1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,834 < Intro > 2 00:00:05,834 --> 00:00:08,834 – Welcome to Count Me In, the podcast where we examine all things 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:11,390 affecting the accounting and finance world. 4 00:00:11,390 --> 00:00:13,510 I'm Adam Larson, and I'm excited to introduce 5 00:00:13,510 --> 00:00:15,834 our speaker today, Robert Cooke. 6 00:00:15,834 --> 00:00:19,000 Robert is the founder and principal architect at 3Forge, 7 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,400 a New York-based provider of data visualization 8 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:23,500 and visualization technology. 9 00:00:23,500 --> 00:00:25,939 Today, Robert and I discuss his passion 10 00:00:25,939 --> 00:00:29,960 on the interrelationship between computers, people, and data. 11 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:31,210 And describes the future trends 12 00:00:31,210 --> 00:00:33,334 he expects to see in data management. 13 00:00:33,334 --> 00:00:35,090 Businesses of all sizes can gain value 14 00:00:35,090 --> 00:00:38,334 through using data to optimize and streamline their business. 15 00:00:38,450 --> 00:00:40,480 And we discuss how the technology chosen 16 00:00:40,480 --> 00:00:44,460 plays a role in driving a competitive advantage. 17 00:00:44,460 --> 00:00:46,167 Let's listen in to learn more. 18 00:00:46,167 --> 00:00:52,667 < Music > 19 00:00:52,667 --> 00:00:54,070 – Well, Robert, I want to thank you so much 20 00:00:54,070 --> 00:00:55,390 for coming on the podcast today. 21 00:00:55,390 --> 00:00:57,280 We're really excited to talk about you 22 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:59,167 and your organization, and fintech. 23 00:00:59,167 --> 00:01:00,460 And before we go there, 24 00:01:00,460 --> 00:01:02,400 I just wanted to start with maybe you could tell 25 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:04,600 a little bit about your story and how you got to where you are? 26 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,000 – Okay, yes, great, Adam, thanks for having me on today. 27 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,170 So my story is I'm a lover of all things computers. 28 00:01:10,170 --> 00:01:12,260 I've been into computers my whole life, 29 00:01:12,260 --> 00:01:13,667 ever since when I was a little kid. 30 00:01:13,667 --> 00:01:16,240 I went through the natural learning curve, 31 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:18,220 which is, originally, I wanted to build video games, 32 00:01:18,220 --> 00:01:19,710 and this is in the early '80s. 33 00:01:19,710 --> 00:01:21,400 So I was focusing on what does it mean 34 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,450 to write efficient code and things along those lines. 35 00:01:24,450 --> 00:01:27,833 And then later on, we had this club, 36 00:01:27,833 --> 00:01:30,200 and in the club people could buy sodas 37 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,189 and buy candy bars, and things like that, 38 00:01:32,189 --> 00:01:33,950 and it was like a Boy Scouts equivalent. 39 00:01:33,950 --> 00:01:36,680 But it was all being paper-driven 40 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,000 in terms of the accounting and everything. 41 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,400 And I felt, "Well, this is a great opportunity for computers." 42 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:41,590 And that's when I realized, wow, 43 00:01:41,590 --> 00:01:43,970 computers, as a kid, I always saw video games, 44 00:01:43,970 --> 00:01:46,580 and I realized these really are business machines, 45 00:01:46,580 --> 00:01:48,666 they can really help streamline things. 46 00:01:48,666 --> 00:01:52,170 And, so, our little club was actually, 47 00:01:52,170 --> 00:01:54,680 probably, one of the first grade school clubs 48 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,610 to, actually, be managed through electric accounting. 49 00:01:57,610 --> 00:01:59,740 Now, I'm embarrassed by the system I built at the time 50 00:01:59,740 --> 00:02:01,649 it was very hardcoded for sodas and candy bars, 51 00:02:01,649 --> 00:02:03,640 but it still got me started on the concept. 52 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,439 So I've really spent my whole life thinking about, 53 00:02:06,439 --> 00:02:10,999 abstractly, what it means to connect humans to data. 54 00:02:10,999 --> 00:02:13,666 And that can take you in a lot of places. 55 00:02:13,666 --> 00:02:16,999 And then I ended up working in fintech, 56 00:02:16,999 --> 00:02:18,666 it was Bear Stearns, it was in 2002. 57 00:02:18,666 --> 00:02:21,499 And I was head of infrastructure at the dark pool Liquidnet. 58 00:02:21,499 --> 00:02:23,000 My work product has been at many 59 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,999 of the tier-one banks, but all the while it's been this, 60 00:02:26,010 --> 00:02:28,999 I would say my story has been one of interest in computers 61 00:02:29,110 --> 00:02:31,999 and interested in how humans and data interact. 62 00:02:31,999 --> 00:02:35,499 – And that's a huge part of, especially, in the accounting world. 63 00:02:35,499 --> 00:02:37,660 Where you have to understand where your data is 64 00:02:37,660 --> 00:02:38,990 and what your data is doing. 