Pete Wright: I'm Pete Wright.
Andy Nelson: And I'm Andy Nelson.
Pete Wright: Welcome to the next reel. When the movie ends
Andy Nelson: Our conversation begins.
Pete Wright: Anguish is over. Yes, John. You're my best boy and the best surgeon in town.
Trailer: Missus Pressman had high hopes for her son, John.
John is your best boy, isn't your mother?
Trailer: Yes, John. You're my best boy and the best surgeon in town.
Trailer: But the world conspired against him.
Trailer: I told you to take these things out of my eyes.
Trailer: Get upset. I I
Trailer: Take them out. Do you hear me? Do you hear me? Do you
Trailer: hear me? Do you hear me? Don't be sorry.
Trailer: Until John found a way to please his mother. Well,
Trailer: you did a good job, John.
Trailer: Add to his collection.
Trailer: All eyes of the city will be ours. And
Trailer: even get into the movies. Once, please. You
Trailer: have no idea what it's like to really suffer.
Trailer: Ready, Joe. Stop. No No one is going to leave here. Anguish.
Trailer: See what happens when you disobey mother?
Trailer: Anguish.
Andy Nelson: Andy, this movie. Yeah. I wow.
Pete Wright: Had you heard of this movie?
Andy Nelson: No. No. I hadn't heard of this movie. I hadn't heard of this movie.
Pete Wright: See, I I had seen the box. Like, I remember the box because I loved Poltergeist as a kid. And so when I would go to Blockbuster, I always remember Zelda Rubinstein was just such a person. Like, she she carried such interesting weight as just a performer from Poltergeist that I was always drawn to anything that she was in. Even though I never watched this, I just always remember looking at the box.
And that's why I picked it for this series because I saw the VHS cover Anguish, and it just had a picture of Zelda Rubenstein with kind of like the spirals over and everything. I'm like, oh, I should check that one out. It looks interesting. I never did, and I kind
Andy Nelson: of regret it. Well, yeah. I mean, look at all the years you could have spent just really in a state having seen this movie much younger.
Pete Wright: Oh, yes. No kidding. No kidding.
Andy Nelson: We should we should start with our our usual, disclaimer.
Pete Wright: Yes. This series that, we're doing is the spoiled rotten twist ending series, which is a series about movies that have twists. And if you know what they are, if you've seen it already, can you return to it, or is the film essentially spoiled for you because the twists don't necessarily hold up? And so this is gonna be a a film that instantly will be spoiled as soon as we start talking about it in greater detail. So if you want to watch this movie and not be spoiled, and we definitely recommend check out this movie.
If you like horror movies, if you like films that are doing interesting things, definitely go check out this movie and do it before you tune into the podcast, because we are gonna spoil it for you.
Andy Nelson: And if you don't have any eye anxieties, no eyeball anxieties, that's this movie will be triggering.
Pete Wright: Yes. That is true. That is true. Alright. So here we are.
Andy Nelson: Okay. I gotta tell you. For the first, like, five minutes of this movie, I kinda hated it. And I thought I thought you were setting me up. I thought that's what was happening.
Pete Wright: Well, I will say there are moments in the film where you're you are wondering. It's like, okay. This feels like a low budget eighties horror movie, and I just don't know how it's going to turn into something, you know, I mean, it could be entertaining, but is it ever gonna be good? Because, I mean, it's a story of this schlubby guy, Michael Lerner, who The great Michael Lerner. Oh, he's great.
I always think of him from, Barton Fink. Yep. But, yeah, that's, he is John Pressman, and his mom is Zelda Rubenstein, Alice, the mother. And he works at, like an eye doctor's clinic and also seems to have an obsession with eyes. And basically, the story the long and the short of it is, he isn't getting the the his dues according to his mother.
And so she uses, her weird abilities to hypnotize him to go out and cut out the eyes of people who are are problems in his life, all starting with this patient. And that's kind of the the essentially, the setup of the story.
Andy Nelson: It feels very much like a b movie. It feels like I mean, it's just full of the the tropes of kind of overacting through, you know, grand gestures and weird angles and shots. And it's just it's put together in a way that just feels feels cheap.
Trailer: Yeah. But but kind of in
Andy Nelson: a good way. Now Yeah. This as he's murdering people, all of this is revealed to be a movie that is being watched by an audience in Los Angeles Right. Where another moviegoer is also killing people in the movie theater.
Pete Wright: Right. Well and you didn't say you didn't mention that in the context of the story, John actually, as he he goes on his killing rampage, he goes into a movie theater.
Andy Nelson: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Pete Wright: Which is kind of a critical part, because we don't get this reveal until he's gone into a movie theater, and this audience is watching the 1960, dinosaur film, The Lost World.
Trailer: Yep.
Pete Wright: And that's when we suddenly cut to the fact that, oh, we're now watching an audience watch this movie about John as he's now in gone into a movie theater.
Andy Nelson: Who is watching the movie and killing people. So now we have two killers. One in the movie, one in this fictional theatre or in this theater in Los Angeles, both jumping around killing people. And there is that second act where it cuts back and forth. And I don't know about you, but I was just kinda not sure.
Are we in the same movie theater? Like, are there two killers in this movie theater? Because the movie theaters look very, very similar. It's only when you get these cuts that show the screen that you realize something is amiss. That slow burn second act is some of the best straight up filmmaking that I have I can remember.
Like, it is so taught and fun. I was absolutely edge of my seat in this movie by then.
Pete Wright: Yeah. No. And it was it was so fascinating to watch as all of this was happening because you don't realize that this person in the theater in this in this second story that we're getting is actually gonna be killing people. Like No. We're getting a sense from you know, we're we're largely in this theater following Patty, who is really kind of panicking.
She's having a hard time watching this horror movie. Her friend, Linda, doesn't seem to care. She's like, it's just a movie. It's fun. I wanna stay.
