Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Jeff Yan.
In this episode, you will hear part two of my conversation with Rebecca Thomas,
Director of the Pathways ePortfolio Program and Adjunct Assistant Professor
of the Electrical and Computer Engineering Department at Bucknell University.
More links and information about today's conversation can be found on Digication's
Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
Full episodes of Digication Scholar Conversations can be found on
YouTube or your favorite podcast app.
Now, you are, you know, again, you know, the director for, of the, of the Pathways
ePortfolio program, which is like you said, a campus wide, um, initiative.
Um, how, what are some, can you give us some sort of insights maybe You know,
anecdotes on some of the things that might have either surprised you or impressed
you on what students have been able to do to, to, you know, include those
aspects of life into their education.
And it doesn't have to be about engineering, because I know, but I
know the majority of our students are, you know, engineers in this
case, um, you know, something that.
Something that will give other folks a little bit of a practical
glimpse of, Oh, that's what you mean.
Because to me, I think that there's, you know, a lot of assumption that
simply just goes, okay, great.
Um, engineer, you know, doing meaningful work.
Maybe they're doing a better, I don't know, solar panel.
And that's it.
Um, to me, it feels a lot more nuanced than that.
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
So we're still.
Fairly early in, you know, getting, getting students to do ePortfolios, um,
and so I don't know if I have a lot of specific examples, but, uh, the one, and
the ones that we've been doing so far are usually pretty course focused, right?
That'll be part of You know, an instructor decides to put them in the course, right?
They're part of the grade, part of a project, part of something.
So, so sadly, right?
That, that kind of confines what you're expecting and, and what we
get, but we're starting to see, right?
The students pull in other parts, um, right?
And see more of, of who our students are.
That's, uh, faculty who have used portfolios have really enjoyed them
because they're getting to see more glimpses of, Of who their students
are and what they're interested in, but what they really want to do,
which are things like we usually don't know because we don't ask.
And maybe we didn't even know to ask.
Right.
That's so interesting.
I know that you were saying that, hey, we're just starting and doing this
is actually incredibly insightful.
I, in my mind, because, um, there is, it almost feels once you said
it, that it should be obvious when you work with students.
It's great when you know who they are, who they want to be and what,
what do they value in their lives?
What makes them happy and what makes them, you know, feel,
feel like, um, feel excited.
But if you don't know that, and all that you know is here's my questions,
I want you to come with the answers.
It really ignores the entire layer.
So it's almost like, like what you're saying, before we get to the point where
you can see the results of what these students are doing, we need them to
have a go at showing their professors who they are in an authentic way.
So that the professors can then say, Oh, knowing that, let's push
you in this direction, right?
But without that, it doesn't It doesn't work, right?
Because even if I were just to say, let's say that I'm a professor in, you know, in,
in, in, in, um, uh, chemical engineering.
And I, I, I'm really, you know, I'm expertise is in photophotic cells and
creating, you know, next generation of, you know, solar power, blah, blah, blah.
Right.
I can tell people.
That, hey, this is it, you need to be working on this because, you know, our
world is, you know, getting too hot.
We need to find new ways to create energy.
Almost like if you just tell them that, it doesn't count.
Do you know what I mean?
It's like, like you need to get to, you need to learn what the
students, who the students are first.
So that has been kind of my first ePortfolio, ePortfolio
project in class has been.
Um, I teach the first year design course in electrical and computer engineering.
Um, and this is the first course that students take within the department.
They take it the spring semester of their freshman year.
Um, and so I designed an e portfolio, right, that gives them a little bit
of a chance to explore the discipline because a lot of Them to come in not
really knowing what an electrical engineer or a computer engineer does.
Um, right.
A lot of people don't know that.
'cause I still get asked when I say I'm an electrical engineer.
If I can wire a house, and I most certainly cannot do that.
And electrical engineers are doing all kinds of things that
have nothing to do with wiring.
But you're also not an electrician.
Right, right.
Right.
But so it gives them a chance to explore, you know, what are the different things?
And electrical engineering is hugely broad, right?
There are the people that work on power, like traditional power stations.
Um, even You know, different things with signals and RFID.
Uh, I did very small things, right, uh, uh, semiconductors and, you
know, making, making devices out of, out of semiconductors, right?
So students get a chance to at least dip their toe in this, um, but also in
their ePortfolio they have to answer questions like, what do you value, right?
And we give a list.
What are the top five things in this that you value and why?
What interests you?
Like, what?
What hobbies did you do, um, and, and what have those taught you about yourself?
Right?
So they're learning at the same time, what are the possibilities in
this discipline that I've chosen?
