WEBVTT 00:00:03.060 --> 00:00:06.450 Matt Abrahams: At one level, effective communication boils down 00:00:06.450 --> 00:00:09.360 simply to making things accessible. 00:00:09.570 --> 00:00:14.370 Simplifying so people can understand, providing the context to help them learn, 00:00:14.520 --> 00:00:19.260 and allowing yourself to build curiosity to motivate people to pay attention. 00:00:19.800 --> 00:00:23.070 My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:23.070 --> 00:00:24.960 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:25.260 --> 00:00:28.784 Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:29.265 --> 00:00:32.685 Today I am really excited to be speaking with Adam Bryant. 00:00:33.074 --> 00:00:37.695 Adam is a senior managing director and a partner at the EXCO Group, and he 00:00:37.695 --> 00:00:41.355 is a former New York Times journalist and bestselling author, known for 00:00:41.355 --> 00:00:46.785 his Corner Office column where he interviewed over 500 CEOs and executives. 00:00:47.084 --> 00:00:51.285 His work focuses on demystifying leadership, identifying the key qualities 00:00:51.285 --> 00:00:55.695 of successful leaders, and translating those insights into actionable advice. 00:00:55.735 --> 00:00:59.425 For managers, he's the author of several books, including Quick 00:00:59.425 --> 00:01:02.095 and Nimble, and the CEO test. 00:01:02.485 --> 00:01:03.295 Welcome, Adam. 00:01:03.595 --> 00:01:05.660 I am really excited for our conversation. 00:01:06.390 --> 00:01:07.350 Adam Bryant: Great to be here, Matt. 00:01:07.350 --> 00:01:08.220 Thank you for the invite. 00:01:08.490 --> 00:01:09.810 Matt Abrahams: Alright, shall we get started? 00:01:09.990 --> 00:01:10.650 Adam Bryant: Let's do it. 00:01:10.980 --> 00:01:14.550 Matt Abrahams: You've documented the career journeys of countless leaders. 00:01:14.850 --> 00:01:18.000 What are some of the specific patterns or trends you've identified 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:20.850 that have helped these leaders to be successful in their careers? 00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:23.400 Adam Bryant: It's something I think a lot about, and I've come up with 00:01:23.400 --> 00:01:25.410 my top three if you'll indulge me. 00:01:25.410 --> 00:01:29.300 So, the first one is the ability to simplify complexity, which I know is 00:01:29.300 --> 00:01:32.509 a topic that's near and dear to your heart, but I don't think you can be an 00:01:32.509 --> 00:01:34.759 effective leader if you can't do that. 00:01:34.850 --> 00:01:38.059 So much of leadership is like, there's a lot going on in the world, in your 00:01:38.059 --> 00:01:39.710 particular industry inside your company. 00:01:40.395 --> 00:01:44.175 I think it's a key leadership moment to be able to stand on a stage and 00:01:44.175 --> 00:01:47.475 say, this is where we're going, this is how we're gonna get there, and 00:01:47.535 --> 00:01:48.765 this is when we're gonna get there. 00:01:48.765 --> 00:01:50.025 what the timeline is. 00:01:50.295 --> 00:01:53.805 That's a high art of leadership, being able to simplify but 00:01:53.805 --> 00:01:55.785 not oversimplify complexity. 00:01:55.785 --> 00:01:56.835 So that's number one. 00:01:57.179 --> 00:01:59.940 I do think a lot about this word authenticity, which I think 00:01:59.940 --> 00:02:02.880 has become much more important just in the last several years. 00:02:02.940 --> 00:02:05.610 People want that and expect that from their leaders. 00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:07.800 Authenticity is one of those words that means a lot of different 00:02:07.800 --> 00:02:09.120 things to a lot of different people. 00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:14.730 The way I think about it is that you need to know what your values are and to be 00:02:14.730 --> 00:02:19.200 able to communicate them and not just in terms of fridge magnet poetry that, you 00:02:19.200 --> 00:02:22.705 know, integrity's in part, but to be able to say like I wanna share with you the 00:02:22.705 --> 00:02:24.205 three values that are important to me. 00:02:24.205 --> 00:02:27.960 I want to tell you the stories about how these became important to me. 00:02:28.635 --> 00:02:32.265 I want to tell you how these values show up in my leadership style day 00:02:32.265 --> 00:02:35.775 to day, so you know what to expect and you know where they come from. 00:02:35.775 --> 00:02:39.435 And to me like that's a big component of being an authentic leader. 00:02:39.765 --> 00:02:44.265 The final point I'll make is just leaders have to be comfortable in the balancing 00:02:44.265 --> 00:02:48.900 acts, the paradoxes, the contradictions of leadership because the thing about 00:02:48.900 --> 00:02:51.780 the leadership space, people are always looking for shortcuts and saying, 00:02:51.780 --> 00:02:55.620 leadership is about this one thing, and it's never about one thing, right? 00:02:55.620 --> 00:03:00.019 It's always about two things that are usually in tension. 