WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:08.060 Raphaël: Hey folks, and welcome to the small tech podcast. 00:00:08.080 --> 00:00:09.920 I'm Raph from EC. 00:00:09.940 --> 00:00:13.210 And today we have an amazing, wonderful guest. 00:00:13.855 --> 00:00:18.685 She is the director of Curiko, an instructor at Simon Fraser University's 00:00:18.685 --> 00:00:23.415 Social Innovation Certificate Program, was the co founder of Kudoz, has done 00:00:23.424 --> 00:00:27.044 a variety of things with InWithForward and Possibilities and all kinds 00:00:27.044 --> 00:00:31.705 of great work in sort of social impact and now tech things as well. 00:00:31.735 --> 00:00:33.525 She is Janey Roh Hi, Janey! 00:00:34.008 --> 00:00:34.468 Janey: Hi! 00:00:34.795 --> 00:00:35.555 Raphaël: How's it going? 00:00:35.555 --> 00:00:36.635 Janey: Good, how are you doing? 00:00:36.797 --> 00:00:38.167 Raphaël: Yeah, I'm doing all right. 00:00:38.617 --> 00:00:43.316 I would love to hear about your background and how it led you into sort 00:00:43.316 --> 00:00:48.552 of tech things like Kudoz and Curiko and what that journey has been like. 00:00:48.642 --> 00:00:53.022 Janey: I probably would have considered myself one of the like the least 00:00:53.521 --> 00:00:55.982 technical people in that kind of a vein. 00:00:55.982 --> 00:01:01.072 But yeah I started out actually in education and that's where 00:01:01.112 --> 00:01:04.252 I found myself then moving into the social service sector. 00:01:04.472 --> 00:01:10.042 I used to work in pre employment programs in Vancouver and then moved 00:01:10.082 --> 00:01:14.612 to working with Possibilities, a large organization that supports 00:01:14.752 --> 00:01:16.792 adults with a cognitive disability. 00:01:16.982 --> 00:01:21.092 And I was managing between 11 to 13 different. 00:01:21.142 --> 00:01:27.128 I've been working on and was feeling a bit stuck stuck around how we could get folks 00:01:27.128 --> 00:01:30.624 more involved and engaged with community. 00:01:30.624 --> 00:01:34.135 And then this posting came up of joining something called 00:01:34.135 --> 00:01:36.077 the Burnaby Starter Project. 00:01:36.402 --> 00:01:40.412 Through partnership with the other organizations Burnaby Association for 00:01:40.412 --> 00:01:45.472 Community Inclusion, Kinsight along with a social design agency, InWithForward. 00:01:45.832 --> 00:01:48.472 And they had been putting out a posting saying they were going to do 00:01:48.472 --> 00:01:52.702 a research project over a period of 10 weeks to explore social isolation 00:01:52.832 --> 00:01:55.902 and loneliness in the city of Burnaby. 00:01:56.687 --> 00:02:01.307 And I thought, wow, this is a great opportunity to figure out a way to get 00:02:01.307 --> 00:02:05.457 better connected with community, and so I joined that project, we moved into a 00:02:05.457 --> 00:02:09.387 social housing complex in Burnaby for a period of 10 weeks, spent lots of 00:02:09.407 --> 00:02:15.102 times time with folks that we're living there and in the surrounding areas to 00:02:15.102 --> 00:02:17.482 see what their day to day life was like. 00:02:17.682 --> 00:02:21.052 And out of that project came a number of ideas to prototype, 00:02:21.082 --> 00:02:23.222 and one of them was Kudoz. 00:02:23.592 --> 00:02:27.472 And Kudoz was an experience platform connecting people with and 00:02:27.472 --> 00:02:32.142 without disabilities to in person experiences across the Lower Mainland. 00:02:32.492 --> 00:02:35.037 And that ran for a period of about years. 00:02:35.087 --> 00:02:40.327 Seven, eight years and ran quite well until the pandemic and the partnership 00:02:40.347 --> 00:02:46.787 that had formed Kudoz also had a number of other prototypes that were running 00:02:46.797 --> 00:02:51.957 alongside of it with a shared mission around raising, disability awareness, 00:02:51.957 --> 00:02:54.477 building community reducing stigma. 00:02:54.997 --> 00:02:59.637 And we took the opportunity during the pandemic to bring a number of those 00:02:59.657 --> 00:03:06.197 prototypes together under one, which is now called Curiko, and Curiko launched a 00:03:06.197 --> 00:03:13.182 couple years ago, and so I've fallen into this Tech kind of space accidentally. 00:03:13.402 --> 00:03:16.322 And it's been really exciting and a lot of learning. 