65 00:02:38,990 --> 00:02:41,666 To be able to visualize it properly, to give the right reports 66 00:02:41,666 --> 00:02:44,100 to your CEO and all of those items. 67 00:02:44,100 --> 00:02:47,600 And, so, we all understand how important data is. 68 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:48,332 What does your organization, 69 00:02:48,332 --> 00:02:50,670 what does 3Forge do in terms of data? 70 00:02:50,670 --> 00:02:52,166 How do they look at data? 71 00:02:52,166 --> 00:02:54,430 – Well, I look at data, I've actually broken 72 00:02:54,430 --> 00:02:57,739 the problem down into three buckets. 73 00:02:57,739 --> 00:03:00,810 I think two of which are very important for accounting. 74 00:03:00,810 --> 00:03:02,739 But to be exhaustive, I'll go through all three of them. 75 00:03:02,739 --> 00:03:04,930 The first bucket is what I would call 76 00:03:04,930 --> 00:03:06,379 real-time streaming of data. 77 00:03:06,379 --> 00:03:09,499 And that is not necessarily as important for this conversation, 78 00:03:09,499 --> 00:03:11,332 but it is something that we focus on as well. 79 00:03:11,332 --> 00:03:13,832 So the idea is, as data is taking place somewhere 80 00:03:13,832 --> 00:03:16,320 you want to be able to have that streaming in, 81 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:18,790 and as a human be able to read that in real-time. 82 00:03:18,790 --> 00:03:19,832 An example I could give is, 83 00:03:19,832 --> 00:03:22,332 if you think of, at this point, cars are pretty advanced. 84 00:03:22,332 --> 00:03:23,665 That dashboard in your car, 85 00:03:23,665 --> 00:03:26,201 that's real-time streaming information coming to you, 86 00:03:26,201 --> 00:03:27,201 telling you your speed limit. 87 00:03:27,201 --> 00:03:29,230 You don't have to ask the car, "What's my speed limit?" 88 00:03:29,230 --> 00:03:31,140 It's just always showing it to you, that's real time. 89 00:03:31,140 --> 00:03:32,999 I think very cool things could be done 90 00:03:32,999 --> 00:03:34,349 in accounting with that, 91 00:03:34,349 --> 00:03:35,930 as you start to move into workflows, 92 00:03:35,930 --> 00:03:37,360 but I'll digress on that. 93 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,540 The second thing is what I would call 94 00:03:39,540 --> 00:03:41,750 asking your computer about data. 95 00:03:41,750 --> 00:03:44,760 And, so, a very simple analogy would be 96 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:45,970 you simply go on to Google 97 00:03:45,970 --> 00:03:48,010 and you type in, "Who is Adam Larson?" 98 00:03:48,010 --> 00:03:50,060 And then it comes up and gives you an answer. 99 00:03:50,060 --> 00:03:52,999 That would be you, a human, invoking a question, 100 00:03:52,999 --> 00:03:54,665 asking the computer and the computer comes back, 101 00:03:54,665 --> 00:03:55,499 that's the second thing. 102 00:03:55,499 --> 00:03:57,332 And then the third thing is data entry, 103 00:03:57,332 --> 00:03:59,165 which is pretty much what it sounds like. 104 00:03:59,209 --> 00:04:02,329 The ability to fill out a form, hit Submit and send that. 105 00:04:02,329 --> 00:04:03,498 And then that goes into the computer. 106 00:04:03,498 --> 00:04:04,832 Maybe it goes through some validity, 107 00:04:04,832 --> 00:04:06,498 maybe it goes through some workflow process, 108 00:04:06,498 --> 00:04:07,498 with the ability to enter data. 109 00:04:07,630 --> 00:04:10,165 So, to recap, we break it into three buckets. 110 00:04:10,165 --> 00:04:11,665 1. Data moving in real-time. 111 00:04:11,665 --> 00:04:13,832 2. The ability to ask questions about data. 112 00:04:13,832 --> 00:04:14,769 3. And the ability to enter data. 113 00:04:14,769 --> 00:04:16,998 And I think one of the cool things is, 114 00:04:16,998 --> 00:04:20,519 and this is like decades to come up with this answer. 115 00:04:20,519 --> 00:04:21,680 It almost seems embarrassing 116 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:23,450 because it seems so simple, at the end of the day. 117 00:04:23,450 --> 00:04:25,460 But once you've thought about it 118 00:04:25,460 --> 00:04:27,920 in those three buckets, you can really start to tackle 119 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,400 just about any problem that comes your way. 120 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,110 And, frankly, accounting has some of the most deceptively, 121 00:04:33,110 --> 00:04:35,360 challenging problems there is. 122 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:37,620 I mean, some of the systems that I've seen built 123 00:04:37,620 --> 00:04:41,120 on our platform are way beyond my understanding, 124 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:42,320 to be quite frank. 125 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:43,660 You know what I mean? 126 00:04:43,660 --> 00:04:46,165 But there's a lot that goes into it. 127 00:04:46,165 --> 00:04:48,300 – Yes, there is a lot that goes into it. 128 00:04:48,300 --> 00:04:50,820 So that just goes to show it's really important 129 00:04:50,820 --> 00:04:53,160 to have the right technology in place, 130 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:54,180 at your organization. 131 00:04:54,180 --> 00:04:56,470 To make sure that you can analyze your data properly. 132 00:04:56,470 --> 00:04:58,660 What have you seen as you've worked 133 00:04:58,660 --> 00:04:59,665 with many organizations. 