1 00:00:06,140 --> 00:00:08,400 I'm Adam Larson and welcome to Count Me In, 2 00:00:08,660 --> 00:00:12,320 the podcast that explores the world of business from the management accountant's 3 00:00:12,321 --> 00:00:16,860 perspective. Today, we are talking to author Gordon Graham about his memoir, 4 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,329 the Intrepid Brotherhood: Public Power, Corruption, 5 00:00:20,550 --> 00:00:24,810 and Whistleblowing in the Pacific Northwest. This is a really fascinating story. 6 00:00:25,270 --> 00:00:29,290 Gordon was a senior technology leader at the public utility who uncovered 7 00:00:29,291 --> 00:00:33,090 blatant persistent corruption among executive management at the company. 8 00:00:33,510 --> 00:00:37,210 But while others accepted the corruption as an unfortunate fact of life, 9 00:00:37,790 --> 00:00:39,440 Gordon fought hard for change, 10 00:00:39,670 --> 00:00:43,000 even in the face of fierce retaliation from the executive wing. 11 00:00:43,540 --> 00:00:45,680 His decision to fight and ultimately become a whistleblower, 12 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,880 provides a riveting example of the lengths people will go to on both sides of an 13 00:00:50,881 --> 00:00:54,480 ethical dilemma. Here's my conversation with Gordon Graham. 14 00:01:01,930 --> 00:01:04,430 So Gordon, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. 15 00:01:04,431 --> 00:01:07,110 I really appreciate you coming on and let me just start by saying, 16 00:01:07,111 --> 00:01:09,670 you have just an amazing story that you wrote about in your book, 17 00:01:09,850 --> 00:01:11,830 and I hope we'll get to hear a little bit about it today, 18 00:01:11,831 --> 00:01:16,220 but one of the biggest items that you talk about is standing up for what is 19 00:01:16,221 --> 00:01:20,300 right. And now this can be especially hard when you feel like the weight of an 20 00:01:20,301 --> 00:01:23,980 organization or a local government on you and you probably feel very alone. 21 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:29,100 Can you give us your take on standing up for ethical professional treatment at 22 00:01:29,101 --> 00:01:30,300 the expense of one's career? 23 00:01:32,610 --> 00:01:36,280 Difficult choice, 24 00:01:36,281 --> 00:01:37,840 to say the least. 25 00:01:38,921 --> 00:01:43,880 I think one of the reasons I wrote the book was just so people who may 26 00:01:44,140 --> 00:01:46,080 be experiencing the same thing or recognize, 27 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:51,100 and same characteristics in their organization can have something 28 00:01:52,261 --> 00:01:57,180 to refer to help them try to determine how they can help their organization, 29 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:02,180 maybe get out of that circumstance, how they can help themselves, 30 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,820 maybe the people within the span of control that they have, 31 00:02:05,980 --> 00:02:10,860 or have responsibility for. They can help them deal with it. 32 00:02:10,940 --> 00:02:15,290 It's a very personal choice to decide to actually confront those issues. 33 00:02:15,291 --> 00:02:18,010 If you recognize 'em in your organization. 34 00:02:18,570 --> 00:02:22,320 And a lot of people are going to choose differently than I did. 35 00:02:22,321 --> 00:02:27,320 My circumstances sort of dictated that I needed to 36 00:02:27,321 --> 00:02:30,590 personally dedicate myself to trying to help the organization that I had 37 00:02:30,591 --> 00:02:32,030 invested so many years in. 38 00:02:33,190 --> 00:02:37,630 I really feel like I didn't have any choice. 39 00:02:37,830 --> 00:02:42,060 There was no other decision for me to make. 40 00:02:42,061 --> 00:02:46,970 And unfortunately even though I exercised what I think were the right steps, 41 00:02:47,330 --> 00:02:49,560 the right maneuvers to try to get people's attention, 42 00:02:49,860 --> 00:02:54,440 to build recognition of the problem, I failed at that. 43 00:02:54,441 --> 00:02:57,320 I have to admit that I didn't get that done. 44 00:02:58,370 --> 00:03:02,560 And in the end it caused me to have to change 45 00:03:03,620 --> 00:03:06,840 my employer, my career path a little bit, I had to relocate, 46 00:03:07,521 --> 00:03:11,080 a whole bunch of things happened, but that's, you know, 47 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:15,800 I really can't advise anyone on specific approach or 48 00:03:16,090 --> 00:03:18,870 steps to take to you know, 49 00:03:18,871 --> 00:03:22,990 ultimately deal with that situation if they recognize it in their organization. 