00:03:16.322 --> 00:03:18.402 I'm still constantly learning as I go. 00:03:18.592 --> 00:03:19.922 But that's what led us here. 00:03:19.922 --> 00:03:20.632 Raphaël: Amazing. 00:03:20.632 --> 00:03:23.682 I'm curious when you did the program and then you 00:03:23.682 --> 00:03:26.562 eventually set up Kudoz, was it always 00:03:26.562 --> 00:03:31.302 with the intention of building something Web-based or like tech 00:03:31.302 --> 00:03:35.442 or was that not necessarily an outcome that you were looking for? 00:03:35.442 --> 00:03:38.432 Janey: Yeah, I think the intention back then was always to have 00:03:38.432 --> 00:03:40.242 something that was web based. 00:03:40.522 --> 00:03:44.652 Kudoz also had a mobile app that was developed to accompany it. 00:03:44.652 --> 00:03:47.592 And the mobile app was developed because we did a lot of research 00:03:47.602 --> 00:03:49.842 around How do people learn? 00:03:49.852 --> 00:03:51.042 And how do people learn best? 00:03:51.072 --> 00:03:56.735 And we knew that reflection was a key component of really internalizing 00:03:56.745 --> 00:03:59.845 some of the learning that someone might have from an experience. 00:03:59.845 --> 00:04:03.885 And so the mobile app took a series of photos that would then be able to 00:04:03.915 --> 00:04:07.835 go on somebody's profile that then people could ask them about afterwards 00:04:07.835 --> 00:04:11.375 and, see how things went, what did they learn from it, but also What 00:04:11.375 --> 00:04:12.685 did they learn about themselves? 00:04:12.695 --> 00:04:15.385 How did they feel after that particular experience? 00:04:15.385 --> 00:04:19.375 And did that spark anything different for them around how they viewed themselves 00:04:19.555 --> 00:04:23.135 or what they wanted to do or how they wanted to spend their time in the future? 00:04:23.135 --> 00:04:23.855 Raphaël: Yeah. 00:04:23.855 --> 00:04:25.085 That's that's really interesting. 00:04:25.085 --> 00:04:28.595 I feel like, especially just thinking about tech in the sort 00:04:28.595 --> 00:04:30.985 of big tech perspective, right? 00:04:30.990 --> 00:04:34.220 The way that people interact with each other and themselves and 00:04:34.220 --> 00:04:35.994 understanding themselves has your. 00:04:36.505 --> 00:04:42.035 Like perspective on like how those things work over the years changed 00:04:42.045 --> 00:04:45.825 or I feel like the whole ecosystem has changed in like our thinking of 00:04:45.825 --> 00:04:48.335 like how we live with technology. 00:04:48.745 --> 00:04:49.105 Yeah. 00:04:49.200 --> 00:04:52.910 Janey: Yeah, I think for us, and I think like with like lots of folks 00:04:53.112 --> 00:04:57.112 when we first started Kudoz and then we're moving to Kyrko, I think over 00:04:57.112 --> 00:05:01.042 the years our learning a lot has been around accessibility technology. 00:05:01.252 --> 00:05:04.192 And I think That is often really taken for granted. 00:05:04.362 --> 00:05:08.762 A lot of the accessibility tools, even themselves, or plugins people have on 00:05:08.762 --> 00:05:11.422 their websites, aren't that accessible. 00:05:11.452 --> 00:05:14.962 They require some level of literacy maybe aren't that compatible with 00:05:14.962 --> 00:05:16.422 screen readers, those kinds of things. 00:05:16.472 --> 00:05:20.362 I think for us, we wanted to create something that was not just user 00:05:20.362 --> 00:05:25.312 friendly, but also created a really delightful, joyful experience then would 00:05:25.322 --> 00:05:30.012 be reflective of what types of experiences they might have through utilizing the 00:05:30.012 --> 00:05:34.232 platform and meeting community members and, sharing experience either, with 00:05:34.242 --> 00:05:39.852 podcasting or knitting or kickboxing or brewery tours or whatever was on 00:05:39.852 --> 00:05:42.002 the catalog during that period of time. 00:05:42.272 --> 00:05:44.042 And I think for us during the pandemic. 00:05:44.132 --> 00:05:50.302 just really saw how I think how much people were really isolated, and so 00:05:50.302 --> 00:05:55.827 technology became a real tool to be able to stay connected and so there was a 00:05:55.827 --> 00:06:00.917 number of folks for whom technology was still a barrier, and so spending some time 00:06:00.917 --> 00:06:05.337 to ensure people had the right equipment the right access, that you have stable 00:06:05.357 --> 00:06:09.267 internet connection, and I think those are a lot of things that lots of folks really 00:06:09.267 --> 00:06:13.617 just take for granted, but, we had a lot of that too in the early days of Kudoz, so 00:06:13.617 --> 00:06:15.637 we actually used to have a loaner program. 