00:03:00.180 --> 00:03:02.820 Part of your job as a leader is to create a sense of urgency 00:03:02.820 --> 00:03:04.440 while also being patient. 00:03:04.440 --> 00:03:07.329 Part of your job as a leader is to be compassionate, but 00:03:07.329 --> 00:03:09.350 also hold people accountable. 00:03:09.635 --> 00:03:12.995 You need to be a really good listener, but you also need to know when 00:03:12.995 --> 00:03:14.765 to say, folks, I made a decision. 00:03:14.765 --> 00:03:16.565 We're going left, we're not going right. 00:03:16.985 --> 00:03:21.425 And so just all those sort of gray areas, those balancing acts, I think that's 00:03:21.425 --> 00:03:25.415 another thing that you simply have to be able to do to be an effective leader. 00:03:25.770 --> 00:03:28.079 Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate you distilling that down. 00:03:28.079 --> 00:03:31.590 So it's to take complexity and make it accessible, simplify 00:03:31.590 --> 00:03:33.359 it, help people to prioritize. 00:03:33.540 --> 00:03:38.550 Authenticity, which is really about values and setting people's expectations for 00:03:38.550 --> 00:03:40.770 what you expect from them and yourself. 00:03:41.025 --> 00:03:44.595 And then this ability to deal with the dialectics and tensions 00:03:44.595 --> 00:03:45.555 that present themselves. 00:03:45.555 --> 00:03:49.245 We spent a whole episode talking with Rob Siegel, who I teach with, who wrote a book 00:03:49.245 --> 00:03:52.995 on system leadership, and you're right, there are so many tensions that we all 00:03:52.995 --> 00:03:54.855 have to deal with, especially leaders. 00:03:55.095 --> 00:03:55.905 That's critical. 00:03:56.144 --> 00:04:00.285 When you look back at the synthesis you've done, the career journeys that 00:04:00.285 --> 00:04:04.275 you've seen, is there a particular mistake or two that leaders tend to 00:04:04.275 --> 00:04:09.045 make, especially when it comes to communicating around themselves or 00:04:09.045 --> 00:04:12.945 their companies that you've seen that we could learn from and try to avoid? 00:04:13.305 --> 00:04:15.525 Adam Bryant: I do keep coming back to simplicity. 00:04:15.675 --> 00:04:19.035 So two things: one, simplicity and two repetition. 00:04:19.410 --> 00:04:23.970 I think for a lot of leaders, things tend to be very clear in leader's heads. 00:04:23.970 --> 00:04:27.270 In the work that I do at my firm, we coach senior leaders and usually 00:04:27.270 --> 00:04:30.690 there's a gap between how clear things are in the leader's head and 00:04:30.690 --> 00:04:32.790 how clear they are to everybody else. 00:04:32.940 --> 00:04:37.680 And look, earlier in my career when I was a reporter, I followed around a CEO for 00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:39.860 a couple of days doing a profile on them. 00:04:40.100 --> 00:04:42.830 And there was a moment where they stood on a stage in front of literally 00:04:42.830 --> 00:04:47.510 thousands of employees, and the first words were, I've got 11 things on my mind. 00:04:47.660 --> 00:04:51.050 And you could literally just feel the energy drain out of the room. 00:04:51.200 --> 00:04:54.050 And all the science shows that most people can't remember more than 00:04:54.050 --> 00:04:55.640 three or four things day to day. 00:04:55.840 --> 00:04:59.110 So I do think there's this learning curve that I've seen that I've heard 00:04:59.110 --> 00:05:02.830 a lot about in leaders, which is just, I have to keep simplifying. 00:05:02.830 --> 00:05:06.380 This from one of the CEOs I interviewed a guy named Marcus Ryu. 00:05:06.405 --> 00:05:09.490 He, he had this great expression that really stayed with me 00:05:09.490 --> 00:05:10.660 in terms of communication. 00:05:10.660 --> 00:05:14.440 I think about a lot myself when I give talks and my shorthand 00:05:14.470 --> 00:05:17.860 version of his theory is the Einstein Theory of Communication. 00:05:18.100 --> 00:05:22.300 And what he said is that you can have a room full of Einstein's, literally 00:05:22.300 --> 00:05:26.440 the smartest people on the planet, but there's something about the human 00:05:26.440 --> 00:05:31.030 brain that the bigger the audience, the more the collective IQ drops. 00:05:31.180 --> 00:05:32.770 So I think about that a lot. 00:05:32.770 --> 00:05:36.550 And so when you're giving talks like my advice is big fonts, a few 00:05:36.550 --> 00:05:38.800 bullet points, short sentences. 00:05:38.830 --> 00:05:42.280 Because yes, everybody in the audience is smart, but there's something 00:05:42.280 --> 00:05:45.965 about, as audiences get bigger, you have to keep it simpler and simpler. 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:49.320 So the second point I'll make is about repetition. 00:05:49.320 --> 00:05:52.620 And again, I've heard this a lot from leaders as part of their learning curve. 00:05:52.920 --> 00:05:54.570 You're like, why do I have to say this again? 00:05:54.570 --> 00:05:57.960 I just said it at the last town hall, and you have to say it again. 