Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Have you ever felt that people might doubt that you can do your job? Or even that you maybe found out? Or perhaps you've seen posts about imposter syndrome and wondered about it or even being a bit skeptical? Well, this week on We Not Me, we're talking to Clmp Pickering, who's a coach and specialist in imposter syndrome, so we can get to the bottom of this topic and work out what we can do for ourselves and others who may suffer from it.
[00:00:24] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.
[00:00:36] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. Well, we're both away next week.
[00:00:38] Dan: We are indeed.
[00:00:40] Pia: We've got out of our little virtual kingdoms and we're going out to, actually meet people, touch them.
[00:00:44] Dan: And I have to say, as, you know, as we talked about it a few times, I love the working from home thing because I did so much traveling before it sort of slightly killed me. And I've really enjoyed being around the family more. But I know when I get out, I need it. It's just refreshing and it fills, it fills your cup. So I'm really looking forward to it.
[00:01:03] Pia: Well Watch out. The Business of Software conference, dan
[00:01:07] Dan: conference. Exactly. Hammond is, Hammond is coming. Exactly. Exactly. Um, so we have a great topic today, Pia. One that I've, I must admit, I've been one of the people who's been a little bit, I found myself occasionally being slightly skeptical of occasionally, um, which is imposter syndrome.
[00:01:22] Pia: Oh, no, I've, I've had that, I've definitely had that.
[00:01:25] Dan: Yeah. Do you just waft seeing when you see it, but I think our guest today is really going to just pinpoint the, the issue. Have you, have you, where have you seen this in your, in your world?
[00:01:37] Pia: You know, about nearly a quarter of a century ago, I arrived in Australia, fresh, uh, and straight out of school. So, and, and landed this, my first role in a leadership consultancy with grownups. And um, that. was a, that was a stress I'd never actually managed before, of being new in a role and having zero experience.
[00:01:59] And I'll never forget, I've just had this complete image of being with a, a potential client going down the escalators in Martin Place in Sydney. And he asked me the question that I just hoped no one was ever gonna ask me. And these are the first few months of me sort of, you know, basically my, my coaching from, uh, from my boss. Well just, just fake it. An ex-army guy. Just fake it. Un until you make it. So that was the coaching Who. So he answered the question I hated, which was so, um, and he was an investment banker. Yeah, he was absolutely booted and
[00:02:35] Dan: Oh, the works. Yeah.
[00:02:37] Pia: So tell me about your track record in this role. And I thought, oh my God. And I just had this as we went down the escalator, my stomach was just,
[00:02:47] Dan: Your, your heart was going, was dropping as well. Yeah.
[00:02:50] Pia: And I used to have in those days this sort of like, because I taught sport and I've been a PE teacher, I had this image, they could see the whistle around my neck as we were talking and I.
[00:03:02] Dan: that's So
[00:03:03] Pia: used to think, oh my God, you've seen it, you've, I've still got it on what's happened.
[00:03:08] Dan: I thought for a minute, Pia, when he said track record, you were going to go back to those days and say, well, I can do 200 meters in about 25 seconds.
[00:03:15] Pia: under 18 netball. We won, we won the trophy. But you know, so I remember thinking, gosh, I had just a very meager thin bit of experience to that date. So, and I just, you know, and I don't believe in bullshitting and lying. so so you've, so how do you hold onto your values of being true, but, but at the same time? It was the worst answer that he wanted to hear, and I certainly wanted to have to tell him that I had about, you know, six and a half minutes of experience. So it wasn't, wasn't, great.
[00:03:47] Dan: But I bet that the escalators felt two
[00:03:50] Pia: I think I, I think I found something else. Oh, look over there. Just try and distract the conversation.
[00:03:55] Dan: old, yeah. Just Miranda him into submission.
[00:03:58] Pia: anything. Just try and get yourself outta that.
[00:04:00] Dan: think, uh, as, uh, I think a lot of us can relate to that, but that is a, I love the whistle story. But, um, but our guest today, Clem Pickering, has a, a, a great history in corporate, in the corporate world. He's now a, uh, coach and he specializes in this area of imposter syndrome. And of course this affects many of us and they're among us. So let's go over there and get Clem to dive into this fascinating subject.
[00:04:28] Pia: And a really warm. Welcome to you, Clem. Lovely to have you on the show.
[00:04:31] Clem: Thanks. Pia. Yes, uh, lovely to be here. Yeah, thank you very much for the invite.
