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Some called it ridiculous.

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Others say it's the greatest piano trio album of all time.

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You've got Charles Mingus, a powder keg of talent and temper, kicked out of Duke

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Ellington's band once for attacking trombonist Juan Tizol.

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You've got Max Roach, one of the best drummers who ever lived, an intellectual

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bandleader who demanded only the best from his side men.

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And then there's Duke, a seemingly untouchable legend.

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Nobody told him what to do.

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All three of them in a studio,

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one day of recording.

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It's "Money Jungle."

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Does it work?

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I'm Adam Maness.

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And I'm Peter Martin.

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And you're listening to the "You'll Hear It" podcast, music explored.

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Explored, brought to you today by Open Studio.

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Go to openstudiojazz.com for all your jazz lesson

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needs. Peter Martin.

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Yes.

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Welcome into the show. Are you prepared for

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perhaps the most tense album we've ever

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listened to-

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Yes, I am prepared

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... here on the "You'll Hear It" podcast? Are you ready for this?

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I think I'm ready for it. This is

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a controversial record, I think.

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This is a very interesting record.

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It's a weird record, and I'm just going to go ahead and put it out there.

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Yeah.

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This is not a great record.

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This is not your favorite.

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Well, not only is it not my favorite, for sure, I don't think that this is a great

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record, and I just want to say that because I know that this is apparently a

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beloved record.

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One of our most requested records here-

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Yeah

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... on the "You'll Hear It" podcast.

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This is, of course, "Money Jungle" by Duke Ellington, Charles Mingus, and Max

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Roach. It is a veritable supergroup

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of jazz musicians who were around in the early

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'60s. This was released in February 1963, recorded in September

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1962 at Sound Makers in New York City on the United Artists label, although

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I think eventually it would move to Blue Note.

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Is that-

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Well, I think they got bought up by the whole-

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Oh, that makes sense

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... EMI Toshiba, so it was released.

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When I first heard this in the

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mid-'80s, it was released on CD.

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Yeah.

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Actually, a similar format to this, with a couple of the alternate takes, not all

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of them, but on Blue Note. And it was also remastered, I

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believe, and maybe even remixed, I'm not sure.

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So-

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And I just want to put it out there. I didn't mean to be harsh by saying...

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I should've said I believe. I don't think this is a great album.

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Yeah.

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But I'm open, and I'm excited to explore it with you and with our dear

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listeners. And look, let's just put it out there.

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Not everything is supposed to be great to everybody. You know what I mean?

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Well, it couldn't possibly be.

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Well, no, it couldn't. And I-

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Although, this podcast is pretty much fat with albums-

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Right

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... as we know.

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But I think

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that one difficulty we have within the jazz world, and this podcast is just

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about great music, and exploring music-

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For sure

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... together, and celebrating music, right?

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Yeah. Not just about great jazz. This is about great music that we love.

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Yes. And because this is a record that I know a lot of people

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love, it's important, right? Whenever something stands the test of time-

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Of course it is

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... it's not about... And we're going to pick it apart.

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And I've got notes, my friend.

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Well-

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But that doesn't mean that it's not valid.

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Your opinion is just as valid as my opinion.

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Just because

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we're music podcasters or jazz pianos, I don't think that that gives us any more

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authority to say what somebody likes or not.

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But for me, I'm such a fan of all three of the artists that are

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on here.

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Well, that's it, isn't it?

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Yeah.

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You nailed why it's even worth

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giving this album a shot in the first place, is because it is

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these three heavyweights.

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And Mingus and Max Roach are kind of in their prime right

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now.

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Yeah.

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I mean, they're right in it. And we'll get to Duke Ellington and his later career.

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I have a hot take on this, actually.

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Okay.

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But I think this is some peak Duke Ellington.

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He's had many peaks, obviously, by this point.

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I think he peaked a week later. That's what I think.

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Well, we could talk about that, for sure.

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But it's, to me-

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As a pianist

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... I really enjoy this album. This is not a

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monthly listener for me.

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Mm.

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But I've been a fan of it since I was a teenager, and I come

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back to it occasionally because it's such an incredibly crazy

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document of a very tense day between three

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very larger than life personalities.

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Mm.

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Three mega-talent musicians, and-

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Big personalities

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... big personalities. The question, does it work?

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I think that just kind of depends on what you're looking for as work.

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If you're looking for something that's just like toe-tapping, feels good, feels

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bright and shiny, this is not that.

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Yeah, but I'm going to start to push back a little bit on that-

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Push back

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... in terms of, yes. There's a lot of things.

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We don't always want happy, toe-tapping, let's go back to the swing era.

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It's not about that, but I think that there is, for me, the

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production on this record, the engineering, is of such poor

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quality. I would say somewhat objectively-

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I agree with that

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... poor quality.

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I agree with that.

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The

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recording is some of the worst I've ever heard of Duke Ellington.

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Agreed.

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Even going back to the '30s, the piano's out of tune.

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Now, we could say, "Well, these are incredible artists." It's like, no.

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I mean, yes, they're great artists, but that doesn't mean they're great artists

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every time, and I think it's part of our lionizing of these artists.

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We give it a disservice in jazz when we're like, "The production doesn't matter."

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And I'm like-

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Well-

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... "Eh, it kind of does"

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... before we get too much further into it- ... let's listen to a little bit.

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Okay.

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This is the opening track, the title track, "Money Jungle."

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Charles Mingus on the bass, Max Roach on the drums, Duke Ellington on the piano.

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I do like the way this record starts.

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It's killer.

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It definitely sets the tone, right?

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Mingus is menacing. He is menacing.

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Mingus-

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I don't know. That's the only word I can think of

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... man.

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His choices of what to play.

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He was a powder keg.

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Yeah.

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This is notoriously, kind of a

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frighteningly angry musician.

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Yeah. Well, and look-

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Huge player.

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I know, but all that is sound-

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Enormous artist, but...

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I'm just saying musically, even if you didn't know any of that, I think we have to

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take the document for what it is. Right? So, the music as it unfolds.

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But he's menacing in terms of, not only is he not really

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supporting what's being played. I don't know.

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Those first 30 seconds are so great, and to me, it just starts to fall apart.

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I feel bad because I'm talking over this, and I want people to judge it on their

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own.

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I mean,

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there's good stuff happening, obviously.

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So this whole album recorded in a day.

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This is obviously a minor blues, "Money Jungle."

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I mean, are they locked in?

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Is Charles Mingus and Max Roach as a rhythm section locked in?

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I don't think they are.

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And I think-

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There's just so much tension, isn't there?

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Well, tension is fine, but I'm saying, are they locked

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in as a rhythm? They're swinging. It's not like there's only one way to

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swing, but they're playing a groove and I feel like, it

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sounds to me like they're throwing off the Duke Ellington-

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But is Mingus playing a groove?

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No.

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He doesn't leave that groove and go, ba ba ba ba ba ba.

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I mean, he starts out in the beginning, he's like, da ding ding.

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But I mean, Max is swinging.

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What he's doing here.

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He's menacing.

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I mean, what happened to support the soloist? Hello?

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I don't think it's about that right now.

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Like, Duke's playing some nice stuff, but he can't...

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Between the sound of the piano and what Mingus is doing.

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I think Max Roach is doing the best that he can.

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I'm not trying to blame this on Mingus. I'm just like, I don't get it.

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Every time you kind of want to get it in there, in terms of the groove.

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All right. So it should be said-

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It's a minor blues. This is the other thing. This is a 12-bar minor blues.

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It's not that you can't play it any way you want, that's fine, but the expectation

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when you start a record like this, and Duke is playing the way he is-

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Yeah

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... and it's not that there's one way the rhythm section has to play, but

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Max Roach is playing that, and it's great that

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Mingus brings his thing to this, but the tension

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is, there's no establishment of the groove outside of those first...

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I feel like this

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cut, and in some ways, this album peaks at the first 30 seconds of this first

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track. There's beautiful places that come in-

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No, hard disagree on that. There's some really great moments after that.

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Yeah, but I mean, I don't know, man.

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We always talk about how the first track sets the tone.

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I mean, again, this is just-

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I mean, there's definitely-

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... if somebody listens to this and is like, "Oh, my God, it's so inspiring,"

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that's great.

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Well, just for some context-

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Yeah

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... there was a lot of tension at this session. So this is a one-day session.

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Max Roach is complaining, apparently, about Mingus's playing to everybody

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that'll listen during the session.

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But Mingus kept playing louder and louder, almost defiantly-

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Yeah

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... which is why I'm saying, I think Charles Mingus had some just unresolved

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personal issues with some of this.

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These guys, by the way,

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I think had all played together in various combinations-

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Yeah

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... at some point. Mingus and-

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Mingus and Max Roach had both played with the Duke Ellington Orchestra when they

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were young.

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At certain times, that's right.

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Really.

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And famously, we talked about this in the "Ah Um," Mingus "Ah Um" episode-

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Yeah

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... that Mingus got kicked out of Duke's band because-

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Because they had a fight with Juan Tizol, right?

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... Juan Tizol, composer of "Air Raid"

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And there were various stories about that.

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But even just a few years earlier, like

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seven years before this,

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Charles Mingus made a quartet record plus Max Roach.

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This is "Haitian Fight Song." So they're playing together.

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Yeah.

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It's not like they don't like each other.

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Right.

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You know what I mean? They're playing together.

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No, I mean, didn't Mingus recommend, like, Max Roach was

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the first, when he was talking to Duke Ellington, or maybe it was the other way

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around,

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that I think Mingus said, "I want Max Roach.

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That's what's going to make this happen."

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Absolutely.

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And Duke Ellington was like, "Cool."

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And by the way, just a little bit of lead-up for all of this.

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I can't believe we would have to do this, but if you don't know how we got here in

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the first place, Duke Ellington was in his 60s at this point.

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He was 63 years old when he made this.

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00:10:39,812 --> 00:10:42,052
He was one of the most famous musicians on the planet-

253
00:10:42,312 --> 00:10:42,392
Yeah

254
00:10:42,532 --> 00:10:46,412
... at that time, and had been for the last 30, 40 years, starting

255
00:10:46,472 --> 00:10:46,952
with...

256
00:10:48,252 --> 00:10:48,892
Da doo.

257
00:10:49,972 --> 00:10:50,772
Now, that's locked in.

258
00:10:51,772 --> 00:10:52,292
1930.

259
00:10:52,592 --> 00:10:55,772
Da doo, da da doo, da da doo.

260
00:10:55,872 --> 00:10:58,782
There's elements of this production that are superior to "Money Jungle."

261
00:10:58,872 --> 00:11:01,412
I agree. Don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

262
00:11:01,492 --> 00:11:01,772
Also-

263
00:11:01,822 --> 00:11:01,882
Oh

264
00:11:02,492 --> 00:11:03,512
... you might recognize this one.

265
00:11:03,532 --> 00:11:04,432
That's a better piano sound.

266
00:11:04,442 --> 00:11:06,512
It's a Billy Strayhorn composition, "Take the A Train."

267
00:11:06,592 --> 00:11:06,812
Yeah.

268
00:11:11,612 --> 00:11:15,502
Huge star, Duke Ellington. Max Roach came up playing,

269
00:11:15,892 --> 00:11:19,192
is a generation, or maybe even a generation and a half, younger than Duke

270
00:11:19,252 --> 00:11:22,852
Ellington. Came up playing with bebop musicians like Charlie Parker and Dizzy

271
00:11:22,912 --> 00:11:25,232
Gillespie and Bud Powell. But famously-

272
00:11:25,532 --> 00:11:25,712
Ah.

273
00:11:26,662 --> 00:11:26,663
Clifford Brown

274
00:11:26,662 --> 00:11:28,312
... had a breakthrough with Clifford Brown.

275
00:11:28,892 --> 00:11:32,492
Some of the great... How have we not done this, Roach? Can we slot this in today?

276
00:11:34,052 --> 00:11:34,482
We've got to do that.

277
00:11:34,532 --> 00:11:36,152
Man, that drum sound-

278
00:11:36,572 --> 00:11:37,412
Oh, the production is-

279
00:11:37,452 --> 00:11:37,862
... this is Mercury

280
00:11:38,112 --> 00:11:39,832
... superior. 10 years earlier, by the way.

281
00:11:40,652 --> 00:11:42,052
Yeah. Piano sound, Richie Powell.

282
00:11:44,732 --> 00:11:47,072
Ooh. That Sonny or Harold Land?

283
00:11:48,832 --> 00:11:49,871
Oh, they're about to swing out.

284
00:12:01,832 --> 00:12:02,412
That's not fair.

285
00:12:02,572 --> 00:12:02,972
No, it is.

286
00:12:03,012 --> 00:12:03,172
Okay.

287
00:12:03,382 --> 00:12:06,172
And I know what lovers of this record are saying to me right now.

288
00:12:06,262 --> 00:12:09,872
"Okay, boomer, you want it to go back to just Spang-a-Lang and Spang-a-Lang."

289
00:12:09,972 --> 00:12:10,112
Yeah.

290
00:12:11,192 --> 00:12:11,452
Maybe.

291
00:12:11,712 --> 00:12:13,932
But there's some more context I want to put in here.

292
00:12:13,992 --> 00:12:16,312
So just a couple of years before Money Jungle,

293
00:12:17,232 --> 00:12:21,152
Charles Mingus, he had been building his reputation for years and years.

294
00:12:21,262 --> 00:12:22,972
Again, came up playing bebop-

295
00:12:23,152 --> 00:12:23,212
Yeah

296
00:12:23,222 --> 00:12:26,111
... with some of those heavyweights, but started making his own albums, had the

297
00:12:26,132 --> 00:12:29,772
breakthrough. We did this last season, 1959's Mingus Ah

298
00:12:29,852 --> 00:12:30,132
Um.

299
00:12:30,232 --> 00:12:31,771
One of the most important jazz records.

300
00:12:32,372 --> 00:12:32,572
Ah.

301
00:12:37,132 --> 00:12:37,842
Horace Parlan on piano.

302
00:12:37,852 --> 00:12:38,172
Yeah.

303
00:12:40,252 --> 00:12:40,402
Again-

304
00:12:40,432 --> 00:12:41,392
Yeah, the production level.

305
00:12:41,452 --> 00:12:41,632
Yeah.

306
00:12:41,812 --> 00:12:44,832
You should check out our episode last season for that one.

307
00:12:44,892 --> 00:12:45,752
Yeah, that was a great one.

308
00:12:45,772 --> 00:12:49,012
But you might remember, on that album, Open Letter to Duke.

309
00:12:49,252 --> 00:12:49,412
Yep.

310
00:12:49,652 --> 00:12:51,932
The name of the track is Open Letter to Duke.

311
00:12:54,252 --> 00:12:56,912
So Mingus paying homage here to one of his heroes.

312
00:12:56,932 --> 00:13:00,792
He was a massive... I mean, you hear it in his greatest, I mean, all of his music.

