Matt Abrahams: At one level, effective communication boils down
simply to making things accessible.
Simplifying so people can understand, providing the context to help them learn,
and allowing yourself to build curiosity to motivate people to pay attention.
My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach Strategic Communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today I am really excited to be speaking with Adam Bryant.
Adam is a senior managing director and a partner at the EXCO Group, and he
is a former New York Times journalist and bestselling author, known for
his Corner Office column where he interviewed over 500 CEOs and executives.
His work focuses on demystifying leadership, identifying the key qualities
of successful leaders, and translating those insights into actionable advice.
For managers, he's the author of several books, including Quick
and Nimble, and the CEO test.
Welcome, Adam.
I am really excited for our conversation.
Adam Bryant: Great to be here, Matt.
Thank you for the invite.
Matt Abrahams: Alright, shall we get started?
Adam Bryant: Let's do it.
Matt Abrahams: You've documented the career journeys of countless leaders.
What are some of the specific patterns or trends you've identified
that have helped these leaders to be successful in their careers?
Adam Bryant: It's something I think a lot about, and I've come up with
my top three if you'll indulge me.
So, the first one is the ability to simplify complexity, which I know is
a topic that's near and dear to your heart, but I don't think you can be an
effective leader if you can't do that.
So much of leadership is like, there's a lot going on in the world, in your
particular industry inside your company.
I think it's a key leadership moment to be able to stand on a stage and
say, this is where we're going, this is how we're gonna get there, and
this is when we're gonna get there.
what the timeline is.
That's a high art of leadership, being able to simplify but
not oversimplify complexity.
So that's number one.
I do think a lot about this word authenticity, which I think
has become much more important just in the last several years.
People want that and expect that from their leaders.
Authenticity is one of those words that means a lot of different
things to a lot of different people.
The way I think about it is that you need to know what your values are and to be
able to communicate them and not just in terms of fridge magnet poetry that, you
know, integrity's in part, but to be able to say like I wanna share with you the
three values that are important to me.
I want to tell you the stories about how these became important to me.
I want to tell you how these values show up in my leadership style day
to day, so you know what to expect and you know where they come from.
And to me like that's a big component of being an authentic leader.
The final point I'll make is just leaders have to be comfortable in the balancing
acts, the paradoxes, the contradictions of leadership because the thing about
the leadership space, people are always looking for shortcuts and saying,
leadership is about this one thing, and it's never about one thing, right?
It's always about two things that are usually in tension.
Part of your job as a leader is to create a sense of urgency
while also being patient.
Part of your job as a leader is to be compassionate, but
also hold people accountable.
You need to be a really good listener, but you also need to know when
to say, folks, I made a decision.
We're going left, we're not going right.
And so just all those sort of gray areas, those balancing acts, I think that's
another thing that you simply have to be able to do to be an effective leader.
Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate you distilling that down.
So it's to take complexity and make it accessible, simplify
it, help people to prioritize.
Authenticity, which is really about values and setting people's expectations for
what you expect from them and yourself.
And then this ability to deal with the dialectics and tensions
that present themselves.
We spent a whole episode talking with Rob Siegel, who I teach with, who wrote a book
on system leadership, and you're right, there are so many tensions that we all
have to deal with, especially leaders.
That's critical.
When you look back at the synthesis you've done, the career journeys that
you've seen, is there a particular mistake or two that leaders tend to
make, especially when it comes to communicating around themselves or
their companies that you've seen that we could learn from and try to avoid?
Adam Bryant: I do keep coming back to simplicity.
So two things: one, simplicity and two repetition.
I think for a lot of leaders, things tend to be very clear in leader's heads.
In the work that I do at my firm, we coach senior leaders and usually
there's a gap between how clear things are in the leader's head and
how clear they are to everybody else.
And look, earlier in my career when I was a reporter, I followed around a CEO for
a couple of days doing a profile on them.
And there was a moment where they stood on a stage in front of literally
thousands of employees, and the first words were, I've got 11 things on my mind.
