[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. Now Dan Hammond, we have an interesting episode. That's I'm probably going to bring something back. 

[00:00:22] Dan: it really is. So, um, we're going to be talking about grief actually. And, um, I was, it may be look back to when we first met and I joined the organization, joined LIW back in 2008 and it was when we first worked together. And Mum had died the previous year. And then my dad died literally within months of my joining LIW. I don't think those two events were connected, me joining LIW, um, but there was not really any, it was sort of in a way the know, you're an adult and your parents have died. That's the normal run of things. But of course I was, I was impacted hugely by those two things happening in quick succession.

[00:01:00] And, and obviously, you know, in being in England, people just ask you how long, oh, they had a good innings. I don't care what the earnings was it, and you know, they're out and I don't, you know, and so you're going through all these things, but you. Gave me, or sent me an article that you'd seen about, uh, adult orphans, which is what happens when your parents die and you are, you know, you're an orphan. And that was really the pretty much the only guidance I had of what it, how you're supposed to deal with this situation, other than it's your grownup, it's normal. Get over it. Um, so yeah, it really brought that back and I was very grateful to you for thinking, but also recognizing that it it's, it impacts us at any age 

[00:01:45] Pia: And I remember that really well. And I remember also that we feel a bit difficult how to broker a conversation, but we all lose somebody. We all feel grief, but we haven't got the words necessarily to talk about it. And, um I've always said that grief is not a team sport, it's an individual sport and, and that's a tough one too, because then sometimes you feel really isolated. And when I came to Australia and I married my partner, Heidi I was welcomed into this wonderful Aussie family and our guests, James and Kristy are part of my Aussie family. And they have been on an incredible journey of taking their pain and their grief and turning it into an absolutely awesome charity for grieving kids. So let's go over and, and let's meet them because it's a pretty amazing story.

[00:02:49] And welcome and really lovely to have James and Kristy Thomas from fielder magic. Hello to you both.

[00:02:59] Kristy: Hello,

[00:03:00] James: so much for having us.

[00:03:01] Pia: Oh, this is great. This is the second time. Second time. We've got a couple. We've got a bit of a theme here, Dan. This

[00:03:06] Dan: We have it's. This is good. Talk about how humans connect. This is it.

[00:03:10] Pia: Now we're not going to talk about the teamwork of your marriage. So don't worry about that. You could, we could settle down. but we do want to know about you. So do you want to tell us a little bit about who you are?

[00:03:19] James: Well, let's face it. I'm James Thomas. And I'm the co-founder of Feel the Magic. Uh, but more importantly I'm a, I'm a loving husband and a, and a doting dad to two beautiful little boys.

[00:03:30] Kristy: And I am Kristy Thomas James, his beautiful wife, and also a co-founder at Feel the Magic, and I currently work in the organization in a national virtual camps lead role. And the number one question we get asked is how do you work together as husband and wife? So we can definitely address that later.

[00:03:55] Pia: What'd you started off well by paying each other compliments. So that, that was a great start. 

[00:04:00] Dan: Yeah, that was very good. We, we w w well, let's definitely pick that up a little bit later, but we're going to start to get to know a bit about you by playing the conversation starter card game. And I'm genuinely shuffling the pack, and I'm going to choose a card at random for you. Um, and the question is, I want to be known for. What would you like to be known for?

[00:04:22] Kristy: I would like to be known for having some kind of positive impact on young kids' lives.

[00:04:29] Pia: Well, you already are known 

[00:04:34] Dan: Good bit of alignment. Excellent. Thank you. Cause the.

[00:04:36] James: can I have two answers, please.

[00:04:37] Dan: Of course. I think we know how this is going to go here. Yeah, definitely kept two answers, James.

[00:04:43] James: So one, what my first would be, I want to be nine as a, as a fantastic father. So I want my boys to in some way, shape or form replicates their parenting from what I've taught them in some, in some ways better, what I've done that set the foundations for them. And number two would be have a huge part of changing the way that grieving kids are treated in this country.