And and Patty's like, I I just need to leave. And she's noticing like, she's one of those scared people. So she's looking around the audio audience, and she sees this guy across the way who seems to be fidgeting and looking at his watch a lot. She sees all of these other people, and so we're getting this sense that she is having this very hard time and may not make it through this film. We're also seeing, especially as we're kind of going through the process of of shifting back and forth, Zelda Rubenstein goes through a prolonged hypnosis with her son, John, to put him into deep sleep spirals.
Watch the spirals. You know, she's going through the process. And we're seeing the audience watching this film actually, like, some of them are seeming like they're becoming hypnotized. Like, are their eyelids are drooping. One guy breaks out into heavy sweats.
And and Patty also seems to be having a very hard time, and that's when she she finally steps out and, goes to the bathroom, but then panics because she thinks that this guy has followed her and went into the ladies room and is and has her friend go out. And that kind of sets up the story for this killer in the theater. And we get a sense of what's going on with him, which I found fascinating because we don't know why would this guy be doing anything. But then it's when he comes out and he's talking to the the woman at the concessions, and she sees him. It's like, oh, you sure love this movie.
How many times has it been now? This is a guy who loves coming and watching this movie. He's obsessed with it. Why? Well, then that's when he pulls out a gun and starts killing all these people.
Andy Nelson: And and, yeah, we do get that that the movie impacts people in different ways in this movie. That setup is really good. This guy was, like, weird to read that he's also been hypnotized by Zelda Rubenstein in the movie. And that that payoff is really good. It's really good.
Like, it just works for me. For some I mean, I was just I was hypnotized by this movie.
Pete Wright: Well, and because he's talking about his mother. Right? Right. And that's that's what was so interesting is like, does this guy actually have mommy issues, Or has he been somehow brainwashed by watching this movie so many times that, yeah, the mother character or the mommy as it's called in the movie that they're actually watching. We see the movie poster and it's the mommy.
Has she, in the in the context of just doing this in the film, hypnotized him into actually believing that he is in somehow, in some capacity, also John?
Andy Nelson: Right. The first movie with Lerner, John, the the hypnosis also has this, angle of mother giving son energy. Right? It's got this weird sort of Oedipal thing going on that they are connected beyond where they should be. And as she hypnotizes him, like, the voice when once they're connected, he can sort of hear her while he's killing people, and she's telling him to take their eyes, take their eyes.
And we actually get him individuating from his mother while on a murderous rampage. I mean, he's a grown man. He's an adult. He's a a assistant. He works in an ophthalmological laboratory, and he's just now individuating from his mother, by way of killing people and taking their eyes.
And it is absurd, and it it just that once we get into that part, I don't think I recognized how much I would appreciate it until I got through the fact that we're actually watching the movie in the movie, that the tonal sandwich of this movie ab is what plays. That is what works for for me, that we end up moving to the to a more contemporary setting in the second movie that addresses all of the concerns I have with the original film.
Pete Wright: Well, yeah, because the original film, as it's portrayed, as we said, like, it starts and we're like, okay, this is gonna be kind of a pretty average b movie. Like, is it gonna be able to step beyond that at all? Right? And I think that's what I found so interesting is that I mean, it's it's fascinating the way that she like, I don't it has things I don't understand. Like, somehow, she can hear this terrible or this client who does not like John as the assistant who is trying to put these contacts into her eyes.
Like, she doesn't like her or doesn't like this woman and but somehow can hear the whole conversation like through a seashell. Right?
Andy Nelson: Yes.
Pete Wright: Like like, there are things that and I'm like, is she a witch? Is like, what's going on with her? I couldn't quite figure that out. But then, yeah, as you said, there is this weird like Oedipal psychic connection between mother and son because, like, she is communicating like, come home, John. You're losing your strength.
You need to come home so I can power you or whatever she's saying. And he's, like, hit this point where he's trying to break away, and he's like, no. That, you know, and he wants to just go on to this killing spree. And so it's a it's a fascinating story. But, yeah, it's like, I don't know if that's where the story stayed.
If it ever it would have been kind of a fun, like, b movie to watch, but I don't know if it ever would have been able to step beyond that. And they certainly do by the way of telling it this way.
Andy Nelson: For sure. And I it what's weird about that, like, once they become connected, it's almost like everything John sees and hears becomes transmitted to her. Yeah. But there's a sequence when she when the the patient and the patient's husband are getting ready for a night out. Does Zelda does mommy hear her when John isn't there yet?
I just don't remember.
Pete Wright: I thought that's when she's, like, hearing the seashell. Right? Or hearing it with the seashell?
Andy Nelson: Or I thought that was when they were in the office together when she was screaming.
Pete Wright: Oh, yeah. You're right. It's it's when they're in the office. Right. So I don't think she's hearing them
Andy Nelson: Until John gets there to the house. Yeah. The whole premise is that John has the alternate contacts he has to give this woman because he gave her the wrong contacts. So he does a house call late at night. And while he's there, he kills her and takes her eyes and then kills her husband and takes his eyes too.
Pete Wright: Yeah. Yeah. Which yeah. And and the whole the whole idea of stealing eyes. It's it's an interesting setup, especially because, you know, talking about a film that already has this meta element within it, where it's a movie within a movie.
Then we're also dealing with this obsession with eyes, which, you know, is what we're all using to kind of watch films. It's the way that we absorb this type of storytelling. Right? And so already, now they're, like, taking the eyes, and and it it adds this additional element to, you know, how we're reacting because that's that's part of movie going is the eyeballs. And here they are stealing all these eyeballs from everybody and and wanting to take, you know, the eyes of the city are ours as as she's, saying at several points.
And it's the idea of, like, you know, the window, you know, the windows to the soul and all that sort of stuff. It's like, what is she what are they taking when they take the eyes? What does that represent in this meta contextual type of storytelling?
Andy Nelson: I I think that's really funny because, practically, they got to set up a b movie where these people are taking eyes. But because of the nature of this movie, they never have to resolve it. Right? Yeah. They they just get to set up a premise and move on, which is interesting because in the second movie, our killer is like, that's his entire role is a commentary on how he has become taken in a parasocial relationship with this with his the thing that he is a fan of, for lack of a better term.
