Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.
I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Anke: Hello and welcome, Peggy.
I'm super excited to have you here.
Well, thank you so much.
I'm super excited to be here.
And we're just saying we need to give a shout out to Kathy for the introduction.
So I'm pretty sure she'll be listening.
So before we dive into our very juicy topic, um, let people know where you're
based and what's your business with dogs?
Peggy: Oh, well, thank you for asking.
Um, I am actually based in two places.
So I'm currently in Virginia, um, but I also have a home in Florida and
that's where my law office is located.
So I bounce back and forth between, uh, the two states and, um,
meanwhile, my eight dogs are living in Virginia along with my cat and
my four horses and my husband.
So In that order, right?
Right, exactly.
Always been a huge pet lover.
Um, I think I was not even a year old when I asked for my first horse,
but, um, didn't get horses until I was 10, but I've always been
surrounded by dogs and cats and just a huge animal lover from the get go.
Anke: Oh, I love that.
I love that.
So now I always love it.
Specifically when passions merge, right?
So because that sounds to me like, correct me if I'm wrong, but it
feels to me that's what you did when you start talking about pet trusts.
Peggy: Absolutely.
So I had this desire, as a lot of people do, to write a book, and so I didn't know
what I was going to write on, and I had been practicing law in the areas of Wills
Trust and Estates for a long time, and I was brainstorming with a friend, and he
said, well, you should write about pet trust, because that's something that you
love, and it was exactly the right advice.
And And so I wrote a book about planning for your pets, making sure that our pets
have a safe and forever home in the event that something happens to us, either
we pass away or we become disabled.
I think the mistake we make as pet owners is we always think that
we're going to outlive our pets.
And, um, that's not always true, and especially if you're a pet lover.
Um, we tend to get more pets as the ones we lose pass away.
Um, we tend to replenish that because we have that hole in our heart that can only
be filled by the love of another dog.
Anke: So true, isn't that so true?
And I mean I've I've certainly had that that sense.
It's like well, I don't really care if I die.
That's all right, you know It's just like oh my god, what
happens to the dogs, right?
And uh, yeah funny actually a friend of mine around the corner
She's got six dogs And then she'll sometimes look after others.
So there, but there's like, yeah, one just passed.
And so there's this, well, we're not going to get any more dogs.
Well, unless there's somebody like, unless there's one in real need, you know, so
I was like, yeah, I wouldn't put my hand anywhere to, you know, so there's a good
chance that she'll have another dog.
So that's, yeah.
And I think there'll always be one that looks at you, you know, so it
does make sense, but can you Like what it means to have a pet trust.
Peggy: Sure, absolutely.
So people are used to maybe thinking about trust for themselves.
For their children, for people who might have special needs, but
we tend to forget about our pets.
And we have this idea that if something happens to us that just miraculously
our family or our friends are going to step forward and volunteer
to take on this responsibility that we made a commitment to.
And yet we know that that's not really true because Hundreds of, literally
thousands of animals end up euthanized in animal shelters annually because
their pet parents didn't have a plan for what was going to happen to them.
So, I started thinking about this topic in depth.
And in the United States, all 50 states and the District of Columbia have
statutes that permit the creation of a pet for the, I mean, the creation
of a trust for the benefit of a pet where the pet is the beneficiary.
Historically, Um, you couldn't have a non human as the beneficiary of a trust,
but with the change in the laws, um, that really opened the door for people
to be able to do planning for their pets.
And the thing that I always talk to people about is, these are the
really important things, is figure out who you trust to take care of
your pets on a short term basis.
And then figure out who you trust to take care of your pets on a long term basis.
And it might be the same people, but I want you, I want people to
think through both of those, because it might not be the same people.
And we want to make sure that if the people we've chosen are either unable
or unwilling to serve at that time, that we have some alternate sources.
So I like to go three deep if we can.
And, um, sometimes people aren't enough and we have to pick
organizations as our final choice.
So that's really where we get started Anke.
Anke: Oh, that's that makes so much sense.
Now the interesting piece is I, I heard head trust and my first thing was my,
my first, my, my mind went like, okay, so you basically save up money for that.
Is money a part of it or, or, but not the primary part is from
what I understand you just said.
So,
Peggy: you're right.
I mean, it is definitely part of it because if somebody left you their four
dogs, um, it might be nice if they also left you some money for their care.
So, we all know how much it costs to take care of our animals, and that's
not necessarily a responsibility we would want to put on somebody else
without providing some assistance in the form of financial assistance.
So thinking about how much money you want to leave for the benefit of your
pets is also really, really important.
And I think that traditionally people underfund, um, how much
they should leave for their pets.
And what I try to get people to think about is, how much do you
spend to take care of your pets now?