313
00:13:01,372 --> 00:13:05,212
Is there a bigger influence on Charles Mingus in terms of his compositions than

314
00:13:05,232 --> 00:13:06,682
Duke Ellington? I don't think so.

315
00:13:06,792 --> 00:13:07,292
I don't think so.

316
00:13:07,412 --> 00:13:07,552
Yeah.

317
00:13:07,852 --> 00:13:11,792
But just, again, in the lead-up to Money Jungle, Max Roach had started

318
00:13:11,832 --> 00:13:15,712
making some really important music with a message.

319
00:13:15,812 --> 00:13:17,732
1960's, We Insist.

320
00:13:17,812 --> 00:13:18,452
We Insist, yeah.

321
00:13:18,492 --> 00:13:21,012
This is Tears for Johannesburg. This is a masterpiece.

322
00:13:21,072 --> 00:13:22,692
I think We Insist is unbelievable.

323
00:13:23,632 --> 00:13:24,812
This is three years before Money Jungle.

324
00:13:24,872 --> 00:13:24,972
Yeah.

325
00:13:35,752 --> 00:13:37,792
I

326
00:13:45,172 --> 00:13:46,932
would love to listen to this with you at some point too.

327
00:13:46,962 --> 00:13:46,991
Yeah.

328
00:13:46,992 --> 00:13:47,762
It's great. All those-

329
00:13:47,852 --> 00:13:48,692
Let's switch this one in today.

330
00:13:48,782 --> 00:13:49,752
All the next records.

331
00:13:49,772 --> 00:13:50,342
This is a great record to play.

332
00:13:50,392 --> 00:13:53,572
Well, I wanted to play Tears for Johannesburg because it does kind of like, there

333
00:13:53,652 --> 00:13:54,992
is some DNA in this.

334
00:13:55,022 --> 00:13:55,051
Yeah.

335
00:13:55,052 --> 00:13:55,472
It's around the

336
00:13:56,412 --> 00:13:59,212
relatively same time period for Max Roach.

337
00:13:59,752 --> 00:14:00,172
And,

338
00:14:01,032 --> 00:14:04,572
the sort of vibes, and I think the message, and the sort of, I want to say

339
00:14:04,892 --> 00:14:08,402
the sensibility of these three musicians, was actually a lot closer than

340
00:14:08,792 --> 00:14:12,532
the tension in this album would make us

341
00:14:13,652 --> 00:14:14,352
believe was there.

342
00:14:14,412 --> 00:14:15,031
Mm-hmm.

343
00:14:15,192 --> 00:14:17,072
The next track is Fleurette Africaine.

344
00:14:22,232 --> 00:14:23,492
I mean, that's stunning bass work.

345
00:14:23,652 --> 00:14:24,172
It's amazing.

346
00:14:24,232 --> 00:14:24,412
Yeah.

347
00:14:39,232 --> 00:15:14,952
It's

348
00:15:15,012 --> 00:15:15,332
pretty.

349
00:15:16,202 --> 00:15:17,712
Yeah, but that piano. Ugh.

350
00:15:18,772 --> 00:15:20,212
Sorry. The tuning.

351
00:15:56,572 --> 00:15:58,952
Shout out to the producer for not getting the piano tuned.

352
00:16:00,612 --> 00:16:00,892
Sorry.

353
00:16:03,592 --> 00:16:04,152
It matters.

354
00:16:10,652 --> 00:16:11,532
Fleurette Africaine.

355
00:16:11,692 --> 00:16:11,872
Okay.

356
00:16:12,252 --> 00:16:13,832
Just gorgeous. I think it's gorgeous.

357
00:16:13,912 --> 00:16:17,082
I think it's great up until about 30 seconds before.

358
00:16:17,132 --> 00:16:18,571
Okay, not even talking about the piano tuning.

359
00:16:18,631 --> 00:16:22,542
That's not anybody's fault that's playing on the record, but

360
00:16:22,552 --> 00:16:25,262
it is somebody's fault, and it is part of the whole package of it-

361
00:16:25,432 --> 00:16:25,581
Well, it's-

362
00:16:25,581 --> 00:16:26,532
... and it takes away from it.

363
00:16:26,552 --> 00:16:28,151
The piano sound is atrocious.

364
00:16:28,192 --> 00:16:28,952
It's atrocious.

365
00:16:28,992 --> 00:16:29,252
Yeah.

366
00:16:29,292 --> 00:16:33,272
And Mingus, it's stunning what he starts with, but what he starts doing around here

367
00:16:33,332 --> 00:16:36,592
is, if you listen to what he's playing all through the rest of the

368
00:16:36,632 --> 00:16:39,482
track, I mean, yeah, he's playing some beautiful stuff, but it's

369
00:16:39,852 --> 00:16:43,672
very incongruous with what Duke is

370
00:16:43,692 --> 00:16:47,262
playing. Now, this, I think, was the first time he ever recorded this

371
00:16:47,292 --> 00:16:51,092
song. And this is a beautiful... This was originally called La plus

372
00:16:51,112 --> 00:16:55,052
belle Africaine. It's one of Duke's, not his most famous songs, but it's been

373
00:16:55,092 --> 00:16:56,472
covered a bunch, really well.

374
00:16:57,332 --> 00:16:58,352
It's a beautiful song.

375
00:16:58,362 --> 00:17:02,312
It's a beautiful song. Newsflash. But not only by 1962 was Duke a great composer.

376
00:17:02,392 --> 00:17:03,792
That was many years before.

377
00:17:03,852 --> 00:17:04,032
Yeah.

378
00:17:04,093 --> 00:17:04,272
So,

379
00:17:05,272 --> 00:17:08,962
there's no quibble bit that I have with the compositions, which are all Duke's,

380
00:17:09,093 --> 00:17:11,182
except for Caravan. No. Actually, not even that.

381
00:17:11,182 --> 00:17:11,482
Juan Tizol.

382
00:17:11,792 --> 00:17:14,942
Yeah. But these are all, and there's, I guess, a whole story about that, how-

383
00:17:15,312 --> 00:17:16,152
Mingus' nemesis

384
00:17:16,162 --> 00:17:18,072
... Max Roach and Mingus were salty, because the

385
00:17:19,353 --> 00:17:22,792
plan was to share. But I just think that that track is, as beautiful as that song

386
00:17:22,833 --> 00:17:26,603
is, this is not a great version of it after you get past about a minute and a half.

387
00:17:26,642 --> 00:17:28,612
I really love what Mingus does in the beginning of it.

388
00:17:28,992 --> 00:17:29,372
I agree.

389
00:17:29,392 --> 00:17:30,712
It's an incredible choice. And also, it's-

390
00:17:30,892 --> 00:17:31,692
But I mean,

391
00:17:32,952 --> 00:17:36,232
this is the thing. There's great moments on this record.

392
00:17:36,242 --> 00:17:39,582
These are great musicians. But I'm saying it's not like...

393
00:17:39,612 --> 00:17:42,962
We do a disservice if we say because it's great musicians, it doesn't matter what

394
00:17:42,992 --> 00:17:44,862
the production is. It doesn't matter if they,

395
00:17:46,072 --> 00:17:49,882
maybe for good reason, because there's some alter, not altercations, but

396
00:17:50,172 --> 00:17:50,602
whatever-

397
00:17:50,812 --> 00:17:50,872
No

398
00:17:50,912 --> 00:17:51,952
... acrimony in the studio.

399
00:17:52,112 --> 00:17:52,141
There was.

400
00:17:52,141 --> 00:17:52,772
That's fine.

401
00:17:52,792 --> 00:17:52,852
Yeah.

402
00:17:52,872 --> 00:17:56,772
But then, that doesn't mean... But, I think it's to say, "But

403
00:17:56,792 --> 00:17:58,462
they transcended all that and made a great record."

404
00:17:58,492 --> 00:18:01,992
No one's saying that, but you have to admit, having three

405
00:18:02,172 --> 00:18:05,878
of maybe the top 10 musicians of their eras

406
00:18:06,608 --> 00:18:10,598
on their instruments in the studio together, and the fact that there is a story of

407
00:18:10,628 --> 00:18:13,608
there was acrimony in the studio. And it's like, what is going to happen?

408
00:18:13,708 --> 00:18:15,088
It makes it interesting, but it doesn't make it great.

409
00:18:15,168 --> 00:18:19,008
It's like George Clooney and, who's the "Pretty Woman" actor?

410
00:18:19,068 --> 00:18:20,088
Sorry. Julia Roberts.

411
00:18:20,228 --> 00:18:20,468
Yeah.

412
00:18:20,848 --> 00:18:24,808
They made a little movie, both incredible actors, I would say,

413
00:18:24,968 --> 00:18:25,148
right?

414
00:18:25,308 --> 00:18:25,378
Yeah.

415
00:18:25,588 --> 00:18:26,558
They made a movie together-

416
00:18:26,808 --> 00:18:27,008
Okay

417
00:18:27,108 --> 00:18:29,148
... a couple years ago on Netflix. I don't know if you saw it.

418
00:18:29,188 --> 00:18:30,008
I did see it, yeah.

419
00:18:30,148 --> 00:18:31,148
Did you think that was a great movie?

420
00:18:31,228 --> 00:18:31,868
Not a great movie.

421
00:18:32,028 --> 00:18:32,228
Right.

422
00:18:32,368 --> 00:18:32,438
Yeah.

423
00:18:32,448 --> 00:18:35,497
But that doesn't mean they're not great, and we could say, "Oh, but to have two of

424
00:18:35,528 --> 00:18:36,218
our generation's-"

425
00:18:36,268 --> 00:18:38,368
Don't come for us, George and Julia.

426
00:18:38,408 --> 00:18:41,288
George Clooney's a friend of the pod, friend of ours.

427
00:18:41,328 --> 00:18:41,558
But,

428
00:18:42,428 --> 00:18:45,548
no, but I'm saying, it was a romantic comedy.

429
00:18:45,628 --> 00:18:47,948
I don't remember the whole thing. Whatever. It's on an island or something.

430
00:18:48,628 --> 00:18:49,028
Yeah, they were-

431
00:18:49,038 --> 00:18:49,039
Yeah.

432
00:18:49,038 --> 00:18:49,058
... kids were-

433
00:18:49,058 --> 00:18:50,348
So you could say probably two of our-

434
00:18:50,358 --> 00:18:51,398
... they were divorced, they were getting back together

435
00:18:51,448 --> 00:18:54,928
... best actors of this generation, especially for romantic

436
00:18:55,088 --> 00:18:58,508
comedies. So of course, no one says, "Oh, that was great." They're like, "Eh, it

437
00:18:58,528 --> 00:19:00,948
didn't quite come together." And I think it's okay.

438
00:19:01,148 --> 00:19:01,258
But-

439
00:19:01,258 --> 00:19:04,748
In jazz, in classical perhaps, and maybe some other genres, but definitely in

440
00:19:04,848 --> 00:19:08,798
jazz, we have a problem with this. I think it's a disservice

441
00:19:08,828 --> 00:19:11,708
to tell people, "This is one of the 10 greatest jazz albums of all time."

442
00:19:11,988 --> 00:19:12,468
Who did that?

443
00:19:13,628 --> 00:19:17,488
Well, I've seen it on a lot of lists. Oh my God, this shows up all the time.

444
00:19:17,568 --> 00:19:17,728
Yeah.

445
00:19:18,288 --> 00:19:22,098
And it's not that, "Well, in my opinion it is." People do it because, yes, it's

446
00:19:22,128 --> 00:19:23,668
maybe a contrarian pick.

447
00:19:24,568 --> 00:19:28,068
Guilty as charged. I did a whole YouTube video with 10 contrarian picks.

448
00:19:28,088 --> 00:19:31,888
But they were all ones that I love. I feel like this is a record that people say

449
00:19:31,908 --> 00:19:34,648
they love because they get shamed into it a little bit.

450
00:19:34,688 --> 00:19:36,008
And I was a little bit one of those.

451
00:19:36,068 --> 00:19:36,638
I don't know if you did.

452
00:19:36,638 --> 00:19:37,028
I will say that.

453
00:19:37,508 --> 00:19:40,188
So what's your history with this? When did you first listen to this?

454
00:19:40,228 --> 00:19:40,648
You sure about that?

455
00:19:40,808 --> 00:19:41,968
You sure about that?

456
00:19:42,088 --> 00:19:46,008
I listened to this on CD. It was recommended to me

457
00:19:46,028 --> 00:19:49,808
by Wynton Marsalis, I believe. It was being

458
00:19:49,888 --> 00:19:51,048
recommended a lot around that time.

459
00:19:51,128 --> 00:19:55,068
He gave me some incredible record recommendations,

460
00:19:55,168 --> 00:19:56,668
and I'm pretty sure this is one of them.

461
00:19:56,688 --> 00:19:59,948
And it was just coming out on CD, so there was a little bit of resurgence in that.

462
00:20:00,048 --> 00:20:00,408
And,

463
00:20:02,588 --> 00:20:06,368
yeah. Anyway. I also don't think we can just make a

464
00:20:06,428 --> 00:20:09,748
record important because we say it's important or because there's three masters and

465
00:20:09,768 --> 00:20:13,177
they got into a fight at the studio on the day and somebody stormed out.

466
00:20:13,268 --> 00:20:15,008
That doesn't make a great record. It makes a great story.

467
00:20:16,548 --> 00:20:17,878
Can I give you my take on this?

468
00:20:17,888 --> 00:20:18,108
Please.

469
00:20:18,288 --> 00:20:20,028
On why this makes these lists.

470
00:20:21,008 --> 00:20:24,248
First of all, I think that if you're of a certain sensibility,

471
00:20:25,268 --> 00:20:26,188
there is something

472
00:20:27,028 --> 00:20:30,808
interesting about hearing what would these guys do in one day in the

473
00:20:30,848 --> 00:20:34,508
studio together. And just because it didn't come out in the way that you might

474
00:20:34,548 --> 00:20:38,008
expect, it's still kind of cool to hear, right?

475
00:20:38,588 --> 00:20:38,868
For sure.

476
00:20:38,968 --> 00:20:42,538
The idea of, if you're a fan of all three of these guys, which I am,

477
00:20:43,188 --> 00:20:47,168
it is interesting to hear their choices here. And especially following Duke's lead.

478
00:20:47,568 --> 00:20:49,728
I love the idea. There's no getting around the story of-

479
00:20:49,737 --> 00:20:51,588
Who's following Duke's lead? Well, Max Roach kind of does.

480
00:20:51,648 --> 00:20:54,948
Well, that's But that's what's so interesting, is what is Charles Mingus thinking?

481
00:20:55,048 --> 00:20:55,208
I know.

482
00:20:55,348 --> 00:20:56,918
What is he thinking? But this is great.

483
00:20:56,948 --> 00:20:58,008
This is super intriguing.