50 00:03:23,889 --> 00:03:28,710 But hope hopefully the book provides some tools to evaluate how to make 51 00:03:28,711 --> 00:03:29,544 that decision. 52 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,470 Definitely. I mean, that must have been a very tough decision to make, 53 00:03:33,471 --> 00:03:36,700 especially job location and friends I'm sure. 54 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:38,620 And like community, 55 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,580 you had to kind of disrupt everything just to make that decision that you made. 56 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:45,180 That's correct. Yeah. 57 00:03:45,181 --> 00:03:50,100 There was a lot of circumstances and factors that weighed into our 58 00:03:50,340 --> 00:03:55,130 decision. I say our, because my wife played a huge part 59 00:03:56,230 --> 00:04:00,250 in that analysis to say the least. 60 00:04:00,950 --> 00:04:05,130 So yeah it really was life changing and, 61 00:04:06,190 --> 00:04:08,810 you know, I would've rather that it would've resolved differently, 62 00:04:08,990 --> 00:04:12,410 but that's just the way things evolved. 63 00:04:12,870 --> 00:04:17,279 And we made the choice that we did because we felt it was the right one. 64 00:04:17,910 --> 00:04:18,743 Yeah. 65 00:04:18,940 --> 00:04:23,360 So let's say I'm in a similar position and I'm starting to see signs of abusive 66 00:04:23,361 --> 00:04:28,040 leadership somehow in a management position at the company I'm at, you know, 67 00:04:28,070 --> 00:04:29,240 what steps should I take? 68 00:04:29,390 --> 00:04:34,150 Like what are the steps that someone should take when they start to see those 69 00:04:34,151 --> 00:04:34,984 things? 70 00:04:35,410 --> 00:04:39,310 So if you recognize some of the things 71 00:04:40,180 --> 00:04:44,790 that I've outlined or specified in the book are happening in your organization 72 00:04:45,881 --> 00:04:49,600 coincidentally, I just, I just did at the request of my self-publishing company, 73 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:54,680 I just did kind of a deep dive into that very subject and 74 00:04:54,830 --> 00:04:59,600 came up with a piece that will be shared with people that joined my 75 00:04:59,601 --> 00:05:01,040 email list and that type of thing. 76 00:05:01,540 --> 00:05:05,960 And there are certain things that I think 77 00:05:06,850 --> 00:05:10,230 constitute the right way to approach trying to resolve that in your 78 00:05:10,231 --> 00:05:15,190 organization. The first one I believe, and probably the most effective, 79 00:05:15,370 --> 00:05:20,270 if it is successful is to approach the individual or individuals 80 00:05:20,271 --> 00:05:24,430 that you think may be in control of the situation. So if it is your CEO, 81 00:05:24,730 --> 00:05:29,510 if it is your general manager that is truly turning 82 00:05:29,570 --> 00:05:32,950 the company upside down, or at least in your perception is doing that. 83 00:05:33,990 --> 00:05:35,750 I think that's the first place to go. 84 00:05:36,100 --> 00:05:40,110 What better place to resolve it than right at the source, 85 00:05:40,410 --> 00:05:44,670 if you can gain some recognition and at least get the conversation started 86 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:48,960 about, you know, why maybe you are misperceiving things. 87 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:51,040 Although in most situations, 88 00:05:51,041 --> 00:05:55,720 if you recognize the things that were happening in my story, 89 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:57,440 I don't think you're misperceiving anything, 90 00:05:57,500 --> 00:06:02,290 but at least to try to raise awareness with that individual 91 00:06:02,570 --> 00:06:07,170 or those individuals and get them to think about what may be the long term 92 00:06:07,171 --> 00:06:10,089 consequences, if it can be resolved at that level. 