Like, he keeps coming to this movie. You know, he's hypnotized by it, isn't that sort of an allegory for, you know, what, you know, glorious fandom leads for for those of us who are are super fans of something or another, that we develop this parasocial relationship to the point where we take action on its behalf as an agent of this work of art. And I think that's another fascinating sort of second layer in the second movie that I just loved. I loved.
Pete Wright: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It it plays in such an interesting way about just the nature of all of this and and how we're I mean, is it like any of these movies, like Rear Window, any of these where we're also now watching this movie of these people watching this movie. And so it it it's all, you know, self reflexive, and we're kind of, like, bringing that into ourselves.
Like, I mean, had we been watching this in a movie theater, would we also be checking over our shoulders to see, like, is this is there someone doing this, like, cutting someone's eyes out in the row behind me, you know, and keep turning to check. And or is someone, like, walking out of the theater with with a gun, and you're like, you're you're wondering about these sorts of things, and it's like, has somebody sealed the doors to the theater so we can't actually escape? Like, all of these things. And and I find that type of storytelling to be so fascinating, and and they're clearly having a fun time with the development of this story as it start especially as as you said, as we get into that second act and into the third, it starts these stories start overlaying upon each other, like, constantly, where we're jumping back and forth at a regular pace between one killer and another killer, and and a victim and another victim. And we're we're watching these stories where it actually starts feeling like it's becoming one story.
And that again makes you think about this nature of, was I watching two movies, or are these people watching one movie, but it's actually it all blends into just one thing, and that's it it's fascinating.
Andy Nelson: The third act of this movie, right, the in the second movie, the killer has a gun and comes completely unhinged, and the police storm and barricade, and and and the killer is standing in the front of the movie actively shooting people in the audience. As a Colorado guy, as a citizen, how did you feel watching that given our collective history as movie lovers, Coloradans, thinking back to Aurora. Did that hit you at all?
Pete Wright: It definitely did. Also, I mean, this film was, you know, a good, what, twenty five years before Yes. Dark Knight Rises, that incident. But, yeah, it definitely kind of comes into your head. And, you know, this isn't a film that has a strong distribution right now.
It's only available in one place, and you have to you have to sign up for a trial through Full Moon over on Amazon in order to get this at this point. That's the really the only way you can you can get it now or find an old DVD release. It's never been released in any other way. But it does make me wonder if it's kind of like, oh, Stephen King, when he was Richard Bachman, had written a story. It's called Rage that he published in '77 under Richard Bachman.
And he has, after Columbine, he pulled it, and he just said, this doesn't need to be out there. It's you know, the real world is clear proving itself to be horror enough. We don't need another story like this out there. It does make me wonder if there is this element of this film seeming a little too real as far as people not wanting to, kind of explore that, because I definitely thought about that once the shooting started. When he was like, you know, sneaking up behind people and cutting their eyes out and stuff, all I could think of was Scream two.
Yes. So I so I wasn't exactly in the in the the realistic terror of of, you know, a a terrorist in a movie theater until he started shooting at the end, and that's definitely that definitely crossed my mind.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Man, it's it's a tough watch. And to your point, again, like, twenty years earlier, but the the fact that I don't know. I guess it's a commentary on the nature of sort of humanity and our ability to see and create art out of misery, even misery that is that hasn't happened yet. It it was hard to me for me to imagine that this movie was in any way inspiration for the dark night rises, situation, but it does just it just makes me reflect on on us.
And and I should say that sequence might be triggering for others. You know, if you're if you're an Aurora kid, this this might be a tough watch.
Pete Wright: Yeah. And, you know, I that's the inevitably, there are situations like in in probably any movie that could potentially end up causing certain people to just have a harder time with it. And this, you know, there are elements in here that could trigger that. Now, I will say, partly because there's a b ish movie treatment still to the film, and we're still intercutting between the two films. So in some capacity, that takes some of the that sense of realism out of it.
It doesn't feel quite as it doesn't put you right into it quite as much. So in some capacity, maybe it's not gonna be that bad, but it is still there. It's definitely something to still be aware of as it's happening.
Andy Nelson: Well and our our principal movie characters, right, the the girls that we're watching survive. And, like, there's there's something to there's something a touch redemptive about that, that this this actually gives you characters both to watch go through trauma and live through it to the other side. Little dose of optimism.
Pete Wright: Although you do wonder how much, counseling Patty is going to have to have after all of this because, you know, one, the movie terrified her. She was already wanting to leave the theater. Her friend kind of refused to acknowledge that, which led to her own, you know, terror in the bathroom. And then Patty ends up being the one that the killer holds hostage and and brings up to the front of the screen and everything. So, yeah, it's, she's not gonna have an easy time after all of this and may never go to a movie again.
Andy Nelson: Well, and we should say Talia Paul didn't do much after this. I mean, a a couple of things. Actually worked in 02/2003, but she seems like maybe she she might have been traumatized too.
Pete Wright: Yeah. A lot of smaller roles.
Andy Nelson: She's done a lot more music. Yeah. Interesting.
Pete Wright: Yeah. It is a wild, fascinating film that, I I found to be just creative, not what I was expecting at all, and, just something that I think people should check out because it's so fascinating. You know, we didn't mention it, but I I did wanna talk about this. The way that sound and picture play sometimes with and sometimes opposite each other. One, just the sound design was fascinating.
Like, there's during the first hypnosis, you hear kind of like this the metronome ticking as she's doing this hypnosis. I like how she has like a little eyeball cut out on the metronome itself. So it's the eye that's moving back and forth. But you have the metronome ticking, and then as she's going through the process and holding his head and moving her hand down to his heart and stuff, the ticking slowly evolves to become heartbeats, which I found really fascinating. There's another part where there's a scream, and the scream starts like looping, and you just get this kind of echoing scream sound that's happening.