[00:04:34] Pia: Um, uh, we, um, we've got a good topic here, imposter syndrome. We've never, ever, none of us have, have experienced that all supremely confident.
[00:04:44] Clem: Absolutely, yes.
[00:04:45] Pia: Yep. Yep. so before we do that, well let, let, let's, let's test your powers of confidence. Let's put you in the, in the hot, in the hot room with Mr. Hammond and the starter, the starter cards.
[00:04:58] Dan: So I am shuffling the cards and I am cutting the deck. I actually wonder sometimes if the listener thinks this is all fake, but I actually do have genuine cards here.
[00:05:08] Pia: Yeah. He's, he's practicing his croupier skills.
[00:05:10] Dan: Yeah. Here is a nice, easy one. I relax by.
[00:05:15] Clem: I relax by, um, walking the dog. Yeah, walking the dog is, um, a bit of head space. Just a chance to get outside. Can't can't lie though. It's very muddy round where I live at the moment. So, um, not particularly relaxing, relaxing when you get back and you have to clean the dog down in yourself, et cetera. So.
[00:05:35] Dan: Yes. Yes, indeed.
[00:05:37] Pia: And, and what type of dog do you walk?
[00:05:39] Clem: Uh, I have an Irish terrier. You don't see that many of them. There are a fairly large terrier for, for terriers, but, uh, full of character. And you might hear barking at some point during this podcast. He's, he's a bit of a barker, I've got to say.
[00:05:52] Pia: We do have quite a few animals joining us.
[00:05:54] Dan: We do. We do, yes, particularly in Pia's menagerie. Um, but the, yeah, Clem, now this sounds a bit, uh, strange, but I heard a thing on the radio about Irish Terriers last week.
[00:06:05] Pia: Nothing to do with politicians.
[00:06:07] Dan: No, no. And apparently they, it's a, it's a sort of diminishing breed and it's sort of heading, heading. So you, you are a rare specimen.
[00:06:16] Clem: Yeah, I mean, we have met, uh, I've occasionally met Irish areas, but, um, other Irish areas that is, uh, out and about, but yeah, no, they're not certainly, they're certainly not common. So yeah, we had to travel, had about a four hour drive to go and pick him up when we first, first got many years ago.
[00:06:31] Dan: they were speaking very highly of them. So, but tell me, tell us a little bit about their owner. Tell us a bit about Clem. What's your bio in a
[00:06:39] Pia: Who has imposter syndrome? You or the dog?
[00:06:42] Clem: Well, yes or no. I won't talk about the dog. Okay, let me talk about me a little bit. Yeah, so my background is in technology. So I worked for many years for one of the credit reference agencies in the UK, uh, initially as a software engineer, and then kind of worked my way up to kind of leadership roles, uh, in the technology space. So kind of head of software engineering, uh, head of architecture, head of testing. I did a whole range of those kind of head of roles. Uh, and that was, yeah, a great company to work for. Um, I then moved into the world of tech consultancy, uh, and went to work at a small startup, as it was at the time, called Infinity Works, uh, based in Leeds, but with other offices around the country. Um, and really, yeah, worked on clients kind of helping them with technology challenges, but equally in terms of growing, uh, Infiniti works as a consultancy and again, got opportunity to kind of take, uh, leadership roles there. They were acquired by Accenture in 2021. Uh, and I've then worked at Accenture for a couple of years, uh, heading up the kind of career entry schemes for all of the kind of people entering the world of technology for the first time at the start of their career. Uh, and then most recently about, um, last year now I set up independently, so I'm now, uh, an independent coach and consultant.
[00:08:02] So what I do really on a day-to-day basis is I support leaders within the technology world kind of, uh, help them improve their people skills or increase their impact in whatever role, uh, they happen to be doing.
[00:08:15] Pia: And let's, um, let's dive into it. I, I've, so let's get into the topic of imposter syndrome. So let's first get a baseline definition because we might have different versions of it. And then tell us a little bit around your research, your understanding of why it happens and what the impact is for us in the workplace.
[00:08:37] Clem: Okay. Um, cool. So a definition, there's a couple of definitions that I usually give, so I'll give a sort of potted one first and then delve into it a little bit more. Um, so imposter syndrome is a sort of psychological pattern in which people doubt their accomplishments, um, and have this kind of persistent, yet often internalized fear of being exposed as a fraud.