And you could literally just feel the energy drain out of the room.
And all the science shows that most people can't remember more than
three or four things day to day.
So I do think there's this learning curve that I've seen that I've heard
a lot about in leaders, which is just, I have to keep simplifying.
This from one of the CEOs I interviewed a guy named Marcus Ryu.
He, he had this great expression that really stayed with me
in terms of communication.
I think about a lot myself when I give talks and my shorthand
version of his theory is the Einstein Theory of Communication.
And what he said is that you can have a room full of Einstein's, literally
the smartest people on the planet, but there's something about the human
brain that the bigger the audience, the more the collective IQ drops.
So I think about that a lot.
And so when you're giving talks like my advice is big fonts, a few
bullet points, short sentences.
Because yes, everybody in the audience is smart, but there's something
about, as audiences get bigger, you have to keep it simpler and simpler.
So the second point I'll make is about repetition.
And again, I've heard this a lot from leaders as part of their learning curve.
You're like, why do I have to say this again?
I just said it at the last town hall, and you have to say it again.
You've gotta say it seven times, seven different ways
for people to hear you once.
I love the rule that I heard from one CEO, which is you have to get comfortable with
people almost teasing you because they know exactly what you're going to say.
And when you do that, you've got them.
But just being comfortable in the sense of like, folks, you've heard this before.
It's important to say it again, let's reset on our
strategy, et cetera, et cetera.
Matt Abrahams: This notion of distilling things down so people
can really understand them.
I like the term accessibility over simplicity, simply because sometimes
simplicity implies dumbing something down, and I'm not a big proponent
of that, but making it accessible so people really understand, helping
them prioritize, see what's important.
And you're right, we suffer from the curse of knowledge and sometimes the
curse of passion, and that leads us to say much more and get into the
weeds in a way that actually detracts.
So I love this idea of, really focus on keeping it simple.
And you're right, the more people that you're communicating with, just because of
the diversity of experience and knowledge, I do think you have to really focus on
accessibility, the larger the group.
And then this notion of repetition.
I also coach people, you have to say it over and over again, not
necessarily in exactly the same words.
Maybe you say it and then you give an example.
You show a statistic, you use an image, whatever, but you do really have to
reinforce for people to understand.
And I like that test, if people start teasing you for it, then you've
probably done enough repetition, and I think that's important.
You've written several books.
Your book, The CEO Test outlines some critical challenges leaders face.
One of these is, can the leader really listen?
What advice do you have for leaders and for all of us really to better listen.
Adam Bryant: I think the first point is be aware that people may be coming to
you or probably coming to you with side agendas that they may not necessarily
want to tell you that there's a problem.
There's that famous expression about, be careful about how your jokes
become funny when you become a leader and people don't really want to go
to the boss to bring them bad news.
So just this awareness that you're actually trapped in an information bubble.
And this is the contradiction to me of the CEO role, which is that.
You have access to more lines of communication than anybody else in the
company, but all those lines are probably compromised in terms of the accuracy
of the signal that you're getting.
So the first step is to be aware of that.
And then the second thing is to build up literally almost a listening
infrastructure so that you could find out what's really going on in the company.
And that comes from making sure that you've got those confidants that
are going to be straight with you when people do give you difficult
news that you thank them for it.
So that word gets out that you actually get points for telling the
boss something they might not wanna hear, rather than getting in trouble.
Because that word spreads really quickly.
I often tell the story.
So the book I wrote, The CEO Test was with Kevin Sharer was the former CEO of Amgen,
and he was very aware of this phenomenon.
And so on the annual employee survey, the last question on the survey for
everybody was the question, what do you think of the job Kevin is doing?
And it was an open field.
People could do it anonymously or sign their name.
Basically saying like, I need to know what you're thinking.
And he said he would gather all those and read them just to make sure that
you're getting the straight feedback.
Because history is full of companies that got into trouble because people on the
front lines knew there was a problem, but nobody wanted to tell the bosses.