134 00:04:59,665 --> 00:05:01,620 As they come to you with different problems 135 00:05:01,620 --> 00:05:04,249 and having to work through their data issues? 136 00:05:04,249 --> 00:05:07,800 – Well, it's interesting because it goes without saying 137 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:13,010 that Excel is the predominant piece of software being used. 138 00:05:13,010 --> 00:05:16,789 And Excel, I'm sure if I look, I've got five monitors here, 139 00:05:16,789 --> 00:05:17,831 I'm sure if I look around enough 140 00:05:17,831 --> 00:05:20,498 I'll find Excel up on one of them for something. 141 00:05:20,498 --> 00:05:23,639 And, I think, Excel is an incredibly powerful tool 142 00:05:23,639 --> 00:05:25,331 for certain activities, 143 00:05:25,331 --> 00:05:27,664 especially, if you're trying to mock things up quickly 144 00:05:27,664 --> 00:05:29,498 You're trying to aggregate some data, 145 00:05:29,498 --> 00:05:30,998 maybe determine interest rates, 146 00:05:30,998 --> 00:05:34,390 something like that it's very good for that. 147 00:05:34,390 --> 00:05:37,710 But I do think it has a tendency to be overused, 148 00:05:37,710 --> 00:05:38,930 to the point of abused, 149 00:05:38,930 --> 00:05:40,090 and I think a lot of people would agree. 150 00:05:40,090 --> 00:05:43,580 But at the same time, at least, there hasn't been a good alternative. 151 00:05:43,580 --> 00:05:45,310 And that's something we focused on, 152 00:05:45,310 --> 00:05:46,310 is providing that alternative. 153 00:05:46,310 --> 00:05:51,831 A few of the places where Excel starts to break down is, 154 00:05:51,970 --> 00:05:53,831 and they're making headway in this slowly, 155 00:05:53,831 --> 00:05:57,420 but it's being able to prevent fat-finger events. 156 00:05:57,420 --> 00:05:59,930 It's very easy to accidentally update data 157 00:05:59,930 --> 00:06:01,164 that you shouldn't be updating. 158 00:06:01,164 --> 00:06:05,440 Also, it's hard to keep a good audit trail of who's done what, 159 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,831 and there really isn't much around workflows. 160 00:06:07,831 --> 00:06:11,160 So let's say you and I work in an organization. 161 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,430 You can enter data into a system, 162 00:06:13,430 --> 00:06:15,400 but that data doesn't actually get reflected 163 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:20,331 until I, as your manager, in this scenario, would approve that. 164 00:06:20,331 --> 00:06:22,789 And, so, something along those lines. 165 00:06:22,789 --> 00:06:25,030 So the workflow aspect is another thing missing. 166 00:06:25,030 --> 00:06:27,590 But with that said, I think, Excel is definitely 167 00:06:27,590 --> 00:06:30,650 a very powerful tool, and it's used in a lot of cases. 168 00:06:30,650 --> 00:06:34,880 I think there are also a countless number of vendor solutions 169 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:36,997 that solve a particular problem, 170 00:06:36,997 --> 00:06:39,664 within any space that you can choose, 171 00:06:39,664 --> 00:06:41,599 accounting certainly being one of them. 172 00:06:41,599 --> 00:06:43,419 And then you've got, as you get 173 00:06:43,419 --> 00:06:44,419 to the larger organizations, 174 00:06:44,419 --> 00:06:46,630 a lot of our customers are tier-one banks, 175 00:06:46,630 --> 00:06:48,830 100,000 employees plus organizations. 176 00:06:48,830 --> 00:06:51,330 They'll often roll their own software. 177 00:06:51,330 --> 00:06:54,599 And, so, what 3Forge is trying to fill the gap 178 00:06:54,599 --> 00:06:57,190 is to provide a generic platform. 179 00:06:57,190 --> 00:07:00,830 And I would say Excel is a data-agnostic, generic platform. 180 00:07:00,830 --> 00:07:02,410 You can do just about anything you want in it. 181 00:07:02,410 --> 00:07:05,720 So we have provided a data-agnostic platform, 182 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,500 but with a focus on trying to fill in those gaps 183 00:07:08,500 --> 00:07:11,470 around being able to audit changes to the calculations. 184 00:07:11,470 --> 00:07:14,330 Being able to put workflows around data entry. 185 00:07:14,330 --> 00:07:16,500 Making it a little bit easier to build reports. 186 00:07:16,500 --> 00:07:18,997 And I think another thing is, and this gets a bit technical, 187 00:07:18,997 --> 00:07:24,580 but having a separation between data, calculations, 188 00:07:24,580 --> 00:07:27,349 and display those three pieces. 189 00:07:27,349 --> 00:07:29,497 And, so, that's what we focused on. 190 00:07:29,497 --> 00:07:31,090 – Well, and that's a huge part 191 00:07:31,090 --> 00:07:33,629 where things can go wrong, in Excel, 192 00:07:33,629 --> 00:07:36,460 is where you're trying to put calculations 193 00:07:36,460 --> 00:07:38,663 in the same spot where you have all the data listed. 194 00:07:38,663 --> 00:07:40,830 And you can maybe accidentally delete something, 195 00:07:40,830 --> 00:07:41,830 you can do all those things. 196 00:07:41,830 --> 00:07:43,630 So having those blocks in place, 197 00:07:43,630 --> 00:07:45,590 sounds like a really great solution 198 00:07:45,590 --> 00:07:47,710 to some of the biggest problems 199 00:07:47,710 --> 00:07:49,663 that you see with Excel. 