I think is something that is really great and 317 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,419 it's a great option to be able to have. 318 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,655 But I think that's something that also we don't know that is an option a lot 319 00:21:50,655 --> 00:21:54,385 of the time and I think that's really good to point out, you know, that we can 320 00:21:54,435 --> 00:21:58,575 ask our institutions that I would like to work part time and this is why, and 321 00:21:58,575 --> 00:22:01,685 I will continue to do all the things that I want to do, but I'm also going to 322 00:22:02,134 --> 00:22:04,765 look after my family at the same time. 323 00:22:05,125 --> 00:22:06,875 So yeah, thanks for highlighting all that. 324 00:22:06,925 --> 00:22:09,165 It was really, interesting. 325 00:22:09,165 --> 00:22:13,705 So I guess it's kind of the drop off that we see in this leaky pipeline, 326 00:22:13,705 --> 00:22:18,365 kind of between postdoc and going on to be an early career researcher. 327 00:22:18,770 --> 00:22:22,600 But we've also seen that there's a big drop off kind of a bit further 328 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:26,750 along that pipeline, which is getting women into senior management roles. 329 00:22:27,010 --> 00:22:30,700 So things that are like heads of department or, you know, those 330 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,670 senior leadership situations, we see another drop off. 331 00:22:34,730 --> 00:22:38,780 So do you have any thoughts on why this one is also happening as well? 332 00:22:38,780 --> 00:22:41,750 Because we might be able to address the first one, but now we also need 333 00:22:41,750 --> 00:22:45,060 to make sure that, you know, we have the longevity of these careers for 334 00:22:45,060 --> 00:22:47,880 these women that do actually even make it past the first drop off point. 335 00:22:48,090 --> 00:22:52,050 When the Breaking the Barriers report was written, I looked it up, nine percent 336 00:22:52,070 --> 00:22:58,219 of professors were women and things have improved, but not by much and across the 337 00:22:58,229 --> 00:23:04,600 UK, they look at their gender pay gap and we have gender pay parity up until 338 00:23:04,925 --> 00:23:12,415 child bearing age and at that point things split and men continue and the 339 00:23:12,415 --> 00:23:14,594 gender pay gap widens at that point. 340 00:23:15,315 --> 00:23:18,324 For me, I know you're saying part time work sounds great. 341 00:23:18,935 --> 00:23:21,605 Part time work is a problem for me and my career. 342 00:23:22,224 --> 00:23:28,025 I like part time work but I am coming to realise I've been working 343 00:23:28,025 --> 00:23:35,155 part time for 13 years now and I'm coming to realise that it's perhaps 344 00:23:35,235 --> 00:23:40,255 damaged my career to the extent that I will never make the next step. 345 00:23:40,625 --> 00:23:45,154 So I am senior lecturer level associate professor, I think 346 00:23:45,195 --> 00:23:46,875 that could be as far as I get. 347 00:23:47,655 --> 00:23:52,570 I'm going to give a health warning here, the problems are much worse 348 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:59,020 for mums who take a career break when their children are born and I can see 349 00:23:59,020 --> 00:24:00,550 the logic because we're not stupid. 350 00:24:00,550 --> 00:24:05,890 It's like, why on earth would I carry on working when all of my money and a 351 00:24:05,890 --> 00:24:08,120 bit more is going to pay the childcare? 352 00:24:08,730 --> 00:24:13,820 So in the immediate term, financially, it's sensible, but you step 353 00:24:13,820 --> 00:24:16,080 off the career path completely. 354 00:24:16,610 --> 00:24:20,580 If you choose to go back on, you get back on at the same point that you left it, 355 00:24:20,580 --> 00:24:27,680 but maybe five years have passed or even worse you've managed to work up the grade 356 00:24:27,690 --> 00:24:32,320 a little bit and you step off and you get another postdoc job but they put you 357 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:37,480 back at the lowest end of the grade so you actually end up worse off and so in 358 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:42,570 the long term if you stop work, you never make up that difference, whereas maybe if 359 00:24:42,570 --> 00:24:47,360 you don't spend quite as long time working part time, or if you've got enlightened 360 00:24:47,390 --> 00:24:54,790 management, then they can support you to grow your career proportionally 361 00:24:55,180 --> 00:24:59,200 and that's what I'm realising now has not been able to happen for me. 362 00:25:00,540 --> 00:25:02,730 So there's another thing, menopause. 