WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.675 --> 00:00:00.855 Mario: Hey 00:00:00.855 --> 00:00:02.535 guys, how's it going? 00:00:02.751 --> 00:00:03.411 Justin: good. 00:00:03.475 --> 00:00:03.985 Alan: very well. 00:00:04.305 --> 00:00:07.485 Mario: So, Alan, uh, we have a special episode 00:00:07.855 --> 00:00:08.185 Alan: we do. 00:00:08.185 --> 00:00:08.575 Indeed. 00:00:09.025 --> 00:00:09.745 Very exciting. 00:00:10.305 --> 00:00:13.395 Mario: we do super excited to have our first guest ever 00:00:14.051 --> 00:00:15.071 Justin: First guest ever. 00:00:15.175 --> 00:00:15.505 Alan: Yeah. 00:00:15.761 --> 00:00:16.331 Justin: Oh, 00:00:16.485 --> 00:00:16.965 Mario: ever. 00:00:17.471 --> 00:00:18.881 Justin: I hope people aren't disappointed. 00:00:19.361 --> 00:00:19.811 Okay. 00:00:22.185 --> 00:00:22.935 Mario: Not at all. 00:00:23.021 --> 00:00:26.081 Justin: should have saved it for Beyonce or someone more impressive. 00:00:28.205 --> 00:00:30.695 Alan: You are the rock star of our little world, so you 00:00:30.755 --> 00:00:31.475 Mario: Yeah. 00:00:32.195 --> 00:00:33.065 exactly. 00:00:33.125 --> 00:00:33.815 Exactly. 00:00:33.815 --> 00:00:36.335 You're like, eh, I was telling my wife, yeah, we're going to have 00:00:36.365 --> 00:00:39.725 Justin on our podcast and uh, Yeah. 00:00:39.725 --> 00:00:40.865 It's, it's, it's awesome. 00:00:41.025 --> 00:00:41.745 And 00:00:41.745 --> 00:00:41.975 she's 00:00:41.975 --> 00:00:43.415 like, oh, okay. 00:00:43.495 --> 00:00:45.275 It's you know, you don't understand the 00:00:45.325 --> 00:00:46.555 significance of this 00:00:46.575 --> 00:00:47.785 Alan: that's That's nice, honey. 00:00:49.645 --> 00:00:50.325 Mario: That's very nice 00:00:50.365 --> 00:00:51.651 Justin: I listened to your show all the time. 00:00:51.651 --> 00:00:57.831 So it's fun to get to talk with you in real time and, uh, and see Fusioncast. 00:00:58.101 --> 00:00:59.871 I've you know, this is the first time using it. 00:00:59.871 --> 00:00:59.961 It's 00:00:59.961 --> 00:01:00.441 great. 00:01:00.441 --> 00:01:03.351 It's like really you're way further, along than I thought you 00:01:03.351 --> 00:01:03.861 were like, 00:01:04.010 --> 00:01:05.450 Alan: He's this little dark horse. 00:01:05.570 --> 00:01:08.210 It was kind of like building this it's really good. 00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:08.660 It's 00:01:08.701 --> 00:01:15.691 Justin: yeah, this is, this is like not, not easy software to build. 00:01:16.520 --> 00:01:20.540 Mario: No, it's not, it's not easy at all, but, uh, well, you know, 00:01:20.540 --> 00:01:23.900 Alan keeps, uh, giving me a hard time because I haven't launched yet. 00:01:25.610 --> 00:01:28.130 Every episode, every, every session that, 00:01:28.130 --> 00:01:29.720 uh, we record, he's like, 00:01:29.720 --> 00:01:30.530 okay, when, are you 00:01:30.530 --> 00:01:30.950 launching? 00:01:31.470 --> 00:01:31.880 When are you 00:01:31.880 --> 00:01:32.300 launching? 00:01:33.161 --> 00:01:33.401 Justin: So 00:01:33.560 --> 00:01:33.860 Mario: good. 00:01:33.860 --> 00:01:34.640 It's good enough. 00:01:34.731 --> 00:01:35.681 Justin: when are you launching. 00:01:36.100 --> 00:01:36.730 Alan: Yeah, exactly. 00:01:37.330 --> 00:01:37.750 Thank you. 00:01:38.290 --> 00:01:39.640 I didn't prep that. 00:01:42.350 --> 00:01:43.910 Mario: Now it's, now it's two against one. 00:01:44.960 --> 00:01:50.450 No, um, uh, really soon, actually now I am really working on the final. 00:01:51.220 --> 00:01:54.970 You know, steps that I need to take, before launching, I'm integrating my 00:01:54.970 --> 00:01:59.534 billing system with paddle, and, and just updating the marketing site and, 00:01:59.940 --> 00:02:03.850 fine tuning some of the infrastructure, you know, some of the, the server 00:02:03.850 --> 00:02:07.764 where it's running and the database and, all the infrastructure stuff, so 00:02:07.764 --> 00:02:13.794 that it's, um, robust enough to launch and have more people using the system. 00:02:14.334 --> 00:02:18.114 So, you know what, that's, one of my concerns is will it scale? 00:02:18.144 --> 00:02:19.374 You know, I haven't had a chance 00:02:19.433 --> 00:02:19.523 Alan: to 00:02:19.523 --> 00:02:20.003 find out. 00:02:20.324 --> 00:02:22.064 Mario: to, to try that. 00:02:22.554 --> 00:02:23.244 Exactly. 00:02:23.784 --> 00:02:24.534 So it's like a 00:02:24.700 --> 00:02:25.810 catch 22 there. 00:02:25.831 --> 00:02:31.291 Justin: if you look at the Reddit threads and the Twitter threads about this space, 00:02:32.371 --> 00:02:37.411 uh, the, the most common complaint is, you know, uh, Riverside was good, but now. 00:02:38.256 --> 00:02:44.317 Buggy or I used to love Zencaster, but now I'm getting audio drift and it seems 00:02:44.317 --> 00:02:49.667 like, and this space is very, there's a herd mentality around it, where, you know, 00:02:49.727 --> 00:02:54.617 at first everyone was using Zencaster and then they had a few issues and then it was 00:02:54.617 --> 00:02:57.237 like, everyone moved over to squad cast. 00:02:57.430 --> 00:03:00.580 And then Riverside came out with video recording first. 00:03:00.580 --> 00:03:03.803 And so people moved over there and then Riverside had some 00:03:03.900 --> 00:03:06.853 bugs and, uh, people complain. 00:03:06.853 --> 00:03:13.153 But so it's yeah, the, the finicky- ness of it is I think the challenge. 00:03:13.153 --> 00:03:13.693 Um, 00:03:13.932 --> 00:03:14.502 Mario: exactly. 00:03:15.193 --> 00:03:20.328 Justin: but ironically, I almost think like, I mean, I like the, I like all of 00:03:20.328 --> 00:03:23.808 those folks, like Zencaster and squad cast, and Riverside, they're all great. 00:03:24.228 --> 00:03:28.668 But the, for whatever reason, Riverside's problems started after 00:03:28.668 --> 00:03:32.028 they got, uh, a bunch of funding and hired a bunch of people, 00:03:32.808 --> 00:03:36.528 it was kind of better when they were indie and just a few people working on it 00:03:37.061 --> 00:03:37.451 Alan: Typical. 00:03:37.451 --> 00:03:37.721 Isn't it. 00:03:38.291 --> 00:03:38.981 It's the way it goes. 00:03:40.698 --> 00:03:42.228 Justin: I don't know why that is, but 00:03:42.631 --> 00:03:43.081 Alan: There may be. 00:03:43.081 --> 00:03:43.291 Yeah. 00:03:43.321 --> 00:03:44.551 I mean, maybe they just got too 00:03:44.551 --> 00:03:46.561 excited and yeah, I tried to take on too much. 00:03:46.561 --> 00:03:49.581 I mean, the thing is with this kind of software, it's like the, the, 00:03:49.681 --> 00:03:52.561 you want it to do one thing and you want it to really not screw that up. 00:03:52.591 --> 00:03:52.771 Right. 00:03:53.671 --> 00:03:57.121 But I can see the, the urge to, well, we've got income 00:03:57.121 --> 00:03:58.411 and money and we want to grow. 00:03:58.411 --> 00:04:02.431 And so yeah, this keep on adding stuff to, it must be very strong urge, 00:04:02.431 --> 00:04:02.701 right? 00:04:03.832 --> 00:04:08.362 Mario: And more people, I guess, more moving parts, more things to manage, more 00:04:08.362 --> 00:04:10.282 chances for things to go wrong 00:04:10.358 --> 00:04:10.478 Justin: yeah. 00:04:11.271 --> 00:04:13.851 Alan: I mean, the interesting thing is quite a small, I mean, 00:04:13.851 --> 00:04:15.231 it's a, I guess a reasonably 00:04:15.231 --> 00:04:17.331 niche niche ish thing. 00:04:17.641 --> 00:04:21.261 There's not that many people in, you know, percentage of the world recording 00:04:21.261 --> 00:04:24.591 podcasts, but at the same time, there's only a handful of competitors, right? 00:04:24.621 --> 00:04:27.651 There's not like, you know, a hundred people making this kind of tool. 00:04:27.651 --> 00:04:32.301 So hopefully to get known about is, you know, possible because it's 00:04:32.301 --> 00:04:36.291 the same people are going to the same places and, you know, they're 00:04:36.381 --> 00:04:37.601 in the same kind of communities. 00:04:37.601 --> 00:04:42.081 So hopefully, you know, that you can find your, your audience reasonably, reasonably 00:04:42.081 --> 00:04:46.551 well, which was just what I was about to start to talking to Justin about before. 00:04:46.881 --> 00:04:49.731 I think, you know, you're, you're lucky that your audiences, you know, 00:04:49.731 --> 00:04:50.751 where they are, right for them. 00:04:51.648 --> 00:04:52.308 Justin: Yeah. 00:04:52.818 --> 00:04:56.388 And it'd be interesting to see what's happening in this category now, because 00:04:57.048 --> 00:05:05.448 back September, 2020, I remember watching squad cast was on Microconf Remote. 00:05:06.658 --> 00:05:11.038 And they had just passed a hundred K in MRR. 00:05:11.144 --> 00:05:16.688 And I think they were quite a bit behind transistor in terms of MRR for 00:05:16.688 --> 00:05:21.398 awhile, and then the pandemic happened and that category just exploded. 00:05:21.428 --> 00:05:24.488 Like even more than podcast hosting. 00:05:24.518 --> 00:05:27.878 There was just that many more people that wanted to have you know, a 00:05:27.878 --> 00:05:31.658 zoom like session like this, but be able to record it and be able to 00:05:31.658 --> 00:05:33.878 record all the individual tracks. 00:05:34.448 --> 00:05:36.038 And so the market for that seemed bigger. 00:05:36.038 --> 00:05:38.888 And so they just like, I can't remember how fast it was. 00:05:38.888 --> 00:05:41.078 Like he said something like he 00:05:41.078 --> 00:05:44.601 doubled, they doubled in 12 months or something 00:05:44.609 --> 00:05:44.879 Alan: Well, 00:05:46.109 --> 00:05:46.979 something just kind 00:05:46.979 --> 00:05:47.699 of caught yeah. 00:05:47.709 --> 00:05:48.809 That there was something about it. 00:05:48.809 --> 00:05:51.389 That was like, everybody understood what they needed and boom. 00:05:51.911 --> 00:05:52.631 Justin: yeah. 00:05:52.691 --> 00:05:55.001 But a lot of us that experienced bumps. 00:05:55.654 --> 00:06:00.558 like initial revenue bumps in the, that first lockdown, in the, behind the 00:06:00.558 --> 00:06:04.041 scenes, like in the back channels, as we're talking, it was almost like we 00:06:04.041 --> 00:06:08.121 pulled ahead revenue, like it accelerated revenue, but it just pulled it ahead. 00:06:08.241 --> 00:06:13.821 And then eventually it, got pulled back, meaning like, we're 00:06:13.821 --> 00:06:16.821 still ahead, but we were grow. 00:06:16.851 --> 00:06:20.421 Like we grew transistor grew quite a bit too, not as much as squad cast, 00:06:20.421 --> 00:06:24.824 but we, we had this big bump in revenue and you can see it on a revenue graph. 00:06:24.824 --> 00:06:28.334 It goes like bump and then up and then down, and then it's 00:06:28.334 --> 00:06:29.744 continued to grow since then. 00:06:30.494 --> 00:06:34.954 And the kind of worry in the, you know, in these back channel chats 00:06:34.954 --> 00:06:38.908 is that, maybe all that really happened is we just accelerated, 00:06:38.908 --> 00:06:40.678 pulled forward revenue that we would 00:06:40.678 --> 00:06:43.918 have had any way, but it just got accelerated. 00:06:43.926 --> 00:06:46.476 Alan: It's kind of come back to back to almost where it would 00:06:46.476 --> 00:06:47.556 have been projected anyway. 00:06:47.556 --> 00:06:47.796 Right. 00:06:47.796 --> 00:06:50.166 It was just like this temporary little booster, but it 00:06:50.166 --> 00:06:51.366 kind of got back to normal. 00:06:51.516 --> 00:06:52.836 I mean, I think that's the biggest 00:06:54.096 --> 00:06:56.436 kind of disappointment in this. 00:06:56.436 --> 00:06:59.276 I thought we'd have, you know, like remote work and hybrid work. 00:06:59.276 --> 00:07:01.826 There does seem to have been this massive pulling back, which I guess 00:07:01.826 --> 00:07:03.536 it's a, like a rubber band in effect. 00:07:03.566 --> 00:07:06.596 Maybe we pulled too far in away, but hopefully there's, there's 00:07:06.596 --> 00:07:10.016 going to be some more momentum towards that, but it does, 00:07:10.793 --> 00:07:12.953 Justin: yeah, It'd be interesting to look at Zoom's numbers. 00:07:12.953 --> 00:07:16.553 I haven't looked at their numbers lately, but, you know, have they gone, 00:07:16.853 --> 00:07:19.253 have they really grown that much? 00:07:19.349 --> 00:07:20.489 has it slowed down? 00:07:21.089 --> 00:07:25.799 That would be a good, I think, indicator of kind of where everything's going. 00:07:26.743 --> 00:07:27.193 Mario: right. 00:07:27.223 --> 00:07:27.643 right. 00:07:27.793 --> 00:07:31.693 And the pandemic Mick, I guess, uh, had a lot to do with that 00:07:31.693 --> 00:07:33.133 stretching of the rubber band. 00:07:33.163 --> 00:07:33.403 Right. 00:07:33.433 --> 00:07:36.943 Like maybe, maybe that went too far because the pandemic 00:07:36.943 --> 00:07:38.173 was fueling a lot of that. 00:07:38.863 --> 00:07:42.553 And now, and now that it's getting better, we'll see where, where it goes. 00:07:42.644 --> 00:07:43.184 Justin: Yeah. 00:07:43.514 --> 00:07:44.444 I mean, it was good. 00:07:44.444 --> 00:07:49.364 I think, I mean, it'll be good for both of you in the sense that awareness 00:07:49.394 --> 00:07:54.314 for like tools like Fusioncast, but also tools like dot plan. 00:07:54.884 --> 00:07:56.264 There's much more awareness. 00:07:56.264 --> 00:07:58.814 People are looking for those tools. 00:07:59.234 --> 00:08:02.508 People got introduced to whole new categories of products that 00:08:02.508 --> 00:08:06.708 they'd never seen before and now they know to search for them. 00:08:06.828 --> 00:08:07.188 Right. 00:08:07.758 --> 00:08:13.511 Uh, and that kind of like search searching with intent is, I think for 00:08:13.511 --> 00:08:16.661 indie software is what we all want. 00:08:16.691 --> 00:08:21.071 We want people that know that podcast hosting is a category 00:08:21.071 --> 00:08:22.541 is a thing you need to look for. 00:08:22.871 --> 00:08:27.251 And then you can search for best podcast hosting and hopefully find transistor. 00:08:27.911 --> 00:08:32.891 Um, and the same for you, you know, that you'd hope that people would have 00:08:32.891 --> 00:08:35.651 enough awareness of the category that they'd be searching for that stuff. 00:08:36.591 --> 00:08:42.231 Um, so I think it was good in that sense, but I think for those of us 00:08:42.231 --> 00:08:47.421 that benefited from it, there's a natural, like that whole cohort. 00:08:47.421 --> 00:08:51.811 Now it's been two years and you know, a lot of them are reevaluating. 00:08:52.201 --> 00:08:55.351 Do I still want to run my podcast that I started 00:08:55.351 --> 00:08:56.281 in the pandemic? 00:08:56.341 --> 00:08:57.811 And so we're seeing some churn 00:08:57.841 --> 00:08:59.461 related to that, you know? 00:09:00.349 --> 00:09:03.889 Alan: And it's probably feels a little bit worrying for you, but at the same time, 00:09:03.889 --> 00:09:06.169 as you said, it was an unnatural event. 00:09:06.169 --> 00:09:06.529 Anyway. 00:09:06.529 --> 00:09:10.669 So it's, um, it, it, it's kind of to be expected 00:09:11.509 --> 00:09:12.809 what probably, yeah, 00:09:12.961 --> 00:09:13.291 Justin: yeah, 00:09:13.301 --> 00:09:13.481 yeah. 00:09:13.511 --> 00:09:19.541 I mean, the growth was amazing and again, we haven't, we haven't, uh, revenue still 00:09:19.541 --> 00:09:25.841 growing, but it's definitely the growth has slowed down since that first lockdown. 00:09:26.746 --> 00:09:30.736 Uh, so yeah, it's nice having the growth and, and again, any sort of Zeit Geist 00:09:30.766 --> 00:09:34.516 that propels people into your sphere of, 00:09:34.816 --> 00:09:39.136 you know, your category is, uh, welcome. 