RaphaÃ«l: Hey folks, and welcome to the small tech podcast.
I'm Raph from EC.
And today we have an amazing, wonderful guest.
She is the director of Curiko, an instructor at Simon Fraser University's
Social Innovation Certificate Program, was the co founder of Kudoz, has done
a variety of things with InWithForward and Possibilities and all kinds
of great work in sort of social impact and now tech things as well.
She is Janey Roh Hi, Janey!
Janey: Hi!
RaphaÃ«l: How's it going?
Janey: Good, how are you doing?
RaphaÃ«l: Yeah, I'm doing all right.
I would love to hear about your background and how it led you into sort
of tech things like Kudoz and Curiko and what that journey has been like.
Janey: I probably would have considered myself one of the like the least
technical people in that kind of a vein.
But yeah I started out actually in education and that's where
I found myself then moving into the social service sector.
I used to work in pre employment programs in Vancouver and then moved
to working with Possibilities, a large organization that supports
adults with a cognitive disability.
And I was managing between 11 to 13 different.
I've been working on and was feeling a bit stuck stuck around how we could get folks
more involved and engaged with community.
And then this posting came up of joining something called
the Burnaby Starter Project.
Through partnership with the other organizations Burnaby Association for
Community Inclusion, Kinsight along with a social design agency, InWithForward.
And they had been putting out a posting saying they were going to do
a research project over a period of 10 weeks to explore social isolation
and loneliness in the city of Burnaby.
And I thought, wow, this is a great opportunity to figure out a way to get
better connected with community, and so I joined that project, we moved into a
social housing complex in Burnaby for a period of 10 weeks, spent lots of
times time with folks that we're living there and in the surrounding areas to
see what their day to day life was like.
And out of that project came a number of ideas to prototype,
and one of them was Kudoz.
And Kudoz was an experience platform connecting people with and
without disabilities to in person experiences across the Lower Mainland.
And that ran for a period of about years.
Seven, eight years and ran quite well until the pandemic and the partnership
that had formed Kudoz also had a number of other prototypes that were running
alongside of it with a shared mission around raising, disability awareness,
building community reducing stigma.
And we took the opportunity during the pandemic to bring a number of those
prototypes together under one, which is now called Curiko, and Curiko launched a
couple years ago, and so I've fallen into this Tech kind of space accidentally.
And it's been really exciting and a lot of learning.
I'm still constantly learning as I go.
But that's what led us here.
RaphaÃ«l: Amazing.
I'm curious when you did the program and then you
eventually set up Kudoz, was it always
with the intention of building something Web-based or like tech
or was that not necessarily an outcome that you were looking for?
Janey: Yeah, I think the intention back then was always to have
something that was web based.
Kudoz also had a mobile app that was developed to accompany it.
And the mobile app was developed because we did a lot of research
around How do people learn?
And how do people learn best?
And we knew that reflection was a key component of really internalizing
some of the learning that someone might have from an experience.
And so the mobile app took a series of photos that would then be able to
go on somebody's profile that then people could ask them about afterwards
and, see how things went, what did they learn from it, but also What
did they learn about themselves?
How did they feel after that particular experience?
And did that spark anything different for them around how they viewed themselves
or what they wanted to do or how they wanted to spend their time in the future?
RaphaÃ«l: Yeah.
That's that's really interesting.
I feel like, especially just thinking about tech in the sort
of big tech perspective, right?
The way that people interact with each other and themselves and
understanding themselves has your.
Like perspective on like how those things work over the years changed
or I feel like the whole ecosystem has changed in like our thinking of
like how we live with technology.
Yeah.
Janey: Yeah, I think for us, and I think like with like lots of folks
when we first started Kudoz and then we're moving to Kyrko, I think over
the years our learning a lot has been around accessibility technology.
And I think That is often really taken for granted.
A lot of the accessibility tools, even themselves, or plugins people have on
their websites, aren't that accessible.
They require some level of literacy maybe aren't that compatible with
screen readers, those kinds of things.
I think for us, we wanted to create something that was not just user
friendly, but also created a really delightful, joyful experience then would
be reflective of what types of experiences they might have through utilizing the
platform and meeting community members and, sharing experience either, with
podcasting or knitting or kickboxing or brewery tours or whatever was on
the catalog during that period of time.
