[00:00:00] Antony Whitaker: Hey, it's Antony Whitaker here and welcome to today's episode of the Grow My Salon Business podcast. And whether this is your first time or perhaps you're a regular listener, thank you for tuning into today's show. Now, in case you don't already know, video versions of our podcast are also now available on our YouTube channel.
[00:00:20] Antony Whitaker: So if you want to put faces to the names, then head on over to Grow My Salon Business on YouTube. And don't forget to like, and subscribe to the channel. So with that said, on with today's episode. When you've been in this industry a long time, you'll not only see trends and businesses come and go, but you will inevitably also see people come and go.
[00:00:41] Antony Whitaker: Sometimes it's because they've reached a point where they want to hang up their blow dryer for good, and other times it's to pursue other interests, either within the industry or elsewhere But longevity as a hairdresser, remaining relevant throughout your career is not only a skill in itself, but if you can remain passionate and keep evolving with the times, the result is that you build up a range of skills that leave you with a fantastic legacy to pass on to the generations that follow.
[00:01:11] Antony Whitaker: My guest today is one such person. Ruth Roche has had many roles in the industry and over a 40-year career, she has done all of them well and continues to inspire hairdressers at every stage of their career and certainly shows no stage of letting up just yet. So welcome to the show, Ruth Roche.
[00:01:32] Ruth Roche: Oh my God, thank you so much for having me, Antony. I'm so excited. It's an honor.
[00:01:37] Antony Whitaker: No, I'm excited as well. I mean, we were having a little bit of a chat before we push the record button and, um, neither of us, uh, are new at this. Um, you know, I interviewed you, we were just trying to put a date on it and we decided it was somewhere in the nineties. So I can remember then you were this new, young, fresh faced, you know, presenter in the industry.
[00:02:00] Antony Whitaker: Um, You know, out there treading the boards and doing a fantastic job. And who would have thought here we are 30 something years later. Um, and we're doing it again. So, you know, it's been a long time between drinks. That's for sure.
[00:02:15] Ruth Roche: A long time between drinks.
[00:02:17] Antony Whitaker: Yeah.
[00:02:18] Ruth Roche: That's too long.
[00:02:19] Antony Whitaker: Do you not use that expression?
[00:02:21] Ruth Roche: I've never heard that.
[00:02:22] Antony Whitaker: Oh, right. Maybe it's, uh, maybe it's one of my, um, Australian expressions
[00:02:27] Ruth Roche: I like it
[00:02:28] Antony Whitaker: that I picked up, along the way. A long time between drinks. So, yeah, whatever it is, you know, 35 years is a long time. And you know, when I think of you, I think of humor. Because you were one of the first people that I ever saw on stage because most people don't do it because I suppose most people are not naturally funny.
[00:02:50] Antony Whitaker: But I saw you on stage and this was in Sydney, you know, in the 90s, I think sometime mid to late 90s. And you use. self-depreciating humor and you use it really, really well. So I wanted to ask you straight off the bat, have you always been funny or is this something that you worked on developing as part of your sort of shtick or what?
[00:03:16] Ruth Roche: No. I think shit just happens to me, you know what I mean? And I never can plan it, you know, sometimes I'll have a story that I've told before that I'll tell because I know it's a funny story and it makes people laugh and it makes sense to tell it, but, um, for the most part, I just let it happen. Let it roll.
[00:03:35] Ruth Roche: And because I'm a klutz, because I can't remember what I'm talking about because of, you know, whatever, um, things happen. I trip, I drop stuff, you know, everything shakes on the stage while I'm walking by. So there's, you know. Just things like that, that I go, Oh my God,
[00:03:53] Antony Whitaker: So none of that, none of that is part of your act.
[00:03:57] Ruth Roche: no, the only thing that was part of my act was this alter ego person that I had.
[00:04:03] Ruth Roche: Yeah. She was an act, but even her, she was, she was, um, did not have a script.
[00:04:10] Antony Whitaker: Right. And who was she? Now I'm, I'm, we're going back a long time. I'm thinking it was some sort of valley girl or something
[00:04:17] Ruth Roche: Yeah. her name was Judi.
[00:04:21] Antony Whitaker: Judi. Yeah,
[00:04:22] Ruth Roche: Judi, because when I was little, my sister's best friend's name was Judi and she had really long, straight hair. And I thought, that's who I want to be when I grew up. I want to be Judi. So Judi was, and it's J U D I with a heart over the eye. It's not a regular eye, you know,
[00:04:38] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. Of
[00:04:39] Ruth Roche: and she had.
[00:04:41] Ruth Roche: She thought she had her finger on the pulse of everything that was like in the know, you know ahead of the curve you know inspirational to everyone motivational to everyone and and She was she would say things like, you know, I just want to thank all of my fans for being here You know because you are really the reason that I you are the wind beneath my wings, you know stuff like that just stupid You know, and it got to where I had people, I would sometimes go out on a stage and someone would go, where's Judi, you know, and it was just, she became this, she was a hairdresser too, you know, but she always got overwhelmed.
[00:05:22] Ruth Roche: By the time she got out there to do hair, she got overwhelmed because everyone was staring at her. So she'd have to leave.