00:06:16.222 --> 00:06:20.289 Where we would collect, you know, older devices and donations of devices, 00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:25.379 and we would issue them for free to folks because the Kudoz mobile app 00:06:25.379 --> 00:06:27.159 didn't require an internet connection. 00:06:27.159 --> 00:06:31.169 You could use it without, and so that was like a bit of a gateway 00:06:31.169 --> 00:06:34.819 for people to start using technology and then get familiar with it. 00:06:34.929 --> 00:06:37.059 And then a number of those folks actually then went on to get 00:06:37.059 --> 00:06:38.579 their own devices afterwards. 00:06:39.096 --> 00:06:42.026 Raphaël: Oh, cool, there's something like really interesting to think 00:06:42.026 --> 00:06:43.186 about there in that 00:06:43.266 --> 00:06:45.296 I feel like some of those things are possible in the 00:06:45.296 --> 00:06:47.196 context of small tech, right? 00:06:47.196 --> 00:06:51.546 Like things that are very like community driven, that's very focused on connection, 00:06:51.546 --> 00:06:55.531 whereas the big companies are very focused on like the metrics and how many likes 00:06:55.531 --> 00:06:57.951 you get on a thing and that sort of thing. 00:06:57.991 --> 00:06:58.911 I think there's something really 00:06:58.911 --> 00:07:02.191 beautiful in how Curiko, and the 00:07:02.191 --> 00:07:06.801 way that you work with community and really thinking about the people 00:07:06.831 --> 00:07:10.281 as opposed to just the engagement stats or anything like that. 00:07:10.461 --> 00:07:11.061 So I love that. 00:07:11.691 --> 00:07:16.421 I'm curious, is there anything that you found like over the years, either when 00:07:16.421 --> 00:07:22.001 you first got into this or even just over time things that you found surprising as 00:07:22.001 --> 00:07:28.871 you got into building technology, I'm sure there's plenty surprising or unusual or 00:07:28.921 --> 00:07:32.881 yeah, just things that you did not expect as you got into building tech products. 00:07:32.881 --> 00:07:38.651 Janey: Yeah, I think lots of I think just how nuanced usability is, right? 00:07:38.651 --> 00:07:43.301 I think that piece, and I think also just in terms of like, how 00:07:43.301 --> 00:07:45.781 much time things will take, right? 00:07:45.831 --> 00:07:49.901 I think on the surface, it looks like, we create like beautiful designs and 00:07:49.901 --> 00:07:53.911 then Oh, how difficult would it be to implement something like this? 00:07:53.911 --> 00:07:57.701 And then really learning that actually like what is required on the back end 00:07:57.701 --> 00:07:59.281 to make some of those things happen. 00:07:59.501 --> 00:08:02.911 I think like even us having our booking system and developing our 00:08:02.911 --> 00:08:07.991 own bespoke calendar system to fit in with the platform was a lot of 00:08:07.991 --> 00:08:12.561 learning timeline, scope, budget, all that kind of project management stuff. 00:08:12.831 --> 00:08:16.411 And I think how many other tools there are available for us to 00:08:16.411 --> 00:08:18.011 be able to utilize and plug in. 00:08:18.301 --> 00:08:23.271 And also, that a number of those organizations really trying to find 00:08:23.951 --> 00:08:27.961 organizations to work and tools that we utilize that also share our values. 00:08:28.611 --> 00:08:32.191 that was like a big piece too, is that approaching these different places 00:08:32.191 --> 00:08:36.411 and asking them if they had considered how they could make their products 00:08:36.411 --> 00:08:40.121 more accessible to the broader public, especially to smaller non profits 00:08:40.391 --> 00:08:44.791 where, you know, the pricing of some of these plugins or, tools that you 00:08:44.791 --> 00:08:49.121 could utilize are really a barrier for people to be able to engage with. 00:08:49.618 --> 00:08:53.378 Raphaël: yeah, that actually makes me think of a question, accessibility 00:08:53.408 --> 00:08:54.898 means a lot of things, right? 