[00:09:00] However, to, to kind of delve a little bit deeper, there's also kind of three main parts to that. So to kind of break it apart a little bit more, there are three kind of key components of imposter syndrome. Firstly, um, externalizing accomplishments. So that kind of sense of, it's not due to my own skill and competence that I've achieved what I've achieved. There's always some other reason. I was in the right place at the right time. It was luck. Uh, or maybe people just like me and so they give me opportunities, but they don't really think I'm very good.
[00:09:29] The second part is then feeling like you're fooling people. So it's this sense that somehow you've managed to trick everybody into thinking that you are more talented or more intelligent, or more capable than you actually believe you are. And for years, you've just been managing to fool everybody.
[00:09:47] And then the final part, the third part to this, uh, kind of definition is the fear of being found out. So it's that sense of at any minute you could be exposed as a fraud. Uh, you know, when we're in offices, somebody walks over with a cardboard box and goes, we figured you out, Clem. You dunno what you're talking about. Get outta the building.
[00:10:07] Pia: And how, how pervasive are these feelings? Like, are they just situational, you know, oh my God, I've gotta do a presentation and, and they're gonna find me out, find out that I actually dunno what I'm talking about? Or is it, is it, for some people they carry this for, for their entire career?
[00:10:23] Clem: Yeah, I mean I think obviously it varies. It is a sliding scale and you're absolutely right. There are certain events, life events or just events within work that may kind of cause it to spike. So presentation one is a really. A really kind of common one. Equally changing a new job or taking on a new role. Those are kind of gonna be things that really cause these sort of feelings to spike. Um, but for some people I think it is pretty pervasive. It's something that can be there in the background for a large part of their career. And in, in the most extreme cases, it can kind of cause people to constantly keep changing jobs to try and avoid being found out, for example, or holding themselves back from what they're really capable of. So that kind of sense of flying under the radar, playing it small, is again a sort of coping mechanism that people use for imposter syndrome so that they don't, you know, to, to what they think is put themselves in a position where they are going to be found out. If I keep quiet, if I keep kind of hidden, people won't find out.
[00:11:25] Dan: Hey, Clem, just a tangential question before we dive even bit, even deeper. What got you in interested in this topic?
[00:11:32] Clem: So there's a couple of, couple of things I always kind of cite around this. So I think I first found out about imposter syndrome just as a term, at a conference I was at. I think whoever was on stage at the time, like, to be totally honest, I can't remember the full part of the talk, but they mentioned imposter syndrome and talked a little bit about it. And that made me think, oh, not come across that before, but that's feels somewhat familiar.
[00:11:57] There was also a particular event, which was speaking at a big conference in Lithuania that always kind of resonates in a sense that, I'd given this talk for this conference in Lithuania. The, the company I used to work at had an office out there, which was why I was out there on a regular basis. I was asked to speak at a conference. I gave a talk, which at the time I thought had gone really well. You know, I had a bit of a, a kind of high finishing the talk. But then as I left the event later in the evening. I just started to get this terrible kind of feeling of that was a complete disaster. I do not know, uh, what, what I was talking about. Everybody probably hated me. Uh, actually what on earth do I know about this topic?
[00:12:42] Um, and that's a sort of, a moment that all sticks in my head where I kind of thought, well, hang on, this is imposter syndrome. And that sort of sense of um, feeling like I'm a fraud and like I fooled people, kind of, yeah, tends, tends to come back at various points in my career until this stage, typically when I'm in sort of new situations.
[00:13:01] Dan: Well, you're doing very well being on a podcast so far, Clem, I have to say, if you haven't got any sense of it, do you move through? You're doing, doing a brilliant job,
[00:13:10] Pia: And how did you, how did you distinguish imposter syndrome from self-doubt? Because, I mean, that could have been just a case of, like, lack of confidence, lack of experience.
[00:13:22] Clem: Yeah. Uh, and that's a really kind of common question linked to imposter syndrome, yeah. And they're both kind of natural sort of feelings to fail. I think that's the thing. It's it. Um, imposter syndrome is not some sort of special medical condition or anything like that. It's not defined in any kind of, you know, mental health kind of index or, or kind of book kind of talking about it. Um, but really it's the kind of, it's this feeling of feeling like a fraud and that you're potentially gonna be exposed that sort of differentiates it from self-doubt.
[00:13:53] So as you say, sort of self-doubt, um, in situations like presentations starting a new job, very common. It's where it becomes that more persistent, uh, feeling. And that it and that sense that it's linked to actually, you don't really feel that you are competent. So while you don't feel confident in sort of self-doubt terms in certain situations, it's the sort of sense that I don't actually believe I've got the skills and therefore I'm sort of fooling, fooling people. That's where it sort of becomes more, strays into the imposter disorder syndrome territory.
