FAITH: These days, I feel like sometimes the word self-regulation has become a dirty word.

MELODY: What? Ok?

FAITH: Okay, so yeah, walk with me on this. We've got new compassionate tools, but sometimes it feels like we're still using them with the old impatient mindset. We've just swapped out like one form of judgement for another. So we've turned getting regulated into a performance metric, right? Are you following me?

MELODY: I think I need a little bit of example because to me it's a good... Anyway, this is Life in the Grey, a Mums At The Table podcast where we explore the psychological factors that shape our relationships, either as a parent, a partner or a peer. I'm Melody and I work in the parenting arena through Mums at the Table to empower and engage mums. And you’re Faith and what do you do?

FAITH: I create content that, well, hopefully empowers people also and helps them to get curious about themselves and the world around them so that we can become a more compassionate and, you know, helpful place.

MELODY: And on the topic of compassionate, so how is it then a dirty word? Because it's kind of strange because we're recognising that we need to have self-regulation, we're recognising that we need co-regulation. So that's a good thing, right? How is it a dirty word?

FAITH: You brought up a very good point because it is supposed to be a good thing. But I think maybe we track back a little bit to defining self-regulation, co-regulation, because I've realised that not everybody has the same understanding of what that word means. There's what I call the dirty word version, right? Where self-regulation is about control. It's about how do I stop the feeling, control it, make it go away. It's about making our feelings more appropriate or convenient for others. And then there's the self-regulation that you and I tend to use, right? And it's the science-backed version, the one that we're trying to practice. And there's a difference because it's not about control, it's about capacity. Expanding the capacity to be with the feeling, to be with the anger, the grief, the panic, without being completely swept away, hijacked, maybe even needing to numb it.

MELODY: It's just about having to be able to have that feeling, to be able to hold those feelings, but still be able to cope and function healthily, without injury to yourself or someone else, and in a socially acceptable form, I suppose. But yeah, it's interesting. So what you're saying is that there seems to be instances out there, and I suppose I can fall guilty about it as well. I guess maybe what you're trying to say is that we're giving it a timeline. So it's like, okay, so I've recognised your feeling, I know how you're feeling, so now it's time to stop it. Is that what you're saying?

FAITH: Yes, exactly. Where we say, hey, I've done the thing where I've named your...like you said, I validated it, I've named it, I've given you space for it. So why aren't you fixed? Why are you still feeling upset? Why are you still feeling angry? You should be done with it right now. The anger should feel seen. And so once it's seen, it should be done with, right? It should go back into the background and not be controlling you to a certain extent. And then we get frustrated.

MELODY: Yes. And you know what? To a certain extent, right? Like I agree in the compassionate definition of self-regulation, right? But now that we're talking about this, I'm like, I've been guilty of the other one as well. Particularly, not so much with myself. Maybe I'm kinder to myself. But it's more towards...like I'm thinking about my experiences with my son, right? And he gets upset, he gets angry, he gets whatever it is. And so I'm like, okay, you're frustrated, you're this, you're that. I do know that occasionally, and I know it's not great, but I have to admit that. I do know that occasionally I go, well, yes, you're frustrated, but let's move on.

FAITH: If someone is an acquaintance, I will probably have a lot more capacity to say, hey, you feel you and I can be here for you, but it doesn't really affect me because I can go home. But it's completely different if you are my home. And then now how you're feeling is affecting everything about me too. And that's why it's complicated, which is why I wanted to talk about it because I struggle with it too. I struggle with the balance between the outcome that I want and hope and wish for this person that is also very connected to me to stay in these difficult, uncomfortable emotions, because then I am also feeling these difficult, uncomfortable emotions.