00:08:54.968 --> 00:08:59.118 It can be screen readers, but it can also be just the contrast of text on 00:08:59.118 --> 00:09:03.658 a page, or it can be making sure that the language is accessible to someone. 00:09:03.668 --> 00:09:05.038 It means so many things. 00:09:05.463 --> 00:09:10.093 And how do you think about that in the context of designing a 00:09:10.093 --> 00:09:12.393 product, designing an experience? 00:09:12.493 --> 00:09:16.303 Yeah how do you frame your thinking around, like, all of the different forms 00:09:16.303 --> 00:09:21.563 of accessibility and I guess, yeah, how does that inform, or how do you 00:09:21.563 --> 00:09:24.673 see that reflected in those products that you were just talking about? 00:09:24.693 --> 00:09:27.183 Do they generally consider all of those things? 00:09:27.233 --> 00:09:28.453 Are there some that do better? 00:09:28.463 --> 00:09:30.183 How does that come across? 00:09:30.183 --> 00:09:31.703 Janey: Yeah, that's a great question. 00:09:31.763 --> 00:09:37.753 And I think like also a great question for our UX designers, and Boyd, right? 00:09:37.763 --> 00:09:40.693 Because think they're a big part of I think part of it is our 00:09:40.693 --> 00:09:44.393 own practice and our methods of co design and co production. 00:09:44.923 --> 00:09:50.733 so every time, that Boyd and Raph are working on a new feature they are thinking 00:09:50.733 --> 00:09:54.463 about the accessibility considerations and they're constantly developing and 00:09:54.463 --> 00:09:56.843 testing that with our community members. 00:09:57.183 --> 00:09:58.553 So they're getting feedback. 00:09:58.553 --> 00:10:03.603 And so that is all built into that design process, that we're making 00:10:03.603 --> 00:10:07.703 sure we're not just trying to adhere to the regulatory standards of 00:10:07.703 --> 00:10:11.713 accessibility, how does it actually work for the people that are using it? 00:10:11.983 --> 00:10:14.783 And how does this feel like that is being designed and produced 00:10:15.123 --> 00:10:17.743 alongside of our community members? 00:10:17.763 --> 00:10:22.903 And so I think that's where we gain also the most insights, is that we think oh, 00:10:22.903 --> 00:10:26.143 this looks fine, I think when we were doing some user testing, I was able to 00:10:26.153 --> 00:10:29.983 sit in on some sections sessions, and people were like, oh, they had no idea 00:10:29.983 --> 00:10:34.033 that they needed to scroll down the page to get more information, right? 00:10:34.043 --> 00:10:37.233 Because if you don't have any indicators there, where is that? 00:10:38.228 --> 00:10:42.158 But also in terms of just like people and you know how big certain 00:10:42.158 --> 00:10:44.968 things should be or where certain things are placed so that they don't 00:10:44.968 --> 00:10:48.648 accidentally click the same thing because it's too close to another thing. 00:10:49.178 --> 00:10:53.633 Just those kinds of pieces and so I think for us doing a lot of that those pieces 00:10:53.973 --> 00:10:56.103 those sessions with community members. 00:10:56.133 --> 00:10:57.343 It's been really helpful. 00:10:57.343 --> 00:11:02.220 Raphaël: Yeah awesome and do you find that the tools that you plug into, do 00:11:02.220 --> 00:11:04.210 they generally think about accessibility? 00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:05.350 How do they align? 00:11:05.473 --> 00:11:08.853 Janey: Yeah I'm sure there are some considerations, I think that you 00:11:08.853 --> 00:11:12.603 meantioned contrast, readability, those kinds of things, but I 00:11:12.603 --> 00:11:14.343 think there's definitely barriers. 00:11:14.343 --> 00:11:18.043 There's barriers for me, too, to be able to use some of them, right? 00:11:18.133 --> 00:11:22.903 In particular now that everything has two factor authentication, or 00:11:23.083 --> 00:11:26.553 that you have to be able to use like an SSO to sign on to something. 00:11:26.563 --> 00:11:30.973 Like these are some things that I think are not that can present 00:11:30.983 --> 00:11:33.123 some barriers for folks for sure. 00:11:33.413 --> 00:11:37.413 And I think there's a lot of places where they're like, every site has like an 00:11:37.423 --> 00:11:41.743 FAQ or something like that and some of them are a little bit more robust than 00:11:41.773 --> 00:11:44.513 others or have a short series of videos. 