[00:05:04] Pia: so, you know, you two co-founded Feel the Magic, which was Australia's first charity for grieving kids. It's been a bit of, I know you, well, it's been a big journey.

[00:05:18] James: It's a very, very long story. And as you know, per you've, you've kind of been there for a lot of the journey and watched, watched Kristy and I grow along the way, but, uh, for us, um, I'll let Kristy share her personal story, but we both have lost, um, her own personal stories of loss. So I lost both my parents as a young adult. More recently my mum on my 31st birthday, which was a huge shock, uh, And as a 31 year old, man, I, uh, it's probably the first time I grieved when I had lost my dad, it's the first time I actually grieved and I really didn't know how to deal with it. Um, and scarily, I, I, uh, didn't I was ever going to be the same again. That's, that's how harsh it impacted me. And I think no, I think I brought this lifestyle around, um, that age of being 31, you know, getting a house and build a business and all this sort of stuff that I thought would make me happy. But when Mum died, it just absolutely floored me. And it just made me start asking questions about who I was, what is my purpose in this world, and. Sadly. I realized that everything that I've built up around me and Kristy meant absolutely nothing. 

[00:06:31] Kristy: Yeah for me, I lost my brother when I was a young girl. So, um, I've been through and dealt with childhood brief moment. So, I've seen firsthand what it does to what a did, sorry for my family and for my extended family. And then for my own personal journey, it has absolutely been the one thing that has impacted every decision I've made throughout my life. Just because of that one event.

[00:07:03] And then if we take the story back to when James lost his mom, he actually just went into such a depression that eventually we decided that he would sell his business and he did that because he was so unhappy there. And we went on this holiday to Disneyland. And for the first time, in a really long time, James said to me you know, I'm starting to feel better, cause he just connected to that childhood innocent self of himself. And then realizing that, you know, I had been through childhood bereavement. He said, you know what, if we bring kids who have been through the worst thing ever, you know, losing a parent or a sibling and bring them to the happiest place on earth, which was Disneyland. And of course I said, yes, that's amazing, let's do it. Having been completely naive as to what that meant.

[00:07:59] Dan: Yes. Yes. It's that? That's probably why these things get started actually, we have no idea what we're getting ourselves into.

[00:08:07] Kristy: Well put it this way. We will never start a charity again, that's for sure.

[00:08:10] James: way, no way, in the world. 

[00:08:13] Dan: Sounds like you don't need to. So look, I'm fascinated by so, um, I'm sorry for the loss that you've both suffered. And it's clearly the foundation you've used that as a springboard, but you've got an, you know, a grieving adults and a grieving child. And what was the, there's clearly a need for Feel the Magic. What was the support that you had in terms around you at that time?

[00:08:37] James: I vividly remember the day that mum died, I, I didn't know she had died. So basically she died from a brain aneurism, but I was already on my way to work and I had to turn around and come back and I saw them putting my mom into the the ambulance. And I said, mate, I said the plane hospital, we'll, we'll meet you there and we'll let you know what's going on. And the whole way they're always fine. I thought, you know, Mum's tough. She's a strong woman. She was healthy. She was fit. Everything will be okay. But remember they ushered us into this room. It was almost like a fine sign booth size. And we were sitting there both Kristy and I and the doctor or the neurosurgeon just walked in and basically he Mr. Thomas and cover him exactly what he said, but I remember it was just called basically, you know, sorry. She didn't make it. And it was no warning. No. 

[00:09:28] I think Kristy kind of intuitively knew that something serious was, was, was wrong. And I think I was being a bit naive, but just the way he broke that news to me was cold and it was methodical and it was getting in and getting out, which I've learned along my journey would Feel the Magic it's that's what they're trying to do is just deliver the bat. Some of the police, some of the ambulance, just deliver the bad use and get, get the hell out of there.

[00:09:52] And then it snowballed from that to speaking to a, what would you call her, Kristy? Was she a counselor on site or a caseworker? I can't remember. 