[00:14:27] Dan: And Clem, does it have any link to competence? So, uh, the reason I'm asking that question is I know that the, the research behind 360 degree assessments shows that people who underrate themselves tend to be the high performers. So they, and there's some sense in that, isn't it? They constantly sort of learning and testing themselves. Where does, where does imposter syndrome sit in that? Do you find a lot of people who are actually, actually quite high performers have this and?
[00:14:54] Clem: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so imposter syndrome really is not, um, you know, it, the people aren't real imposters. Uh, if you were a real imposter and you weren't really very good, then that's a, that's obviously a different thing. Um, so imposter syndrome is frequently associated with people who are high performing. Um, you know, so they are really good at their job, despite believing that they're not. And actually in, in some senses, um, another coping mechanism that people frequently fall back on, particularly if they've got a kind of perfectionist trait, uh, of imposter syndrome, is they, they kind of overwork. So they put in this huge amount of effort to perform really well, perhaps way beyond what's expected and what's needed. Um, but that further kind of exacerbates the, um, the feeling. But then also it does mean they're high performing.
[00:15:45] So, yeah. Uh, to kind of answer your question, lots of high performing people can feel and suffer from sort of imposter syndrome feelings. It's not directly linked to that kind of competence.
[00:15:57] Dan: And how do, what's the gender split here?
[00:16:00] Clem: Yeah. So, um, the initial kind of sort of study or what, where the term actually came from, um, was back in the seventies from, uh, a couple of people working in the States, Dr. Pauline Clance and Dr. Suzanne Imes, and they did a study back in 1978 on imposter syndrome or rather, actually important to point out, they called it the imposter phenomenon. And the initial study focused on 150 high achieving women. Um, and so the study was specifically based around women. Uh, and that was based on, Dr. Clance and Dr. Imes's kind of observations that it was frequently high performing women that seem to report feeling like imposters.
[00:16:42] Uh, again, there's another key piece of, uh, work that I always refer to. Dr. Valerie Young wrote a book in, uh, 2011 called The Secret Thoughts of Successful Women. So again, a study or a book focused on, uh, the imposter phenomenon in women. And so, yeah, for for many years it was very much thought of as a gender specific issue that affected women, uh, much more than men. Um, and indeed actually there's been loads of studies done since then, and some of those have proved that out, they've backed that up.
[00:17:13] So 33 studies that were done in kind of recent times, uh, which looked at gender specifically in imposter syndrome. 16 of those studies did actually find that imposter syndrome was more prevalent in women than it was in men. Um, however, 17 of the studies actually found no difference. so in terms of a gender issue, yes, I think absolutely if you are, uh, a woman and with, uh, a woman, sorry, and with other factors at play, you know, the fact that it's still, uh, often a male dominated society that can exacerbate imposter syndrome. But undoubtedly it does affect men as well. Uh, and actually. Um, Valerie Young has kind of updated a lot of her thinking and research to sort of say, yeah, um, men can equally be affected as much as, as women in certain situations.
[00:18:00] Pia: I think there's gonna be a lot of people who are listening now going, that's me, that's me. I have that. so what's some of the strategies and, and ways to mitigate it? And maybe part of it is capturing when you realize you're going into that spiral of thinking that doesn't necessarily help. And it's almost like you do a pile on on yourself, isn't it? To, to be negative and, and that's not necessarily helpful.
[00:18:23] Clem: Again, actually as I, as I've, over the last sort of few years as I've kind of moved more into the coaching space, I've obviously had various clients who had sort of imposter syndrome type feelings and so supporting them to kind of work with that to sort of settle, settle your imposter is, is what I always refer to it as. I don't think it's imposs, it's possible to kind of completely eliminate it, but to, to sort of settle your imposter feelings and kind of quieten them down is ultimately the goal.
[00:18:52] And actually, I also, I went on a, a course at the beginning of 2023 if I remember rightly, um, with Dr. Valerie Young, who's one of the sort of leading authorities on imposter syndrome. And that was specifically to kind of build coaching skills around helping people with imposter syndrome. So to kind of answer your question more specifically, there's, there's kind of three parts, I think, to kind of helping manage imposter syndrome.