Matt Abrahams: I really like this idea of reminding yourself, uh, being aware that
there might be some other issue going on.
So what's the question behind the question?
What's the feedback behind the feedback and seeking that out?
And not just paying attention to what is said, but perhaps why
it might be said in that way.
And I really like this notion of listening infrastructure.
So it's about having trusted others who can give you insight.
It's about rewarding people who do come forward.
I would add it's being specific in the type of information you want.
Often we don't ask specifically, and when you ask for something
specific, you are likely to get it versus a more general ask.
I appreciate that guidance and we can all make sure that we do that.
And I think another factor there, and I'd love to get your opinion on this,
is demonstrating that you actually listened, not just thanking somebody for
it, but maybe paraphrasing or delineating the action you're taking as a result.
Is that important as well?
Adam Bryant: Oh for sure.
And to your point, it's not just, I hear you, but I think the most
powerful thing is thanking them for that and then acting on it, right?
Because again, the word spreads very quickly in culture.
And if somebody has an experience where I went to the boss, gave
'em some tough news, they thank me for it, and they acted on it.
And now I've got like a gold star on my forehead because of that experience.
Like people are go, I'm gonna do that too.
Matt Abrahams: We've talked a bit about simplifying complex information.
As somebody who's done what you do, as somebody who's written about this now,
as somebody who consults on this, do you have specific advice and guidance
frameworks for how you take something complex and make it easier and more
simple for people to understand?
Do you have a tool that you recommend or use?
Adam Bryant: I don't have a simple tool, but I've had sort
of two chapters in my career.
One is 30 years as a journalist, 15 years as a reporter, where I was
having to simplify complexity myself.
And then 15 years as an editor where I was having to help the reporters
I worked with simplify complexity.
And now eight years in its consulting chapter where again this
skill of simplifying complexity is so important for leadership.
But just starting with clarity of what you want to say and what the
message is, that's the hardest part.
And it might even be painful, just like staring at a blank piece of paper or blank
screen saying, what is it that I'm saying and that I want to say and need to say?
And doing that thinking work.
And then just understanding this simple thing about human nature, which is
most people can't absorb or remember more than three or four things.
So if you are going to distill it down and be tough with yourself, because
you talked about it earlier, the dangers of oversimplifying, right?
There is a sweet spot there of truly simplifying but not oversimplifying.
I also sometimes think about how the word empathy has additional
meanings that we typically talk about.
Because we usually talk about empathy, it's like, I
understand what you're feeling.
But I also think that we need to talk more about empathy as a component
of communication, because to be an effective communicator, whether it's
a presenter or it's a writer, you have to be able to get in the head of the
audience and be able to see what you're saying or writing with fresh eyes,
and ask yourself, is this clear to me?
Am I getting this?
Because usually people aren't good writers or communicators or speakers.
They lack that ability, right?
Like you don't seem to be able to understand how the audience is not going
to be able to process what you're saying.
So I think almost that forcing function of having that empathy,
forcing yourself out of your own head, because we're all trapped by
our own context, our own expertise.
And imagine somebody receiving this information for the first time and
making sure that it's clear to them.
I mean, in all my years of working with writers after they submitted
their story, I would sometimes say to them, you are suffering from the most
noble disease of great journalists.
You are suffering from expertitis.
You are too close to this subject matter.
You know too much about it, and you're having trouble resetting and getting in
the head of somebody hitting it cold.
And I think that's another way of thinking about this empathy.
How do you take yourself out of your own expertise to see it through fresh eyes?
Matt Abrahams: I love the term expertitis you know, when I do
this work, I talk about the curse of knowledge and curse of passion.
And I say the only antidote is empathy and curiosity, because
those get you out of your head.
And I 100% agree with you that effective communication is not broadcasting.
Effective communication is making sure the other person understands what you
meant, and the only way to do that is to see it from their perspective.
So being audience-centric is critical.
This notion of being tough on yourself.
