WEBVTT 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:02.940 Matt Abrahams: Developing good habits is helpful in communication 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:04.560 and our everyday lives. 00:00:04.950 --> 00:00:09.720 When it comes to building habits, emotion and how you feel matters a lot. 00:00:10.305 --> 00:00:13.365 My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at 00:00:13.365 --> 00:00:15.105 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:15.315 --> 00:00:20.295 Welcome to this Rethinks episode of Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:20.895 --> 00:00:24.345 We're opening up the vault and resharing a really insightful conversation I 00:00:24.345 --> 00:00:26.765 had with Stanford professor, BJ Foggg. 00:00:26.985 --> 00:00:29.445 Listen in to learn how to create successful habits 00:00:29.445 --> 00:00:31.299 no matter how big or small. 00:00:33.129 --> 00:00:36.880 Today I am really looking forward to speaking with BJ Foggg. 00:00:37.060 --> 00:00:40.930 BJ is a research associate and adjunct professor at Stanford University. 00:00:41.290 --> 00:00:44.920 He's the founder and director of the Stanford Behavior Design Lab. 00:00:45.310 --> 00:00:48.489 BJ also coaches companies and executives around the world. 00:00:48.879 --> 00:00:51.849 Finally, he's the author of two great books, Persuasive 00:00:51.849 --> 00:00:53.920 Technology and Tiny Habits. 00:00:54.690 --> 00:00:55.440 Welcome, BJ. 00:00:55.620 --> 00:00:56.699 BJ Fogg: Thank you for inviting me. 00:00:56.699 --> 00:00:58.559 I've been looking forward to talking to you. 00:00:58.860 --> 00:00:59.790 Matt Abrahams: Me too. 00:00:59.790 --> 00:01:01.260 So let's go ahead and get started. 00:01:01.650 --> 00:01:04.739 As many of our listeners know, I have long been fascinated by 00:01:04.739 --> 00:01:06.630 persuasion and behavioral change. 00:01:06.900 --> 00:01:10.380 One of the things that first drew me to your work, BJ, was that you refer 00:01:10.380 --> 00:01:15.870 to something called the information action fallacy, and I believe it's 00:01:15.870 --> 00:01:19.289 this fallacy that helped you create your model of behavior change. 00:01:19.650 --> 00:01:21.960 Can you share with us what this fallacy is? 00:01:22.300 --> 00:01:26.054 And then share the three components of your behavior change model. 00:01:26.535 --> 00:01:31.244 BJ Fogg: For decades, maybe longer, people have assumed that if you just give 00:01:31.244 --> 00:01:35.985 people information, it will change their behavior, and this doesn't work very well. 00:01:35.985 --> 00:01:40.755 And so I decided to give this problem a name, this fallacy name, and that's what 00:01:40.815 --> 00:01:42.375 it's called, information action fallacy. 00:01:42.375 --> 00:01:43.125 And it goes like this. 00:01:43.304 --> 00:01:47.774 If we give people information that will then change their attitude, 00:01:48.690 --> 00:01:52.080 then with attitude change, they will then change their behavior. 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:55.770 Now those links between information, attitude change, 00:01:55.860 --> 00:01:57.420 that's not a very reliable link. 00:01:57.420 --> 00:02:00.570 And even if you can change somebody's attitude, that doesn't 00:02:00.570 --> 00:02:02.280 necessarily change their behavior. 00:02:02.610 --> 00:02:05.370 The second part of your question had to do with the behavior model. 00:02:05.370 --> 00:02:10.889 So this came together from in about 2007, and it is a model 00:02:10.889 --> 00:02:14.190 that describes all behavior types, in all cultures, and so on. 00:02:14.190 --> 00:02:16.440 It's a universal model, and it goes like this. 00:02:16.890 --> 00:02:21.150 A behavior happens when three things come together at the same moment. 00:02:21.600 --> 00:02:24.090 One, there's motivation to do that behavior. 