WEBVTT 00:00:02.990 --> 00:00:07.360 Matt Abrahams: Sincerity, connection, and empathy define a meaningful life. 00:00:07.780 --> 00:00:10.740 My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:10.740 --> 00:00:12.530 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:12.870 --> 00:00:16.139 Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:16.499 --> 00:00:19.439 Today, I'm excited to share a live conversation I had with our 00:00:19.439 --> 00:00:24.979 returning guest, our first four-time guest, GSB professor Brian Lowery. 00:00:25.439 --> 00:00:30.109 As part of this year's Stanford LEAD Me2We, Brian and I sat down to discuss 00:00:30.109 --> 00:00:34.009 what makes for a meaningful life and how we operationalize that through our 00:00:34.009 --> 00:00:37.109 feedback to and communication with others. 00:00:37.429 --> 00:00:39.060 Enjoy our conversation. 00:00:39.790 --> 00:00:41.030 Brian, thanks for being here. 00:00:41.070 --> 00:00:42.370 It's exciting to chat with you. 00:00:42.580 --> 00:00:46.100 Brian and I have had a number of conversations on the show and otherwise, 00:00:46.200 --> 00:00:50.769 and I remember a couple years ago when we had our conversation, people got really, 00:00:50.769 --> 00:00:57.170 really excited about some of your research about motivation, meaning, purpose. 00:00:57.499 --> 00:01:01.969 Can you remind us the difference from the way you look at meaning versus purpose? 00:01:02.210 --> 00:01:04.929 Brian Lowery: Yeah, so purpose is what you do in the morning, right? 00:01:04.970 --> 00:01:07.710 So purpose is like, "I have to do this, I have to do that," or, "I'm 00:01:07.710 --> 00:01:11.390 trying to achieve this." And meaning is something that, I think of it 00:01:11.390 --> 00:01:14.150 as like extends you in time, right? 00:01:14.150 --> 00:01:16.809 So it's not just what you do at any given moment. 00:01:17.069 --> 00:01:19.870 One way to think of it is like how you'd be remembered. 00:01:20.139 --> 00:01:21.780 Why is what you're doing matters? 00:01:21.789 --> 00:01:23.050 So that's how people talk about meaning. 00:01:23.050 --> 00:01:26.559 It's about not just what you do, but why does it matter? 00:01:26.599 --> 00:01:29.599 And also mattering is usually about other people. 00:01:30.060 --> 00:01:33.749 So purpose is often for you, what gets you up in the morning, but meaning 00:01:33.779 --> 00:01:36.060 almost always involves other people. 00:01:36.189 --> 00:01:37.239 So that's kind of the difference. 00:01:37.459 --> 00:01:39.969 Matt Abrahams: So individual versus connecting to others. 00:01:40.360 --> 00:01:44.659 Do you have advice and guidance on how we can better find our purpose? 00:01:44.900 --> 00:01:46.010 Brian Lowery: Find our purpose. 00:01:46.279 --> 00:01:47.179 I think purpose is whatever. 00:01:47.179 --> 00:01:48.420 You can just decide what your purpose is. 00:01:48.420 --> 00:01:50.739 There's no magic in purpose. 00:01:51.080 --> 00:01:54.029 I think that people when they say purpose, sometimes what they mean is meaning. 00:01:54.150 --> 00:01:54.939 Purpose is easy. 00:01:54.940 --> 00:01:57.369 I think the idea of like find your passion, I don't 00:01:57.409 --> 00:01:58.509 personally subscribe to that. 00:01:58.589 --> 00:02:01.419 I'm like, make what you do your passion, as opposed to go out and 00:02:01.419 --> 00:02:04.359 try to figure out what it is, 'cause now you're searching and who knows. 00:02:04.389 --> 00:02:08.679 I think you decide what it is you want to do and then commit 00:02:08.679 --> 00:02:10.150 yourself to doing that thing. 00:02:10.150 --> 00:02:12.510 That, that thing, that is how you find your purpose. 00:02:12.919 --> 00:02:15.069 Matt Abrahams: So it's almost observing what's going on in your life and 00:02:15.069 --> 00:02:16.590 what's there and then that becomes it. 00:02:16.610 --> 00:02:17.830 So how do you find meaning? 00:02:18.269 --> 00:02:24.480 Brian Lowery: I think meaning is about who do you want to serve other than yourself. 00:02:24.549 --> 00:02:26.280 And that can be a number of people in different ways. 00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:32.499 That could be your kids, that could be your students, that could be future 00:02:32.499 --> 00:02:35.489 generations of users of your product. 