484
00:20:58,028 --> 00:21:00,788
But this is what great art does. It doesn't have to be beautiful.

485
00:21:00,808 --> 00:21:01,058
It doesn't

486
00:21:02,508 --> 00:21:06,368
even have to sound good. This is an art record, and this is like, it makes

487
00:21:06,408 --> 00:21:10,188
you question, "What the hell is going on here?" And that's fun.

488
00:21:10,608 --> 00:21:13,388
That is a great intellectual exercise.

489
00:21:13,468 --> 00:21:16,608
Now, does that make it a commercially viable album or whatever?

490
00:21:16,888 --> 00:21:17,878
Does it deserve to be on these lists?

491
00:21:18,248 --> 00:21:21,268
I think for some people, the packaging is unbelievable.

492
00:21:21,528 --> 00:21:23,138
It's one of the best titles of a jazz album ever.

493
00:21:23,168 --> 00:21:23,668
Oh, for sure.

494
00:21:23,818 --> 00:21:26,688
"Money Jungle" is an incredible title of an album, of a song.

495
00:21:27,148 --> 00:21:30,988
The front cover, black and white picture, Duke, in

496
00:21:31,028 --> 00:21:31,248
his

497
00:21:32,128 --> 00:21:32,508
60s.

498
00:21:32,668 --> 00:21:34,278
Shout-out jazz wax. Wax times.

499
00:21:34,348 --> 00:21:34,968
Our other two,

500
00:21:35,788 --> 00:21:37,108
in the generation before.

501
00:21:37,168 --> 00:21:37,478
It's incredible, yeah.

502
00:21:37,478 --> 00:21:40,088
It's so beautiful, and I think that does a lot of heavy lifting for people's

503
00:21:40,128 --> 00:21:42,408
imaginations about what happens in this.

504
00:21:42,448 --> 00:21:45,308
But I will say, Peter, you are not alone, and you're in actually some very good

505
00:21:45,368 --> 00:21:48,548
company. Miles Davis hated it. In 1964-

506
00:21:48,888 --> 00:21:48,898
Oof

507
00:21:48,908 --> 00:21:50,698
... "Downbeat" magazine presented Miles with a few un-

508
00:21:50,728 --> 00:21:51,548
Vindication.

509
00:21:51,868 --> 00:21:54,688
... with a few unnamed tracks and asked for his impression.

510
00:21:54,868 --> 00:21:58,558
They played "Caravan" from "Money Jungle," and he said he couldn't rate it, and

511
00:21:58,568 --> 00:22:02,008
record companies should be kicked in the a*s for releasing it.

512
00:22:02,017 --> 00:22:02,517
I mean, that's

513
00:22:03,328 --> 00:22:03,968
a little harsh.

514
00:22:04,488 --> 00:22:07,628
Miles says, quote, "What am I supposed to say to that? That's ridiculous.

515
00:22:07,908 --> 00:22:10,768
You see the way they can f**k up music? It's a mismatch.

516
00:22:11,028 --> 00:22:14,568
They don't complement each other. Max and Mingus can play together by themselves.

517
00:22:14,828 --> 00:22:17,968
Mingus is a hell of a bass player, and Max is a hell of a drummer, but Duke can't

518
00:22:18,048 --> 00:22:19,907
play with them, and they can't play with Duke."

519
00:22:21,628 --> 00:22:25,548
That's hyperbole going over, but he's not wrong, is

520
00:22:25,568 --> 00:22:26,308
he? I mean.

521
00:22:26,808 --> 00:22:28,968
I say he can't play. Of course, they can play together.

522
00:22:29,048 --> 00:22:31,048
But I kind of agree with that.

523
00:22:32,548 --> 00:22:33,468
Track three. "Very Special."

524
00:22:34,488 --> 00:22:35,898
Oh, wait, before we go to this-

525
00:22:36,088 --> 00:22:36,828
I love this tune.

526
00:22:36,948 --> 00:22:37,088
Yeah.

527
00:22:37,178 --> 00:22:39,128
And by the way, this is like "Take the 'Coltrane' Light."

528
00:22:39,508 --> 00:22:39,908
Totally.

529
00:22:39,948 --> 00:22:40,028
Yeah.

530
00:22:42,248 --> 00:22:45,558
You know, one of the thing about communication you were saying and about

531
00:22:45,558 --> 00:22:49,268
acrimony in the studio, I want to just point out, and maybe we can catch these as

532
00:22:49,328 --> 00:22:52,378
we go so that we don't have to listen to them all at the same time.

533
00:22:52,388 --> 00:22:55,868
But there's some very interesting things happen at the end of some of these tracks.

534
00:22:55,948 --> 00:22:56,148
Yeah.

535
00:22:56,208 --> 00:22:59,968
I'm convinced that they're little musical F-yous to each other.

536
00:22:59,978 --> 00:23:00,228
Oh, really? Okay.

537
00:23:00,308 --> 00:23:02,398
Which would make sense, and it's one of the most intriguing things.

538
00:23:02,398 --> 00:23:03,488
Is there one at the end of "Very Special?"

539
00:23:05,068 --> 00:23:05,657
I can't remember about-

540
00:23:05,708 --> 00:23:06,708
A very special ending?

541
00:23:07,308 --> 00:23:09,648
... but "Money Jungle," there is. If you want to maybe listen to the way that

542
00:23:09,657 --> 00:23:10,038
"Money Jungle" ends.

543
00:23:10,068 --> 00:23:11,688
All right. Let's go to the very end of "Money Jungle."

544
00:23:11,888 --> 00:23:12,068
Yeah.

545
00:23:12,398 --> 00:23:13,968
What do you mean by a musical F-you?

546
00:23:14,328 --> 00:23:15,138
Well, I mean, just

547
00:23:17,088 --> 00:23:26,608
Max

548
00:23:26,988 --> 00:23:29,128
wants to get the last word in, which is great.

549
00:23:29,148 --> 00:23:32,938
To me, this is one of the more interesting,

550
00:23:32,968 --> 00:23:36,608
intriguing, if you talk about intriguing. Like, there's a kind of musical battle.

551
00:23:36,838 --> 00:23:36,948
That's what I'm saying. What is happening?

552
00:23:36,958 --> 00:23:38,128
And then finally, Max is like, "Done.

553
00:23:38,628 --> 00:23:38,948
Stop!"

554
00:23:39,248 --> 00:23:40,278
What is going on in here?

555
00:23:40,308 --> 00:23:42,128
That might not have been happening. Maybe there was a love fest.

556
00:23:42,188 --> 00:23:42,368
But no.

557
00:23:42,388 --> 00:23:43,148
But it sounds like that.

558
00:23:43,488 --> 00:23:45,528
According to all accounts, it was not a love fest.

559
00:23:45,548 --> 00:23:45,558
Yeah.

560
00:23:45,558 --> 00:23:47,098
All right, let's check out "Very Special." I love this tune,

561
00:23:47,148 --> 00:23:52,028
actually.

562
00:23:54,148 --> 00:23:55,888
Okay. Oh, this has a great F-you at the end, actually.

563
00:23:55,928 --> 00:23:56,328
It does.

564
00:23:56,548 --> 00:23:57,268
I remember now.

565
00:24:06,088 --> 00:24:06,268
What is

566
00:24:06,288 --> 00:24:11,950
happening? It

567
00:24:12,020 --> 00:24:14,100
really sounds like Mingus is throwing Duke off.

568
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:28,640
Man, Max is swinging.

569
00:24:40,860 --> 00:24:42,100
I don't know, man. That's pretty good.

570
00:24:42,140 --> 00:24:43,590
This is something. I mean, it's...

571
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:31,900
Woo.

572
00:25:35,820 --> 00:25:36,380
Ah.

573
00:25:47,660 --> 00:25:50,850
Duke Ellington. Come on.

574
00:25:50,850 --> 00:25:51,980
Woo.

575
00:25:52,980 --> 00:25:54,820
I think we're turning him, everybody. I think we're turning Peter.

576
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:55,490
Newsflash

577
00:25:55,490 --> 00:25:55,930
We're turning him back.

578
00:25:55,930 --> 00:25:57,660
Duke Ellington's a hell of a jazz pianist.

579
00:25:58,220 --> 00:26:01,740
But a week later, the whole rhythm section's really

580
00:26:01,820 --> 00:26:02,300
swinging.

581
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:02,700
That's true.

582
00:26:02,940 --> 00:26:04,680
They're, I don't mean to say just,

583
00:26:05,740 --> 00:26:07,880
but they're playing over a 12-bar blues, right?

584
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:08,060
Yeah.

585
00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:11,180
And they're not entirely locked in.

586
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,400
Duke Ellington is, if you compare the way he's playing over this-

587
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:14,879
I disagree

588
00:26:15,100 --> 00:26:16,130
... to ba-day-ba-de-doo-doh-

589
00:26:16,180 --> 00:26:16,470
I'm still-

590
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:17,960
... ba-day-ba-di with Coltrane and them.

591
00:26:18,020 --> 00:26:19,680
I'm not saying you have to play it the same way-

592
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:20,109
This feels locked in for me

593
00:26:20,109 --> 00:26:21,539
... but you're playing the same kind of tune.

594
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,600
I don't know, man. I like what's going on here.

595
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:24,430
Duke's playing it better.

596
00:26:24,430 --> 00:26:25,000
It's a different vibe.

597
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:26,320
Man, Duke's playing-- I mean like-

598
00:26:26,500 --> 00:26:27,410
Well, the piano sounds way better

599
00:26:27,410 --> 00:26:30,440
... the piano sounds better, and that's all part of it, but he just sounds more

600
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,220
comfortable. Which is fine. There's always going to be different comfort

601
00:26:34,300 --> 00:26:34,580
levels.

602
00:26:35,940 --> 00:26:38,050
Duke a little bit uncomfortable still is going to be great. Yeah.

603
00:26:38,050 --> 00:26:40,980
All right. Hold on. I want to hear the musical F you at the end of this one, too.

604
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:43,960
He's already starting it. You hear?

605
00:26:48,580 --> 00:26:49,299
Charles Mingus.

606
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:58,260
Oh, that's just a standard.

607
00:26:58,340 --> 00:26:59,090
That was the... Okay, fine.

608
00:26:59,100 --> 00:27:00,780
So you mentioned what happened a week later.

609
00:27:01,300 --> 00:27:01,370
Oh, w-

610
00:27:01,380 --> 00:27:03,970
But that track ended, they end it really abruptly.

611
00:27:03,970 --> 00:27:06,720
If you hear before this, it's just kind of like dung.

612
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:11,000
About a week and a half after they recorded this album, Duke Ellington,

613
00:27:11,060 --> 00:27:13,880
who, and I might go into a little tangent here, but Duke

614
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,420
recorded with another musician who was a generation younger than him.

615
00:27:18,460 --> 00:27:18,900
Yep.

616
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,840
An album called "Duke Ellington & John Coltrane" with Duke Ellington

617
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,980
and incredible tenor saxophonist John Coltrane.

618
00:27:26,020 --> 00:27:29,090
We listened to a little bit of that in, I think it's season 12-

619
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:29,660
Yeah

620
00:27:29,669 --> 00:27:31,260
... when we listened to that sort of like-

621
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:31,350
Ballads and

622
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:32,310
... Coltrane ballads thing.

623
00:27:32,340 --> 00:27:33,640
Yeah. The impulse stuff.

624
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,120
And the opening track on that is called "Take the Coltrane," another blues, and it

625
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:37,920
sounds like this. Very

626
00:27:39,220 --> 00:27:39,860
special-ish.

627
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:40,140
Yep.

628
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:40,570
Huh.

629
00:28:06,100 --> 00:28:09,880
So good. So you're right, though, Duke Ellington on the "Duke Ellington & John

630
00:28:09,900 --> 00:28:10,460
Coltrane" album-

631
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:10,600
Yeah

632
00:28:10,609 --> 00:28:12,020
... does seem a little more comfortable.

633
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:13,120
Well, a lot more comfortable-

634
00:28:13,140 --> 00:28:13,200
Yeah

635
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,190
... than he does on "Money Jungle," probably because half-

636
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:16,040
Would you say he sounds better?

637
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:17,960
I would say he's playing

638
00:28:19,420 --> 00:28:21,940
more comfortably. He seems a little freer.

639
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,590
I do agree with you that Mingus might be throwing him a little bit on some of this

640
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,239
stuff, as Mingus would throw anybody, honestly-

641
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:29,620
Yeah

642
00:28:29,630 --> 00:28:30,739
... with what he's doing. But also-

643
00:28:30,780 --> 00:28:34,640
I think, too, I don't want to just say it was just on Mingus, because if

644
00:28:34,700 --> 00:28:38,680
you accept that Mingus and Max Roach were not really locked in on a lot

645
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:39,920
of this, that's going to throw off the piano.

646
00:28:39,940 --> 00:28:40,300
Oh, yeah.

647
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:41,360
The trio is such a-

648
00:28:41,390 --> 00:28:42,000
It would throw off anybody.

649
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,620
Yeah. It's the three, but there is still that rhythm section, if that thing isn't

650
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:46,010
there, but-

651
00:28:46,060 --> 00:28:48,260
There's a reason why Oscar Peterson always sounds swinging.

652
00:28:48,380 --> 00:28:49,360
A, he's Oscar Peterson, but-

653
00:28:49,540 --> 00:28:49,550
Yeah

654
00:28:49,550 --> 00:28:52,130
... always Ed Thigpen and Ray Brown are always locked in.

655
00:28:52,180 --> 00:28:55,210
And look, the argument could be made that Oscar Peterson never

656
00:28:56,220 --> 00:28:59,970
put himself out on the ledge like Duke Ellington did here.

657
00:28:59,970 --> 00:29:00,450
100%.

658
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,180
So that's valid.

659
00:29:02,220 --> 00:29:02,580
Yep.

660
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,090
But then again, not everybody has to do everything.

661
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,860
Because we have a comparison a week later and a couple years

662
00:29:08,940 --> 00:29:09,420
before-

663
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:09,720
Yeah

664
00:29:09,780 --> 00:29:13,160
... with what I think for Duke Ellington, to me, is a much more superior...

665
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:14,060
We're just talking about his

666
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,160
playing. The compositions, I don't think there's different levels to his

667
00:29:18,170 --> 00:29:21,460
composition, but I've never heard a bad... These blues is some of...

668
00:29:21,940 --> 00:29:24,379
I know he wrote some of these in the studio.

669
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:24,590
Of course.

670
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,500
He could just do that. These are not master-

671
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:26,800
There was no rehearsal at any of this, by the way.

672
00:29:26,830 --> 00:29:26,839
Right.

673
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:27,660
There was no rehearsals.

674
00:29:27,690 --> 00:29:27,699
Yeah.

675
00:29:27,700 --> 00:29:28,480
They were just going for it.

676
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:29,320
Yeah, but he could do that.