200 00:07:49,663 --> 00:07:52,340 – Yes, and it's interesting because these problems, 201 00:07:52,340 --> 00:07:55,163 a lot of these problems were solved in the '80s. 202 00:07:55,163 --> 00:07:58,030 And they made their ways into databases 203 00:07:58,030 --> 00:07:59,070 and I could talk a lot. 204 00:07:59,070 --> 00:08:02,199 I mean I love the history of the database, 205 00:08:02,199 --> 00:08:04,470 and where it's gone, and the sort of things it's done. 206 00:08:04,470 --> 00:08:06,496 But it's been really, I would say, 207 00:08:06,496 --> 00:08:10,663 centered around the developer mentality 208 00:08:10,663 --> 00:08:13,830 not the business-user mentality. 209 00:08:13,830 --> 00:08:16,979 And, so, we've just taken a lot of the things 210 00:08:16,979 --> 00:08:18,819 we learned from the database discipline 211 00:08:18,819 --> 00:08:20,570 and tried to raise that up, 212 00:08:20,570 --> 00:08:25,030 so that it can be a little bit more digestible by business users. 213 00:08:25,030 --> 00:08:26,289 By people that are actually used 214 00:08:26,289 --> 00:08:28,099 to using something like Excel. 215 00:08:28,099 --> 00:08:30,680 So, for example, I could go on all day, 216 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:32,870 but one thing that databases do very well 217 00:08:32,870 --> 00:08:35,663 is what you would call data integrity. 218 00:08:35,663 --> 00:08:40,663 So, you can't put apple pie into a price column, 219 00:08:40,663 --> 00:08:42,163 it just won't let you. 220 00:08:42,163 --> 00:08:43,150 It won't let you type that in. 221 00:08:43,150 --> 00:08:44,810 So it's just, "No, it's got to be a price." 222 00:08:44,810 --> 00:08:46,361 In fact, if you can even say it's got to be a price 223 00:08:46,361 --> 00:08:48,360 with this many digits of accuracy, 224 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:49,829 and it has to be within this range. 225 00:08:49,829 --> 00:08:51,450 So if you could set up those things, 226 00:08:51,450 --> 00:08:53,340 it's actually pretty tough to do in Excel. 227 00:08:53,340 --> 00:08:54,750 Excel makes it very flexible. 228 00:08:54,750 --> 00:08:56,590 But it's not hard for one to imagine that 229 00:08:56,590 --> 00:08:57,940 you could add those sorts of features. 230 00:08:57,940 --> 00:08:58,940 You know what I mean? 231 00:08:58,940 --> 00:08:59,940 You can add those features 232 00:08:59,940 --> 00:09:04,163 to say, "Okay, this column of data must have this validity to it." 233 00:09:04,163 --> 00:09:04,900 You know what I mean? 234 00:09:04,900 --> 00:09:06,880 And if it doesn't, then, just don't let them enter it 235 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:08,970 or force them to do something else, et cetera. 236 00:09:08,970 --> 00:09:10,660 So that's just one of many examples. 237 00:09:10,660 --> 00:09:12,996 But really it's been about, I think, a lot of our journey 238 00:09:13,079 --> 00:09:14,663 has been trying to bridge that gap. 239 00:09:14,663 --> 00:09:18,209 Between the sophisticated solutions that developers 240 00:09:18,209 --> 00:09:21,810 have at their disposal, learned through databases, 241 00:09:21,810 --> 00:09:24,430 and being able to move that up the value chain 242 00:09:24,430 --> 00:09:28,496 so that business users have access to that as they- 243 00:09:28,496 --> 00:09:30,240 – Yes, that makes a lot of sense. 244 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,760 Because what we've been seeing in the accounting space 245 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,996 is that a lot of accountants are learning about data science. 246 00:09:35,996 --> 00:09:37,770 Because they recognize the importance 247 00:09:37,770 --> 00:09:39,511 of having the validity of the data 248 00:09:39,511 --> 00:09:41,750 and being able to analyze it from that way. 249 00:09:41,750 --> 00:09:44,810 But are there ways for people to understand 250 00:09:44,810 --> 00:09:47,496 and analyze the data without being the data scientist? 251 00:09:47,496 --> 00:09:51,320 – Yes, first off, well, if we specifically talk about our platform, 252 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:52,620 I could give general answers. 253 00:09:52,620 --> 00:09:53,620 But with our platform, 254 00:09:53,620 --> 00:09:56,496 how we've tackled that is through personas. 255 00:09:56,496 --> 00:09:58,959 So the idea is you have, 256 00:09:58,959 --> 00:10:02,860 I guess, what you could call the database manager, 257 00:10:02,860 --> 00:10:04,720 we call it the Admin persona. 258 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,200 And those are really the people that can actually go in 259 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,570 and do very physical things with the data. 260 00:10:10,570 --> 00:10:13,279 They can actually change the validity around 261 00:10:13,279 --> 00:10:14,829 what it means to be a price, 262 00:10:14,829 --> 00:10:18,390 as an example, data integrity type things. 263 00:10:18,390 --> 00:10:19,810 And then you've got another persona, 264 00:10:19,810 --> 00:10:24,100 which is people that want to be able to build dashboards. 265 00:10:24,100 --> 00:10:26,279 And usually, they're subject matter experts. 266 00:10:26,279 --> 00:10:30,200 So they understand that; "If I take price times quantity, 267 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,990 well, that's going to give me value." 268 00:10:32,990 --> 00:10:34,730 Something like that, I mean, that's a trivial example. 