93 00:06:10,250 --> 00:06:14,190 I think that's probably the best solution. Failing that, 94 00:06:15,420 --> 00:06:18,950 or at least not achieving the level of success you might have liked. 95 00:06:19,750 --> 00:06:24,070 I think the next resource might be peers in your 96 00:06:24,071 --> 00:06:28,270 organization. So if you are at a mid or senior management level, 97 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:33,450 there are other people that are in your group, 98 00:06:33,460 --> 00:06:37,279 so to speak, that you must interface with on a regular basis. 99 00:06:37,460 --> 00:06:42,279 And if you can gain some recognition amongst that 100 00:06:42,290 --> 00:06:44,200 group, then 101 00:06:45,779 --> 00:06:49,520 you can sort of initiate an intervention, so to speak. 102 00:06:49,700 --> 00:06:54,589 So you've got a group of people who are of a like mind 103 00:06:55,560 --> 00:07:00,210 that can approach upper management or the senior management and 104 00:07:00,950 --> 00:07:05,690 let them know what you are observing collectively and what you think 105 00:07:05,691 --> 00:07:10,030 would be a better path to pursue. If you can't build that coalition, 106 00:07:10,060 --> 00:07:15,020 then the next place would probably be 107 00:07:15,021 --> 00:07:19,860 to try to get the attention of one or more of the 108 00:07:19,861 --> 00:07:23,360 elected board members, appointed or elected, 109 00:07:23,361 --> 00:07:25,400 however your board is constructed. 110 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:31,040 There's really nobody else in the organization that should care 111 00:07:31,041 --> 00:07:35,910 more about oversight and really nobody that has more 112 00:07:35,911 --> 00:07:37,390 responsibility for that function. 113 00:07:37,530 --> 00:07:41,870 So if you can get the attention of at least one of those individuals, 114 00:07:43,100 --> 00:07:48,040 then I think they can actually spread the word amongst the 115 00:07:48,041 --> 00:07:52,070 rest of the board members and try to intervene 116 00:07:53,670 --> 00:07:56,930 and maybe right the ship so to speak. 117 00:07:58,390 --> 00:08:02,870 So that's probably the next best place and then failing all of those things. 118 00:08:02,930 --> 00:08:06,950 You're kind of in my situation or the situation I was in. 119 00:08:07,450 --> 00:08:12,100 And really the only alternative I had at that point was 120 00:08:13,210 --> 00:08:16,470 to take my case to the public. And, you know, 121 00:08:17,260 --> 00:08:21,990 that ultimately ended up in blowing the whistle and having to file a 122 00:08:22,150 --> 00:08:25,350 petition to protect my employment, which ultimately failed. 123 00:08:25,410 --> 00:08:27,670 But that's the last resort. 124 00:08:28,050 --> 00:08:32,980 And I certainly can't advise anyone to take that 125 00:08:33,050 --> 00:08:37,140 step. The other alternative or the last alternative, I guess, 126 00:08:38,350 --> 00:08:43,050 to that step would be to just check out mentally or physically, 127 00:08:43,050 --> 00:08:46,690 you may just resign yourself to the fact, 128 00:08:46,691 --> 00:08:48,360 you're not gonna be able to change anything, 129 00:08:49,130 --> 00:08:52,940 move on to a different position, if you can find one. 130 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:57,870 And there's a lot of advice out there in the community to 131 00:08:57,871 --> 00:09:02,350 do just exactly that, if you can't thrive at your job, 132 00:09:03,730 --> 00:09:05,870 if you are being harassed, 133 00:09:06,090 --> 00:09:11,000 if you're being subject to something like constructive 134 00:09:11,110 --> 00:09:13,550 discharge, like we discussed in the book, 135 00:09:13,990 --> 00:09:16,170 then maybe you do just wanna leave. 136 00:09:16,670 --> 00:09:21,370 My choice was not to do that to try to seek resolution through another method 137 00:09:22,110 --> 00:09:23,890 and well, the story is what it is. 138 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:25,673 Yeah, yeah. 139 00:09:26,090 --> 00:09:30,809 I can imagine how lonely that must have felt not being able to build a coalition 140 00:09:30,810 --> 00:09:32,370 within your organization to say, Hey guys, 141 00:09:32,490 --> 00:09:35,920 let's right the ship and having to go outside to 142 00:09:37,700 --> 00:09:40,000 do the actual whistle blowing because no one, 143 00:09:40,070 --> 00:09:44,120 like you couldn't build that within because that can be very lonely at times. 