00:02:35.599 --> 00:02:39.910 It could be all sorts of people, but it has to be serving someone other than 00:02:39.910 --> 00:02:45.069 yourself, connecting to someone other than yourself, providing something outside 00:02:45.069 --> 00:02:47.889 of yourself that will extend beyond you. 00:02:47.889 --> 00:02:51.800 So often the way people talk about mattering and meaning is that it has 00:02:51.810 --> 00:02:54.630 to reverberate beyond your presence. 00:02:54.630 --> 00:02:57.930 So it can't just be, "I'm here with you, I did this thing." It has to 00:02:57.930 --> 00:03:00.590 be, "I'm here with you doing this thing, and when I leave, what I 00:03:00.590 --> 00:03:02.450 did will continue to influence you. 00:03:02.700 --> 00:03:04.950 How I've touched you will continue to influence you, and then you 00:03:04.950 --> 00:03:06.209 will influence other people. 00:03:06.529 --> 00:03:09.499 And so now I've indirectly influenced those people." That 00:03:09.510 --> 00:03:11.179 is where meaning comes from. 00:03:11.598 --> 00:03:13.028 Matt Abrahams: So it's almost like a ripple effect. 00:03:13.338 --> 00:03:14.118 Brian Lowery: It's a ripple effect. 00:03:14.118 --> 00:03:19.328 And I think meaning is about being mindful of the effect you have on other 00:03:19.328 --> 00:03:23.957 people, and being purposeful about the effect you have on other people. 00:03:24.038 --> 00:03:26.817 Matt Abrahams: Okay, so the purpose in many ways drives the meaning. 00:03:26.987 --> 00:03:27.267 Brian Lowery: Yeah. 00:03:27.508 --> 00:03:30.208 In the sense of, like, anything you do can affect other people. 00:03:30.518 --> 00:03:31.687 You just choose to do something, right? 00:03:31.688 --> 00:03:35.087 You just choose, "I'm gonna try to make this best place to work. I'm 00:03:35.088 --> 00:03:39.097 gonna choose to make this meeting or this vacation," or whatever. 00:03:39.258 --> 00:03:42.797 But if you're doing it in service of other people and understand that 00:03:42.987 --> 00:03:46.268 it's affecting those people, it will change the way you do it, and it 00:03:46.268 --> 00:03:47.857 will make it more meaningful for you. 00:03:48.287 --> 00:03:53.428 When you're thinking about how what you're doing touches and influences 00:03:53.428 --> 00:03:57.807 other people, that will give you an experience of meaningfulness in your life. 00:03:58.107 --> 00:04:02.968 Being mindful other people are being influenced by your behaviors 00:04:03.337 --> 00:04:05.518 changes how you understand yourself. 00:04:06.030 --> 00:04:09.460 Matt Abrahams: You're adding at least one layer, if not more, on this notion 00:04:09.460 --> 00:04:11.140 of empathy that we were talking about. 00:04:11.140 --> 00:04:14.580 It's this idea of my impact on you and what it means. 00:04:14.820 --> 00:04:18.779 When I read your book, and we talked about it before on the show, one 00:04:18.779 --> 00:04:22.089 thing that I'm still trying to wrap my mind around is this notion of how 00:04:22.089 --> 00:04:24.130 we define ourselves through others. 00:04:24.300 --> 00:04:25.540 Can you walk us through that? 00:04:25.550 --> 00:04:29.169 And if nothing else, this is a tutorial for me 'cause I'm still trying to grasp 00:04:29.169 --> 00:04:30.720 this, but can you help me understand? 00:04:30.790 --> 00:04:33.350 Brian Lowery: So the way I would say it is, without others, you 00:04:33.350 --> 00:04:34.670 would have no idea who you were. 00:04:34.889 --> 00:04:38.060 So in this conversation already, you've said, like, you're, or I asked you about 00:04:38.060 --> 00:04:39.999 it, but you're, you're, you have a wife. 00:04:40.300 --> 00:04:40.733 Matt Abrahams: And I have two kids. 00:04:40.733 --> 00:04:41.120 Brian Lowery: You have kids. 00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:41.550 Matt Abrahams: Yes, I do. 00:04:41.550 --> 00:04:42.160 Brian Lowery: You have two kids. 00:04:42.510 --> 00:04:45.930 All those things come together and tell you something about who you are. 00:04:46.149 --> 00:04:50.009 Like, you're a dad, you're a husband, you're a podcaster, you're an interviewer. 00:04:50.109 --> 00:04:54.679 And you can add things to that, and those collectively are who you are. 00:04:54.989 --> 00:04:59.299 All of the parts, those plus any others you can come up with that 00:04:59.300 --> 00:05:03.479 you think of as who you are, depend on relationships with other people. 