To really force yourself to be clear is important.
And starting with that bottom line, really thinking through what is the key
essence of what I want to get across.
A lot of us start doing work before we really even understand
what it is we're trying to say, we discover that along the way.
And if we do that work up front, I think it just makes us more clear and concise.
And I appreciate you sharing that.
I have read a lot of your work, and I've enjoyed your work over the many years.
And one of the things that I note that you do, and I'd love to know if this
is just innate and you don't think about it or if it's strategic, you do
a very good job of getting people's attention early and building that
curiosity and motivation to learn more.
That type of engagement upfront, especially in a world where our attention
is being pulled in lots of different directions, is really important.
How much of that is innate and can you walk us through a little bit
of that because it's clear when you look at your body of work that
that's something you do very well.
Adam Bryant: So I started The Corner Office series at the New York Times.
It was a side project in addition to my day job managing reporters.
And it was based on a very simple, what if; I asked myself the question, what if
I sat down with CEOs and never ask them a single question about their companies?
And everything flows from that.
And for the last 15 years, interviewing more than a thousand leaders, I stick to
my swim lane of interviewing leaders about leadership and not about their companies.
'cause most of the time when leaders are interviewed.
They're interviewed as strategists, right?
Like how does next quarter look, Bob, and, and to me, I'm much more interested
in how you lead, how you navigate the universal challenges of leadership.
And I think that the more I've gotten into this, the more.
I'm just really intrigued with the humanity of leadership because who
you are is how you lead, and when I was doing corner ops, I always
started with the same few questions.
Tell me about when you were a kid, what were you doing outside of class?
Talk about your parents or whoever raised you and important early
influences there, questions like that.
The world tends to talk about children as young adults.
I think adults are just older children.
I'm always curious about those early stories because why do
people want these jobs, right?
Like, yes, there's all these material rewards and stuff, but like being a
CEO, nobody ever feels sorry for CEOs, but they're like really tough jobs.
They come with a huge tax on your personal lives and stress and
strain and all that other stuff.
So why do people want these jobs?
And so I'm trying to ask questions that get at that.
The final point I'll make, Matt, is that I generally boil down my q and as.
The transcript is often like eight, 9,000 words, and I'll boil it
down to 12, 1500 words, whatever.
And early on I figured out the three things that to me are the most
powerful currencies of leadership.
So when I'm condensing it, I'm always looking to keep three things.
One is an insight or lesson, right?
I learned this.
The second one is the story behind it.
Back to stories.
How did you learn this?
The third one is, okay, spin that forward.
How did that insight, that lesson, how does that show up in your
leadership style day to day?
Matt Abrahams: I like that structure, and I actually think that structure is useful
for anything we're trying to communicate.
What is it that you're trying to say?
Why?
How'd you come to that?
And then how does it influence you?
I think that's a lovely structure.
And the bottom line answer to my question that I heard you say is the way you
motivate people to pay attention to the things you write and the stories you
tell is based on your curiosity and that curiosity comes through in what you do.
And curiosity is a very powerful engagement tool.
If you can get people to feel curious, you know, in, in college I was a tour guide.
It was the highest paying job I could get, and I learned so much about
communication and what I learned is if I wanted my group to stay together and
not wander off and leave and ultimately give poor ratings to the experience.
If I could build curiosity from where we've been to where we were going
next, that changed the whole thing.
They wanted to move forward.
They were interested, they asked more questions.
So being curious yourself, I think leads very nicely to communicating
from a place of curiosity.
So I appreciate you saying that.
Adam Bryant: Yeah.
I've learned so much from all the leaders I've interviewed.
I mean life wisdom, not just leadership wisdom.
One of the most powerful things I heard from one leader was that, and
she was the university president, her advice to students is basically just
to go through life in the way that at any moment you could learn the
most important lesson of your life.
This could be the moment where I learn the most important lesson in my life.
Matt Abrahams: That is a very valuable lesson, and I think we
should all follow that for sure.