144 00:09:45,580 --> 00:09:46,413 It was. Fortunately 145 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:52,870 I had some people on my staff who are very professional, 146 00:09:53,570 --> 00:09:54,910 you know, highly educated, 147 00:09:54,911 --> 00:09:59,870 intelligent people and knew what positive leadership really 148 00:09:59,970 --> 00:10:04,100 was. And so it wasn't hard. Well, 149 00:10:04,101 --> 00:10:07,580 they were actually the ones that initially started observing some of the 150 00:10:07,581 --> 00:10:11,730 failings of the current leadership model and, 151 00:10:12,470 --> 00:10:12,771 you know, 152 00:10:12,771 --> 00:10:16,850 because they filtered down to our level and affected our staff and our resources 153 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:23,040 and just the whole approach to what we were trying to do. So yeah, 154 00:10:23,059 --> 00:10:27,730 we had that coalition, but it, it didn't spread far enough. 155 00:10:29,330 --> 00:10:30,200 Well for what I hear you were saying, 156 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:35,280 it needs to expand outside your department to many different areas. So, 157 00:10:35,460 --> 00:10:38,960 you know, we've talked a lot about the person who is observing those things. 158 00:10:39,170 --> 00:10:42,920 Maybe we can circle to, you know, what, if I'm a leader and I'm like, 159 00:10:42,921 --> 00:10:44,920 you know what, I wanna avoid abusive leadership. 160 00:10:44,921 --> 00:10:48,750 I wanna avoid this constructive discharge. And I wanna run my team, my business, 161 00:10:48,770 --> 00:10:50,790 my organization. I wanna run them with an integrity. 162 00:10:50,790 --> 00:10:54,309 Are there some tips or some guides that you can give us as we, 163 00:10:54,370 --> 00:10:57,830 as we've been talking through this to avoid get going down that road? 164 00:10:59,650 --> 00:10:59,951 You know, 165 00:10:59,951 --> 00:11:03,670 one of the things in retrospect that we've discussed a lot is the fact, 166 00:11:03,970 --> 00:11:07,550 and I believe it's a fact that a lot of people, 167 00:11:07,580 --> 00:11:12,350 perhaps most people who are elevated to positions 168 00:11:12,370 --> 00:11:15,070 of leadership, ultimate leadership in an organization, 169 00:11:16,340 --> 00:11:21,150 it just simply doesn't come naturally to a lot of people. You have to 170 00:11:22,701 --> 00:11:26,980 be intentional about how you are going to lead people. 171 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:29,809 It's not a seat of the pants type of thing. 172 00:11:30,950 --> 00:11:35,890 And even I had to come to that realization to the level that I got to in 173 00:11:35,891 --> 00:11:36,724 my career 174 00:11:37,950 --> 00:11:42,710 I needed to discipline myself to stay on top of what was 175 00:11:42,740 --> 00:11:47,620 best for my staff in order to achieve what 176 00:11:47,621 --> 00:11:51,690 we wanted to as a department and an organization. And 177 00:11:53,380 --> 00:11:58,280 that's my first bit of advice for people who want to aspire 178 00:11:58,460 --> 00:12:02,840 to, I guess, to achieve ultimate leadership positions 179 00:12:04,340 --> 00:12:06,000 is be intentional about 180 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,520 building your leadership skills and maintaining your leadership skills. 181 00:12:11,740 --> 00:12:15,670 And then there are a number of very, 182 00:12:15,671 --> 00:12:19,870 very good models out there these days, servant leadership, 183 00:12:19,940 --> 00:12:24,650 inspirational leadership. The one that I talk about in my book, 184 00:12:24,780 --> 00:12:26,650 which is somewhat dated, 185 00:12:26,790 --> 00:12:31,040 but I don't think really ever loses its relevance is 186 00:12:31,980 --> 00:12:36,120 the learning organization from Peter Sinji and 187 00:12:36,850 --> 00:12:41,400 those components or disciplines of shared 188 00:12:41,401 --> 00:12:45,559 visioning and team learning and probably the big one personal mastery. 