00:05:03.729 --> 00:05:07.109 Those ideas of who you are and your own internal ideas of who you are 00:05:07.109 --> 00:05:09.439 would not exist absent those people. 00:05:09.440 --> 00:05:11.140 Like, you can't be a husband without a wife. 00:05:11.159 --> 00:05:13.059 You cannot be a parent without kids. 00:05:13.469 --> 00:05:16.029 You cannot be a podcaster without an audience. 00:05:16.199 --> 00:05:19.960 So without other people, the things that you use to define yourself don't exist. 00:05:20.320 --> 00:05:23.659 Matt Abrahams: So in connection to others, we help define ourselves. 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:27.030 Many folks sitting in this room are leaders, managers, and they 00:05:27.030 --> 00:05:28.379 have others that work for them. 00:05:28.460 --> 00:05:33.999 How do we help create the selves of those people who work with us or work for us? 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:37.159 I mean, there are things we can do to help them define themselves and 00:05:37.159 --> 00:05:38.809 their roles in our organizations. 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:39.839 Talk to me about that. 00:05:40.229 --> 00:05:43.309 Brian Lowery: I think that we define people, interact with them all the time in 00:05:43.309 --> 00:05:47.979 ways that we don't take seriously because in some cultures, at least in the States 00:05:47.979 --> 00:05:51.219 and other places, not just the States, but certainly in the States, there's a 00:05:51.219 --> 00:05:54.299 sense of like, 'I exist as an island. 00:05:54.329 --> 00:05:57.829 I'm the most important thing, and then all I care about is did I affect you 00:05:57.829 --> 00:06:00.369 and did you affect me?' But there's a barrier that cannot be crossed. 00:06:00.640 --> 00:06:03.049 I just think that's fundamentally wrong. 00:06:03.079 --> 00:06:06.469 That is just not how things actually work socially. 00:06:06.979 --> 00:06:11.040 And so when we're interacting, we are co-constructing each other. 00:06:11.369 --> 00:06:13.830 Part of that is really philosophical and abstract. 00:06:13.979 --> 00:06:15.669 Like, if you're a leader, you're telling people what they have 00:06:15.669 --> 00:06:16.470 to do when they go to work. 00:06:16.709 --> 00:06:18.649 You're telling people what time they have to show up, that you're 00:06:18.649 --> 00:06:21.510 making them feel happy to be there or hate being there, right? 00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:23.300 Those things are part of how they think about themselves. 00:06:23.330 --> 00:06:28.329 When they go home, they're talking about you and the workplace in particular 00:06:28.330 --> 00:06:31.544 ways and themselves as a part of that. 00:06:31.554 --> 00:06:33.063 Like, I hate my job. 00:06:33.084 --> 00:06:34.784 I'm the kind of person that hates my job. 00:06:35.104 --> 00:06:36.034 I love my job. 00:06:36.054 --> 00:06:37.614 I'm the kind of person who loves my job. 00:06:38.013 --> 00:06:40.654 You know, these people at work, they're annoying to me, or I miss 00:06:40.654 --> 00:06:44.073 them, or whatever it is, but all those things are changing how you see 00:06:44.073 --> 00:06:48.154 yourself, and they're changing how you show up and behave at work, too. 00:06:48.613 --> 00:06:52.364 If you're a manager, you are constructing the environment 00:06:52.543 --> 00:06:53.943 in which people are working. 00:06:54.253 --> 00:06:56.253 The environment in which people work, the environment which 00:06:56.253 --> 00:07:00.413 people live, in all sorts of ways directly affects how they behave. 00:07:00.623 --> 00:07:04.413 And so when you see someone behaving in a way that you like or don't like, you 00:07:04.414 --> 00:07:07.414 should first ask yourself, if you're a leader in that environment, what 00:07:07.414 --> 00:07:09.813 am I doing that produces that, right? 00:07:09.813 --> 00:07:13.023 And this gets away from this idea of like they are who they are and 00:07:13.024 --> 00:07:16.173 they're just doing what they do, and you start to think of like how am I 00:07:16.243 --> 00:07:20.003 participating in producing this behavior? 