363 00:25:03,010 --> 00:25:05,510 We talk about the change going through the change. 364 00:25:07,020 --> 00:25:09,640 But menopause is now. 365 00:25:09,855 --> 00:25:16,845 talked about more in the media and the idea of the perimenopause, rather than 366 00:25:16,845 --> 00:25:21,055 just the change, which makes it sound like a snap because it's not like that. 367 00:25:21,055 --> 00:25:26,835 Perimenopause is not instant, it lasts for about 10 years. 368 00:25:27,085 --> 00:25:31,805 It sneaks up on you, so you don't realise it started until the symptoms 369 00:25:31,805 --> 00:25:35,245 become noticeable that you're like, Oh no, I've actually got a problem. 370 00:25:35,645 --> 00:25:39,215 Yeah and it starts sometime in the mid forties, mid to late forties. 371 00:25:39,915 --> 00:25:47,505 I'm 49 now, that's a big number, my symptoms of perimenopause have included 372 00:25:47,545 --> 00:25:52,865 crippling anxiety, disturbed sleep, overheating at night, and they're all 373 00:25:52,865 --> 00:25:57,784 linked, it's like a vicious circle, so women get grumpy, they get angry, 374 00:25:57,794 --> 00:26:03,175 they find things hard, and it creeps up on you until you realise, okay, 375 00:26:03,175 --> 00:26:06,495 I've had got a problem, but things have already become hard before that. 376 00:26:07,285 --> 00:26:14,735 Ironically, because of the timescales of academia, the perimenopause, late 377 00:26:14,735 --> 00:26:17,185 forties, is likely to happen just ah! 378 00:26:17,420 --> 00:26:21,710 About the time you're trying to get your career back on track after having 379 00:26:21,710 --> 00:26:28,230 dealt with the I'm having a kid late in my life and when you're feeling 380 00:26:28,290 --> 00:26:35,590 just rubbish and tired, the last thing you can really find the energy to 381 00:26:35,590 --> 00:26:42,930 do is to leap into a campaign for I need to do that and that and this and 382 00:26:42,930 --> 00:26:44,390 you must give me that opportunity. 383 00:26:45,460 --> 00:26:48,880 I'm just tired and so it's not great for the career. 384 00:26:49,599 --> 00:26:55,905 There's another point where whilst people can stay in academia, they 385 00:26:55,905 --> 00:27:00,745 don't make the leap to the greatness, which is the professorial level, 386 00:27:00,755 --> 00:27:03,775 which, you know, it's metrics, it's numbers, we like numbers, we're physical 387 00:27:03,775 --> 00:27:06,845 scientists, and we can count very well. 388 00:27:07,265 --> 00:27:08,334 Why are the numbers low? 389 00:27:08,374 --> 00:27:10,405 Well, the reasons are manifold. 390 00:27:10,845 --> 00:27:14,014 We're still there, women, but we're just not quite there. 391 00:27:14,015 --> 00:27:19,260 Yeah, it sounds like you kind of have, not problem after problem, but once 392 00:27:19,260 --> 00:27:23,360 you kind of get over the having a baby and then the childcare and then you 393 00:27:23,419 --> 00:27:26,360 get the perimenopause and then the menopause and then it just kind of, 394 00:27:27,100 --> 00:27:28,820 you don't get a break, do you, from... 395 00:27:29,115 --> 00:27:31,245 It all sounds really bad, doesn't it? 396 00:27:31,245 --> 00:27:32,025 It does! 397 00:27:32,075 --> 00:27:33,835 I've got two awesome kids. 398 00:27:33,895 --> 00:27:36,465 They can be grumpy, but they can be amazing. 399 00:27:36,855 --> 00:27:40,585 I work in a lovely department with amazing colleagues, I love my 400 00:27:40,585 --> 00:27:44,664 students, I could step out and do a different job, but I don't want 401 00:27:44,675 --> 00:27:47,765 to because my job is so rewarding. 402 00:27:48,365 --> 00:27:52,280 So there are benefits, like financially, I'm not the professor 403 00:27:52,350 --> 00:27:54,800 yet, but there are good bits. 404 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,420 Yeah, it's good to hear that there are the positives as well, because 405 00:27:59,420 --> 00:28:02,130 it can sound like, quite a lot. 406 00:28:02,130 --> 00:28:03,130 You're focusing on the bad bits. 407 00:28:03,230 --> 00:28:04,720 Yeah, there are good bits. 408 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,410 Thank you Jenny for making that point. 