And then there's also, in one point, when the phone rings, the audio for the phone ring plays in reverse. And so after the ring and it is the old style where so after the phone stops and it kind of has that lingering sound, it starts with that lingering sound. It's like it is just really trippy. But the other thing I wanted to bring up, and I think it's worth talking about, is how the film starts. Because right out of the gate, we are set up with the whole concept of a movie within a movie.
Right? Like, we see on screen a message that says, during the film you are about to see, you'll be subject to subliminal messages and mild hypnosis. This will cause you no physical harm or lasting effect, but if for any reason you lose control or feel that your mind is leaving your body, leave the auditorium immediately. We see that on the screen. But while that while we're reading that, and this ends up making it very difficult to actually concentrate on all this, we're listening to a totally different message.
My name is Tom Goldman. Welcome to our movie. As you've seen in the lobby, we have provided medical service, which is free of charge on presenting your ticket stub. Oxygen masks are available. So if during the movie, the guy behind you asks for your ticket, don't give it to him.
But anyway, please don't hesitate to go into the lobby if you feel the need. I'm here to advise you also that our company does not assume any legal responsibility for anything that may happen to you during this screening. Good night, folks. Enjoy the movie. Oh, and don't forget, during the projection, don't speak to anyone you don't know.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Nice setup.
Pete Wright: Yeah. So you're hearing that. You're reading this text on the screen, and you're like, what is going on? Because it's it's this whole idea of like, is any of this serious? Am I supposed to be like, are they really trying to hypnotize me with this this movie?
Is this just part of the story? It's a fascinating way to kick things off. Did it work? It it confused me, and I was I was I had to I had to do one, and then I I rewound it. And then I played it so I could focus on the other because it's it's very difficult reading one, listening to the other, and trying to kind of get a sense as to what both of the messages were.
So it did throw me, and I was just like, okay. This is interesting. Where is this movie going? Especially because then once it starts, we're just in the house, and we're just kind of following mommy and John, and this whole thing with him going to work and eyeball fascination and all of this sort of stuff. So I'm like and so it it took me a while to, like like, I and actually, I kind of forgot that that was there until we hit that point, like, a third of the way into the film when suddenly we're in the movie theater.
Andy Nelson: That, I think, because it's it's shortly after that that we start getting the the repeated cycles of spiral on the record player. And, I gotta tell you, I watched this on the headset in the movie theater mode, and Oh, wow. Is, I I felt like alarmingly disoriented watching this movie, hearing those sounds. Like, it it was way more effective than it had any right being, honestly. Like, I it was it was moving.
Pete Wright: Well, especially, like, once we get to the I think it's the second, time she's hypnotizing him, and you get that little light bouncing across the screen. Right? And then you're cut intercutting that with the spiral and everything. It really feels like you're being hypnotized.
Andy Nelson: It really does. It it's so bizarre. It's so bizarre. This movie is stupidly effective. What do you know about Biggest Luna?
This is the only thing I've seen of Bigas Luna Luna. Bigas Bigas Luna from Barcelona.
Pete Wright: Yeah. He's a Spanish filmmaker. I have seen one other film of his, called Jamon Jamon, which is, I think, the first film with, Penelope Cruz and Javier Bardem. It is Penelope's debut film. It is not Javier's debut film.
Yeah.
Andy Nelson: He was credited, Luna, as discovering Penelope Cruz. Right? I think that's that's his one of his credits.
Pete Wright: Yeah. It is an interesting movie. Somebody is the is like an underwear magnet, essentially. Like, they they have this empire of making underwear. She gets pregnant, and I think it was there was elements of it that were a little beyond me because I think a lot of it was about Spain and kind of the political shifts within the country as far as the old Spain, the new Spain.
I didn't completely get it. But it's a it's an interesting interesting film for sure. Definitely some eroticism in it. A lot of food, and that's the only film of his I've seen. But he did that one as kind of this trilogy called the Iberian trilogy, Jomon Jomon, Huevos de Oro or Golden Balls, and La Teta y La Luna or The Tit and the Moon.
So you can get a sense that that trilogy is as he says, these films explored the darkest depths of eroticism and stereotypical Spanish machismo. So Well, he you you
Andy Nelson: know what you like, Vigas.
Pete Wright: I think he left film though for a while to become an avant garde artist, I think.
Andy Nelson: And he and his wife produced wine, ham, and organic products.
Pete Wright: Oh, interesting. Okay.
Andy Nelson: They ran a little a little farm. He, I like that on IMDb, it says his trademarks are almost all of his movies have references to food and sex often in the same scene.
Pete Wright: Yeah. Well, that's definitely Jomon Jomon. Like, that was full on with that one. Yeah. I don't think he directed a lot, because I do think he he was one of those people who worked in film for a while or worked not in film.
I think he started in, like, conceptual design or something, and then moved into film, and then moved back out of film into something else. And then I think he was drawn back into film later in his career, and then he sadly died of leukemia in 2013. But
Andy Nelson: I don't know, man. He's got 23 directing credits.
Pete Wright: Okay. Well, then he was pretty busy. It's not a bad career. No. It really isn't.
I I'm I'm curious to see more of them, especially after this one. Like, Jamon Jamon, I don't think was the one that when I watched it that said, oh, I need to go watch more from this guy. It was definitely an interesting film, but it didn't like again, I think I might need to know a little bit more about some of the what was going on in Spain at the time Yeah. Right. To watch that one maybe the others of the trilogy.
But like after watching this one, I'm really curious as to what he's doing with his cinematic storytelling.
Andy Nelson: I don't believe you need to know anything about Spain to have fun with this movie. With this one.
Pete Wright: Not a bit. Other than the fact that it was a Spanish co production, and I I don't know if they shot it in Spain, but, like, the guy who plays the killer is a Spanish actor. Mhmm. Stuff like that. So yeah.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Okay. What do you
Pete Wright: think of, Zelda as our mom? I mean, obviously, we've talked about her just as far as, like, our connection to Poltergeist and everything.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. I I she fits the tone of the first movie. When the movie started and I didn't understand what the movie was, I thought she's too much. I I want somebody a little bit more less of a caricature of of this part. Once I realized that this was actually the entire first movie was a fictional interpretation that was itself a caricature, I it made more sense.