Figure that out to be an annual number per animal or per dog and then multiply
that by an extraordinarily long lifetime.
So if you think your dog is going to live for 15 years, I say assume
they're going to live to be 20.
Um, so that you have that cushion built in and that way if there's an emergency
or if there's a surgery that we didn't count on, we've got those extra funds.
And I'd always rather see somebody overfund, so leave too much
money, than not enough money.
And then I like to encourage people to leave whatever's left, after the
pets have been properly cared for, to their favorite animal charity.
Hmm, yeah, that makes,
Anke: that makes so much sense.
Now I'm also curious about, like, how do you go about or what do
you take into consideration when you choose the people, right?
So I'm now thinking like, okay, the, you know, because you say
like people you trust, right?
That's where for me personally, it gets a little difficult, right?
Because there's lots of people that I really like and I wouldn't
trust with my dogs, right?
So, my parents, who I would fully trust with my dogs, yeah, but You know,
they're at an age and, you know, so where it's like I can't trust that they'll
be there when, you know, whatever.
So, so also, like, do you have, like, what does the conversation need to look like?
And, you know, with, and what's the difference between the short
term and the long term care?
Peggy: So, um, that, those are really good questions because, number one,
we should be having conversations with the people that we choose.
We don't want it to be a surprise, like you get a phone call and go, oh, hi,
you're now going to be responsible for all of Anke's dogs, and congratulations.
Um, Yeah, we want to have that conversation.
So sometimes short term just means like, okay, we find out that
something's happened to you and now we've got to make some immediate
provisions to take care of the dogs.
That could be in a boarding facility, that could be with a pet sitter that
you trust that could come to your house for a period of time, but maybe those
aren't the situations where you would want your dogs to reside long term.
So let's say your parents don't live near you and we needed to
get those animals transported.
to wherever it is that your parents live.
So when you're thinking about a trust, a trust is a legal construct, really.
So it's a written document that essentially has a couple of parties.
It has you as the person who creates the trust, the trustmaker.
It has the trustees, and that would be you during your lifetime, but others in
the event of your disability or death.
And then for your pets, you've got the short term and the long term
pet caregivers, and then you've got your remainder beneficiaries.
But the trustees are the people that are really doing the oversight for what's
going on month to month, year to year, with the animals and with the money.
So sometimes people want to name the same people as the trustees and the
pet caregivers, and that's fine if you really, really trust those people, but
you've got the same person providing care who's overseeing the money and
maybe that's not the best decision.
Anke: I was just thinking about that, like, that's all, like, what if
somebody goes, Oh yeah, I'll do it.
And then they take the money, go on a holiday and, and, you
know, don't care for the dogs.
Right.
So they, that's why, why there is that other, like, in theory, that
other person in between who just keeps an eye on making sure that it's
actually being acted on as planned.
Peggy: So, it just builds in an extra layer of protection.
Um, an example I always give is the one where, let's say that I wanted
to leave all of my dogs to my sister, Anne, along with the sum of money.
If I just make that as an outright distribution, okay, Anne, here's my
dogs, here's my, here's the money.
She could do just exactly as you suggested.
She could say, thank you for the money, drop the dogs off at the
nearest shelter, and, you know, be done with the whole affair.
Um, but, if I want to make sure that the money's being used for their
proper care, I probably shouldn't put her in charge of the money.
Or, I should add a second person, um, as a co trustee to help facilitate that.
Anke: I mean, in your experience, like, do the, like, do people
honor those, those agreements?
Is that, like You know, I'm just over like a little bit like, oh god
in Spain, I wouldn't know whether somebody even like, yeah, whatever
piece of paper will do, you know.
Peggy: So, um, I think depending on state law, um, or the law of your jurisdiction,
whether or not pet trusts are recognized, there are lots of opportunities to
enter into less legal agreements.
So maybe just a contract as opposed to a trust.
Um, But yes, I think overall people do honor those and recognize them
as legally binding agreements.
And there's been some litigation though.
So as you can imagine, there's a very famous case in the United States
involving Leona Helmsley, who was one of the founders of a large hotel chain.
And when she died, she left her dog.
Aptly named trouble.
Um, $13 million, and a judge stepped in and said that he thought that
$13 million was too much for a dog.
And so they reduced the amount of money that was being left for Trouble's benefit.
Couple of things here.
Number one, I don't think it was the judge's prerogative to
decide what the proper number was.
I mean, he exercised that jurisdiction, obviously.
But it was Leona Helmsley's money and she should be able to leave however much
she wants for the benefit of her dog.
The problem was there were people involved.
And so the people were the ones that challenged the trust.
Obviously, the dog didn't, um, walk into court and say, hey,
I think 13 million is too much.
Right?
So it was the people that got involved.
And so I think you have to balance.