You know, who am I and, and how did these things link together?
Right?
And it's, it's only one, one ePortfolio assignment very early on,
but I, you know, I think that kind of sets them on the right track to.
To think more in that way, um, and just to be reflective in general, right?
A huge part of ePortfolios are, are learning how to reflect and,
and learning, you know, how to, how to apply that in different places.
And that's one thing that we've seen even early on is that when we ask
students to reflect in their first year, then they get to their second year and
they're taking design courses or they're even taking, you know, kind of a more
technically focused required course.
But we see them being more reflective and transferring that,
you know, to different courses and to like different domains even.
Um, yeah, so that's been really, really cool to see and, and kind of surprising
that it, it didn't take that much.
It took like one, Intervention.
An ePortfolio Intervention to do that.
Yeah, I really feel like that these are the, you know, I almost wanted to take
your eight semester long, you know, follow up, you know, course, like this
idea and like go all the way down to like middle school or something, you
know, because like, imagine how, um, How differently people will approach life, um,
if they were exposed to things a little earlier, because I think it's kind of
like what you, I always have this vision, uh, Rebecca, you know, when you were
saying, well, it's just this one thing in the beginning, I have them do, but to
me, it's like, if you're in the ocean, you're sailing this large ship and you
like turn them, you know, one degree.
One direction, but if you then run four years of sailing this boat, you're
going to be in a different continent, you know, um, and so it's like, it's
such a big, huge, you know, impact when you can catch them at the right time.
Don't you think?
Yeah.
Um, can you tell me a little bit about.
I want to talk a little bit about today's engineering students.
Um, I, I think that in the last, definitely in the last decade, but I
think even especially perhaps because of COVID, because of, you know, all of
the different societal, um, norms being changed and challenged, you know, in the
last few years, um, they're There seems to be a whole new set of students having
maybe different value systems, comes to facing different issues, um, and, and I've
talked to a lot of people about that in sort of the general student population,
but I kind of kept wondering whether some of those issues exist for, you know.
Engineering students, or whether you see any sort of trends, so you already had
mentioned, you know, gender is something that you're still fighting for, right?
And we already talked about the, the sort of nuance, you know, approach
of like problem solving versus let's talk about the problem first.
Um, but are there other things too?
I mean, I see a lot of issues, you know, like mental health.
I see a lot of, you know, um, Issues with people thinking about
affordability of higher education.
Um, and probably, you know, one that, that is popular these
days is artificial intelligence.
And I, I, I almost don't want to talk about specifically like chat GPT or
generative, you know, sort of stuff, but more than further implications of where
artificial intelligence may, may come in.
Of course, some of your students I'm assuming are studying that and maybe
practicing, you know, you know, in that.
Yeah.
Um, so, yeah, one change I see just about kind of their interest, I see a lot more
students interested in, um, environmental issues, right, and interested in, in
doing things with renewable energy, um, and doing different things that
can, can help protect our planet.
Uh, so there's, I think that's one thing that, that is different
about this generation of students.
Um.
Can I ask a really, really, really simple question?
Do you meet any students who don't believe that we have an environmental issue today?
I have not come across any, uh, you know, mainly when I hear about it.
But it exists, you know, there are pockets of our population believes that, right.
Yeah.
Um, right.
But most of the time when I hear about their, their interests in it, right,
it's because I ask, like, you know, why did, why did you choose this?
Or what, you know, what are your interests that overlap?
Right?
And I hear that a lot more.
So I don't ask the question flat out.
Yeah.
Um, everyone's, you know, they, they're, they're, they're more thoughtful
than just, you know, do I believe it?
Do I not?
Of course I do.
Um, yeah.
Um, okay.
And I want to, right.
And, and a lot of them are a little bit more aware, I think, of, you
know, the, the issues that our technology, right, that engineers
have created, uh, are causing.
So, so engineers have been part of the problem.
I believe that's a big part of the problem, and now we need to really figure
out how to be part of the solution.
Is there a sense of, you know, like, I know that when, um, when I talk to people,
you know, if you, I mean, I think Greta Thunberg is the, the, the, the real, you
know, the person that really comes to mind that, This is a person who is saying, you
guys really screwed up this planet for us, like literally just this, this last,
you know, few decades, it wasn't that screwed up before, like you really did it.
You screwed it up for us.
I'm going, we are going to have to fix it.
Hopefully you can help fix it, but we are going to really be the one who's
going to face this and have to fix it.
There's a sense of, um, both urgency, but there's also a sense of, You
know, like they are born with this weight on their shoulders, you know,
and for the generation that created it, they didn't have that sense.
They just wanted to do whatever they want.