Well, Adam, before we end, I like to ask three questions of everyone.
One I make up for you and the other two I've been asking everybody as
long as this series has been around.
Are you up for that?
Adam Bryant: Always.
Matt Abrahams: All right.
From all of your years of interviewing leaders for your Corner Office
column, what was the most surprising communication, insight or piece of advice
you heard that fundamentally impacted you?
Adam Bryant: I think it's this idea of who you are is how you lead.
Because before I started doing all the interviews, I was trapped in that idea,
like there's different leadership styles and what kind of leader are you itinerary
books about different leadership styles.
And, what I learned through interviewing all these leaders and hearing their
stories, and then seeing the direct line between, okay, this is how I grew
up, and the important influences, it really shaped me, and that is how I lead.
I think a lot of people, when they move into new leadership roles, there's a
sense of, okay, what is gonna be my style?
It's like trying on different jackets to see if they're gonna fit.
And so I always say to people like, who you are is how you lead.
Be self-aware about all the things that influence your leadership style, and then
be explicit about that with your team.
Right.
People, they just want that sense of trust and vulnerability and
authenticity 'cause people can smell it a mile away if you're not comfortable
in your skin and you're trying to pretend to be somebody you're not.
Matt Abrahams: So taking the time to really reflect on who you are, what's
important to you, how you got to where you are, and then be very clear with others.
And that sets you up for connection and success for sure.
Question number two, and you have interviewed a lot of people and
watched a lot of good communicators.
Who is a communicator that you admire and why?
Adam Bryant: So many, but I will tell you the story.
From the 1990s, I was a business reporter at the New York Times and
I was covering the airline industry.
I spent a lot of time with a guy named Gordon Bassoon, who was charged with
turning around Continental Airlines.
Continental Airlines at the time was truly a punchline.
It was just a terrible airline in really bad shape.
And Gordon came in, he assembled this amazing leadership team.
And the thing about Gordon, he had this amazing ability to simplify complexity
and just capture things in metaphors.
At that point, there was this big push to cut costs and he said,
look, you can make a pizza so cheap that nobody will wanna buy it.
And just that ability to create those sort of little visuals or like
we can't just keep cost cutting.
He told me this one story about he was at an all hands and some of the
pilots were like giving him a hard time about the direction, and he basically
shot back at them and said, look, the gateway is still attached to the plane.
You can get off the plane if you want, but right now this is my flight.
And basically said, put up our shut up.
And in those leadership moments, I sometimes think of it as being a
comedian dealing with hecklers, right?
You have to know not to put people down, but you have to know what the
quick comeback is just to settle things.
Matt Abrahams: In relying on metaphors and direct communication can really help.
Thank you for that.
Final question, what are the first three ingredients that go into a
successful communication recipe?
Adam Bryant: The first one, be really clear about what you want to say.
Spend all the time, give yourself like 12 words, right, just as a forcing function.
What is it that I want to say?
So be clear of that.
Second is make sure you provide the context of why
it's relevant and important.
You can't just assume that you have to put it in the broader frame.
And then third, keep it simple, whether you're talking or using a deck.
I would say big fonts, short bullet points.
I always make the joke that nobody ever complained about too
big fonts in PowerPoint decks.
I see way too many presentations at conferences where people clearly built
the deck while they were on their laptop, and then in a big hall, the person at
the back of the room has to squint.
And then just sort of use the visuals and metaphors and stories to make it stick.
Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.
So clarity, context, so people understand the relevance, reduce that complexity
and really make it compelling through the stories you tell, the metaphors
you use, the visuals you show.
Adam, this was absolutely compelling and interesting.
Thank you for the insights that you shared, and I really appreciate your
time decoding for us, what makes for not just successful leaders but
successful communication, thank you.
Adam Bryant: That's great.
Thank you for the invite and for the great questions.
Matt,
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
To learn more about leadership, please listen to episode 98 with David Dodson.
This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
With special thanks to Podium podcast company.
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