189 00:12:45,580 --> 00:12:50,510 So you know who you are and you can discipline yourself to implement these 190 00:12:50,511 --> 00:12:53,470 things that will be better or make your organization better, 191 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:56,260 and then make the investment in, 192 00:12:57,590 --> 00:13:00,150 and the people that you are responsible for, 193 00:13:02,350 --> 00:13:03,290 as a servant leader, 194 00:13:03,470 --> 00:13:08,280 to make sure that you are doing everything to advance their careers, 195 00:13:08,281 --> 00:13:11,120 because it just it pays back in the long run. 196 00:13:12,059 --> 00:13:13,000 One thing I heard you mention, 197 00:13:13,059 --> 00:13:16,440 and I even said it cuz I've just read some of the stuff you've been talking 198 00:13:16,441 --> 00:13:18,320 about is constructive discharge. 199 00:13:18,380 --> 00:13:21,160 And I realize our audience may not understand what that is. 200 00:13:21,161 --> 00:13:22,440 And so maybe we can define that. 201 00:13:22,700 --> 00:13:26,160 And how can you determine if you've fallen victim to this practice and what 202 00:13:26,161 --> 00:13:27,110 should you do about it. 203 00:13:28,450 --> 00:13:32,920 It's referred to in a number of ways constructive discharge, 204 00:13:32,921 --> 00:13:35,760 constructive discipline, 205 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,960 constructive dismissal. But really what it is, 206 00:13:43,100 --> 00:13:47,950 is circumstances created by your employer to 207 00:13:47,951 --> 00:13:51,070 make it impossible for you to stay. So in other words, 208 00:13:51,090 --> 00:13:55,630 in lieu of them trying to create or document 209 00:13:56,351 --> 00:14:00,630 circumstances or reasons to terminate you, 210 00:14:01,340 --> 00:14:02,910 what they try to do is, 211 00:14:03,610 --> 00:14:07,900 is do things that make it apparent that they don't want you to be there any 212 00:14:07,901 --> 00:14:12,500 longer. And really what it amounts to is, workplace harassment. 213 00:14:13,670 --> 00:14:17,850 And it's probably probably illegal in most cases 214 00:14:19,131 --> 00:14:22,010 subject to the ultimate test, I suppose, 215 00:14:22,150 --> 00:14:27,120 but that's what it means is creating those circumstances where you 216 00:14:27,121 --> 00:14:32,040 want to make it impossible for an employee to stay so that they make the 217 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:33,920 decision voluntarily to leave. 218 00:14:35,140 --> 00:14:38,640 And it's amazing the number of people that I've heard from since, 219 00:14:38,910 --> 00:14:43,690 well during the time that we were developing the book and just as I 220 00:14:43,691 --> 00:14:48,410 have related my story to people and afterward after it was released 221 00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:54,440 about how many have gone through circumstances and recognize what I 222 00:14:54,441 --> 00:14:57,080 related in the book as something that they have lived through. 223 00:14:59,190 --> 00:15:00,450 So is it something illegal? 224 00:15:00,550 --> 00:15:04,250 Is it something that companies are not allowed to do or is it kind of like under 225 00:15:04,251 --> 00:15:04,571 the law, 226 00:15:04,571 --> 00:15:09,090 that thin gray line that you can kind of do it cuz what you described made me 227 00:15:09,091 --> 00:15:10,050 think of, you know, 228 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:15,080 COVID policies where you have to get the vaccine or you can no longer 229 00:15:15,081 --> 00:15:17,440 perform your duties, I.E., you're gonna be fired, 230 00:15:17,540 --> 00:15:19,080 but they don't say that you're gonna be fired. 231 00:15:19,081 --> 00:15:22,200 They say you can no longer perform your duties. So something along those lines, 232 00:15:22,220 --> 00:15:23,840 is that constructive discharge, 233 00:15:24,140 --> 00:15:26,920 is that an example or is that outside the realms of this? 234 00:15:27,700 --> 00:15:30,390 So I don't think it's cut and dry in every case. 235 00:15:30,830 --> 00:15:35,790 I think generally the legal profession regards the term and 236 00:15:35,791 --> 00:15:40,350 those circumstances as illegal because they use that 237 00:15:40,690 --> 00:15:44,550 as justification for a claim or lawsuit or 238 00:15:45,700 --> 00:15:46,710 seeking remedy. 