[00:10:01] Kristy: She was actually the person helping with the donation of the organs, so she was a support worker for that, but outside of that, there was no support provided.

[00:10:13] James: She, I remember she gave me a booklet and funny enough that was in 2011 and she gave me a booklet and I don't remember what I did with it. And when we moved, so we, we live in beautiful Port Macquarie. So we moved here a year and a half ago and I found that booklet almost 10 years later. Still stored away in a cupboard, not even touched, not even open, not even looked at. So again, ticking boxes, here's, here's a, here's a brochure. Have a look at this and it'll support you, which when you're, when you've just received devastating news, it's, you're not thinking about that, you're not prepared to read a book or read, read some notes.

[00:10:52] Kristy: Uh, for me, there was nothing. Available to me. Yeah. Completely different time. For me, I wasn't even developmentally old enough to be, actually understand the words to say for me, it was just like a, oh my God. He's here one day and he's gone the next. And so, for me going through something so young, so most likely. I've heard the term said so many times. I don't even, I don't think it's a real word, but re grieving is how you, how you describe when you lose. So in childhood, each developmental, um, milestone or anniversary or thing that you go through, you think about that person again, like, oh, they're not here for that, so it's this constant reminder. And so. I don't think I sought any kind of professional therapy until I was about 20.

[00:11:50] Dan: Well, by which time many neural pathways have been 

[00:11:53] Kristy: yes, 

[00:11:54] Dan: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Interesting. So Feel the Magic is going to start to fill some of this gap, I guess.

[00:12:00] Pia: Yeah. So when, so you went to, went to Disneyland. I've got it. It makes me feel like a seven year old every time I'm there, which is whatever age I go. And then, so then what did you do to then start to take this kernel of an idea and actually get it going?

[00:12:19] Kristy: Well, when you start a, not for profit, you have to build a board around you immediately, which we did with friends actually. We basically reached out to two or three friends that had specific skillsets. And we said, can you be on our board? And um, we started raising money to send kids to Disneyland. And in total we sent 14 families over on a lifetime adventure. We'd send them with a chaperone. So they would have like an interactive, so someone would plan out their day and take them along for the ride. But what we found really quickly, what we noticed was that the families were getting more out of communicating with each other and creating their own little community than they were then the actual trip going to America.

[00:13:11] And so it just seemed obvious that we needed to, that with the money we were raising, we could actually have so much more impact by educating kids on how to grieve and becoming part of the community, then sending them off to Disneyland. So that's kind of where that came about. And now we have Camp Magic, which is our three-day camp where children come for grief education, they learned self soothing techniques, self-regulation techniques , they connect with other kids like them, which is actually probably one of the most important steps is that they, they realize they're not alone. And they actually have a bowl at grief care, believe it or not. And socially fun. 

[00:14:04] Dan: I have a ball at grief camp. That's a good motto. Yeah. 

[00:14:07] Kristy: Yeah.

[00:14:08] Dan: No, and that's wonderful. 

[00:14:10] James: But it will say, um, and we'll just add onto that and obviously going back a few years, but I remember sitting on our lounge trying to create a name. So when we first got home, we. It's almost like we knew it was going to happen when you were going to make it happen. And Kristy and I are trying to figure out a name sitting on the lounge and, and we, we knew the word magic had to be in it and being a Disneyland experience. It just, yeah. Once we came up with Feel the Magic, we were like, ah, yeah. that's that's it. 

[00:14:38] Dan: The opposite of what you felt going through your grieving experiences, I guess as 

[00:14:43] James: Yeah. So this digital was just there to give them some hope, some light at the end of the tunnel to look forward to. But in hindsight, what's, coming out of the site so, so much bigger and more impact, longer term, you know, it's life-changing.

[00:14:57] Dan: it's it's wonderful work. So let, and let's dive into this question of how humans connected to make all this happen. So let's get into the teams. You've already mentioned that board that you pulled around you immediately. What, what else have you seen? Well, how else do some teams operate in your world?