00:09:39.324 --> 00:09:39.654 Alan: right. 00:09:39.744 --> 00:09:42.474 Yeah, no, I just say, I mean, I think the biggest thing was, you know, it, it 00:09:42.474 --> 00:09:46.164 seemed to me, I mean, it was probably more amplified for me here as well in Japan. 00:09:46.164 --> 00:09:47.724 Whereas remote work was here. 00:09:47.724 --> 00:09:51.324 It's, you know, when I first moved here, um, you know, I started talking 00:09:51.324 --> 00:09:54.864 to people and you know, let's talk about remote sessions and it was just like, 00:09:54.894 --> 00:09:56.934 no, we don't, we won't even consider it. 00:09:56.934 --> 00:09:59.184 It was just completely off the table. 00:09:59.184 --> 00:10:00.954 There was no consideration whatsoever. 00:10:01.164 --> 00:10:03.144 Whereas now it's a conversation you can have. 00:10:03.444 --> 00:10:08.004 Um, you know, if the answer might still not be yes, but at least there's 00:10:08.004 --> 00:10:10.314 an acceptance that yeah, it happens. 00:10:10.344 --> 00:10:13.854 And we know that within certain circumstances it can work 00:10:13.854 --> 00:10:16.284 well, but, um, it's yeah. 00:10:16.344 --> 00:10:18.894 It's, as you said, it's helped bring it into a public awareness, 00:10:18.894 --> 00:10:20.184 which can only be a good thing. 00:10:20.686 --> 00:10:21.226 Justin: Yeah. 00:10:21.496 --> 00:10:23.176 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:10:23.206 --> 00:10:24.796 And a good opportunity for Indies. 00:10:24.796 --> 00:10:30.035 I think like, even for people to start thinking about, you know, you had this 00:10:30.185 --> 00:10:33.785 great resignation and that's actually one thing, at least in north America 00:10:33.785 --> 00:10:39.095 that has been fairly sticky is people are not going back to work at the same 00:10:39.125 --> 00:10:41.015 rate that people thought they would. 00:10:41.015 --> 00:10:45.095 A lot of people just resigned and then have been working on their own things, 00:10:45.095 --> 00:10:49.295 trying to, you know, start their own businesses, uh, looking for better 00:10:49.295 --> 00:10:51.565 paying jobs, going back and retraining. 00:10:52.455 --> 00:10:55.588 That part has, been actually pretty sticky. 00:10:56.068 --> 00:11:01.042 And that's a good thing for, uh, I think the indie maker community, 00:11:01.042 --> 00:11:02.302 cause there's more people doing it. 00:11:02.558 --> 00:11:06.238 and there's more people looking to collaborate like, I think it's going to 00:11:06.238 --> 00:11:11.102 be, become more competitive for remote jobs again, because the big employers 00:11:11.162 --> 00:11:16.142 are going back to the office, but, you know, indie software companies that might 00:11:16.142 --> 00:11:20.162 want to hire a contractor or their first employee, uh, there's going to be a lot of 00:11:20.162 --> 00:11:23.132 people looking because of that, you know? 00:11:23.762 --> 00:11:26.702 Uh, so I think there's lots of benefits from it. 00:11:26.972 --> 00:11:32.668 Uh, it was, it, it sucked for all sorts of other reasons, but in terms of, you know, 00:11:32.698 --> 00:11:37.828 maybe what we care about, which is more indie companies and our indie companies. 00:11:38.197 --> 00:11:43.183 having a better chance, an amplifying, you know, those kind of opportunities. 00:11:43.423 --> 00:11:44.923 It was good for that, for sure. 00:11:45.643 --> 00:11:46.033 Mario: Yeah. 00:11:46.243 --> 00:11:47.683 Yeah, Yeah. 00:11:47.713 --> 00:11:48.283 For sure. 00:11:49.303 --> 00:11:52.483 I I've seen, uh, just, uh, switching gears a little bit here. 00:11:52.483 --> 00:11:55.543 I've seen some of the, uh, new features you've been releasing 00:11:55.543 --> 00:11:58.723 with transistor, uh, really, really great stuff. 00:11:59.413 --> 00:12:00.223 Really good stuff. 00:12:00.273 --> 00:12:00.453 Justin: yeah. 00:12:00.483 --> 00:12:00.783 Thanks. 00:12:00.783 --> 00:12:00.963 Yeah. 00:12:00.963 --> 00:12:02.283 It's felt, it's felt 00:12:02.283 --> 00:12:02.613 awesome. 00:12:02.613 --> 00:12:04.593 We, Jon and I had our, founder 00:12:04.593 --> 00:12:06.573 retreat in, uh, when was 00:12:06.573 --> 00:12:06.873 that? 00:12:07.323 --> 00:12:08.313 Yeah, we went skiing. 00:12:08.780 --> 00:12:12.140 I, took Jon to the, the COVID capital of British Columbia. 00:12:14.570 --> 00:12:17.450 Um, so yeah, we had that. 00:12:17.510 --> 00:12:18.620 I now I can't even remember. 00:12:18.620 --> 00:12:20.090 I think that was in January. 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:24.893 And, since then, I mean, things have been kind of bubbling. 00:12:25.223 --> 00:12:27.353 We'd been fairly gentle with ourselves. 00:12:28.143 --> 00:12:33.783 Through 2020 and then 2021, we hired Helen and then Jason. 00:12:34.173 --> 00:12:35.913 So Helen does customer success for us. 00:12:35.913 --> 00:12:41.013 Full-time she's in the UK and Jason's in Ohio and he's really senior, 00:12:41.013 --> 00:12:44.793 developer, uh, mostly on the backend, but Jon had worked with him before. 00:12:45.513 --> 00:12:49.083 And so we, we knew we would have more bandwidth for staff that we 00:12:49.083 --> 00:12:50.703 hadn't been able to tackle before. 00:12:50.763 --> 00:12:56.737 And I think we were both just kind of ready to start cranking on stuff again. 00:12:57.087 --> 00:13:02.517 And, websites was the kind of embarrassing feature for transistor. 00:13:02.547 --> 00:13:04.590 It was just like, they weren't that good. 00:13:04.590 --> 00:13:05.940 I didn't like promoting it. 00:13:06.197 --> 00:13:09.947 you know, it was, I mean, it was cool to see what people did with that initial 00:13:10.157 --> 00:13:15.257 version of podcast websites, but, we definitely needed to have something new. 00:13:15.597 --> 00:13:19.527 So podcasts websites is the most recent that we just we're working on right now. 00:13:20.170 --> 00:13:23.440 and then dynamic audio insertion was before that. 00:13:23.530 --> 00:13:26.230 And I was like another project that we thought we're just never gonna be 00:13:26.230 --> 00:13:30.910 able to do that, you know, have these basically dynamic ad campaigns where 00:13:30.970 --> 00:13:35.260 you can say here's pre-roll audio or mid-roll audio, and then you can have 00:13:35.260 --> 00:13:37.030 it apply to all of your episodes. 00:13:37.030 --> 00:13:39.107 So there's a, you know, a little campaign and 00:13:39.107 --> 00:13:41.327 certain points throughout all your episodes. 00:13:41.897 --> 00:13:42.767 And it was just like, we 00:13:42.767 --> 00:13:43.667 can't do that. 00:13:44.242 --> 00:13:45.882 Alan: It's just way out of the scope of what you, 00:13:45.882 --> 00:13:46.072 it, 00:13:46.097 --> 00:13:47.207 Justin: It's way out of scope. 00:13:47.417 --> 00:13:47.987 Yeah. 00:13:48.253 --> 00:13:54.043 But the cool thing, especially for Jon and I, who are kind of hesitant to hire, 00:13:54.493 --> 00:13:59.263 it's been having Helen and Jason, like these two people who are enthusiastic 00:13:59.420 --> 00:14:02.210 about bringing new stuff into the app. 00:14:02.617 --> 00:14:04.837 it kind of gave us this whole new energy 00:14:04.837 --> 00:14:05.887 that I don't think we would have had. 00:14:06.622 --> 00:14:08.992 Otherwise, so yeah, it's been awesome. 00:14:09.017 --> 00:14:09.287 Alan: it's 00:14:09.287 --> 00:14:12.437 interesting going from that, like two person where, you know, I assume you and 00:14:12.437 --> 00:14:14.833 Jon have a, you know, the, the amount of trust between 00:14:14.833 --> 00:14:16.643 you two must be crazy higher. 00:14:16.773 --> 00:14:19.213 And you know that, you know, you're doing your thing, he's doing his 00:14:19.213 --> 00:14:20.803 thing and it just kind of works out. 00:14:20.803 --> 00:14:24.073 You sync up occasionally bring in other people in that mix must always 00:14:24.073 --> 00:14:25.933 be, I, I, I know how I'd feel. 00:14:26.083 --> 00:14:28.303 It'd be like, but how do I trust you? 00:14:28.753 --> 00:14:30.913 And I'd want that kind of same relationship as well. 00:14:30.913 --> 00:14:33.673 Whereas it's like, just do whatever you feel is necessary. 00:14:33.913 --> 00:14:35.473 And let me know when you need something, right. 00:14:35.533 --> 00:14:37.063 It must be difficult finding that person. 00:14:37.788 --> 00:14:42.428 Justin: I mean, it was probably most stressful before we hired them because, 00:14:42.668 --> 00:14:47.798 you know, I mean, we had, well, the unknowns and even like financially, 00:14:47.828 --> 00:14:51.578 like by that point, transistor, by the time we hired Helen transistor 00:14:51.578 --> 00:14:55.988 was quite profitable, but it hadn't been profitable for like, you know, 00:14:55.988 --> 00:14:58.148 five years We've been like Jon 00:14:58.168 --> 00:15:02.158 and I both went full time in 2019. 00:15:02.228 --> 00:15:03.618 Alan: still remember that episode when you've 00:15:05.648 --> 00:15:06.248 just been crazy. 00:15:06.248 --> 00:15:08.918 How is this like an overnight success thing? 00:15:08.918 --> 00:15:09.158 Great. 00:15:09.158 --> 00:15:09.518 No, no. 00:15:09.528 --> 00:15:11.528 You got been there for the long haul, right? 00:15:11.528 --> 00:15:13.268 I know that this took a long time to 00:15:13.578 --> 00:15:14.078 get going. 00:15:14.078 --> 00:15:14.318 Right, 00:15:15.328 --> 00:15:15.718 Justin: Yeah. 00:15:15.748 --> 00:15:19.228 I mean, at the time it felt like it took forever for us to get to that point. 00:15:19.468 --> 00:15:25.738 And, uh, in retrospect it actually happened fairly quickly, but, um, yeah, 00:15:25.798 --> 00:15:30.725 I think a lot of our stress before we hired Helen and Jason was just like, we 00:15:30.725 --> 00:15:34.325 knew we could afford it, but do we want it does this, what we want to invest in? 00:15:34.325 --> 00:15:37.745 Cause it's like, you're investing in this for a long time and 00:15:37.865 --> 00:15:39.095 COVID had just happened. 00:15:39.095 --> 00:15:42.595 And you know, we had that thought of, you know, like, thank God we don't 00:15:42.595 --> 00:15:45.385 have employees during this because maybe we'd have to let people go. 00:15:45.385 --> 00:15:46.475 And, yeah. 00:15:46.475 --> 00:15:48.665 So I think we had some of that stress and then. 00:15:49.108 --> 00:15:52.528 Yeah, there's just always this unknown of like, what's it gonna be like to add more 00:15:52.528 --> 00:15:57.482 people to this mix, but Helen had been working with us on a part-time contract 00:15:57.482 --> 00:16:03.995 basis already for quite a while, and I'd known her forever through Mega Maker yeah. 00:16:04.085 --> 00:16:05.575 Uh, probably as long as Jon 00:16:05.735 --> 00:16:06.605 I've known Helen. 00:16:07.175 --> 00:16:09.065 And so, you know, that felt 00:16:09.065 --> 00:16:09.515 like, 00:16:10.155 --> 00:16:11.925 Alan: Just kind of a natural progression, right? 00:16:12.005 --> 00:16:14.885 Justin: yeah, not, not a big jump there. 00:16:15.095 --> 00:16:17.585 And Jon had worked with Jason before. 00:16:17.825 --> 00:16:22.368 I didn't know him, but, honestly, a lot of that was knowing that it would 00:16:22.368 --> 00:16:25.788 probably be good for Jon to have someone that could work alongside him. 00:16:26.328 --> 00:16:32.118 Um, even for his enjoyment and, you know, mental health and everything 00:16:32.118 --> 00:16:33.468 else, like just to feel like. 00:16:34.173 --> 00:16:38.463 Someone else can look at his code and it's not all resting on his shoulders. 00:16:39.063 --> 00:16:41.493 Um, if it felt like that would be a good move. 00:16:41.493 --> 00:16:45.590 So, uh, and in both cases, it's just been unbelievable. 00:16:45.590 --> 00:16:50.450 Like both of them are incredible and to see what we've achieved 00:16:50.450 --> 00:16:53.763 already is just kind of amazing. 00:16:53.763 --> 00:16:57.453 And it doesn't feel like we're like, grinding super hard either. 00:16:57.453 --> 00:17:00.603 It feels like we have a nice pace of everything. 00:17:00.633 --> 00:17:06.153 Like, you know, it's not like things got, things just are kind of natural. 00:17:06.213 --> 00:17:06.903 Rhythm 00:17:07.353 --> 00:17:09.633 is pretty similar, but we're just getting way more 00:17:09.633 --> 00:17:10.173 done. 00:17:10.323 --> 00:17:10.503 Alan: Yeah. 00:17:10.983 --> 00:17:14.493 I mean, just, just uncoupling that one person from development 00:17:14.493 --> 00:17:18.393 and one person from everything else is like a huge relief. 00:17:18.393 --> 00:17:19.013 I can imagine. 00:17:19.033 --> 00:17:21.573 It's just like, yeah, I'm not responsible for everything anymore. 00:17:21.783 --> 00:17:22.113 It's 00:17:22.113 --> 00:17:26.073 just, you know, there's certain stuff, which, and as you said, it keeps, yeah. 00:17:26.103 --> 00:17:27.013 Keeps you saying right. 00:17:27.623 --> 00:17:28.253 Justin: Yeah. 00:17:28.463 --> 00:17:29.813 Yeah, It's it's on. 00:17:29.813 --> 00:17:34.583 And we have a staff meeting every Thursday and it's just kind of nice 00:17:34.583 --> 00:17:38.183 having it's almost like when it was just Jon and I, it was easier and 00:17:38.183 --> 00:17:42.473 I, for him and I to not show up for stuff, uh, but now we have these 00:17:42.473 --> 00:17:44.153 other people that are depending on us. 00:17:44.213 --> 00:17:48.563 And so it's like, well, we got to show up on Thursday or I'll look 00:17:48.563 --> 00:17:51.233 like a doofus, you know, if I don't make it to my own staff meeting. 00:17:52.433 --> 00:17:58.433 So, uh, that part too, just having, we're now accountable to these other people. 00:17:58.883 --> 00:18:00.233 Um, yeah, 00:18:00.278 --> 00:18:00.608 Mario: yeah, 00:18:01.018 --> 00:18:01.378 Think you have 00:18:01.378 --> 00:18:02.548 responsibilities now. 00:18:02.723 --> 00:18:05.333 Justin: yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. 00:18:05.843 --> 00:18:06.683 And it's just nice. 00:18:06.713 --> 00:18:09.833 It's nice having other people there, you know, I think this 00:18:09.833 --> 00:18:11.363 is probably like four or five 00:18:11.363 --> 00:18:15.053 people is like the optimal kind of team size. 00:18:15.213 --> 00:18:17.863 Alan: I can imagine if it feels just about right. 00:18:17.893 --> 00:18:21.343 Doesn't it, it says for this kind of product is, this is what always, um, 00:18:21.583 --> 00:18:25.003 again, I think I've, I've been around this world for too long to think, to 00:18:25.003 --> 00:18:29.113 imagine like transistor growing into like 20 people, 30 people, you, it, 00:18:29.173 --> 00:18:31.813 you can't what, how, what, what they do 00:18:32.828 --> 00:18:33.188 Justin: I can't 00:18:33.583 --> 00:18:34.753 Alan: no, you just kind of imagined it, right? 00:18:34.783 --> 00:18:37.543 I mean, you know that the industry, obviously other 00:18:37.543 --> 00:18:40.663 people do it and the industry could probably support it, but it's like, 00:18:40.663 --> 00:18:43.033 is that the company you want to run is that the life you want to lead? 00:18:43.093 --> 00:18:43.363 Probably 00:18:43.363 --> 00:18:43.483 not. 00:18:43.528 --> 00:18:44.188 Justin: Yeah. 00:18:44.488 --> 00:18:44.758 Yeah. 00:18:44.758 --> 00:18:46.138 I mean, it's yeah. 00:18:46.138 --> 00:18:55.528 I mean, the, I can't, because I don't actually know, there's not a clear path 00:18:55.588 --> 00:18:59.545 to capturing 20 times more market share. 00:18:59.590 --> 00:18:59.920 Alan: Right. 