[00:19:18] Firstly is kind of trying to normalize it. So talking about it, um, which is obviously quite a scary thing to do with for certain people in certain situations. But the more we can kind of build work cultures where it's accepted, it's encouraged to kind of talk about what's, what people are kind of feeling and, um, and what they're struggling with at the moment, sort of normalizing, uh, imposter syndrome is a really important kind of first step to realize you're not alone, lots of people feel like this, and actually also remembering that there's context which kind of feeds in.
[00:19:55] So we're often, we kind of personalize it. We think it must be me, I'm the person that doesn't have any skills. But actually thinking about the context you might find yourself in and how that plays in, uh, is, is really important too. And again, it can just be helpful to have somebody else, uh, to talk to when you kind of do that.
[00:20:14] The second step is then to start to sort of try and reframe things. So reframing, very coaching sounding kind of term, but ultimately it just sort of means trying to restructure or change your thoughts around how you think about things. So for example, with imposter syndrome, you know, you might be thinking, um, I'm just no good at whatever it is you, you think you should be doing. And obviously that's a pretty negative thought, and if you just keep repeating that, you, the more and more you start to believe it.
[00:20:43] Thinking actually to reframe that, you could think about it as, you know, I will continue to get better with practice. Or, you know, there's always experience and expertise that comes with practice. So thinking about, uh, reframing that situation so that it's a much more positive and supportive thought. And ultimately that's the difference between people who feel like imposters and those who don't, is that they are thinking different things. Those people that feel like imposters are being very hard on themselves, uh, while those other people are perhaps just much more confident in their thinking.
[00:21:18] The final part then is, is just to kind of keep going regardless. Uh, and again, this kind of comes from Dr. Valerie Young. So it is almost that sort of sense of realizing that everybody feels unconfident, and that self-doubt, uh, and feels like a fraud at times, but just to kind of keep moving through it. Fake it till you make it is obviously a very popular, uh, expression. Doesn't tend to go down well with people who, uh, feel like imposters, 'cause they already feel like they're a fake though. So, perhaps a better, a better way of putting it is like acting as if you believed it were true.
[00:21:52] So, um, believe that you are an excellent speaker or a great consultant, or you really have something to bring in this situation and then act as if you did believe that was true. And that sense of just pushing through and keeping going, uh, again, can be a really kind of positive way of, of, of helping people, uh, settled the, the feeling.
[00:22:13] Dan: That sounds really pragmatic. So if we think about teams, people, you know, you've got people, and of course this is a great example of how teams can be supportive, but presumably people with imposter syndrome are, it's the sort of imagined feelings of that team that are probably pressing in on them. So it's got a sort of another edge, hasn't it? But how can groups of people, teams, sort of work on this together, how can they apply those three ideas practically to, to, to help people through?
[00:22:39] Clem: so in terms of the normalizing, I think that is the sort of speaking about it openly, and certainly something that I was always keen to do and hence again, really keen to sort of do podcasts like this is just to talk about it and share my own personal experiences.
[00:22:52] So myself and a colleague used to regularly do a talk, um, on imposter syndrome, both for Infinity Works as a, as a tech consultancy, but also for our clients and basically anybody that would listen, uh, to sort of just to, to raise the topic, educate people a little bit more on it, so that it surfaced it, you got it out into the open, and then it became easier in the kind of team context you were talking about for people to say, oh God, I feel like my imposter syndrome's really spiking at the moment. I've got to admit, I totally feel like a fraud in this situation. And just being able to do that and have that as an open conversation with your teammates, can go a huge way to sort of helping settle it.
[00:23:36] In terms of things like the reframing I talked about again, um, any sort of feedback sort of sessions or, or team sessions, like if you're working in technology, things like retrospectives or just team kind of get togethers the opportunity to kind of, both celebrate what people have done and and value their contribution to the team is, can be really beneficial. But equally to spot when people are perhaps, if they're vocalizing it, being negative about what they contributed, you know, ah, yeah, it wasn't really much or it was more such and such did that. Actually calling that out and saying, well, no, actually that was super valuable what you did there. I really valued that, that's made a huge difference to our products or whatever it is we're building. Those kind of things again, can kind of build that feeling that it is okay not to know everything, but equally to sort of celebrate when things go well.
[00:24:28] Dan: One thought that occurs to me is that the, you said that the, one of the big differences between just normal self-doubt and imposter syndrome is this fear of being found out. That, that's quite an interesting, as a, it's sort of dwelling in my mind a little bit. It is sort of, um, well you might call an unhealthy paranoia, I suppose. And I guess that that teams can help each other with that as well, that, that, that all of those activities just taught will actually could work to eliminate that if the, if the communication is kept open.