[00:05:28] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. Okay. So you, you could just, you could just flip in and out of these different sort of personalities and be Ruth Roche a bit more serious. And then this alter ego, uh, Judi character. That, that was, yeah, that was good. I mean, it really worked. Did that, did that work everywhere? I
[00:05:47] Ruth Roche: Yeah.
[00:05:48] Antony Whitaker: cause, cause humor is different in different countries.
[00:05:50] Ruth Roche: Yeah. In Australia, I was afraid it wasn't going to work. As a matter of fact, I had someone say, don't do Judi there. And I was like, I have to do Judi, you know, so Judi actually was a big hit down there because she. She was talking about how she's been preparing to come to Australia and she's been, you know, to go down under.
[00:06:10] Ruth Roche: So she's been hanging out underneath like tables and stuff to see what it feels like, you know, stupid shit.
[00:06:19] Ruth Roche: Yeah.
[00:06:19] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. Okay. Um, being a presenter and I'm going to talk, you know, about your different roles in the industry, but you know, whether it's humor or not, communication is a really important skill and obviously you're a very competent hairdresser as well. We're going to talk about that too, but how consciously did you work on the communication side of things because, you know, there's a lot of people that would be great at doing here.
[00:06:47] Antony Whitaker: They'll come out on stage and I'll do something great, but they don't bring it to life or they don't sort of engage with the audience. I don't bring anything to it other than I'm good with my hands. So, you know, did you have to work at, you know, communication or was it just who you were naturally that you've just always been a pretty solid communicator?
[00:07:06] Ruth Roche: I have an analytical thinker, but in chaotic ways. So I, I love to be able to explain something in different, many different ways so that. You know, and a lot of it is visual analogies that I'll use, or, you know, just an analogy in general that has no, no technical words inside of it. It's just. To help people relate it to something that they already know really well, you know?
[00:07:37] Ruth Roche: So I feel like that's something that I was natural as far as like being able to talk like that. But the, but I did learn a lot of skills to engage and keep people engaged when I was working with Redken. So, and how to get an audience to interact with you, um, how to keep it alive for them. You know, and keep their energy up those kinds of things.
[00:08:03] Ruth Roche: I learned when I was with redken and the training that I got there.
[00:08:07] Antony Whitaker: Okay. Well, I'm going to put you on the spot then and ask you what, what would one thing be? You know, if you, if a young hairdresser who wants to get on platform, uh, you know, and do show work and have an audience in front of them, but they're terrified of that component, um, as much as they might want it, what's one tip you would give them to make it easier?
[00:08:28] Ruth Roche: here's a simple 1. you know, if you ask an audience a question. Even in a class, it works in a class. It works in a big thing. If it's a huge audience, that's different. Um, it's, that's more like you're presenting, right? If it's like 10, 000 hairdressers or a thousand hairdressers, but you can do something like, you know, by round of applause, how many of you have, you know, cut your finger when you're doing a bob, you know, something like that.
[00:08:56] Ruth: And, or you could say hands up if you have cut your finger doing a bob, or, you know, if you've cut your finger doing a bob, say yes. You know, and then they, they repeat back to you. So you're getting people to participate energetically and be present and, and make it feel more personal. Like you're talking just to that one person as opposed to you guys, you guys, you guys, you know, raise your hand if you have blah, blah, blah.
[00:09:21] Antony Whitaker: So, so create some engagement,
[00:09:24] Ruth Roche: Yeah. You,
[00:09:24] Antony Whitaker: create some participation. Yeah.
[00:09:27] Ruth Roche: because it's easy to get, especially when you're freaking out and you're nervous to shut down and think nobody likes me. I'm going to, you know, like, I'm just going to keep it to my, you know, and I'm just going to keep getting through this and you start to become a monologue. You want it to be a conversation, you know?
[00:09:42] Ruth Roche: So it can, it, there are tools and techniques that, that people use and that's some of them to do that,
[00:09:49] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, that's good. That's good. I like that. Okay. So, um, we've sort of touched on a little bit already. Uh, you mentioned red, can you mention Trevor? Uh, lot of people, you know, don't necessarily know who Trevor is. So when we talk about Trevor it’s Trevor Sorbie. Uh, but I know you've had a very Diverse career. Um, I did a little bit of research and I don't know if I've got all these in the right order.
[00:10:11] Antony Whitaker: Uh, but I know you were a pivot point educator at some point. You worked for Trevor Sorbie. You've been a product company ambassador. You mentioned Redken a minute ago. Um, you've been a solo educator, a celebrity stylist, an editorial stylist. You've also even been a salon owner, which is interesting. Um, what I wanted to ask you about is, is what, what do you What drives you?
[00:10:33] Antony Whitaker: What keeps you moving? Where do you feel the most comfortable? You know, are you looking for something? Is that why you keep jumping from one thing to the next? Yeah,
[00:10:47] Ruth Roche: I have to keep stimulated. You know, and I think, and I also don't want to miss out on anything. So I'm like, Oh, I want to do that too. You know, or I want to do, you know, like I, I've never limited  myself by thinking, Oh, I can't do that. You know, um, because especially if someone tells me I can't do that, then I'm like, Oh yeah.
