Matt Abrahams: Developing good habits is helpful in communication
and our everyday lives.
When it comes to building habits, emotion and how you feel matters a lot.
My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to this Rethinks episode of Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
We're opening up the vault and resharing a really insightful conversation I
had with Stanford professor, BJ Foggg.
Listen in to learn how to create successful habits
no matter how big or small.
Today I am really looking forward to speaking with BJ Foggg.
BJ is a research associate and adjunct professor at Stanford University.
He's the founder and director of the Stanford Behavior Design Lab.
BJ also coaches companies and executives around the world.
Finally, he's the author of two great books, Persuasive
Technology and Tiny Habits.
Welcome, BJ.
BJ Fogg: Thank you for inviting me.
I've been looking forward to talking to you.
Matt Abrahams: Me too.
So let's go ahead and get started.
As many of our listeners know, I have long been fascinated by
persuasion and behavioral change.
One of the things that first drew me to your work, BJ, was that you refer
to something called the information action fallacy, and I believe it's
this fallacy that helped you create your model of behavior change.
Can you share with us what this fallacy is?
And then share the three components of your behavior change model.
BJ Fogg: For decades, maybe longer, people have assumed that if you just give
people information, it will change their behavior, and this doesn't work very well.
And so I decided to give this problem a name, this fallacy name, and that's what
it's called, information action fallacy.
And it goes like this.
If we give people information that will then change their attitude,
then with attitude change, they will then change their behavior.
Now those links between information, attitude change,
that's not a very reliable link.
And even if you can change somebody's attitude, that doesn't
necessarily change their behavior.
The second part of your question had to do with the behavior model.
So this came together from in about 2007, and it is a model
that describes all behavior types, in all cultures, and so on.
It's a universal model, and it goes like this.
A behavior happens when three things come together at the same moment.
One, there's motivation to do that behavior.
Two, there's ability to behavior.
And three, there's a prompt, something that says, do this behavior now.
And when all those things come together, the behavior happens.
And if one, any one of those things is missing, like there's no motivation
or there's no ability or no prompt, then the behavior does not happen.
Matt Abrahams: As the father of two teenage boys, I have certainly
seen the information action fallacy happen in my own life.
Give them lots of information hoping they'll change attitudes and we,
we don't see any behavior changed.
In terms of the model, the question I have is around what is a prompt?
How do you define that prompt?
I get ability, I get motivation.
What does a prompt refer to?
BJ Fogg: And that's an excellent question, Matt, because I mean, the
idea of ability and motivation being important has been around for a long time.
You can talk about skill and will, and so on, which is effectively that.
The breakthrough really was understanding there has to be a prompt.
A prompt is anything that says, do this now.
Your phone ringing is a prompt.
Somebody asking you a question is a prompt to reply.
You looking at an action item on your to-do list is a prompt.
There are a whole bunch of ways that we're, we couldn't even
be prompted internally, like sensing hunger is a prompt.
And what's important about that is we've gotta make sure for the behaviors we
want, that the prompts happen, and if we're trying to stop or reduce behaviors,
to minimize or get rid of the prompts.
So you can design for behavior change simply, in some ways,
by focusing on prompt design.
Matt Abrahams: I see.
So it's finding the prompts that can trigger the behavior you want, or removing
some of those prompts, to, to get rid of the behaviors you don't want to invoke.
BJ Fogg: Yeah.
So that's one of the three things, levers, one of the three things you
have to play around with to get a behavior happen or not to happen.
And even though it's, you can write it in three letters, B equals M A P,
it is a, I think, a profound model that can be used in so many ways.
Matt Abrahams: Can you give us an example of a way in your coaching or teaching
that can relate to, to the listeners and things that they, uh, behavior they
might want to change and how they can use those three levers to accomplish that?
BJ Fogg: Yeah, let's say that you want to read more.
I mean, we read all the time, like email, social media, but you wanna read books.
So number one, define what the behavior is.