00:02:24.570 --> 00:02:26.970 Two, there's ability to behavior. 00:02:27.060 --> 00:02:31.110 And three, there's a prompt, something that says, do this behavior now. 00:02:31.110 --> 00:02:33.130 And when all those things come together, the behavior happens. 00:02:34.365 --> 00:02:38.025 And if one, any one of those things is missing, like there's no motivation 00:02:38.025 --> 00:02:41.355 or there's no ability or no prompt, then the behavior does not happen. 00:02:41.565 --> 00:02:43.995 Matt Abrahams: As the father of two teenage boys, I have certainly 00:02:43.995 --> 00:02:47.415 seen the information action fallacy happen in my own life. 00:02:47.685 --> 00:02:50.415 Give them lots of information hoping they'll change attitudes and we, 00:02:50.415 --> 00:02:51.945 we don't see any behavior changed. 00:02:52.410 --> 00:02:56.460 In terms of the model, the question I have is around what is a prompt? 00:02:56.460 --> 00:02:57.630 How do you define that prompt? 00:02:57.630 --> 00:02:59.560 I get ability, I get motivation. 00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:01.350 What does a prompt refer to? 00:03:01.620 --> 00:03:04.590 BJ Fogg: And that's an excellent question, Matt, because I mean, the 00:03:04.590 --> 00:03:08.400 idea of ability and motivation being important has been around for a long time. 00:03:08.850 --> 00:03:12.420 You can talk about skill and will, and so on, which is effectively that. 00:03:12.900 --> 00:03:15.870 The breakthrough really was understanding there has to be a prompt. 00:03:16.260 --> 00:03:19.110 A prompt is anything that says, do this now. 00:03:19.290 --> 00:03:20.970 Your phone ringing is a prompt. 00:03:20.970 --> 00:03:24.090 Somebody asking you a question is a prompt to reply. 00:03:24.630 --> 00:03:29.070 You looking at an action item on your to-do list is a prompt. 00:03:29.580 --> 00:03:31.710 There are a whole bunch of ways that we're, we couldn't even 00:03:31.710 --> 00:03:35.260 be prompted internally, like sensing hunger is a prompt. 00:03:35.660 --> 00:03:39.975 And what's important about that is we've gotta make sure for the behaviors we 00:03:39.975 --> 00:03:44.325 want, that the prompts happen, and if we're trying to stop or reduce behaviors, 00:03:44.745 --> 00:03:47.115 to minimize or get rid of the prompts. 00:03:47.175 --> 00:03:50.610 So you can design for behavior change simply, in some ways, 00:03:50.610 --> 00:03:52.830 by focusing on prompt design. 00:03:53.040 --> 00:03:53.760 Matt Abrahams: I see. 00:03:53.760 --> 00:03:59.430 So it's finding the prompts that can trigger the behavior you want, or removing 00:03:59.430 --> 00:04:03.660 some of those prompts, to, to get rid of the behaviors you don't want to invoke. 00:04:03.720 --> 00:04:03.930 BJ Fogg: Yeah. 00:04:03.930 --> 00:04:07.140 So that's one of the three things, levers, one of the three things you 00:04:07.140 --> 00:04:10.710 have to play around with to get a behavior happen or not to happen. 00:04:11.010 --> 00:04:16.515 And even though it's, you can write it in three letters, B equals M A P, 00:04:16.685 --> 00:04:20.915 it is a, I think, a profound model that can be used in so many ways. 00:04:21.155 --> 00:04:24.575 Matt Abrahams: Can you give us an example of a way in your coaching or teaching 00:04:24.575 --> 00:04:28.775 that can relate to, to the listeners and things that they, uh, behavior they 00:04:28.775 --> 00:04:32.260 might want to change and how they can use those three levers to accomplish that? 00:04:32.895 --> 00:04:35.445 BJ Fogg: Yeah, let's say that you want to read more. 00:04:35.535 --> 00:04:38.805 I mean, we read all the time, like email, social media, but you wanna read books. 00:04:39.015 --> 00:04:42.344 So number one, define what the behavior is. 00:04:42.344 --> 00:04:45.045 Okay, I wanna read this particular book. 00:04:45.344 --> 00:04:47.205 Okay, reading more is abstract. 