They may not know that that's what they were doing.
Or they may not be, uh, they may not realize how badly it can be and how,
how, how large the problem is going to scale to, you know, like the butterfly
effect, uh, the effect, you know?
Yeah, that, I mean, that was kind of the, the problem.
Engineers were handed and, you know, when, when engineering
education was developed, it's right.
How do we marry industry with manufacturing?
Like, how do we make more things?
How do we make cheaper things?
Engineers have been wildly successful at doing this, right?
But now we are at the point where we have to ask, should we?
Right?
Should we keep doing this?
And, and, you know, and how do we address kind of the issues
that have been created already?
So do you see, um, students today having been equipped now with the
technical skills that they have and, you know, these, you know, ideas
of, you know, what's, what are the big wicked problems in the world?
Um, do you still see that, you know, maybe some of them are?
You know, certainly still interested in going to get that job at Google
versus people who are doing more entrepreneurial stuff, or are they
just looking for opportunities?
Doesn't have to be entrepreneurship, but it might be about joining
organizations and companies that have a different kind of mission and purpose.
So where do you see that?
So, although I do think where, where students will go, right,
is, is kind of up to the students.
And, um, Right?
That's part of my goal in engineering education as well, is
to give the students agency, right?
And I don't expect that all students are going to want to work on these really
complex, societally relevant problems.
Um, right?
There are some that might work at Google their whole lives and,
you know, that's their choice.
That's what they want to do.
Um, but, yeah, I think, I, I do hope, though, that being exposed to this, more
students will be prepared to take on these problems, because I think that's a big
part of the issue is in the past, and, you know, even kind of right now, a lot
of students, right, who are just prepared with a very technical focus, you know,
don't have the kind of preparation they need to, like, make solving these kind
of problems even a possibility, right?
That's not an accessible option to them.
So, right, I, I think we're opening up that door and, you know, I, I think
though, based on what What the current generation of students is concerned with
that, yeah, we should, we should see more of them kind of going down that path.
But I do also think, don't you think it would be fair?
I mean, I feel like that we've beaten up on Google a lot here, but, you
know, don't you think it'd be fair to say that, um, We also need students
who will be working and running the future of Googles and Facebooks, etc.
But they would be the one who need to inject that sense of urgency to
privacy, respecting people's, you know, sort of, uh, data and, and
things of that nature too, right?
We need, we need them at all levels, really, don't we?
Yeah.
And, and that, you know, um, there's nothing wrong really working at
Google or whatnot, except that, you know, like they could be on the
team working on the right thing.
Yeah.
It feels like that that happens.
I mean, I still remember when, um, the person who, um, Pointed out what happened
at Facebook with, um, with a study that they had, um, on the impact of, you
know, social media on especially, uh, teenage, um, girls, um, and to that person
worked at Facebook, that person Wanted.
It was a woman, right?
I forgot her name.
Actually, I really shouldn't have.
I should look this up.
But, um, she worked at Facebook with that being her intention, not the
intention to be a whistleblower, to, to solve this problem.
And she was promised that that's what they were doing.
It was not until the fact that she realized that they weren't being
sincere in solving this problem.
In fact, they were going to sort of just.
Cover it up or, you know, knew it knew the office, the reports existence,
but then not do anything with it.
That's when she went and try to do the right thing.
But that person had to have that, this kind of mindset that you, you
were talking about before trying to figure out what's right and wrong.
What are the ethical and, and, and, and, you know, ways to, um, to be able to,
um, to probably just to face themselves and face the world, don't you think?Yeah.
And I think for sure, if we've, if we've got enough people with, you know, the.
With different mindsets and the big corporations, then we have the power to.
Change the direction of large corporations, too, right?
And it could be that I mean to me it's sad that in the last You know, it's sad
that there are industries like, you know, namely like things like oil and gas that
that found Something that is worth, you know, that is essentially, you know, worth
a lot of money, very, very valuable, but happens to also destroy our environment.
And then, you know, we have technology companies that have also then found
this thing that's very valuable.
And that is people's data, people's profile, people's preferences, but then
it destroys people's privacy, right?
And, you know, they have to resolve to tricking them into, you know,
giving up their data and privacy and making money off of that, right?
It almost feels like that the next generation of innovation could very
well be, Hey, look, this stuff is extremely valuable and it doesn't
destroy either people or the environment.
Right?
I mean, that probably just wasn't a consideration to be really frank.
I think that I don't, I genuinely don't believe that people in the
beginning Well, I mean, I'm being naive, but I don't believe that they
initially set out to destroy and benefit themselves at the same time.
I don't think that they could even plan it.