And I think for us during the pandemic.
just really saw how I think how much people were really isolated, and so
technology became a real tool to be able to stay connected and so there was a
number of folks for whom technology was still a barrier, and so spending some time
to ensure people had the right equipment the right access, that you have stable
internet connection, and I think those are a lot of things that lots of folks really
just take for granted, but, we had a lot of that too in the early days of Kudoz, so
we actually used to have a loaner program.
Where we would collect, you know, older devices and donations of devices,
and we would issue them for free to folks because the Kudoz mobile app
didn't require an internet connection.
You could use it without, and so that was like a bit of a gateway
for people to start using technology and then get familiar with it.
And then a number of those folks actually then went on to get
their own devices afterwards.
RaphaÃ«l: Oh, cool, there's something like really interesting to think
about there in that
I feel like some of those things are possible in the
context of small tech, right?
Like things that are very like community driven, that's very focused on connection,
whereas the big companies are very focused on like the metrics and how many likes
you get on a thing and that sort of thing.
I think there's something really
beautiful in how Curiko, and the
way that you work with community and really thinking about the people
as opposed to just the engagement stats or anything like that.
So I love that.
I'm curious, is there anything that you found like over the years, either when
you first got into this or even just over time things that you found surprising as
you got into building technology, I'm sure there's plenty surprising or unusual or
yeah, just things that you did not expect as you got into building tech products.
Janey: Yeah, I think lots of I think just how nuanced usability is, right?
I think that piece, and I think also just in terms of like, how
much time things will take, right?
I think on the surface, it looks like, we create like beautiful designs and
then Oh, how difficult would it be to implement something like this?
And then really learning that actually like what is required on the back end
to make some of those things happen.
I think like even us having our booking system and developing our
own bespoke calendar system to fit in with the platform was a lot of
learning timeline, scope, budget, all that kind of project management stuff.
And I think how many other tools there are available for us to
be able to utilize and plug in.
And also, that a number of those organizations really trying to find
organizations to work and tools that we utilize that also share our values.
that was like a big piece too, is that approaching these different places
and asking them if they had considered how they could make their products
more accessible to the broader public, especially to smaller non profits
where, you know, the pricing of some of these plugins or, tools that you
could utilize are really a barrier for people to be able to engage with.
RaphaÃ«l: yeah, that actually makes me think of a question, accessibility
means a lot of things, right?
It can be screen readers, but it can also be just the contrast of text on
a page, or it can be making sure that the language is accessible to someone.
It means so many things.
And how do you think about that in the context of designing a
product, designing an experience?
Yeah how do you frame your thinking around, like, all of the different forms
of accessibility and I guess, yeah, how does that inform, or how do you
see that reflected in those products that you were just talking about?
Do they generally consider all of those things?
Are there some that do better?
How does that come across?
Janey: Yeah, that's a great question.
And I think like also a great question for our UX designers, and Boyd, right?
Because think they're a big part of I think part of it is our
own practice and our methods of co design and co production.
so every time, that Boyd and Raph are working on a new feature they are thinking
about the accessibility considerations and they're constantly developing and
testing that with our community members.
So they're getting feedback.
And so that is all built into that design process, that we're making
sure we're not just trying to adhere to the regulatory standards of
accessibility, how does it actually work for the people that are using it?
And how does this feel like that is being designed and produced
alongside of our community members?
And so I think that's where we gain also the most insights, is that we think oh,
this looks fine, I think when we were doing some user testing, I was able to
sit in on some sections sessions, and people were like, oh, they had no idea
that they needed to scroll down the page to get more information, right?
Because if you don't have any indicators there, where is that?
But also in terms of just like people and you know how big certain
things should be or where certain things are placed so that they don't
accidentally click the same thing because it's too close to another thing.
Just those kinds of pieces and so I think for us doing a lot of that those pieces
those sessions with community members.
It's been really helpful.
RaphaÃ«l: Yeah awesome and do you find that the tools that you plug into, do
they generally think about accessibility?
How do they align?
Janey: Yeah I'm sure there are some considerations, I think that you
meantioned contrast, readability, those kinds of things, but I
think there's definitely barriers.
There's barriers for me, too, to be able to use some of them, right?
In particular now that everything has two factor authentication, or
that you have to be able to use like an SSO to sign on to something.
Like these are some things that I think are not that can present
some barriers for folks for sure.
And I think there's a lot of places where they're like, every site has like an
FAQ or something like that and some of them are a little bit more robust than
others or have a short series of videos.