I struggle a little bit with with Zelda. Just there there is, you know, there's something about frequencies of voices that are are harder to to listen to.
Pete Wright: Oh, that's why I love her. It's it's because her voice.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. I I I it's it triggers something. It, like, makes my jaw lock up in a funny way. And so it's like, you know, some people are affected by ASMR. You know?
Like, it's like that. Like, I I I lock up when I hear too much Zelda Rubinstein.
Pete Wright: That's funny.
Andy Nelson: She's also you know, she's perfect for for this part for crazy mom, and her stature is perfect next to Michael Lerner. Like, the whole her whole vibe is is exactly what we need from this part of the movie. I I just personally it's I find her kinda hard to listen to.
Pete Wright: Could you have seen Betty Davis in the part? It was funny because talking about, you know, hag exploitation, those types of films in our conversation last week about straight jacket, she was offered the part. But due to scheduling conflicts, I think she was doing The Whales of August at the same time. She couldn't do it, and so they went with Zelda. One hundred percent could
Andy Nelson: I see Betty Davis in this part?
Pete Wright: I can too, but because the film is what it is, and though it ends up being what it is, I can't help but think that it kind of, for me, has to be Zelda because there is something about her in those hypnosis scenes that just seemed so right. You know?
Andy Nelson: Yeah. I get that. I get that. She does seem like like there's a bit of a, a stereotypical kind of wandering gypsy vibe. Like, you met her in carriage at a fair.
Pete Wright: Yeah. Right. A little bit. Yeah. You don't wanna you don't wanna, do something wrong and have her come up to you and say, thinner.
Andy Nelson: Oh my gosh. She strokes
Pete Wright: her face.
Andy Nelson: I have to say, though, like, my the the fun at watching, Michael Lerner in this part as a younger man playing somebody so sheepish and impressionable, that is not my sense of him as a character actor. Right? He's usually so big, and in this movie, he plays so small. I thought he he was probably the most fun that I had watching in the movie.
Pete Wright: I I fluctuate between him and Patty, but I definitely think as far as it going with just sheer fun, watching Michael Lerner kind of go crazy. And honestly, the ease he has weirdly with killing people in the movie theater, become and just like he's got, like, weird knives, like, strapped to his arms, strapped to his legs, like, this guy is weirdly over prepared or perfectly prepared to go do this sort of craziness. And it's it was funny, and he was just he played just the right sort of psycho. Yeah. I agree.
I had a lot of fun with him as the lead, and he's not somebody that I feel like I've seen in a lead role, really. I mean, I'm sure he probably has some, but, like, seeing him in such a a primary position in the film, thought was really, really nice.
Andy Nelson: He's got just an extraordinary list of credits. A 84 acting credits. Yeah. I don't think I would have pegged that number that high. He's in everything.
Pete Wright: Well, but it's I think because he is, like, such a, like, a great bit part actor in so many of them, like elf, Godzilla, Barton Fink, x men days of future past, those are his IMDBs known fors. And,
Trailer: yeah,
Pete Wright: I think every one of those, it's a it's a supporting part.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. He's done a lot of fun television. He's, but again, supporting part, the fact that he shows up in entourage once when he very much could have been a regular on that show. Yeah. He's he's, he's fantastic.
I he's another one. I wouldn't even know how to build a series out of fun things to watch from Lerner.
Pete Wright: Yeah. I know. He's just he's just kind of been in everything.
Andy Nelson: He's he's great. He was Johnny on Brady Bunch for one episode for crying out loud. Brady Bunch, Andy.
Pete Wright: Yeah. He goes way back. Like, you don't think about that with him, but I mean, his career goes, like, deep into the sixties, like the early sixties. Like, he Doctor.
Andy Nelson: Kildare, nineteen sixty three, first televised credit.
Pete Wright: Yeah. So clearly, he's somebody who had just been dancing through all this. I mean, especially, like, TV, so many of them is like one episode, one episode, two episodes. Like, he was somebody who's just a that guy who is just getting cast regularly and and keeping very, very busy doing it. Yeah.
No. He's great.
Andy Nelson: So you said, the the other one that you had fun watching was Patty, Talia Paul. Yeah. What what what was so great about Patty for you?
Pete Wright: It was just it was an interesting character to have, like, once we start attaching to the audience in this second story that we're watching, like, she is a great audience surrogate because she is having a legit hard time watching this horror movie. Like, she's grossed out by these these eyeball extractions that, that John is doing, and and she's having a hard time watching. And I just as as we kind of follow her, I and maybe it's not like a fun time watching like like we are with John because he's just kind of so psycho.
Andy Nelson: That makes you sound like a sociopath.
Pete Wright: Yeah. But she's just it's it's just it was a great audience surrogate for us to connect with. And I felt like once we once we meet her, it's clear as like, oh, okay. This is this is kind of the protagonist of this whole movie that we are watching.
Andy Nelson: Right.
Pete Wright: And now I kind of have a sense as to what's going on. And for me, that played really well. Like, I instantly connected with her. I understood her struggle of trying to watch this, her fear of somebody following her into the bathroom. Like, it just played.
I I really enjoyed her as a character.
Andy Nelson: I'll tell you why you really enjoyed her as a character is because all of these kids in this movie theater, like, those were us. And there is not just a little nostalgia at looking how these preppy kids dress. Like, I used to go to movies and sit with kids dressed like this in the preppy pop collars and the white knits cable sweaters. Like, that was, there's a lot of oversized in that theater, and I was here for it. Nostalgically satisfying.
Pete Wright: No. That definitely is true. It definitely feels there's that connection.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Clara, Linda was a real jerk. I didn't care for the friend. Didn't care for her at all. She was she was not.
She was unkind.