[00:15:14] Kristy: With Camp Magic. In particular, we had created a camp model where each of the children that come along to camp, we have anywhere between 40 and 60 kids and matched one-to-one with an adult mentor. So what we needed at every camp was a team of volunteers to come along and mentor these kids. So in order for us to deliver cats. We needed at least double the amount of kids we had plus a team of people to deliver the program, which included volunteers that have mental health, professional skills, as well as professional teachers or educators, and then anyone with lived experience. So, possibly suffered a childhood bereavement. So essentially when we're talking about a campus, 60 kids, we're talking about 80 to 90 volunteers that come along as well. So it's huge amount of people that we need to deliver our camps. And I think one of the key things for us. When we train our mentors and our volunteers, and we ask them in originally a first care, literally was friends, family, and people who knew us that we could get in. We had a few random people that came and they're still with us today, which is incredible.

[00:16:42] Pia: The randoms.

[00:16:44] Kristy: Yeah, the randoms that I think we're actually godparents to a couple of those random kids. Um, but they came in and we call them the OGs because they've been, you know, some of them have been to like 15, 16 cats with us. And I think from the very beginning, what they knew they would get from us was, we had really clear values. So we started our first camp with empathy, empowerment, and growth. So those were the three items that we drilled into them. These are the things that we are looking for at camp. So I came along to our first camp and then what we realized, we actually had no idea this was going to happen, but we were there to change the kids' lives and what we did, um, by meant having them mentor the kids, we changed their life as well, because they were giving back. They felt like they were part of a community. And at the end of that first camp, we went, you know what, we've got one value missing. We actually added in connection. So we've got empathy, empowerment, growth, and connection, because that connection pace was the thing that's the magic that happens at camp. 

[00:18:00] we call ourselves a Heartland organization a hundred percent because of the people that are in it. If we didn't have the people in our organization that we do, I'm talking about our volunteers in particular, then our kids would not come to camp.

[00:18:18] James: It's an organization that makes sense. I guess from a, I guess from a sales point of view, it's, um, you know, we had 60 or 80 volunteers giving up their time and they're not packing shelves or painting a wall, or I'm not discrediting that, that sort of service, but, um, there's corporates out there that pay big money to send a team to do that type of stuff to charities. Whereas we were giving them a lived experience by actually having a direct hand on changing the life of a grieving child. And you can see, feel and watch these child flourish from someone who didn't want to be there to being on stage at the end dancing and having fun and connecting with other kids in similar situations.

[00:19:03] So it's a cause it made sense. And I feel like, you know, again, going back to the beginning, it's the more people we told about this organization. It just made sense that, you know, there was not one that really questioned it. Along the way, I remember asking myself and even discussing with Kristy, how are we the first people that to think of this, this is this can't be true. There must be other organizations out there doing what we want to do. And there are some other organizations, but I did. I found that teamwork wasn't on their radar and collaboration wasn't on their radar. It was almost, we do it our way. We're holding things tight to our chest and just go away, so as being so driven and passionate about making a difference, it just attracted the right people we jokingly said it hasn't no, dickhead policy, really. You know, of any Dicker did show up to camp that would pretty much flushed it out straight away. And it's just, the team as in volunteers that just beautiful, beautiful people that are there to give back.

[00:19:59] Dan: And just, so this is really at the heart of teamwork in a way, is that you're, you're, you're sort of sifting people, but what is dickhead behavior for you?

[00:20:08] James: For me, it's, it's someone that, that is there for himself. So, you know, there may be too self-conscious to get out of their comfort zone and give it their all support that child, or try to fix the child or, you know, egotistical.