[00:11:08] Ruth Roche: Oh yeah. Well watch this, you know, um, because I don't want to miss out. I want to experience everything that I have that little excitement in my heart about. And, um, and do it. So now, but what I'm looking for now in my career is a way of leaving my legacy for the industry, you know, I'm not going anywhere, I'm not retiring or anything, but this next, you know, 15 years or so, what am I, what do I want to do?
[00:11:40] Ruth Roche: And what I do want to do is, is carry on the things that I learned. That nobody's teaching, like how to make hair look like plastic or how to, you know, like, and it's, it's, uh, and, and helping other people to, to believe in their ideas and MacGyver them and figure them out, meaning how to get, how to create what you're imagining or what you want to see.
[00:12:07] Ruth Roche: If you have no idea how to work with. Wigs, hair pieces, anything like that. Um, a lot of the work I do for the North American Hairstyling Awards and the session work and the photographic stuff is crazy. 
[00:12:22] Ruth Roche:  So I think not everyone believes they are creative. And I think that's bullshit. I think that, um, Everyone has creative thoughts, they just don't realize it and they might be creative with numbers. It might be creative, you know, in a different way. Um, but people that do hair, I find. Are doing what they already see, they're doing things they've already seen.
[00:12:49] Ruth Roche: And my goal before I leave this earth is that we get a, of, uh, an influx of new talent doing. Stuff that no one's seen before. So that's my thing is like right now I have a mentorship program called vision craft. It's six months and I've got people in it that the goal by the end of it is that they have a collection that they can shoot for award ceremonies, you know, for whatever.
[00:13:15] Ruth Roche: So, um, and then they can shoot it if they want in the next step. But it's basically helping people get from nothing to a physical, tangible. Collection that they've created with their own hands that came from their imagination or something, you know, else, but basically bringing it to life, making it happen, and then capturing it on film forever.
[00:13:37] Ruth Roche: And so my that's kind of my thing is like, okay, I want to be able to pass all this crazy stuff on to the next generations and leave it and make stop having secrets. You know what I mean? Like, This is the man behind the curtain. This is what's going on here. And what that will do, I hope, is it will, it'll start this sort of competition or thing to keep pushing yourself to do something you haven't seen before, you know, cause I, and I'm not saying this to be a jerk, but I feel like a lot of what we see.
[00:14:14] Ruth Roche: In that um, competition arena of photographic work is the same, you know, it's a lot of the same thing. So I just think it'd be fun to just say, Hey, here's, here's some people that are shaking it up and doing something different.
[00:14:27] Antony Whitaker: yeah, good, good, okay. 
[00:14:30] Antony Whitaker: So one of the things I often think about with hairdressers, I mean, you know, myself being a hairdresser as well, is, you know, going from doing what I call hairdresser hair, So, you know, you've been on stage, you do hairdresser hair to sort of entertain and wow a hairdressing audience and that's very different to doing salon hair and that's very different to doing editorial hair for magazine shoots and stuff and you sort of jump between all of them and that's a skill in itself because a lot of people they have their niche and that's what they're known for and they focus on it.
[00:15:07] Antony Whitaker: You seem to have floated through, you know, different parts of your professional journey and you've dipped in and out of all of those different things, is that because You were looking for something. Was it because you didn't believe in what you were doing at one level and wanted to, you know, take it in another direction, maybe a more fashion direction or or not?
[00:15:30] Antony Whitaker: Yeah.
[00:15:33] Ruth Roche: about fashion and, um, shooting because when I was with Trevor, I used to assist him at shoots. And those were more like hairdresser hair shoots, you know, for the industry. Um, and then I, when I was living in New York, cause that's where I was most of my adult life. And that's why I moved there is because I knew if I wanted to get really get into that world of fashion and celebrities and dah, dah, dah, dah, you know, that was where I would need to be. 
[00:16:00] Ruth Roche: Um, And so I had done enough shooting with my, with the industry stuff that I did right in the beginning that I had enough to put a portfolio together to take to an agency. However, if anybody's interested, who's listening and doing, you know, editorial and like, uh, commercial type of stuff, you have to. Get rid of most of the stuff in your portfolio if you're doing weird shit for awards.
[00:16:30] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, totally.
[00:16:31] Ruth Roche: they want to know you can do a perfect ponytail. You know, they want to know that you can do beautiful wearable hair, you know, that's natural, lived in, in general. And then, you know, your editorial or more advanced skills or more edgy stuff still has to have It can't be so over the top that no one would ever, ever wear it.
[00:16:56] Ruth Roche: You know, it has to be believable. And so I think what was cool is that I got that experience of doing the, the. The, the stronger, you know, Avant Garde stuff with Trevor. And so I could, I could do things with hair that maybe someone else couldn't do, but I could do it in a way that it worked for the situation.
[00:17:17] Ruth Roche: If it was an editorial spread or whatever, I might get there sooner, you know, have a different, uh, approach to it because I had learned all the other stuff.
[00:17:27] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. Yeah. I love asking people like yourself. Um, How would you define beauty? And how would you define suitability? There's two different things. Um, and I'd just love to get your, your insight on that. What do you think about when you think about a definition of beauty and a definition of suitability?
[00:17:49] Ruth Roche: oh, okay. So suitability, I would say is um, When you look at someone, they, it looks like their hair is just a part of them, as opposed to a hairstyle that's put on them.
[00:18:08] Antony Whitaker: Okay.