But I think a lot of them have an assumption that you have some,
technological knowledge even engaging with some of their tutorials or ways that
you know, you can help and oftentimes, I'm just trying to reach a live person.
RaphaÃ«l: Yep.
Do those exist?
Live
I feel the internet is just bots now.
Janey: There's a lot of gatekeeping, I think live people got to do the You've got
to do a live chat, which is really a bot.
Then you've got to send the email.
Then sometimes I have to send a message through social media in some way.
And then, and usually Hey, can I just talk to somebody?
takes a bit of steps.
Yeah.
RaphaÃ«l: Yep.
That also makes me think of, is there funding specifically
for accessibility projects?
Janey: I think for us, we've been really fortunate with
some of our funding sources.
We do receive most of our funding from Community Living British Columbia,
as well as some grants that we've received through either Vancouver
Foundation, Israeli Foundation, and then also Vancouver Coastal Health.
And then of course, with the partnership with the the four
organizations, there's support provided in numerous ways with that.
And so I think what we found to be a bit tricky is that people, Some places are
willing to fund the R& D, the development costs, then funding stops, and then
they don't want to fund implementation and then the ongoing, operations of the
product, the results of that R& D process.
And so I think we have also learned from us in this space and you
do the tech world is that you.
Have to constantly and consistently invest in the R& D
because technology is changing.
Things are changing quite rapidly sometimes and others less but that
you can't build one thing and then just leave it for, five, six years
and then revisit it then because, It's been out of date or things aren't
being as responsive as they need to.
And I think it's also not being responsive to the changing wants
and desires of the community.
And so that has been like a big learning for us in terms of like, how
do we account for funding and how do we budget for that ongoing R& D piece?
RaphaÃ«l: Yeah.
That makes a lot of sense with that in mind, in this sort of social impact space
what tips would you have, for if someone, if a social entrepreneur was listening
to this and was thinking of building a product to serve their community, what
are some things that you would advise them to think about when it comes to funding?
Janey: I think look for.
Places, organizations that align with your values.
I think the big piece of it.
and that really see the longer term vision of what you're trying to achieve.
I think for us with Curiko, the big part is that, we are trying to build
a community and build a community of people with and without disabilities and
challenge Ableism and challenge stigma.
We had read some recent literature by Tessa Charlesworth that said, at the
current rate it would take 200 years before disability, internalized disability
bias was neutralized and that was a shocking stat for us so I think it's to
try and seek out people that also feel like that is too long and that we've got
to work together to make headway on that.
And so I think, being able to find funders that are real allies and are
real champions and supporters of the vision, and also share those values
around and around our Curiko values of, building community ensuring
people are living flourishing lives.
I think that's the biggest kind of learning us.
RaphaÃ«l: Yeah.
Is there anything operationally that you would think about?
As I think even just like funding cycles and stuff like that.
Janey: I think more money isn't always better.
think that's the thing, right?
For us it's, people feel like you need all this money, or you need all
this capital in order to continue things going, but you can start small.
And more money means more reporting that you have to be accountable for, and you
have to be really careful about whether you want to receive that or not, and does
that add to your kind of vision and the strategy that you have moving forward.
Does it adhere with your values or is it going to sway you away from it?
And oftentimes, you will try and contort yourself to fit a particular funding guide
template or funding guide regulations or all of those kinds of things and then
you need to then figure out how you're going to report on those additional pieces
to your funders, which then creates not just, I think, more work, but it also
creates the wrong kind of work, that's not who we're really wanting to prioritize.
We're wanting to prioritize community not just, a checkbox on a funding report.
RaphaÃ«l: Yep.
I think that makes a lot of sense.
I've heard of people in just broader sort of startup space, also talking
about things like R& D funding.
And how it moves them off course, instead of serving their customers,
they're serving the funders.
Janey: Yeah.
I that, I think part of that is in the power structure, right?
Is that inevitably when somebody is giving you money in a large
portion of money you feel like, oh, I've got to align with that.
But I think choosing funders that are also prioritizing the right like the community
members, the people for whom your product or your intervention or your service
or whatever you're developing is for.
RaphaÃ«l: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
How does the broader sort of program design and how does that intersect
with specifically the tech product and the different stakeholders, funders,
the team, admin team, and the users.
And I guess, there must be others too, but those I feel are the sort of
three that I generally think about.
But how do those things all come together?
And are there what are the tensions that you find most I don't know, that
pop up on the most regular basis?
