The Practitioner-Scholar: The PennCLO Podcast

What if uncertainty isn’t the problem—but the point?

In this episode of the PennCLO Podcast, Dr. Jennifer Neumaier sits down with Penn CLO doctoral alum Dr. Lucrecia Grandolini about her chapter on leading through uncertainty from the book Leaders as Architects: Designing Organizations for Connection and Resilience, co-edited by Dr. Sharon Ravitch (University of Pennsylvania Graduate School of Education) and Dr. Ragu Krishnamoorthy, Director of the Penn CLO program. 

Drawing on her global experience across financial services, consulting, and clinical psychology, Lucrecia challenges the traditional “plan–predict–control” model of leadership—and offers a compelling alternative.

Together, they unpack:
  • Why uncertainty is both deeply human—and deeply misunderstood
  • The hidden cost of control: how it erodes trust and psychological safety
  • The “living iceberg” metaphor—and what leaders miss beneath the surface
  • What uncertainty-friendly organizations actually look like in practice
  • Four essential leadership practices for thriving in complexity
This conversation is a powerful invitation to stop trying to eliminate uncertainty—and start designing for it.

Creators and Guests

Producer
Dr. Jennifer Neumaier, Ed.D., M.Ed., ACC
Guest
Dr. Lucrecia Grandolini
Producer
Dr. Raghu Krishnamoorthy
Dr. Raghu Krishnamoorthy is a scholar-practitioner whose 40-year career spans corporate HR leadership and doctoral education. From 2022 to 2026 he was Senior Fellow and Director of the University of Pennsylvania's Chief Learning Officer (PennCLO) doctoral program. There he shaped the curriculum, led faculty and admissions, and chaired dissertations on leadership, learning, and the future of work. He has also taught at Wharton and been guest faculty at Harvard Business School, MIT Sloan, Yale, and Columbia. Before moving into academia, Raghu spent 25 years at General Electric, with HR roles in India, Hong Kong, London, and the United States. He was CHRO of GE Aviation, Chief Talent and Learning Officer at Crotonville, GE's leadership institute, and CHRO of GE Healthcare. He then became Chief Human Resources Officer of GE, leading HR for a $120 billion company with an HR organization of 4,000 people. Earlier in his career he held HR roles at American Express Bank, Modi-Xerox, and Escorts in India. His research looks at the future of work, the workplace, and the worker. His doctoral dissertation, on how leader behaviors affect employee engagement in virtual work, was awarded distinction, and his research won the Academy of Business Research's Best Paper Award in 2020. He writes often for Harvard Business Review and co-edited Leaders as Architects of Change (Routledge, 2026) with Sharon Ravitch. Raghu has advised and consulted with several organizations, including Boeing, Kraft Heinz, Tech Mahindra, Takeda, and the Tata Group. He sits on the board of IIM Ahmedabad's Ashank Desai Center for Learning and Organizational Development. He holds an Ed.D. and M.S.Ed. from Penn and an MBA from IIM Ahmedabad and was a Hubert H. Humphrey Fellow under the Fulbright program.

What is The Practitioner-Scholar: The PennCLO Podcast?

Welcome to "The Practitioner-Scholar: The PennCLO Podcast," the flagship production of the renowned Penn Chief Learning Officer Executive Doctoral Program at the University of Pennsylvania. Immerse yourself in a curated blend of scholarly insights and industry expertise, offering a profound exploration of organizational learning and leadership. Unveiling strategies and success indicators crucial in today's dynamic landscape, this podcast is a testament to the distinctive approach fostered by our program.

Join us on a transformative journey through the multifaceted world of leadership, where practitioner-scholar approaches shine as a beacon of excellence. As we spotlight luminaries within our esteemed student, faculty, and alumni circles, "The Practitioner-Scholar" podcast becomes a unique channel for intellectual engagement and actionable takeaways. For prospective students, seasoned executives, and dedicated scholar-practitioners alike, this platform is your exclusive access to the extraordinary content emanating from the heart of the PennCLO Executive Doctoral Program.

Subscribe now to tailor your learning journey and be part of the vibrant community shaping the future of leadership.

To learn more about the Penn Chief Learning Officer, Doctor of Education (Ed.D.) program, visit the Penn GSE website.