[00:18:09] Ruth Roche: so that could mean the way that they style it, it could mean where the layers start, you know, where does it open up on their face? What part of them is it, is it showing? So, um, you know, instead of looking at a hairstyle, putting it on them, create it from them, what you see on them, that kind of thing.
[00:18:29] Ruth Roche: So that it's, it also is something they're going to, if they're not going to style it, then they're not going to style it, you know, like, which makes me really mad. But that's how they are,
[00:18:39] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, exactly.
[00:18:40] Ruth Roche: you know, and then beauty, um, beauty to me is. It's so, I know it's corny, but it's in the eye of the beholder. Right.
[00:18:50] Antony Whitaker: yeah, yeah,
[00:18:50] Ruth Roche: I think there are things that we all think are beautiful, you know, that you can't argue like that is beautiful.
[00:18:57] Ruth Roche: Um, but to me, it's something that makes my mind rest, you know, that gives me peace because you just want to stop and take it in and enjoy it. So whether that's a, uh, A moment captured in film on film, or it's, uh, it's the way someone's hair sits right here on their cheek, you know, that just makes a certain part of them come alive, you know, and to me, it's more natural as opposed to forced.
[00:19:29] Ruth Roche: But then you can, you know, something could be very, very contrived, like old Hollywood glamour and it's beautiful.
[00:19:37] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. Yeah. Have you had any sort of defining moments in your career that have, you know, along these lines of understanding beauty, like I've, I've spoken to a lot of editorial hairdressers over these podcasts and it's interesting how some of them will talk about a defining moment with a fashion designer or a photographer who has made them look at something in a certain way.
[00:20:03] Antony Whitaker: Um, And it's, it's just really been a, you know, a turning point for them in terms of understanding what beauty is and what fashion is and being able to look at something in a different way. Have you ever had a defining moment like that? Heaven
[00:20:20] Ruth Roche: just said that, but, um, photographers for sure, because they see something that you don't. You know, now we can see it instantly on the screen because it's digital capture and we can look at it and all that as we go. But, you know, back in the day, it was a Polaroid and then you just went for it and you didn't know what you got till you got the film, you know, now we can be a part of that process and see, oh, that's not a good angle.
[00:20:47] Ruth Roche: Let me try, you know, or that's the best angle of the hair. Let's keep going with that. Or sometimes what I think is good, the photographer doesn't. Because of all the other factors I'm not paying attention to, like, you know, anything, their facial expression, their clothes are wrinkled. There's, you know, there's something hanging out wrong or whatever.
[00:21:11] Ruth Roche: And what is that? So anyway, they, um, you know, they can, and then when you see it on a fit on film, you okay. Okay.
[00:21:24] Antony Whitaker: I was just thinking about Judi and I was thinking does Judi still rear her head on occasion?
[00:21:29] Ruth Roche: Yeah. Yes.
[00:21:30] Antony Whitaker: in the wrong place.
[00:21:33] Ruth Roche: I did it at my birthday party with my family because I had a microphone. We had live entertainment and I grabbed it and I was like, I just want to thank all of my fans for being here. You can all sit down now. And they were already sitting down.
[00:21:47] Antony Whitaker: Right. Okay. Uh, yeah. Move on.
[00:21:53] Ruth Roche: yeah. So, um, So photographers, I, you know, like, and then when you get all the film back and you're looking at all the shots, like I'm trying to pick the best ones, I let them pick first,
[00:22:08] Antony Whitaker: Mm.
[00:22:09] Ruth Roche: what are the best shots, not what's the best hair.
[00:22:14] Antony Whitaker: Mm.
[00:22:15] Ruth Roche: And then I, then I pick mine from there because they're looking at the whole image and everything that's in it.
[00:22:22] Ruth Roche: And I'm just looking at the hair. So sometimes that means I'm picking one that I don't think the hair looks as good. But once I analyze what they're talking about, I see that they're right. You know?
[00:22:34] Antony Whitaker: I've had that experience. I know, I know exactly what you mean. Um, you, you mentioned, well, we've both mentioned it, uh, Trevor Sorbie, uh, Vivian Mackinder. Um, you know, these are two real heavyweights in the world of hairdressing over the last 40, 50 years, and you've worked very closely with both of them.
[00:22:54] Antony Whitaker: If you had to look back at, at your time with both of them, um, is there a particular lesson that you would go, you know, if there's one thing I got from Trevor, it's this, or if there's one thing I got from Vivian, it's that. Is there anything that you'd really, you know, like to sort of pull out and, and, uh, underline as being an important lesson?
[00:23:15] Ruth Roche: with Vivian, I really learned touch, you know, like touching the hair and getting your hands involved with it more than just manipulating with a brush or a comb or whatever. Um, and. I always this I can hear her saying it right now, you know, never rest on your laurels like you're only as good as your last haircut, you know, which is kind of harsh, but,
[00:23:44] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, yeah,
[00:23:45] Ruth Roche: you know, it is, but it's, but it's what it says to me is like, don't get don't settle for less.
[00:23:53] Ruth Roche: Most importantly for yourself, you know, like if you're not in love with it, why are you letting it be that way? You know, like make it better, change it, do something. And then with Trevor, it's, it's some of that as well, you know? Um, but I think with what he taught me is to really push to do things that. Are not ordinary, you know, that are not seen yet to surprise people.