409 00:28:07,590 --> 00:28:11,460 With both of these situations in mind, regarding for trying a baby 410 00:28:11,499 --> 00:28:15,169 and then the menopause, are there any reasonable adjustments that you 411 00:28:15,169 --> 00:28:19,340 would like to see more in academia or just in the workplace generally? 412 00:28:19,540 --> 00:28:20,290 Adjustments. 413 00:28:20,290 --> 00:28:24,010 That sounds like evolution slowly, natural selection. 414 00:28:24,010 --> 00:28:27,369 I don't want evolution, I want revolution. 415 00:28:28,020 --> 00:28:33,189 For a truly equitable workplace in academia, we need to accommodate 416 00:28:33,755 --> 00:28:37,105 every person, regardless, at all stages of their life. 417 00:28:37,885 --> 00:28:42,910 There are lots of good sounding words floating about, reasonable adjustments 418 00:28:43,730 --> 00:28:47,060 and yet those at the top remain the same. 419 00:28:47,290 --> 00:28:54,270 My EDI campaigning friend calls the male pale and stale, which I love. 420 00:28:54,355 --> 00:28:55,005 So good. 421 00:28:55,415 --> 00:28:57,115 I enjoy that! 422 00:28:57,130 --> 00:29:04,500 Yes, so I want a universal design for academia that includes security in 423 00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:09,845 employment or in career track from the start, associated with freedom of 424 00:29:09,845 --> 00:29:17,585 movement, more jobs available in more institutions, so you're not waiting 425 00:29:17,595 --> 00:29:25,545 for the one job in the one place, or so that families can move easier and 426 00:29:25,565 --> 00:29:31,440 that families don't have to be, man and woman and two kids, families come 427 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:36,490 in all shapes and sizes these days, but a universal design that allows for 428 00:29:37,210 --> 00:29:39,930 that flexibility will benefit everyone. 429 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:47,240 We need visible diversity and visible diverse success, because then the people 430 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:52,140 in your positions will go, Oh yeah, so and so's, I'll just chat to them 431 00:29:52,140 --> 00:29:56,250 about it, or you don't even think about what the choices are because you've 432 00:29:56,250 --> 00:29:58,540 got the examples of them and okay. 433 00:29:59,130 --> 00:30:02,720 You're not breaking the barriers, you're just doing something that's normal. 434 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,770 We need good mentoring and good encouragement for all. 435 00:30:07,810 --> 00:30:08,730 I love my students. 436 00:30:08,830 --> 00:30:13,600 I'm a facilitative teacher, my students are awesome and I try to enable 437 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:19,040 their awesomeness and that works for colleagues as well and that should be 438 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:23,630 what line management does, everyone should be encouraged and challenged 439 00:30:23,890 --> 00:30:26,800 to not step off the treadmill. 440 00:30:27,230 --> 00:30:29,010 How can you actually get this to work? 441 00:30:29,500 --> 00:30:34,490 So we need supportive careers and fair allocation of the time 442 00:30:34,500 --> 00:30:36,570 consuming administrative roles. 443 00:30:36,610 --> 00:30:40,590 When you work part time, you find that the things that everyone 444 00:30:40,590 --> 00:30:42,495 does take up more of your time. 445 00:30:42,495 --> 00:30:45,665 So if you have to sit in a meeting and listen to your head of department 446 00:30:45,675 --> 00:30:50,995 talk, I don't get to do 0.6 of that, I still have to do the whole lot, but 447 00:30:50,995 --> 00:30:53,375 that's a bigger chunk of my working day. 448 00:30:53,805 --> 00:31:00,355 Allocation needs to be aware of that and we need investment in and reward 449 00:31:00,355 --> 00:31:06,275 for quality and potential and not just the quality that's built on an 450 00:31:06,275 --> 00:31:11,660 amazing track record and I know what to write because I'm awesome and I've got 451 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:16,630 ninety four research grants and five hundred papers to my name, so I talk 452 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,060 the talk, but the quality is actually that's a really good idea, it's not 453 00:31:20,070 --> 00:31:24,320 expressed very well and maybe we need to interrogate it a bit more, but that's 454 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:29,840 an initiative worth funding, even though the words using to describe show a 455 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,340 lack of expertise in the writing of it. 456 00:31:33,420 --> 00:31:35,550 So, yeah, universal design. 