00:19:00.595 --> 00:19:05.275 Justin: Like I think transistor has maybe, I don't know, two, 3% of the 00:19:05.275 --> 00:19:08.305 paid podcast hosting market and. 00:19:09.270 --> 00:19:14.340 You know, I'm hoping that we can get back to higher growth percentages 00:19:14.340 --> 00:19:18.360 and a lot of unlocking that was like, we need to unlock podcasts websites. 00:19:18.690 --> 00:19:23.130 We've got this next thing we're working on is we're going to allow anybody to 00:19:23.130 --> 00:19:25.230 use the podcast website feature for free. 00:19:25.470 --> 00:19:27.840 You can just insert your existing RSS feed. 00:19:28.320 --> 00:19:31.350 And we think that's going to be like, that could be an 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:33.510 unlock, a ton of growth for us. 00:19:33.510 --> 00:19:36.600 Cause we'll have this like freemium product that if you already have 00:19:36.600 --> 00:19:41.057 a podcast, you just put in your RSS feed and then it, rolls out 00:19:41.117 --> 00:19:43.007 a transistor website for you. 00:19:43.007 --> 00:19:46.637 That's sponsored by transistor, but then you're in the product. 00:19:46.667 --> 00:19:49.667 So people will be able to see like analytics, they'll click on the 00:19:49.667 --> 00:19:52.847 analytics tab and it'll say, well, if you were on transistor, you 00:19:52.847 --> 00:19:54.167 could see analytics like these. 00:19:54.167 --> 00:19:56.987 And there'll be able to click on the episodes tab and they'll say, well, if 00:19:56.987 --> 00:19:59.657 you were on transistor, you'd be able to, you know, see episodes like this. 00:20:00.617 --> 00:20:01.787 So we're really excited about. 00:20:03.342 --> 00:20:07.782 But like 20 times growth so we could grow like to 20, 30 people. 00:20:08.327 --> 00:20:08.567 Alan: Yeah. 00:20:09.042 --> 00:20:09.972 Justin: I don't think so. 00:20:10.591 --> 00:20:11.161 Mario: Yeah. 00:20:11.191 --> 00:20:13.921 So is this a free account at all? 00:20:13.921 --> 00:20:15.691 They'll be able to do is just 00:20:15.901 --> 00:20:16.831 have the website 00:20:16.882 --> 00:20:17.332 Justin: yeah, 00:20:17.941 --> 00:20:18.361 Mario: Okay. 00:20:18.661 --> 00:20:20.731 Even if they're hosting their 00:20:20.731 --> 00:20:22.051 podcast elsewhere. 00:20:22.822 --> 00:20:23.272 Justin: Like if 00:20:23.272 --> 00:20:27.382 they're hosting it on anchor and they just don't want that crappy anchor website, 00:20:27.412 --> 00:20:33.892 they can, they can put their anchor RSS feed in this new thing and it'll create 00:20:33.892 --> 00:20:37.972 them a transistor website and we're launching some new templates, soon. 00:20:37.972 --> 00:20:41.452 So right now we have one new one and then the classic one, but we're going 00:20:41.452 --> 00:20:46.582 to have more looks and things they can choose, but then it'll have a banner 00:20:46.582 --> 00:20:50.812 at the bottom saying if it's free saying, Hey, you know, this podcast 00:20:50.812 --> 00:20:53.032 hosting websites provided by transistor 00:20:53.726 --> 00:20:54.086 Mario: Yup. 00:20:54.136 --> 00:20:54.406 Yup. 00:20:54.446 --> 00:20:54.896 Totally. 00:20:55.517 --> 00:20:58.217 Justin: So we'll get some advertising that way, but then 00:20:58.217 --> 00:21:01.127 also it's, it's like a way for 00:21:01.127 --> 00:21:05.537 us to reach out to all these people hosting on Libsyn and anchor and 00:21:05.717 --> 00:21:06.047 everywhere 00:21:06.162 --> 00:21:08.922 Alan: I mean, especially if people are sharing on social media or any 00:21:08.922 --> 00:21:11.472 way, you know, that they're sharing links to that new episode and things. 00:21:11.472 --> 00:21:14.532 That's a perfect way for you to get potential new customers 00:21:14.532 --> 00:21:14.682 to 00:21:14.737 --> 00:21:15.457 Justin: Yeah. 00:21:15.582 --> 00:21:16.002 Alan: It's nice. 00:21:16.266 --> 00:21:17.256 Mario: That's really smart. 00:21:17.256 --> 00:21:17.466 That's 00:21:17.466 --> 00:21:17.526 a 00:21:17.887 --> 00:21:20.977 Justin: well, the biggest thing is like, I want to be able 00:21:20.977 --> 00:21:26.257 to get people who are using other products to try us out in a non douchey way. 00:21:26.287 --> 00:21:31.177 You know, like, uh, one of our competitors, a cast just got, uh, you can 00:21:31.177 --> 00:21:35.977 see how people react to things and they, they, they took the email address that is 00:21:35.977 --> 00:21:38.167 embedded in the RSS feed of every podcast. 00:21:38.407 --> 00:21:41.197 And just spammed everybody saying, Hey, it looks like you're on transistor. 00:21:41.197 --> 00:21:42.877 Do you want to switch to a cast? 00:21:43.477 --> 00:21:45.277 And the blow back from the. 00:21:46.277 --> 00:21:49.937 It was clear, like we do, we don't want to do anything like that. 00:21:49.937 --> 00:21:51.467 Like people did not like it. 00:21:51.677 --> 00:21:55.937 And, um, I don't even know how effective it was for a cast, but this 00:21:55.937 --> 00:21:58.217 feels like the perfect Trojan horse. 00:21:58.217 --> 00:22:01.037 It's like, we're giving something people really want, which 00:22:01.037 --> 00:22:02.357 is a nice podcast website. 00:22:03.257 --> 00:22:06.407 And now all of a sudden they're in the product and we can just say, 00:22:06.587 --> 00:22:08.027 Hey, if you want to switch, you 00:22:08.027 --> 00:22:10.967 just click this button and then you can switch. 00:22:11.172 --> 00:22:11.712 Alan: Exactly. 00:22:13.092 --> 00:22:13.842 Look, there you go. 00:22:13.877 --> 00:22:16.547 Justin: yeah, all they need to do is forward their old 00:22:16.637 --> 00:22:18.677 RSS feed and it's, it's done. 00:22:18.677 --> 00:22:18.977 Right. 00:22:19.262 --> 00:22:19.652 Alan: Very nice. 00:22:20.537 --> 00:22:22.397 Justin: So, yeah, that's coming soon. 00:22:22.397 --> 00:22:25.140 And, it's going to be, I mean, you never know, you always 00:22:25.265 --> 00:22:25.475 Alan: Yeah. 00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:27.780 Justin: are going to be massive and then you launch 00:22:27.780 --> 00:22:27.900 them. 00:22:27.959 --> 00:22:29.669 Mario: Uh, it's that's, that's awesome. 00:22:29.739 --> 00:22:34.169 It's been, it's been a lot of fun to see you, grow and, uh, get 00:22:34.169 --> 00:22:35.459 to the point where you are now. 00:22:35.489 --> 00:22:37.559 Cause I remember I started. 00:22:38.334 --> 00:22:41.814 Uh, I found out about you from a podcast that I listened to 00:22:42.381 --> 00:22:43.581 Uh, you did an interview. 00:22:43.581 --> 00:22:45.541 I think it was The Changelog. 00:22:46.491 --> 00:22:48.681 uh, and it was when you were 00:22:48.681 --> 00:22:51.201 doing the a hundred things in a year. 00:22:51.831 --> 00:22:52.671 I think it was. 00:22:52.761 --> 00:22:53.331 Um, 00:22:53.377 --> 00:22:54.637 Justin: What a mistake that was 00:22:59.751 --> 00:23:00.441 Mario: I bet it was 00:23:00.441 --> 00:23:00.741 super 00:23:00.741 --> 00:23:04.551 challenging, but you know, that gave you a lot of exposure though. 00:23:04.551 --> 00:23:07.101 And, and that's how I found out about you and I, 00:23:07.161 --> 00:23:08.631 and I thought, wow, this is, this is 00:23:08.862 --> 00:23:10.032 Alan: I may be the same, actually. 00:23:10.032 --> 00:23:10.542 I did that. 00:23:10.542 --> 00:23:12.562 that could be, yeah, it rings a bell, 00:23:13.541 --> 00:23:14.081 Mario: Yeah, 00:23:14.247 --> 00:23:15.687 Justin: Yeah, I mean, Mega Maker. 00:23:15.987 --> 00:23:17.307 So the mega 00:23:17.307 --> 00:23:21.147 maker community was originally called product people. 00:23:21.447 --> 00:23:23.597 And before that it was called JFD 00:23:23.607 --> 00:23:25.047 I, and, 00:23:25.612 --> 00:23:25.702 Alan: I 00:23:25.702 --> 00:23:26.342 remember that as well. 00:23:27.082 --> 00:23:27.412 Wow. 00:23:28.121 --> 00:23:28.871 Mario: The NSF 00:23:28.871 --> 00:23:29.171 name? 00:23:30.087 --> 00:23:30.387 Justin: yeah. 00:23:30.417 --> 00:23:32.847 And so the, there was an evolution 00:23:32.847 --> 00:23:33.357 there. 00:23:34.004 --> 00:23:37.597 yeah, I mean, it's always hard to say what, got you here, it's 00:23:37.597 --> 00:23:41.887 hard to evaluate what of that was necessary and what was unnecessary. 00:23:41.887 --> 00:23:47.137 And, uh, for sure, like, I don't know what, how everything links up, 00:23:47.167 --> 00:23:53.227 but the big movements in my journey have all been related to connecting 00:23:53.227 --> 00:23:55.927 with people and doing things. 00:23:56.407 --> 00:23:59.737 And so, you know, like I connected with Jon. 00:23:59.737 --> 00:24:03.337 At this conference, but the reason I connected with Jon at that conference is 00:24:03.337 --> 00:24:06.187 that Chase Reeves invited me to go to it. 00:24:06.187 --> 00:24:10.117 And the reason Chase Reeves invited me to go to it is he had invited 00:24:10.117 --> 00:24:11.887 me to be on a panel in Las Vegas. 00:24:12.127 --> 00:24:17.497 And the reason he had done that is because he had read my, this is a webpage article. 00:24:17.827 --> 00:24:21.217 And the reason he had read it is because he saw it on hacker news. 00:24:21.577 --> 00:24:25.237 It there's like this sequence of events 00:24:25.957 --> 00:24:30.607 that without doing things and connecting with people, the 00:24:30.607 --> 00:24:32.827 other moves wouldn't be possible. 00:24:33.427 --> 00:24:39.367 So yeah, it's, it's one reason I'm still so excited about Mega Maker is that, 00:24:40.867 --> 00:24:43.987 I mean, even like we hired Helen because I've known her forever, 00:24:44.227 --> 00:24:49.777 just having a network of people that you know, and who know you 00:24:50.377 --> 00:24:54.127 and being able to access all sorts of different skillsets and. 00:24:54.552 --> 00:24:55.812 you know, other things, 00:24:56.112 --> 00:24:57.672 it's just like a super power. 00:24:57.707 --> 00:24:59.017 Alan: mean, I think one of the 00:24:59.417 --> 00:25:00.837 really nice things about Mega Maker 00:25:00.857 --> 00:25:02.207 versus, you know, um, uh, I'm just 00:25:02.207 --> 00:25:02.867 looking at my slack. 00:25:02.867 --> 00:25:05.897 There's, I'm probably in like 20 different slack say, uh, and, 00:25:05.897 --> 00:25:08.417 uh, Mega Maker is kind of unique. 00:25:08.417 --> 00:25:11.687 And I think this is because of the type of people that a 00:25:11.717 --> 00:25:13.003 it's a paid, community. 00:25:13.003 --> 00:25:15.707 So there's like a, a certain bar that you it's like, you've gotta be 00:25:15.707 --> 00:25:17.320 willing to make a commitment here. 00:25:17.650 --> 00:25:22.300 Um, but also, you know, the fact that everybody in there is trying to do 00:25:22.360 --> 00:25:27.460 something and, uh, most of the time on their own or with somebody else, 00:25:27.640 --> 00:25:32.080 and there's this desire to, to help others and to, to be part of something. 00:25:32.110 --> 00:25:36.220 Whereas, you know, I mean, very large accelerator slack over 00:25:36.220 --> 00:25:37.750 that, that I was involved in. 00:25:38.020 --> 00:25:40.420 And it's almost like a broadcast mechanism. 00:25:40.420 --> 00:25:41.620 It's a very different. 00:25:42.505 --> 00:25:43.765 Community they've got going on there. 00:25:43.915 --> 00:25:47.365 There's not the same, like, you know, like who can help all, like, I'm 00:25:47.365 --> 00:25:48.985 interested in this and people chip in. 00:25:49.165 --> 00:25:52.765 It's very much like I'm doing this, I'm doing this, I'm doing, it feels more 00:25:52.765 --> 00:25:56.855 like a sales channel than, than a natural support network, which, you know, kind of 00:25:57.055 --> 00:25:59.405 Mega Maker is definitely unique in that. 00:25:59.527 --> 00:25:59.827 Justin: Yeah. 00:25:59.857 --> 00:26:00.637 Oh, that's good to hear. 00:26:00.637 --> 00:26:02.887 I mean, that's the idea, right? 00:26:02.887 --> 00:26:06.967 Is that it, it, uh, and I still think it's a super power. 00:26:06.997 --> 00:26:07.417 Like 00:26:08.333 --> 00:26:11.093 there's so many times in the transistor slack where I'm like, 00:26:11.371 --> 00:26:13.651 we're trying to figure something out and I'm just like, I'm just going 00:26:13.651 --> 00:26:15.331 to go over to Mega Maker and ask. 00:26:15.691 --> 00:26:18.721 And then what would take us days to figure out somebody. 00:26:19.621 --> 00:26:22.441 In the community can just help us out with right away. 00:26:22.471 --> 00:26:24.965 It's like it's such a advantage. 00:26:24.995 --> 00:26:26.795 It's like a secret weapon. 00:26:27.071 --> 00:26:30.731 And, even like, there's some people who aren't super active every month, 00:26:30.731 --> 00:26:36.761 but I remember who they are and I can be like, ah, who was that, that, 00:26:37.026 --> 00:26:39.440 you know, has expertise in this area? 00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:39.800 Or it can 00:26:39.800 --> 00:26:43.310 connect us with this person or whatever, and to remember, and 00:26:43.310 --> 00:26:44.300 to be able to seek them out and 00:26:44.300 --> 00:26:45.170 DM them. 00:26:45.890 --> 00:26:46.160 it's 00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:46.730 just, Yeah. 00:26:46.730 --> 00:26:47.810 there's nothing like it. 00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:48.070 Alan: Yeah. 00:26:48.280 --> 00:26:50.080 I mean, I think it is difficult also. 00:26:50.080 --> 00:26:53.740 I mean, it's something I suffer from a lot is it's difficult to ask for help 00:26:53.770 --> 00:26:54.520 just because it's 00:26:54.520 --> 00:26:56.980 like, you know, is this a, is this a stupid question? 00:26:56.980 --> 00:26:59.890 You know, B you know, like who cares, what I'm doing? 00:26:59.890 --> 00:27:05.740 And it is often a very difficult hurdle to jump over and put it. 00:27:05.740 --> 00:27:07.930 So it's nice to see other people doing it and thinking, okay, 00:27:07.930 --> 00:27:09.310 I should probably try that. 00:27:09.310 --> 00:27:14.210 And I know there's a million times I should have, and, you know, I should do. 00:27:14.510 --> 00:27:17.870 And just say like, you know, what, what what's other, what's sort of people's 00:27:17.870 --> 00:27:19.160 opinions about what I should do here. 00:27:19.160 --> 00:27:21.500 You know, like, as I mentioned before, you know, this whole thing 00:27:21.500 --> 00:27:24.410 about like, my product is like, whoa, who do I talk to this about? 00:27:24.830 --> 00:27:26.900 And it's, um, it's like, what do I do next? 00:27:26.900 --> 00:27:27.470 Where do I go? 00:27:27.470 --> 00:27:29.450 And you know, it's, especially when you're on your own. 00:27:29.450 --> 00:27:33.110 And especially when you're, you know, a few thousand miles away from other 00:27:33.110 --> 00:27:37.220 people who are doing this, you get caught up in your own like thought patterns. 00:27:37.250 --> 00:27:39.020 And that can be dangerous. 00:27:39.940 --> 00:27:40.510 Justin: yeah. 00:27:40.990 --> 00:27:41.530 Yeah. 00:27:41.830 --> 00:27:46.084 I mean, yeah, I understand that feeling of like, not wanting to ask people. 00:27:46.430 --> 00:27:48.890 but over time I've definitely trained myself. 00:27:49.220 --> 00:27:53.300 Like my cause Jon is his first instinct. 00:27:53.300 --> 00:27:57.890 Isn't always to ask people and I just, for me, it's, it's become such a hack 00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:00.350 that I'm just like, let's just ask, uh, 00:28:00.724 --> 00:28:02.224 Mario: I think that's a, that's a 00:28:02.224 --> 00:28:04.294 general trait. 00:28:04.294 --> 00:28:06.004 If you will, of developers 00:28:06.035 --> 00:28:06.665 Justin: Yeah. 00:28:07.115 --> 00:28:09.265 Mario: we all tend to, you know, just a few more 00:28:09.265 --> 00:28:09.565 minutes. 