[00:24:24] Ruth Roche: You know, like that's when I think of Trevor, I think of he always just created these, these magical things. So people go, wow. You know, whether it was a show with choreography and dancers that went from like, you know, uh, Marie Antoinette to punk in like three seconds or whatever, it was just, It's always surprising people and, Oh, I know what he said, um, you always have to make something look believable, even if it's the weirdest thing and it's not, you know, it's not natural walking down the street hair.
[00:25:02] Ruth Roche: It still looks like it could have been their hair.
[00:25:05] Antony Whitaker: mm.
[00:25:06] Ruth Roche: that, that element of make it believable in some way so that you're really playing with people's minds and visual. You know, interpretations of what you're looking at.
[00:25:17] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, yeah. You were very lucky to, you know, have
[00:25:21] Ruth Roche: I am so lucky. I have, I am so lucky that I had the teachers that I did. You know, I, I just can't get over it sometimes, you know, 40 years this year, I've been doing hair.
[00:25:33] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, yeah. Long time. Um, we mentioned earlier salon. I never would have picked you as being someone who'd go and open a salon. So, so what made you do that? How long did you have it? And, uh, yeah, talk to us about the salon time.
[00:25:49] Ruth Roche: Well, I had the salon, but originally when I, when I left Redken, I wanted to do my own academy. So advanced academy, you know, for hairdressers that are already licensed and all that and so my first class, When I left Redken was September 9th, 10th and 11th, 2001. So it was September 11th when I had my first, I left Redken, I left this big contract, I was like, I'm going to do my own thing, you know, blah, blah, blah.
[00:26:19] Ruth Roche: And I was kind of a little bit burned out on all the travel. So I was like, I'm going to do this now. And, um, And then I had my finally got my first class out of the gate and 9 11 happened and it was like, oh, no, you know, like I've made this huge mistake. No one wants to travel. No, no one wants to come to New York.
[00:26:40] Ruth Roche: You
[00:26:40] Antony Whitaker: was, was that in New York?
[00:26:41] Ruth Roche: yeah, I was there.
[00:26:42] Antony Whitaker: in New York, right? Okay. Yeah.
[00:26:45] Ruth Roche: So I, I did that for 2 years and kind of built it back up, but I just rented a space. When I needed it, then I, and I was going to open a space that was my academy, but I gave, gave up trying to find one because I just, I just wasn't finding what I, what I wanted or dealing with people that knew what I was trying to do.
[00:27:05] Ruth Roche: So, uh, I gave up and then I was walking down the street one day in Tribeca and came across this space. And it was one of those moments where it was like, my heart just went boom. And this was, I said, this is it right here. This is the space. It's going to be my salon and my academy. So I didn't have a clientele.
[00:27:25] Ruth Roche: I opened a salon with no clients,
[00:27:27] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. Downtown New York.
[00:27:28] Ruth Roche: like a dummy, but I had, yeah, I had to have one person that had a clientele. But, um, I, and I didn't hire anyone with a clientele. I started people right from school because I didn't want to have any bad habits and weirdness and you know, any of that stuff. So I built it up and sold it eight years later and I wouldn't, I do not regret it.
[00:27:55] Ruth Roche: You know, it was amazing. The people that. That stuck that stayed with me are like some of my best friends now, and we live all over the country and, um, like some of them just came to my 60th birthday party. You know, and they all have like families and kids and I knew them when they were like, just out of school and all that.
[00:28:14] Ruth Roche: So that's pretty cool. That's, that's, that was pretty amazing to feel that feeling of seeing them all together and getting our picture taken together after so many years, because it's been about. 20 years since I opened the salon and I had it for eight. So, so yeah, that's why I opened a salon because I found the space and I wanted a place for my academy.
[00:28:37] Ruth Roche: So I thought, you know, a salon and an academy would make more income than just an academy.
[00:28:42] Antony Whitaker: yeah, so, so was it, did you end up using it as an academy as well, or no one wanted to come to New York?
[00:28:49] Ruth Roche: yeah, no, I did. It took a while, but cause by the time I opened the salon, it was 2003. So, and then I had it till 2011 and I sold it to one of my employees. Okay.
[00:29:02] Antony Whitaker: um,
[00:29:02] Ruth Roche: Um, who had been doing hair for three years, she bought my salon.
[00:29:06] Antony Whitaker: yeah, good, okay,
[00:29:08] Ruth Roche: I was very lucky.
[00:29:09] Antony Whitaker: yeah, so learning curve for you, I mean you were very much focused on the creative side of things, um, and, um, How did you, how did you transition into all of a sudden being a business owner and having to employ people and pay people and all that? I mean, did you do that yourself
[00:29:24] Ruth Roche: No way. I had, I have friends that are great friends to this day that are business people that helped me put systems in place to help me, um, set up the interview process, the, you know, how to narrow down who the right people are. Um, you know, all the things you don't know that you don't know, you know, That, I mean, I was, uh, one of those friends was just here for my birthday and he, someone gave an hour of his time to me for a gift because I was completely freaking out.
[00:29:57] Ruth Roche: I think I had just opened that week or something and my belt, my office was in a loft up above. So it looked over the salon. So I'm under my desk. Sobbing on the phone with him going, what have I done? I can't do this. Blah, blah, blah. And he's like, talking me, you know, through it, trying to get me to stop crying and cause I have to go back down
[00:30:24] Ruth Roche: you know, to do hair.