Okay, I wanna read this particular book.
Okay, reading more is abstract.
It's not a behavior, it's like an outcome.
So pick a book you actually want to read.
So that's the motivation part.
Don't pick a book you don't want to read.
So that's motivation.
Next, ability.
How do you make it easier to read that book?
Well, you could get, uh, a paper version of the book and you could set it right
by a chair that you sit in all the time.
And then the third thing prompt, what is gonna prompt to remind me, in
this case, the Kindle sitting there.
That is, its prompt right there.
I don't have to put on a to-do list.
I don't have to put on the calendar.
I don't put up a post-it note.
In this case, the object that I need to read, the Kindle, or maybe the,
the paperback version of a book, is the thing that will prompt me.
So when you sit down, you see the book, it's like, oh, I can read now.
And just open up the book, and continue reading.
Matt Abrahams: Part of what you said that was really enlightening for me was
that notion of being very specific about the behavior you, you wanna change.
So it's not just reading in general and, and I set often lofty goals for myself.
I wanna do more exercise or, or lose weight.
But it sounds like what I should be doing is being much more specific and, and
that's, I think, gonna be really helpful.
Unlike my work on behavioral change, which is focused on how to change other people's
attitudes and behaviors, you focus on how we can change our own behavior.
The unit of change you highlight is habits.
Can you define what a habit is and share some of the maxims that you've
come up with regarding habits?
BJ Fogg: Yeah.
So the way I define habit is it's a behavior you do quite automatically
without deciding, without deliberating, without thinking very much.
We have many, many habits, and the good news here is habits are easier to
form than most people think, if you do it in the right way, and that's what
my Tiny Habits method is all about.
It just breaks it down.
It's very straightforward and people can form habits quickly and easily.
Looking at creating habits or any type of lasting change, I've distilled the keys
to habit formation, or engagement, or lasting change, down into two statements.
Number one, is help yourself do what you already want to do.
So notice in that, so you pick habits you already want to do,
and don't pick habits you don't wanna do, and help yourself do it.
And you help yourself do it by making that habit easier.
And there's different ways to make it easier.
So we're back to ability, we're back to simplicity.
And you make it, help yourself do that, by making sure there's a prompt.
So within that one statement that I call Fogg maxim number one, help
yourself do what you already want to do, it brings together motivation,
ability, and prompt in that statement.
So that's number one.
Fogg maxim number two is help yourself feel successful.
And even though that's four words, that can be challenging to do, but
it is very much worth knowing how to help, and then learning and developing
the skill, frankly it's a skill, of helping yourself feel successful.
Because it's that feeling, it's that emotion of success that wires in habits.
That's what causes a behavior that you're deliberating, or deciding, or
thinking about, turn into a behavior you do without thinking or deciding,
a behavior you do quite automatically.
It's emotions that create habits.
And that's why the feeling of success is so important.
Because when you do a new behavior and you feel successful, then you shift
it on this continuum of automaticity and it becomes more automatic.
Matt Abrahams: I think most of us think of habits as a mental effort,
so the, the role of emotion to me is really, really intriguing.
And setting us up for success so we can have that feeling of
success as a reinforcing mechanism, I think is really, really cool.
BJ Fogg: You said the exact right word.
You, by causing yourself to feel successful, you are self reinforcing.
And you can do this deliberately.
You don't have to leave that reinforcement to chance or to other people.
You can self reinforce.
And that's part of the Tiny Habits method, and we call that approach celebration.
But what you're doing is causing yourself to feel successful at the
right moment in order to self reinforce and cause that behavior to become
more likely and more automatic.
Matt Abrahams: That's great.
And, and I've got lots of, of ways to, to feel really good about some of
the habits I'm trying to, to take on.
I'm gonna reward myself with my favorite chocolate, I think.
I'd love for you to gimme specific advice on a habit i'm trying to develop better.
As many of our listeners know, I'm a big believer in paraphrasing as a way
to validate others' comments and to validate the accuracy of my understanding.