677
00:29:29,980 --> 00:29:31,420
Can I give you my Duke Ellington hot take?

678
00:29:31,620 --> 00:29:31,760
Yes.

679
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:32,380
So-

680
00:29:32,460 --> 00:29:32,780
Please

681
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:33,930
... as we've gotten older-

682
00:29:34,220 --> 00:29:34,280
Yeah

683
00:29:34,340 --> 00:29:38,080
... I don't know about you, but I've been paying attention to certain musicians now

684
00:29:38,140 --> 00:29:41,860
for their whole careers. Right? So it's like someone like you or like Brad

685
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,740
Mehldau. I've known you since before you and I actually knew each other.

686
00:29:44,830 --> 00:29:45,350
Mehldau.

687
00:29:45,420 --> 00:29:47,600
Or Brad Mehldau or Herbie Hancock.

688
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,220
I've known Herbie Hancock my whole life-

689
00:29:49,460 --> 00:29:49,480
Yeah

690
00:29:49,490 --> 00:29:51,740
... essentially. And I've watched what he's done.

691
00:29:51,900 --> 00:29:54,850
By the way-I don't know if you know this. Herbie, amazing musician.

692
00:29:55,220 --> 00:29:55,940
He's good.

693
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:56,420
Incredible.

694
00:29:56,780 --> 00:29:58,219
Send me a playlist.

695
00:29:58,260 --> 00:30:00,540
Herbert Hancock, undeniably great.

696
00:30:00,580 --> 00:30:04,360
No, but it's interesting to watch people as they have the arc of

697
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,600
their initial popularity, when they really hit, and then

698
00:30:08,999 --> 00:30:12,270
when the sort of culture shifts them out of the zeitgeist-

699
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:12,480
Yes

700
00:30:12,700 --> 00:30:13,360
... to a new zeitgeist.

701
00:30:13,390 --> 00:30:14,160
You're talking about like Sinatra, man.

702
00:30:14,220 --> 00:30:15,040
We talked about it with Sinatra.

703
00:30:15,100 --> 00:30:15,730
Oh, that was right around the same time.

704
00:30:15,740 --> 00:30:18,560
And then to see how they respond to that and what they do.

705
00:30:18,580 --> 00:30:18,640
Yeah.

706
00:30:18,650 --> 00:30:22,140
And I'm going to put out, my hot take on this entire album is that this is the

707
00:30:22,220 --> 00:30:25,980
start or maybe the middle of a run in Duke Ellington's last

708
00:30:26,060 --> 00:30:27,420
stage of his career, or maybe-

709
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:27,810
Yeah

710
00:30:27,810 --> 00:30:28,770
... penultimate-

711
00:30:29,060 --> 00:30:29,430
Last 10 years. Yeah

712
00:30:29,430 --> 00:30:33,409
... last, yeah, 10-ish years, that he does better than almost anybody.

713
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:33,620
Mm.

714
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,660
He shifts from being one of the most famous musicians in the world, who owns

715
00:30:37,700 --> 00:30:38,450
the swing genre-

716
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:38,600
Yeah

717
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,660
... who invents so many of the musical fingerprints

718
00:30:42,700 --> 00:30:44,860
that we all still lean on today, honestly.

719
00:30:44,900 --> 00:30:44,930
Yeah.

720
00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:48,940
Orchestration-wise, composition-wise, even just the setup of how a

721
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,960
band is owes a lot to Duke Ellington-

722
00:30:52,060 --> 00:30:52,110
Yeah

723
00:30:52,110 --> 00:30:54,190
... and his work in the '20s and '30s and '40s.

724
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,520
But in the '50s, '60s, and '70s, early '70s, right before he passes-

725
00:30:58,780 --> 00:30:58,880
Yeah

726
00:30:58,890 --> 00:31:02,300
... he goes into this phase of making incredible art.

727
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,300
He shifts to be this art musician, making art songs, collaborating

728
00:31:06,340 --> 00:31:09,810
with younger musicians, making these suites, these elaborately-

729
00:31:10,020 --> 00:31:10,030
Mm

730
00:31:10,030 --> 00:31:13,679
... composed and arranged pieces for his big band, and collaborating with all of

731
00:31:13,700 --> 00:31:17,160
these musicians, recording a ton when he's in his 60s and 70s.

732
00:31:17,700 --> 00:31:21,420
And I just think it's like he nailed this better than almost anybody.

733
00:31:21,580 --> 00:31:24,220
I would put the only person who's maybe-

734
00:31:24,260 --> 00:31:25,720
Like an artistic final act

735
00:31:25,980 --> 00:31:29,040
... the only person who's maybe done this better, but not on the scale of Duke

736
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,820
Ellington, is someone like Charles Lloyd, who's perhaps better now than he was at

737
00:31:32,860 --> 00:31:34,060
his first peak.

738
00:31:34,300 --> 00:31:34,420
Mm.

739
00:31:34,460 --> 00:31:37,580
You know what I mean? But Duke Ellington nails his final act.

740
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,680
He's not trying to be, "Bum, ba-da, ba, ba, ba."

741
00:31:40,950 --> 00:31:40,959
Mm.

742
00:31:40,980 --> 00:31:42,520
I mean, he's still touring around with doing that stuff-

743
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:42,690
Yeah

744
00:31:42,690 --> 00:31:46,360
... but he's also making "Money Jungle." He's taking risks when he doesn't have to.

745
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:47,620
He could just coast on-

746
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:47,900
I agree

747
00:31:47,910 --> 00:31:49,120
... "Take the A Train" forever.

748
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:49,320
I-

749
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:49,660
You know what I mean?

750
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,320
Yeah. And I mean, I agree with what you're saying in terms of

751
00:31:54,140 --> 00:31:57,530
this period, and I mean, he did stuff with the big band that was very, talking

752
00:31:57,540 --> 00:31:58,740
about the New Orleans suite.

753
00:31:58,780 --> 00:31:59,180
The Paris suite.

754
00:31:59,230 --> 00:32:00,020
The Paris, yeah.

755
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:00,640
Incredible.

756
00:32:00,700 --> 00:32:01,069
And

757
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,640
I agree with that. But I just think this is a miss in terms of that.

758
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,080
I love that he took this chance, and you're right.

759
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,320
But I mean, if we say everything is

760
00:32:11,300 --> 00:32:15,200
great art just because Duke Ellington put his hands on it, I think

761
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,329
that just does a disservice. I'll read this,

762
00:32:18,460 --> 00:32:18,609
and

763
00:32:20,140 --> 00:32:23,829
this is not to restrict anybody from loving this record, I hope.

764
00:32:23,900 --> 00:32:25,630
Different strokes for different folks, right?

765
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:26,450
All I'm saying is

766
00:32:27,460 --> 00:32:30,080
we can

767
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,900
believe and understand and appreciate and revel in

768
00:32:35,940 --> 00:32:39,500
this final act for, I don't want to say final, it was a long, whatever, 10, 12

769
00:32:39,540 --> 00:32:42,620
years. This beautiful period at the end of his artistic career.

770
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:43,150
An incredible period. Yeah.

771
00:32:43,180 --> 00:32:46,120
We can celebrate that and understand the arc.

772
00:32:46,180 --> 00:32:49,880
Unlike some artists, they do their thing and whatever, that he was like a crescendo

773
00:32:49,900 --> 00:32:52,100
and he stayed relevant artistically.

774
00:32:52,109 --> 00:32:54,900
It's not about, "Oh, I'm going to play rock and roll because that's where the

775
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,120
wind's blowing." It's just like he wants to try different things.

776
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,340
He's out of college. "Yeah, let's try it." I think we can appreciate that and

777
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,580
sit in that truth of that without saying that

778
00:33:06,660 --> 00:33:10,180
everything that he touches is going to be a great document. That's my only thing.

779
00:33:10,460 --> 00:33:10,980
And so when we-

780
00:33:11,030 --> 00:33:14,400
But that's subjective, though. I mean, this is a big swing. I'll give you that.

781
00:33:14,500 --> 00:33:15,400
I know, but no, but some-

782
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,720
It's a big swing, and you say it's a miss, but I think for a lot of people, this

783
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:18,200
was a hit.

784
00:33:18,420 --> 00:33:21,420
Right. But I think for a lot of people, it's a hit because they're told it's a hit,

785
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,080
and that's just what I want to give people license.

786
00:33:23,180 --> 00:33:25,140
I know I was like that, so am I personalizing this too much?

787
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:25,510
You might be.

788
00:33:25,510 --> 00:33:25,950
Maybe a little bit.

789
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:27,670
I mean, but I think a lot of people genuinely,

790
00:33:27,700 --> 00:33:31,470
like I said, I'm not listening to this

791
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,010
even once a year, but whenever I come back to it, I'm like, "Oh, it's so weird, and

792
00:33:35,060 --> 00:33:37,580
what a cool idea," and it kind of is a mess.

793
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:38,480
I agree with both of those.

794
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:39,560
It's kind of a mess.

795
00:33:39,609 --> 00:33:39,619
I agree with that.

796
00:33:39,620 --> 00:33:41,740
And it's kind of great at the same time that it's a mess.

797
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:43,200
Oh, I agree with everything but that part.

798
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,340
I'm just saying. All I'm saying is mad respect to Duke Ellington for even trying

799
00:33:47,460 --> 00:33:47,940
stuff like this.

800
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:48,080
Oh, absolutely.

801
00:33:48,100 --> 00:33:51,500
I mean, if you think about Louis Armstrong, the greatest musician of the 20th

802
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:51,880
century-

803
00:33:52,060 --> 00:33:52,520
Yeah

804
00:33:52,540 --> 00:33:52,940
... up there.

805
00:33:53,100 --> 00:33:53,920
He tried weird stuff.

806
00:33:54,100 --> 00:33:57,860
Well, but he also just did a lot of, his last act was a lot of like,

807
00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:58,720
"Hello, Dolly-"

808
00:33:58,900 --> 00:33:59,020
Right

809
00:33:59,030 --> 00:34:02,720
... and recording pop songs that he's singing and really embracing sort of the

810
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:04,700
celebrity-ness of his persona.

811
00:34:05,109 --> 00:34:05,110
Yeah.

812
00:34:05,109 --> 00:34:09,020
And Duke certainly had that. He's doing this probably better than almost

813
00:34:09,100 --> 00:34:12,720
anybody except for maybe Miles, but Miles is like a different story altogether.

814
00:34:12,940 --> 00:34:13,140
Yeah.

815
00:34:14,500 --> 00:34:17,020
No, I agree. He should be celebrated for this and

816
00:34:17,720 --> 00:34:21,281
for taking the risks and trying different things.

817
00:34:21,361 --> 00:34:21,400
I

818
00:34:22,261 --> 00:34:24,120
don't think that the expectation...

819
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,361
It's just weird in jazz how we're like, "Oh, because he did this and because these

820
00:34:27,420 --> 00:34:30,540
greats are together, and because the album cover is great, then this is a great

821
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,321
album," and that we can't talk about the production and the engineering.

822
00:34:33,540 --> 00:34:37,180
That can kill a record. It doesn't mean, you set the

823
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,700
bar when the production is at a lower level.

824
00:34:39,740 --> 00:34:43,130
The bar has to be set so high for the performance to come through.

825
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,440
It's like we talk about listening to the early Louis Armstrong recordings, where

826
00:34:46,720 --> 00:34:50,520
because of the technology, he transcends the

827
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,400
technology of the microphones and where he's going to be placed where you can hear

828
00:34:54,460 --> 00:34:58,270
that beauty and humanity. And so, look, I'm not saying, "Come on, Duke.

829
00:34:58,350 --> 00:35:01,420
Play it back like you did in the '30s and '40s when it was the good old..." No,

830
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:03,020
that's not, like I say, we have a-

831
00:35:03,130 --> 00:35:03,290
No, you're not

832
00:35:03,460 --> 00:35:07,220
... we have a week later to prove. I just think his playing is just so much

833
00:35:07,260 --> 00:35:11,040
better. Like anybody. I mean, Duke Ellington's a human piano

834
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,780
player. He's great, but I mean, you've got to have the stuff.

835
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:15,980
I mean, sometimes you go in there, and it just doesn't quite click.

836
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:17,160
All right, I'm going to try to...

837
00:35:18,220 --> 00:35:19,340
Can I just throw this out there, too?

838
00:35:19,420 --> 00:35:19,430
Okay.

839
00:35:19,460 --> 00:35:23,320
Jazz at Lincoln Center website, that has this as one of the 10 great or 10

840
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:24,130
essential

841
00:35:24,980 --> 00:35:28,130
jazz piano albums, and this is where I think there's a little bit of danger.

842
00:35:28,130 --> 00:35:30,620
"Despite being praised mainly for his big band endeavors,

843
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,640
Duke Ellington's trio work proves to be a treasure all of its own.

844
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,180
The collaboration between a young Max Roach and Charles Mingus with the seasoned

845
00:35:38,220 --> 00:35:42,160
bandleader offers up a dazzling post-bop mishmash of a trio album."

846
00:35:42,220 --> 00:35:46,032
That's just not even true. Duke Ellington's... Duke's

847
00:35:46,052 --> 00:35:49,992
original compositions offer a free canvas for exquisite improvisation, blending the

848
00:35:50,072 --> 00:35:53,852
styles of each musician, yet preserving their individual artistry, all while

849
00:35:53,892 --> 00:35:56,272
securing Duke's spot in the pantheon of jazz greats.

850
00:35:56,352 --> 00:35:57,832
It's just such a, I mean-

851
00:35:58,032 --> 00:35:58,891
Thank you, Claude.

852
00:35:59,492 --> 00:35:59,912
What's he say?

853
00:35:59,992 --> 00:36:00,512
Thank you, Claude.

854
00:36:00,592 --> 00:36:03,512
I know. It's like an AI, I don't know.

855
00:36:03,852 --> 00:36:06,702
The thing is, I like your take on this, this like weird and

856
00:36:07,312 --> 00:36:08,912
experimental art music.

857
00:36:08,932 --> 00:36:08,942
100%.

858
00:36:08,952 --> 00:36:11,451
Yeah, but then say that. This is an important,

859
00:36:12,452 --> 00:36:16,332
and essential jazz album because stuff happened on here that had never

860
00:36:16,352 --> 00:36:20,052
happened before, and it's going to challenge your brain, and it's got-- Say

861
00:36:20,092 --> 00:36:23,392
something, but don't be like, "This is a great yada-dada-dada trio record," because

862
00:36:23,412 --> 00:36:25,692
it's not in that vein. Maybe there is something I'm missing.

863
00:36:25,752 --> 00:36:28,632
I remain humble with this stuff, and I'll always come back to it.