00:11:44.543 --> 00:11:47.803 But I think a lot of them have an assumption that you have some, 00:11:47.853 --> 00:11:54.673 technological knowledge even engaging with some of their tutorials or ways that 00:11:54.683 --> 00:11:58.783 you know, you can help and oftentimes, I'm just trying to reach a live person. 00:12:00.185 --> 00:12:00.555 Raphaël: Yep. 00:12:00.895 --> 00:12:01.895 Do those exist? 00:12:02.605 --> 00:12:02.975 Live 00:12:03.163 --> 00:12:06.013 I feel the internet is just bots now. 00:12:06.675 --> 00:12:10.500 Janey: There's a lot of gatekeeping, I think live people got to do the You've got 00:12:10.500 --> 00:12:12.840 to do a live chat, which is really a bot. 00:12:12.860 --> 00:12:14.520 Then you've got to send the email. 00:12:14.550 --> 00:12:18.030 Then sometimes I have to send a message through social media in some way. 00:12:18.030 --> 00:12:20.680 And then, and usually Hey, can I just talk to somebody? 00:12:20.970 --> 00:12:22.140 takes a bit of steps. 00:12:22.140 --> 00:12:22.600 Yeah. 00:12:22.692 --> 00:12:23.302 Raphaël: Yep. 00:12:23.502 --> 00:12:26.885 That also makes me think of, is there funding specifically 00:12:26.885 --> 00:12:28.915 for accessibility projects? 00:12:28.915 --> 00:12:31.665 Janey: I think for us, we've been really fortunate with 00:12:31.665 --> 00:12:32.835 some of our funding sources. 00:12:32.835 --> 00:12:36.845 We do receive most of our funding from Community Living British Columbia, 00:12:37.165 --> 00:12:42.675 as well as some grants that we've received through either Vancouver 00:12:42.675 --> 00:12:46.775 Foundation, Israeli Foundation, and then also Vancouver Coastal Health. 00:12:46.795 --> 00:12:51.325 And then of course, with the partnership with the the four 00:12:51.325 --> 00:12:55.485 organizations, there's support provided in numerous ways with that. 00:12:55.515 --> 00:13:01.667 And so I think what we found to be a bit tricky is that people, Some places are 00:13:01.667 --> 00:13:09.250 willing to fund the R& D, the development costs, then funding stops, and then 00:13:09.250 --> 00:13:15.820 they don't want to fund implementation and then the ongoing, operations of the 00:13:16.310 --> 00:13:19.240 product, the results of that R& D process. 00:13:19.550 --> 00:13:24.670 And so I think we have also learned from us in this space and you 00:13:24.670 --> 00:13:26.790 do the tech world is that you. 00:13:27.075 --> 00:13:31.145 Have to constantly and consistently invest in the R& D 00:13:31.145 --> 00:13:33.065 because technology is changing. 00:13:33.315 --> 00:13:37.505 Things are changing quite rapidly sometimes and others less but that 00:13:37.505 --> 00:13:42.055 you can't build one thing and then just leave it for, five, six years 00:13:42.305 --> 00:13:46.385 and then revisit it then because, It's been out of date or things aren't 00:13:47.075 --> 00:13:48.895 being as responsive as they need to. 00:13:49.115 --> 00:13:52.975 And I think it's also not being responsive to the changing wants 00:13:52.975 --> 00:13:54.665 and desires of the community. 00:13:54.855 --> 00:13:58.435 And so that has been like a big learning for us in terms of like, how 00:13:58.445 --> 00:14:03.335 do we account for funding and how do we budget for that ongoing R& D piece? 00:14:03.932 --> 00:14:04.372 Raphaël: Yeah. 00:14:04.382 --> 00:14:10.685 That makes a lot of sense with that in mind, in this sort of social impact space 00:14:10.735 --> 00:14:15.175 what tips would you have, for if someone, if a social entrepreneur was listening 00:14:15.175 --> 00:14:19.485 to this and was thinking of building a product to serve their community, what 00:14:19.485 --> 00:14:23.675 are some things that you would advise them to think about when it comes to funding? 00:14:25.250 --> 00:14:26.620 Janey: I think look for. 00:14:26.675 --> 00:14:31.215 Places, organizations that align with your values. 00:14:31.245 --> 00:14:32.855 I think the big piece of it. 00:14:34.035 --> 00:14:39.725 and that really see the longer term vision of what you're trying to achieve. 00:14:40.015 --> 00:14:45.615 I think for us with Curiko, the big part is that, we are trying to build 00:14:45.675 --> 00:14:50.715 a community and build a community of people with and without disabilities and 00:14:50.725 --> 00:14:54.165 challenge Ableism and challenge stigma. 