00:28:09.565 --> 00:28:10.555 I can figure it out. 00:28:10.555 --> 00:28:10.915 I, you know, 00:28:11.079 --> 00:28:13.376 Alan: people that, you know, that there's, uh, whatever the, 00:28:13.376 --> 00:28:15.416 the, the, the traits, how the tendencies are, what, 00:28:15.416 --> 00:28:16.836 whatever reason it is, 00:28:17.076 --> 00:28:20.376 people who are doing this kind of thing on their own, we're doing it on our own 00:28:20.376 --> 00:28:23.546 because we want to do it on our own. 00:28:23.556 --> 00:28:23.886 Right. 00:28:24.156 --> 00:28:27.396 It's not like I want to be part of a 20 person team and we can build 00:28:27.396 --> 00:28:30.726 the thing and I'll do this, but it's like, no, I can do the whole thing. 00:28:30.966 --> 00:28:31.806 How are you going? 00:28:31.836 --> 00:28:34.056 Actually, I don't know this cause somebody helped me is like 00:28:34.056 --> 00:28:35.496 a, it's a difficult thing to do 00:28:36.129 --> 00:28:36.729 Justin: Yeah. 00:28:36.759 --> 00:28:38.709 It's it's underrated though. 00:28:38.766 --> 00:28:39.606 Alan: Oh, absolutely. 00:28:39.666 --> 00:28:40.086 Absolutely. 00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:44.649 Justin: also, I mean, I shouldn't, I, I, maybe not everyone can do this and 00:28:44.649 --> 00:28:49.839 maybe it would turn out different for other people, but I found, uh, especially 00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:51.879 even leaning into that vulnerability. 00:28:52.949 --> 00:28:54.929 I just don't know, I need help. 00:28:54.989 --> 00:28:59.966 And, I've even been willing to play, uh, the idiot more than I am 00:29:00.266 --> 00:29:05.139 in order to seek help, because it's just leaning into that and being 00:29:05.139 --> 00:29:08.522 like, yeah, I don't know everything. 00:29:09.182 --> 00:29:11.672 And, I just wanna, I want to be curious. 00:29:11.672 --> 00:29:15.392 I want to, I want to be open to, other people might have 00:29:15.392 --> 00:29:16.832 the answer that I don't have. 00:29:17.342 --> 00:29:19.862 And instead of me having to go through a lot of pain to get 00:29:19.862 --> 00:29:21.722 there, I can just like reach out. 00:29:22.862 --> 00:29:25.532 I think the other thing that really, the other thing, reason 00:29:25.532 --> 00:29:27.692 I'm ex I'm passionate about that. 00:29:28.622 --> 00:29:32.372 I'm trying to teach this to my kids too, because it feels like I learned 00:29:32.372 --> 00:29:38.342 this too late is one thing that really unlocked my potential was. 00:29:38.857 --> 00:29:45.307 People like Adam Wathan and Taylor Ottewell kind of like showing me their 00:29:45.307 --> 00:29:52.967 bank account how eye opening that was to see how well they were doing. 00:29:53.327 --> 00:29:58.127 And that's really what unlocked my, this, kind of maniacal 00:29:58.127 --> 00:30:00.737 focus I have on the market. 00:30:00.797 --> 00:30:02.657 It's all about the market. 00:30:02.687 --> 00:30:04.157 It's about market demand. 00:30:04.157 --> 00:30:10.877 It's about how many people are actively searching for this, because I saw 00:30:10.877 --> 00:30:13.097 it with Adam and Taylor in this. 00:30:13.790 --> 00:30:16.533 Incredibly like their dollars. 00:30:16.533 --> 00:30:19.473 I could just see the dollars shooting into their bank account. 00:30:19.533 --> 00:30:25.443 And that was them being open and vulnerable with me and me in some ways, 00:30:25.443 --> 00:30:27.693 being willing to ask, like, what's going? 00:30:27.693 --> 00:30:29.073 on there And how are things going? 00:30:29.073 --> 00:30:29.823 And they're like, oh, I'll 00:30:29.823 --> 00:30:30.183 show you. 00:30:30.183 --> 00:30:30.603 And it's like, 00:30:31.030 --> 00:30:37.000 Alan: Oh, I mean, we do get caught up in this again, it's difficult to 00:30:37.490 --> 00:30:42.430 translate what you see on Twitter and other networks and especially with the, 00:30:42.430 --> 00:30:45.960 the whole, um, investment things being the way it is, you know, there's just 00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:48.630 numbers and the meaningless, and you think, you know, and there's a, the 00:30:48.660 --> 00:30:53.100 pre fixed preconception of how much you should be earning as a developer. 00:30:53.100 --> 00:30:53.310 Right? 00:30:53.520 --> 00:30:54.960 I mean, yeah, it's a lot higher now. 00:30:55.030 --> 00:30:59.310 It's not great if you're in Japan, but that's what, that's what you should be 00:30:59.310 --> 00:31:01.110 earning as a person writing software. 00:31:01.350 --> 00:31:04.170 And it's difficult sometimes to, to connect the two it's like, 00:31:04.170 --> 00:31:04.920 well, there's all this money. 00:31:04.920 --> 00:31:06.360 You need that money to make big companies. 00:31:06.360 --> 00:31:09.480 They make the company make some money and you get this much, um, yeah. 00:31:09.870 --> 00:31:13.500 To realize, especially when you are interested and you want to do 00:31:13.500 --> 00:31:17.430 it all, and you want to build a, a small, sustainable, lifestyle. 00:31:18.060 --> 00:31:20.580 It doesn't have to be on a really tight budget. 00:31:20.580 --> 00:31:20.670 Right. 00:31:21.808 --> 00:31:22.468 Justin: Yeah. 00:31:22.738 --> 00:31:29.788 And, and also to be okay with, I mean, so much of what we expect or desire or seek. 00:31:29.848 --> 00:31:33.358 I mean, there's a, there's a negative side to this too, which is you 00:31:33.358 --> 00:31:37.768 compare yourself to other people and feel shitty when you don't match up. 00:31:38.368 --> 00:31:42.679 But for me, I mean, a lot of my friends and peers make 00:31:42.679 --> 00:31:44.479 significantly more money than I do. 00:31:45.278 --> 00:31:48.428 but there was a point, like there was a point where I 00:31:48.428 --> 00:31:50.779 felt shitty being Nathan Barry's friend, 00:31:50.779 --> 00:31:54.139 because it was just like this, this kid is just doing so 00:31:54.139 --> 00:31:54.619 good. 00:31:54.679 --> 00:31:55.369 And I just can't. 00:31:55.906 --> 00:31:56.836 Alan: I'm a complete failure. 00:31:56.836 --> 00:31:57.316 What am I doing? 00:31:57.464 --> 00:31:58.124 Justin: get there. 00:31:58.694 --> 00:32:02.924 Um, but there was a threshold like once transistor started 00:32:02.924 --> 00:32:04.274 it and started doing well. 00:32:04.514 --> 00:32:08.384 And you know, I started doing both Jon and I like, this is the best 00:32:08.384 --> 00:32:10.004 money we've ever made in our lives. 00:32:10.613 --> 00:32:12.233 it's not Nathan Barry money. 00:32:12.263 --> 00:32:13.823 It's not Taylor Outwell money. 00:32:13.823 --> 00:32:17.963 It's not even like Marie Pulin, she's got this notion course. 00:32:17.993 --> 00:32:21.563 And I think she probably makes more money than I do from transistor. 00:32:21.886 --> 00:32:25.354 but there was this threshold I cross where like, it's like, this 00:32:25.354 --> 00:32:28.114 is giving me an incredible life. 00:32:28.114 --> 00:32:32.974 And these other people just inspire me now as opposed to feeling bad. 00:32:33.784 --> 00:32:37.197 And I know that's hard to balance, but overall, I think 00:32:37.197 --> 00:32:38.727 it's been inspirational to me. 00:32:38.907 --> 00:32:40.437 And what kind of unlocked it? 00:32:40.677 --> 00:32:45.067 I felt crappy before, because it was like, Well, I'm never going to do anything like 00:32:45.097 --> 00:32:48.067 Nathan, you know, all I'm just garbage. 00:32:48.517 --> 00:32:55.657 Uh, but now that, what, what I think what clicked for me was 00:32:55.987 --> 00:32:58.447 it's the market, it's the market. 00:32:58.477 --> 00:33:01.507 You've got to look for evidence of demand. 00:33:01.537 --> 00:33:05.767 People actively waking up every single 00:33:05.767 --> 00:33:08.017 day, go into Google. 00:33:08.017 --> 00:33:12.997 There's a new person searching for podcast hosting, you know, like that. 00:33:13.131 --> 00:33:16.071 and, and when, uh, when you can see it and when you can feel it 00:33:16.374 --> 00:33:20.274 and, and it's also like, you can feel it in terms of its magnitude. 00:33:20.486 --> 00:33:23.486 Like when Adam Wathan said he was going to do this refactoring 00:33:23.486 --> 00:33:25.736 UI thing, I was like, oh my God. 00:33:25.736 --> 00:33:29.662 That's like, Jarrod Drysdale is bootstrapping design, but new. 00:33:30.231 --> 00:33:34.551 And for this whole new market, that's never heard of Jarrod Drysdale. 00:33:35.271 --> 00:33:40.251 And Adam's also got this, a bigger audience, and he's also got the 00:33:40.251 --> 00:33:42.261 excitement of the Laravel community. 00:33:42.651 --> 00:33:46.374 You can just see how all of those are going to magnify this 00:33:46.374 --> 00:33:47.274 thing that people 00:33:47.274 --> 00:33:48.264 already want, which 00:33:48.264 --> 00:33:49.364 is, you know, I'm a 00:33:49.364 --> 00:33:50.204 developer and I want to get 00:33:50.204 --> 00:33:50.714 better at 00:33:50.836 --> 00:33:51.076 Alan: Yup. 00:33:51.946 --> 00:33:52.546 It's interesting. 00:33:52.546 --> 00:33:56.206 It's almost like, you know, being part of the original. 00:33:56.961 --> 00:34:00.081 The original web developer kind of world, especially with 00:34:00.251 --> 00:34:02.391 the post .com bubble burst. 00:34:02.751 --> 00:34:06.111 Um, it was, you know, that was when my first product that I 00:34:06.111 --> 00:34:09.321 sold that I, you know, was like, hold on, I can do this on my own. 00:34:09.321 --> 00:34:11.721 I can build sites, I can build things. 00:34:12.081 --> 00:34:16.311 And so, you know, that was early two thousands and it was, I remember then, 00:34:16.311 --> 00:34:20.091 you know, like I had a photo sharing, mobile photo sharing application site. 00:34:20.361 --> 00:34:23.661 This was before flicker before anything 00:34:23.661 --> 00:34:24.471 else that followed. 00:34:24.831 --> 00:34:28.371 And the fact then, you know, you almost felt you couldn't do what other 00:34:28.371 --> 00:34:30.651 people were doing because the market was saturated. 00:34:30.921 --> 00:34:33.171 And I remember, you know, my thing when flicker came out, oh, 00:34:33.201 --> 00:34:37.191 flicker sold to Yahoo for what, $35 million, I think at the time, 00:34:37.431 --> 00:34:38.851 which is just outrageous obscene. 00:34:38.851 --> 00:34:41.511 And that's like, and it was like, well done, but we can't compete with 00:34:41.511 --> 00:34:45.441 that, that the photo sharing market is finished because flicker own it. 00:34:45.741 --> 00:34:49.191 And it's kind of, I mean, the same thing with friends, um, my space. 00:34:49.311 --> 00:34:49.401 We 00:34:50.054 --> 00:34:50.444 Justin: yeah, 00:34:50.535 --> 00:34:50.805 Mario: Oh, yeah. 00:34:50.871 --> 00:34:51.591 Alan: I'm friends though. 00:34:51.591 --> 00:34:52.291 And I'll arrest you. 00:34:52.301 --> 00:34:53.661 You think the social media market? 00:34:53.691 --> 00:34:54.111 Oh, that's it. 00:34:54.111 --> 00:34:54.951 No one can compete with 00:34:54.951 --> 00:34:55.521 Facebook now. 00:34:55.521 --> 00:34:55.791 Right. 00:34:55.851 --> 00:34:59.151 And, uh, it, whereas, you know, almost the opposite is true. 00:34:59.151 --> 00:35:00.171 You want to be looking, hold on. 00:35:00.411 --> 00:35:03.981 That huge people are interested in this industry, this market, and 00:35:03.981 --> 00:35:05.121 they're actively searching for it. 00:35:05.121 --> 00:35:07.701 And they're probably not entirely happy with the things they're doing or 00:35:07.701 --> 00:35:08.841 they're looking for a different take on 00:35:08.841 --> 00:35:08.991 it. 00:35:08.991 --> 00:35:09.291 So 00:35:10.004 --> 00:35:10.454 Justin: yeah. 00:35:10.994 --> 00:35:15.734 If anyone's looking for flicker alternative, um, w I mean, 00:35:15.734 --> 00:35:20.474 flicker in those early startups are a little bit trickier because. 00:35:21.449 --> 00:35:22.169 At the time, it 00:35:22.169 --> 00:35:23.759 wasn't like a lot of people were paying for 00:35:24.111 --> 00:35:24.411 Alan: Right. 00:35:24.441 --> 00:35:25.191 No, there was no money. 00:35:25.971 --> 00:35:26.151 That's 00:35:26.151 --> 00:35:27.051 all, as I found out. 00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:31.469 Justin: So what the challenge back then was like, you literally had 00:35:31.469 --> 00:35:35.639 to get this, like shoot a straight arrow, get a tech crunch, article, 00:35:35.879 --> 00:35:38.639 meet the right people and hope that one 00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:42.189 of the, you know, three or four bigger companies at the time would 00:35:42.189 --> 00:35:42.779 acquire you 00:35:42.779 --> 00:35:43.139 Alan: exactly. 00:35:43.191 --> 00:35:43.731 That, That was. 00:35:43.731 --> 00:35:43.881 it. 00:35:43.911 --> 00:35:44.271 That was. 00:35:45.949 --> 00:35:48.649 Justin: But now it's changed. 00:35:48.739 --> 00:35:49.129 I mean, 00:35:49.286 --> 00:35:49.496 Alan: Yeah. 00:35:50.179 --> 00:35:54.319 Justin: even like the progression of everything's just more mature, 00:35:54.469 --> 00:35:56.419 these categories are more mature. 00:35:56.419 --> 00:35:57.049 SAS, 00:35:57.049 --> 00:35:58.789 as a concept is more mature. 00:35:59.029 --> 00:35:59.809 The billing is 00:35:59.809 --> 00:36:03.799 easier that like there's so many more advantages for Indies 00:36:03.976 --> 00:36:04.156 Alan: Yeah. 00:36:04.666 --> 00:36:05.896 There's just so many more people. 00:36:05.956 --> 00:36:07.306 I mean, that's the crazy thing as well. 00:36:07.606 --> 00:36:11.176 Everyone was just still using dial-up and you know, you're lucky if they check their 00:36:11.266 --> 00:36:11.956 email once a 00:36:11.956 --> 00:36:12.406 week, you know, 00:36:13.149 --> 00:36:13.629 Justin: Yeah. 00:36:13.659 --> 00:36:14.649 well, well, do you guys have 00:36:14.649 --> 00:36:14.979 kids. 00:36:15.226 --> 00:36:15.856 Alan: if your one, 00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:16.470 Mario: I don't, 00:36:16.974 --> 00:36:17.484 Justin: Okay. 00:36:18.144 --> 00:36:20.214 So how old is your kid? 00:36:20.214 --> 00:36:21.984 Allen 11. 00:36:22.224 --> 00:36:26.604 See, I had this thought with my daughter, my daughter's 19, and I showed 00:36:26.604 --> 00:36:30.354 her, I had her doing a little writing project for me and a research project. 00:36:30.354 --> 00:36:32.934 And I showed her reform by Peter soon. 00:36:33.774 --> 00:36:35.244 And she was like, oh, this is cool. 00:36:35.244 --> 00:36:36.384 I've never seen anything like this 00:36:36.384 --> 00:36:36.894 before. 00:36:37.554 --> 00:36:41.584 And in my mind, I'm like Typeform, Woofu 00:36:41.646 --> 00:36:41.676 Alan: a 00:36:41.676 --> 00:36:42.036 50. 00:36:43.044 --> 00:36:48.924 Justin: But, But, it just reminded me that every day there's thousands of new 00:36:48.924 --> 00:36:54.354 customers coming online in gen Z who have never heard of any of these other things. 00:36:54.834 --> 00:36:57.774 And they're going to just be like, their boss is going to give them an assignment. 00:36:57.774 --> 00:36:59.154 Like, Hey, do a research project. 00:36:59.154 --> 00:37:00.684 You're probably going to need a survey tool. 00:37:00.894 --> 00:37:02.994 And they go, okay, well, best survey tool. 00:37:03.114 --> 00:37:05.844 Or they talked to their friends, what survey tools do you recommend? 00:37:05.844 --> 00:37:09.011 Or they, you know, so people are, you know, there's brand 00:37:09.011 --> 00:37:10.871 new customers born every day. 00:37:11.061 --> 00:37:14.441 And then the other thing is, there's people like us who are 00:37:14.441 --> 00:37:16.991 re-evaluating purchases, like how 00:37:16.991 --> 00:37:20.141 many project management apps have the three of us used 00:37:20.141 --> 00:37:21.221 in the context of our whole 00:37:21.221 --> 00:37:21.761 career, 00:37:22.931 --> 00:37:24.221 you know, as 00:37:24.387 --> 00:37:24.927 Mario: Exactly. 