864
00:36:28,672 --> 00:36:31,892
Well, especially if you look at the trio records from around this time by people

865
00:36:31,932 --> 00:36:33,432
like McCoy Tyner, by people like-

866
00:36:33,522 --> 00:36:33,523
Hello

867
00:36:33,522 --> 00:36:34,042
... Bill Evans-

868
00:36:34,072 --> 00:36:34,332
Hello

869
00:36:34,352 --> 00:36:37,042
... by people like, well, I mean, Herbie Hancock and his Quintet-

870
00:36:37,042 --> 00:36:37,062
Wayne Shorter

871
00:36:37,062 --> 00:36:37,272
... quintet stuff.

872
00:36:37,412 --> 00:36:37,532
Yep.

873
00:36:37,672 --> 00:36:39,382
Wynton Kelly. Really incredible-

874
00:36:39,712 --> 00:36:39,812
Yep

875
00:36:40,112 --> 00:36:40,742
... stuff going on.

876
00:36:40,912 --> 00:36:41,472
Sonny Clark.

877
00:36:41,812 --> 00:36:43,752
But I'm going to try to get you back again.

878
00:36:43,781 --> 00:36:43,791
Okay, sorry.

879
00:36:43,792 --> 00:36:45,432
I'm going to take you to "Warm Valley."

880
00:36:49,832 --> 00:36:52,592
So this is, I think, from the '30. I mean, this is

881
00:36:54,312 --> 00:36:55,752
'39, '40. Beautiful.

882
00:37:02,072 --> 00:37:03,191
Kills him every time.

883
00:37:04,412 --> 00:37:06,132
You know, that's Peter's soul leave his body.

884
00:37:06,972 --> 00:37:08,592
Just so you know, the piano out of tune.

885
00:37:08,692 --> 00:37:11,652
If it doesn't bother you, that's great, actually, because it's a great...

886
00:37:32,692 --> 00:37:36,132
This is great, but it's not Duke's best solo piano playing capture.

887
00:37:36,572 --> 00:37:39,592
It's going to be great all the time, but there's little things in it that are...

888
00:37:49,652 --> 00:37:52,132
And his touch is incredible, like his phrasing.

889
00:37:52,192 --> 00:37:55,932
Yeah. What do you say, Peter, to the people, just to counter, again, your point of

890
00:37:55,952 --> 00:37:59,652
some of this stuff. To sort of the piano out of tune and the sound

891
00:37:59,692 --> 00:38:03,092
quality of this gives it that like sort of wabi-sabi of like, it's not perfect,

892
00:38:03,332 --> 00:38:03,432
right?

893
00:38:03,752 --> 00:38:04,392
Maybe.

894
00:38:04,412 --> 00:38:05,292
It is flawed, and it-

895
00:38:05,312 --> 00:38:05,492
Maybe

896
00:38:06,072 --> 00:38:09,092
... so to some people, that is a feature, not a bug.

897
00:38:09,532 --> 00:38:12,912
Well, talk about flawed, when the rhythm section comes in, I think. Well, no.

898
00:38:12,972 --> 00:38:13,032
It

899
00:38:14,272 --> 00:38:16,392
takes away, like you want them to come in and pick it up.

900
00:38:17,632 --> 00:38:20,341
Oh, out of tune, and like- And why is he walking there?

901
00:38:20,341 --> 00:38:21,412
The relentless hate is so-

902
00:38:21,492 --> 00:38:22,352
It's not, I'm not-

903
00:38:22,812 --> 00:38:23,382
I'm here for it, man. I'm here for it.

904
00:38:23,402 --> 00:38:24,292
No, we're talking like-

905
00:38:24,712 --> 00:38:24,722
It's great.

906
00:38:24,772 --> 00:38:27,712
No, I'm saying this is not an F or a D.

907
00:38:28,392 --> 00:38:30,302
So it's not art. You put an F in front of it, it's not.

908
00:38:30,312 --> 00:38:31,192
Of course, it's art.

909
00:38:31,632 --> 00:38:36,012
This

910
00:38:36,052 --> 00:38:39,322
is just not like there's a lot of other Duke Ellington.

911
00:38:40,032 --> 00:38:42,892
He recorded a lot. This is a lot better stuff of him playing.

912
00:38:44,372 --> 00:38:44,692
Ooh.

913
00:38:46,432 --> 00:38:49,432
It's a great composition. I mean, this is one of his-

914
00:38:49,712 --> 00:38:49,942
I think-

915
00:38:49,962 --> 00:38:53,232
... most popular, so just playing it, it's going to be good, even on a crappy

916
00:38:53,272 --> 00:38:53,602
piano, even when-

917
00:38:53,632 --> 00:38:57,352
But again, what if the rawness is something that people find attractive?

918
00:38:57,452 --> 00:38:57,672
You know?

919
00:38:57,812 --> 00:39:00,132
If that's so, that's great. I just don't want people doing it because they're like,

920
00:39:00,152 --> 00:39:02,752
"Oh, this is a great record, so I have to like it."

921
00:39:02,792 --> 00:39:03,762
There's definitely some of that.

922
00:39:03,762 --> 00:39:04,472
"This is an important record."

923
00:39:04,512 --> 00:39:05,482
There's definitely some like-

924
00:39:05,482 --> 00:39:06,072
"Ah, I got to be..."

925
00:39:06,152 --> 00:39:08,932
You know? There's definitely some cheesy dude who's just like, "I love 'Money

926
00:39:09,032 --> 00:39:10,121
Jungle,' babe." You know? Like-

927
00:39:10,152 --> 00:39:11,222
We got to put this in the bomb meter on this record.

928
00:39:11,232 --> 00:39:14,012
Well, for sure. But like, I do think a lot of people

929
00:39:15,072 --> 00:39:16,412
appreciate sort of like

930
00:39:17,972 --> 00:39:20,032
how kind of funky all this is.

931
00:39:20,052 --> 00:39:20,412
Yeah.

932
00:39:22,052 --> 00:39:23,712
All right. That was "Warm Valley."

933
00:39:23,752 --> 00:39:24,352
Wait, is there?

934
00:39:25,212 --> 00:39:26,312
Oh, is there a musical essay you want?

935
00:39:26,341 --> 00:39:27,142
No, I don't think there is. I don't think there is.

936
00:39:27,152 --> 00:39:27,392
Okay.

937
00:39:27,432 --> 00:39:28,222
I can't remember.

938
00:39:28,312 --> 00:39:29,612
I don't want to miss a single one of those.

939
00:39:29,672 --> 00:39:31,852
Next up is, this might be, hmm, this might be-

940
00:39:31,892 --> 00:39:32,972
"Wigwise" has a great one.

941
00:39:33,092 --> 00:39:34,292
This is my favorite. This might be my favorite.

942
00:39:34,312 --> 00:39:34,642
What's up next?

943
00:39:35,182 --> 00:39:35,512
"Wigwise."

944
00:39:35,552 --> 00:39:36,462
Oh, "Wigwise."

945
00:39:36,492 --> 00:39:38,552
I love this tune. Sounds like monk.

946
00:39:38,932 --> 00:39:39,352
Yeah.

947
00:39:44,632 --> 00:39:47,452
Weird tune, though. It's got like cool changes, then goes real blues-

948
00:39:47,512 --> 00:39:47,902
I love that sort of-

949
00:39:47,902 --> 00:39:48,352
... in another key

950
00:39:48,432 --> 00:39:50,102
... contrary motion thing that happens.

951
00:39:55,732 --> 00:39:55,932
Yeah.

952
00:39:57,952 --> 00:39:58,772
I think it's swinging.

953
00:40:03,112 --> 00:40:04,932
I mean, it's fine, it's just weird.

954
00:40:07,952 --> 00:40:11,712
I don't know. And yes, it is swinging, but

955
00:40:11,812 --> 00:40:13,232
swing is not binary. It's not like-

956
00:40:13,512 --> 00:40:13,662
No. No

957
00:40:13,662 --> 00:40:15,582
... it's not swing or it is. I mean, sometimes, but

958
00:40:16,652 --> 00:40:17,002
it's not

959
00:40:17,932 --> 00:40:18,912
all the way in there to me.

960
00:40:19,232 --> 00:40:19,652
That's all.

961
00:40:25,312 --> 00:40:25,532
See,

962
00:40:26,932 --> 00:40:28,892
Mingus and Roach are not...

963
00:40:31,072 --> 00:40:34,792
I hate to say, I'm not trying to be like, "Oh, these guys can't play." This is the

964
00:40:34,832 --> 00:40:37,792
problem with jazz, too. It's like you can't say anything. You can't say anything.

965
00:40:37,872 --> 00:40:40,192
I'm just like, "They're not locked in right now."

966
00:40:40,242 --> 00:40:40,271
Well.

967
00:40:40,272 --> 00:40:42,492
And you could say, "Well, that's an artistic decision."

968
00:40:42,592 --> 00:40:42,812
It was.

969
00:40:42,842 --> 00:40:44,352
But they're just playing a straight blues.

970
00:40:44,412 --> 00:40:44,732
Just like-

971
00:40:44,892 --> 00:40:47,112
But they really were having problems in this session.

972
00:40:47,142 --> 00:40:51,092
Well, okay, but that's like, okay, they bring you out your

973
00:40:51,112 --> 00:40:54,972
dinner that you ordered at the restaurant, and it's like something's

974
00:40:55,032 --> 00:40:57,832
undercooked or whatever, and you're like, "This isn't right." No, no, no.

975
00:40:58,272 --> 00:41:00,172
They're having problems in the kitchen.

976
00:41:00,212 --> 00:41:01,812
You're not going to accept that as

977
00:41:03,632 --> 00:41:06,232
a diner, as somebody that's eating that food.

978
00:41:06,512 --> 00:41:09,332
And so with this, it's like, yes, this is high art, but it's just music for people

979
00:41:09,352 --> 00:41:11,552
to enjoy, and you shouldn't... I don't know.

980
00:41:11,652 --> 00:41:15,532
I mean, yes, that's the causation of maybe this, and

981
00:41:15,632 --> 00:41:18,372
I think that that's why it's not some of Duke's best playing, because the rhythm

982
00:41:18,432 --> 00:41:21,892
section's not locked in, whatever, the acrimony, the piano doesn't sound

983
00:41:21,932 --> 00:41:25,762
great. And so because you have incredible artists, that's going to push it up more

984
00:41:25,832 --> 00:41:28,132
than me playing it. Yeah.

985
00:41:28,172 --> 00:41:28,442
And at some-

986
00:41:28,442 --> 00:41:29,172
But it's not going to make it great.

987
00:41:29,222 --> 00:41:32,672
At some point during the recording, Max Roach said something to Mingus that made

988
00:41:32,692 --> 00:41:33,782
him stop what he was doing-

989
00:41:33,952 --> 00:41:33,962
You love this story.

990
00:41:33,962 --> 00:41:36,062
... put the cover on his bass, and storm out.

991
00:41:36,532 --> 00:41:38,832
Duke ran out after him and convinced him to come back.

992
00:41:39,022 --> 00:41:42,112
Producer Alan Douglas said, "That's one of the visuals-"

993
00:41:42,232 --> 00:41:42,242
Alan Douglas.

994
00:41:42,242 --> 00:41:46,232
"... I will never forget. I remember leaning out the window, looking up towards 7th

995
00:41:46,312 --> 00:41:49,652
Avenue, and seeing Duke Ellington chasing Charlie Mingus up the street."

996
00:41:49,712 --> 00:41:51,551
You love that. You're all about the lore.

997
00:41:51,972 --> 00:41:52,712
I do love the lore.

998
00:41:52,742 --> 00:41:53,202
The lore is-

999
00:41:53,202 --> 00:41:54,942
But you can't disconnect all of this with what it is.

1000
00:41:54,972 --> 00:41:57,164
Most people do. You know what I'm saying?

1001
00:41:57,224 --> 00:41:59,684
If somebody's like, "This is an essential jazz record,"

1002
00:42:01,124 --> 00:42:02,794
and you listen to it, how would you know that?

1003
00:42:02,824 --> 00:42:04,364
You shouldn't have to go research that.

1004
00:42:04,424 --> 00:42:04,454
No, of course not.

1005
00:42:04,454 --> 00:42:07,734
If you love it, it's interesting to add that story on, if you're a

1006
00:42:08,424 --> 00:42:09,644
music nerd or whatever.

1007
00:42:10,264 --> 00:42:11,324
All right, hold on.

1008
00:42:11,464 --> 00:42:14,344
And I would just say, Alan Douglas, and this is nothing personal, I don't really

1009
00:42:14,364 --> 00:42:16,224
know. I know that he was a

1010
00:42:17,404 --> 00:42:19,024
runner for Duke in Paris.

1011
00:42:19,064 --> 00:42:20,804
Hold on. I don't want to miss the musical fu.

1012
00:42:20,844 --> 00:42:22,704
Oh, yeah. Turn it up. This is a big one.

1013
00:42:23,144 --> 00:42:24,784
I love that you love these.

1014
00:42:26,244 --> 00:42:26,464
Yeah.

1015
00:42:27,364 --> 00:42:28,164
They're off there.

1016
00:42:30,724 --> 00:42:31,924
Huh.

1017
00:42:45,104 --> 00:42:45,904
Gotta let me just go.

1018
00:42:46,204 --> 00:42:48,284
Killing it.

1019
00:42:54,954 --> 00:42:55,444
That's great.

1020
00:42:55,664 --> 00:42:55,674
Yeah.

1021
00:42:55,684 --> 00:42:56,524
Okay, Alan Douglas.

1022
00:42:56,624 --> 00:42:56,704
Yeah.

1023
00:42:56,714 --> 00:42:57,044
Alan.

1024
00:42:57,464 --> 00:42:59,044
I also say that's a little bit of a

1025
00:43:01,144 --> 00:43:04,724
letdown in terms of production, even them going on an argument, even this getting

1026
00:43:04,804 --> 00:43:08,714
released like this. We don't talk about this enough in jazz, the production, the

1027
00:43:08,784 --> 00:43:10,224
engineering. That's part of the team.

1028
00:43:11,604 --> 00:43:13,264
We fall too much into just like-

1029
00:43:13,364 --> 00:43:13,834
I agree with this

1030
00:43:13,834 --> 00:43:16,544
... let the geniuses, whatever happens, they're going to transcend. Why?

1031
00:43:16,564 --> 00:43:17,314
Why do we got to do that in jazz?

1032
00:43:17,424 --> 00:43:18,194
I do agree with this.

1033
00:43:18,194 --> 00:43:18,243
Go on.

1034
00:43:18,244 --> 00:43:22,224
I think it's kind of a shame we only got a couple Charlie Parker

1035
00:43:22,364 --> 00:43:24,764
recordings that don't sound like total trash-

1036
00:43:24,944 --> 00:43:24,994
Right

1037
00:43:25,004 --> 00:43:28,264
... production-wise. It would be great to get some kind of hi-fi recording of some

1038
00:43:28,284 --> 00:43:29,204
of those older artists.

1039
00:43:29,404 --> 00:43:29,544
Yeah.