00:14:54.455 --> 00:14:58.845 We had read some recent literature by Tessa Charlesworth that said, at the 00:14:58.845 --> 00:15:03.755 current rate it would take 200 years before disability, internalized disability 00:15:03.755 --> 00:15:10.335 bias was neutralized and that was a shocking stat for us so I think it's to 00:15:10.335 --> 00:15:16.405 try and seek out people that also feel like that is too long and that we've got 00:15:16.415 --> 00:15:18.685 to work together to make headway on that. 00:15:18.685 --> 00:15:22.885 And so I think, being able to find funders that are real allies and are 00:15:22.885 --> 00:15:29.505 real champions and supporters of the vision, and also share those values 00:15:29.555 --> 00:15:34.985 around and around our Curiko values of, building community ensuring 00:15:35.235 --> 00:15:37.525 people are living flourishing lives. 00:15:37.785 --> 00:15:41.675 I think that's the biggest kind of learning us. 00:15:42.552 --> 00:15:43.072 Raphaël: Yeah. 00:15:43.862 --> 00:15:46.702 Is there anything operationally that you would think about? 00:15:46.732 --> 00:15:50.972 As I think even just like funding cycles and stuff like that. 00:15:51.472 --> 00:15:53.592 Janey: I think more money isn't always better. 00:15:54.132 --> 00:15:55.202 think that's the thing, right? 00:15:55.202 --> 00:15:59.012 For us it's, people feel like you need all this money, or you need all 00:15:59.012 --> 00:16:02.562 this capital in order to continue things going, but you can start small. 00:16:02.822 --> 00:16:08.602 And more money means more reporting that you have to be accountable for, and you 00:16:08.602 --> 00:16:12.572 have to be really careful about whether you want to receive that or not, and does 00:16:12.572 --> 00:16:18.277 that add to your kind of vision and the strategy that you have moving forward. 00:16:18.287 --> 00:16:22.097 Does it adhere with your values or is it going to sway you away from it? 00:16:22.367 --> 00:16:28.157 And oftentimes, you will try and contort yourself to fit a particular funding guide 00:16:28.187 --> 00:16:32.847 template or funding guide regulations or all of those kinds of things and then 00:16:32.987 --> 00:16:36.537 you need to then figure out how you're going to report on those additional pieces 00:16:36.677 --> 00:16:42.227 to your funders, which then creates not just, I think, more work, but it also 00:16:42.377 --> 00:16:49.117 creates the wrong kind of work, that's not who we're really wanting to prioritize. 00:16:49.397 --> 00:16:54.439 We're wanting to prioritize community not just, a checkbox on a funding report. 00:16:54.846 --> 00:16:55.196 Raphaël: Yep. 00:16:55.326 --> 00:16:56.696 I think that makes a lot of sense. 00:16:56.736 --> 00:17:01.876 I've heard of people in just broader sort of startup space, also talking 00:17:01.886 --> 00:17:03.656 about things like R& D funding. 00:17:04.126 --> 00:17:07.486 And how it moves them off course, instead of serving their customers, 00:17:07.486 --> 00:17:09.126 they're serving the funders. 00:17:09.266 --> 00:17:09.456 Janey: Yeah. 00:17:09.456 --> 00:17:12.516 I that, I think part of that is in the power structure, right? 00:17:12.596 --> 00:17:15.366 Is that inevitably when somebody is giving you money in a large 00:17:15.366 --> 00:17:18.626 portion of money you feel like, oh, I've got to align with that. 00:17:18.626 --> 00:17:24.726 But I think choosing funders that are also prioritizing the right like the community 00:17:24.726 --> 00:17:29.346 members, the people for whom your product or your intervention or your service 00:17:29.346 --> 00:17:31.476 or whatever you're developing is for. 00:17:31.743 --> 00:17:33.233 Raphaël: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 00:17:33.343 --> 00:17:40.413 How does the broader sort of program design and how does that intersect 00:17:40.863 --> 00:17:47.473 with specifically the tech product and the different stakeholders, funders, 00:17:47.483 --> 00:17:50.973 the team, admin team, and the users. 00:17:51.123 --> 00:17:54.093 And I guess, there must be others too, but those I feel are the sort of 00:17:54.103 --> 00:17:56.153 three that I generally think about. 00:17:56.468 --> 00:17:58.428 But how do those things all come together? 00:17:58.438 --> 00:18:02.198 And are there what are the tensions that you find most I don't know, that 00:18:02.618 --> 00:18:05.158 pop up on the most regular basis? 