457 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:40,665 I'm a woman, part time, that should be irrelevant, I'm a white woman part time, 458 00:31:41,055 --> 00:31:46,015 I could be a full time black man and we should be able to do the same things. 459 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:51,590 I totally agree with having the visible diversity because even as a student 460 00:31:51,590 --> 00:31:55,500 we kind of think, oh that we have a female lecturer and we shouldn't be 461 00:31:55,500 --> 00:31:59,120 feeling like that, it shouldn't be an excitement because it's so rare. 462 00:31:59,430 --> 00:32:03,250 I think, as you said, it does need a revolution, I am very much 463 00:32:03,340 --> 00:32:05,450 in favour of this revolution. 464 00:32:05,710 --> 00:32:11,260 I think what is trying hard is that like, it almost feels like it's a kind 465 00:32:11,260 --> 00:32:15,700 of etching away process at the moment and it's always the people that have 466 00:32:15,700 --> 00:32:20,520 had, I guess, the unequal experience that are etching away and putting in 467 00:32:20,570 --> 00:32:25,295 extra effort and extra work to try and make it happen because they want to see 468 00:32:25,295 --> 00:32:28,455 something that's comfortable for them, and they know that will help other people. 469 00:32:28,815 --> 00:32:33,035 But at the same time, we need people that maybe who haven't had this experience 470 00:32:33,295 --> 00:32:36,295 to try and think outside the box, think about your friends, your family, 471 00:32:36,305 --> 00:32:40,935 your colleagues, who might be having this experience and really try to put 472 00:32:40,945 --> 00:32:44,305 that into when you make decisions as well, are you thinking about everyone? 473 00:32:44,735 --> 00:32:48,475 And hopefully that will mean that, you know, this takes the self advocacy out 474 00:32:48,475 --> 00:32:53,595 of those people that are already having to do a lot more work in order to try 475 00:32:53,595 --> 00:32:55,195 and make it comfortable for themselves. 476 00:32:55,555 --> 00:33:00,545 But it also means that you will start making decisions that will be even more 477 00:33:00,545 --> 00:33:04,435 rewarding to your colleagues, they will respect you and they will feel like you're 478 00:33:04,435 --> 00:33:08,625 in a very comfortable institution where change can happen, which I think is really 479 00:33:08,625 --> 00:33:12,895 nice and I do agree that this, revolution, it will come, it's definitely got to come, 480 00:33:13,185 --> 00:33:18,075 because, I want to carry on with this job, so it's gonna happen at some point. 481 00:33:18,855 --> 00:33:23,195 But yeah, just to take it back to a slightly earlier point, when you 482 00:33:23,195 --> 00:33:28,665 mentioned that you were trying for a family, I just wanted to ask how was your 483 00:33:28,665 --> 00:33:31,105 menstrual health impacted in this time? 484 00:33:31,535 --> 00:33:34,775 Because I think that's something that, yeah, we don't also don't 485 00:33:34,775 --> 00:33:37,825 really know much about and be great to hear from you on that. 486 00:33:38,335 --> 00:33:42,155 So I got married, came off the pill, baby didn't come instantly. 487 00:33:42,655 --> 00:33:45,325 There's issues with that, but I came off the pill, right? 488 00:33:45,695 --> 00:33:48,845 So pill birth control, it's what it's there for, we use it 489 00:33:48,855 --> 00:33:52,935 for many things, birth control is only one aspect of the pill. 490 00:33:53,375 --> 00:33:56,660 So, You come off the pill, and then you're hit with hormones! 491 00:33:57,590 --> 00:33:57,710 Hello! 492 00:33:59,410 --> 00:33:59,530 Periods! 493 00:34:01,250 --> 00:34:04,930 All of the rubbish things that the pill's sort of evened out, or the 494 00:34:04,940 --> 00:34:08,020 birth controller's evened out, and you haven't noticed whilst you've 495 00:34:08,020 --> 00:34:12,635 been on it and they come back in full force, so that's a thing. 496 00:34:13,125 --> 00:34:16,655 Coming off the pill does not mean instant pregnancy. 