[00:24:57] Clem: Yeah, exactly. And I think again, it's, um, this is where, you know, we start to sort of overlap into sort of wider cultural things and maybe things like the topic of psychological safety as well. That, you know, if, if a team feels like a safe, supportive environment where people can share ideas or share concerns or share their worries openly, uh, and feel like they're gonna be supported by their team and not kind of humiliated in some way, then yeah, that, that can be a much more positive environment to kind of help eliminate those feelings of thinking that you're, you're gonna be exposed as a fraud.
[00:25:36] Actually being able to say, oh, you know what? I don't know particularly a lot about this thing that we're about to embark on, or, oh, I think I've made a bit of a mess of this. You know, can I get a bit of help? Or, um, that kind of thing, that's just a great environment for a team full stop. But of course it's gonna also help anybody who is feeling imposter feelings as well in that, in that situation.
[00:25:58] So, yeah, very much. I think the more we can encourage those supportive, human kind of working conditions and, and team environments, the better.
[00:26:06] Pia: So it sounds Clem, from what you're talking about, that imposter syndrome may be around for quite a long part of somebody's career. It's not something that just, um, you grow out of or appears for a short period of time, but actually it might be something you manage. And, and also that it's less about your capacity and your capability, but more about how you feel.
[00:26:31] Clem: Uh, absolutely, and that's certainly my sort of feeling is, um, as, as people progress, they perhaps think, oh, you know, maybe imposter syndrome only affects people early in their career. Uh, definitely not the case. Um, new level, new devil is a, a kind of, uh, an expression I heard somebody say once. Um, and yeah, the more as you take on senior roles, that sort of feeling of being a fraud, not being ready, being found out, uh, can, can become even more powerful really.
[00:27:02] And, and really the key, uh, a key kind of part of that is really, um, imposter syndrome's kind of linked to this sort of faulty sort of sense of, or confusion of competence versus confidence. So, competence really in terms of how actually good you are at something, uh, the skills you bring to a particular situation. Uh, and somehow that kind of gets confused with the sort of feeling of confidence, which is more about, as it sounds, how confident you feel in a situation.
[00:27:33] So in terms of competence, you may be very competent at a particular skill, but actually how we define competence is often sort of slightly strange. So people who perhaps have a, a tendency to, to be a perfectionist, they define competence, uh, as everything has to be flawless. I've got to hit perfection every single time, otherwise I'm no good at my job. And that ultimately isn't a particularly healthy or useful kind of definition of competence. It's much more healthy to think of it in terms of we need to have the capacity to learn new skills, to make a mistake once in a while, and that kind of, it's a much more, a better way to kind of frame competence in that sense.
[00:28:20] In terms of how confidence plays off against that, if we kind of waited until we felt confident in every situation, then we'd probably never do anything. That sort of sense of, a feeling confident, and again, self is where self doubt comes in, is something that for a lot of people is always there in the background. You know, going on stage to do a big presentation, there's always gonna be some, some doubts, some kind of feelings of confidence here.
[00:28:45] And again, I think I'll, I'll refer back to Valerie Young's work. Again, a lot of her focus on, uh, imposter syndrome has been around this, well, what is it about competence that plays into people's imposter feelings? Why is it that they think they're not competent, and how have they got this confused with how confident they're feeling in a situation? And if you can kind of untangle those a bit, make it a little bit clearer, then it can be easier to again, manage those kind of situations.
[00:29:14] Pia: Yeah, because some of the, some of that feels enduring and some of that is situational. Well, you wanna break, break, that bind that you have, as I say, to almost catastrophize yourself, and do that, do that pile on. You know, terrible. It's awful. I'm never gonna do this. Why am I doing this? Uh, and, and that's, that's not helpful.
[00:29:37] Clem: And so, and some of that's definitely contextual as well, and societal pressures kind of play in. So yeah, people perhaps who feel like they should be good at everything, a kind of trait of imposter syndrome that's sometimes referred to as, uh, superhuman, you know, maybe that goes back to childhood. Maybe that's what they saw their parents doing. Maybe there's an expectation from, you know, whatever group in society, they, uh, are part of that. Yes. So you should be, you should excel in all aspects of your life, for example. And that kind of pressure, um, to perform in that way can then become really deep seated and kind of carry forward, as you say, for a, a long period of time.
[00:30:21] Dan: It's certainly making me think of a few public figures who have very low competence and incredibly and, um, that sort of, it seems to be not ideal either.