00:18:05.268 --> 00:18:06.238 And how do you handle them? 00:18:06.238 --> 00:18:09.458 Janey: I feel like we're in a pretty good place with that in of 00:18:09.508 --> 00:18:12.748 we have really great funders that I think allow a lot of freedom and 00:18:12.748 --> 00:18:14.578 flexibility in the development. 00:18:14.918 --> 00:18:20.238 I think what happens with community and the tech sometimes is our community 00:18:20.238 --> 00:18:26.116 members, are really wide ranging we'll do some testing with some folks, and 00:18:26.166 --> 00:18:29.826 usability of a particular feature, some things might come up, but then it 00:18:29.876 --> 00:18:33.076 doesn't come up, like something else comes up with a different segment of 00:18:33.076 --> 00:18:36.756 users, and then a different segment of users, and so for us on our side, it's 00:18:36.756 --> 00:18:42.526 like which direction do we go in which segment of users are you prioritizing? 00:18:42.756 --> 00:18:46.336 And is there a bit of a happy medium, if you were to about like the Venn 00:18:46.346 --> 00:18:50.566 diagram, the circle, like where's the overlap of all three, and what's 00:18:50.566 --> 00:18:53.996 like an elegant solution that could meet the desires of all of them. 00:18:53.996 --> 00:18:56.656 But I think for us, it's also understanding you can't always 00:18:56.716 --> 00:18:58.506 make everything work for everybody. 00:18:58.906 --> 00:18:59.706 And so it's. 00:19:00.116 --> 00:19:03.946 Trying to really understand what's working for whom, when, what's 00:19:03.946 --> 00:19:07.636 not, and then using that learning to then move into development. 00:19:08.078 --> 00:19:08.568 Raphaël: Yeah. 00:19:08.671 --> 00:19:09.161 Cool. 00:19:09.401 --> 00:19:11.391 I feel like I had another question on that. 00:19:11.791 --> 00:19:13.491 So Curiko there's 00:19:13.491 --> 00:19:14.471 a lot of stuff. 00:19:14.611 --> 00:19:18.841 I think we at EC are very focused on like the thing that shows up on the screen, 00:19:19.358 --> 00:19:21.268 but there's so much more than that. 00:19:21.548 --> 00:19:27.031 There's the sort of the in person experiences and events and the actual 00:19:27.031 --> 00:19:33.040 like community itself, like the, Managing those relationships between people. 00:19:33.093 --> 00:19:33.373 Yeah. 00:19:33.373 --> 00:19:37.683 Could you talk a bit more about how those relationships, how you build 00:19:37.683 --> 00:19:43.493 them, how do you build trust and how all of those things come back to product? 00:19:43.581 --> 00:19:46.661 Janey: Yeah, so we've got a number of roles on the team 00:19:46.961 --> 00:19:49.471 that are community facing roles. 00:19:49.481 --> 00:19:56.861 So we have a curation team that works with hosts to build experiences, put 00:19:56.861 --> 00:20:02.221 them up on the platform, works with hosts on And ongoing sort of engagement with 00:20:02.231 --> 00:20:07.411 those experiences, offer any coaching or troubleshooting if things might come up. 00:20:08.191 --> 00:20:13.541 And then we've got coaches and coaches work with folks that are engaging 00:20:13.541 --> 00:20:16.101 with the community as participants. 00:20:16.126 --> 00:20:21.886 And who might want some coaching around facing a particular barrier and building 00:20:21.886 --> 00:20:27.456 strategies and then we have, of course, like our volunteer moderators that support 00:20:27.466 --> 00:20:31.666 hosts with online experiences to make sure they run smooth so that the host can 00:20:31.666 --> 00:20:35.171 really focus on an experience and not have to worry about the technical aspects of 00:20:35.171 --> 00:20:39.461 the running and alongside of all those roles also comes a series of, as you 00:20:39.461 --> 00:20:44.701 mentioned, in person interactions outside of those experiences and building the 00:20:44.701 --> 00:20:49.836 relationship and building community and so really we utilize the Curiko platform 00:20:49.886 --> 00:20:56.136 as a tool to support many of those ongoing interactions and relationships. 00:20:56.466 --> 00:21:00.616 And so I think that's we're often have this conversation of does do we feel 00:21:00.616 --> 00:21:05.576 like the platform reflects how do we make more of our community voices or 00:21:05.586 --> 00:21:07.886 stories be shared through the platform? 