00:05:58.230 --> 00:06:01.110 You've gotta say it seven times, seven different ways 00:06:01.110 --> 00:06:02.550 for people to hear you once. 00:06:02.925 --> 00:06:07.035 I love the rule that I heard from one CEO, which is you have to get comfortable with 00:06:07.035 --> 00:06:10.695 people almost teasing you because they know exactly what you're going to say. 00:06:10.875 --> 00:06:12.435 And when you do that, you've got them. 00:06:12.435 --> 00:06:16.125 But just being comfortable in the sense of like, folks, you've heard this before. 00:06:16.305 --> 00:06:18.885 It's important to say it again, let's reset on our 00:06:18.885 --> 00:06:20.565 strategy, et cetera, et cetera. 00:06:20.940 --> 00:06:23.370 Matt Abrahams: This notion of distilling things down so people 00:06:23.370 --> 00:06:24.750 can really understand them. 00:06:24.900 --> 00:06:28.740 I like the term accessibility over simplicity, simply because sometimes 00:06:28.740 --> 00:06:32.610 simplicity implies dumbing something down, and I'm not a big proponent 00:06:32.610 --> 00:06:36.240 of that, but making it accessible so people really understand, helping 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:37.890 them prioritize, see what's important. 00:06:38.099 --> 00:06:41.010 And you're right, we suffer from the curse of knowledge and sometimes the 00:06:41.010 --> 00:06:45.090 curse of passion, and that leads us to say much more and get into the 00:06:45.090 --> 00:06:47.130 weeds in a way that actually detracts. 00:06:47.130 --> 00:06:50.840 So I love this idea of, really focus on keeping it simple. 00:06:50.840 --> 00:06:54.590 And you're right, the more people that you're communicating with, just because of 00:06:54.590 --> 00:06:58.910 the diversity of experience and knowledge, I do think you have to really focus on 00:06:58.910 --> 00:07:00.620 accessibility, the larger the group. 00:07:00.800 --> 00:07:02.540 And then this notion of repetition. 00:07:02.630 --> 00:07:06.230 I also coach people, you have to say it over and over again, not 00:07:06.230 --> 00:07:08.420 necessarily in exactly the same words. 00:07:08.670 --> 00:07:10.470 Maybe you say it and then you give an example. 00:07:10.470 --> 00:07:14.070 You show a statistic, you use an image, whatever, but you do really have to 00:07:14.070 --> 00:07:16.050 reinforce for people to understand. 00:07:16.350 --> 00:07:19.410 And I like that test, if people start teasing you for it, then you've 00:07:19.410 --> 00:07:22.620 probably done enough repetition, and I think that's important. 00:07:22.860 --> 00:07:24.090 You've written several books. 00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:28.890 Your book, The CEO Test outlines some critical challenges leaders face. 00:07:29.070 --> 00:07:31.140 One of these is, can the leader really listen? 00:07:31.140 --> 00:07:34.500 What advice do you have for leaders and for all of us really to better listen. 00:07:34.775 --> 00:07:39.485 Adam Bryant: I think the first point is be aware that people may be coming to 00:07:39.485 --> 00:07:44.285 you or probably coming to you with side agendas that they may not necessarily 00:07:44.285 --> 00:07:46.325 want to tell you that there's a problem. 00:07:46.594 --> 00:07:50.045 There's that famous expression about, be careful about how your jokes 00:07:50.045 --> 00:07:53.960 become funny when you become a leader and people don't really want to go 00:07:53.960 --> 00:07:55.835 to the boss to bring them bad news. 00:07:55.925 --> 00:07:59.405 So just this awareness that you're actually trapped in an information bubble. 00:07:59.405 --> 00:08:02.805 And this is the contradiction to me of the CEO role, which is that. 00:08:03.130 --> 00:08:07.060 You have access to more lines of communication than anybody else in the 00:08:07.060 --> 00:08:11.650 company, but all those lines are probably compromised in terms of the accuracy 00:08:11.650 --> 00:08:12.909 of the signal that you're getting. 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:15.219 So the first step is to be aware of that. 00:08:15.460 --> 00:08:19.480 And then the second thing is to build up literally almost a listening 00:08:19.690 --> 00:08:24.435 infrastructure so that you could find out what's really going on in the company. 00:08:24.435 --> 00:08:28.095 And that comes from making sure that you've got those confidants that 00:08:28.095 --> 00:08:32.294 are going to be straight with you when people do give you difficult 00:08:32.294 --> 00:08:34.365 news that you thank them for it. 00:08:34.365 --> 00:08:38.775 So that word gets out that you actually get points for telling the 00:08:38.775 --> 00:08:41.804 boss something they might not wanna hear, rather than getting in trouble. 00:08:41.804 --> 00:08:44.084 Because that word spreads really quickly. 00:08:44.355 --> 00:08:45.405 I often tell the story. 00:08:45.405 --> 00:08:50.084 So the book I wrote, The CEO Test was with Kevin Sharer was the former CEO of Amgen, 00:08:50.355 --> 00:08:52.485 and he was very aware of this phenomenon. 