497 00:34:17,185 --> 00:34:20,085 You hear the stories, Oh, I came off the pill and then I was pregnant. 498 00:34:20,145 --> 00:34:23,455 You read in romance novel, Oh, I was on the pill and I'm 499 00:34:23,465 --> 00:34:24,695 pregnant, how did that happen? 500 00:34:24,875 --> 00:34:26,655 So, you know, that's not how it happened for me. 501 00:34:27,165 --> 00:34:32,125 So after six months, I went to my doctor who looked slightly embarrassed and said, 502 00:34:32,125 --> 00:34:38,410 well, amenorrhea is normal for periods of six months and maybe a year after 503 00:34:38,430 --> 00:34:42,750 you come off the pill and amenorrhea means no periods, so that's normal 504 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,780 and then when my periods restarted, I didn't get instantly pregnant. 505 00:34:47,790 --> 00:34:53,000 So I'm quite old at that point and maybe I wouldn't have got instantly pregnant at 506 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,650 19 coming off the pill, but I wasn't 19. 507 00:34:55,680 --> 00:35:01,720 I was older than that and there's a monthly anticipation, am I pregnant? 508 00:35:02,100 --> 00:35:06,750 Disappointment, oh no, I'm not, cycle and emotionally, that 509 00:35:06,750 --> 00:35:11,450 really takes its toll and you're thinking each month, am I pregnant? 510 00:35:11,940 --> 00:35:12,330 No, I'm not. 511 00:35:12,330 --> 00:35:12,790 Am I pregnant? 512 00:35:13,140 --> 00:35:17,680 No, I'm not and I'm getting older, and this has gone on for some months now 513 00:35:17,710 --> 00:35:23,650 and I'm getting older and you're getting more anxious, and anxiety isn't good 514 00:35:23,650 --> 00:35:27,025 for pregnancy either, so it's not great. 515 00:35:27,815 --> 00:35:33,635 That was a consequence of me waiting and the decisions, well, it's just how 516 00:35:33,635 --> 00:35:40,075 it happened, but here we go and another thing they don't tell you after you've 517 00:35:40,075 --> 00:35:44,145 had your baby and periods come back, one of the things they don't tell you 518 00:35:44,505 --> 00:35:46,965 is that they come back with a vengeance. 519 00:35:47,775 --> 00:35:53,070 They come back and they're much heavier and more painful and you can kind of 520 00:35:53,070 --> 00:35:58,620 work that out biologically, it kind of makes sense and so I wanted baby number 521 00:35:58,620 --> 00:36:05,260 two, so I didn't go back on the pill and so I was putting up with this and the 522 00:36:05,260 --> 00:36:08,320 worst is a full day in the teaching lab. 523 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,760 So we do full days, three and a half hour with an hour for lunch, another 524 00:36:11,810 --> 00:36:18,025 three and a half hour and there's the discomfort, just generally not 525 00:36:18,025 --> 00:36:22,135 feeling great, the lower back ache when you're on your feet, it's bad enough 526 00:36:22,135 --> 00:36:25,275 anyway, oh lab stools are amazing. 527 00:36:25,865 --> 00:36:30,385 And then there's the dashing to the loo to change the protection 528 00:36:30,505 --> 00:36:32,205 and hoping that it hasn't leaked. 529 00:36:34,145 --> 00:36:36,785 Spare clothes at work are a must. 530 00:36:37,885 --> 00:36:39,725 So yes, that's one of the things I don't tell you. 531 00:36:39,745 --> 00:36:39,905 Surprise! 532 00:36:41,775 --> 00:36:42,005 Yay! 533 00:36:43,485 --> 00:36:45,555 Well, you know, women, we just get on with it, don't we? 534 00:36:45,585 --> 00:36:49,455 Thank you for sharing these points because, you know, it's really good 535 00:36:49,525 --> 00:36:54,375 for us to hear and you just don't get taught these things and we really should 536 00:36:54,425 --> 00:36:58,615 because it really impacts your life and a lot of people are going to go 537 00:36:58,615 --> 00:37:02,405 through this and people listening to this podcast hopefully will know that 538 00:37:02,405 --> 00:37:06,800 if things like this happen to them, it's normal and we spoke about the 539 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:12,020 experience of going on the pill and the trial period and how troubles come with 540 00:37:12,510 --> 00:37:14,000 trying to find the right pill for you. 541 00:37:14,210 --> 00:37:19,110 But we never even considered coming off and you know, the fact that it can 542 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:23,180 take quite a long time, usually around three months for your symptoms and 543 00:37:23,180 --> 00:37:27,715 your menstrual cycle to come back and you just don't even think about that, 544 00:37:27,795 --> 00:37:32,615 I guess, sometimes and a lot of us, go on the pill when we're teenagers and 545 00:37:32,615 --> 00:37:36,285 then go on it for a prolonged period of time and then when you come off the 546 00:37:36,285 --> 00:37:38,555 pill, your body's completely changed. 