239 00:15:47,810 --> 00:15:52,700 So if it is indeed a circumstance where your employer 240 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:56,380 has created conditions where 241 00:15:58,010 --> 00:16:01,700 your persecution is unwarranted and it's obvious that they were trying to get 242 00:16:01,701 --> 00:16:04,500 you to leave, then, then yeah, I think it is illegal, 243 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:06,850 but it's always subject to the test. 244 00:16:07,990 --> 00:16:11,410 And in my situation, fortunately, we didn't have 245 00:16:13,260 --> 00:16:18,260 to include that in our claim and in the court proceedings. 246 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:23,210 There were other things that bubbled up to a higher level that 247 00:16:23,571 --> 00:16:25,200 we based our claim on. 248 00:16:25,340 --> 00:16:30,320 But I felt it was probably necessary to use that 249 00:16:30,390 --> 00:16:34,160 term and to describe the circumstances in my story. 250 00:16:35,020 --> 00:16:37,680 So that employees, 251 00:16:37,681 --> 00:16:42,440 people who are maybe experiencing the same thing can recognize, 252 00:16:42,780 --> 00:16:45,350 you know, what's going on and maybe how to address it. 253 00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:48,430 Yeah. Cause I can imagine it would be difficult to prove, 254 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:50,550 especially if that's your only claim. 255 00:16:51,540 --> 00:16:55,190 Yeah. I think if we had, especially in my case, 256 00:16:55,210 --> 00:16:59,560 if we had pursued that if you look at 257 00:17:00,401 --> 00:17:01,870 the things that we had 258 00:17:04,430 --> 00:17:06,710 in our documentation to try to make that case, 259 00:17:07,330 --> 00:17:11,690 my employee reviews 360 reviews, 260 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:13,530 just pure feedback. 261 00:17:14,150 --> 00:17:19,090 It would have been difficult for them to defend having done 262 00:17:19,091 --> 00:17:22,480 that. The things that they did to try to get me to leave. 263 00:17:23,100 --> 00:17:27,800 But like I say, fortunately, we didn't have to do that. It's yeah. 264 00:17:27,801 --> 00:17:32,280 It's I don't think it's a good situation to air your dirty laundry or let 265 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:37,450 somebody else air it and then and try to ring it out in the wind and get things 266 00:17:37,510 --> 00:17:38,343 sorted out. 267 00:17:38,690 --> 00:17:42,400 I can imagine. So as we kind of wrap up our conversation, 268 00:17:42,401 --> 00:17:46,800 this has been a wonderful conversation. Something that you've said a lot. 269 00:17:46,859 --> 00:17:51,480 And I've seen you say a lot in some of your articles and your website is that 270 00:17:52,321 --> 00:17:56,000 during your search for better management of ethics led you to Aristotle. 271 00:17:57,140 --> 00:17:59,960 So as we wrap up our conversation, kind of wrap up everything we talk about, 272 00:17:59,961 --> 00:18:03,760 what can we learn from ancient Greece to be better management and ethics. 273 00:18:05,020 --> 00:18:09,470 The Aristotle thread or hook throughout 274 00:18:10,210 --> 00:18:11,109 my book and, 275 00:18:11,390 --> 00:18:15,390 and the whole process when I was an MBA student, 276 00:18:16,071 --> 00:18:20,670 people like Peter Drucker and Chris Argyris and even Ken Blanchard 277 00:18:21,220 --> 00:18:26,200 were writing about management and leadership that evolved 278 00:18:26,430 --> 00:18:29,600 from Greek philosophers and especially Aristotle. 279 00:18:30,491 --> 00:18:34,570 Change management, leadership, service management, 280 00:18:35,260 --> 00:18:39,290 everything seemed to have a hook in 281 00:18:40,830 --> 00:18:45,800 the virtue ethics that were promoted by Greek 282 00:18:45,801 --> 00:18:50,000 philosophers, things like wisdom and temperance and 283 00:18:51,390 --> 00:18:56,280 bravery and leniency and justice and all those 284 00:18:56,281 --> 00:19:01,040 things were translated into more contemporary management and 285 00:19:01,041 --> 00:19:02,869 leadership philosophies. 286 00:19:03,970 --> 00:19:07,750 So I remembered that I wrote research papers that 287 00:19:09,231 --> 00:19:13,670 were based on things that evolved from 288 00:19:14,551 --> 00:19:18,950 the Greek philosophers and just tried to convey how 289 00:19:19,450 --> 00:19:24,420 modern management and leadership techniques were anchored in 290 00:19:24,421 --> 00:19:27,820 those philosophies. And I think that still exists today. 