1040
00:43:30,284 --> 00:43:33,744
Even Art Tatum, man. It would be awesome to hear him on a great piano

1041
00:43:34,124 --> 00:43:37,314
recorded in a modern, or even a context that, I guess later on-

1042
00:43:37,314 --> 00:43:38,044
But that was, yeah

1043
00:43:38,084 --> 00:43:39,004
... it happened a little bit. But-

1044
00:43:39,304 --> 00:43:40,504
Yeah, this was not because of tech.

1045
00:43:40,864 --> 00:43:43,014
By 1962, that was not because of technology or restrictions.

1046
00:43:43,014 --> 00:43:45,564
No, you're right. Absolutely. We're past "Kind of Blue" here.

1047
00:43:45,604 --> 00:43:46,404
We're past "Time Out."

1048
00:43:46,414 --> 00:43:46,423
Yeah.

1049
00:43:46,424 --> 00:43:49,244
We're past some of the most gorgeous sounding albums of all time.

1050
00:43:49,364 --> 00:43:52,844
Will you accept that, yeah, and I'm not saying this should've been glossy, or it

1051
00:43:52,864 --> 00:43:56,844
should've even been cavernous like "Kind of Blue." It's not about, oh, it has to

1052
00:43:56,864 --> 00:44:00,544
sound a certain way. And this is always objective, right?

1053
00:44:00,644 --> 00:44:02,434
This is not objective, I'm sorry, subjective.

1054
00:44:02,464 --> 00:44:05,384
This is just my opinion, but I'd be interested to know yours.

1055
00:44:05,863 --> 00:44:08,444
The production on this record, how would you rate that?

1056
00:44:09,224 --> 00:44:09,884
Poorly.

1057
00:44:09,914 --> 00:44:11,344
That was exactly the word I was going to say, poor.

1058
00:44:11,504 --> 00:44:11,604
Yeah.

1059
00:44:11,944 --> 00:44:12,064
Right.

1060
00:44:12,164 --> 00:44:12,734
It doesn't sound great.

1061
00:44:12,744 --> 00:44:12,974
Like a D.

1062
00:44:14,084 --> 00:44:14,244
Yeah.

1063
00:44:14,304 --> 00:44:16,284
Although Ds get degrees, I was told recently.

1064
00:44:16,324 --> 00:44:18,724
Ds do get degrees. Yeah, it's not very good.

1065
00:44:18,924 --> 00:44:22,484
Yeah. And so to me, I don't think you can have a great

1066
00:44:22,584 --> 00:44:23,464
record without,

1067
00:44:24,784 --> 00:44:28,524
it doesn't have to be A-level production, but it becomes very difficult when it's a

1068
00:44:28,584 --> 00:44:29,824
D. You know what I mean?

1069
00:44:29,884 --> 00:44:30,123
Mm.

1070
00:44:30,164 --> 00:44:30,444
For me.

1071
00:44:30,724 --> 00:44:31,124
For me, it's true.

1072
00:44:31,484 --> 00:44:33,194
But it's all sliding scale, right?

1073
00:44:33,204 --> 00:44:35,384
So we're only going to listen to the first, thank God, right?

1074
00:44:35,944 --> 00:44:38,564
No, we're only going to listen to the first seven tracks that were on the original

1075
00:44:38,644 --> 00:44:41,484
LP, which you have here. By the way, I noticed your LP that you have in front of

1076
00:44:41,524 --> 00:44:42,364
us, not opened.

1077
00:44:43,304 --> 00:44:44,644
Is that because you're going to return it, Peter?

1078
00:44:44,993 --> 00:44:47,084
Well, no. I'm

1079
00:44:48,404 --> 00:44:52,124
not a fan of wax time. And shout out, if I'm wrong.

1080
00:44:52,764 --> 00:44:55,164
No, this is represented on Amazon.

1081
00:44:55,564 --> 00:44:58,184
Don't cancel my Prime account. I'm canceling it myself.

1082
00:44:58,404 --> 00:44:58,874
Actually, I'm going to after this.

1083
00:44:58,904 --> 00:45:00,304
I didn't know you were such a Bezos head.

1084
00:45:00,384 --> 00:45:04,304
I'm not. I'm just saying, they represented this as an original print, like a

1085
00:45:04,344 --> 00:45:07,364
new pressing that was licensed. This was fairly expensive.

1086
00:45:07,404 --> 00:45:08,344
I was excited to get this.

1087
00:45:08,454 --> 00:45:08,644
Hey, don't-

1088
00:45:08,654 --> 00:45:09,784
I wanted to dig back into it.

1089
00:45:09,884 --> 00:45:12,424
If they're going to send us free stuff, maybe wax time? Shout out.

1090
00:45:12,784 --> 00:45:16,464
No. But this is somebody that just stole it, basically, and they're selling it,

1091
00:45:16,864 --> 00:45:18,444
and Amazon's letting them do it anyway.

1092
00:45:18,484 --> 00:45:22,084
So I'm not going to return it, but I'm not going to open and celebrate an

1093
00:45:22,484 --> 00:45:26,404
unauthorized reissue that, so nobody's getting publishing rights or anything

1094
00:45:26,424 --> 00:45:26,764
like that.

1095
00:45:26,884 --> 00:45:28,784
Well, the second to last track on the original-

1096
00:45:28,864 --> 00:45:29,844
Oh, you didn't want to go deeper than that

1097
00:45:29,854 --> 00:45:30,524
... LP pressing. Not really.

1098
00:45:30,684 --> 00:45:31,304
The Boces.

1099
00:45:31,824 --> 00:45:33,224
Deboche and Deboce are on-

1100
00:45:33,484 --> 00:45:34,854
They're texting you right now. They're like, "Shut up."

1101
00:45:34,854 --> 00:45:35,664
Yeah, they're like, "Hey, yeah."

1102
00:45:36,884 --> 00:45:38,404
This is "Caravan." Juan Tizol's "Caravan."

1103
00:45:38,504 --> 00:45:38,604
Yeah.

1104
00:45:40,364 --> 00:45:41,824
Ooh. That's so good.

1105
00:45:45,344 --> 00:45:51,244
Oh,

1106
00:45:51,364 --> 00:45:51,684
man.

1107
00:46:20,644 --> 00:46:21,044
Yeah.

1108
00:46:42,124 --> 00:46:44,464
So great.

1109
00:47:05,904 --> 00:47:19,304
What's

1110
00:47:19,324 --> 00:47:19,864
Charles doing?

1111
00:47:23,504 --> 00:47:26,704
You can definitely feel the discomfort from Max Roach, I think.

1112
00:47:26,864 --> 00:47:27,744
Maybe I'm reading into this.

1113
00:47:27,764 --> 00:47:28,084
No, absolutely.

1114
00:47:28,124 --> 00:47:32,064
Because I don't know what they're, it feels to me when Mingus just start, it's

1115
00:47:32,084 --> 00:47:34,504
not like, oh, we're... Because that can be so exciting to do that.

1116
00:47:34,544 --> 00:47:37,744
They don't lock in on the idea of loosening up.

1117
00:47:37,834 --> 00:47:41,494
They have a different, and I think that Max Roach, the way he starts this-

1118
00:47:41,704 --> 00:47:41,944
Yeah

1119
00:47:42,124 --> 00:47:45,144
... is very, are we getting to categories yet?

1120
00:47:45,184 --> 00:47:45,934
Because that's where we sort of-

1121
00:47:45,934 --> 00:47:48,184
Yeah, let's get some categories. Oh, well, I want to hear the end, because there's

1122
00:47:48,244 --> 00:47:49,454
a good fu ending here, too.

1123
00:47:49,464 --> 00:47:50,034
Well, this is my-

1124
00:47:51,004 --> 00:47:51,094
Oh, this is good.

1125
00:47:51,104 --> 00:47:52,124
We've got to go back earlier.

1126
00:47:52,284 --> 00:47:52,424
Okay.

1127
00:47:52,544 --> 00:47:56,084
Okay, so my apex moment is actually the very beginning of this, if we could play

1128
00:47:56,104 --> 00:47:57,164
that just as a refresher.

1129
00:47:57,204 --> 00:47:58,404
This is also my apex moment.

1130
00:47:58,564 --> 00:47:58,864
Oh, it is?

1131
00:47:59,004 --> 00:47:59,804
Yeah, of the whole album.

1132
00:47:59,964 --> 00:48:00,104
Yeah.

1133
00:48:00,224 --> 00:48:00,524
Mine, too.

1134
00:48:01,944 --> 00:48:02,864
Because this is when they're all locked

1135
00:48:02,944 --> 00:48:06,834
in.I

1136
00:48:06,874 --> 00:48:08,874
love Duke's entrance. This is my apex moment.

1137
00:48:09,534 --> 00:48:10,274
That's great.

1138
00:48:12,494 --> 00:48:13,384
That's my favorite part of the whole-

1139
00:48:13,384 --> 00:48:15,714
The fact that Max Roach just sticks with what he's doing.

1140
00:48:15,754 --> 00:48:16,254
Yeah.

1141
00:48:16,274 --> 00:48:20,034
But the other half of my apex moment is the way this thing ends, and specifically,

1142
00:48:20,094 --> 00:48:21,754
the very last thing that Max Roach plays.

1143
00:48:22,834 --> 00:48:23,394
But I think

1144
00:48:26,914 --> 00:48:30,154
it kind of falls apart at the end, and maybe that's what they meant.

1145
00:48:37,814 --> 00:48:38,114
No, man.

1146
00:48:38,963 --> 00:48:40,194
Don't be scared.

1147
00:48:44,274 --> 00:48:45,514
Is there a form thing going on here, too?

1148
00:48:45,574 --> 00:48:47,754
I mean, Mingus is super menacing on this as well.

1149
00:48:47,834 --> 00:48:48,774
We talked about that at the beginning.

1150
00:48:52,414 --> 00:48:54,934
I think the form does get off on this.

1151
00:49:03,474 --> 00:49:05,654
They just

1152
00:49:06,834 --> 00:49:09,074
let Duke have

1153
00:49:13,394 --> 00:49:16,714
it. Now that's an F you. That's an F you.

1154
00:49:16,774 --> 00:49:17,294
Or it's a-

1155
00:49:17,914 --> 00:49:18,694
But it's a bookend.

1156
00:49:18,744 --> 00:49:18,773
It's a button.

1157
00:49:18,774 --> 00:49:20,254
I mean, architecturally, it's great.

1158
00:49:20,534 --> 00:49:24,394
But I just, at least in my mind, it's like Duke's got

1159
00:49:24,514 --> 00:49:24,994
this, "Da, da, da."

1160
00:49:25,014 --> 00:49:26,934
Look how much fun we're having listening to this album.

1161
00:49:27,074 --> 00:49:28,894
You're telling me this isn't a great piece of art?

1162
00:49:28,904 --> 00:49:29,254
He's using those great voice things.

1163
00:49:29,454 --> 00:49:30,554
All this discussion.

1164
00:49:30,714 --> 00:49:33,414
And then Mingus is jumping in. It's like, no, you don't need to do that.

1165
00:49:33,454 --> 00:49:36,534
I mean, you're Charles Mingus, so you can, of course, but it's not needed.

1166
00:49:36,584 --> 00:49:38,374
And then it's like, "Dong, da." It's ending.

1167
00:49:38,654 --> 00:49:41,644
And I can just see Max Roach sitting there and like, "All right.

1168
00:49:41,734 --> 00:49:44,884
Y'all done yet?" And then when they finally finish, he's like, "Da, da, da, da,

1169
00:49:44,884 --> 00:49:44,903
da."

1170
00:49:44,904 --> 00:49:45,894
"Just where I started it."

1171
00:49:46,174 --> 00:49:49,934
I honestly do want to know what's going on in Mingus's head as he's, on this

1172
00:49:50,034 --> 00:49:53,034
day in particular. What is he thinking when he's doing all this stuff?

1173
00:49:53,074 --> 00:49:53,724
There's some train wreck bass playing on this.

1174
00:49:53,724 --> 00:49:54,794
I mean, he's such a brilliant musician.

1175
00:49:54,814 --> 00:49:58,774
He can do whatever he wants on that bass, but there's such odd

1176
00:49:58,834 --> 00:50:00,394
choices throughout the whole thing.

1177
00:50:00,594 --> 00:50:04,474
I think there's some train wreck or car accident kind of moments, quite a

1178
00:50:04,514 --> 00:50:05,494
few of them on the bass.

1179
00:50:05,524 --> 00:50:05,533
Yeah.

1180
00:50:05,534 --> 00:50:07,294
And so there is that like, "Oh, my gosh.

1181
00:50:07,434 --> 00:50:08,204
What happened?"

1182
00:50:08,214 --> 00:50:08,404
You know what?

1183
00:50:09,074 --> 00:50:10,444
Like... Yeah. Sorry.

1184
00:50:10,464 --> 00:50:14,014
You know what problem with some of this is, too, is when there's acrimony, right?

1185
00:50:14,034 --> 00:50:16,183
When there's this kind of personal tension between-

1186
00:50:16,194 --> 00:50:16,264
Yeah

1187
00:50:16,264 --> 00:50:20,074
... the personalities. I don't know if you've ever been in bands like this.

1188
00:50:20,394 --> 00:50:21,533
I've been a part of bands like this.

1189
00:50:21,634 --> 00:50:25,404
I try to keep myself out of the mud of this kind of stuff- ... as much as I can.

1190
00:50:25,874 --> 00:50:25,954
Yeah.

1191
00:50:26,034 --> 00:50:28,264
Because I don't think it makes for good music or-

1192
00:50:28,314 --> 00:50:28,934
You don't like conflict

1193
00:50:28,994 --> 00:50:31,164
... a healthy soul. I don't mind conflict.

1194
00:50:31,194 --> 00:50:31,204
That's why I'm surprised you like this.

1195
00:50:31,204 --> 00:50:34,944
But no, I mean, we have conflict all the time, but when we have conflict, there's

1196
00:50:35,014 --> 00:50:37,054
usually grace involved, right?

1197
00:50:37,104 --> 00:50:37,113
Right.

1198
00:50:37,114 --> 00:50:39,054
And good faith. Like, I-

1199
00:50:39,084 --> 00:50:40,094
"Ba, da, da, da, da, da."

1200
00:50:40,214 --> 00:50:42,394
Okay. Maybe not on that. No, but you know what I mean.

1201
00:50:42,474 --> 00:50:44,314
If you and I have conflict-

1202
00:50:44,374 --> 00:50:44,444
Yeah

1203
00:50:44,444 --> 00:50:45,854
... which we often, which we're doing right now, right?

1204
00:50:46,254 --> 00:50:46,354
Right.

1205
00:50:46,434 --> 00:50:50,313
I know that you're coming at it from a place of good intentions.