00:37:24.993 --> 00:37:25.773 Alan: And that's a crazy thing. 00:37:25.773 --> 00:37:26.583 And you see someone like 00:37:26.583 --> 00:37:29.853 Monday spending literally bazillions on like advertise me, like 00:37:30.123 --> 00:37:32.133 put project management is done, right? 00:37:32.733 --> 00:37:32.973 No, 00:37:32.983 --> 00:37:33.603 probably not. 00:37:34.091 --> 00:37:39.131 Justin: But it's not now every market and every category has its own dynamics. 00:37:39.371 --> 00:37:41.501 It has, there's a shape of demand there. 00:37:42.101 --> 00:37:45.641 Like I think project management in particular is probably pretty 00:37:45.641 --> 00:37:49.871 challenging, but there's sometimes an angle for an indie to get in there. 00:37:50.021 --> 00:37:54.761 Some categories I think are easier for Indies to get into than others. 00:37:55.481 --> 00:37:57.641 But the other thing is like 00:37:57.994 --> 00:38:01.264 somebody might've tried it five years ago and everybody was 00:38:01.264 --> 00:38:02.224 like, well, that didn't work. 00:38:02.224 --> 00:38:04.734 But the truth is that now it might be the right time. 00:38:05.301 --> 00:38:05.541 Alan: Yeah. 00:38:05.989 --> 00:38:10.752 Justin: Um, to try it again and, you know, like form software, maybe that 00:38:10.752 --> 00:38:12.342 wouldn't have worked five years ago, 00:38:12.569 --> 00:38:16.289 but now it's like, Typeform is actually old. 00:38:16.289 --> 00:38:16.679 Now 00:38:17.750 --> 00:38:18.200 Mario: Yeah. 00:38:18.260 --> 00:38:18.620 Yeah. 00:38:18.729 --> 00:38:20.709 Justin: we think of Typeform as the new kid on the block, 00:38:20.709 --> 00:38:22.599 but it's, it's, it's old. 00:38:23.059 --> 00:38:23.779 And so 00:38:24.056 --> 00:38:27.326 that that's the other thing is, and transistor benefited from this. 00:38:27.812 --> 00:38:31.322 honestly it was actually, it was nice that transistor came out when it did, because 00:38:31.322 --> 00:38:36.602 then, you know, a few months later, a bunch of other podcast hosting platforms 00:38:36.602 --> 00:38:41.912 came out, but it was nice being the first of the new kid on the block, like that 00:38:41.912 --> 00:38:47.162 whole batch, because there was just a lot of people who are waiting for the space to 00:38:47.162 --> 00:38:48.422 get kind of freshened up. 00:38:49.352 --> 00:38:50.582 And, you know, they'd been 00:38:50.582 --> 00:38:53.522 using Libsyn for 10 years and they're like, man, I just, what I like 00:38:53.522 --> 00:38:54.782 something different than this. 00:38:54.914 --> 00:38:55.784 Alan: Especially since, yeah. 00:38:55.784 --> 00:38:56.704 It's not going anywhere. 00:38:56.704 --> 00:38:56.804 It's 00:38:56.804 --> 00:38:57.464 not progressing. 00:38:57.564 --> 00:38:59.654 It's become like the established it's VC. 00:38:59.654 --> 00:39:00.014 IBM. 00:39:00.014 --> 00:39:00.224 Right. 00:39:01.062 --> 00:39:01.632 Justin: Yeah. 00:39:01.932 --> 00:39:02.172 Yeah. 00:39:02.172 --> 00:39:04.002 It's just like older or whatever. 00:39:04.399 --> 00:39:04.639 yeah. 00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:06.799 So Typeform is 2012. 00:39:06.799 --> 00:39:06.949 It's 00:39:06.949 --> 00:39:07.849 10 years old. 00:39:08.245 --> 00:39:08.725 Mario: it is. 00:39:08.725 --> 00:39:09.085 Yeah. 00:39:09.171 --> 00:39:09.621 Alan: That's crazy. 00:39:09.625 --> 00:39:10.615 Mario: been around for awhile. 00:39:10.851 --> 00:39:12.171 Alan: I just said, this still feels like, oh 00:39:12.171 --> 00:39:12.411 my God, 00:39:12.411 --> 00:39:13.191 that's new right now. 00:39:13.699 --> 00:39:14.119 Justin: know, 00:39:14.539 --> 00:39:18.769 I think of it as new as well, but it's it's, I think there's a lot of, 00:39:19.069 --> 00:39:22.969 this is like, like Calendly is 2010 00:39:23.869 --> 00:39:30.049 and so 12 years later, not a bad time to start savvy Cal because Calendly 00:39:30.049 --> 00:39:36.319 spent all this money and time carving out the category, but now there are 00:39:36.349 --> 00:39:38.779 people searching, Calendly alternatives. 00:39:39.409 --> 00:39:45.079 And, um, there's just your, your, your pathway to money 00:39:45.409 --> 00:39:47.779 and customers like for Derek. 00:39:47.779 --> 00:39:50.359 I think, you know, he could have asked himself. 00:39:51.794 --> 00:39:52.544 How many people do. 00:39:52.544 --> 00:39:53.954 I know that use Calendly. 00:39:54.014 --> 00:39:57.494 I mean, he personally, might've known 40 people and you just like to make a 00:39:57.494 --> 00:40:02.054 spreadsheet of all 40 people, and then you just like contact each one, one by one. 00:40:02.054 --> 00:40:03.374 That's what I did with transistor. 00:40:03.734 --> 00:40:07.634 So like everybody, I knew I had a podcast, I was like, emailed them and said, 00:40:07.634 --> 00:40:09.734 Hey, we're about to launch this thing. 00:40:10.574 --> 00:40:13.574 Would you be interested in switching for an early access price? 00:40:14.084 --> 00:40:17.264 And that got us our first, you know, a hundred customers 00:40:17.264 --> 00:40:17.774 probably. 00:40:20.196 --> 00:40:20.646 Alan: And that's 00:40:20.646 --> 00:40:21.546 what you should be doing Mario. 00:40:21.666 --> 00:40:21.876 Right. 00:40:21.906 --> 00:40:23.346 Because you've got a launch soon, right? 00:40:24.615 --> 00:40:25.685 Mario: I'm taking notes. 00:40:25.685 --> 00:40:26.225 I'm taking 00:40:26.225 --> 00:40:26.585 notes. 00:40:27.034 --> 00:40:29.584 Justin: Well, and you too, Alan, like I think like, 00:40:29.614 --> 00:40:31.024 that's, that's the way you could 00:40:31.024 --> 00:40:32.134 really test out, 00:40:32.674 --> 00:40:33.874 like really push dot 00:40:33.874 --> 00:40:39.274 plan is go make a list of everybody, you know, that's using something. 00:40:40.124 --> 00:40:43.514 And just go, okay, well, I'm going to reach out to these people and see if 00:40:43.514 --> 00:40:45.464 there's any chance that they would switch. 00:40:46.094 --> 00:40:47.894 And that will give you your answer. 00:40:47.924 --> 00:40:51.914 People would be able to tell you like, ah, like it's different than asking 00:40:51.914 --> 00:40:54.944 people if it's a good idea, because if you ask people to switch, they're like 00:40:55.004 --> 00:40:57.194 honest, you know, I ask people to switch. 00:40:57.644 --> 00:41:00.404 So maybe I asked 200 people if they'd switched to transistor. 00:41:00.404 --> 00:41:05.054 And a hundred said, yes, um, you know, a hundred people were like, no, 00:41:05.084 --> 00:41:08.924 it's just, I don't want to go through the hassle or I like where I'm at 00:41:08.984 --> 00:41:11.624 or your website socks or whatever. 00:41:11.624 --> 00:41:13.274 Like you, you heard it right away. 00:41:14.114 --> 00:41:18.464 And, uh, getting those answers I think is helpful. 00:41:19.454 --> 00:41:23.774 And you might also be able to, um, I always like pick 00:41:23.774 --> 00:41:25.514 up on these little anecdotes. 00:41:25.724 --> 00:41:29.964 So when I was talking to Taylor Ottewell, he was saying that 00:41:29.964 --> 00:41:31.764 they use base camp for one reason 00:41:31.764 --> 00:41:32.184 only. 00:41:32.184 --> 00:41:34.344 So they pay for base camp for one reason only. 00:41:34.344 --> 00:41:36.924 And that's to do these end of the day. 00:41:37.884 --> 00:41:38.754 Check-ins like, 00:41:38.754 --> 00:41:39.894 what did you work on? 00:41:40.191 --> 00:41:40.341 Alan: Yeah. 00:41:40.581 --> 00:41:42.441 I mean, that's exactly dot right there. 00:41:42.441 --> 00:41:43.821 That's the whole point is end of 00:41:43.821 --> 00:41:44.631 the day check-ins of 00:41:44.631 --> 00:41:45.771 what you've done and that's it. 00:41:45.784 --> 00:41:49.354 Justin: Yeah, so, well, that's what made me think of it is that if I don't know 00:41:49.354 --> 00:41:57.364 how widespread that use is, but if, if those are the kind of, uh, anecdotes and 00:41:57.394 --> 00:42:01.654 things I'd be pursuing, like, uh, you know, if there's people out there that are 00:42:01.654 --> 00:42:05.774 doing this then maybe I should, you know, 00:42:06.044 --> 00:42:07.724 be trying to connect with people like 00:42:08.026 --> 00:42:08.436 Alan: Right, right. 00:42:08.536 --> 00:42:08.686 As 00:42:08.686 --> 00:42:10.966 opposed to trying to convince new people to, 00:42:11.356 --> 00:42:11.926 to sign up. 00:42:11.956 --> 00:42:13.276 I mean, this is the thing is like, if you 00:42:13.276 --> 00:42:13.486 don't 00:42:13.486 --> 00:42:18.376 already do this suddenly asking, uh, a company of 10 people right today, we're 00:42:18.376 --> 00:42:19.696 going to start doing end of the day. 00:42:19.696 --> 00:42:21.346 Check-ins everyone's like, you want me to do what? 00:42:21.346 --> 00:42:23.266 I already use five pieces of software, you know? 00:42:23.446 --> 00:42:26.656 And it's kind of like this, this, this hard sell of like getting 00:42:26.656 --> 00:42:27.646 them to change their behavior. 00:42:27.676 --> 00:42:30.376 But if people are already doing this, then getting them to try 00:42:30.376 --> 00:42:32.566 something new is probably easier. 00:42:32.866 --> 00:42:33.106 You would 00:42:33.106 --> 00:42:33.646 hope, right? 00:42:34.339 --> 00:42:34.969 Justin: Yeah. 00:42:35.089 --> 00:42:35.689 Yeah. 00:42:36.259 --> 00:42:44.119 And, and even like, um, I would, if I was you Allen, I would go to that tweet 00:42:44.119 --> 00:42:46.519 that I made where I think I shared, 00:42:47.296 --> 00:42:48.526 oh, I do those check-ins. 00:42:48.526 --> 00:42:53.116 And in Mega Maker like yellow, green, red, like, how are you feeling 00:42:53.327 --> 00:42:53.827 Mario: Yes. 00:42:54.646 --> 00:42:57.766 Justin: it tweeted that, like I just tweeted, how are you feeling? 00:42:57.766 --> 00:43:04.008 But it would be interesting to see how people who responded 00:43:04.008 --> 00:43:05.958 to that and how they responded. 00:43:06.115 --> 00:43:08.553 And I don't know what the in is there. 00:43:09.421 --> 00:43:11.671 Those are the kinds of things I would be doing as I I'd just 00:43:11.671 --> 00:43:16.651 be like fishing around, seeing like who's already in motion. 00:43:17.131 --> 00:43:19.321 And is there a way I can connect with them? 00:43:19.860 --> 00:43:23.970 and you really want to invalidate your idea as quickly as possible. 00:43:23.970 --> 00:43:27.940 Like if it's not going to work, you want to know fairly quickly. 00:43:28.470 --> 00:43:31.770 I know that's hard like Joshua, Andrew tin, and I are working on 00:43:31.770 --> 00:43:37.560 this other product Meeps and we just haven't found the fit yet. 00:43:37.965 --> 00:43:42.660 And, I'm, I mean, for me, I, I can take more time on this one because 00:43:42.660 --> 00:43:46.938 transistors going well, but you know, eventually if we can't find it, we got 00:43:46.938 --> 00:43:51.014 to cut it loose because you know, you can keep trying to maneuver something 00:43:51.014 --> 00:43:54.554 and add new stuff and whatever. 00:43:54.554 --> 00:43:59.438 And if you, if you're just not finding that, that rushing river of customer. 00:43:59.743 --> 00:44:02.203 Interest it's it's best to just 00:44:02.415 --> 00:44:02.655 Alan: Hmm. 00:44:03.454 --> 00:44:05.224 Mario: the line outside of the coffee shop, right? 00:44:05.224 --> 00:44:05.404 Like 00:44:05.404 --> 00:44:07.314 you, you, like, you usually say, yeah, 00:44:07.393 --> 00:44:07.693 Justin: Yeah. 00:44:07.693 --> 00:44:08.473 Where can you see 00:44:08.473 --> 00:44:08.803 it? 00:44:08.863 --> 00:44:09.943 And I'm hoping it's 00:44:09.943 --> 00:44:10.333 there. 00:44:10.333 --> 00:44:11.803 I mean, I had some instincts 00:44:11.803 --> 00:44:13.483 that maybe there was something 00:44:13.483 --> 00:44:13.993 there. 00:44:14.448 --> 00:44:14.688 so I 00:44:14.688 --> 00:44:15.868 still hope it's there, but 00:44:16.490 --> 00:44:17.030 Alan: Again, in a 00:44:17.030 --> 00:44:17.840 similar way. 00:44:18.110 --> 00:44:18.350 Yeah. 00:44:18.380 --> 00:44:18.770 You've 00:44:18.770 --> 00:44:20.840 got to find that that's something 00:44:20.840 --> 00:44:22.370 about it that, that people that 00:44:22.430 --> 00:44:23.480 resonates with people, right. 00:44:23.480 --> 00:44:23.930 It's like 00:44:23.990 --> 00:44:24.740 building an online 00:44:24.740 --> 00:44:25.280 community. 00:44:25.590 --> 00:44:27.800 Well, how's that different from this, this and this and this? 00:44:27.950 --> 00:44:31.340 If it's something I think I remember you saying something can a. 00:44:32.255 --> 00:44:36.065 Uh, it clicking for me what you're trying to do with regards to like, you 00:44:36.065 --> 00:44:39.965 know, memberships with newsletter pay, paid newsletters, I think which okay. 00:44:39.965 --> 00:44:43.085 Is there is a segment everybody knows already, but when you say, oh yeah, okay. 00:44:43.085 --> 00:44:46.595 It's that plus because as a community, whether it, okay, I get it now and 00:44:46.595 --> 00:44:51.065 it's almost like I need to find the same kind of hook is something 00:44:51.065 --> 00:44:52.475 that people go, oh, I get it. 00:44:52.505 --> 00:44:54.095 It's it's like, it's, it's this thing. 00:44:54.125 --> 00:44:54.365 Right. 00:44:54.635 --> 00:44:58.715 Um, and as you said, it got already understand that and already be 00:44:58.745 --> 00:45:01.115 either doing it or willing to do it. 00:45:01.145 --> 00:45:03.155 Not somebody who you've got to convince that. 00:45:03.365 --> 00:45:03.695 Cause that's 00:45:03.695 --> 00:45:03.815 not 00:45:03.883 --> 00:45:06.073 Justin: Yeah, I think they already have to be doing it. 00:45:06.133 --> 00:45:07.783 They already have to be doing something about it. 00:45:07.813 --> 00:45:08.923 That's the challenge. 00:45:09.673 --> 00:45:12.163 Like what, what I thought. 00:45:12.163 --> 00:45:12.553 Okay. 00:45:13.153 --> 00:45:17.863 Like online community building is like super hyped right now, especially during 00:45:17.893 --> 00:45:22.793 COVID like circle had raised all this money and just seemed like every, and I 00:45:22.793 --> 00:45:28.093 had personally experienced the power of community with Mega Maker and then with 00:45:28.093 --> 00:45:32.563 this coworking place that we started, and then this meetup that I run locally 00:45:33.146 --> 00:45:34.586 and I thought, well, this is perfect. 00:45:34.586 --> 00:45:40.556 Like I have these three use cases and I'd paid for member fall forever. 00:45:40.586 --> 00:45:40.856 Right. 00:45:40.856 --> 00:45:42.146 I was one of their first users. 00:45:42.836 --> 00:45:46.376 So building an alternative to that felt like, okay, this will work. 00:45:47.036 --> 00:45:51.146 But what we're learning is the dynamics in that particular space is that there's 00:45:51.146 --> 00:45:52.586 just not that many people like me. 00:45:54.818 --> 00:45:58.838 Alan: I mean, I joined a couple of circle, um, groups, um, 00:46:00.033 --> 00:46:01.383 It then not sticky. 00:46:01.473 --> 00:46:05.403 I mean, as in the slack is open all day, it's there. 00:46:05.403 --> 00:46:06.543 It's okay. 00:46:06.543 --> 00:46:07.883 I mean, you know, I don't know. 00:46:07.923 --> 00:46:09.033 It's about 15 slacks. 