00:07:20.214 --> 00:07:21.813 Now, people will be like, "But that's not true. 00:07:21.813 --> 00:07:23.313 They're just a terrible human being, and they're just 00:07:23.453 --> 00:07:24.793 lazy." I'm like, "That's fine. 00:07:24.793 --> 00:07:25.033 I don't know. 00:07:25.033 --> 00:07:31.263 Yeah, there are some lazy people." But the thing is, one, I'm right. Two, even if I'm 00:07:31.263 --> 00:07:37.073 wrong, which I'm not, but even if I were wrong, it is more rational to ask yourself 00:07:37.113 --> 00:07:43.674 as a leader, what can I do to change the situation than to say, "I have no agency. 00:07:43.674 --> 00:07:47.043 I can't do anything 'cause they are who they are." Given those two, I 00:07:47.043 --> 00:07:50.443 think you would choose to say like, "Where am I in this?" And that 00:07:50.454 --> 00:07:52.713 agency requires responsibility. 00:07:52.863 --> 00:07:57.002 And what the responsibility I'm talking about here is understanding 00:07:57.002 --> 00:08:01.402 that how you behave as a leader is shaping how the people that 00:08:01.402 --> 00:08:02.942 work for you show up and behave. 00:08:03.292 --> 00:08:06.062 Matt Abrahams: And I think that puts a lot of responsibility on 00:08:06.071 --> 00:08:07.342 leaders to really reflect on that. 00:08:07.342 --> 00:08:09.972 A lot of leaders just optimize for output, right? 00:08:10.082 --> 00:08:13.491 And they don't really think about what they're doing that can lead to that. 00:08:13.642 --> 00:08:16.571 Brian Lowery: People don't understand that who they are is 00:08:16.572 --> 00:08:18.091 shaping who their employees are. 00:08:18.261 --> 00:08:20.151 So it's not just what you tell them to do. 00:08:20.321 --> 00:08:22.392 It's who you are, how are you showing up? 00:08:22.622 --> 00:08:25.921 And so people often just focus on what's outside of them, like how are 00:08:25.921 --> 00:08:28.971 they behaving, how do I alter their behavior, without looking at the self. 00:08:29.061 --> 00:08:32.662 If you change how you show up, you will change how people around you show up. 00:08:32.921 --> 00:08:35.212 And so in the context of work, people might not see it that way. 00:08:35.212 --> 00:08:38.682 But if you think about families, people understand this implicitly. 00:08:38.891 --> 00:08:41.911 If you're, like, in a terrible mood all the time or you're unhappy with life or 00:08:41.912 --> 00:08:45.371 something like that, for sure that is gonna affect your wife and your kids. 00:08:45.642 --> 00:08:47.261 Like, no one has to explain that to you. 00:08:47.541 --> 00:08:49.582 But somehow you go to work, it's as if, like, people all 00:08:49.591 --> 00:08:50.731 have their responsibilities. 00:08:50.741 --> 00:08:51.992 Who I am doesn't matter. 00:08:52.191 --> 00:08:53.971 I'm just telling them what to do, you do what you're told. 00:08:53.971 --> 00:08:57.061 And, like, my person, how I show up, has no influence. 00:08:57.061 --> 00:08:58.031 That just cannot be true. 00:08:58.232 --> 00:09:00.731 Matt Abrahams: That analogy really does help cement the idea. 00:09:00.781 --> 00:09:03.061 We think of that with our family and friends very easily, 00:09:03.061 --> 00:09:04.141 but we don't see it at work. 00:09:04.351 --> 00:09:09.621 Is there advice or best practices you have for people in leadership roles to help 00:09:09.892 --> 00:09:14.062 maximize the success and the wellbeing of the people that work with them? 00:09:14.062 --> 00:09:17.802 What can we do to help them see themselves that way? 00:09:18.182 --> 00:09:21.511 Brian Lowery: Doing work on self-awareness actually has notable 00:09:21.511 --> 00:09:26.032 effects on how your employees respond to you and their experience of work. 00:09:26.131 --> 00:09:28.301 So there's evidence, there's research on this, right? 00:09:28.301 --> 00:09:32.441 So the closer that the way your employees see you is the way you see yourself, 00:09:32.752 --> 00:09:37.712 the safer and the more efficient your employees are, as an example. 00:09:38.126 --> 00:09:45.006 So one is being willing to examine the self and being willing to respond 00:09:45.006 --> 00:09:48.846 to the environment in such a way that allows for people to know you 00:09:49.055 --> 00:09:53.066 in a way that allows them to feel a degree of psychological safety. 