1206
00:50:50,594 --> 00:50:52,414
There doesn't seem to be the case of that in this-

1207
00:50:52,444 --> 00:50:52,484
I know

1208
00:50:52,484 --> 00:50:52,994
... recording where-

1209
00:50:53,034 --> 00:50:53,123
I know

1210
00:50:53,294 --> 00:50:54,843
... there's not this grace given to each other.

1211
00:50:54,934 --> 00:50:57,424
So when they're not locked in, it's not like, "Oh, no, we're going to figure this

1212
00:50:57,494 --> 00:51:00,514
out. It's going to work out." That tension is something to be resolved.

1213
00:51:00,534 --> 00:51:02,454
It's just kind of like, "No, F you."

1214
00:51:02,474 --> 00:51:03,084
And it just feels-

1215
00:51:03,084 --> 00:51:03,354
We're going for it.

1216
00:51:03,434 --> 00:51:07,164
I agree. And it feels like, to me, Duke Ellington, for most of this record, if not

1217
00:51:07,334 --> 00:51:10,694
all of it. I mean, I haven't analyzed every minute, but I've listened to this a

1218
00:51:10,754 --> 00:51:14,503
lot. Duke Ellington and Max Roach are approaching

1219
00:51:14,554 --> 00:51:15,494
this like

1220
00:51:16,494 --> 00:51:18,534
a piano trio

1221
00:51:20,194 --> 00:51:20,834
recording.

1222
00:51:20,843 --> 00:51:21,114
Yep.

1223
00:51:21,214 --> 00:51:23,814
And the way of playing. And it's not to mean, like, "Oh, we're going to play like

1224
00:51:23,854 --> 00:51:27,494
the olden days." No, with all the possibilities that an

1225
00:51:27,534 --> 00:51:31,454
assemblage of genius players. It's like if somebody's writing for a string

1226
00:51:31,514 --> 00:51:33,854
quartet, they've been doing that for hundreds of years, but it doesn't mean you

1227
00:51:33,894 --> 00:51:36,194
can't bring something new to it. But that's the format.

1228
00:51:36,234 --> 00:51:39,354
The piano trio is one of the greatest, most balanced. You have a big band.

1229
00:51:39,414 --> 00:51:43,314
You have a concert band. You have a piano trio. You have a saxophone quartet.

1230
00:51:43,354 --> 00:51:45,914
So different artists define it, but the form is there.

1231
00:51:45,934 --> 00:51:48,104
And so you have a lot of latitude within that.

1232
00:51:48,154 --> 00:51:50,714
But they don't come together as a trio.

1233
00:51:50,814 --> 00:51:54,364
I think that's my thing on this. Now, had they recorded another day when they

1234
00:51:54,394 --> 00:51:55,084
weren't fighting,

1235
00:51:56,024 --> 00:51:59,714
had they done more takes? Again, production, I blame production on some of this.

1236
00:51:59,754 --> 00:52:02,894
It's like, no, you've got Max Roach, Charles Mingus, and Duke Ellington.

1237
00:52:02,934 --> 00:52:03,044
Yeah.

1238
00:52:03,074 --> 00:52:06,054
This is close to a great... I don't think this is far from a great record.

1239
00:52:06,294 --> 00:52:10,134
I just think because it's so much put up there as great, I'm like, no,

1240
00:52:10,274 --> 00:52:12,114
don't let the producers off the hook.

1241
00:52:12,194 --> 00:52:16,193
Don't let the artists off the hook, either, in terms of like, they could...

1242
00:52:16,754 --> 00:52:18,114
Don't you think those three could have made...

1243
00:52:18,134 --> 00:52:20,404
They were supposed to do another record. They were on contract to do another.

1244
00:52:20,404 --> 00:52:23,093
Yeah, they had a contract for two records, then they could not get them to agree to

1245
00:52:23,114 --> 00:52:24,233
another one because this was such a bust.

1246
00:52:24,274 --> 00:52:25,593
Yeah. So maybe it wasn't meant to be.

1247
00:52:25,663 --> 00:52:25,673
Yeah.

1248
00:52:25,674 --> 00:52:29,114
But I know that three incredible instruments could come together.

1249
00:52:29,214 --> 00:52:32,454
Now, is it going to be tight like the Oscar Peterson Trio playing together for-

1250
00:52:32,534 --> 00:52:32,734
No.

1251
00:52:32,974 --> 00:52:33,334
Yeah, no.

1252
00:52:33,374 --> 00:52:34,794
Rehearsing after the gigs every time.

1253
00:52:34,814 --> 00:52:34,884
No.

1254
00:52:34,914 --> 00:52:35,574
Spending time together.

1255
00:52:35,714 --> 00:52:35,983
But Duke can fall in-

1256
00:52:35,983 --> 00:52:36,544
Golfing together.

1257
00:52:36,684 --> 00:52:40,394
He can fall up into a situation like he does a week later and does pretty

1258
00:52:40,434 --> 00:52:40,974
well.

1259
00:52:40,983 --> 00:52:41,013
Yeah.

1260
00:52:41,014 --> 00:52:41,814
So I mean.

1261
00:52:42,494 --> 00:52:43,934
Before we get to the last track, "Solitude."

1262
00:52:44,034 --> 00:52:48,014
And, sorry, and Charles Mingus and Max Roach have proven on many

1263
00:52:48,074 --> 00:52:52,004
recordings. You talk about Massey Hall back in '40 whatever with Dizzy and

1264
00:52:52,214 --> 00:52:52,814
Charlie Parker.

1265
00:52:52,854 --> 00:52:53,054
Yeah.

1266
00:52:53,114 --> 00:52:55,764
They're locked in on that. So they know how to lock, I mean that you know.

1267
00:52:55,774 --> 00:52:56,684
Oh, yeah. I mean, in the

1268
00:52:57,814 --> 00:53:00,053
Charles Mingus quintet plus Max Roach, they're locked in.

1269
00:53:00,274 --> 00:53:03,874
Right. So to say that like, "Oh, no, on this, though, they're going for some other

1270
00:53:03,954 --> 00:53:05,204
style." No, they're just not locked in.

1271
00:53:05,204 --> 00:53:06,074
I don't know if they're going for it. It just wasn't happening.

1272
00:53:06,714 --> 00:53:06,804
What?

1273
00:53:07,954 --> 00:53:08,414
Wait, what'd you say?

1274
00:53:08,994 --> 00:53:12,274
Okay. He's pulling. I'm trying to lift him up. He's pulling me down.

1275
00:53:12,344 --> 00:53:16,044
No, but I think that we owe it to this music to say when it's not

1276
00:53:16,134 --> 00:53:20,094
happening. It's not a train wreck or disaster. I know I used the car.

1277
00:53:20,134 --> 00:53:22,844
There's parts of it, though, but that's okay. You know what I mean?

1278
00:53:23,134 --> 00:53:25,394
If everything is great, then nothing's great, right?

1279
00:53:25,404 --> 00:53:28,164
Peter, before we get to the last track, I just want to talk a little bit about

1280
00:53:28,194 --> 00:53:31,974
these last two songs, "Caravan" and "Solitude." I know that you

1281
00:53:32,074 --> 00:53:35,814
actually, I mean, if you want to get Peter Martin's take on this, you have lessons

1282
00:53:35,854 --> 00:53:36,794
on both those songs-

1283
00:53:36,874 --> 00:53:37,034
Yes

1284
00:53:37,074 --> 00:53:39,274
... on your course, Jazz Piano Method, here at Open Studio.

1285
00:53:39,354 --> 00:53:42,774
We talk about go to openstudiojazz.com for all your jazz lesson needs.

1286
00:53:42,874 --> 00:53:46,494
If you don't know, this podcast is presented by a platform that you

1287
00:53:46,554 --> 00:53:48,594
started, oh, some years ago-

1288
00:53:48,694 --> 00:53:48,834
Yeah

1289
00:53:49,074 --> 00:53:52,933
... in which you, me, great pianists like

1290
00:53:52,974 --> 00:53:56,394
Aaron Parks, Emmet Cohen, Fred Hersch, Sullivan Fortner-

1291
00:53:56,434 --> 00:53:56,474
Yeah

1292
00:53:56,483 --> 00:54:00,454
... Geoffrey Keezer, teach lessons on, make video courses on, do live

1293
00:54:00,534 --> 00:54:01,154
classes on.

1294
00:54:01,464 --> 00:54:01,473
Mm.

1295
00:54:01,474 --> 00:54:05,354
It's called Open Studio Jazz, and your course, the Jazz Piano Method,

1296
00:54:05,474 --> 00:54:07,534
is our crown jewel. You do a new lesson every week.

1297
00:54:07,794 --> 00:54:10,374
You've done several lessons on "Caravan." I'm pretty sure you've done at least one

1298
00:54:10,434 --> 00:54:11,314
lesson on "Solitude."

1299
00:54:11,394 --> 00:54:12,444
Yes. I have.

1300
00:54:12,444 --> 00:54:13,294
I know it's one of your faves.

1301
00:54:13,354 --> 00:54:13,654
I love it.

1302
00:54:14,394 --> 00:54:18,114
Incredible, that course. So if you want to get Peter Martin's take on this great

1303
00:54:18,174 --> 00:54:22,144
music, and by the way, a lot of Duke Ellington's music, in fact, we're currently in

1304
00:54:22,154 --> 00:54:23,734
the middle of the Duke Ellington season-

1305
00:54:23,754 --> 00:54:24,134
That's right

1306
00:54:24,144 --> 00:54:24,444
... at Open Studio.

1307
00:54:24,444 --> 00:54:25,004
Open Studio program.

1308
00:54:25,014 --> 00:54:28,674
This whole winter, January, February, March, we've been working on Duke Ellington's

1309
00:54:28,714 --> 00:54:32,694
music. I've been teaching Satin Doll and Take the A Train in

1310
00:54:32,794 --> 00:54:34,594
our beginner jazz piano course-

1311
00:54:34,654 --> 00:54:34,734
Mm

1312
00:54:34,934 --> 00:54:36,274
... called the Jazz Piano Foundations.

1313
00:54:36,354 --> 00:54:38,394
New weekly lesson from me, and our intermediate-

1314
00:54:38,474 --> 00:54:38,744
JPF

1315
00:54:38,774 --> 00:54:41,054
... our intermediate jazz piano course, Jazz Piano Expansions.

1316
00:54:41,334 --> 00:54:44,714
So if you want to learn more, you can start a 14-day trial by going to

1317
00:54:44,774 --> 00:54:48,534
openstudiojazz.com/yhi. That's You'll Hear It,

1318
00:54:48,634 --> 00:54:52,434
YHI. Openstudiojazz.com/yhi for

1319
00:54:52,854 --> 00:54:54,324
your jazz lessons.

1320
00:54:54,354 --> 00:54:56,634
And you said a 14-day trial.

1321
00:54:56,804 --> 00:54:56,833
Yeah.

1322
00:54:56,834 --> 00:54:57,974
That sounds like it might be free.

1323
00:54:57,984 --> 00:54:58,354
It is free.

1324
00:54:58,394 --> 00:54:59,044
During the trial period.

1325
00:54:59,094 --> 00:55:03,084
A free trial. So, it's totally risk-free. You go, you check it out.

1326
00:55:03,114 --> 00:55:04,504
If you don't like us, you don't like what we're talking about-

1327
00:55:04,514 --> 00:55:05,234
Can I tell you a secret?

1328
00:55:05,294 --> 00:55:05,434
Yeah.

1329
00:55:05,714 --> 00:55:09,514
Okay. Is this a social Open Studio bubble here?

1330
00:55:09,554 --> 00:55:10,534
Well, now turn that-

1331
00:55:10,614 --> 00:55:10,864
No one else can hear.

1332
00:55:10,894 --> 00:55:11,394
Turn the microphone.

1333
00:55:12,334 --> 00:55:16,014
It's a 14-day free trial, and then we actually have a 30-day satisfaction

1334
00:55:16,074 --> 00:55:17,944
guarantee. So 30 plus 14-

1335
00:55:17,944 --> 00:55:19,024
Don't give the store away, Peter.

1336
00:55:19,134 --> 00:55:22,454
No, but I'm just saying, we want people that love your

1337
00:55:22,814 --> 00:55:24,574
lessons, love my lessons, love somebody's.

1338
00:55:25,274 --> 00:55:28,124
Just like not every album's for everybody, not every teacher, but we got some of

1339
00:55:28,154 --> 00:55:30,514
the great ones that are putting stuff out there.

1340
00:55:30,554 --> 00:55:31,574
But we only want people that-

1341
00:55:31,614 --> 00:55:31,754
Yeah

1342
00:55:31,774 --> 00:55:33,324
... this is a good fit. So come on in-

1343
00:55:33,434 --> 00:55:33,714
Also-

1344
00:55:33,724 --> 00:55:34,454
... it's totally risk-free

1345
00:55:34,474 --> 00:55:36,834
... by the way, we've got an incredible community of musicians there.

1346
00:55:36,894 --> 00:55:39,014
We've got this community called The Hang-

1347
00:55:39,294 --> 00:55:39,344
Yes

1348
00:55:39,354 --> 00:55:42,054
... where we have all of these discussion groups going on.

1349
00:55:42,174 --> 00:55:43,354
Oh, we're going to have a discussion about that.

1350
00:55:43,374 --> 00:55:43,484
Grad groups.

1351
00:55:43,494 --> 00:55:44,494
I know that's going to happen.

1352
00:55:44,894 --> 00:55:48,314
Oh, there's arguments about albums, just like we're having here today.

1353
00:55:48,724 --> 00:55:48,773
Yeah.

1354
00:55:48,774 --> 00:55:52,754
Again, go to openstudiojazz.com/yhi to start your 14-day free

1355
00:55:52,834 --> 00:55:54,174
trial. Back to the show.

1356
00:55:55,214 --> 00:55:55,614
Okay, Peter.

1357
00:55:55,864 --> 00:55:55,994
Yep.

1358
00:55:56,434 --> 00:55:56,894
Last track.

1359
00:55:57,254 --> 00:55:57,264
Yep.

1360
00:55:57,284 --> 00:55:57,674
Solitude.

1361
00:55:58,894 --> 00:56:01,154
One of the greatest jazz standards of all time.

1362
00:56:01,204 --> 00:56:05,194
Again, there are more tracks on the current Apple Music, Spotify, CD version of

1363
00:56:05,254 --> 00:56:05,344
this-

1364
00:56:05,374 --> 00:56:05,394
Yeah

1365
00:56:05,404 --> 00:56:08,494
... but this is the original LP ender, and I have a hot take about this as well.

1366
00:56:08,554 --> 00:56:08,794
Okay.

1367
00:56:10,804 --> 00:56:11,304
Ooh.

1368
00:57:03,754 --> 00:57:07,334
It's good.

1369
00:57:23,134 --> 00:57:24,234
Voice leading on that chord-

1370
00:57:24,274 --> 00:57:24,384
Mm

1371
00:57:24,384 --> 00:57:25,074
... was so gorgeous.