[00:30:25] Antony Whitaker: So, what was the thing that, that broke you? Was it recruitment
[00:30:29] Ruth Roche: I had to let someone go before I even opened. That's that was always the hardest part for me
[00:30:35] Antony Whitaker: Yeah.
[00:30:36] Ruth Roche: when you know someone, someone's, you know, it's not working out.
[00:30:39] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. Yeah,
[00:30:41] Ruth Roche: And you have to have that conversation and I'm a people pleaser, you know what I mean? So that was, that was really. The worst part and the other part was managing people like telling a 35 year old person to not chew gum for five years. What the hell? Like, I can't deal with that. That's just dumb. So anyway, I just, I didn't have that in me. I didn't have, I, I could understand financials, but just no interest in it. Like, it didn't, it just felt like torture to have to look at it and deal with it. Um,
[00:31:21] Antony Whitaker: what did you learn about yourself during those eight years?
[00:31:25] Ruth Roche: I learned that I was not a good manager, but I was a good leader
[00:31:29] Antony Whitaker: Okay,
[00:31:30] Ruth Roche: and I learned that there was a difference.
[00:31:32] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, definitely I would have actually said the same thing about me
[00:31:35] Ruth Roche: really cool.
[00:31:36] Antony Whitaker: yeah, so tell me tell me your insight into that that you were a good leader, but not a good manager
[00:31:42] Ruth Roche: Cause I would do whatever they, I asked them to do, I would do it too. You know, um, whether that's like sweeping the floor, cleaning a coffee cup, you know, saying hello to every single client, making sure everyone was comfortable, you know, all the things that I asked them to do. I wasn't afraid to do myself.
[00:32:02] Ruth Roche: Um, and just helping them to. Believe in themselves creatively and help them learn how to have the skills to be able to feel great behind the chair and confident, you know, um, and I just was always, uh, doing things, I think, showing them how you can, you can manifest what you want. So I would, you know, we would have these.
[00:32:29] Ruth Roche: Events at the salon where we would bring in music and we'd have art, you know, I had 15 foot ceilings, so we'd have art, you know, hanging around for then featuring different people. But I, I think I just showed them that you don't give up that you, you know, you can create anything you can, if you stick to it.
[00:32:50] Ruth Roche: And, um, we had a lot of fun, you know, we had a lot of fun, but I think people wanted to work with me because they wanted, they wanted the guidance and I think they thought it would be fun. Sometimes I think people were disappointed because I'm also very serious when I'm working,
[00:33:11] Antony Whitaker: So did you ever feel like it was a fit or did you always feel like this is a fraud? And I, I'm not saying it was, by
[00:33:20] Ruth Roche: No, I understand.
[00:33:21] Antony Whitaker: but did you ever feel, I mean, eight years is a long time.
[00:33:25] Antony Whitaker: Were you always feeling like a sort of, you know, out of place? Or were there times where you thought, no, I'm loving this, building up the clientele, having a salon, employing staff?
[00:33:35] Ruth Roche: I think I always felt a little like I was on a roller coaster. You know what I mean? Like you don't know what's around the corner. I think that's what the hardest part for me was to like, you know, I think, and I was so, you know, just that you were responsible for all these people, you know what I mean? To make sure that they had a place to work, that they had, they got paid, they had, you know, all those things.
[00:33:59] Ruth Roche: And, you know, Um, so I never really felt like, oh, I got this, you know, we're, we got to where we were really consistently busy and I had a good amount of people on the floor and, and it was getting better, but it took so long to get there, you know, and so the first 5 years was fun because it was build, build, build, build, you know, and.
[00:34:22] Ruth Roche: Excitement and all that stuff. And then the, then that's when people, you know, like people started leaving or they, you know, I had to fire someone who had been there for a long time. And so it started to hurt my heart, you know? And that's, that's the, that's why I don't think I'd ever do it again. Cause I can't separate.
[00:34:41] Ruth Roche: How I feel for somebody from the business part of it, it's, I can, but it, it really rips me apart. So, um, the last three years was about me exploring ways to move on and, and do, do something else.
[00:34:57] Antony Whitaker: Right. Okay. And what was the something else?
[00:35:00] Ruth Roche: Um, the something else was, uh, staying on as a stylist, um, with. Fatima who bought the salon and that way I could still boss everybody around, but then leave. It was perfect.
[00:35:15] Antony Whitaker: Not the older mess. Yeah.
[00:35:16] Ruth Roche: Yeah, but, um, I wanted to get back into education. So at the time I had pure ology. Retail in my salon and red can color. So I went back to the L'Oreal family, um, under the Pureology brand and started traveling and became their artistic director.
[00:35:39] Ruth Roche: So while I still was in the salon, I started working for Pureology and traveling all over the country. We went, um, over the place, and I did that for 9 years. So all the while I was still, you know, uh, doing shoots and all that stuff. I had still had my agent. Um, but that started to fade away because I started to get so busy with Pureology.
[00:36:05] Ruth: I had to start saying no to people. And when you start saying no to your celebrity clients or photographers or whatever, then they stop asking because you're never available. So, you know, it it's, and it was okay. I was ready to not do that kind of work anymore and get really dive into education again.