00:09:53.066 --> 00:09:56.965 And psychological safety here is, at best, predictability, like understand 00:09:56.966 --> 00:09:59.076 you, and you think I understand you. 00:09:59.216 --> 00:10:01.716 That changes the way we work together. 00:10:01.835 --> 00:10:03.856 And that's not about you're nice. 00:10:04.245 --> 00:10:06.605 It's not about doing what I want you to do. 00:10:06.606 --> 00:10:08.895 It's just like I'm working for you, I understand you. 00:10:08.925 --> 00:10:12.035 You agree with that understanding, now we can work in a different way 00:10:12.036 --> 00:10:13.855 than if I can't, I don't really know what's going on with you. 00:10:13.896 --> 00:10:15.265 I can't figure out what's going on with you. 00:10:15.265 --> 00:10:17.606 I hear what you're telling me to do, but I don't understand you. 00:10:17.905 --> 00:10:21.415 That creates a distance and some degree of unsafety, which undermines 00:10:21.495 --> 00:10:24.025 the work relationship and undermines the quality of the work of people. 00:10:24.196 --> 00:10:31.785 So self-awareness, also being willing to examine and accept the perspective of the 00:10:31.795 --> 00:10:36.225 other people, even if it doesn't match yours, is legitimate and reasonable. 00:10:36.646 --> 00:10:42.016 So I might not agree with how you see things, but I should take your experience 00:10:42.175 --> 00:10:44.425 seriously, whether I agree with it or not. 00:10:44.645 --> 00:10:48.395 And again, the agreement is not the issue, but, like, truly trying to understand, 00:10:48.556 --> 00:10:50.215 engaging with how you see the world. 00:10:50.465 --> 00:10:55.176 Also, that there's clear evidence that that has positive effects because often 00:10:55.176 --> 00:10:56.695 people care about being respected. 00:10:56.876 --> 00:11:00.435 So sometimes people worry about or think that people only care about what they get. 00:11:00.626 --> 00:11:04.345 So of course, people care about that, but they also care about did you hear me? 00:11:04.545 --> 00:11:06.235 Do you care that I want this thing? 00:11:06.265 --> 00:11:08.565 Even if you don't give it to me, do you even respect me? 00:11:09.166 --> 00:11:13.565 And if you demonstrate that to people, like you're asking questions, you 00:11:13.565 --> 00:11:15.845 really care about the answer they give, even if you don't agree, you're 00:11:15.846 --> 00:11:19.415 trying to understand, and they see that as a sincere, the way they'll 00:11:19.416 --> 00:11:23.065 respond to that and the kind of leeway they will give you is surprising. 00:11:23.175 --> 00:11:27.025 And so that's another thing I would tell people, like, one, understand yourself. 00:11:27.245 --> 00:11:30.895 Be sensitive to how other people see you so that you can create a 00:11:30.895 --> 00:11:33.196 match between how you see yourself and how other people see you. 00:11:33.196 --> 00:11:34.915 There's positive gain there. 00:11:35.205 --> 00:11:39.625 Two, and as a part of that, taking seriously the perspective of other people. 00:11:39.815 --> 00:11:43.585 You don't have to agree with them, but taking it seriously changes 00:11:43.585 --> 00:11:45.395 their experience of the situation. 00:11:45.486 --> 00:11:48.425 Those things together have huge positive benefits. 00:11:48.915 --> 00:11:53.665 Matt Abrahams: So self-awareness as well as acknowledging seriously 00:11:53.715 --> 00:11:55.045 the other person's perspective. 00:11:55.365 --> 00:11:58.725 It strikes me that that requires a level of confidence and vulnerability, 00:11:58.725 --> 00:12:02.266 though, to do that, to show up as your true self and to look internal. 00:12:02.525 --> 00:12:04.225 Brian Lowery: Just to be clear, I have no idea what a true self 00:12:04.225 --> 00:12:05.645 is, but here's what I know. 00:12:05.905 --> 00:12:07.425 You show up in a particular way. 00:12:07.545 --> 00:12:11.072 Whether or not that's your true self or not, I don't know I would worry 00:12:11.092 --> 00:12:13.502 more about sincerity than truth. 00:12:13.722 --> 00:12:17.181 The goal is not to, like, be who you are all the time with everyone. 00:12:17.181 --> 00:12:19.012 like, That's just not how human beings operate. 00:12:19.521 --> 00:12:22.561 And so instead of worrying about the true self, I think you 00:12:22.561 --> 00:12:23.842 should worry about sincerity. 00:12:23.842 --> 00:12:27.151 Am I being as honest as I can right now? 00:12:27.261 --> 00:12:28.461 Matt Abrahams: With myself and with others. 