[00:30:30] Clem: Yes. Yeah. Well, interestingly that, there was a term that was coined to, uh, kind of talk about that sort of people, which is a Dunning Kruger effect. Um, although, however, I have read recently that that's kind of been fairly widely disproved. So, um, yeah. Not to say that, yeah, I could certainly list off a few people who I think are, are not particularly competent, but highly confident.
[00:30:54] Dan: Yeah, I was looking at that the other day as well actually. It's got the quite analytical graphs and things and I'm sure it's just as it turns out, made up. But Clement, it's um, it's, it's a fascinating topic and it's so in, it's making me really wonder how many people are really suffering from this. And, um, it's easy, it's actually, to be honest, it's a topic is easy to brush off I think as well, to sort of just think everyone has questions about themselves, but I think you've really put your finger on some, the seriousness of this actually, and the way it could really impact people's lives.
[00:31:25] And, um, so if someone is listening to this and they think, wow, that could be me, what's a baby step they could take to, you know, you, you've, you've really helped us to, to, to look at some actions. What, what's that little first step they could take?
[00:31:40] Clem: Yeah, it depends on the situation, I suppose. But I think the first thing I might say is if they have got somebody they can talk to about it, um, not in a kind of therapy way, but more in a sort of just a sense of, um, being able to share those feelings, um, have a discussion about it, is again, it's back to that sort of normalizing it. If you take that step to sort of mention it to a, a kind of trusted colleague or friend, the chances are, as you say, that other person may also say, well, hang, hang on, that feels like me too. And that is often I think the first step.
[00:32:14] If you're in a position though of, of leadership, uh, in some sense or form, not necessarily by title, but maybe just in terms of, you know, experience or position in a team as well, again, that's where I think you can really help others by being that person that does take the, the leap to talk about it. And again, I, I hope in previous roles where I've been in leadership positions, just by simply talking about it, makes it safer for other people to sort of go, oh, hang on, you know what? That feels like, me too. And that is, is always a good first step in my opinion.
[00:32:48] Dan: that's very wise. And now, Clem, we always ask our very interesting, wonderful guest for a recommendation of a, some sort of media, book, a podcast, um, anything else that you've seen that's inspired or interested you. What's, uh, what's top of mind for you?
[00:33:03] Clem: I'll cheat slightly and I'm gonna mention two in quick succession, but, um, yeah so one that's obviously highly relevant to the topic is, uh, Dr. Valerie Young's book, The Secret Thoughts of Successful Women. Uh, again, a fantastic, uh, piece of work on imposter syndrome breaks it down into component parts, really kind of delves into the topic. So if somebody's interested in imposter syndrome, then I'd certainly recommend that, or, or look Dr. Valerie Young, up online and you'll find out loads.
[00:33:31] A book I've read recently though that's, uh, I'm recommended to lots of people is the fearless organization by Dr. Amy Edmondson. Talks a lot about psychological safety and again, I think it's just a super important and really interesting book for anybody really who's in a position of leadership or wants to kind of create a, a culture where you're gonna get the best out of people. Um, and yeah, so I found that particularly inspiring and yeah, just keen to get lots of people reading that if I can.
[00:33:59] Dan: Excellent. Great. Recommendations. Thank you Clem. Those links will be in the show notes and, um, it just leaves us to thank you Clem, for, um, being on the show to talk about this, this important topic. It's been really great to talk to you. Thank you so much.
[00:34:11] Clem: Oh well thank you very much for having me. Yeah, really enjoyed it.
[00:34:17] Pia: When I reflect back to, a number of coaching conversations that I've had over the years, it's actually quite common that the people that I'm working with will say, I think I've got a little bit of imposter syndrome. Um, it, it appears to be quite an easily, easily diagnosable trait. I haven't had too many sort of sociopaths or,
[00:34:36] Dan: Yeah, they're more, they're more tricky to spot
[00:34:38] Pia: yeah, or narcissists. well, they won't admit it
[00:34:41] Dan: They glib charm.
[00:34:42] Pia: Yeah, but in all seriousness, that imposter syndrome is quite easy to be able to help people to normalize, I think some of the difficult feelings that they might have and the pressure they're under, I think it could be quite isolating.
[00:34:56] Dan: And how have they talked about that beyond the imposter syndrome language? How do they express that?