269 00:10:34,730 --> 00:10:36,800 But the idea that they are subject matter experts, 270 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:38,660 and they understand how the data operates, 271 00:10:38,660 --> 00:10:40,610 and how it interacts, and what data 272 00:10:40,610 --> 00:10:43,470 from this sheet multiplied by data in this sheet, 273 00:10:43,470 --> 00:10:44,899 what that's going to look like. 274 00:10:44,899 --> 00:10:47,828 And then the last persona I would say would be the consumer. 275 00:10:47,828 --> 00:10:51,160 And now we're a little bit more into either people 276 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:53,260 that are just looking for end-of-day reports, 277 00:10:53,260 --> 00:10:57,529 or want to be able to fill out a questionnaire, 278 00:10:57,529 --> 00:10:59,240 and then get answers around that. 279 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:01,995 What was our P & L over the last quarter? 280 00:11:01,995 --> 00:11:03,639 And they don't, necessarily, need to understand 281 00:11:03,639 --> 00:11:04,780 all the inner workings under there. 282 00:11:04,780 --> 00:11:08,700 So a lot of this is tackled through this persona concept, 283 00:11:08,700 --> 00:11:11,279 which, again, this isn't something that we invented. 284 00:11:11,279 --> 00:11:12,339 It's just we're trying to make it 285 00:11:12,339 --> 00:11:16,995 a little bit more accessible to the financial world. 286 00:11:16,995 --> 00:11:19,090 – Yes, so do you have any examples, 287 00:11:19,090 --> 00:11:20,328 maybe that you can share, 288 00:11:20,328 --> 00:11:22,530 of organizations that have been successful? 289 00:11:22,530 --> 00:11:24,610 Obviously, you don't have to use names of the organizations. 290 00:11:24,610 --> 00:11:27,495 But of organizations that have been successful 291 00:11:27,495 --> 00:11:31,360 using software like yours, as you've observed it? 292 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:33,660 – Yes, absolutely, I mean, we've definitely had cases 293 00:11:33,660 --> 00:11:38,029 where organizations, especially, when they're dealing with money 294 00:11:38,029 --> 00:11:40,870 and everything has to be 100% accurate. 295 00:11:40,870 --> 00:11:42,890 I was surprised to learn this, 296 00:11:42,890 --> 00:11:45,720 but a lot of times they would have to actually tackle it, 297 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:46,995 because you can never be sure, 298 00:11:46,995 --> 00:11:50,160 "Is the Excel, the integrity of all that data correct?" 299 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:52,661 They would actually do things in duplicate 300 00:11:52,661 --> 00:11:54,820 and then see if everything netted out. 301 00:11:54,820 --> 00:11:56,995 And when it didn't, then they could work backwards. 302 00:11:56,995 --> 00:11:59,620 And by doing it twice, having two individuals do it, 303 00:11:59,620 --> 00:12:01,730 now, they knew that integrity was there. 304 00:12:01,730 --> 00:12:04,279 Then, the issue they start to face, over time, though, 305 00:12:04,279 --> 00:12:07,600 is as the assets under management grows, 306 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,149 so does the complexity of trying to calculate 307 00:12:11,149 --> 00:12:13,380 what the carry interest is going to look like. 308 00:12:13,380 --> 00:12:14,328 This is just one example. 309 00:12:14,328 --> 00:12:17,440 And, so, as the assets grow and grow 310 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,994 this becomes, exponentially, more difficult, 311 00:12:19,994 --> 00:12:21,580 I'm imagining, I can't say for certain. 312 00:12:21,580 --> 00:12:24,550 But to me, it seems as though as you have more moving pieces 313 00:12:24,550 --> 00:12:26,270 and you calculate, predict it all, 314 00:12:26,270 --> 00:12:28,661 it just goes up and up exponentially. 315 00:12:28,661 --> 00:12:31,161 And, so, it actually got to a point, 316 00:12:31,250 --> 00:12:32,820 and I've seen this at multiple firms, 317 00:12:32,820 --> 00:12:35,130 where the amount of time it takes 318 00:12:35,130 --> 00:12:38,010 to actually do the calculations, 319 00:12:38,010 --> 00:12:42,320 and to provide reports back of investor positions 320 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,190 and things like that, exceeds what can be done in a month. 321 00:12:45,190 --> 00:12:47,449 And then as it grows, it can't be done in a quarter. 322 00:12:47,449 --> 00:12:50,080 And then, all of a sudden, you're now to a yearly result. 323 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,930 And, at this point, our customers, 324 00:12:52,930 --> 00:12:54,994 they really look that and say they have three choices. 325 00:12:55,060 --> 00:12:56,250 They either just tell everyone, 326 00:12:56,250 --> 00:12:58,389 "Look, we can only produce this yearly." 327 00:12:58,389 --> 00:12:59,750 Or they say, "We're going to find 328 00:12:59,750 --> 00:13:02,370 some vendor product that happens." 329 00:13:02,370 --> 00:13:03,990 And they can use Excel in that, first example, 330 00:13:03,990 --> 00:13:05,610 they use Excel and they do it yearly. 331 00:13:05,610 --> 00:13:07,339 Second example is they conform 332 00:13:07,339 --> 00:13:10,950 to an existing vendor product that has a certain solution. 