[00:36:25] Antony Whitaker: right. Okay. Okay. So was that where your heart was or was that where the money was?
[00:36:30] Ruth Roche: that's both, both. Yeah. My heart mainly because like that interaction with people, um, And helping them as opposed to, you know, doing a celebrity's hair the same way every time you see them. And, you know, like it's, it's just not, it's not always that exciting. And I find that like right now I'm really into going to schools.
[00:36:54] Ruth Roche: And going and seeing those kids when they're like brand new and they, they don't know what, even what they want to do. And I've been sharing some of that really crazy stuff that I do and breaking it down. Like this piece of vinyl is actually hair and here's how I made it. And I cut this apart that I started and they're just like, You know, cause I, it's so advanced, but it, it opens their mind to all the things they could do with hair in the future, you know, so,
[00:37:24] Antony Whitaker: As someone who travels a lot and I've worked in lots of different parts of the industry, you get to see the good and the bad, and you get to see the possibilities. what I want to ask you about is, particularly in the US, what do you like most about what the industry does in the US?
[00:37:45] Antony Whitaker: And what do you wish was different? 
[00:37:48] Antony Whitaker: And then of course, you know, whether you go into Canada or Australia or the UK or Europe or whatever, do you see things and think, wow, I think this would be fantastic if it was more like this, you know, um, at home.
[00:38:01] Ruth Roche: think it's that you have opportunities. You know, like you can own your own salon. You can have a studio, you can, you know, like have a suite. You can be, uh, you can move to New York or LA and be an editorial session stylist, you know, you can be a teacher, you can teach in a school, you can do virtual, you know, like, I think that's anywhere, but that's what I feel like here, opportunity,
[00:38:28] Antony Whitaker: You know, I think America generally,
[00:38:30] Ruth Roche: yeah, what,
[00:38:31] Antony Whitaker: like, you know, anything's possible. If you, if you want to have a go, you can have a go and no one's going to stop you. In fact, in most cases, they're going to applaud you and wish you all the best, aren't they?
[00:38:42] Ruth Roche: That makes sense. Yeah, that's cool. Um, the, what I wish we had more of is. Hairdressing training, I feel like people, what's happened is that people are learning one thing and specializing in it and they're going to burn out, you know what I mean? It's like, if you're just a balayage or what, I'm just using that as an example, if that's all you ever do, you know, then first of all, no, one's going to want to come to you and that's not in style anymore. And then also you're going to go insane doing the same thing over and over and over. And burnout, you know, and I think hairdressing, when I'm talking about like setting hair, combing hair out, you know, backcombing, learning how to style hair, really manipulate hair helps your color placement. It helps haircutting.
[00:39:35] Ruth Roche: It helps everything because you, you get your hands in there more. It's more of this. As opposed to just cutting and fluffing or color and then curling it with a curling iron, you know, it's, it's a different way. So you see so many more options and ahead of air you have that, that skill in your wheelhouse, you know, or if it's part of your wheelhouse.
[00:39:58] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. So if you were advising a young, well, you can answer this question in two ways, if you advising a young hairdresser about that, because I totally agree with you, there's this certain aesthetic that's happening at the moment. It's predominantly long hair, it's predominantly balayage, you know, but when we talk about, you know, Gen Z, that sort of 20 to 30 age group, there's a, there's a lot of hairdressers in there that have never really learned how to cut hair.
[00:40:27] Antony Whitaker: Scrolling through Instagram the other day, I saw a girl with long hair, the length of your hair now, and it was just a very short thing on Instagram, but she had all her hair cut off.
[00:40:37] Antony Whitaker: I And, uh, she was a beautiful girl with long hair and she was a beautiful girl with a haircut off. And when I say a haircut off, it was short. It wasn't as short as mine, but, you know, cut two or three, two or three inches long all over. And she still looked beautiful. And I couldn't help but look at the comments and they were predominantly really negative, um, about why would you, and I'm going to assume that most of the comments were from hairdressers.
[00:41:04] Antony Whitaker: about why would you want to do that to someone, and or why would someone want their hair cut off. Now, It wasn't an ugly haircut. It was quite nice, you know, sort of just as nice, disheveled, short, little tussled thing, not overly styled and you know, whatever, just nice, you know, on a beautiful girl. And I just looked at it and I just thought to myself, isn't it interesting that a lot of young hairdressers today can't see the beauty in that.
[00:41:32] Antony Whitaker: Now, look, my wife's got long hair, you've got long hair, my daughters have got long hair. Uh, it's a thing at the moment, but I'll still see a girl in the street or, you know, in a magazine with short hair and go, God, she looks fantastic. Isn't that refreshing? And I'm sure you do as well. So I sort of worry maybe that a generation of people can't see the beauty in shorter hair as well as long hair.
[00:41:57] Antony Whitaker: Cause long hair can be beautiful without a doubt, but you know, so can short hair. Uh, talk to that for a minute and then we can wrap up.
[00:42:05] Ruth Roche: I think, I think there are, there's a small percentage of that generation that is willing to take a risk and do something like that and go shorter with their hair. They're terrified because they don't know how to cut short hair.
[00:42:21] Antony Whitaker: Hmm.