[00:20:25] Kristy: I think people who have their own agenda running where they're not really there for. The child they're there for the, the status to say, are, you know, I did this this weekend and people who show up late, I got a big day on their head. That's for sure. Yes. Cause we run to a very strict timeline, but. Yeah, I think it's more that if you, and this, this is what we taught. We do talk heavily about this at campus. That there's no ego. Like, it's just, you literally, you don't have to, you don't show up at camp being a mom or a dad or a famous actor. Some of our ambassadors come sometimes or the NRL football player. You're literally just yourself. You rock, you arrive at camp and all of that falls away. And all you have to do is stand beside a child through that journey. And it's the most powerful thing because you just arrive, we'd know preconceived idea that you're going to change the world or fix this person. Cause there's no, no one needs to be fixed. No one needs advice. It's literally just go through the process. And you come out the other side. You know, volunteers say they go home better husbands, better wives, better parents because of this experience. 

[00:21:55] James: I've got a good mate of mine that's that's done it. Can't many times. And he, as a data for boys, he found himself trying to fix his children's problems, but coming to camp and dealing with kids that are dealing with some major problems, uh, realize that he can't fix it. Uh, layer that is children to develop resilience and work it out for themselves with his guidance, of course, um, which is pretty big as a, as a father, because you feel like you need to fix everything, but some things you just, you just can't, and it's probably a bit of the better thing to do for your child.

[00:22:28] Pia: You're now the founders of a, of a really successful charity. And, but w what, there must have been times when it was really, really tough. So, so what, what were some of the biggest challenges and how did you navigate that together, as the two founders?

[00:22:49] James: So to put a plan in Sanford with that, where that Kristy's support it, we wouldn't have been able to do what we did because I didn't work. I didn't add an actual proper income for about five years. Cause Feel the Magic didn't pay me a cent for either a cent for at least five, six years. And so I was, I was working as a laborer with a mate three days a week, work, staying up too late, working on this now while Kristy worked full time and run a dance business. So we did the hard yards we really did. And we, there was many, many times where I just think this is, are we doing the right thing? You know? And, you know, I guess it was my ego asked me that, but my heart knew that we were on definitely doing the right, the right thing, and which is why we persisted with it. And the more and more kids we supported, the more impact that made. But yeah, that's the toughest thing, the toughest thing was, you know, the no income.

[00:23:41] I guess, you know, I haven't been a charity to, it has its challenges with people's perception of charity and the uneducated opinion of them at times. I do. I do find that hard, especially when you, especially when you're, you know, you built it from the ground up and it's quite offensive, what people think.

[00:23:58] Pia: I'm surprised actually, I thought, I thought you would, you would be sort of revered for the work that you're doing and, and the fact that it's for charity that, um, helped me understand what, what is it that people are? Are they threatened by something?

[00:24:16] James: I guess when I, when I was, you know, I've been to pitchers, I've been to, a local business chamber of commerce meetings, and people just sent you there to ask for their money and you notice is more about raising awareness and giving a talk and hopefully, you know, speak to their heart, to get them to inquire more about Feel the Magic. But there is a perception of when you say a charity in the, in the shopping center with a bucket, or, you know, they want you to stop and sign up people don't like that. And I always pretend I'm on my fine and walk straight past them. So I always wanted Feel the Magic to be different and by knowing that we getting the phone call, uh, during dinner time to raise funds to raise money, it just, just didn't want to do that cause that that's annoying. And I think that's where charities that have been around for many, many decades have been doing that and it obviously works for them because they keep doing it, but it just doesn't have to be done like that because of the noise people.

[00:25:08] Kristy: Yeah, we always, we always wanted to give people an experience first. Because that way we're giving them something as well. We always wanted to have that exchange where, um, it's not just, Hey, throw money at us and we'll send you an email that says, thank you. It's like, well, if you're going to donate that money, come and have a mentoring experience, and do that with us so that you can directly see where, where your money's gone.

[00:25:38] James: That trickled down to better events as well. All of our events were top-notch. You know our, our annual gala dinner, that was just a, that was an experience in itself, and that's evolved over the years, you know? And, um, yeah, it was all, it was always about, I guess, Kristy and I I always remembered that the feeling that we had walking through the gates of Disneyland and that kind of drove us to giving that experience to, to our stakeholders or board members or volunteers or even, even the families we supported. And it's just about that feeling of feeling the magic, really. 