I think they just, you know, come across it and just rode the wave, right?
Until it became too late.
Well, maybe they didn't even know the effects, but right, they didn't.
Stop to consider the should, should we do things, right?
I'm just like, well, we are on the cusp of that a little bit now with AI.
Don't you think?
Yeah.
Yeah, sure.
I mean, AI has come a long way, like really quickly.
And it, it's a lot to figure out.
It's kind of terrifying, but, uh, but there's.
A lot of opportunity there too, and figuring out the, the boundaries of
it and you know, what, what should and shouldn't be done as a big
complicated issue that has to be looked at from a lot of different angles.
Yeah.
Not just the technology one, which says we know how to do this.
Right.
Yeah.
My hope, I'll tell you, my hope is it's Having, having spoken to a lot
of, you know, AI, um, engineers who actually have many of them say that,
you know what, you know, we made a lot of this stuff work, but we actually
don't know how the machine is making it work because it's too complicated for
them to even understand at this point, but what they, um, what seems to be.
My hope, the saving grace here is that, um, there is still time.
There's still a chance for not just the engineers, but for all humans who interact
with the machines, because the machines are not learning just from the engine.
In fact, they can't learn just from the engineer because they need a
vast amount of data to learn from.
So they're really learning from society, but.
It's really from society that gives them ideas of what ethics look like, what
values, you know, we, we, what, what are the human values that make, make
the species special, you know, um, and what happiness look like and, and so on.
Yeah.
But a big part of the risk is, does the data represent everybody?
Yeah, right now, probably.
Well, that's, that's one of the problems too, is that.
We have a disproportionate amount of data that was generated in recent years, um,
to available data in the world, right?
Like, we don't have nearly as much data.
I mean, I, I think that someone said that, you know, YouTube alone generates
by megabytes more data in any one day than probably the last century combined, right?
And that's probably, I don't know whether that's an exaggeration, but
that wouldn't surprise me at all, right?
Um, first it was video versus, you know, but regardless, the point really is that
there is a lot more data being generated like disproportionately every minute.
You know, now than before, so, you know, like, um, there's got to be
some kind of bias built into that, um, for, for AI to learn from, but,
but, but exactly to what I'm hoping for is, you know, it's engineers
and students, because it's not all engineering students at Bucknell, right?
But all students from places like Bucknell, whether you take on an
engineering position or, you know, something else, are the ones.
Who will either in the side of the creation of these new technologies
and machines and, and, and, and, and intelligence, um, or they are in
the side of just being a, you know, a responsible part of the community
and society, a member of that to.
Behave and, and, um, contribute to and to teach, you know, ethically and,
and, and with, with the understanding of these kind of, you know, um, uh,
uh, these, um, uh, current issues that allows for, um, technology, whether
it be AI powered or not to, to have a bias more towards the side that,
that won't destroy us in the future.
Yeah.
Um, well, do you have anything that you want to say to wrap up?
I think, um, thank you so much for spending so much time with me so far.
I don't know.
We've, we've went a long ways, but yeah, I'm, I'm really excited
about like ePortfolios and now integrating those with STEM can.
Help our students narrate, you know, their, their paths and, and think about
what they want to do and maybe, you know, shift, shift the trajectory of
where we're going and, and make it so that yes, they don't destroy us all.
I know that you're going to be too polite to plug, but I'm
going to make a plug for you.
Okay.
And for Bucknell.
I think for.
All the institutions, all the people who are in power in their respective
institutions who previously had this idea that STEM students aren't built
to do portfolios because they are, you know, we, you can't reach to that.
You can't reach them.
They are doing this.
You know, sort of, you know, your, your own idea of what a
STEM education may look like.
I think you, after this conversation, hopefully you can think again.
I think you should go and look at what Bucknell has done.
Reach out to, um, uh, Rebecca and maybe her colleagues that will be
featuring many of them, um, to, to try to understand and keep an open mind to
understand that, um, You know, um, uh, there's a lot to be learned from the
STEM fields and they also are taking a lot of what you take for granted of
your students, you know, in the liberal arts or in the humanities, et cetera.
And there's actually a lot more similarities than there are differences.
And in fact, um, don't discount them.
And if you are in a institution where your engineering program is not.
Um, currently practicing these things, really think twice about it.
I think that that could have tremendous impact to society and the world.
How's that?
I agree.
That sounds great.
All right, Rebecca, um, it is lovely to chat with you.
Thanks for spending the time with me again and, uh, yeah, and, uh,
let's, uh, let's talk again soon.
Okay.
Sounds great.
All right.
Bye.
Take care.
Bye.