547 00:37:38,555 --> 00:37:41,965 It's not the same as when you were 18 and you went on the pill. 548 00:37:42,235 --> 00:37:45,710 So you can't even predict what's going to happen when you come off. 549 00:37:45,720 --> 00:37:51,620 So I think, yeah, it's very hard to adjust to all of these changes and it's really 550 00:37:51,620 --> 00:37:55,950 good to hear the experience of someone who has been through the opposite end of the 551 00:37:55,950 --> 00:37:58,170 pill experience to what we spoke about. 552 00:37:58,235 --> 00:38:02,075 I think, yeah, as Manami said, it's something that, where I was like, oh 553 00:38:02,075 --> 00:38:05,795 my gosh, we finally found a pill that works for us and then when you think, 554 00:38:05,805 --> 00:38:08,735 oh, I actually might need to come off this, it might be that because you want 555 00:38:08,745 --> 00:38:12,555 to start having a baby or the pill that did work is actually not working at all 556 00:38:12,555 --> 00:38:16,955 for you anymore and then you're like, oh, yeah, because I actually came off 557 00:38:16,955 --> 00:38:21,085 the pill, and then it took, I think, over a year for my cycle to get back to 558 00:38:21,085 --> 00:38:25,405 normal and like, luckily for me, that was just because I came off it because 559 00:38:25,405 --> 00:38:27,085 of some mental health considerations. 560 00:38:27,085 --> 00:38:33,154 But I was like, this is going crazy and when I went on the pill, I was 16, 17. 561 00:38:33,155 --> 00:38:36,530 So I was just there like, did I even have normal periods before? 562 00:38:36,530 --> 00:38:37,800 Like, am I just weird? 563 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:38,630 Like, what's going on? 564 00:38:38,630 --> 00:38:39,900 And then it did start to settle down. 565 00:38:39,900 --> 00:38:42,450 So I think that, yeah, this opposite consideration of coming 566 00:38:42,450 --> 00:38:47,050 off is great to hear and yeah, good to know as well for the future. 567 00:38:47,620 --> 00:38:51,959 Finally, I'd just like to ask you, Jenny, if you've got any advice for those of 568 00:38:51,959 --> 00:38:56,359 us thinking about going into teaching at universities and perhaps how we 569 00:38:56,359 --> 00:39:00,179 can tackle this with our reproductive health and particularly with some of the 570 00:39:00,179 --> 00:39:01,799 issues that you'd shared with us today. 571 00:39:01,985 --> 00:39:04,015 My advice is to work the system. 572 00:39:04,265 --> 00:39:07,925 The system's different, I could tell you how it has been for me and at 573 00:39:08,125 --> 00:39:11,845 Sheffield it will be different now to when it was when I had my kids. 574 00:39:12,195 --> 00:39:20,045 But know what the system is and find out how you can work it to your advantage. 575 00:39:20,425 --> 00:39:21,985 What is the funding? 576 00:39:22,390 --> 00:39:25,180 Ask for it, what are the options? 577 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,050 If something happens unexpectedly, great! 578 00:39:30,020 --> 00:39:30,970 How can you deal with it? 579 00:39:31,380 --> 00:39:32,750 So what systems are in place? 580 00:39:32,780 --> 00:39:35,360 And if they're not in place, well, they probably should be. 581 00:39:35,870 --> 00:39:38,190 So systemically, who can help you do it? 582 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,170 You don't have to necessarily do it for yourself. 583 00:39:40,910 --> 00:39:43,650 Another thing is you need good support networks. 584 00:39:44,250 --> 00:39:51,250 So if you're having children, you need the child care support, you need the support 585 00:39:51,300 --> 00:39:56,415 of the other family members, maybe you have a dog, who's going to walk the dog? 586 00:39:56,515 --> 00:40:00,065 You know, you need to know what your support networks are and 587 00:40:00,075 --> 00:40:04,975 you need more support networks, the more your life diversifies. 