What advice can you give me to make paraphrasing a
stronger, better habit for me?
BJ Fogg: So, in other words, what you want to hear from me is how to
make paraphrasing a stronger habit?
Matt Abrahams: Touché.
Touché.
Yes.
You, you already have this habit, clearly.
BJ Fogg: Okay.
You know.
Um, first of all, get clear.
I mean, you're pretty clear on, of course you're super clear on this,
Matt, but people listening, it's like, okay, what does paraphrasing mean?
And then, when somebody says something to you, have that be the prompt or the
reminder to paraphrase it back to them.
And then, when you do that, and this is where the reinforcement comes in,
pay attention to how they respond.
And I think of many times, you will see, if you're talking face to face,
you'll see them light up or you will be able to say yes, exactly.
Embrace that as a positive result.
In other words, pay attention to their response.
That will reinforce the paraphrasing behavior.
So let me paraphrase that, of myself, again.
Number one, be clear on what it means to paraphrase.
Number two, know when you're gonna do it.
What is the prompt or cue?
It's after somebody tells you something.
And then after you paraphrase, stay tuned for that reaction from the
other person and really allow yourself to feel that positive reaction
that will help create that habit.
Matt Abrahams: That's really helpful.
And the last piece I find most helpful is I am often so focused on just
making sure I paraphrase that I don't take the time to actually celebrate
the result of that paraphrasing.
Like, wow, that person really responded positively, or they
gave me more information as a response to my paraphrasing.
So, that celebration piece, which, which clearly I can see would
be reinforcing and incent me and motivate me to, to paraphrase
even more would be really helpful.
So have that clarity of what I mean by paraphrasing.
And to me it's really distilling down what the person is saying,
use their responses, my trigger to actually initiate the paraphrase.
Then the big one for me is celebrate.
Did I, did I paraphrase that okay, Okay, how'd I do?
BJ Fogg: I thought that was great.
Matt Abrahams: I'd like to change the subject a little bit to, to
better understand from you what role specificity and repetition
play in building a new habit.
You often hear, just keep doing it over and over again, and it becomes a habit,
and I'm not quite sure you believe that.
BJ Fogg: Yeah, exactly.
Well, specificity.
Be very clear.
Going back to the reading example, don't just think, I wanna read more.
Be very clear, I wanna read this book.
And you might even define how much of the book.
I think that's less important than, than knowing what book.
And you might even define the location.
I wanna read this book while sitting in this chair.
It seems that there's a big difference to our brains between read more and after I
sit in the chair I will read this book.
And our brain can connect with the second and, uh, prompt you to do
it and you're more likely to do it.
The next topic around repetition that's long been said, that
repetition is the key to creating habits, and that's just not true.
It's emotions.
What role does repetition play?
Well, if you do a behavior and you feel strong, positive emotion as you do it,
that habit will wire in very quickly.
There's a type of habit that I call one and done.
You do it one time and the habit is wired in because the emotion was so strong.
For example, you buy a new car and you drive the car to work.
That's not gonna take very long for driving the new car to become a habit
'cause you're gonna feel so great.
Or you find a new way to drive to Stanford that's prettier and faster.
The sense of success of, it's more beautiful and faster,
it's gonna wire it in.
If the feeling of success is not that strong, then it takes more, it's like
you're inching toward the automaticity.
And so in that case.
Doing the habit, let's say daily, allowing yourself to feel successful,
then that will create a solid habit.
It won't be one and done.
So you need to, if you can't feel a strong, positive emotion,
you need to repeat the habit.
But it's not the repetition that's creating the habit,
it's the emotion that you feel.
So let's be really clear about that.
Yes, you may need to repeat the habit, and cause yourself to feel successful
multiple times for it to really wire in.
But it's, it's not a function of repetition, it's a function of emotion.
Matt Abrahams: So let me give you an example.
If I, I know exercise is good for me, but I don't like exercising or it hurts
and I'm tired and fatigued afterwards.