00:46:09.243 --> 00:46:11.733 I'll see a dot and if I've got time, I'll go and read it. 00:46:11.733 --> 00:46:15.173 Especially if it's one of the channels, which I'm interested in one of the I'm 00:46:15.173 --> 00:46:19.143 interested, where Circle it's, it's this idea of like, there's a thing over that 00:46:19.143 --> 00:46:23.253 and you got to log in and there's, there's different accounts and it's just, you just 00:46:23.253 --> 00:46:26.823 never do it and you'll get the email and you go, okay, you're ready to close it. 00:46:26.823 --> 00:46:31.113 I mean, at the, at that, that difference between the, a community that feels alive 00:46:31.143 --> 00:46:32.943 and one that feels like people check in on 00:46:32.943 --> 00:46:33.993 once a week, it's 00:46:34.131 --> 00:46:34.701 Justin: Yeah. 00:46:35.301 --> 00:46:39.711 Well, I mean, that was our other thought was let's not build another circle. 00:46:39.981 --> 00:46:43.251 Let's just make it easy for people to get people, to register and pay 00:46:43.251 --> 00:46:46.341 for slack telegram discord groups. 00:46:46.443 --> 00:46:46.683 Alan: right? 00:46:47.876 --> 00:46:49.976 Justin: And maybe that's what we need to get back to. 00:46:50.156 --> 00:46:57.287 But again, there's just the number of people on earth that, are like me 00:46:57.306 --> 00:46:59.076 that are doing that kind of thing. 00:46:59.526 --> 00:47:03.786 It's just smaller than the number of people who want to start a podcast, but 00:47:03.816 --> 00:47:10.056 starting a podcast, the threshold to cross is just less because all you really 00:47:10.056 --> 00:47:10.356 need to 00:47:10.356 --> 00:47:15.216 do to feel successful is to record an episode, upload it and publish it. 00:47:15.216 --> 00:47:16.956 And then you kind of feel like you're a success 00:47:17.008 --> 00:47:17.248 Alan: Yeah. 00:47:18.352 --> 00:47:18.742 Mario: Yeah. 00:47:18.748 --> 00:47:20.308 Alan: if you've gone and got not many listeners, right. 00:47:20.488 --> 00:47:20.578 It's 00:47:20.578 --> 00:47:20.758 still 00:47:20.856 --> 00:47:21.486 Justin: yeah, totally. 00:47:21.486 --> 00:47:21.636 I 00:47:21.636 --> 00:47:27.036 mean, this is the MailChimp ConvertKit advantage too is just really, I mean, 00:47:27.396 --> 00:47:32.586 if you put out a form and your mom's subscribes and you put out one newsletter, 00:47:32.586 --> 00:47:37.146 you already kind of feel like you're in the game, but the, the threshold for. 00:47:38.046 --> 00:47:41.226 Building the kind of momentum it would take to, to start a 00:47:41.226 --> 00:47:46.206 community is just, or even a local meetup group is 00:47:46.206 --> 00:47:47.609 just it's a higher 00:47:47.656 --> 00:47:49.306 Alan: I mean, I I've seen the same thing here. 00:47:49.306 --> 00:47:53.206 You know, we started like, uh, a local how can use group and there's, 00:47:53.536 --> 00:47:57.286 there was a peak when it was like, everybody's going, this is the thing. 00:47:57.556 --> 00:47:59.476 And it can so quickly just disappear. 00:47:59.506 --> 00:48:02.176 It's just something that there's like a time and a place for it. 00:48:02.206 --> 00:48:02.896 And then it worked 00:48:03.256 --> 00:48:04.876 and it's really difficult to keep that going. 00:48:04.876 --> 00:48:08.446 It's just so easy for it to just fall apart and just disappear overnight. 00:48:08.776 --> 00:48:11.386 And it's like a very fine balance. 00:48:11.416 --> 00:48:14.476 And I think the same thing applies to online communities as well. 00:48:14.476 --> 00:48:18.346 Um, but probably even harder because there's not a time and a date 00:48:18.346 --> 00:48:20.386 where, you know, everybody goes and 00:48:20.656 --> 00:48:21.046 that's it. 00:48:22.066 --> 00:48:22.246 So. 00:48:22.439 --> 00:48:25.399 Justin: But we know that there might be adjacent, for example, 00:48:25.399 --> 00:48:29.696 there is, the market for. 00:48:29.696 --> 00:48:37.358 Online membership directory software is a thing it's much more corporate, much 00:48:37.388 --> 00:48:40.238 more, um, a lot of non-profits as 00:48:40.238 --> 00:48:40.748 well. 00:48:41.348 --> 00:48:42.548 And we could go after 00:48:42.548 --> 00:48:43.568 that if we wanted to. 00:48:44.198 --> 00:48:44.528 And, 00:48:44.888 --> 00:48:45.218 but, 00:48:45.691 --> 00:48:49.231 Alan: you mentioned that I was always wondered how does cause transistor 00:48:49.231 --> 00:48:51.481 supports private podcasts as well. 00:48:51.481 --> 00:48:51.751 Right. 00:48:51.961 --> 00:48:52.771 You know, how do you 00:48:52.771 --> 00:48:57.421 find like companies using that for internal stuff quite often? 00:48:57.451 --> 00:48:58.771 Or is it still quite niche? 00:48:58.831 --> 00:49:00.391 Is it, is it quite a strong part of your 00:49:00.961 --> 00:49:01.561 customer base? 00:49:01.708 --> 00:49:04.378 Justin: I mean, there's quite a few, there's a lot of interest in it. 00:49:04.798 --> 00:49:09.448 Um, and we have, I mean, there's a fair number of people who do it. 00:49:10.498 --> 00:49:12.688 It's a lot in practice. 00:49:12.688 --> 00:49:16.078 It's a lot more challenging than I think people think it's like 00:49:17.308 --> 00:49:21.798 to do it well to do it in a way that actually gets engaged. 00:49:22.763 --> 00:49:26.423 Uh, to do it once the champion has left the organization. 00:49:27.113 --> 00:49:32.742 Um, and even like apple, so Apple's paid private podcasting feature. 00:49:33.312 --> 00:49:37.632 I have to check the numbers on this, but as far as I know, they're pretty abysmal. 00:49:38.282 --> 00:49:43.022 I still think there's opportunity in it, like linking up payments to pay a private 00:49:43.022 --> 00:49:44.732 podcast is something we'd like to do, 00:49:46.262 --> 00:49:50.222 but it's still not like the rushing water of people wanting a podcast 00:49:50.222 --> 00:49:52.082 that's in Spotify and apple podcasts. 00:49:52.082 --> 00:49:57.422 Like that is just a big, fast moving river and private podcasts. 00:49:57.512 --> 00:49:59.312 there's significant momentum there. 00:49:59.724 --> 00:50:00.414 but, you know, if 00:50:00.414 --> 00:50:05.002 I was to quantify it, I would say at most it's 20% of our business, 00:50:05.002 --> 00:50:05.932 but that's probably 00:50:06.082 --> 00:50:07.012 Even that's high. 00:50:07.125 --> 00:50:07.635 Alan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:50:07.635 --> 00:50:07.815 Yeah. 00:50:08.025 --> 00:50:09.345 I mean, maybe there's the 00:50:09.345 --> 00:50:09.795 whole 00:50:10.005 --> 00:50:12.315 merger of Meeps and transistor there. 00:50:12.315 --> 00:50:15.285 The fact that, you know, I mean, when you, especially when you see podcasts, like, 00:50:15.285 --> 00:50:20.715 you know, atp.fm that have this huge, very active member base, that are listener 00:50:20.715 --> 00:50:26.448 base that, uh, just as invested in, you know, the back channel as they, I mean, 00:50:26.448 --> 00:50:28.248 there's the, there's the bulk listeners. 00:50:28.278 --> 00:50:31.548 And then this is a really active, um, you know, back channel as well, you 00:50:31.548 --> 00:50:32.808 know, merchandise and things like that. 00:50:32.808 --> 00:50:35.328 And it's, it's really interesting to see how that can, 00:50:35.748 --> 00:50:36.438 um, 00:50:36.708 --> 00:50:37.368 happen as well. 00:50:37.368 --> 00:50:37.548 Right. 00:50:37.831 --> 00:50:43.261 Justin: The hard thing is, and maybe I'm forming a, a framework right 00:50:43.261 --> 00:50:48.271 now as we talk, but the hard thing is you can't optimize a product 00:50:48.301 --> 00:50:51.361 for the top 1% of that audience. 00:50:52.051 --> 00:50:59.191 And so ATP is like an outlier, but, but it's so tempting to want to do that. 00:51:00.241 --> 00:51:02.801 And especially in the pro-sumer space. 00:51:03.171 --> 00:51:04.021 So like. 00:51:04.581 --> 00:51:07.976 You know, Fusioncast is in this, Transistor is in this, ConvertKit in 00:51:07.976 --> 00:51:13.406 this Blogstatic is in this, you know, a lot of the Mega Maker type products 00:51:13.406 --> 00:51:15.686 are in that category of prosumer. 00:51:16.188 --> 00:51:16.448 Alan: Hmm. 00:51:16.766 --> 00:51:20.786 Justin: So much of your customer base is just getting 00:51:20.786 --> 00:51:21.506 started 00:51:22.316 --> 00:51:25.256 and they're going to be able to do steps one through 00:51:25.256 --> 00:51:29.066 three, and some of them will progress 00:51:29.126 --> 00:51:30.516 into the 99th percentile 00:51:30.546 --> 00:51:32.126 Alan: Very few of them will, right? 00:51:32.716 --> 00:51:34.076 Justin: But very few will. 00:51:34.196 --> 00:51:37.826 And this is like what we're seeing with, you know, 00:51:38.126 --> 00:51:42.326 for years, people have been asking us for dynamic audio insertion and say, like 00:51:42.326 --> 00:51:45.086 switching away from us to competitors 00:51:45.086 --> 00:51:45.566 even. 00:51:46.376 --> 00:51:51.536 But we saw some trends just by waiting that, you know, people would switch to 00:51:51.536 --> 00:51:54.416 mega, to megaphone to get, we have to have 00:51:54.416 --> 00:51:57.896 dynamic ad insertion, and then six months later 00:51:57.896 --> 00:51:59.156 they'd come back to transistor going, 00:51:59.156 --> 00:52:01.016 wow, we just didn't use it that much. 00:52:01.033 --> 00:52:01.303 Alan: Yeah. 00:52:01.483 --> 00:52:03.853 Hey Mario, are we going to start selling mattresses? 00:52:03.853 --> 00:52:04.243 What'd he say? 00:52:07.327 --> 00:52:07.507 Mario: Yeah. 00:52:07.987 --> 00:52:08.977 I'm trying to think here. 00:52:08.977 --> 00:52:10.057 What, What plan B, 00:52:10.057 --> 00:52:10.117 Alan: Um, 00:52:10.117 --> 00:52:10.477 Mario: is going to 00:52:10.477 --> 00:52:10.717 be? 00:52:11.036 --> 00:52:12.896 Justin: it's, it's super cool. 00:52:12.906 --> 00:52:14.446 I, I, I, 00:52:14.456 --> 00:52:15.866 think it's a great feature, but 00:52:16.086 --> 00:52:23.046 it's for a smaller percentage of users and in our space, I mean, if you look 00:52:23.046 --> 00:52:29.136 at ConvertKits, open MRR graph, and you look at, you know, how much new 00:52:29.136 --> 00:52:32.046 MRR they're bringing in every month and how much churn they're getting. 00:52:32.676 --> 00:52:37.926 It's a substantial amount of turn and it works for them because 00:52:38.046 --> 00:52:40.896 they just have thousands of people lining up to their coffee shop 00:52:40.896 --> 00:52:42.246 every day that want to sign up. 00:52:42.786 --> 00:52:44.286 But they're dependent on that. 00:52:44.346 --> 00:52:48.999 And Transistor's similar, tailwind UI is similar. 00:52:49.479 --> 00:52:53.199 You just have all of these kinds of pro-sumer apps where you 00:52:53.199 --> 00:52:55.089 really need a volume of people. 00:52:56.199 --> 00:52:57.759 Creating accounts every day. 00:52:58.479 --> 00:53:04.719 Um, and you're going to get a substantial, not, I mean, it's obviously your growth is 00:53:04.719 --> 00:53:11.109 higher than your turn, but comparatively churn is higher in those kinds of products 00:53:11.109 --> 00:53:11.529 than 00:53:11.529 --> 00:53:12.009 not. 00:53:12.016 --> 00:53:12.286 Alan: Yeah. 00:53:12.406 --> 00:53:17.026 I mean, any product that requires you to spend time and effort. 00:53:17.026 --> 00:53:20.036 I mean, this is the fascinating thing about both, you know, Fusioncast 00:53:20.056 --> 00:53:23.776 and Transistor, and the things like this is it, isn't a passive thing. 00:53:23.806 --> 00:53:28.246 You actually have to make a serious effort to make something happen. 00:53:28.246 --> 00:53:28.486 Right. 00:53:28.786 --> 00:53:32.746 And the, the, the result of that is, yeah, I've got five people 00:53:32.746 --> 00:53:34.636 listening to me waffle on for an hour. 00:53:34.883 --> 00:53:36.213 there isn't an immediate payback. 00:53:36.213 --> 00:53:39.873 There is a, there's an internal like, feel good thing, but it's um, 00:53:40.083 --> 00:53:43.773 so as you said, you know, the market for those people, even creating a 00:53:43.773 --> 00:53:45.693 newsletter, it doesn't happen by itself. 00:53:45.723 --> 00:53:45.903 Right. 00:53:45.903 --> 00:53:50.643 It takes effort and long term thinking to make something happen. 00:53:50.643 --> 00:53:53.493 And it's, it's, it's a huge barrier to entry for most people. 00:53:53.493 --> 00:53:53.703 Right. 00:53:53.703 --> 00:53:56.103 Because they just don't have that kind of, um, 00:53:57.586 --> 00:53:58.276 Justin: totally. 00:53:58.366 --> 00:54:01.156 I mean, if, if I could have built forge, I would have 00:54:02.836 --> 00:54:04.276 like, that's the perfect business. 00:54:04.276 --> 00:54:08.266 It's like, it has an incredible amount of utility, like provision my servers 00:54:08.266 --> 00:54:12.856 for me, but once I set it up, it just like every time I commit to get it, 00:54:13.426 --> 00:54:15.016 you know, I don't need to log in for 00:54:15.232 --> 00:54:15.682 Mario: Yeah. 00:54:15.742 --> 00:54:16.132 Yeah. 00:54:16.891 --> 00:54:21.351 it's just provides a lot of, benefit, a lot of value without you having 00:54:21.351 --> 00:54:22.971 to commit a lot of time to use it. 00:54:22.971 --> 00:54:26.211 Cause you just, it's just running in the background and whenever you need it, you 00:54:26.211 --> 00:54:28.011 just log in and do what you need to do. 00:54:28.011 --> 00:54:28.701 And that's it. 00:54:28.941 --> 00:54:29.211 I be 00:54:29.221 --> 00:54:30.741 using it for years and it's 00:54:30.860 --> 00:54:33.040 Alan: those products that, that I see the thing on my 00:54:33.040 --> 00:54:35.030 credit card every month, and I think haven't looked into 00:54:35.100 --> 00:54:36.970 six months, but I can't get rid of it because I need it 00:54:37.960 --> 00:54:38.800 That was a great product. 00:54:39.010 --> 00:54:42.460 It's like, I just pay it because I have to that's it. 00:54:43.409 --> 00:54:43.979 Justin: Yeah. 00:54:44.039 --> 00:54:45.689 I mean, those are great products. 00:54:45.719 --> 00:54:49.679 And especially once you become an SMB or a medium sized business or a large 00:54:49.679 --> 00:54:52.019 business, you just need those products. 00:54:52.019 --> 00:54:54.809 Like those are the oil, those are the grease that grease the 00:54:54.809 --> 00:54:56.849 wheels of your, of your company. 00:54:57.329 --> 00:55:03.209 And so, you know, it's a little bit of a harder ask for the marketing person to go 00:55:03.209 --> 00:55:07.739 to the CEO and say, can we start a podcast than it is for a developer to go to the 00:55:07.739 --> 00:55:10.169 CEO and say, I need the software to save 00:55:10.169 --> 00:55:11.249 me hours 00:55:11.429 --> 00:55:12.869 of time provisioning servers. 00:55:13.349 --> 00:55:14.159 And it's like that's 00:55:14.159 --> 00:55:15.179 a no brainer, you 00:55:15.375 --> 00:55:16.905 Alan: Which again comes back to light dot plan. 00:55:16.905 --> 00:55:18.825 That's like asking everybody in the company to do a 00:55:18.825 --> 00:55:21.825 thing is like, oh God, it's like, a really hard 00:55:21.825 --> 00:55:22.365 ask. 00:55:22.969 --> 00:55:23.439 Justin: Yeah. 00:55:23.459 --> 00:55:23.819 That, 00:55:24.056 --> 00:55:24.476 Mario: yeah. 00:55:25.065 --> 00:55:25.935 Alan: I think is why you're right. 00:55:25.935 --> 00:55:28.385 Like looking for people who already are doing this or something. 00:55:28.809 --> 00:55:29.259 Justin: yeah. 00:55:29.259 --> 00:55:33.189 You want to see who's in motion and then how hard it is to get those people 00:55:33.189 --> 00:55:35.055 like, that was the other kind of. 00:55:35.356 --> 00:55:38.446 light bulb I had, when I was working for a project management software 00:55:38.446 --> 00:55:42.736 company, I'm doing all this marketing and to learn I'm doing all these phone 00:55:42.736 --> 00:55:46.966 calls, customer development, phone calls, and it's like, people are like, 00:55:47.270 --> 00:55:50.420 you know, I demo the software and then they're like, okay, well, this is great. 