333 00:13:10,950 --> 00:13:12,610 But that means that basically the vendor 334 00:13:12,610 --> 00:13:14,760 is now driving the business, 335 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:16,690 as opposed to the business driving the business. 336 00:13:16,690 --> 00:13:17,327 You know what I mean? 337 00:13:17,327 --> 00:13:19,380 It has to conform to how the vendor designed the software. 338 00:13:19,380 --> 00:13:22,994 And then the third option is using our approach. 339 00:13:22,994 --> 00:13:26,290 And I say our approach because I could see, over time, 340 00:13:26,290 --> 00:13:27,830 other people building products like ours. 341 00:13:27,830 --> 00:13:29,630 But, for now, it's our platform. 342 00:13:29,630 --> 00:13:31,130 So they could basically say, 343 00:13:31,130 --> 00:13:33,829 "Okay, I'm going to adopt this data-agnostic solution. 344 00:13:33,829 --> 00:13:36,230 I'm going to put my business logic in 345 00:13:36,230 --> 00:13:38,089 and then we can now produce these reports." 346 00:13:38,089 --> 00:13:39,840 And, so, we've been able to help 347 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,279 our customers keep their very customized, 348 00:13:42,279 --> 00:13:44,120 I would call, intellectual property, 349 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:45,490 that gives them a competitive edge. 350 00:13:45,490 --> 00:13:46,820 They've been able to keep all that. 351 00:13:46,820 --> 00:13:47,994 All those things that we're leaving, 352 00:13:47,994 --> 00:13:49,690 that were all domiciled in Excel, 353 00:13:49,690 --> 00:13:52,250 they've now been able to put that into our platform. 354 00:13:52,250 --> 00:13:54,339 But now they have all the rigors and checks 355 00:13:54,339 --> 00:13:58,130 that they would get from a bespoke vendor solution, 356 00:13:58,130 --> 00:14:00,410 or by hiring a team of people and building 357 00:14:00,410 --> 00:14:02,494 something from scratch, in a database. 358 00:14:02,494 --> 00:14:05,710 – So would you say that it's been successful? 359 00:14:05,710 --> 00:14:09,100 Have you been successful at this, as time has gone on? 360 00:14:09,100 --> 00:14:12,827 I see that 3Forge has been around since around 2010. 361 00:14:12,827 --> 00:14:15,827 How is that process gone along over the years? 362 00:14:15,827 --> 00:14:19,600 – Well, the crazy thing is we attacked this opposite 363 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,493 almost every other software vendor. 364 00:14:23,493 --> 00:14:26,827 I mean, we really went after the hardest to-use cases there were. 365 00:14:26,827 --> 00:14:28,550 I think today we estimated that 366 00:14:28,550 --> 00:14:31,589 about one in five equity orders around the world 367 00:14:31,589 --> 00:14:34,690 are somehow analyzed through our software, across our clients. 368 00:14:34,690 --> 00:14:39,959 So when it comes to the large, recognized banks, 369 00:14:39,959 --> 00:14:41,327 we're being used in those. 370 00:14:41,327 --> 00:14:45,330 And, so, we're talking about replacing gobs of Excel reports, 371 00:14:45,330 --> 00:14:48,060 and it's not a technical term, but just huge volumes 372 00:14:48,060 --> 00:14:50,500 of what was being done in Excel have been replaced. 373 00:14:50,500 --> 00:14:55,090 So we've seen success, for sure, at the large tier-one banks. 374 00:14:55,090 --> 00:14:58,320 It's recently in the last, I would say 24 months, 375 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:04,993 that now that has started to trickle over to the buy-side. 376 00:15:04,993 --> 00:15:07,990 And, so, yes, we've definitely seen success 377 00:15:07,990 --> 00:15:10,420 at several buy-side firms as well. 378 00:15:10,420 --> 00:15:12,580 - So as you think about the future, 379 00:15:12,580 --> 00:15:15,660 as we're coming to the end of the conversation. 380 00:15:15,660 --> 00:15:18,660 When you look at the future and the future of technology, 381 00:15:18,660 --> 00:15:20,660 and how the industries are going. 382 00:15:20,660 --> 00:15:24,220 Where do you see organizations 383 00:15:24,220 --> 00:15:27,659 going as far as looking at their data? 384 00:15:27,659 --> 00:15:30,159 – well, I think there's a lot to be said there. 385 00:15:30,159 --> 00:15:34,110 First off, every organization, and I've thought about this. 386 00:15:34,110 --> 00:15:37,690 I blurted this out on one podcast I did a while ago, 387 00:15:37,690 --> 00:15:39,493 and then I thought about it retrospectively, 388 00:15:39,493 --> 00:15:41,600 and the more I think about it, the more I agree. 389 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:46,620 There is no business that cannot gain substantial value 390 00:15:46,620 --> 00:15:49,320 through the data they already or should own, 391 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:50,920 that they're producing. 392 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,993 I thought about it, even if you're a small car dealership, 393 00:15:54,993 --> 00:15:58,326 or if you are a cleaning service, 394 00:15:58,326 --> 00:16:01,170 there's probably data that can help you optimize 395 00:16:01,170 --> 00:16:03,800 and streamline your business. 396 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,493 Going all the way back to my candy bars 397 00:16:06,493 --> 00:16:08,339 and soda back when I was a kid. 398 00:16:08,339 --> 00:16:11,826 So I think that, and it's definitely happening 399 00:16:11,826 --> 00:16:13,720 with our larger customers. 