Forcing myself to, to continue to exercise actually is working against building it as
a habit, is what I heard you say, because I'm not having a positive experience.
It would be better for me to find a more positive way to
get that physical activity.
Is that correct?
BJ Fogg: Yes, exactly.
So there's at least a hundred ways to exercise.
Find the way that you like, find the way that causes you to feel successful.
And just because somebody runs a lot doesn't mean running is
the right exercise for you.
I know it's not the right one for me, that's for sure.
It would be very hard for me to create running as a habit, even
though I'm really great at habits.
And part of being great at creating habits is knowing which habits to pick.
So don't pick the ones that you don't like or don't want, or are painful for you.
Matt Abrahams: I got it.
I actually do enjoy running and in fact, the, the reward and
celebration I have is I get the opportunity to listen to podcasts.
So for me that's positive.
But there are many other types of exercise I do not like, and I, I like what you
just shared that can help me look for others that would be more positive.
So before we end, I like to ask the same three questions of all of my guests.
Are you willing to answer them for me?
BJ Fogg: Sure.
Let's go.
Matt Abrahams: Okay.
If you were to capture the best communication advice you have ever
received as a five to seven word presentation slide title, what
would those five to seven words be?
BJ Fogg: Remember what it's like not to know.
Matt Abrahams: Oh, so cool.
Why is that the advice you would share?
BJ Fogg: I was mentored by a brilliant man named John S. Harris, and this is back
in the day when I was a technical writer and he was teaching me to be a technical
editor and to teach technical writing.
And one of his big things was, remember what it's like not to know.
And essentially that's a way to say, have empathy, you know,
and consider the audience and remember where they're coming from.
That has guided my work ever since.
You know, I moved away from technical writing and technical
communication to other things.
But remember what it's like not to know.
Yeah.
Matt Abrahams: That is such powerful advice because quite frankly, it's the
antidote to the curse of knowledge.
We all know a lot about what we're communicating and we miss helping
people understand it because we come from the wrong place.
So that beginner's mind, I, I really appreciate.
I'll be curious to hear your answer to question two.
Who is a communicator that you admire and why?
BJ Fogg: There is a songwriter named Shawna Edwards and I've been working
with her on songs about habits for kids.
So I've been working with her for about a year, year and a half.
And she is amazing at taking concepts, like I'll write some draft lyrics
and they're just too complicated and not good for kids, and she'll just
crunch them down into a much simpler version that still has the power,
and then she can put music to 'em.
It is just amazing to see how she communicates with words in music
for the audience we're trying to reach, which is kids from 3 to 11.
Matt Abrahams: I think it's great that you're trying to help kids in that age
group, and I think it's fascinating to know that you're a lyricist.
I did not know that that was one of the many, uh, things that you have.
BJ Fogg: I see myself more as the court jester working with someone
as talented as Shawna Edwards.
What a privilege, and I've just learned so much.
But mostly just admire what she can do that I probably never will be able to do.
Matt Abrahams: It is, it is a true pleasure to be in the
presence of, of people who have mastered their craft, for sure.
Final question, question three.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
BJ Fogg: I wrote down these words before we started, but it's a great
kind of wrap up of what we talked about.
Empathy, number one.
Simplicity.
And practicality.
Matt Abrahams: Certainly, certainly.
And those ingredients can absolutely help you be very clear, concise,
and, in many ways, compelling.
And I appreciate that.
And, and I appreciate that your answer to this question was a
model of all three of those.
Well, thank you BJ.
I love your actionable, specific advice and guidance.
I encourage everybody to check out the work you do,
especially the Tiny Habits book.
You have a free five day course.
I, I am a graduate of that course.
I have found it very helpful.
Thank you for your time and thank you for your insight.
BJ Fogg: Thank you, Matt.
It's been a pleasure to talk to you.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for a special Rethinks episode of
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abraham.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
With thanks to Podium Podcast Company.
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