00:55:50.420 --> 00:55:52.730 I got to talk to my dev manager. 00:55:52.730 --> 00:55:56.060 And then I got to talk to the CTO and then I got, I'm like, 00:55:56.810 --> 00:55:57.140 we're, 00:55:58.460 --> 00:55:59.870 we're, not gonna, this isn't gonna work. 00:55:59.870 --> 00:56:03.620 And then meanwhile, you know, I recorded a podcast with Nathan Barry 00:56:03.620 --> 00:56:06.860 and he's like, yeah, people just keep signing up for ConvertKit. 00:56:07.100 --> 00:56:10.910 And it was like, oh yeah, like you just have to convince the person 00:56:10.910 --> 00:56:14.990 with the credit card who just, you know, it's like a blogger who's at 00:56:14.990 --> 00:56:17.060 home and wants to reach more people. 00:56:17.360 --> 00:56:19.370 And they just have their credit card at most. 00:56:19.580 --> 00:56:21.950 The only person they have to talk to is their spouse. 00:56:21.980 --> 00:56:22.370 Right. 00:56:22.812 --> 00:56:23.202 Mario: Right. 00:56:23.660 --> 00:56:27.380 Justin: Um, and there's pros and cons to both of these, but, the 00:56:27.583 --> 00:56:29.083 certainly at a certain price point. 00:56:29.670 --> 00:56:33.270 If you want people to just, finding you on the internet and signing up, for 00:56:33.270 --> 00:56:39.720 19 29, $49 a month, you want a certain amount of just volume that comes to 00:56:39.720 --> 00:56:41.580 you and just does it automatically. 00:56:42.030 --> 00:56:42.480 And 00:56:42.510 --> 00:56:43.320 if they need to talk 00:56:43.320 --> 00:56:46.643 to even, you know, more than one other person then, 00:56:46.820 --> 00:56:47.300 uh, 00:56:47.530 --> 00:56:47.830 Alan: It's a 00:56:47.830 --> 00:56:50.110 significantly big ask, right. 00:56:50.470 --> 00:56:51.130 As much as much from 00:56:51.130 --> 00:56:51.190 a 00:56:51.230 --> 00:56:54.620 Justin: well, and you realize it even like now that I have a 00:56:54.620 --> 00:56:57.860 partner, like Jon does not like paying for a bunch of stuff. 00:56:57.920 --> 00:57:02.420 And so I have to be very selective, you know, I'm using some 00:57:02.420 --> 00:57:08.420 of my social capital every time I have to say, Hey, can we pay for H refs? 00:57:08.870 --> 00:57:10.250 And he's like, well, what's that? 00:57:10.250 --> 00:57:12.410 I'm like, well, he's like, how much is 00:57:12.410 --> 00:57:12.530 it? 00:57:12.530 --> 00:57:16.760 And I'm like, whatever it is 150 bucks a month, 150 bucks a month, 00:57:16.790 --> 00:57:17.060 you know? 00:57:17.060 --> 00:57:17.330 Like, 00:57:17.450 --> 00:57:18.110 Alan: just do this right. 00:57:19.220 --> 00:57:21.560 Justin: he's like, well, can't you just do it another way. 00:57:22.040 --> 00:57:22.220 And. 00:57:23.180 --> 00:57:25.250 You know, it costs me something every time 00:57:25.250 --> 00:57:26.750 I want to bring a new tool on. 00:57:26.765 --> 00:57:30.125 Alan: mean, I guess, I guess this explains that the whole, as you said, prosumer 00:57:30.125 --> 00:57:32.255 market, is that people that a wanting to 00:57:32.255 --> 00:57:36.425 make their life better, um, through some form of entrepreneurship, even if that's 00:57:36.425 --> 00:57:40.865 just starting a, you know, a mailing list, um, and are willing to commit it, 00:57:40.865 --> 00:57:44.945 something to do that, not just like, you know, well, I'm bored one Thursday 00:57:44.945 --> 00:57:48.265 afternoon or Thursday evening, and I did the thing and I forget about it. 00:57:48.275 --> 00:57:49.805 No, it's, you're, you're willing to make an 00:57:49.805 --> 00:57:50.045 effort. 00:57:50.045 --> 00:57:50.195 Right. 00:57:50.195 --> 00:57:52.562 So that, by making that effort, they're willing to pay 00:57:52.562 --> 00:57:53.312 something for that. 00:57:53.372 --> 00:57:53.672 So 00:57:53.816 --> 00:57:54.356 Justin: Yeah. 00:57:54.536 --> 00:58:00.296 I think it's underrated because people love having a project, like a project 00:58:00.446 --> 00:58:06.036 it's you know, um, My wife's taking, uh, a yoga instructors course right now. 00:58:06.066 --> 00:58:09.876 It's just like a fun project for her to go and do it. 00:58:10.386 --> 00:58:13.386 And you know, some people start gardening really seriously, 00:58:13.386 --> 00:58:14.916 and that's like their project. 00:58:15.276 --> 00:58:18.936 I have a garden, but I don't take it seriously, but somebody who takes 00:58:18.936 --> 00:58:23.796 it seriously, they'll spend a lot of money and time doing that thing. 00:58:24.366 --> 00:58:29.346 And there's levels of this, which go from, this is just a hobby I take 00:58:29.346 --> 00:58:31.206 seriously, and I have the money to spend. 00:58:31.450 --> 00:58:35.830 But up to like, this is aspirationally something I want to be either a 00:58:35.830 --> 00:58:41.740 side business or, a little side hustle or a professional activity. 00:58:41.740 --> 00:58:47.110 I do like maybe blogging or podcasting that will benefit my career. 00:58:47.110 --> 00:58:51.120 But won't immediately give me money to like, I hope this 00:58:51.120 --> 00:58:52.500 makes me a full-time living. 00:58:52.500 --> 00:58:54.210 Like there's a whole threshold there. 00:58:54.210 --> 00:58:58.073 A prosumer type products and I think 00:58:58.073 --> 00:58:59.273 in the bootstrapping space. 00:58:59.273 --> 00:59:01.913 It's kind of under, It's massively underrated. 00:59:02.033 --> 00:59:02.933 It's like people 00:59:02.933 --> 00:59:04.343 don't talk about it enough. 00:59:04.643 --> 00:59:10.463 We talk about B2B as if it's like this like model it's like, so B2B is everything 00:59:10.463 --> 00:59:17.630 from the person who's, selling a little course on the side all the way up to IBM. 00:59:17.630 --> 00:59:18.860 Like that's B2B. 00:59:19.580 --> 00:59:19.970 Yeah. 00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:20.900 It's just, I don't 00:59:20.900 --> 00:59:21.770 know that it, 00:59:22.730 --> 00:59:23.240 and, and, 00:59:23.240 --> 00:59:23.810 like B to 00:59:23.810 --> 00:59:24.920 SMB, like what is 00:59:24.920 --> 00:59:25.220 that? 00:59:25.500 --> 00:59:27.840 Alan: I mean, this is kind of like goal of like, you know, I'm selling 00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:28.350 B2B. 00:59:28.350 --> 00:59:29.310 That was where the big money 00:59:29.310 --> 00:59:29.580 is. 00:59:29.580 --> 00:59:30.720 And the pains 00:59:30.720 --> 00:59:31.800 that come with that is crazy. 00:59:31.800 --> 00:59:32.040 Right. 00:59:32.160 --> 00:59:35.760 Or there's, there's, shiny consumer level stuff, which is fun to play with 00:59:35.760 --> 00:59:40.350 it from a UI side, but you've got to get massive scale and just to have any 00:59:40.350 --> 00:59:42.240 form of revenue from it whatsoever, but 00:59:42.420 --> 00:59:44.330 yeah, this kind of, prosumer market. 00:59:44.330 --> 00:59:44.480 Yeah. 00:59:44.503 --> 00:59:44.983 that's 00:59:45.928 --> 00:59:49.348 Justin: And also to realize like the way we, the way we cut up these 00:59:49.348 --> 00:59:52.258 categories just requires way more nuance. 00:59:52.288 --> 00:59:56.338 Like it's not, it's not enough to just say, well, like every indie 00:59:56.338 --> 01:00:01.738 hacker needs to go after B2B don't ever go to B to C and it's, and it's 01:00:01.738 --> 01:00:03.988 like, well, we there's a spectrum of 01:00:03.988 --> 01:00:05.098 opportunities. 01:00:05.518 --> 01:00:06.328 And the other thing is 01:00:06.329 --> 01:00:06.899 Mario: levels. 01:00:07.348 --> 01:00:07.558 Justin: all 01:00:07.558 --> 01:00:11.188 the different levels and the shape of those markets and the 01:00:11.188 --> 01:00:14.938 dynamics within those markets is what you should really be looking at. 01:00:14.938 --> 01:00:20.368 Don't look for these broad generalizations, look for the specifics, 01:00:20.728 --> 01:00:22.888 the specific shape of that market. 01:00:23.248 --> 01:00:25.258 And if it's a good wave, you should go ride it. 01:00:26.038 --> 01:00:28.138 But don't just like discount things because. 01:00:28.683 --> 01:00:34.293 There B to C or, or look like B to C, uh, in the same way that you 01:00:34.293 --> 01:00:36.603 shouldn't feel like you've got a nice check mark, just because you're 01:00:36.603 --> 01:00:42.093 in B2B, B2B is a spectrum and you know, there's lots of bad 01:00:42.093 --> 01:00:43.443 B2B opportunities. 01:00:43.733 --> 01:00:46.033 Alan: Again, like the the difference for me selling to, you 01:00:46.033 --> 01:00:47.233 know, a, like a local 01:00:47.233 --> 01:00:51.013 eight person company here is like, even that has a significant amount 01:00:51.013 --> 01:00:56.233 of back and forth and pain versus, um, you know, selling any form of 01:00:56.233 --> 01:00:59.713 enterprise sales, which is like, well, I've got six months to a year and 01:00:59.713 --> 01:01:01.423 I've got to pass all these ISO things. 01:01:01.423 --> 01:01:02.893 And it's like, it's never going to happen. 01:01:02.893 --> 01:01:03.073 Right. 01:01:03.283 --> 01:01:04.603 That both a B2B, right. 01:01:05.083 --> 01:01:05.473 There's one 01:01:05.473 --> 01:01:09.943 type of a business that is acceptable as others, which are just off the table 01:01:09.943 --> 01:01:10.903 completely I'd have no 01:01:11.033 --> 01:01:12.413 Justin: Well, and I'm in, 01:01:12.413 --> 01:01:19.104 I would love to know for Taylor and forge, how many of those users are hobby users. 01:01:19.759 --> 01:01:22.759 Developers using it on their own servers at home. 01:01:23.239 --> 01:01:25.999 And they're just doing it because it makes their lives better. 01:01:26.689 --> 01:01:28.249 It makes them better developers. 01:01:28.969 --> 01:01:30.169 They want to support Taylor. 01:01:30.199 --> 01:01:34.789 Like there's all these other jobs and how much of his revenue comes from actual 01:01:34.789 --> 01:01:38.179 businesses like Titan who need it to 01:01:38.389 --> 01:01:41.239 perform, you know, I'm sure there's lots, 01:01:41.239 --> 01:01:42.199 but what's the 01:01:42.199 --> 01:01:42.859 breakdown 01:01:43.601 --> 01:01:43.991 Mario: Yeah. 01:01:44.081 --> 01:01:44.411 Yeah. 01:01:44.435 --> 01:01:44.645 Alan: but the 01:01:44.645 --> 01:01:48.365 interesting thing is those, those, those people who are maybe hobbyist 01:01:48.365 --> 01:01:50.585 right now probably have other jobs, 01:01:50.795 --> 01:01:52.145 they will go on to, they have 01:01:52.145 --> 01:01:52.565 a career. 01:01:52.565 --> 01:01:52.775 Right. 01:01:52.775 --> 01:01:54.725 So they will definitely take that good experiences 01:01:54.725 --> 01:01:55.475 with them though, as well. 01:01:55.475 --> 01:01:55.685 Right. 01:01:56.301 --> 01:01:56.751 Mario: yeah, 01:01:57.809 --> 01:01:58.799 Justin: And that's the dynamic. 01:01:59.541 --> 01:02:00.651 Mario: Yeah, it's a spectrum. 01:02:00.651 --> 01:02:05.801 for example, I've been using forge for years and, it's a hobby, I guess, in, 01:02:05.801 --> 01:02:09.995 in some ways, As I've been working on all these side projects and I've been 01:02:09.995 --> 01:02:14.375 running servers maintained through forge, Fusioncast is one of them. 01:02:14.435 --> 01:02:19.415 And, uh, you know, I haven't made any significant revenue or no revenue at all 01:02:19.415 --> 01:02:21.935 from, from any of this, but I've been a 01:02:21.935 --> 01:02:23.525 customer for years, you know? 01:02:23.735 --> 01:02:25.025 So, So, 01:02:25.025 --> 01:02:26.315 yeah, that's an interesting question. 01:02:26.315 --> 01:02:29.765 Like how, how, what, what are the levels that there's 01:02:30.173 --> 01:02:32.243 Justin: And, and, and how do you quantify all of that? 01:02:32.243 --> 01:02:37.913 So if, if Mario, all of a sudden launches, Fusioncast, and then Spotify comes and 01:02:37.913 --> 01:02:42.803 buys it for a billion dollars, how would we quantify that investment in Forge when 01:02:42.953 --> 01:02:47.859 you weren't making any money for years, but then it became a significant part 01:02:47.889 --> 01:02:49.779 of your journey that led to that thing. 01:02:50.109 --> 01:02:50.619 You know what I mean? 01:02:50.979 --> 01:02:55.869 This is why I think we got the, especially the bootstrap community. 01:02:55.869 --> 01:02:59.349 We need way more nuance when we discuss these things. 01:02:59.379 --> 01:03:02.049 It actually does matter. 01:03:03.039 --> 01:03:08.709 The way we talk about things, the way we describe things, the way we justify 01:03:08.709 --> 01:03:14.919 things, even in our own mind, these things matter because, um, if you're 01:03:14.919 --> 01:03:20.049 just going to follow broad cliches, then you know, you're, you're missing 01:03:20.049 --> 01:03:25.089 all of the actual stuff that real life has made out of, which is sure. 01:03:25.229 --> 01:03:31.529 at one point I signed up for Memberful and I was not making any profit, but at 01:03:31.529 --> 01:03:36.539 some point I crossed the threshold with Mega Maker where Mega Maker was making, 01:03:36.749 --> 01:03:38.939 I dunno, $25,000 a year or something. 01:03:39.329 --> 01:03:42.809 And now I think it averages something like 30, $40,000 a year. 01:03:43.139 --> 01:03:43.589 So 01:03:44.149 --> 01:03:48.499 previously was I just like a consumer that Memberful shouldn't care about or. 01:03:49.029 --> 01:03:51.369 Did those years or months I was using 01:03:51.369 --> 01:03:54.729 it and not really, you know, just as a hobbyist actually 01:03:54.729 --> 01:03:56.799 lead to something significant. 01:03:57.119 --> 01:03:58.199 and I think there's a lot of stuff like 01:03:58.250 --> 01:04:01.190 Alan: But again, those people that actually started on that path and 01:04:01.190 --> 01:04:02.930 made the effort to join Memberful and 01:04:02.930 --> 01:04:03.920 invested time in it. 01:04:04.670 --> 01:04:07.550 Oh, likely even if not that one didn't 01:04:07.550 --> 01:04:09.980 work, they're likely to have a path to success 01:04:09.980 --> 01:04:11.750 more likely than someone who just didn't even try it. 01:04:11.750 --> 01:04:11.900 Right. 01:04:12.099 --> 01:04:14.649 Justin: yeah, exactly, exactly. 01:04:14.829 --> 01:04:19.239 And at the end of the day, like the real thing, the only real thing that matters 01:04:19.509 --> 01:04:20.499 is volume. 01:04:20.609 --> 01:04:25.573 this is a volume business and you need this constant flow of 01:04:25.573 --> 01:04:27.823 interest, demand and customers. 01:04:28.083 --> 01:04:34.193 And so whatever you can build that you like building that attracts a customer 01:04:34.193 --> 01:04:37.733 that you like serving as long as there's enough of those customers coming in the 01:04:37.733 --> 01:04:40.193 door every day, that's all that matters. 01:04:41.295 --> 01:04:41.595 Mario: Yeah. 01:04:42.105 --> 01:04:43.095 That's the wave, right? 01:04:43.095 --> 01:04:43.995 The wave in 01:04:43.995 --> 01:04:44.865 your analogy. 01:04:45.453 --> 01:04:46.083 Justin: Yeah. 01:04:46.275 --> 01:04:47.715 Mario: I love that analogy by the way. 01:04:48.645 --> 01:04:49.775 it's perfect. 01:04:49.775 --> 01:04:54.545 It's so spot on, uh, mark market is like surfing and, uh, 01:04:54.545 --> 01:04:56.405 that constant flow it's 01:04:56.405 --> 01:04:57.445 those waves that you 01:04:57.445 --> 01:05:00.475 you've gotta have a good enough wave to be able to do it. 01:05:01.733 --> 01:05:02.003 Justin: yeah. 01:05:02.003 --> 01:05:02.123 And, 01:05:02.123 --> 01:05:02.603 encouraging. 