00:04:47.445 --> 00:04:49.875 It's not a behavior, it's like an outcome. 00:04:50.250 --> 00:04:52.979 So pick a book you actually want to read. 00:04:52.979 --> 00:04:54.300 So that's the motivation part. 00:04:54.450 --> 00:04:56.640 Don't pick a book you don't want to read. 00:04:57.870 --> 00:04:59.099 So that's motivation. 00:04:59.099 --> 00:05:00.120 Next, ability. 00:05:00.210 --> 00:05:02.580 How do you make it easier to read that book? 00:05:02.849 --> 00:05:06.870 Well, you could get, uh, a paper version of the book and you could set it right 00:05:06.870 --> 00:05:09.300 by a chair that you sit in all the time. 00:05:09.599 --> 00:05:12.960 And then the third thing prompt, what is gonna prompt to remind me, in 00:05:12.960 --> 00:05:15.450 this case, the Kindle sitting there. 00:05:15.870 --> 00:05:17.760 That is, its prompt right there. 00:05:18.345 --> 00:05:20.115 I don't have to put on a to-do list. 00:05:20.115 --> 00:05:21.315 I don't have to put on the calendar. 00:05:21.315 --> 00:05:22.725 I don't put up a post-it note. 00:05:23.235 --> 00:05:28.335 In this case, the object that I need to read, the Kindle, or maybe the, 00:05:28.365 --> 00:05:31.395 the paperback version of a book, is the thing that will prompt me. 00:05:31.395 --> 00:05:35.115 So when you sit down, you see the book, it's like, oh, I can read now. 00:05:35.415 --> 00:05:38.135 And just open up the book, and continue reading. 00:05:38.490 --> 00:05:41.010 Matt Abrahams: Part of what you said that was really enlightening for me was 00:05:41.010 --> 00:05:45.690 that notion of being very specific about the behavior you, you wanna change. 00:05:45.690 --> 00:05:49.980 So it's not just reading in general and, and I set often lofty goals for myself. 00:05:49.980 --> 00:05:53.100 I wanna do more exercise or, or lose weight. 00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:57.090 But it sounds like what I should be doing is being much more specific and, and 00:05:57.090 --> 00:05:58.745 that's, I think, gonna be really helpful. 00:05:59.610 --> 00:06:03.870 Unlike my work on behavioral change, which is focused on how to change other people's 00:06:03.870 --> 00:06:08.550 attitudes and behaviors, you focus on how we can change our own behavior. 00:06:08.940 --> 00:06:11.880 The unit of change you highlight is habits. 00:06:12.270 --> 00:06:16.860 Can you define what a habit is and share some of the maxims that you've 00:06:16.860 --> 00:06:18.870 come up with regarding habits? 00:06:19.345 --> 00:06:19.555 BJ Fogg: Yeah. 00:06:19.995 --> 00:06:25.020 So the way I define habit is it's a behavior you do quite automatically 00:06:25.650 --> 00:06:28.765 without deciding, without deliberating, without thinking very much. 00:06:29.565 --> 00:06:34.725 We have many, many habits, and the good news here is habits are easier to 00:06:34.725 --> 00:06:37.785 form than most people think, if you do it in the right way, and that's what 00:06:37.905 --> 00:06:39.705 my Tiny Habits method is all about. 00:06:39.705 --> 00:06:40.845 It just breaks it down. 00:06:40.845 --> 00:06:44.175 It's very straightforward and people can form habits quickly and easily. 00:06:44.325 --> 00:06:50.625 Looking at creating habits or any type of lasting change, I've distilled the keys 00:06:50.655 --> 00:06:54.765 to habit formation, or engagement, or lasting change, down into two statements. 00:06:55.065 --> 00:07:00.105 Number one, is help yourself do what you already want to do. 00:07:00.495 --> 00:07:03.825 So notice in that, so you pick habits you already want to do, 00:07:03.825 --> 00:07:07.605 and don't pick habits you don't wanna do, and help yourself do it. 00:07:07.605 --> 00:07:10.815 And you help yourself do it by making that habit easier. 00:07:10.875 --> 00:07:12.345 And there's different ways to make it easier. 00:07:12.345 --> 00:07:14.535 So we're back to ability, we're back to simplicity. 