00:12:28.482 --> 00:12:29.041 Brian Lowery: Yes. 00:12:29.232 --> 00:12:32.451 And that is a different thing than saying, "Am I being my true self?" Sometimes 00:12:32.452 --> 00:12:34.092 being your true self might be an asshole. 00:12:34.241 --> 00:12:35.871 Like, you're in a bad mood, you're being an asshole. 00:12:35.872 --> 00:12:36.411 That's fine. 00:12:36.421 --> 00:12:37.561 Don't be that true self. 00:12:37.561 --> 00:12:38.241 It's okay. 00:12:38.362 --> 00:12:42.351 But when you engage with people, be sincere, and that's different 00:12:42.351 --> 00:12:45.272 than, like, 'cause people have this idea of, like, "If it's in my head, 00:12:45.272 --> 00:12:46.501 I gotta say it." No, you don't. 00:12:46.581 --> 00:12:46.951 No. 00:12:47.221 --> 00:12:47.831 Please don't. 00:12:47.841 --> 00:12:49.112 Be, don't be your true self with me. 00:12:49.351 --> 00:12:53.531 But be sincere, and I think that that's what people are expecting, sincerity. 00:12:53.871 --> 00:12:56.031 Matt Abrahams: It does require you to really think about and know 00:12:56.041 --> 00:12:58.651 what's important to you and to have your own values understood. 00:12:59.061 --> 00:13:02.271 I wanna talk about the crucible of feedback because it strikes me 00:13:02.291 --> 00:13:05.071 that, you know, many leaders have to give feedback, but this could be a 00:13:05.071 --> 00:13:07.961 friction point or some tension with some of the issues you're talking. 00:13:08.091 --> 00:13:11.902 'Cause when I give you feedback, I'm confronting your perceptions of yourself. 00:13:12.162 --> 00:13:14.321 How does feedback work well in this paradigm? 00:13:14.681 --> 00:13:16.522 Brian Lowery: I think it should be, again, sincere. 00:13:16.522 --> 00:13:19.721 And if you understand the other person's perspective of themselves, I think the 00:13:19.721 --> 00:13:23.831 fear is that it's hard to give hard feedback, it's hard to get hard feedback, 00:13:23.831 --> 00:13:25.381 or fear that that's what you're gonna get. 00:13:25.651 --> 00:13:29.591 I think once you create a relationship where there's sincerity, you can 00:13:29.602 --> 00:13:34.011 give feedback in such a way where you're asking people to understand 00:13:34.011 --> 00:13:36.222 how you experience what is happening. 00:13:36.591 --> 00:13:40.071 And this is, I think, the issue with feedback, is it feels like I'm making a 00:13:40.071 --> 00:13:42.251 statement of truth that you don't like. 00:13:42.731 --> 00:13:44.171 But that's not really what's happening. 00:13:44.172 --> 00:13:48.252 What I'm telling you is, "Here's how I perceive what is happening. 00:13:48.672 --> 00:13:51.681 Here's how I'm experiencing what you're doing," and maybe even, 00:13:51.681 --> 00:13:53.172 "Here's what I'm thinking about that." 00:13:53.742 --> 00:13:58.671 That's a very different claim than like, "You are not good at your job." Right? 00:13:58.901 --> 00:14:03.102 "You are bad at this thing." I might be like, "Look, what you did here 00:14:03.112 --> 00:14:06.252 didn't have the effect that we hoped it would." I think that would be 00:14:06.252 --> 00:14:09.591 enough for most people to understand and like, "Okay, can I get better 00:14:09.591 --> 00:14:11.011 or not?" And they can ask questions. 00:14:11.262 --> 00:14:12.021 You know what's funny about this? 00:14:12.041 --> 00:14:15.171 I'm like working on fiction writings, and I have a developmental editor. 00:14:15.271 --> 00:14:17.281 And so a development editor, the way it works is like you write, 00:14:17.291 --> 00:14:19.851 you send them pages, and they give you feedback on the pages. 00:14:19.851 --> 00:14:20.461 They give you direct feedbacks. 