[00:26:12] Dan: And I, that, um, that idea that you talked about, the, the, the practice actually. Building reciprocity in, right from the start that you give and you, you receive that, uh, it seems to be a very powerful example of your fourth value of connection. Actually it builds a stronger bond, I guess. Doesn't it?

[00:26:29] This has been inspiring and, um, I think incredibly actually incredibly practical as well. We're getting some really good nuggets for people out there. How would you leave our listener today? if you look at your experience of bringing people around, you align to a purpose, what would you say is your learning that you can leave the listener with?

[00:26:49] Kristy: What got us through is we always had a really, really clear vision of what we wanted to create and we're still trying to create that. I mean, our ultimate goal was always to be a household. So that when someone thinks about grief and loss, they know Feel the Magic's there. 

[00:27:11] In Australia, one in 20 kids will lose a parent by the time they're 18, which is not doesn't include any other kind of loss that they may experience. So to be a household name was so important for us. And we had that clear vision. So anytime the going got tough and it got tough, because when you're talking about dealing with teams of people going on camps with, you know, 90 volunteers managing that is difficult and challenging. And, when you are a charity, there's a different expectation placed on you you're expected to help everyone whenever they need it as well there's this sense that we are the be-all and end-all so yeah, I think having that clear vision of what we wanted to create an impact grieving children's lives because we were so passionate, we just kept on it.

[00:28:09] And I think having each other through this, we wouldn't have, I would never have done it on my own and I don't think James would have done it without me. In the sense that we both had times where we wanted to quit and the other push the other one up. And just to be a bit woo too, I dunno if that's appropriate, but I truly believe that the stars aligned for us in the way that once we had this idea, we both just had this gut feeling that we were onto something and we just kept following that gut, kept following, even though it was really hard, and we face many challenges over time. Big things would show up for us that pushed us along that way, that just showed us that we were on the right track for sure.

[00:28:55] James: So I think from a team and even a business or a leadership perspective, it's funny, I'm saying this now because I'm in a bit of a different position myself that I think when you're in a team and you're trying to build something new, it can't be about the money because it was about the money for us. We would have given up in the first week because that's your first week without pay, let alone, you know, five, six years of earning squat. So there needs to be a. a higher purpose. I don't want to use the word purpose, but a higher, what reason why you're committing and devoting yourself to something that is bigger than you are.

[00:29:34] And, you know, in hindsight could Kristy know, done this. If we had, uh, two little boys now, there's probably no way in the world. So again, they started along. We, you know, we didn't have young young children at time. So, yeah, I think from a team perspective yet, it's kind of a, you know, to have the right site, not only have the right time, but have the right reason why and all on board. And I think that's what organically worked for that. I don't, I don't think Kristy and I made that happen. I feel like we, it just, we had this idea, the stars aligned and everything that everything didn't fall into place, but the right things fell in the right place at the right time.

[00:30:11] And it's almost like golf. I don't know if you guys are golfers, but I'm a, I'm a terrible golfer, but every now and then I think, why am I playing this? And I hit a beautiful shot. I think I've got it. I'm going to come back. And I kept coming back to this and it's like running. It was like starting a charity where you think this is, this is shit. It's not going anywhere. And blah, and then all of a sudden you, you meet someone have a great conversation that leads to something else that, that supports you for the next six months yet.

[00:30:35] Pia: It reminds me, James, you know, I think there'll be many people who will be listening to this who may not be starting a charity, but maybe in a startup, a small organization, got an idea, want to pursue it. And you're in the dark woods for a long period of time, but it's the passion and the purpose that keep you going and stop you giving up, I think. So I mean, you know, I think you're just an incredible inspiration because you too. Personal pain and have really turned it around, um, right from the grassroots foot for the good for lot. And I have no doubt that you will be a household name because of the good of what you do and that you've just delivered this through your passion and your values all the way through you've touched many, many lives.