00:08:52.485 --> 00:08:56.775 And so on the annual employee survey, the last question on the survey for 00:08:56.775 --> 00:09:00.839 everybody was the question, what do you think of the job Kevin is doing? 00:09:01.110 --> 00:09:02.850 And it was an open field. 00:09:02.880 --> 00:09:05.490 People could do it anonymously or sign their name. 00:09:05.730 --> 00:09:09.089 Basically saying like, I need to know what you're thinking. 00:09:09.089 --> 00:09:12.839 And he said he would gather all those and read them just to make sure that 00:09:12.839 --> 00:09:14.220 you're getting the straight feedback. 00:09:14.220 --> 00:09:18.060 Because history is full of companies that got into trouble because people on the 00:09:18.060 --> 00:09:21.240 front lines knew there was a problem, but nobody wanted to tell the bosses. 00:09:21.599 --> 00:09:26.520 Matt Abrahams: I really like this idea of reminding yourself, uh, being aware that 00:09:26.520 --> 00:09:29.069 there might be some other issue going on. 00:09:29.069 --> 00:09:31.020 So what's the question behind the question? 00:09:31.020 --> 00:09:34.229 What's the feedback behind the feedback and seeking that out? 00:09:34.319 --> 00:09:37.680 And not just paying attention to what is said, but perhaps why 00:09:37.740 --> 00:09:39.689 it might be said in that way. 00:09:40.020 --> 00:09:43.319 And I really like this notion of listening infrastructure. 00:09:43.589 --> 00:09:46.740 So it's about having trusted others who can give you insight. 00:09:46.740 --> 00:09:50.040 It's about rewarding people who do come forward. 00:09:50.160 --> 00:09:54.090 I would add it's being specific in the type of information you want. 00:09:54.090 --> 00:09:58.050 Often we don't ask specifically, and when you ask for something 00:09:58.050 --> 00:10:01.830 specific, you are likely to get it versus a more general ask. 00:10:02.190 --> 00:10:05.340 I appreciate that guidance and we can all make sure that we do that. 00:10:05.400 --> 00:10:08.100 And I think another factor there, and I'd love to get your opinion on this, 00:10:08.250 --> 00:10:12.120 is demonstrating that you actually listened, not just thanking somebody for 00:10:12.120 --> 00:10:16.410 it, but maybe paraphrasing or delineating the action you're taking as a result. 00:10:16.530 --> 00:10:17.760 Is that important as well? 00:10:18.505 --> 00:10:19.225 Adam Bryant: Oh for sure. 00:10:19.225 --> 00:10:22.575 And to your point, it's not just, I hear you, but I think the most 00:10:22.575 --> 00:10:27.105 powerful thing is thanking them for that and then acting on it, right? 00:10:27.105 --> 00:10:30.495 Because again, the word spreads very quickly in culture. 00:10:30.825 --> 00:10:33.315 And if somebody has an experience where I went to the boss, gave 00:10:33.315 --> 00:10:36.725 'em some tough news, they thank me for it, and they acted on it. 00:10:37.085 --> 00:10:40.665 And now I've got like a gold star on my forehead because of that experience. 00:10:40.665 --> 00:10:42.195 Like people are go, I'm gonna do that too. 00:10:42.525 --> 00:10:45.735 Matt Abrahams: We've talked a bit about simplifying complex information. 00:10:45.735 --> 00:10:49.395 As somebody who's done what you do, as somebody who's written about this now, 00:10:49.395 --> 00:10:52.725 as somebody who consults on this, do you have specific advice and guidance 00:10:52.725 --> 00:10:56.565 frameworks for how you take something complex and make it easier and more 00:10:56.565 --> 00:10:58.185 simple for people to understand? 00:10:58.185 --> 00:11:00.165 Do you have a tool that you recommend or use? 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:03.300 Adam Bryant: I don't have a simple tool, but I've had sort 00:11:03.300 --> 00:11:04.740 of two chapters in my career. 00:11:04.740 --> 00:11:08.490 One is 30 years as a journalist, 15 years as a reporter, where I was 00:11:08.490 --> 00:11:10.650 having to simplify complexity myself. 00:11:10.920 --> 00:11:14.670 And then 15 years as an editor where I was having to help the reporters 00:11:14.670 --> 00:11:17.190 I worked with simplify complexity. 00:11:17.190 --> 00:11:20.834 And now eight years in its consulting chapter where again this 00:11:20.834 --> 00:11:24.314 skill of simplifying complexity is so important for leadership. 00:11:24.314 --> 00:11:27.675 But just starting with clarity of what you want to say and what the 00:11:27.675 --> 00:11:30.165 message is, that's the hardest part. 00:11:30.194 --> 00:11:34.515 And it might even be painful, just like staring at a blank piece of paper or blank 00:11:34.515 --> 00:11:39.074 screen saying, what is it that I'm saying and that I want to say and need to say? 00:11:39.074 --> 00:11:41.115 And doing that thinking work. 00:11:41.339 --> 00:11:44.730 And then just understanding this simple thing about human nature, which is 00:11:44.730 --> 00:11:48.089 most people can't absorb or remember more than three or four things. 