00:14:20.461 --> 00:14:23.531 They go through your writing, they make comments, and they give you a 00:14:23.531 --> 00:14:26.262 letter that's like, "Here's what I see, here's what I think, here's what you 00:14:26.262 --> 00:14:27.381 need to work on," blah, blah, blah. 00:14:27.771 --> 00:14:32.531 It feels deeply personal, and it's very vulnerable to write something, 00:14:32.812 --> 00:14:35.842 because it comes from you and it's who you are, and then have 00:14:35.842 --> 00:14:37.692 someone give you feedback on that. 00:14:38.021 --> 00:14:40.951 And recently in our meeting, I was like, "Uh, you know, I really love the way you 00:14:40.951 --> 00:14:44.551 give feedback." And like, I felt like I learned something from her, and this 00:14:44.551 --> 00:14:47.921 is kind of where this is coming from, 'cause one, the feedback always feels 00:14:47.941 --> 00:14:49.641 honest, and I don't always like it. 00:14:49.671 --> 00:14:50.871 I don't even always agree with it. 00:14:50.972 --> 00:14:53.821 And sometimes it's like the version of like, this isn't good, and 00:14:53.821 --> 00:14:56.592 I understand what she's saying, but I never feel defensive. 00:14:56.891 --> 00:14:58.961 I look forward to having these meetings with her. 00:14:59.151 --> 00:15:01.061 I look forward to getting her letters and feedback. 00:15:01.161 --> 00:15:02.362 I know it's not gonna all be positive. 00:15:02.362 --> 00:15:04.811 In fact, I expect it not to all be positive. 00:15:05.102 --> 00:15:06.951 And I'm not sensitive about it at all. 00:15:07.212 --> 00:15:08.481 And I talked to her about it, actually. 00:15:08.481 --> 00:15:10.938 I said like, "You know, I was gonna tell you that like, first of 00:15:10.938 --> 00:15:13.392 all, I teach a lot of classes and like, you're really good at this. 00:15:13.481 --> 00:15:17.051 I really appreciate the way you give feedback." And what she said was, 00:15:17.492 --> 00:15:22.741 "When I give feedback, I always think about the intent of the author." So 00:15:22.742 --> 00:15:24.322 I'm like, "What were you trying to do? 00:15:24.361 --> 00:15:25.372 What was your goal here? 00:15:25.521 --> 00:15:27.661 You might have completely failed, and I do all the time. 00:15:27.861 --> 00:15:31.971 And I need you to understand how you failed because my job is to help you grow, 00:15:32.001 --> 00:15:36.492 so I, I have to give you this feedback." And that engagement with her, I think 00:15:36.492 --> 00:15:41.242 why that feedback works, and what I love about it, is I feel seen in the feedback. 00:15:41.381 --> 00:15:44.031 And when she says something, I'm like, "That's correct," right? 00:15:44.061 --> 00:15:45.021 But I feel seen. 00:15:45.161 --> 00:15:47.651 'Cause by the way, I worked with someone else who I hated, couldn't stand her. 00:15:47.651 --> 00:15:51.542 I was like, "This person is terrible." And she was also probably right, but 00:15:51.551 --> 00:15:55.791 the feeling was like, this person is telling me what I should be. 00:15:56.201 --> 00:15:59.831 She's telling me what she sees and how I'm falling short of her ideal. 00:16:00.131 --> 00:16:02.061 It was like even if it was right, it was just bad. 00:16:02.331 --> 00:16:05.891 And this other woman is like, "I see what you are trying to be. 00:16:06.102 --> 00:16:07.891 I see what you are trying to do. 00:16:08.271 --> 00:16:11.591 And I'm gonna tell you where you're falling short." It was 00:16:11.591 --> 00:16:13.091 just a world of difference. 00:16:13.152 --> 00:16:16.311 And I thought about that and I'm like, look, if you assume that people are 00:16:16.311 --> 00:16:19.741 trying to be successful, right, and you're looking at their intent and like 00:16:19.751 --> 00:16:22.752 even when they fall short, it's not that people don't know they're falling short. 00:16:22.962 --> 00:16:24.631 If they don't, then it is your job to tell them. 00:16:24.731 --> 00:16:27.951 And so saying like, "I see what you're trying to do. I see you're making effort. 00:16:28.381 --> 00:16:33.201 Here's where it might not be working." And doing it in a way that takes seriously 00:16:33.201 --> 00:16:38.292 that person's desire to be successful, I think changes things dramatically. 00:16:38.996 --> 00:16:40.616 Matt Abrahams: So much richness in that answer. 00:16:40.626 --> 00:16:44.596 The part that I'm really reflecting on in my own life, seeing the person 00:16:44.596 --> 00:16:49.475 for who they want to be versus who you think they should be is a fundamental 00:16:49.476 --> 00:16:51.696 difference in how you approach feedback. 00:16:51.826 --> 00:16:55.856 And what you said earlier, which I think is also really important, is what am 00:16:55.856 --> 00:16:58.405 I doing that's contributing to this? 00:16:58.735 --> 00:17:01.116 So it's not just about here's what's wrong or here's what could 00:17:01.116 --> 00:17:02.706 be improved, it's what am I doing? 