What you're leaving for the purpose and that's why I always suggest a charity as
the final beneficiary instead of people because I don't like to give people an
incentive to, um, not follow your wishes.
Anke: Yeah, no, that makes, that makes sense.
I mean, would you, I don't know how many
people usually have who they would trust with their dogs, like, but I personally,
I'm very much like, okay, there's like very few people on this earth who I trust
with my dogs, you know, where I'm from.
I would be sure that they're not just capable of taking care of
them, but they'd also want them,
Peggy: you
Anke: know, so, because you don't want to throw these people under
the bus either, you know, like, just sort of dump that responsibility on
them when they've not, not chosen it.
So what kind of organization, when you say, well, okay, as a last resort, when
you say, you know, because that also takes the pressure off, like, say, if
I have a first level person that I'm thinking, like, okay, I'd love you
to Take care of the dogs, you know, but if they for some reason can't do
it, or they also feel like they have a bit of a way out, so it's not like,
okay, you're, that's your problem now.
What kind of, because that's the thing, I wouldn't want to, wouldn't
want them to end up in some, you know, shelter or something, right?
So it's almost like, what kind of organizations or like, who would
you suggest to be the, you know, You know, bucket kind of at the end.
There are
Peggy: lots of animal organizations these days who are developing programs
for the long term care of people's pets.
These include rescues, shelters, some universities through their veterinary
school programs have started some programs for long term care for pets.
I created an organization called Animal Care Trust USA you Um, just
for that purpose to act as trustee and or to provide, um, permanent
placement for animals through a network.
There are organizations that we call perpetual care facilities.
That really that's what they're designed to do is to provide this lifetime care.
In some instances, it may not be the lifestyle that your pet would be used
to because you want them to maybe live in a more home like environment.
So, Not going to be a suitable suggestion for everybody.
I'm one of those crazy people, Anke, that when I die, I don't want my dogs
or my cat or my horses to have to move.
I want them to live in my house, and then I want the pet caregiver
to come and live at my house and take care of my animals, so that
the only thing that's missing is me.
that their life really, they're still in their,
Anke: oh, I hadn't even thought of that.
Yeah.
Peggy: Yeah.
So that their life really goes on unchanged except for.
Who's doing the walking, the cleaning the feed bowls, providing the food,
taking them to the vet, um, doing their, you know, daily care routines.
Um, and so it is difficult to find people that you trust, but I challenge
people to develop relationships with younger people who really love pets.
Um, a good source are the veterinary technicians that work at, you know, Um,
your vet's office, because as a general rule, those people are going to be younger
and Um, obviously they love pets or they wouldn't be working in that role.
Anke: That's such a, that's such a good idea to even think
in that direction, right?
To not just sort of scan, like in my mind, I'm sort of
scanning my contact book, right?
Just like, who would I, you know, Jesus, you know?
And, um, yeah, but to actually cultivate relationships for that.
Yeah.
Oh, well that makes, and I guess that, you know, you think about if
you have, uh, somebody who's studying, well they'd love to have a place
to stay, you know, it's like, yeah.
Right.
Peggy: I had the opportunity to speak at PetSitters International, which again
is a great organization for people to look to, but I asked the question to
the audience, um, who here would be willing to move into someone else's
house if you knew all of the expenses were going to be provided for you?
in order to care for their dogs or their cat or their bunny rabbits or their
horses and um, I would say more than 50 percent of the room their hands shot up.
I'm pretty sure, yeah, I'd be lying,
Anke: yeah.
That makes, that's, yeah, that makes it so much, it feels so
much more doable like that.
You know, because that's the thing.
It's like, if I'm the only crazy dog person in my family, you know, I'm
thinking like I might not have somebody in my immediate family, my, like, if I
take my, my parents, for example, they love dogs and they consciously don't have
one because they love traveling more.
Even if we took the age out of the equation here, you know, they love my
dogs, they wouldn't be keen to have them because then they can't go anywhere.
Right.
So it's.
It's um, a whole different direction to look into, which
I think makes a lot more sense.
Peggy: Yeah, and, and even, you're exactly right.
I mean, even if we have people that love our dogs, um, They may not have
a lifestyle that would be conducive to providing them with the kind of
care that you would want them to have.
Um, maybe they live in an apartment and you want your dogs to live on a piece
of property where they have room to run.
Um, so you always, you have to take all of those things into consideration
and that's why it's so important too to have those multiple layers
of people because We never know what somebody's circumstances are going to
be at that relevant moment in time.
Anke: Yeah, and I think the biggest thing I see is to even
start thinking in that direction.
Like, You know, it's like build that network.
It's like when you go on LinkedIn, right?
You can't stop building a network when you already need a job, right?
So you need to cultivate those relationships before you need them.