00:07:15.105 --> 00:07:19.455 And you make it, help yourself do that, by making sure there's a prompt. 00:07:19.890 --> 00:07:23.760 So within that one statement that I call Fogg maxim number one, help 00:07:23.760 --> 00:07:27.419 yourself do what you already want to do, it brings together motivation, 00:07:27.419 --> 00:07:29.489 ability, and prompt in that statement. 00:07:29.489 --> 00:07:31.200 So that's number one. 00:07:31.979 --> 00:07:37.109 Fogg maxim number two is help yourself feel successful. 00:07:37.469 --> 00:07:42.239 And even though that's four words, that can be challenging to do, but 00:07:42.239 --> 00:07:48.045 it is very much worth knowing how to help, and then learning and developing 00:07:48.045 --> 00:07:51.765 the skill, frankly it's a skill, of helping yourself feel successful. 00:07:52.005 --> 00:07:56.355 Because it's that feeling, it's that emotion of success that wires in habits. 00:07:56.385 --> 00:08:01.065 That's what causes a behavior that you're deliberating, or deciding, or 00:08:01.065 --> 00:08:06.165 thinking about, turn into a behavior you do without thinking or deciding, 00:08:06.165 --> 00:08:07.665 a behavior you do quite automatically. 00:08:07.695 --> 00:08:10.185 It's emotions that create habits. 00:08:10.545 --> 00:08:14.354 And that's why the feeling of success is so important. 00:08:14.414 --> 00:08:19.455 Because when you do a new behavior and you feel successful, then you shift 00:08:19.455 --> 00:08:22.575 it on this continuum of automaticity and it becomes more automatic. 00:08:23.294 --> 00:08:26.805 Matt Abrahams: I think most of us think of habits as a mental effort, 00:08:26.805 --> 00:08:30.615 so the, the role of emotion to me is really, really intriguing. 00:08:30.945 --> 00:08:34.304 And setting us up for success so we can have that feeling of 00:08:34.304 --> 00:08:38.564 success as a reinforcing mechanism, I think is really, really cool. 00:08:38.655 --> 00:08:39.885 BJ Fogg: You said the exact right word. 00:08:40.230 --> 00:08:45.870 You, by causing yourself to feel successful, you are self reinforcing. 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:48.510 And you can do this deliberately. 00:08:48.990 --> 00:08:52.890 You don't have to leave that reinforcement to chance or to other people. 00:08:52.980 --> 00:08:54.810 You can self reinforce. 00:08:54.810 --> 00:08:58.710 And that's part of the Tiny Habits method, and we call that approach celebration. 00:08:59.070 --> 00:09:01.740 But what you're doing is causing yourself to feel successful at the 00:09:01.740 --> 00:09:06.600 right moment in order to self reinforce and cause that behavior to become 00:09:06.600 --> 00:09:07.920 more likely and more automatic. 00:09:08.550 --> 00:09:09.209 Matt Abrahams: That's great. 00:09:09.300 --> 00:09:13.500 And, and I've got lots of, of ways to, to feel really good about some of 00:09:13.500 --> 00:09:15.769 the habits I'm trying to, to take on. 00:09:15.769 --> 00:09:18.930 I'm gonna reward myself with my favorite chocolate, I think. 00:09:19.199 --> 00:09:23.760 I'd love for you to gimme specific advice on a habit i'm trying to develop better. 00:09:23.910 --> 00:09:28.094 As many of our listeners know, I'm a big believer in paraphrasing as a way 00:09:28.099 --> 00:09:32.310 to validate others' comments and to validate the accuracy of my understanding. 00:09:32.715 --> 00:09:36.675 What advice can you give me to make paraphrasing a 00:09:36.675 --> 00:09:38.415 stronger, better habit for me? 00:09:38.745 --> 00:09:41.775 BJ Fogg: So, in other words, what you want to hear from me is how to 00:09:41.775 --> 00:09:43.575 make paraphrasing a stronger habit? 00:09:44.195 --> 00:09:44.905 Matt Abrahams: Touché. 00:09:44.925 --> 00:09:45.444 Touché. 00:09:45.465 --> 00:09:45.975 Yes. 00:09:45.975 --> 00:09:48.045 You, you already have this habit, clearly. 