00:21:07.886 --> 00:21:10.706 And that's where we're always constantly like iterating. 00:21:10.706 --> 00:21:14.526 And right now we're working on redoing a little bit of the homepage and things 00:21:14.526 --> 00:21:17.786 like that, so that we're able to include some of the things that we feel like 00:21:18.006 --> 00:21:23.296 are not being shown as much as we'd like it to currently on the website. 00:21:23.753 --> 00:21:24.073 Raphaël: Yep. 00:21:24.413 --> 00:21:25.183 That makes sense. 00:21:25.673 --> 00:21:28.053 I feel like that covers most of my questions. 00:21:28.053 --> 00:21:29.903 Is there anything else you want to talk about 00:21:29.903 --> 00:21:31.133 with Curiko or 00:21:31.243 --> 00:21:33.683 any final tips or learnings or anything? 00:21:33.683 --> 00:21:34.903 Janey: Oh, final tips and learning. 00:21:35.183 --> 00:21:38.103 There's always learning to be had, sure. 00:21:38.373 --> 00:21:39.483 like a real journey. 00:21:39.703 --> 00:21:44.243 I would just encourage your users if they want to check it out, it's curiko.ca 00:21:44.263 --> 00:21:46.183 it's open and free to everybody. 00:21:46.393 --> 00:21:51.133 It is really a place for people that are wanting and looking for different ways to 00:21:51.143 --> 00:21:55.773 connect either with themselves or other people or places or culture you name it. 00:21:55.823 --> 00:21:58.693 Yeah, I think it's just an open space and I think for us, it's 00:21:58.693 --> 00:22:04.733 like constantly reflecting on how we can utilize Curiko and tech, 00:22:05.413 --> 00:22:09.943 build and foster these meaningful connections within our community. 00:22:10.500 --> 00:22:11.090 Raphaël: Amazing. 00:22:11.670 --> 00:22:15.010 So last question, \ small tech product that you use that does 00:22:15.010 --> 00:22:16.070 something good in your life. 00:22:17.723 --> 00:22:18.193 Janey: Yeah. 00:22:18.193 --> 00:22:23.813 I was thinking about it and I was like I use some, this Seesaw app, and it is an 00:22:23.823 --> 00:22:30.293 app That I think schools use to be able to give parents a little bit of a snapshot 00:22:30.503 --> 00:22:35.603 of what happens over the course of a day or a project in their child's life. 00:22:35.603 --> 00:22:40.153 And so I have a little nine year old, and so I'm able to, And you can also through 00:22:40.153 --> 00:22:46.113 the app see photos of what he's doing or working on or who he's spending time with. 00:22:46.363 --> 00:22:51.183 And that's been a great point of, shared conversation with us, because at the end 00:22:51.183 --> 00:22:54.793 of the day, oftentimes when you ask your Your child, what, what did you do today? 00:22:54.793 --> 00:22:55.533 Or how did things go? 00:22:55.693 --> 00:22:56.783 always was good. 00:22:57.313 --> 00:23:00.203 so you get varying details of things that happen. 00:23:00.203 --> 00:23:04.253 And so I think for me, the Seesaw app helps me stay connected with 00:23:04.253 --> 00:23:06.283 what's happening in his day to day. 00:23:06.283 --> 00:23:09.893 And to be able to, if I go back to the old reflection, it's to be able 00:23:09.893 --> 00:23:12.963 to help them also reflect and be like, Oh, what did you learn from that? 00:23:12.963 --> 00:23:14.873 Or how did you feel when you were doing that? 00:23:14.873 --> 00:23:16.433 Or who are you spending time with? 00:23:16.433 --> 00:23:18.573 And so that helps us stay connected. 00:23:18.915 --> 00:23:19.535 Raphaël: That's awesome. 00:23:19.915 --> 00:23:20.255 Cool. 00:23:20.255 --> 00:23:20.785 Alrighty. 00:23:20.835 --> 00:23:21.275 Thank you 00:23:21.275 --> 00:23:22.175 so much, Janey. 00:23:22.175 --> 00:23:22.905 Janey: Thank you. 00:23:23.577 --> 00:23:24.057 Raphaël: Folks. 00:23:24.087 --> 00:23:27.787 That was my chat with Janey Roh from Curiko. 00:23:27.807 --> 00:23:31.917 And I so appreciate her taking the time to chat with me. 00:23:31.917 --> 00:23:33.847 It was an amazing conversation. 00:23:33.847 --> 00:23:35.527 I hope you all learned something from it. 00:23:36.047 --> 00:23:39.257 That is it from the small tech podcast this time around. 00:23:39.287 --> 00:23:42.457 And we will see you in the next episode, in the meantime, we all want 00:23:42.457 --> 00:23:43.537 to do something good in the world. 00:23:43.537 --> 00:23:45.517 So go out there and build something. 00:23:45.547 --> 00:23:46.477 Good folks. 00:23:46.537 --> 00:23:46.997 See ya.