MELODY: You know what, you just hit the nail on the head, because this is actually exactly what I've been thinking when you're saying all this, right? Because what you're saying seems to be the fact that we are therefore trying to force people to regulate or someone is trying to force us to regulate. So co-regulation isn't just identifying the feeling, right? It's about sitting with it. But they've missed the sitting with it step. And the reason why they've missed the sitting with it step is because they are uncomfortable. I mean, okay, this is a generalisation and this is an assumption. It may not be entirely true, but this is my theory, okay? When they are uncomfortable with sitting with a feeling for you, it's not because they want you to move on to a better place. Yes, that is true. But the reason, the main reason for it, I reckon, is also because they are uncomfortable with the feelings themselves. So whatever it is, whatever this regulation that you are experiencing is actually triggering them. And the reason why it's triggering them is because they haven't learned to hold those feelings themselves. And so if they haven't learned to hold those feelings for themselves, how can you expect them to give you the leeway to hold those feelings for yourself?

FAITH: We learn to be safe in our emotions by first feeling safe with someone else while we're emotional. But when we don't feel safe with that person, when we feel pressured, when we feel even, I would say, shamed into trying to get out of these emotions, then we're missing that very crucial aspect of co-regulation, which is safety. So then it's not co-regulation anymore. It's just something else.

MELODY: The problem is that society as a whole, we are very time-based, correct? I mean, people are getting busier than before. We all have different schedules to adhere to. And so everything needs to run on a certain time. The problem with feelings is that they don't have a proper timeline. And because of that, because feelings, I mean, the thing is, and the reality is, okay, the duration is different for different people for certain feelings. But the reality is, is that even if it's the same feeling, it can still be different for the same person. Because there is still a whole lot of history, a whole lot of context that comes into creating that feeling. So feelings don't have a timeline. And as such, for us to become regulated again, there is no timeline for that. And that, I think, frustrates a lot of people. Frustrates me because I've got things to do. I've got dishes to do. I've got laundry to wash. I've got people to see.

FAITH: What I've learned is that if I am outcome-driven, then I have to question my outcome. What is the outcome that I want here? Is the outcome for them to stop feeling this way? Or is the outcome for me to just say, I can be present? Because that's all I can control.

MELODY: But yet, at the same time though, there is this other thing, right? Because, you know, when people get upset, get sad, get depressed, whatever it is, people can spiral. And so if you are there and you're just recognising, yes, this is frustrating for you. Yes, you are sad. Yes, this is a bad situation. Yes, yes, yes. Are you then helping them, causing them to spiral further? Like, when do you step in and go, hey, it's time to pick yourself up. It's time to, you know, move on. Like, it's difficult to recognise, right?

FAITH: We often conflate emotions with behaviour. So it can feel like sometimes when we validate someone's emotions, we are co-signing off on the behaviour.

MELODY: So for me, I'm mostly in the parenting arena, right? And so this is slightly different when you're dealing with adults versus dealing with kids. And I guess the main thing that I've learned through co-regulation with children is the fact that the message that you want to send is that your big feelings are fine. There is nothing wrong with your big feelings. And I can hold them. But yet at the same time, there is a need to draw the boundary. As you said, you know, your big feelings are fine. But how we deal with those big feelings means we don't hit someone. We don't hurt ourselves. And so that's what we tell a kid because, you know, they need direct information and they need to have that kind of boundaries. And perhaps it's about learning in a way in which we can do that co-regulation with an adult, but yet also helping them recognise the boundaries that, you know, don't cause injury. No matter what, your feelings are fine, but we just don't cause injury. And whether you tell that adult the boundary or not, that will have to depend, I guess.