00:09:49.515 --> 00:09:49.875 BJ Fogg: Okay. 00:09:50.325 --> 00:09:50.515 You know. 00:09:51.225 --> 00:09:53.265 Um, first of all, get clear. 00:09:53.385 --> 00:09:55.725 I mean, you're pretty clear on, of course you're super clear on this, 00:09:55.725 --> 00:09:58.574 Matt, but people listening, it's like, okay, what does paraphrasing mean? 00:09:58.905 --> 00:10:04.845 And then, when somebody says something to you, have that be the prompt or the 00:10:04.845 --> 00:10:08.385 reminder to paraphrase it back to them. 00:10:08.835 --> 00:10:12.585 And then, when you do that, and this is where the reinforcement comes in, 00:10:12.885 --> 00:10:15.405 pay attention to how they respond. 00:10:15.795 --> 00:10:19.785 And I think of many times, you will see, if you're talking face to face, 00:10:20.354 --> 00:10:24.464 you'll see them light up or you will be able to say yes, exactly. 00:10:24.795 --> 00:10:28.214 Embrace that as a positive result. 00:10:28.214 --> 00:10:31.275 In other words, pay attention to their response. 00:10:31.275 --> 00:10:33.854 That will reinforce the paraphrasing behavior. 00:10:34.185 --> 00:10:37.064 So let me paraphrase that, of myself, again. 00:10:37.064 --> 00:10:40.185 Number one, be clear on what it means to paraphrase. 00:10:40.185 --> 00:10:42.314 Number two, know when you're gonna do it. 00:10:42.344 --> 00:10:43.785 What is the prompt or cue? 00:10:43.785 --> 00:10:45.645 It's after somebody tells you something. 00:10:46.155 --> 00:10:50.805 And then after you paraphrase, stay tuned for that reaction from the 00:10:50.805 --> 00:10:55.515 other person and really allow yourself to feel that positive reaction 00:10:55.905 --> 00:10:57.855 that will help create that habit. 00:10:58.335 --> 00:10:59.655 Matt Abrahams: That's really helpful. 00:10:59.655 --> 00:11:05.325 And the last piece I find most helpful is I am often so focused on just 00:11:05.325 --> 00:11:10.095 making sure I paraphrase that I don't take the time to actually celebrate 00:11:10.095 --> 00:11:11.835 the result of that paraphrasing. 00:11:11.835 --> 00:11:15.195 Like, wow, that person really responded positively, or they 00:11:15.195 --> 00:11:18.465 gave me more information as a response to my paraphrasing. 00:11:18.465 --> 00:11:23.355 So, that celebration piece, which, which clearly I can see would 00:11:23.355 --> 00:11:27.105 be reinforcing and incent me and motivate me to, to paraphrase 00:11:27.105 --> 00:11:29.145 even more would be really helpful. 00:11:29.145 --> 00:11:32.265 So have that clarity of what I mean by paraphrasing. 00:11:32.265 --> 00:11:35.085 And to me it's really distilling down what the person is saying, 00:11:35.415 --> 00:11:39.545 use their responses, my trigger to actually initiate the paraphrase. 00:11:39.870 --> 00:11:42.000 Then the big one for me is celebrate. 00:11:42.060 --> 00:11:44.310 Did I, did I paraphrase that okay, Okay, how'd I do? 00:11:44.340 --> 00:11:45.300 BJ Fogg: I thought that was great. 00:11:45.570 --> 00:11:48.450 Matt Abrahams: I'd like to change the subject a little bit to, to 00:11:48.450 --> 00:11:53.550 better understand from you what role specificity and repetition 00:11:53.760 --> 00:11:55.710 play in building a new habit. 00:11:55.740 --> 00:11:59.340 You often hear, just keep doing it over and over again, and it becomes a habit, 00:11:59.580 --> 00:12:01.080 and I'm not quite sure you believe that. 00:12:01.290 --> 00:12:02.330 BJ Fogg: Yeah, exactly. 00:12:02.330 --> 00:12:03.680 Well, specificity. 00:12:04.110 --> 00:12:05.220 Be very clear. 00:12:05.370 --> 00:12:08.610 Going back to the reading example, don't just think, I wanna read more. 00:12:08.910 --> 00:12:11.280 Be very clear, I wanna read this book. 00:12:11.340 --> 00:12:13.290 And you might even define how much of the book. 00:12:13.290 --> 00:12:15.720 I think that's less important than, than knowing what book. 00:12:16.110 --> 00:12:17.790 And you might even define the location. 