00:11:48.089 --> 00:11:52.650 So if you are going to distill it down and be tough with yourself, because 00:11:52.920 --> 00:11:56.219 you talked about it earlier, the dangers of oversimplifying, right? 00:11:56.219 --> 00:12:01.260 There is a sweet spot there of truly simplifying but not oversimplifying. 00:12:01.860 --> 00:12:07.935 I also sometimes think about how the word empathy has additional 00:12:07.935 --> 00:12:10.305 meanings that we typically talk about. 00:12:10.305 --> 00:12:12.075 Because we usually talk about empathy, it's like, I 00:12:12.075 --> 00:12:13.425 understand what you're feeling. 00:12:13.605 --> 00:12:17.805 But I also think that we need to talk more about empathy as a component 00:12:17.805 --> 00:12:21.375 of communication, because to be an effective communicator, whether it's 00:12:21.375 --> 00:12:25.395 a presenter or it's a writer, you have to be able to get in the head of the 00:12:25.395 --> 00:12:29.875 audience and be able to see what you're saying or writing with fresh eyes, 00:12:29.905 --> 00:12:31.709 and ask yourself, is this clear to me? 00:12:31.709 --> 00:12:32.939 Am I getting this? 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:37.140 Because usually people aren't good writers or communicators or speakers. 00:12:37.260 --> 00:12:38.819 They lack that ability, right? 00:12:38.819 --> 00:12:42.510 Like you don't seem to be able to understand how the audience is not going 00:12:42.510 --> 00:12:44.339 to be able to process what you're saying. 00:12:44.699 --> 00:12:48.810 So I think almost that forcing function of having that empathy, 00:12:48.930 --> 00:12:52.140 forcing yourself out of your own head, because we're all trapped by 00:12:52.140 --> 00:12:54.500 our own context, our own expertise. 00:12:54.930 --> 00:12:58.875 And imagine somebody receiving this information for the first time and 00:12:58.875 --> 00:13:00.704 making sure that it's clear to them. 00:13:00.704 --> 00:13:04.125 I mean, in all my years of working with writers after they submitted 00:13:04.125 --> 00:13:08.175 their story, I would sometimes say to them, you are suffering from the most 00:13:08.175 --> 00:13:10.724 noble disease of great journalists. 00:13:11.025 --> 00:13:13.045 You are suffering from expertitis. 00:13:13.155 --> 00:13:15.375 You are too close to this subject matter. 00:13:15.375 --> 00:13:20.265 You know too much about it, and you're having trouble resetting and getting in 00:13:20.265 --> 00:13:22.064 the head of somebody hitting it cold. 00:13:22.530 --> 00:13:25.560 And I think that's another way of thinking about this empathy. 00:13:25.560 --> 00:13:29.880 How do you take yourself out of your own expertise to see it through fresh eyes? 00:13:31.095 --> 00:13:33.584 Matt Abrahams: I love the term expertitis you know, when I do 00:13:33.584 --> 00:13:36.795 this work, I talk about the curse of knowledge and curse of passion. 00:13:36.795 --> 00:13:40.275 And I say the only antidote is empathy and curiosity, because 00:13:40.275 --> 00:13:41.685 those get you out of your head. 00:13:41.685 --> 00:13:46.245 And I 100% agree with you that effective communication is not broadcasting. 00:13:46.395 --> 00:13:49.635 Effective communication is making sure the other person understands what you 00:13:49.635 --> 00:13:52.905 meant, and the only way to do that is to see it from their perspective. 00:13:52.905 --> 00:13:54.675 So being audience-centric is critical. 00:13:54.975 --> 00:13:56.775 This notion of being tough on yourself. 00:13:56.785 --> 00:13:59.995 To really force yourself to be clear is important. 00:13:59.995 --> 00:14:04.314 And starting with that bottom line, really thinking through what is the key 00:14:04.314 --> 00:14:06.355 essence of what I want to get across. 00:14:06.564 --> 00:14:09.745 A lot of us start doing work before we really even understand 00:14:09.745 --> 00:14:12.655 what it is we're trying to say, we discover that along the way. 00:14:12.954 --> 00:14:16.405 And if we do that work up front, I think it just makes us more clear and concise. 00:14:16.405 --> 00:14:17.605 And I appreciate you sharing that. 00:14:18.074 --> 00:14:21.465 I have read a lot of your work, and I've enjoyed your work over the many years. 00:14:21.495 --> 00:14:24.795 And one of the things that I note that you do, and I'd love to know if this 00:14:24.795 --> 00:14:28.155 is just innate and you don't think about it or if it's strategic, you do 00:14:28.155 --> 00:14:32.025 a very good job of getting people's attention early and building that 00:14:32.025 --> 00:14:34.305 curiosity and motivation to learn more. 00:14:34.605 --> 00:14:38.444 That type of engagement upfront, especially in a world where our attention 00:14:38.444 --> 00:14:41.685 is being pulled in lots of different directions, is really important. 00:14:42.045 --> 00:14:45.315 How much of that is innate and can you walk us through a little bit 00:14:45.315 --> 00:14:48.555 of that because it's clear when you look at your body of work that 00:14:48.555 --> 00:14:49.935 that's something you do very well. 00:14:50.385 --> 00:14:53.295 Adam Bryant: So I started The Corner Office series at the New York Times. 