And I think it's the same here.
So you don't want to like scramble like crazy, like, okay, now I can't
take care of my dog, well, if I'm dead, then I can't even do anything anymore.
And so you need to think about that before you need it.
Peggy: Absolutely, well in advance of need and as a general rule, I think people are
really optimistic because we always say, when I win the lottery, and if I die, and,
and so we forget that we really do have to plan for that eventuality when we die.
And, you know, our things are unimportant, but our pets are.
are living, breathing, loving, sentient beings that we have made
a lifetime commitment to and so we owe it to them to continue that
commitment on into the future.
Anke: Yeah, no, that makes, that makes so much sense.
Yeah, it goes kind of like, oh yeah, I hadn't even thought of, you know, the,
the house sitter and then also looking at like consciously looking at younger
people because yeah, that's the thing.
If I look at my parents, well, oh, that's kind of worse, right?
So that doesn't, and, and friends tend to be sort of the same age.
So, you know, that's, you know, maximum like that first layer.
So you definitely want some younger people in the mix that it makes.
Peggy: Yeah, so every time you go to the vet, you have to take the
vet techs out for lunch, right, or bring donuts or something to get on
their good side and start developing that relationship with these younger
people, or by joining some, you know, animal related clubs or organizations
where, um, you might be exposed to folks that have a similar interest.
Anke: So maybe
Peggy: you could enter into an agreement with somebody that says, well, if you
take my dogs, I'll take your dogs,
Anke: right?
Yeah, totally.
Totally.
I was just thinking like, well, I could do that with my friend
and then I could easily end up with six more and then I'll get
Peggy: you.
Well, if she leaves you the money, then there you go.
Get a bigger place and, um, you have a happy dog farm.
Anke: Totally, totally.
I wouldn't mind actually.
Yeah, that's funny because that's also the other piece like, you know, when
you think about it, when you think about even when you go on holiday or something
like to kind of find a place to stay for one dog is always one thing, right?
You know, but like, what do you do with eight?
Peggy: Well, right, yeah.
So I used to travel from Florida to Virginia with six dogs.
This is before I, um, my farm was ready here in Virginia and Six dogs.
We had to drive non stop because I always jokingly said I don't have
any friends who like me enough to let me stay over with six dogs, right?
Anke: Yeah, no, that's the thing, is that you have to, I don't know,
like a camper van or something where you can all sleep in it.
It's the only way to go, right?
Peggy: Yeah, that's exactly right.
Or if you tried to stay, and we have tried this, staying at like a Airbnb,
um, You know, the dogs are out of sorts because they're not in their home
environment and they're very nervous.
So, for us, it just became easier to drive straight through.
Um, and the dogs were perfect angels the whole way.
They slept most of the time.
Here we were driving and driving and driving for hours on end just to make sure
that they were not gonna be uncomfortable.
Right.
Anke: Yeah.
Well, all the stuff we thought we do for our dogs, right.
Right,
Peggy: exactly.
Anke: So, so if somebody goes, well, hey, that makes sense.
I wanna start.
moving some things.
I want to get started.
I want to find out what's available and possible in my area.
So what's a good place for people to go and where they can they find
out about you and get in touch with you and you know make those
Peggy: lots of lots of places to start.
So I do have a book called All My Children Wear Fur Coats How
to Leave a Legacy for Your Pet.
So there's a lot of really good ideas in the book.
Secondarily, If you already have an estate plan, and I hope you do, um, you have an
attorney, perhaps, that you can talk to who would be aware of the laws in your
jurisdiction about planning for pets.
But I would caution people to work with people who are pet lovers, so that they
have that natural inclination to think about what would be best for pets.
And then, um, explore the alternatives.
Like, like you said, start developing those relationships and networks
with people who are younger that you know to be pet lovers.
Um, you know, use a pet sitter on a regular basis so you can develop that
relationship too, so that you have that short term caregiver at least, right?
Anke: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, absolutely we're gonna pop the link to the book
in the in the show notes and you know Make it easy for people to find you.
So thank you so much Like this was really eye opening and I'm thinking
Jesus like yeah We really have to all think about that because you can't just
you know Throw the closest people under the bus when something happens and or
leave your leave your dogs Unattended.
So that's, that's probably the worst thing that can happen.
Peggy: Yeah, you definitely don't want to leave it to chance.
You want to have a plan.
And I like to say that, uh, wishful thinking isn't planning,
Anke: right?
Not a strategy, right?
Love that.
Well, thank you so much.
This was an absolute delight and quite the eye opener, to be honest.
Like, yeah.
So definitely some, some work to do.
So thank you.
Thank you for filling us in.
You're
Peggy: so welcome.
Yeah.
Happy planning, right?
Exactly.
Thanks so much for listening.
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That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.