00:12:17.790 --> 00:12:19.420 I wanna read this book while sitting in this chair. 00:12:20.355 --> 00:12:25.185 It seems that there's a big difference to our brains between read more and after I 00:12:25.185 --> 00:12:27.015 sit in the chair I will read this book. 00:12:27.225 --> 00:12:30.825 And our brain can connect with the second and, uh, prompt you to do 00:12:30.825 --> 00:12:32.295 it and you're more likely to do it. 00:12:32.475 --> 00:12:37.065 The next topic around repetition that's long been said, that 00:12:37.155 --> 00:12:40.965 repetition is the key to creating habits, and that's just not true. 00:12:41.115 --> 00:12:42.435 It's emotions. 00:12:42.705 --> 00:12:44.685 What role does repetition play? 00:12:44.805 --> 00:12:50.830 Well, if you do a behavior and you feel strong, positive emotion as you do it, 00:12:51.070 --> 00:12:53.110 that habit will wire in very quickly. 00:12:53.650 --> 00:12:55.810 There's a type of habit that I call one and done. 00:12:55.810 --> 00:13:00.430 You do it one time and the habit is wired in because the emotion was so strong. 00:13:01.005 --> 00:13:04.094 For example, you buy a new car and you drive the car to work. 00:13:04.305 --> 00:13:07.665 That's not gonna take very long for driving the new car to become a habit 00:13:07.785 --> 00:13:08.864 'cause you're gonna feel so great. 00:13:08.864 --> 00:13:12.314 Or you find a new way to drive to Stanford that's prettier and faster. 00:13:12.405 --> 00:13:15.494 The sense of success of, it's more beautiful and faster, 00:13:15.494 --> 00:13:16.905 it's gonna wire it in. 00:13:16.905 --> 00:13:23.864 If the feeling of success is not that strong, then it takes more, it's like 00:13:23.864 --> 00:13:26.594 you're inching toward the automaticity. 00:13:27.015 --> 00:13:28.334 And so in that case. 00:13:28.725 --> 00:13:32.985 Doing the habit, let's say daily, allowing yourself to feel successful, 00:13:33.495 --> 00:13:36.255 then that will create a solid habit. 00:13:36.255 --> 00:13:37.605 It won't be one and done. 00:13:37.905 --> 00:13:42.045 So you need to, if you can't feel a strong, positive emotion, 00:13:42.314 --> 00:13:44.605 you need to repeat the habit. 00:13:45.355 --> 00:13:48.314 But it's not the repetition that's creating the habit, 00:13:48.314 --> 00:13:50.324 it's the emotion that you feel. 00:13:50.324 --> 00:13:52.095 So let's be really clear about that. 00:13:52.515 --> 00:13:57.030 Yes, you may need to repeat the habit, and cause yourself to feel successful 00:13:57.030 --> 00:13:58.950 multiple times for it to really wire in. 00:13:59.130 --> 00:14:02.730 But it's, it's not a function of repetition, it's a function of emotion. 00:14:04.090 --> 00:14:06.000 Matt Abrahams: So let me give you an example. 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:11.610 If I, I know exercise is good for me, but I don't like exercising or it hurts 00:14:11.610 --> 00:14:13.650 and I'm tired and fatigued afterwards. 00:14:14.085 --> 00:14:19.005 Forcing myself to, to continue to exercise actually is working against building it as 00:14:19.005 --> 00:14:22.485 a habit, is what I heard you say, because I'm not having a positive experience. 00:14:22.785 --> 00:14:26.145 It would be better for me to find a more positive way to 00:14:26.145 --> 00:14:27.375 get that physical activity. 00:14:27.375 --> 00:14:28.005 Is that correct? 00:14:28.065 --> 00:14:29.095 BJ Fogg: Yes, exactly. 00:14:29.345 --> 00:14:32.235 So there's at least a hundred ways to exercise. 00:14:32.445 --> 00:14:36.915 Find the way that you like, find the way that causes you to feel successful. 00:14:37.380 --> 00:14:41.430 And just because somebody runs a lot doesn't mean running is 00:14:41.430 --> 00:14:43.199 the right exercise for you. 00:14:43.199 --> 00:14:45.989 I know it's not the right one for me, that's for sure. 00:14:46.020 --> 00:14:49.500 It would be very hard for me to create running as a habit, even 00:14:49.500 --> 00:14:51.060 though I'm really great at habits. 