[00:31:32] All of us have seen a huge impact that you've created. So, thank you from the bottom of our hearts for coming on today and sharing that because I think there'll be many people that will be incredibly touched. And also want to know more about Feel the Magic, because I think it'd be a lot of people listening out there that will also be impacted by grief as well. So thank you. 

[00:31:56] James: Thank you. Thanks for having us. 

[00:32:01] Pia: Well, that was, uh, that was just a delightful conversation. Didn't you find that it was

[00:32:08] Dan: I really did. They're so genuine. So genuine, really enjoyed them, meeting them for the first time.

[00:32:15] Pia: And I th I hope people are listening out there. Feel genuinely inspired by how two people with a passion and efficient have made it happen. That I think that, that provides an opportunity for all of us, you know? And I think that they got really clear about some things. I was genuinely interested to hear about James's comments, some of the negativity about being a charity and how they actually got really clear this was about what they could give, and almost that level of reciprocity that happens that when you're in that position to give, then you're going to gain something out of it. There's going to be really rich.

[00:32:58] Dan: Yeah immediately. Yeah. And build that connection through that, just, you know, rather than, you know, it's very our sense of money. That's not connection actually is when you, when you really build a stronger relationship, something reciprocal, as you say. And, um, yeah, it was, it was, it was inspiring to hear how James sort of sounded like a hit, bounced off rock bottom. You know, he hit the bottom, but actually bounced back and, and did this. I, I think that piece about connection, though, it also struck me that it, it ties to the no dickheads policy they've got. And we, we talk about this a little bit, but actually it was fascinating to hear what they meant by that, because it turns out that in summary, I thought what I heard was it's actually, who are you, who you in this for? Are you, are you genuinely in this for the, for the, um, kids or are you in it for yourself? And that little subtle point about ego. We sort of think about egos being sort of being overbearing, whatever, but that little bit of ego they mentioned, which was, are you too self-conscious to give yourself and to do what's needed to do for the kids at the time. I thought that was a little interesting twist on what, what ego can do for us.

[00:34:04] Pia: Yeah. And I think too sometimes that that ego is triggered by our own experience. And I'm sure that, and again, that says, you know, you can judge people for being a dickhead, but actually they may have had an experience where they weren't treated very, with a lot of compassion. And so they're only just replicating what they know. 

[00:34:25] The overwhelming sense was you've just got this amazing connected opportunity to really learn and give and grow, and make a huge difference. And when you've got children who may have lost their parent, and I remember very much a school friend of mine who lost a father who died at seven, she was seven years old, and all she said to me one day was my dad died at the weekend and she never, I knew, knew that friend for 20 years after that. She never mentioned it again. So it really does strike home to me, the importance of creating this opportunity.

[00:35:09] Dan: as you say, definitely wasn't, grieving wasn't a team sport there by the sound of it and they are making it into one, which is just inspiring to see what can be done when you, uh, when you get humans to connect around something, even as profound, as grief, as a wonderful, wonderful episode.

[00:35:23] Pia: So tell us then who is next?

[00:35:28] Dan: So next week, we're going to be talking to Matt Matt Phelan. He's the co-founder and CEO of a company called the Happiness Index. So he knows a lot about happiness and he measures it in companies around the world and he's a bright spark. And of course this is a happiness is a thing that's much debated, you know, w w how do you get it? And he will shed some light on that and what that means for teams. So I'm really looking forward to talking to Matt next week. 

[00:35:55] But that is it for this episode. You can find show notes and resources, uh, on Squadify dot net. Just click on the we, not me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. And also, if you have a moment, please go onto your favorite podcast platform and give us nice rating. You can also contribute to the show by leaving us a voice note with a question or a comment, or even a challenge for peer. Just find the link in the show notes. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:36:29] Pia: And this goodbye from me.