00:17:02.955 --> 00:17:08.205 And then really help the person to see it through that understanding 00:17:08.215 --> 00:17:09.705 and being present for them. 00:17:09.985 --> 00:17:11.876 I have to really think about how I've been giving feedback. 00:17:11.876 --> 00:17:12.665 I appreciate that. 00:17:13.075 --> 00:17:15.585 Last question I'll ask, the class you teach is very popular. 00:17:15.586 --> 00:17:17.565 A lot of people are really excited to take it. 00:17:17.575 --> 00:17:20.156 What's one thing you hope your students take away from the class? 00:17:20.505 --> 00:17:23.366 Brian Lowery: The thing that I always want people to take away is, and if 00:17:23.366 --> 00:17:26.535 you hear me talk outside of class, I think it's probably more apparent, 00:17:26.545 --> 00:17:32.285 but I think for me, my class is about being a better human being. 00:17:32.406 --> 00:17:33.575 And I don't mean good. 00:17:33.615 --> 00:17:35.575 I don't mean like, I hope you all are good people. 00:17:35.595 --> 00:17:37.655 You should strive to be good people, but I'm not talking 00:17:37.656 --> 00:17:39.856 about morally a good person. 00:17:40.135 --> 00:17:43.975 What I'm talking about is being better at being human. 00:17:44.225 --> 00:17:48.445 And I think the fundamental thing about being human is our 00:17:48.455 --> 00:17:50.035 connections with other human beings. 00:17:50.035 --> 00:17:53.845 And I mean this literally, you are not human without other human beings. 00:17:53.885 --> 00:17:56.686 You cannot be fully human absent other human beings. 00:17:57.055 --> 00:18:03.495 And so what is defining about being human is our connections with the quality of 00:18:03.496 --> 00:18:05.165 interactions with other human beings. 00:18:05.345 --> 00:18:07.625 When you show up at work and there are people there, those are not 00:18:07.625 --> 00:18:11.176 different human beings than the human beings that are at home or at any 00:18:11.176 --> 00:18:12.765 place else that you see human beings. 00:18:13.085 --> 00:18:18.036 And so being a better human being, being more effective at engaging with human 00:18:18.036 --> 00:18:23.176 beings in relationships will definitely make you a more effective leader. 00:18:23.565 --> 00:18:26.365 Matt Abrahams: It boils down to connection and other-focus. 00:18:26.606 --> 00:18:28.085 Well, thank you, Brian. 00:18:28.565 --> 00:18:30.705 An incredibly rich conversation. 00:18:30.875 --> 00:18:35.055 It's about introspection, it's about invitation and empathy and connection. 00:18:35.325 --> 00:18:39.315 And it is through that that we build ourselves and the stories 00:18:39.315 --> 00:18:40.415 that we work with others. 00:18:40.505 --> 00:18:43.765 So it's about communication internally and externally. 00:18:44.085 --> 00:18:44.605 Thank you. 00:18:46.678 --> 00:18:48.628 Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think 00:18:48.628 --> 00:18:50.358 Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:18:50.707 --> 00:18:56.377 To learn more from Brian, please listen to episodes 23, 84, and 142. 00:18:56.378 --> 00:18:59.237 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Alex McCarthy, 00:18:59.428 --> 00:19:02.038 Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:19:02.288 --> 00:19:06.308 Our music is from Floyd Wonder with special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:19:06.727 --> 00:19:09.877 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:19:10.148 --> 00:19:12.288 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:19:12.477 --> 00:19:15.817 Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:19:16.007 --> 00:19:20.078 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep-dive videos, English language 00:19:20.078 --> 00:19:22.118 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:19:22.518 --> 00:19:26.037 Please consider joining Think Fast, Talk Smart's learning community 00:19:26.037 --> 00:19:28.917 at fastersmarter.io/learning. 00:19:29.388 --> 00:19:33.348 You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, an AI 00:19:33.397 --> 00:19:35.827 coach, and book club opportunities. 00:19:35.947 --> 00:19:41.447 Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning to become part of our Think Fast, 00:19:41.587 --> 00:19:43.417 Talk Smart learning community.