00:14:51.390 --> 00:14:55.620 And part of being great at creating habits is knowing which habits to pick. 00:14:56.040 --> 00:15:01.709 So don't pick the ones that you don't like or don't want, or are painful for you. 00:15:02.145 --> 00:15:02.775 Matt Abrahams: I got it. 00:15:02.775 --> 00:15:05.865 I actually do enjoy running and in fact, the, the reward and 00:15:05.865 --> 00:15:09.375 celebration I have is I get the opportunity to listen to podcasts. 00:15:09.375 --> 00:15:11.235 So for me that's positive. 00:15:11.235 --> 00:15:14.715 But there are many other types of exercise I do not like, and I, I like what you 00:15:14.715 --> 00:15:18.780 just shared that can help me look for others that would be more positive. 00:15:19.110 --> 00:15:24.030 So before we end, I like to ask the same three questions of all of my guests. 00:15:24.030 --> 00:15:25.710 Are you willing to answer them for me? 00:15:25.890 --> 00:15:26.400 BJ Fogg: Sure. 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:27.450 Let's go. 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:28.230 Matt Abrahams: Okay. 00:15:28.230 --> 00:15:32.790 If you were to capture the best communication advice you have ever 00:15:32.790 --> 00:15:39.030 received as a five to seven word presentation slide title, what 00:15:39.030 --> 00:15:41.400 would those five to seven words be? 00:15:42.090 --> 00:15:44.640 BJ Fogg: Remember what it's like not to know. 00:15:46.650 --> 00:15:49.110 Matt Abrahams: Oh, so cool. 00:15:49.680 --> 00:15:51.360 Why is that the advice you would share? 00:15:51.870 --> 00:15:56.520 BJ Fogg: I was mentored by a brilliant man named John S. Harris, and this is back 00:15:56.520 --> 00:16:00.390 in the day when I was a technical writer and he was teaching me to be a technical 00:16:00.390 --> 00:16:02.190 editor and to teach technical writing. 00:16:02.220 --> 00:16:05.820 And one of his big things was, remember what it's like not to know. 00:16:06.420 --> 00:16:09.990 And essentially that's a way to say, have empathy, you know, 00:16:10.050 --> 00:16:13.950 and consider the audience and remember where they're coming from. 00:16:14.760 --> 00:16:17.430 That has guided my work ever since. 00:16:17.430 --> 00:16:21.270 You know, I moved away from technical writing and technical 00:16:21.270 --> 00:16:22.709 communication to other things. 00:16:22.709 --> 00:16:24.959 But remember what it's like not to know. 00:16:25.380 --> 00:16:25.589 Yeah. 00:16:26.160 --> 00:16:29.939 Matt Abrahams: That is such powerful advice because quite frankly, it's the 00:16:29.939 --> 00:16:31.709 antidote to the curse of knowledge. 00:16:31.709 --> 00:16:35.579 We all know a lot about what we're communicating and we miss helping 00:16:35.579 --> 00:16:38.040 people understand it because we come from the wrong place. 00:16:38.040 --> 00:16:40.860 So that beginner's mind, I, I really appreciate. 00:16:41.579 --> 00:16:43.709 I'll be curious to hear your answer to question two. 00:16:43.949 --> 00:16:47.219 Who is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:16:47.610 --> 00:16:53.520 BJ Fogg: There is a songwriter named Shawna Edwards and I've been working 00:16:53.520 --> 00:16:56.040 with her on songs about habits for kids. 00:16:56.040 --> 00:16:58.800 So I've been working with her for about a year, year and a half. 00:16:59.280 --> 00:17:05.944 And she is amazing at taking concepts, like I'll write some draft lyrics 00:17:05.944 --> 00:17:08.790 and they're just too complicated and not good for kids, and she'll just 00:17:08.790 --> 00:17:12.839 crunch them down into a much simpler version that still has the power, 00:17:12.990 --> 00:17:14.520 and then she can put music to 'em. 00:17:14.879 --> 00:17:19.829 It is just amazing to see how she communicates with words in music 00:17:20.280 --> 00:17:24.210 for the audience we're trying to reach, which is kids from 3 to 11. 