[00:42:22] Ruth Roche: And they have this thing that short hair makes people look older or whatever.
[00:42:27] Ruth Roche: I think that's sort of part of it. Um, advice is, learn everything, right. Because if it's not in style now, it will be at some point and you want to be able to do it. So I am a little worried. Yes. Like you said about what's going to happen with people looking at someone's face going, Ooh, this would be amazing.
[00:42:53] Ruth Roche: Like a shorter look. If you, if you don't know how to do it, you can't even picture it.
[00:42:59] Antony Whitaker: Yeah.
[00:42:59] Ruth Roche: You have to know how to do it. And I think, you know, I've gone, I've done short haircuts in classes, you know, where just because it's shorter, they're like, Oh, my mom would like that. You know what I mean? It's like, then you go, Oh shit.
[00:43:17] Ruth Roche: You know, that's old to them to cut hair shorter. So it's interesting.
[00:43:24] Antony Whitaker: I saw a, um, I was talking to a hairdresser and I've mentioned this on, on the podcast before because it was just earlier this year and a salon owner was telling me that a client, a young woman came into the salon with a picture of Emma Watson and, uh, out of, you know, Emma Watson actress out of Harry Potter.
[00:43:45] Antony Whitaker: And she's in the, uh, Prada campaign at the moment and she's got a little crop. Beautiful little crop and you know, she's got Elfin features and she looks gorgeous no matter what she had. She looks gorgeous and the salon owner was telling me that a Client bought this picture of Emma Watson from the Prada campaign Into the salon saying that she wanted a haircut like that a young a young woman wanted a haircut like that and all the staff Were terrified And she just couldn't believe that they didn't want to, didn't want to do that.
[00:44:21] Antony Whitaker: It's like that they were terrified because they don't know how to do it. But also I'm just wondering, did they not see the beauty in that as well? You know, cause it can look beauty. I mean, you know, whether you're talking about. Emma Watson, whether you're talking about Twiggy in the 60s or Edie Sedgwick or anyone like, you know, beauty can come in all shapes and sizes and different lengths of hair.
[00:44:45] Antony Whitaker: We touched on that when I, you know, asked you about, Um, you know, salon here versus educator here versus stay chair, et cetera. It has many different faces, but listen, I'm sorry. I've had gone over time Um, but it's, it's been fabulous. It's been really good chatting to you.
[00:45:01] Antony Whitaker: You've got some great insights and you've had an incredible, you know, journey, uh, within this industry. And you still got a few years left in your year. Um, you know, perhaps,
[00:45:12] Ruth Roche: I'm not going away. Damn it.
[00:45:14] Antony Whitaker: perhaps Judi gets another outing. Um, what, whereabouts can people connect with you on Instagram or social media channels?
[00:45:22] Ruth Roche: Instagram is best. It's at Ruth Roche, um, just my name and that's it. DM me. Say hello. Blah, blah, blah. I'm
[00:45:32] Antony Whitaker: but, but you, you have a YouTube channel too, don't you?
[00:45:35] Ruth Roche: Oh yeah.
[00:45:37] Antony Whitaker: Oh yeah, and, and, and don't you have a podcast as well? You know, let's, come on Ruth, like where's Judi when you need her? You know, you've got a podcast, plug your podcast, it's a
[00:45:46] Ruth Roche: know. Judi should have a podcast.
[00:45:48] Antony Whitaker: She should
[00:45:49] Ruth Roche: That's what I'm going to
[00:45:50] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, that's what you should do.
[00:45:51] Ruth Roche: my God. No, I do have a podcast called the golden goat and that is on YouTube and it's just go to the golden goat with Ruth Roche There's no periods in it. Um, and I also have a YouTube channel called Ruth Roche TV, which has educational videos on it and a website that's ruthroche.com
[00:46:14] Antony Whitaker: there you go. And if people make the mistake that I did, which was hunt through the normal podcast apps for Ruth Roche podcast, all I will say is good luck to you because it's, it's on YouTube only, isn't it? I
[00:46:29] Ruth Roche: My, right now I'm
[00:46:31] Ruth Roche: yeah, I'm only on YouTube. If you go to my Instagram and you go to my bio, there's a link in my bio to get to the podcast.
[00:46:38] Antony Whitaker: Right, OK. All right. Well, you've had some good people on there so, uh, uh, good luck with that. I know there's a lot of work that goes into it. So, uh, I'll put those links, uh, on our website, grownmysalonbusiness.com and in the show notes for today's podcast. Uh, if you're listening to this podcast with Ruth Roche, 
[00:46:55] Antony Whitaker: a. k. a. Judi, I hope you've enjoyed it. Uh, do me a favor. Share it with people who you know would enjoy it too. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a rating and review on the Apple podcast app. So to wrap up Ruth Roche, thank you for being on this week's episode of the Grow My Salon Business podcast.
[00:47:12] Ruth Roche: Thank you so much, Antony, for having me. It was fun. I enjoyed chatting with you and you'll have to be on my podcast.
[00:47:19] Antony Whitaker: I will look forward to it. We can't wait another 30 years before we connect, surely.
[00:47:23] Ruth Roche: I know.
[00:47:24] Antony Whitaker: Okay. All right. Thanks again.
[00:47:26] Ruth Roche: Thank you so much