400 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,089 They've now acknowledged that what was considered 401 00:16:16,089 --> 00:16:18,659 to be a cost is now an asset. 402 00:16:18,659 --> 00:16:21,339 At one point, I was like, "Oh, we have to store seven years of data 403 00:16:21,339 --> 00:16:23,269 because the SEC is requiring us to do this." 404 00:16:23,269 --> 00:16:24,839 And I was like, "There's overhead in this cost." 405 00:16:24,839 --> 00:16:29,159 And they've, actually, that's shifted on the balance sheet to an asset. 406 00:16:29,159 --> 00:16:31,810 So that information that's sitting there is critical. 407 00:16:31,810 --> 00:16:34,230 The problem is when it's sitting, 408 00:16:34,230 --> 00:16:36,050 and I know I keep picking on Excel, 409 00:16:36,050 --> 00:16:38,380 but I could pick on lots of systems. 410 00:16:38,380 --> 00:16:43,980 The problem is when all of that data is sitting in siloed, 411 00:16:43,980 --> 00:16:47,760 broken up areas and you can't look at it holistically, 412 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,740 it's very hard to extract value, 413 00:16:50,740 --> 00:16:53,510 certainly, maximum value from that data. 414 00:16:53,510 --> 00:16:55,489 And I know I'm going on a little bit of tangent here. 415 00:16:55,489 --> 00:16:58,060 But one example, we had a customer 416 00:16:58,060 --> 00:16:59,759 who they literally had an Excel file 417 00:16:59,759 --> 00:17:01,900 for every single account that they were managing. 418 00:17:01,900 --> 00:17:04,339 So if they had 400 accounts they had 400 Excel files. 419 00:17:04,339 --> 00:17:06,740 To be able to actually take that data, 420 00:17:06,740 --> 00:17:08,069 which is something we do very well. 421 00:17:08,069 --> 00:17:10,992 To take our system and lay that on top of these Excel files. 422 00:17:10,992 --> 00:17:12,100 Something I haven't talked too much about 423 00:17:12,100 --> 00:17:14,430 but we have the ability to take our platform 424 00:17:14,430 --> 00:17:16,080 and have it sit on top of Excel files. 425 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,339 So you can ask questions across your entire Excel plant, 426 00:17:19,339 --> 00:17:20,709 if you want to call it that. 427 00:17:20,709 --> 00:17:22,730 And suddenly they could realize there were certain accounts 428 00:17:22,730 --> 00:17:23,810 that were sitting there very domiciled, 429 00:17:23,810 --> 00:17:24,810 not doing anything. 430 00:17:24,810 --> 00:17:26,060 There were other accounts that had 431 00:17:26,060 --> 00:17:30,420 a lion's share of the investment, and it became very easy 432 00:17:30,420 --> 00:17:34,390 to ask these questions across this data. 433 00:17:34,390 --> 00:17:37,460 So, I think, one of the things is that organizations 434 00:17:37,460 --> 00:17:39,390 are going to understand that they need 435 00:17:39,390 --> 00:17:41,180 to start to consolidate that data, 436 00:17:41,180 --> 00:17:42,658 to get more value out of it. 437 00:17:42,658 --> 00:17:44,530 A data warehouse is one approach. 438 00:17:44,530 --> 00:17:47,040 I don't actually think it's necessarily the best approach, 439 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:48,658 especially for large organizations, 440 00:17:48,658 --> 00:17:51,825 but I do think that is a big part of the future. 441 00:17:51,825 --> 00:17:55,825 Another thing, another trend that I see 442 00:17:55,825 --> 00:18:00,158 is that as systems grow and companies grow, 443 00:18:00,158 --> 00:18:03,325 systems tend towards complexity, they have to. 444 00:18:03,325 --> 00:18:04,660 People are always adding new features; 445 00:18:04,660 --> 00:18:06,492 they're not really taking away features. 446 00:18:06,492 --> 00:18:09,170 People are adding new laws to a contract. 447 00:18:09,170 --> 00:18:11,700 They're not removing elements from a contract. 448 00:18:11,700 --> 00:18:12,658 You know what I mean? 449 00:18:12,658 --> 00:18:14,030 Generally speaking, and, so, 450 00:18:14,030 --> 00:18:20,390 as things get more and more complex, I think there needs to be more rigor 451 00:18:20,390 --> 00:18:24,491 around how data is managed. 452 00:18:24,491 --> 00:18:28,600 And I know that's a lot to chew, what I just said there. 453 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,010 But as systems are getting more and more complex, 454 00:18:31,010 --> 00:18:33,140 there needs to be processes in place 455 00:18:33,140 --> 00:18:37,325 that manage the flow and accountability of that data. 456 00:18:37,325 --> 00:18:40,325 And I think organizations that do that better, 457 00:18:40,325 --> 00:18:43,669 and in fact, one of our customer is all over the place. 458 00:18:43,669 --> 00:18:49,158 They just have their whole motto is "Stability first." 459 00:18:49,158 --> 00:18:51,491 You know what I mean? – Yes. 460 00:18:51,491 --> 00:18:54,324 – And by the way, they're probably one of the top companies, 461 00:18:54,324 --> 00:18:55,824 one of the largest companies in the world. 462 00:18:55,824 --> 00:18:57,679 And the more I thought about that, 463 00:18:57,679 --> 00:19:00,039 well, isn't that, kind of a boring mantra? 464 00:19:00,039 --> 00:19:01,039 "Stability first." 465 00:19:01,039 --> 00:19:02,324 But you know what, at the end of the day, 466 00:19:02,324 --> 00:19:04,789 it's having that stability, 467 00:19:04,789 --> 00:19:09,158 and having the security, and the awareness of the complexity 468 00:19:09,270 --> 00:19:12,799 that I think really gives people a competitive advantage. 