00:17:24.810 --> 00:17:26.910 Matt Abrahams: I think it's great that you're trying to help kids in that age 00:17:26.910 --> 00:17:30.000 group, and I think it's fascinating to know that you're a lyricist. 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:33.560 I did not know that that was one of the many, uh, things that you have. 00:17:35.080 --> 00:17:39.150 BJ Fogg: I see myself more as the court jester working with someone 00:17:39.150 --> 00:17:40.710 as talented as Shawna Edwards. 00:17:40.770 --> 00:17:44.340 What a privilege, and I've just learned so much. 00:17:44.790 --> 00:17:49.200 But mostly just admire what she can do that I probably never will be able to do. 00:17:49.770 --> 00:17:51.930 Matt Abrahams: It is, it is a true pleasure to be in the 00:17:52.080 --> 00:17:55.410 presence of, of people who have mastered their craft, for sure. 00:17:56.610 --> 00:17:58.230 Final question, question three. 00:17:58.710 --> 00:18:03.840 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:18:04.050 --> 00:18:07.140 BJ Fogg: I wrote down these words before we started, but it's a great 00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:09.090 kind of wrap up of what we talked about. 00:18:09.360 --> 00:18:11.430 Empathy, number one. 00:18:11.610 --> 00:18:12.780 Simplicity. 00:18:13.665 --> 00:18:14.895 And practicality. 00:18:15.765 --> 00:18:17.595 Matt Abrahams: Certainly, certainly. 00:18:17.595 --> 00:18:23.385 And those ingredients can absolutely help you be very clear, concise, 00:18:23.415 --> 00:18:24.945 and, in many ways, compelling. 00:18:25.035 --> 00:18:26.655 And I appreciate that. 00:18:26.655 --> 00:18:29.955 And, and I appreciate that your answer to this question was a 00:18:29.955 --> 00:18:31.905 model of all three of those. 00:18:32.025 --> 00:18:33.285 Well, thank you BJ. 00:18:33.435 --> 00:18:37.040 I love your actionable, specific advice and guidance. 00:18:37.875 --> 00:18:40.544 I encourage everybody to check out the work you do, 00:18:40.544 --> 00:18:42.405 especially the Tiny Habits book. 00:18:42.524 --> 00:18:44.264 You have a free five day course. 00:18:44.264 --> 00:18:46.185 I, I am a graduate of that course. 00:18:46.185 --> 00:18:47.475 I have found it very helpful. 00:18:47.925 --> 00:18:50.115 Thank you for your time and thank you for your insight. 00:18:50.415 --> 00:18:51.105 BJ Fogg: Thank you, Matt. 00:18:51.105 --> 00:18:52.514 It's been a pleasure to talk to you. 00:18:55.215 --> 00:18:58.185 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for a special Rethinks episode of 00:18:58.185 --> 00:19:00.465 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:19:00.615 --> 00:19:05.264 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abraham. 00:19:05.745 --> 00:19:07.275 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:19:07.575 --> 00:19:09.675 With thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:19:10.155 --> 00:19:12.375 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcast. 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:15.450 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:19:15.660 --> 00:19:18.600 Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:19:19.140 --> 00:19:23.010 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:19:23.010 --> 00:19:25.170 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:19:25.620 --> 00:19:29.320 Please also consider joining Think Fasts Talk Smarts Learning Community 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:32.120 at fastersmarter.io/learning. 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:35.685 You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, 00:19:35.760 --> 00:19:38.010 our AI coaches, and book club.