FAITH: It will have to depend, right, on a lot of factors. It's not just co-regulating with another adult, co-regulating with ourselves. A lot of times, the spiral happens when we don't feel seen, when we have to feel like we're shouting into the void, when we feel we're not heard. And I say this coming from my own personal experience that recently I tried something and I felt like there was a breakthrough for me where I actually apologised to my inner child. I apologised and I said, wow, I understand now why you had to feel like you're screaming into the void. Because I wasn't listening to you and I was trying to make you stop and shut down. And the more I tried to make you stop and shut down, the more you felt unseen and unheard. And then you had to scream even louder. No wonder you felt that way. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And I want to hear you now. I want to really hear you. And the interesting thing is, and I'm not saying this for everybody, but for myself, when I said that to myself, I could feel that inner child relax. It's like, okay, you get it. You get it. Now I don't have to fight to be heard. You get it. And once my inner child could feel like, oh, you get it. Now, instead of spending the energy trying to be heard, I could ask my inner child, say, okay, so how do we feel right now? Do we feel okay to try X or Y? And then I could feel myself say, maybe not yet, but I could try this. Okay, good. Okay, good. We don't want to try X and Y, but we could try A. Great. Let's try A. I'm really excited. Thank you for trying A. Awesome. Let's do that. Does this make sense?

MELODY: It makes perfect sense. I think what you just said about the fact that the spiral happens when we are not being heard, that just kind of, bing, you can add in a light bulb moment, because it's true. I've seen it with my son, and I've seen it with myself as well. Like with my son, he's upset. He's everything else. And then you can actually physically see when he realises someone understands him, he physically, visibly relaxes. It doesn't mean that he's not still upset, but he will go [nodding] and it will still keep going. But yes, you can actually see it. And the second one is in myself. It's like, I'm sure people can relate to it the number of times when they go, so it's not just me? So when you just say, it's not just me, like just for anyone listening to it, think back to the time when you go, so it's not just me? I'm so glad it's not just me. And just think about the feelings that that has given you. It doesn't stop the bad feelings that you have, but yet it creates some kind of peace.

FAITH: And you're right. Hmm. And the goal, I think, isn't about never feeling the quote, unquote, mad, bad, sad feelings and only feeling glad feelings. But like we said earlier, the goal is to be able to find a space, make the space for us to be able to have the capacity to embrace the spectrum of lived feelings, right? We're alive and we are going to have a whole spectrum of feelings. Let's find the capacity, expand our capacity to be able to hold space for both. You just shared with me a very interesting talk that I watched online and I loved how the speaker said, we hold space for the hope and the hurt, the promise and the pain, the grief and the gratitude. And sometimes these two ends of the quote, unquote, spectrum, they happen at the same time. I can feel very upset and it's so unfair and also still say, you know, I know why they did that. I can see why they did that. It's still not right, but I can still see why they did that and I can hold space for both. And that suddenly, when I can have the capacity to do that, when I tapped into the capacity to do that, I found myself coming out of a flooded state. 

I like to use the word flooded, like when I'm overwhelmed, everything is on me, right? I found a way to like, oh, swim out of there a lot easier. If not easier, at least quicker. And for me, it's really recognising also that capacity is not the same as capability because we are all capable of compassion, of understanding, but also not always having the capacity to. And when I can give that to myself and when I can say, oh, I know I'm capable of being kinder, of being more understanding, but today I lack the capacity to, and so I messed up, but I'm still capable of it. So let's see what I can do about expanding the capacity so that I can have repair, right? I suddenly find myself being able to extend that to other people and say, oh, maybe it wasn't about the incapability, but the incapacity. Maybe they had a bad day today. Rather than turning it into something that's about their personality, they're an impatient person. It's like, oh, maybe today they really had too much on their plate. So, hey, let's move on. It doesn't make what happened right, but understanding it helps me to move out of staying stuck in this mad, bad, sad feelings.

MELODY: I guess in summary as well is the fact that these mad, bad, sad feelings scare us, but we need to be able to trust that it will pass and that nothing destructive will come out of it if it's allowed to be aired.

FAITH: Even if the feelings that I feel sometimes will lead me to make poor decisions, it also means that there is opportunity, hopefully, for repair. 

Did any of this hit home with you or maybe some parts of it was like, oh, they are totally off the mark. I need to let them know. Well, you know what? Let us know. Let us know. You can find us on our socials at Mums At The Table or through email at hello@mumsatthetable.com. Thank you so much for listening and we’ll see you next month!