And how do you handle them?
Janey: I feel like we're in a pretty good place with that in of
we have really great funders that I think allow a lot of freedom and
flexibility in the development.
I think what happens with community and the tech sometimes is our community
members, are really wide ranging we'll do some testing with some folks, and
usability of a particular feature, some things might come up, but then it
doesn't come up, like something else comes up with a different segment of
users, and then a different segment of users, and so for us on our side, it's
like which direction do we go in which segment of users are you prioritizing?
And is there a bit of a happy medium, if you were to about like the Venn
diagram, the circle, like where's the overlap of all three, and what's
like an elegant solution that could meet the desires of all of them.
But I think for us, it's also understanding you can't always
make everything work for everybody.
And so it's.
Trying to really understand what's working for whom, when, what's
not, and then using that learning to then move into development.
RaphaÃ«l: Yeah.
Cool.
I feel like I had another question on that.
So Curiko there's
a lot of stuff.
I think we at EC are very focused on like the thing that shows up on the screen,
but there's so much more than that.
There's the sort of the in person experiences and events and the actual
like community itself, like the, Managing those relationships between people.
Yeah.
Could you talk a bit more about how those relationships, how you build
them, how do you build trust and how all of those things come back to product?
Janey: Yeah, so we've got a number of roles on the team
that are community facing roles.
So we have a curation team that works with hosts to build experiences, put
them up on the platform, works with hosts on And ongoing sort of engagement with
those experiences, offer any coaching or troubleshooting if things might come up.
And then we've got coaches and coaches work with folks that are engaging
with the community as participants.
And who might want some coaching around facing a particular barrier and building
strategies and then we have, of course, like our volunteer moderators that support
hosts with online experiences to make sure they run smooth so that the host can
really focus on an experience and not have to worry about the technical aspects of
the running and alongside of all those roles also comes a series of, as you
mentioned, in person interactions outside of those experiences and building the
relationship and building community and so really we utilize the Curiko platform
as a tool to support many of those ongoing interactions and relationships.
And so I think that's we're often have this conversation of does do we feel
like the platform reflects how do we make more of our community voices or
stories be shared through the platform?
And that's where we're always constantly like iterating.
And right now we're working on redoing a little bit of the homepage and things
like that, so that we're able to include some of the things that we feel like
are not being shown as much as we'd like it to currently on the website.
RaphaÃ«l: Yep.
That makes sense.
I feel like that covers most of my questions.
Is there anything else you want to talk about
with Curiko or
any final tips or learnings or anything?
Janey: Oh, final tips and learning.
There's always learning to be had, sure.
like a real journey.
I would just encourage your users if they want to check it out, it's curiko.ca
it's open and free to everybody.
It is really a place for people that are wanting and looking for different ways to
connect either with themselves or other people or places or culture you name it.
Yeah, I think it's just an open space and I think for us, it's
like constantly reflecting on how we can utilize Curiko and tech,
build and foster these meaningful connections within our community.
RaphaÃ«l: Amazing.
So last question, \ small tech product that you use that does
something good in your life.
Janey: Yeah.
I was thinking about it and I was like I use some, this Seesaw app, and it is an
app That I think schools use to be able to give parents a little bit of a snapshot
of what happens over the course of a day or a project in their child's life.
And so I have a little nine year old, and so I'm able to, And you can also through
the app see photos of what he's doing or working on or who he's spending time with.
And that's been a great point of, shared conversation with us, because at the end
of the day, oftentimes when you ask your Your child, what, what did you do today?
Or how did things go?
always was good.
so you get varying details of things that happen.
And so I think for me, the Seesaw app helps me stay connected with
what's happening in his day to day.
And to be able to, if I go back to the old reflection, it's to be able
to help them also reflect and be like, Oh, what did you learn from that?
Or how did you feel when you were doing that?
Or who are you spending time with?
And so that helps us stay connected.
RaphaÃ«l: That's awesome.
Cool.
Alrighty.
Thank you
so much, Janey.
Janey: Thank you.
RaphaÃ«l: Folks.
That was my chat with Janey Roh from Curiko.
And I so appreciate her taking the time to chat with me.
It was an amazing conversation.
I hope you all learned something from it.
That is it from the small tech podcast this time around.
And we will see you in the next episode, in the meantime, we all want
to do something good in the world.
So go out there and build something.
Good folks.
See ya.