Pete Wright: But she gets her comeuppance, and and that's what I think worked for her. It's like, she's the one who walks out into the lobby and ends up having to figure out how to navigate the fact that the killer is now there. Like, he has killed both of the employees working out front. She has to hide in the ends up hiding in the men's bathroom, and that's exactly where he then drags the bodies. Like, that played really well.
Like, her side of the story worked really well of of just being afraid of what's going on with guy. And then that husband who's trying to help Patty goes to find Linda, and he gets killed. Like, it just it it folded perfectly, you know, as the story was moving.
Andy Nelson: I think so. I mean, I totally agree. I totally agree. But that was a toxic friendship, and I think it was probably good for Linda and Patty not to be friends anymore after that.
Pete Wright: Well, did you ever have a friend abandon you in a movie theater?
Andy Nelson: Oh, my movie theater story. Oh. Oh. That's for therapy.
Pete Wright: Oh, okay. Deep dark something.
Andy Nelson: Mhmm. Gotcha. No. I have I have issues. That's for the bonus that's for the bonus segment.
There you go.
Pete Wright: As far as cinematography and music, I just kinda like the rest of the things. Like, the look of it, I thought worked the way that we kind of had a darker, more movie look, like the rainy nights and everything going on in the movie within the movie. But then the actual LA movie was just kind of sunny, and it just it played really nicely. Like, I liked the way that that played. And as you pointed out, to the point where you start wondering the actual insides of the theaters.
Are we in the same theater? Is this actually happening all in one theater? Like, that blended perfectly. Like, I liked the way that that all unfolded. And and just and the way it looked.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. For sure. And I I love the end. Right? Because we haven't like, we're I there's a third movie.
Right? Like, that's the that's the big twist.
Pete Wright: Yeah. There is.
Andy Nelson: I it was for everything in this movie is a twist. But I love the way the film wraps up and the fact that I can't I mean, it's like it's it's like a a snake eating its own tail, I feel like, once we get back to the end. I love the way they present, especially, I would just say the closing credits. Like, I love the closing credits. I love watching the closing credits as if I'm watching a theater inside watching the credits of another movie.
That was so cool.
Pete Wright: No. It it was fascinating to do to do it that way because then suddenly, we're thrust back out. And we didn't even mention there is this potential crossover at and and then we're like, was it all in Patty's mind? Where as she is, like, been as the the killer has been shot by the police, but then she's, like, in this panic state. She looks up at the screen, and John says to her, you know, he screams at her From the movie screen.
Yeah. From the movie screen. What are you looking at? I want your eyes too like all the others. And he throws his scalpel, and it comes through the screen, and and it is in her eye, and she's holding it there screaming as she now has this knife blade in her eye.
So we're suddenly getting this cross from the movie to the reality, but then it's not. When the when the paramedics are trying to help her, there is nothing there. It's all in her mind. And then we we get Michael Lerner showing up when later when she's in the hospital bed, and he's like, like the doctor said, it's all in your imagination. I really don't exist.
As then he goes to
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Take her
Pete Wright: out. Come to her to kill her, and and then she screams, and that ends the movie. Like, it's it is doing such a great job of playing that. Like, is it in her imagination? Is can your imagination kill you?
Like, it it starts playing in such a fun fun and creative way.
Andy Nelson: Yeah.
Pete Wright: I loved it.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. I did too. I really did. Like, the the one thing that I I felt like it wouldn't the twist or the the end in the hospital wouldn't have played, but I kinda wanted the scalpel to stay in her eyeball. I wanted that crossover to be real.
I wanted people to be just messed with enough and have her be redeemed in a in a stronger way, even stronger way than she was already.
Pete Wright: Yeah. Right.
Andy Nelson: Right. But, you know, what are you gonna do? But that that final twist in the hospital room wouldn't have played. I just didn't know if I needed it.
Pete Wright: Well, it is one of those things. It's like, could that work? I don't know. But as it goes, it still, I think, makes for a fun dance between reality and and the movie. Yeah.
That was a lot of fun.
Andy Nelson: I had a blast. What a dumb movie to love so much.
Pete Wright: Alright. Well, we'll be right back, but first, our credits.
Andy Nelson: The next reel is a production of True Story FM, engineering by Andy Nelson, music by Roy Spiegler, the bows, Sky Gaze, Oriole Novella, and Eli Catlin. Andy usually finds all the stats for the awards and numbers at d-numbers.com, box office mojo Com, I m b b Com, and Wikipedia.org. Find the show at truestory.fm. And if your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.
Pete Wright: You settle into your seat in the dimly lit movie theater, eagerly awaiting the start of the film. As the opening credits roll, the story begins to unfold, centering around a character named Andy who bears a striking resemblance to you. Andy is a passionate cinephile just like you. He discovered Letterboxd, an app that allows him to track his movie watching journey, connect with fellow film lovers, and explore a vast world of cinema. As Andy delves deeper into Letterboxd, you find yourself drawn into the story, recognizing your own experiences mirrored on the screen.
Andy's journey becomes intertwined with yours, blurring the lines between reality and fiction. Suddenly, the film takes an unexpected turn. Andy is now sitting in a movie theater watching a film about someone who looks just like you. This new protagonist is also exploring Letterboxd, discovering the benefits of upgrading to a pro or patron account. You are struck by the uncanny resemblance and begin to question your own reality.
Are you the one watching the film, or are you the subject of the story being watched by someone else? The film within the film continues, and the new protagonist, who shares your likeness, learns about the exclusive features and perks that comes with being a Letterboxd patron. He discovers a 20% discount for listeners of the Next Real Film podcast, which he can use for both new subscriptions and renewals. As this information is revealed, you feel a strange sense of deja vu. You recall hearing about the discount in your own life.
Outside of the movie theater, the boundaries between the film and reality become increasingly unclear. The story continues to fold in on itself with each new layer introducing another character who resembles you, another film within a film, and another revelation about Letterbox's offerings. The 20% discount from the Next Real Film podcast becomes a recurring motif appearing in each iteration of the story. By the time the film reaches its conclusion, you are left questioning the nature of your own existence. Are you the watcher or the watched?