01:05:02.603 --> 01:05:04.793 people to that was the other thing about 01:05:04.793 --> 01:05:07.006 looking at Adam and Taylor is 01:05:07.006 --> 01:05:11.026 just getting to see someone riding a bigger wave, inspired 01:05:11.026 --> 01:05:13.626 me to want to ride bigger waves. 01:05:13.986 --> 01:05:16.896 It was like, you know, why am I wasting time trying to make this 01:05:16.896 --> 01:05:20.616 happen when I could have something that maybe isn't that, but is at 01:05:20.616 --> 01:05:23.856 least something like that, you know? 01:05:24.366 --> 01:05:26.526 Uh, and there's certain. 01:05:27.306 --> 01:05:28.656 Again, it's not easy. 01:05:28.656 --> 01:05:31.116 If it was easy, then I would be a billionaire, 01:05:32.001 --> 01:05:32.181 Alan: Yeah. 01:05:33.006 --> 01:05:33.516 Justin: but 01:05:33.678 --> 01:05:33.856 Mario: about 01:05:33.856 --> 01:05:33.946 Justin: it, 01:05:33.946 --> 01:05:34.776 Mario: this is easy. 01:05:35.336 --> 01:05:35.746 Justin: but 01:05:35.766 --> 01:05:38.286 I do think there's ways we can 01:05:38.286 --> 01:05:41.736 observe, like with Meeps, I'm observing. 01:05:41.736 --> 01:05:42.426 Are we there yet? 01:05:42.456 --> 01:05:46.236 No, we don't have that natural pull yet. 01:05:47.076 --> 01:05:49.596 And if we can't find it, we got to let it go. 01:05:49.989 --> 01:05:52.059 And that's what we're searching for. 01:05:52.059 --> 01:05:57.916 We're trying things that it's like, if we are just walking around in the woods and 01:05:57.916 --> 01:06:02.716 we trip over a, uh, slow moving stream, we gotta be willing to move on from the 01:06:02.716 --> 01:06:04.636 stream and look for the rushing river. 01:06:04.726 --> 01:06:09.136 Like that's another metaphor, like when you just want that flow of water 01:06:09.556 --> 01:06:14.146 and, getting to see it demonstrated for me, like seeing what that looks like. 01:06:14.998 --> 01:06:15.478 Mario: Yeah. 01:06:15.831 --> 01:06:16.971 Justin: Is the key. 01:06:16.971 --> 01:06:17.691 It's just like 01:06:18.141 --> 01:06:19.671 thousands of people, 01:06:20.054 --> 01:06:22.694 and let's just say for most indie SaaS apps, I think it's going to 01:06:22.694 --> 01:06:27.434 be, you're going to need hundreds of trials and thousands of trials. 01:06:27.434 --> 01:06:29.384 If you're not, if you don't have credit card upfront. 01:06:30.088 --> 01:06:32.128 And I think, you know, transistor probably gets, 01:06:32.464 --> 01:06:33.744 I don't know, we get hundreds 01:06:33.744 --> 01:06:35.454 of new trials every month and 01:06:35.544 --> 01:06:38.124 75% of those people who 01:06:38.124 --> 01:06:39.684 start a trial convert to a paid 01:06:39.925 --> 01:06:42.145 Alan: Right because you got credit card up front. 01:06:42.145 --> 01:06:44.575 So there's, there's a there's inertia 01:06:44.575 --> 01:06:45.235 that already, right? 01:06:45.984 --> 01:06:46.614 Justin: That's right. 01:06:46.764 --> 01:06:47.244 That's right? 01:06:47.274 --> 01:06:47.574 They, 01:06:47.596 --> 01:06:48.496 Mario: More serious about 01:06:48.675 --> 01:06:48.915 Alan: Yeah. 01:06:49.284 --> 01:06:52.134 Justin: they want it bad enough that they're willing to, 01:06:52.464 --> 01:06:55.884 you know, put a credit card in and, and, and there's just some products 01:06:55.884 --> 01:06:59.214 like this, like watch yourself and your friends sign up for things. 01:07:00.054 --> 01:07:02.694 You know, at one point I was like, I'm not going to pay for 01:07:02.694 --> 01:07:04.914 a Twitter thread writing tool. 01:07:05.734 --> 01:07:08.584 And then enough people in my life were doing it. 01:07:08.584 --> 01:07:11.584 And then I just found myself signing up for Typefully. 01:07:12.081 --> 01:07:15.858 And it was there's like a momentum there. 01:07:15.858 --> 01:07:18.018 That is interesting. 01:07:18.380 --> 01:07:22.660 And what's frustrating is it's like, it's not equivalent to the amount of time you 01:07:22.660 --> 01:07:29.027 put in or how complex the product is or, you know, the rules of, why people buy 01:07:29.027 --> 01:07:31.727 and why people buy quickly and easily. 01:07:32.353 --> 01:07:34.513 It's just kinda like, do they want it? 01:07:34.930 --> 01:07:35.320 Mario: Yeah. 01:07:35.320 --> 01:07:37.702 There's all different reasons that there's, the, the 01:07:37.702 --> 01:07:39.382 whole, uh, people like us do 01:07:39.382 --> 01:07:41.302 things like this , effect, right. 01:07:41.459 --> 01:07:42.579 To, consider in 01:07:42.579 --> 01:07:43.539 that as well. 01:07:43.685 --> 01:07:44.135 Justin: yeah, 01:07:44.369 --> 01:07:44.699 yeah. 01:07:44.785 --> 01:07:46.495 Alan: And I think that's what, you know, you, you, you mentioned, 01:07:46.495 --> 01:07:47.665 you know, just kind of like trying 01:07:47.665 --> 01:07:47.905 to 01:07:48.505 --> 01:07:52.405 catch the zeitgeists, you know, but basically, I mean, this is why I find 01:07:52.405 --> 01:07:54.715 Twitter, so fascinating addictive 01:07:55.855 --> 01:08:00.565 it's this real-time, you know, flow of the world of a, okay. 01:08:00.565 --> 01:08:02.095 Not everybody, but a good, 01:08:02.095 --> 01:08:06.145 significant chunk of, trends you can spot they're very early. 01:08:06.235 --> 01:08:06.655 Um, 01:08:06.824 --> 01:08:07.364 Justin: Yeah. 01:08:07.364 --> 01:08:08.324 And on podcasts too. 01:08:08.324 --> 01:08:09.044 Like, that's why I 01:08:09.044 --> 01:08:10.574 love listening to podcasts as people, 01:08:11.234 --> 01:08:14.924 you know, Taylor, just like kind of offhand saying, this is how we use base 01:08:14.924 --> 01:08:15.344 camp. 01:08:16.093 --> 01:08:16.873 what was the other thing? 01:08:16.873 --> 01:08:20.839 I, I hear people all the time, like, especially in these bootstrap 01:08:20.839 --> 01:08:23.299 podcasts people all the time will mention, oh, I just tried out 01:08:23.299 --> 01:08:26.149 this tool or I'm paying for this. 01:08:26.629 --> 01:08:31.849 Those are to me are so interesting to hear people explain why they 01:08:31.849 --> 01:08:33.349 just made a purchasing decision. 01:08:35.009 --> 01:08:40.025 And that's what we need to pay attention to is, what kinds of things 01:08:40.025 --> 01:08:42.635 create that movement? 01:08:42.695 --> 01:08:45.845 Like all of a sudden it's like everybody's 01:08:45.907 --> 01:08:47.197 buying The Mom Test. 01:08:47.227 --> 01:08:49.147 Like, why is that part of it is because 01:08:50.677 --> 01:08:51.217 yeah. 01:08:51.307 --> 01:08:52.267 And part of it is 01:08:52.267 --> 01:08:55.807 because it gets recommended and it gets recommended because it has a certain 01:08:55.807 --> 01:09:01.480 utility, but it also has a certain thing about it that makes it easy to buy, 01:09:01.510 --> 01:09:03.760 easy to read and then easy to recommend. 01:09:04.300 --> 01:09:08.507 And I think there are like Typefully has that thing. 01:09:08.507 --> 01:09:13.637 Like right now, reading Twitter threads is hot and the wave might not last 01:09:13.637 --> 01:09:18.857 forever, but you there's, there's people actively searching for how do 01:09:18.857 --> 01:09:23.747 I write better Twitter threads and, when there's that existing momentum, 01:09:23.747 --> 01:09:27.137 like people are Googling that already, then you can kind of tap into 01:09:27.137 --> 01:09:27.917 that, you know? 01:09:28.534 --> 01:09:29.944 Mario: Yeah, Yeah, For sure. 01:09:31.364 --> 01:09:32.734 Justin, we've been going for a while 01:09:32.734 --> 01:09:34.534 and, uh, want to be respectful of 01:09:34.534 --> 01:09:35.074 your time. 01:09:35.104 --> 01:09:35.734 Um, 01:09:36.694 --> 01:09:36.904 it's 01:09:37.894 --> 01:09:38.464 it's great. 01:09:38.734 --> 01:09:39.244 We can go. 01:09:40.084 --> 01:09:41.134 Yeah, this is great. 01:09:41.134 --> 01:09:41.404 We can 01:09:41.404 --> 01:09:43.444 go, we can go on for hours, but 01:09:44.202 --> 01:09:44.672 Alan: I am 01:09:44.692 --> 01:09:44.782 on 01:09:45.832 --> 01:09:46.852 track with time zones as 01:09:46.852 --> 01:09:47.002 well. 01:09:47.002 --> 01:09:48.012 So I'm just getting going. 01:09:48.032 --> 01:09:48.382 I'm just 01:09:48.382 --> 01:09:49.012 still waking up. 01:09:49.012 --> 01:09:52.312 So it's easy to, it's easy to forget that everybody else 01:09:52.432 --> 01:09:53.182 light at the end of the day. 01:09:53.927 --> 01:09:55.097 Justin: well, well, that was good. 01:09:55.127 --> 01:09:55.877 That was a good part. 01:09:55.877 --> 01:09:57.737 One you'll you'll have to see if anybody listens 01:09:57.737 --> 01:09:59.867 to this and then can have you back 01:10:00.087 --> 01:10:01.977 Alan: So Mario, we should definitely put this out as like 01:10:01.977 --> 01:10:04.957 a special exception, rather than catching up with all the others. 01:10:04.977 --> 01:10:05.457 Let's get this 01:10:05.457 --> 01:10:05.637 out. 01:10:06.534 --> 01:10:06.924 Mario: yeah. 01:10:06.954 --> 01:10:07.134 Oh 01:10:07.147 --> 01:10:07.477 Justin: Yeah. 01:10:07.477 --> 01:10:07.747 Sorry. 01:10:07.747 --> 01:10:09.967 We didn't do any updates that I, 01:10:10.927 --> 01:10:11.377 you guys, 01:10:12.397 --> 01:10:12.757 you guys, 01:10:12.757 --> 01:10:14.047 put a microphone in my face and I 01:10:14.047 --> 01:10:14.797 just talked. 01:10:14.877 --> 01:10:15.837 Alan: That was the 01:10:16.004 --> 01:10:17.134 Mario: no, it's been great. 01:10:17.224 --> 01:10:18.454 That that's, that's what 01:10:18.567 --> 01:10:19.017 Alan: It makes 01:10:19.017 --> 01:10:20.697 change from everybody hearing my voice all the 01:10:20.697 --> 01:10:20.847 time. 01:10:24.574 --> 01:10:25.144 Mario: or mine. 01:10:26.667 --> 01:10:26.907 Justin: no, 01:10:26.907 --> 01:10:27.447 this was fun. 01:10:27.447 --> 01:10:30.357 I, I like, I like getting together like this with people. 01:10:30.357 --> 01:10:34.707 I haven't really connected with that much, but just like connecting with new people 01:10:34.707 --> 01:10:37.280 and, to talk like, this is really fun for 01:10:37.280 --> 01:10:37.640 me. 01:10:37.670 --> 01:10:37.970 it 01:10:38.057 --> 01:10:38.537 Mario: yeah. 01:10:38.810 --> 01:10:39.650 Justin: pumps me up. 01:10:39.771 --> 01:10:40.191 Alan: Same. 01:10:40.377 --> 01:10:41.127 Mario: yeah, And I thought about. 01:10:41.889 --> 01:10:45.179 I thought about, um, you know, Hey, what did we talk about? 01:10:45.179 --> 01:10:48.779 She would have like a, like a particular subject or, questions to 01:10:48.779 --> 01:10:51.479 ask, but that's like the typical stuff. 01:10:51.479 --> 01:10:51.689 And I 01:10:51.689 --> 01:10:56.039 thought maybe it's just better to just jump in and let's just 01:10:56.039 --> 01:10:58.709 have a casual conversation and talk about whatever, you know, 01:10:58.749 --> 01:10:59.699 talk shop and 01:10:59.967 --> 01:11:00.237 Alan: Oh, yeah. 01:11:00.287 --> 01:11:01.467 Cause cause all of us are 01:11:01.467 --> 01:11:01.737 really 01:11:01.737 --> 01:11:02.547 stuck for things to 01:11:02.547 --> 01:11:03.237 talk about you know? 01:11:05.657 --> 01:11:06.677 Justin: Well, this is what's so great. 01:11:06.677 --> 01:11:12.347 Is this like, Whenever people like us meet up in real life, you know, 01:11:12.827 --> 01:11:17.867 uh, like there's those Mega Maker real life meetups that we've had, 01:11:18.133 --> 01:11:19.963 at a conference or whatever is like, 01:11:20.393 --> 01:11:25.127 it's not like we have stuff to talk about because these are our people, 01:11:25.127 --> 01:11:28.877 you know, this is what we it's like, just give me the avenue and 01:11:28.927 --> 01:11:29.197 Alan: Yeah. 01:11:30.047 --> 01:11:30.917 Justin: enough, you know? 01:11:31.219 --> 01:11:31.669 Mario: Yeah. 01:11:31.879 --> 01:11:35.779 I mean, it's the only chance that we get to talk to other like-minded people. 01:11:36.019 --> 01:11:39.925 Um, you know, with a direct connection, right, because we do it online, all 01:11:39.925 --> 01:11:43.465 the time, but, uh, opportunities like this where we can actually see 01:11:43.465 --> 01:11:47.665 each other and talk to each other in real time, it's just awesome. 01:11:47.785 --> 01:11:47.905 Uh, 01:11:47.935 --> 01:11:52.435 otherwise, you know, I don't really have anybody around other than my 01:11:52.435 --> 01:11:56.815 wife, but it's that same, cause she's not in the same kind of circle. 01:11:57.175 --> 01:12:00.402 Um, but, other than that, like, I don't really have 01:12:00.419 --> 01:12:02.459 anyone else that I can talk to him that would 01:12:02.459 --> 01:12:05.999 understand what's going on in, in this, uh, 01:12:06.029 --> 01:12:07.079 aspect of my life. 01:12:07.139 --> 01:12:07.289 You 01:12:07.289 --> 01:12:07.559 know? 01:12:08.032 --> 01:12:08.602 Justin: totally. 01:12:08.709 --> 01:12:09.599 Mario: this is amazing. 01:12:09.982 --> 01:12:10.492 Justin: Yeah. 01:12:11.219 --> 01:12:14.639 Mario: So we really appreciate your time and, uh, 01:12:15.099 --> 01:12:20.442 joining us today with, uh, our 20th episode of indie maker journey. 01:12:20.685 --> 01:12:21.465 Justin: Nice. 01:12:22.215 --> 01:12:22.575 Nice. 01:12:22.575 --> 01:12:23.685 Now you just got to make sure you get it 01:12:23.685 --> 01:12:24.285 edited 01:12:24.315 --> 01:12:25.215 and published. 01:12:25.275 --> 01:12:25.635 That's 01:12:25.641 --> 01:12:26.031 Alan: let's get this 01:12:26.072 --> 01:12:30.182 Mario: I know it's, it's, it's it's been a struggle, but we're, we're going 01:12:30.182 --> 01:12:32.522 to do this one and then, um, jump 01:12:32.696 --> 01:12:34.056 Alan: Yeah, we can get those. 01:12:34.226 --> 01:12:36.866 So, uh, and now, you know how great Fusioncast is. 01:12:36.866 --> 01:12:38.066 You'll be at recommended to everybody, 01:12:38.066 --> 01:12:38.246 right? 01:12:38.945 --> 01:12:39.335 Justin: yeah, 01:12:40.376 --> 01:12:41.636 Alan: it's just going to release the thing. 01:12:43.046 --> 01:12:44.156 I've got to end on that, Mario 01:12:44.566 --> 01:12:44.746 Mario: Right. 01:12:44.806 --> 01:12:47.532 I know every episode. 01:12:48.612 --> 01:12:49.662 No, that's good. 01:12:49.692 --> 01:12:50.022 Thank you. 01:12:50.022 --> 01:12:50.772 That's what I need. 01:12:50.772 --> 01:12:52.482 I need, I need to be pushed. 01:12:52.572 --> 01:12:53.682 Um, but Yeah. 01:12:53.712 --> 01:12:57.492 hopefully, uh, we'll get there, um, working towards that. 01:12:57.702 --> 01:12:58.062 Yeah. 01:12:58.122 --> 01:13:00.922 I've frozen any work on the product itself. 01:13:00.952 --> 01:13:02.632 I'm not doing any development at all. 01:13:03.022 --> 01:13:05.782 Uh, and hopefully there are no bugs that come up, you 01:13:05.782 --> 01:13:07.282 know, that, I need to jump on. 01:13:07.652 --> 01:13:08.042 but Yeah. 01:13:08.072 --> 01:13:11.582 otherwise I'm not doing any work at all on, on any features. 01:13:11.612 --> 01:13:12.752 I'm just focusing on 01:13:13.382 --> 01:13:17.612 the other aspects Of the work that needs to be done so that I can launch 01:13:17.612 --> 01:13:18.512 eventually so 01:13:19.185 --> 01:13:19.665 Justin: Nice. 01:13:20.312 --> 01:13:20.612 Mario: Yup. 01:13:20.715 --> 01:13:22.215 Justin: us know how we can help when you're ready. 01:13:22.342 --> 01:13:22.762 Mario: Awesome. 01:13:22.792 --> 01:13:23.662 Thank you so much. 01:13:23.792 --> 01:13:24.122 Alan: Awesome. 01:13:24.152 --> 01:13:24.542 Thanks so 01:13:24.542 --> 01:13:26.192 much for your time, just in a really appreciate it. 01:13:26.222 --> 01:13:27.812 And that has been super interesting. 01:13:28.415 --> 01:13:28.895 Justin: Yeah. 01:13:28.949 --> 01:13:29.549 Mario: All right. 01:13:29.549 --> 01:13:30.299 Thanks Justin. 01:13:30.502 --> 01:13:30.712 Justin: Yeah. 01:13:30.742 --> 01:13:31.432 Thanks guys.