00:14:53.295 --> 00:14:56.475 It was a side project in addition to my day job managing reporters. 00:14:56.625 --> 00:15:00.015 And it was based on a very simple, what if; I asked myself the question, what if 00:15:00.015 --> 00:15:04.065 I sat down with CEOs and never ask them a single question about their companies? 00:15:04.455 --> 00:15:06.165 And everything flows from that. 00:15:06.405 --> 00:15:10.965 And for the last 15 years, interviewing more than a thousand leaders, I stick to 00:15:10.965 --> 00:15:14.565 my swim lane of interviewing leaders about leadership and not about their companies. 00:15:14.565 --> 00:15:16.665 'cause most of the time when leaders are interviewed. 00:15:17.355 --> 00:15:19.365 They're interviewed as strategists, right? 00:15:19.365 --> 00:15:23.565 Like how does next quarter look, Bob, and, and to me, I'm much more interested 00:15:23.565 --> 00:15:28.485 in how you lead, how you navigate the universal challenges of leadership. 00:15:28.785 --> 00:15:31.910 And I think that the more I've gotten into this, the more. 00:15:32.680 --> 00:15:36.550 I'm just really intrigued with the humanity of leadership because who 00:15:36.550 --> 00:15:40.329 you are is how you lead, and when I was doing corner ops, I always 00:15:40.329 --> 00:15:42.040 started with the same few questions. 00:15:42.040 --> 00:15:44.770 Tell me about when you were a kid, what were you doing outside of class? 00:15:45.160 --> 00:15:48.790 Talk about your parents or whoever raised you and important early 00:15:48.790 --> 00:15:51.880 influences there, questions like that. 00:15:51.969 --> 00:15:54.795 The world tends to talk about children as young adults. 00:15:55.470 --> 00:15:57.510 I think adults are just older children. 00:15:57.780 --> 00:16:01.530 I'm always curious about those early stories because why do 00:16:01.680 --> 00:16:03.360 people want these jobs, right? 00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:07.440 Like, yes, there's all these material rewards and stuff, but like being a 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:12.030 CEO, nobody ever feels sorry for CEOs, but they're like really tough jobs. 00:16:12.330 --> 00:16:15.780 They come with a huge tax on your personal lives and stress and 00:16:15.780 --> 00:16:16.950 strain and all that other stuff. 00:16:17.040 --> 00:16:18.480 So why do people want these jobs? 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:21.180 And so I'm trying to ask questions that get at that. 00:16:21.579 --> 00:16:27.130 The final point I'll make, Matt, is that I generally boil down my q and as. 00:16:27.130 --> 00:16:30.339 The transcript is often like eight, 9,000 words, and I'll boil it 00:16:30.339 --> 00:16:32.890 down to 12, 1500 words, whatever. 00:16:33.040 --> 00:16:36.640 And early on I figured out the three things that to me are the most 00:16:36.640 --> 00:16:38.560 powerful currencies of leadership. 00:16:38.739 --> 00:16:42.040 So when I'm condensing it, I'm always looking to keep three things. 00:16:42.040 --> 00:16:45.099 One is an insight or lesson, right? 00:16:45.099 --> 00:16:46.239 I learned this. 00:16:46.660 --> 00:16:48.459 The second one is the story behind it. 00:16:48.459 --> 00:16:49.479 Back to stories. 00:16:49.540 --> 00:16:50.920 How did you learn this? 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:53.820 The third one is, okay, spin that forward. 00:16:53.820 --> 00:16:57.840 How did that insight, that lesson, how does that show up in your 00:16:57.840 --> 00:16:59.220 leadership style day to day? 00:16:59.955 --> 00:17:03.675 Matt Abrahams: I like that structure, and I actually think that structure is useful 00:17:03.765 --> 00:17:05.325 for anything we're trying to communicate. 00:17:05.325 --> 00:17:06.885 What is it that you're trying to say? 00:17:06.975 --> 00:17:07.605 Why? 00:17:07.665 --> 00:17:08.655 How'd you come to that? 00:17:08.655 --> 00:17:09.915 And then how does it influence you? 00:17:09.915 --> 00:17:11.805 I think that's a lovely structure. 00:17:12.015 --> 00:17:15.915 And the bottom line answer to my question that I heard you say is the way you 00:17:15.915 --> 00:17:18.885 motivate people to pay attention to the things you write and the stories you 00:17:18.885 --> 00:17:23.995 tell is based on your curiosity and that curiosity comes through in what you do. 00:17:24.265 --> 00:17:27.055 And curiosity is a very powerful engagement tool. 00:17:27.055 --> 00:17:30.805 If you can get people to feel curious, you know, in, in college I was a tour guide. 00:17:30.805 --> 00:17:33.595 It was the highest paying job I could get, and I learned so much about 00:17:33.595 --> 00:17:38.095 communication and what I learned is if I wanted my group to stay together and 00:17:38.095 --> 00:17:42.415 not wander off and leave and ultimately give poor ratings to the experience. 