469 00:19:12,799 --> 00:19:13,990 – It really does. 470 00:19:13,990 --> 00:19:15,559 And the other thing I was thinking about, 471 00:19:15,559 --> 00:19:16,580 maybe you can comment on this, 472 00:19:16,580 --> 00:19:18,330 what about small to medium-sized businesses? 473 00:19:18,330 --> 00:19:20,900 Because you've mentioned a lot of the big-time businesses. 474 00:19:20,900 --> 00:19:23,440 But small to medium-sized businesses 475 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:25,658 are a large portion of IMA members, 476 00:19:25,658 --> 00:19:29,790 and they're tapping into technology more and more 477 00:19:29,790 --> 00:19:33,100 because the world is online right now. 478 00:19:33,100 --> 00:19:34,590 And, so, what about those people 479 00:19:34,590 --> 00:19:36,900 who are trying to get into data now? 480 00:19:36,900 --> 00:19:42,200 – Mh-hmm, yes, well, it's definitely worth stepping back 481 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:43,657 and saying, as a small business, 482 00:19:43,657 --> 00:19:45,070 what is your intellectual IP? 483 00:19:45,070 --> 00:19:51,324 And, by the way, I founded 3Forge in 2010, '11, 2011. 484 00:19:51,324 --> 00:19:53,830 And, so, I know what it's like to be a small startup. 485 00:19:53,830 --> 00:19:55,270 And you have to make, 486 00:19:55,270 --> 00:19:58,320 pretty much all your decisions have to be close to correct, 487 00:19:58,320 --> 00:19:58,824 you know what I mean? 488 00:19:58,824 --> 00:20:02,400 And you have to be willing to pivot, et cetera, as you need to. 489 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,169 So I look at it as, for small companies, 490 00:20:06,169 --> 00:20:08,070 it's important to have focus 491 00:20:08,070 --> 00:20:11,657 on what it is that is your intellectual IP. 492 00:20:11,657 --> 00:20:17,250 And be able to take that and use the correct technology for it. 493 00:20:17,250 --> 00:20:20,590 And I do believe that through technology, 494 00:20:20,590 --> 00:20:22,260 using the right technology, 495 00:20:22,260 --> 00:20:25,157 you can get a large competitive advantage. 496 00:20:25,157 --> 00:20:28,380 And if you're using the same technology as your competitors, 497 00:20:28,380 --> 00:20:30,890 of course, you can be smarter than your competitors, 498 00:20:30,890 --> 00:20:31,324 that's why you can win. 499 00:20:31,324 --> 00:20:32,970 You can have some edge or some insight 500 00:20:32,970 --> 00:20:34,157 that your competitors don't. 501 00:20:34,157 --> 00:20:37,640 But, ultimately, as we go down this path more and more, 502 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:39,990 the technology that customers choose, 503 00:20:39,990 --> 00:20:41,760 that small businesses choose, 504 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:43,657 is going to have a bigger impact. 505 00:20:43,657 --> 00:20:46,670 And, by the way, I will say that small companies 506 00:20:46,670 --> 00:20:50,490 have a huge advantage in that they can be much more nimble 507 00:20:50,490 --> 00:20:53,323 and they can make decisions a lot faster. 508 00:20:53,323 --> 00:20:56,157 The ability for a large organization 509 00:20:56,157 --> 00:20:58,157 to switch from one platform to another 510 00:20:58,157 --> 00:21:01,823 can easily be a large initiative. 511 00:21:01,823 --> 00:21:03,490 I'm not even talking about 3Forge, at this point, 512 00:21:03,490 --> 00:21:05,990 just generally speaking, switching from one platform to another. 513 00:21:05,990 --> 00:21:08,323 18-month initiative, 24-month initiative, 514 00:21:08,323 --> 00:21:11,080 a team of 50 developers, da, da, da, these huge things. 515 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,360 But small companies take advantage 516 00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:15,157 of the fact that you can move quickly. 517 00:21:15,157 --> 00:21:18,150 – Definitely, that's a huge point to remember, 518 00:21:18,150 --> 00:21:20,799 is that you can be more nimble when you are smaller. 519 00:21:20,799 --> 00:21:22,960 And being able to do that is a huge advantage, 520 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,049 especially, as the world becomes smaller 521 00:21:25,049 --> 00:21:28,350 because of how vast technology is growing, basically. 522 00:21:28,350 --> 00:21:30,490 – Mh-hmm, agreed. – Well, Robert, 523 00:21:30,490 --> 00:21:32,750 thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. 524 00:21:32,750 --> 00:21:34,120 I really appreciate you coming on 525 00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:36,156 and sharing your knowledge and expertise with us. 526 00:21:36,156 --> 00:21:38,323 – Yes, absolutely, thanks for having me on. 527 00:21:38,323 --> 00:21:40,490 < Outro > 528 00:21:40,490 --> 00:21:43,156 – This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast. 529 00:21:43,156 --> 00:21:46,070 Providing you with the latest perspectives of thought leaders 530 00:21:46,070 --> 00:21:48,210 from the accounting and finance profession. 531 00:21:48,210 --> 00:21:50,760 If you like what you heard and you'd like to be counted in, 532 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:52,990 for more relevant accounting and finance education, 533 00:21:52,990 --> 00:21:58,323 visit IMA's website at www.imanet/org.