[00:35:02] Pia: They often get into a role, and frankly they're quite surprised how on earth they made it through and they got that role. And, and they sort of feel that they may be, yeah, faking it, which I thought was a really interesting distinction that Clem talked about. So this is the difference between self-doubt or a lack of self confidence. I mean, you know, 99% of the human population feels that at times, so that, that one is a, is a separate one. But that sense of feeling, that internalized fear that you are a fraud and you're going to be found out, that's a differentiator. I, and I like that as a, as a
[00:35:37] Dan: I like that as well. That's a real edge, isn't it? And um, the, that someone's going to point out that you've got a whistle on your, um, hanging around your neck sort of thing. The equivalent of that is, hold on a second. And it's so interesting that isn't it, if you, what would that look like? Someone says, hold on a second. You, you don't know what you're talking about. It was, it sort of doesn't happen, but we can create that, that idea that is gonna happen to us. Extraordinary.
[00:36:04] Pia: And, and that, and it sort of believe that you are fooling, fooling people. Because I think you are carrying a big load if that's the case, because you are believing that every single moment you can't enjoy or cherish it or value it or relax a little bit. You feel like you're on guard. Um, and that, and that would be extremely tiring.
[00:36:24] Dan: Yeah. I, I, this externalizing accomplishments, well, I had a little think about that. And sometimes, you know, we encourage leaders to, um, you know, to lead, um, and to enable others. So sometimes the accomplishments of a leader , . You know, they appear to be by others. And you know, I, I really love that quote from the Tao Te Ching, which is, um, when the master leads, I, the, you know, the mistress, what, whatever the female version is, um, you know, everyone says we did that by ourselves. And you think how wonderful. I've led and they've done it. But, you know, there's a danger. Equally, you could externalize that accomplishment and feel actually a bit useless. Like you, you sort of. And then your imposter, 'cause you're not really part of the, the doing sometimes. So I think there is some, there's some dangers lurking even from, from sort of leading Well I think,
[00:37:14] Pia: And then, Clem pointed out that the people that are more likely to imposter syndrome are in fact high performers. so so they're not, it's unusual that it's somebody that just sort of, you know, may not actually be that great at their job, and that's fine because they probably won't, won't, they won't survive very long. This is different. This is actually people who are actually doing a great job and, and may go unnoticed. Having the, having all the doubt, uh, and, and that feeling of being a fraud, that sense of being a fraud, I, I think it would probably go pretty unrecognizable.
[00:37:49] Um, I did like how he talked about the three ways to, to manage it. Because it is a psychological trend. It's not a psychological disorder, but it is a psychological trend and behavior. You've got to manage it. It's not just going to go away and you wake up one day and you don't get it. And that, and he did talk about how people move jobs, but that ability to normalize it, reframe and then just keep going, you know, not, not to get stopped
[00:38:16] Dan: Yes. Yeah, no, I think they were really, they were top tips. And I was also, you know, this, uh, podcast has become a bit of a leadership confessional for me. So the one I was thinking about was I had someone working for me once who was just really great at their job. I thought they're ama, it is an amazing hire. They knew what they were doing, they were great with the team. And so we just had loads of positive conversations of sort of motivating. I encourage, you know, said they, you know, just said they're doing a great job, keep going, sort of thing.
[00:38:43] And in our annual review they said, uh, how am I doing? And I thought, interesting. I said, well, you're doing really well. It's amazing. But I think what it was was that because. I hadn't given them any developmental feedback, they were just thinking I was being a nice guy and were probably sort of a little bit questioning themselves. Is this all real?
[00:39:07] And I realized that actually it's, it's really important and I, I think really settling for people, for someone who might have imposter syndrome to actually know that they're receiving feedback that's developmental. Say, yeah, okay. Actually they did tell me I should have done that better or, okay, so. Everything else is okay. Do you see what I mean? It's a bit of a weird way of looking at it.
[00:39:27] Pia: Well, that's, you've gotta be authentic. You don't wanna treat your team members like a dog and keep giving them pats. I think that's it. that, that, that, that's condescending and that's actually going to add to the whole problem. So
[00:39:37] Dan: But they, if they don't hear that development, they think they're not getting any. So they, it's, it could weirdly put them in that spot. So, yeah. It's, um, however good a job they're doing, they need to, a, a high performer will want developmental feedback and they'll appreciate it, and, and it can alleviate them of that doubt that might be lingering. So, um, anyway, it's, um. It's two weeks since I've been to confession and there's another one. Um, yeah. Excellent. Thank you so much.
[00:40:04] But that is it for this episode. You can find show notes where you are listening and at squadify.net if you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends. If you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:40:23] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.