588 00:40:04,985 --> 00:40:10,635 So, as a parent, you need parent support networks, dads need dad networks, just 589 00:40:10,635 --> 00:40:17,230 like mums need mums networks and you need them outside of your work as well 590 00:40:17,230 --> 00:40:23,600 as within your work and you need people who can just drop everything and collect 591 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:29,630 your child from wherever it is because the train's been cancelled or the road is 592 00:40:29,630 --> 00:40:33,340 flooded or something else has happened. 593 00:40:33,710 --> 00:40:35,800 So the support networks are really important. 594 00:40:36,170 --> 00:40:40,280 In terms of academia, you look around and you find women tend to collaborate in 595 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:46,005 research and my feeling is that because women stereotypically, work well with 596 00:40:46,045 --> 00:40:52,945 other people, if you collaborate and you take a break, six weeks for an American 597 00:40:52,945 --> 00:40:58,205 style maternity and then you're back in, or minimum maternity, the research 598 00:40:58,205 --> 00:41:01,205 doesn't stop if you're collaborating, because your collaborators are sort of 599 00:41:01,235 --> 00:41:02,975 continuing it and you can step back in. 600 00:41:03,225 --> 00:41:07,885 So collaboration, you get good research out of it, like strategically, 601 00:41:08,770 --> 00:41:13,950 it's good because then you step in and you don't have to start your 602 00:41:13,950 --> 00:41:15,540 research career all over again. 603 00:41:16,030 --> 00:41:17,620 So I recommend collaboration. 604 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:24,130 Find your allies and identify those people who are not allies and beware 605 00:41:24,130 --> 00:41:29,480 of women because those people who've struggled may well think, well, I 606 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:33,080 did it, so buck up, get on with it. 607 00:41:33,090 --> 00:41:38,275 So there will be people who are maybe not allies and that may change, that 608 00:41:38,275 --> 00:41:41,505 person may change from being a not ally to being an ally, just through a 609 00:41:41,505 --> 00:41:46,165 conversation and then I've written on my notes, plan, plan, plan and I thought 610 00:41:46,175 --> 00:41:49,755 about this after I wrote my notes and I was like, no, don't plan, just go with it. 611 00:41:49,765 --> 00:41:54,955 If you plan, you end up at 33 in hospital with a miscarriage going, 612 00:41:54,955 --> 00:41:58,875 how did I get to 33 in hospital with a miscarriage, what's going on here? 613 00:41:59,940 --> 00:42:05,640 Do what works at the time and I would like everyone to be happy 614 00:42:06,030 --> 00:42:07,410 in the choice that they've made. 615 00:42:07,810 --> 00:42:11,250 There is no one right way of doing things, except that there are many 616 00:42:11,250 --> 00:42:14,690 right ways of doing or many good ways of doing things and just go with it. 617 00:42:14,690 --> 00:42:19,410 We put loads of pressure on people to make the right choices, so that's my advice. 618 00:42:19,740 --> 00:42:23,270 Thank you so much, Jenny, for sharing your experience and talking to us 619 00:42:23,270 --> 00:42:25,160 about quite personal experiences. 620 00:42:25,420 --> 00:42:29,880 We've learned so much and it was such a pleasure to have you and have a lovely 621 00:42:29,889 --> 00:42:33,990 chat with you and I think the real take home message is that reproductive 622 00:42:33,990 --> 00:42:38,735 health is impacting us in all different times in our lives and if we talk 623 00:42:38,745 --> 00:42:42,975 about it more, then hopefully we can better understand menstruation and the 624 00:42:42,975 --> 00:42:47,544 reproductive health leading to a world where those with periods and menstruation 625 00:42:47,585 --> 00:42:50,275 can not be held back in their careers. 626 00:42:50,604 --> 00:42:55,165 If you would like to find out more about the Breaking the Barriers Report by the 627 00:42:55,165 --> 00:42:59,965 Royal Society of Chemistry, then it is on their website and if you would like 628 00:42:59,965 --> 00:43:06,715 to learn more about Periodically, please visit our social media @periodically_ox. 629 00:43:06,735 --> 00:43:10,205 Again, we'd like to thank the RSC Inclusion and Diversity Fund, the 630 00:43:10,285 --> 00:43:13,609 University of Oxford Chemistry Department, and the EPSRC funded 631 00:43:13,609 --> 00:43:17,084 OxICFM CDT for supporting the podcast.