00:17:42.745 --> 00:17:46.045 If I could build curiosity from where we've been to where we were going 00:17:46.045 --> 00:17:47.955 next, that changed the whole thing. 00:17:47.955 --> 00:17:49.035 They wanted to move forward. 00:17:49.035 --> 00:17:51.435 They were interested, they asked more questions. 00:17:51.435 --> 00:17:55.845 So being curious yourself, I think leads very nicely to communicating 00:17:55.965 --> 00:17:57.465 from a place of curiosity. 00:17:57.465 --> 00:17:59.055 So I appreciate you saying that. 00:17:59.295 --> 00:17:59.565 Adam Bryant: Yeah. 00:17:59.595 --> 00:18:02.205 I've learned so much from all the leaders I've interviewed. 00:18:02.205 --> 00:18:04.395 I mean life wisdom, not just leadership wisdom. 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:08.610 One of the most powerful things I heard from one leader was that, and 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:12.390 she was the university president, her advice to students is basically just 00:18:12.390 --> 00:18:16.410 to go through life in the way that at any moment you could learn the 00:18:16.410 --> 00:18:17.940 most important lesson of your life. 00:18:18.390 --> 00:18:21.900 This could be the moment where I learn the most important lesson in my life. 00:18:22.410 --> 00:18:24.510 Matt Abrahams: That is a very valuable lesson, and I think we 00:18:24.510 --> 00:18:26.100 should all follow that for sure. 00:18:27.450 --> 00:18:30.480 Well, Adam, before we end, I like to ask three questions of everyone. 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:33.360 One I make up for you and the other two I've been asking everybody as 00:18:33.360 --> 00:18:35.280 long as this series has been around. 00:18:35.490 --> 00:18:36.210 Are you up for that? 00:18:36.780 --> 00:18:37.290 Adam Bryant: Always. 00:18:37.560 --> 00:18:38.010 Matt Abrahams: All right. 00:18:38.010 --> 00:18:41.220 From all of your years of interviewing leaders for your Corner Office 00:18:41.220 --> 00:18:45.600 column, what was the most surprising communication, insight or piece of advice 00:18:45.600 --> 00:18:47.820 you heard that fundamentally impacted you? 00:18:48.419 --> 00:18:52.050 Adam Bryant: I think it's this idea of who you are is how you lead. 00:18:52.199 --> 00:18:57.540 Because before I started doing all the interviews, I was trapped in that idea, 00:18:57.540 --> 00:19:00.719 like there's different leadership styles and what kind of leader are you itinerary 00:19:01.020 --> 00:19:03.030 books about different leadership styles. 00:19:03.310 --> 00:19:06.290 And, what I learned through interviewing all these leaders and hearing their 00:19:06.290 --> 00:19:11.175 stories, and then seeing the direct line between, okay, this is how I grew 00:19:11.175 --> 00:19:15.615 up, and the important influences, it really shaped me, and that is how I lead. 00:19:15.705 --> 00:19:18.794 I think a lot of people, when they move into new leadership roles, there's a 00:19:18.794 --> 00:19:20.865 sense of, okay, what is gonna be my style? 00:19:20.865 --> 00:19:24.165 It's like trying on different jackets to see if they're gonna fit. 00:19:24.284 --> 00:19:28.125 And so I always say to people like, who you are is how you lead. 00:19:28.125 --> 00:19:33.405 Be self-aware about all the things that influence your leadership style, and then 00:19:33.405 --> 00:19:35.565 be explicit about that with your team. 00:19:35.774 --> 00:19:36.105 Right. 00:19:36.365 --> 00:19:39.725 People, they just want that sense of trust and vulnerability and 00:19:39.725 --> 00:19:43.895 authenticity 'cause people can smell it a mile away if you're not comfortable 00:19:43.895 --> 00:19:47.254 in your skin and you're trying to pretend to be somebody you're not. 00:19:47.764 --> 00:19:51.095 Matt Abrahams: So taking the time to really reflect on who you are, what's 00:19:51.095 --> 00:19:55.295 important to you, how you got to where you are, and then be very clear with others. 00:19:55.385 --> 00:19:58.205 And that sets you up for connection and success for sure. 00:19:58.504 --> 00:20:01.175 Question number two, and you have interviewed a lot of people and 00:20:01.175 --> 00:20:02.735 watched a lot of good communicators. 00:20:02.735 --> 00:20:05.340 Who is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:20:06.090 --> 00:20:08.580 Adam Bryant: So many, but I will tell you the story. 00:20:08.610 --> 00:20:12.180 From the 1990s, I was a business reporter at the New York Times and 00:20:12.180 --> 00:20:14.250 I was covering the airline industry. 00:20:14.460 --> 00:20:18.720 I spent a lot of time with a guy named Gordon Bassoon, who was charged with 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:20.400 turning around Continental Airlines. 00:20:20.730 --> 00:20:23.460 Continental Airlines at the time was truly a punchline. 00:20:23.460 --> 00:20:26.730 It was just a terrible airline in really bad shape. 00:20:27.300 --> 00:20:31.270 And Gordon came in, he assembled this amazing leadership team. 