Is your love for cinema a product of your own passion, or is it a script being written by someone else? As the credits roll and the lights come up, you realize that the answer may lie in your own actions. You decide to embrace your love for film and upgrade your Letterboxd account to patron using the 20% discount from thenextreal.com/letterbox. In doing so, you become an active participant in your own cinematic journey, blurring the lines between observer and observed. In the end, you understand that reality and fiction are inextricably linked just as your own story is tied to the countless other stories you've watched and will continue to watch on Letterboxd.
By upgrading your account and engaging with a vibrant community of film lovers, you become both the protagonist and the audience of your own cinematic odyssey. As you exit the theater, you can't help but wonder if your own story will one day be the subject of a film watched by another cinephile in another theater in an endless cycle of stories within stories, all connected by the power of letterboxed and the love of cinema.
Andy Nelson: Okay. Andy, sequels and remakes.
Pete Wright: Ah,
Andy Nelson: yes. I mean, come on.
Pete Wright: Okay. Well, here's the thing. Yes. 02/2009, Ghost House Pictures and Vertigo Entertainment licensed the the rights to a remake with Jake Wade Wall, who made the When a Stranger Calls remake writing the screenplay. Never ended up happening.
Twenty twenty one, f Javier Gutierrez, started developing one that he was gonna direct. This supposed to start in 2022, never happened. Should a remake happen of this? Well, okay.
Andy Nelson: There's a world in which I think a remake should happen because it's a great story, and more people need to be exposed to it, and nobody's exposed to it right now. We're talking about it. My hunch is, like, how many people listening to who listen to the next reel are going to be able to go out and find it, are gonna go through the trouble and find it and set up their free trial to just to watch this movie? I think that is a a small percentage. I think a lot of people are just gonna skip this episode because it's hard to find, or they're gonna watch the 02/2015 version, which isn't this movie.
And I and so I I think this movie needs more exposure.
Pete Wright: Yeah.
Andy Nelson: Or the story needs more exposure, and I don't have such a, an attachment to the cast that I don't think it can be redone and modernized in a way that maintains the spirit of the looping mechanism of it.
Pete Wright: I yeah. And I I mean, I agree. There is an element of older films getting remade and by doing so, also getting rediscovered. That does happen. This is a film that could end up getting rediscovered in just that way.
If it gets remade, like, I I don't I'm never against remakes, but I'm against a remake if they just do a crappy version of it.
Andy Nelson: Yes.
Pete Wright: And so I agree. If they can find the right way to do a remake of this and make it work, then that's fine. I just it makes me nervous because I feel like this has such an interesting tone to it, especially like the fact that we have like like, don't know, it felt like twenty minutes where we were actually just trying to be hypnotized. Yeah. Yeah.
I just wanna make sure that other filmmakers, you know, do it the same, give it the same sense.
Andy Nelson: I'll just say an a 24 remake. Maybe not a Bloomhouse remake. Bloomhouse a 24? I could see that.
Pete Wright: Or or Neon. Yeah. I mean, there's there's people companies who could do it. Sure. Yeah.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Okay. Alright. Well, I'm satisfied. How did you an award season?
Did it win anything?
Pete Wright: It it actually did. Five wins, three other nominations at the Avoriaz Fantastic Film Festival Festival. Josep m Sivet was received a special mention for his cinematography for the film. It was nominated for grand prize, but lost to the film The Hidden, another fantastic film from 1987. Love that movie.
At the Brussels International Festival of Fantasy Film or Biff, it won the Golden Raven. At Fantasporto, it was nominated for best film at, in the international fantasy film award category, but lost to George A. Romero's Monkey Shines. At the Goya Awards or the Spanish Oscars, it was nominated for best director but lost to Jose Luis Garci for course completed, and it won for best special effects. The Sant Jordi Awards, it won best film.
And at the premise, won best film. So, you know, it actually had a pretty good run largely, I think, because because Luna is a Spanish filmmaker, the majority of these were all Spanish festivals or or award shows.
Andy Nelson: The thing that's gonna disappoint me the most is if it didn't make any money. That's gonna be it. That's I'll just tell you right now. I'm gonna be sad.
Pete Wright: Yeah. You might be sad, Pete. Luna apparently had $2,000,000 to make this movie, which is about 5,360,000.00 in today's dollars. The movie opened 03/25/1987 in Spain, then premiered in The US January Eighth Nineteen Eighty Eight in a period when 1987 holiday films like Three Men and a Baby, Broadcast News, Eddie Murphy Raw, Throw Mama from the Train, and Wall Street were all still dominating the box office. I have no idea how big a theatrical release this had, but I'm just gonna say based on its box office take, I'm guessing it was tiny because all it earned was just under $228,000 or 613,000 in today's dollars.
Not great at all. This lands with an adjusted loss per finished minute of $53,000 or big box office disappointment.
Andy Nelson: Yep. I'm sad. That was it.
Pete Wright: And perhaps that also speaks to why it's had a harder time getting distribution now. Yeah. But I would love to see this in a theater. Like, would be great to see in a packed house.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Absolutely would. It it's just such a weird treat of a film, and, I had way more fun than I expected after the first fifteen minutes of it.
Pete Wright: And and after you've crossed those lines, you appreciate those first fifteen minutes that much more. Like, the whole thing ended up working really well for me. I I loved it. Me too. Alright.
Well, we'll be right back for our ratings, but first, here's the trailer for next week's movie returning to our David Fincher series. It's his 2020 film, Mank.
Trailer: Mank, it's awesome.
Trailer: Of course, it is.
Trailer: I think it's time we talk.
Trailer: What is it the writer says? Tell the story you know.
Trailer: Hello, everyone. Make yourself to home, mister Mankowitz, or shall
Trailer: I call you Herman? Please. Call me Mank. Mank. Mank.