291 00:19:27,820 --> 00:19:31,460 If you look at the new leadership philosophies, 292 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:37,320 you can find things that actually relate to the Greek 293 00:19:37,321 --> 00:19:40,590 philosophers and what they initially or originally espouse. 294 00:19:42,260 --> 00:19:47,119 And I think one of the reasons is even though everybody looks at it 295 00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:51,320 and refers to it as Aristotle's virtue ethics, 296 00:19:52,850 --> 00:19:55,270 the Latin term that they use, 297 00:19:55,580 --> 00:19:59,810 that we translate into virtue is probably more 298 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,570 correctly translated as excellence. 299 00:20:03,910 --> 00:20:05,730 And so if you look at it that way, 300 00:20:05,731 --> 00:20:10,720 what they were actually saying was if you follow the behaviors that they 301 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:11,470 promoted, 302 00:20:11,470 --> 00:20:16,240 then you can reach the proper state or condition for 303 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:21,180 a human, performing well in the function of being a human being. 304 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:23,060 And I mean, 305 00:20:23,061 --> 00:20:27,420 that really anchors every leadership philosophy that you might want to embrace 306 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:28,740 and promote going forward. 307 00:20:29,790 --> 00:20:33,890 So that's the whole I guess, Aristotle hook, 308 00:20:34,590 --> 00:20:38,010 the reason that he appears so prominently in the book, well, 309 00:20:38,011 --> 00:20:40,000 there's a couple of them. That's the first one, 310 00:20:40,869 --> 00:20:43,440 because those Greek philosophers did, 311 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,000 I think provide the basis, 312 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:51,520 the launching pad for pretty much everything that we should be promoting in 313 00:20:51,521 --> 00:20:52,440 leadership today. 314 00:20:53,380 --> 00:20:58,320 And the second one is in the latter part of the book where there 315 00:20:58,380 --> 00:21:02,600 was an individual that actually emerged after the original 316 00:21:03,630 --> 00:21:08,530 trial verdict who defended the organization, 317 00:21:08,550 --> 00:21:12,609 the utility that I worked for against the jury decision. 318 00:21:13,190 --> 00:21:18,090 And he was kind of standing out there on his own alone as a 319 00:21:18,091 --> 00:21:23,090 defendant against the rest of the community who supported 320 00:21:23,710 --> 00:21:28,240 our initiative to try to get a management change and a different perspective for 321 00:21:28,241 --> 00:21:31,520 the organization. And he called himself Aristotle. 322 00:21:31,521 --> 00:21:34,440 He used that non deplume or pseudonym. 323 00:21:35,380 --> 00:21:40,250 And I thought that that was significant because, you know, 324 00:21:40,251 --> 00:21:44,240 everything that we had tried to do from a service management leadership 325 00:21:44,241 --> 00:21:48,880 perspective was actually anchored in Aristotle's virtue ethics. 326 00:21:49,460 --> 00:21:50,161 And here, 327 00:21:50,161 --> 00:21:54,640 this fellow was actually defending the more 328 00:21:54,830 --> 00:21:59,080 belligerent and destructive leadership of the utility, 329 00:21:59,220 --> 00:22:00,960 but he called himself Aristotle. 330 00:22:00,980 --> 00:22:05,590 So I thought I'd better get that in the book as kind of a contradiction. 331 00:22:06,810 --> 00:22:08,630 So that's the whole Aristotle story. 332 00:22:09,010 --> 00:22:12,109 That's why you see him so much in this story. 333 00:22:13,010 --> 00:22:15,830 And I just couldn't leave that out when I wrote this book. 334 00:22:18,750 --> 00:22:19,830 This has been Count Me In, 335 00:22:20,650 --> 00:22:24,619 IMA's podcast providing you with the latest perspectives of thought leaders from 336 00:22:24,620 --> 00:22:27,100 the accounting and finance profession. If you like what you heard, 337 00:22:27,101 --> 00:22:30,420 and you'd like to be counted in for more relevant accounting and finance 338 00:22:30,530 --> 00:22:34,140 education, visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org.