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:36.629 And the thing about Gordon, he had this amazing ability to simplify complexity 00:20:36.629 --> 00:20:38.850 and just capture things in metaphors. 00:20:39.060 --> 00:20:42.720 At that point, there was this big push to cut costs and he said, 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:46.290 look, you can make a pizza so cheap that nobody will wanna buy it. 00:20:46.560 --> 00:20:50.040 And just that ability to create those sort of little visuals or like 00:20:50.040 --> 00:20:51.659 we can't just keep cost cutting. 00:20:52.050 --> 00:20:54.960 He told me this one story about he was at an all hands and some of the 00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:59.100 pilots were like giving him a hard time about the direction, and he basically 00:20:59.100 --> 00:21:02.670 shot back at them and said, look, the gateway is still attached to the plane. 00:21:02.670 --> 00:21:06.030 You can get off the plane if you want, but right now this is my flight. 00:21:06.570 --> 00:21:08.310 And basically said, put up our shut up. 00:21:08.310 --> 00:21:11.790 And in those leadership moments, I sometimes think of it as being a 00:21:11.790 --> 00:21:14.490 comedian dealing with hecklers, right? 00:21:14.490 --> 00:21:17.400 You have to know not to put people down, but you have to know what the 00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:20.190 quick comeback is just to settle things. 00:21:20.520 --> 00:21:24.840 Matt Abrahams: In relying on metaphors and direct communication can really help. 00:21:25.110 --> 00:21:25.830 Thank you for that. 00:21:26.340 --> 00:21:30.120 Final question, what are the first three ingredients that go into a 00:21:30.120 --> 00:21:32.430 successful communication recipe? 00:21:32.820 --> 00:21:35.790 Adam Bryant: The first one, be really clear about what you want to say. 00:21:35.790 --> 00:21:40.410 Spend all the time, give yourself like 12 words, right, just as a forcing function. 00:21:40.410 --> 00:21:42.180 What is it that I want to say? 00:21:42.390 --> 00:21:43.410 So be clear of that. 00:21:43.470 --> 00:21:46.920 Second is make sure you provide the context of why 00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:48.270 it's relevant and important. 00:21:48.270 --> 00:21:51.150 You can't just assume that you have to put it in the broader frame. 00:21:51.345 --> 00:21:54.554 And then third, keep it simple, whether you're talking or using a deck. 00:21:54.554 --> 00:21:57.254 I would say big fonts, short bullet points. 00:21:57.735 --> 00:22:00.745 I always make the joke that nobody ever complained about too 00:22:00.764 --> 00:22:02.985 big fonts in PowerPoint decks. 00:22:03.225 --> 00:22:07.125 I see way too many presentations at conferences where people clearly built 00:22:07.125 --> 00:22:10.695 the deck while they were on their laptop, and then in a big hall, the person at 00:22:10.695 --> 00:22:12.195 the back of the room has to squint. 00:22:12.615 --> 00:22:16.820 And then just sort of use the visuals and metaphors and stories to make it stick. 00:22:17.460 --> 00:22:18.240 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:22.950 So clarity, context, so people understand the relevance, reduce that complexity 00:22:22.950 --> 00:22:27.030 and really make it compelling through the stories you tell, the metaphors 00:22:27.030 --> 00:22:28.740 you use, the visuals you show. 00:22:29.010 --> 00:22:31.860 Adam, this was absolutely compelling and interesting. 00:22:31.860 --> 00:22:35.310 Thank you for the insights that you shared, and I really appreciate your 00:22:35.310 --> 00:22:40.020 time decoding for us, what makes for not just successful leaders but 00:22:40.020 --> 00:22:41.610 successful communication, thank you. 00:22:42.255 --> 00:22:42.585 Adam Bryant: That's great. 00:22:42.585 --> 00:22:45.015 Thank you for the invite and for the great questions. 00:22:45.015 --> 00:22:45.285 Matt, 00:22:47.955 --> 00:22:49.815 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:22:49.815 --> 00:22:52.065 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:22:52.335 --> 00:22:56.745 To learn more about leadership, please listen to episode 98 with David Dodson. 00:22:57.255 --> 00:23:02.154 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:23:02.455 --> 00:23:03.955 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:23:04.014 --> 00:23:06.235 With special thanks to Podium podcast company. 00:23:06.745 --> 00:23:09.925 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:23:10.074 --> 00:23:12.054 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:23:12.294 --> 00:23:15.925 Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok and Instagram and check 00:23:15.925 --> 00:23:17.604 out our faster smarter.io. 00:23:17.635 --> 00:23:21.804 For deep dive videos, English language learning content and our newsletter, 00:23:22.225 --> 00:23:25.705 please consider our premium offering for extended deep thinks episodes 00:23:25.975 --> 00:23:31.854 AMAs, ask Matt anything and much more at faster smarter.io/premium.