Mank. Mank. Mank. This
Trailer: is Herman Mankowitz, but we're to call him Mank.
Trailer: Mankowitz. Herman Mankowitz, New York playwright and drama critic. Turned humble screenwriter, mister Hearst. This is a business where the buyer gets nothing for his money but a memory. What he bought still belongs to the man who sold it.
That's the real magic of the movies. Fool like black fire, religion.
Trailer: Help. Someone save me.
Trailer: All in
Trailer: one film. That's director proof. That's why I always want my corrupt.
Trailer: I hear you're hunting dangerous game.
Trailer: God bless William Randolph Hearst.
Trailer: Willing to hunt the great white whale? Just call me Ahab.
Trailer: Do come in. At this rate, you will never finish. You said ninety days. Well, sit sixty. I'm doing the best I can.
Trailer: I've put up with your suicidal drinking, your compulsive gambling, your silly platonic affairs. You owe me, Herman.
Trailer: Who do you think you are? You're nothing but a court jester. What I wanna know is what you think of it. It's a bit of a jumble. Collection of fragments that peep around in time like Mexican jumping beams.
Welcome to my mind, old sock.
Trailer: Him, I get. But what did
Trailer: Marion ever do to deserve this? It's not her. Not all characters are headliners. Some are secondary.
Trailer: You pick a fight with Willie. You are finished. Mayor can't save you. Nobody can, especially the boy genius from New York. I removed any distraction, eliminated every excuse.
Your family, your cronies, liquor. I gave you a second chance.
Trailer: You cannot capture a man's entire life in two hours. All you can hope is to leave the impression of what? Why hast? Outside his own blonde Betty Boop, you're always his favorite dinner partner. You familiar with the parable of the organ grinder's monkey?
Andy Nelson: Listen carefully. This is not just a podcast ad. This is an experience. You are no longer in control. You feel it, don't you?
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You do not want to resist. Join us. The Next Real family of film podcasts is waiting. Letterboxd, Andy. Oh, Letterboxd.
Do you know what Letterboxd is? It's where we put our stars and hearts to movies. It it's an economy of love, and, we're gonna do that right now. What are you gonna do for Letterboxd with Anguish?
Pete Wright: This, I've been weighing where I'm gonna sit with this one because I find it to be such a fascinating film. And I'm like, is this just a straight up five star film? I don't think it's quite there, but I do think it's at least four, maybe four and a half. I'm gonna, for now, say, I think I'm gonna do four stars and a heart. It could increase to five over time.
It could even increase to four and a half, four and a half, five. I don't know. But it's it's way up there. I just I really loved this movie.
Andy Nelson: I am exactly right with you. I think it's gonna start at a four star, but a four star and a heart, obviously. But this is a % a movie I'm gonna watch again. I'm going to, do my best to acquire it for my own collection because it's worth having. I I really enjoyed my experience with this movie.
And could it be a five star movie one day? One day, Indy. One day.
Pete Wright: I I think it could be. It's just one of those movies a few more times, and I think it could be there. Yeah. Well, remember, you can find me over at Letterbox at soda greek film. You can find Pete at Pete Wright, and, of course, you can find the show at the next reel.
So what did you think about Anguish? We definitely would love to hear your thoughts on this one. Hop into the Show Talk channel over at our Discord community where we will be talking about the movie this week. When the movie ends. Our conversation begins.
Linda is attacked in the elevator after she leaves Patty. Right? Yes. Did we get a reveal? Was that also John?
We didn't.
Andy Nelson: I don't think we got a reveal.
Pete Wright: Because she gets attacked. So who is attacking her? So is there a second are we watching a second movie? Yeah. The duality of the real world and her imagine and Patty's imaginary?
Andy Nelson: Well, that's what I was that was my question. Like, what is this third meta movie? Yeah. Is that it? Are we in where everybody lives together in the same universe, and now we're in a a, even more eighties slasher movie?
Pete Wright: Jesus.
Andy Nelson: And You know, we that was the last of the credits roll and the last guy to stand up, was that John? It looked a lot like Lerner to me.
Pete Wright: Well, I was wondering. I'm like, who yeah. Was that him? That's could be. That's really interesting.
Andy Nelson: Because that makes a fourth movie. Don't understand.
Pete Wright: Oh my gosh. Crazy. We also didn't mention that this movie is full of snail trauma. That was almost too much for me, more than the eyeballs watching that snail get stepped on and then the pigeon, like, picking at it. I didn't care for it.
Andy Nelson: Letterbox giveth, Andrew.
Pete Wright: Does Letterbox always doeth?
Andy Nelson: What do you what do you got? Where'd you go? High, low, middle?
Pete Wright: I am at four stars. Four stars by, Kassarine. And Kassarine has this to say, for some people, cinema paradiso shows the power of movies. Others have the fabled men's. For us sickos, we have anguish.
Andy Nelson: That's funny. It's kind of in the vibe of what I've got from aberrant ghoul. This is a five star kinda heart. This is why I don't watch horror films with normies anymore. Non horror fans can be a pain in the ass.
This also made me seriously nostalgic for the theater experience. I so wish I could see this in an actual theater with other people. It would be like one of those pictures where someone is holding the picture of them holding the picture, creating an infinite regression like a fractal. This was some grade a top shelf stuff, a swirling vortex of hypnotic visual eye violence, Hitchcockian levels of suspense, and theatrical meta horror. Zelda Rubenstein creeped me the f out when I was a kid watching Poltergeist.
I swear she was the creepiest thing in that movie aside from the clown. Am I the only one? Anyway, had I watched this as a kid, I as a kid, I probably would've had a damn near heart attack. As a middle aged horror veteran, this was just delightful. So glad I finally got around to this.
And on Halloween weekend, no less, a true meta horror masterpiece. Nice. There you go. Five stars in the heart. Meta horror masterpiece.
I love it. Yep. Yay. Me too. Yeah.
Worth it.
Pete Wright: I I agree. Definitely.
Andy Nelson: Mhmm. Thanks, Letterboxd.