1372
00:57:26,374 --> 00:57:28,094
The correct change. Well, he's the composer.

1373
00:57:29,854 --> 00:57:30,974
Did you say the correct changes?

1374
00:57:31,134 --> 00:57:31,254
Yeah.

1375
00:57:31,354 --> 00:57:31,654
Oh, yeah.

1376
00:57:31,694 --> 00:57:32,434
He's the composer.

1377
00:57:34,154 --> 00:57:34,224
Mm.

1378
00:57:45,974 --> 00:57:49,703
Ah, too

1379
00:57:49,734 --> 00:57:50,754
good. Pitchy.

1380
00:57:57,434 --> 00:58:15,994
Mingus

1381
00:58:16,014 --> 00:58:18,234
doesn't need to be playing that. It's not needed.

1382
00:58:20,634 --> 00:58:22,254
It was incredible solo piano playing.

1383
00:58:46,134 --> 00:58:55,064
Mm.

1384
00:58:55,114 --> 00:58:59,494
Amazing.

1385
00:59:04,974 --> 00:59:05,954
It's so pretty.

1386
00:59:06,114 --> 00:59:07,734
Great orchestrator on solo piano.

1387
00:59:09,514 --> 00:59:11,194
I think this track should have just been solo piano.

1388
00:59:12,614 --> 00:59:12,874
Ah.

1389
00:59:25,014 --> 00:59:26,674
It goes from an A,

1390
00:59:28,874 --> 00:59:31,854
I'd say A minus because of the out of tune piano, but ah.

1391
00:59:32,754 --> 00:59:33,134
Ah!

1392
00:59:34,874 --> 00:59:37,074
Pitchy. Incredible ideas.

1393
00:59:37,174 --> 00:59:41,154
This is pedestrian like rhythm

1394
00:59:41,194 --> 00:59:42,854
section. It's fine, but it's not...

1395
00:59:44,054 --> 00:59:44,454
That's nice.

1396
00:59:45,894 --> 00:59:48,494
Rim shot. Mingus can put together a nice little phrase.

1397
00:59:48,914 --> 00:59:49,654
Okay.

1398
00:59:49,674 --> 00:59:53,054
It's just like them coming in and walking this far into it,

1399
00:59:53,874 --> 00:59:56,254
makes it... Hold up. Why are you stopping it now?

1400
00:59:56,354 --> 00:59:57,794
Does it feel this way to you, too?

1401
00:59:57,834 --> 00:59:59,194
Oh, just move it on.

1402
00:59:59,234 --> 01:00:00,514
This is the last track. How are we moving on to?

1403
01:00:00,834 --> 01:00:01,174
No, move it to the next.

1404
01:00:01,204 --> 01:00:01,724
No, but I'm saying,

1405
01:00:03,434 --> 01:00:06,434
can't the playing be great, and we can say overall the track doesn't

1406
01:00:06,514 --> 01:00:10,024
quite do it? There's better versions of Duke playing this solo piano.

1407
01:00:10,054 --> 01:00:11,284
There's a lot of versions of Duke playing this.

1408
01:00:11,314 --> 01:00:13,874
Yeah. And so, when they come in,

1409
01:00:14,834 --> 01:00:18,194
it's just, I don't know, it doesn't add, and they're walking, the entrances are

1410
01:00:18,254 --> 01:00:21,734
weird. Mingus is trying to catch some of those notes at the brit, but he doesn't

1411
01:00:21,774 --> 01:00:22,634
need to do that.

1412
01:00:22,744 --> 01:00:23,294
He definitely-

1413
01:00:23,614 --> 01:00:26,123
It almost sounded like they were rehearsing or, and then we can be like, "Oh, it's

1414
01:00:26,154 --> 01:00:27,834
the magic of the first take."

1415
01:00:27,894 --> 01:00:28,484
They didn't rehearse it. They didn't rehearse it.

1416
01:00:28,494 --> 01:00:30,750
I'm like, "No, do another take."Sorry.

1417
01:00:31,630 --> 01:00:32,810
You should have produced this album.

1418
01:00:34,870 --> 01:00:35,150
Well.

1419
01:00:35,230 --> 01:00:36,610
You look at him, he's like, "Yeah, maybe."

1420
01:00:36,650 --> 01:00:37,629
I was like, "Well, yeah." No, I wouldn't rock.

1421
01:00:37,690 --> 01:00:38,880
So this, but I want to talk about-

1422
01:00:38,890 --> 01:00:41,250
Do you like it when they go to that walking?

1423
01:00:41,830 --> 01:00:44,350
It takes a minute for it to get going. There are some great moments.

1424
01:00:44,370 --> 01:00:46,010
I'll play to the part when it gets going after.

1425
01:00:46,030 --> 01:00:46,490
Oh, okay.

1426
01:00:46,730 --> 01:00:48,990
I think we passed. We got to listen to the end of this, though, because this is the

1427
01:00:49,390 --> 01:00:51,930
big Mingus, the final F you at the end of the album, man.

1428
01:01:00,330 --> 01:01:00,390
Oh,

1429
01:01:10,610 --> 01:01:11,790
this is great.

1430
01:01:13,670 --> 01:01:17,230
But no, you don't have to imitate what he's doing.

1431
01:01:26,010 --> 01:01:34,050
Then

1432
01:01:34,060 --> 01:01:35,049
he forces them to the...

1433
01:01:37,110 --> 01:01:37,570
To the one.

1434
01:01:37,650 --> 01:01:37,930
Yeah.

1435
01:01:38,430 --> 01:01:38,560
Yeah.

1436
01:01:38,930 --> 01:01:40,670
Come on, man. I mean, it's hilarious.

1437
01:01:40,690 --> 01:01:41,790
You don't think that's fun?

1438
01:01:42,270 --> 01:01:42,880
I mean, it's-

1439
01:01:42,950 --> 01:01:45,750
What, we're not having fun anymore, Peter?

1440
01:01:45,810 --> 01:01:49,510
Oh, I'm having a lot of fun. But he's definitely saying F you, right?

1441
01:01:49,650 --> 01:01:50,590
Can we establish that?

1442
01:01:50,790 --> 01:01:51,030
No.

1443
01:01:51,470 --> 01:01:55,110
I just love your theory that every song in this album ends with a little bit of a

1444
01:01:55,150 --> 01:01:55,830
musical F you.

1445
01:01:55,890 --> 01:01:55,900
It is.

1446
01:01:55,900 --> 01:01:58,170
I don't know if it's true. Some of it just feel like buttons.

1447
01:01:58,670 --> 01:01:59,190
But I do-

1448
01:01:59,210 --> 01:02:00,550
They're F you buttons. You know-

1449
01:02:00,730 --> 01:02:01,790
Or just like it's kind of-

1450
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:02,290
We all have stuff that it's-

1451
01:02:02,340 --> 01:02:04,600
... it's kind of like falling apart a little bit, which is-

1452
01:02:04,710 --> 01:02:04,970
Yeah

1453
01:02:05,050 --> 01:02:07,080
... kind of the theme of the album, is it's a-

1454
01:02:07,110 --> 01:02:10,530
But a song like that, it could've been cool if they come together and be like,

1455
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:11,230
"We're just going to

1456
01:02:12,090 --> 01:02:14,330
play some blue. We're going to play free.

1457
01:02:14,470 --> 01:02:16,910
We're just going to make music." That would be so interesting.

1458
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:17,090
Yeah.

1459
01:02:17,110 --> 01:02:19,080
But you're playing "Solitude," one of his most beloved.

1460
01:02:19,390 --> 01:02:23,100
And Du plays this beautiful, as he would do, almost like written out

1461
01:02:23,210 --> 01:02:27,010
sounding, just not jazzy or lounge piano, just beautiful.

1462
01:02:27,020 --> 01:02:27,049
Yeah.

1463
01:02:27,050 --> 01:02:28,050
Except for... You know what I mean?

1464
01:02:28,090 --> 01:02:30,510
And then you come to that, and it's just kind of like, hmm.

1465
01:02:30,530 --> 01:02:33,650
But we're supposed to be like, "Oh my God, this is great because it's weird."

1466
01:02:33,830 --> 01:02:35,000
So is "Solitude" your desert island track?

1467
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:37,350
No, dude, give me a break. This is weird.

1468
01:02:38,090 --> 01:02:40,910
You're projecting. Is "Solitude" your desert island? What's your desert island?

1469
01:02:41,670 --> 01:02:43,050
Before we get to that, I want us to say this.

1470
01:02:43,330 --> 01:02:45,330
This is a difficult entry point to jazz.

1471
01:02:45,430 --> 01:02:48,410
That's my problem with being like, "This is one of the greatest jazz albums." I

1472
01:02:48,450 --> 01:02:50,609
feel like it's just like anything.

1473
01:02:50,670 --> 01:02:52,590
Like, oh, you want to get into French food.

1474
01:02:52,610 --> 01:02:56,500
You're not going to go to the fussiest thing. Oh, try this gist and this and this.

1475
01:02:57,230 --> 01:02:57,859
Okay, counterpoint.

1476
01:02:57,859 --> 01:03:01,160
And then, "Oh, I don't like French food." No, it's like give something that's-

1477
01:03:01,250 --> 01:03:02,000
What if you're a poser,

1478
01:03:02,910 --> 01:03:05,260
and you want to be like, "I'm so into 'Money Jungle.'" You know what I mean?

1479
01:03:05,310 --> 01:03:07,359
That's what I think is happening. I think this is an emperor has no clothes

1480
01:03:07,359 --> 01:03:07,389
situation.

1481
01:03:07,390 --> 01:03:10,350
It's a great entry if you're a poser. I'm just kidding.

1482
01:03:10,490 --> 01:03:10,690
Okay.

1483
01:03:10,770 --> 01:03:13,490
No, I think it just depends on what you like, man. It just depends on your taste.

1484
01:03:13,550 --> 01:03:13,740
Ah, man.

1485
01:03:13,740 --> 01:03:14,359
No, I know you don't agree.

1486
01:03:14,359 --> 01:03:15,590
No, we're taste makers, my friend.

1487
01:03:15,650 --> 01:03:15,859
I will-

1488
01:03:15,930 --> 01:03:17,530
We're taste makers. We're curators.

1489
01:03:17,540 --> 01:03:18,590
Oh, okay. What is your-

1490
01:03:18,610 --> 01:03:19,770
We have a responsibility.

1491
01:03:19,850 --> 01:03:22,480
What is your desert island track? Are there any tracks that you would take from

1492
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:22,509
this album?

1493
01:03:22,510 --> 01:03:26,170
Oh, you're going to your first NBA game. Let me tell you what's exciting, defense.

1494
01:03:27,170 --> 01:03:27,710
Let's talk about-

1495
01:03:27,830 --> 01:03:28,790
Defense wins championships

1496
01:03:28,810 --> 01:03:29,090
Or...

1497
01:03:30,310 --> 01:03:31,950
No, listen. No, don't look at the dunk.

1498
01:03:32,310 --> 01:03:36,150
Let's concentrate on the triangle offense. That's fun.

1499
01:03:36,490 --> 01:03:37,400
Let's analyze that.

1500
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:38,650
What is this, 1994? Come on.

1501
01:03:39,150 --> 01:03:39,610
Sorry.

1502
01:03:40,430 --> 01:03:41,610
Do you have a desert island track?

1503
01:03:42,370 --> 01:03:42,570
Um.

1504
01:03:42,650 --> 01:03:43,600
Is it "Take the 'Coltrane"?

1505
01:03:46,250 --> 01:03:49,750
I mean, "Solitude." There's no track on here

1506
01:03:49,870 --> 01:03:53,710
that... I mean, "Solitude," but there's so many other versions of this

1507
01:03:53,770 --> 01:03:57,540
I'd rather hear. I mean, maybe "Fleurette Africaine," because this

1508
01:03:57,590 --> 01:03:57,780
is-

1509
01:03:57,910 --> 01:03:58,060
It's really great.

1510
01:03:58,060 --> 01:04:01,310
But you know what? That's such a stunning composition.

1511
01:04:01,430 --> 01:04:01,550
Yeah.

1512
01:04:01,750 --> 01:04:03,310
This is not my favorite version of this.

1513
01:04:03,490 --> 01:04:03,550
Oh.

1514
01:04:03,610 --> 01:04:06,030
Could I call an audible and have us play a little something?

1515
01:04:06,370 --> 01:04:06,490
Sure.

1516
01:04:06,610 --> 01:04:07,450
Norah Jones

1517
01:04:08,270 --> 01:04:08,470
playing.

1518
01:04:08,620 --> 01:04:08,629
What?

1519
01:04:08,630 --> 01:04:12,010
Yeah, I mean, you know what? Because it's with Norah Jones, who I love,

1520
01:04:12,330 --> 01:04:14,950
piano. John Patitucci, somebody I love.

1521
01:04:15,090 --> 01:04:17,410
I believe it's John Patitucci on it, and Wayne Shorter.

1522
01:04:18,430 --> 01:04:21,690
And this is not about this, I just think it's

1523
01:04:23,150 --> 01:04:24,370
an interesting version of

1524
01:04:24,410 --> 01:04:28,070
it.

1525
01:04:30,390 --> 01:04:30,870
Yeah, Norah.

1526
01:04:30,890 --> 01:04:33,370
What is this song? Oh, it's "Blade." "Brian Blade."

1527
01:04:33,419 --> 01:04:33,970
"Brian Blade," yeah.

1528
01:04:35,050 --> 01:04:35,730
Patitucci on bass?

1529
01:04:35,810 --> 01:04:36,990
Mm-hmm.

1530
01:04:40,330 --> 01:04:40,570
Oh.

1531
01:04:45,010 --> 01:04:47,050
We got to do some Norah Jones, man. That'd be a fun episode.

1532
01:04:47,150 --> 01:04:47,329
Yeah.

1533
01:04:48,209 --> 01:04:49,190
Norah, great pianist.

1534
01:05:00,090 --> 01:05:00,990
All right. Yeah, no, I feel you.

1535
01:05:01,690 --> 01:05:01,790
Yeah.

1536
01:05:02,730 --> 01:05:04,690
And so that's my thing of like, that would probably-

1537
01:05:04,700 --> 01:05:05,090
So that's your desert island?

1538
01:05:05,300 --> 01:05:08,130
Well, no. I mean, "Fleurette Africaine." I mean, from the "Money Jungle" version would

1539
01:05:08,210 --> 01:05:08,970
probably be my one.

1540
01:05:09,070 --> 01:05:09,210
Okay.

1541
01:05:09,450 --> 01:05:11,120
There's some places in there where I'm like, "What?" But-

1542
01:05:11,190 --> 01:05:12,950
I'm going "Wigwise." I just love this.

1543
01:05:14,570 --> 01:05:15,830
And to me, this is what comes to mind.

1544
01:05:15,910 --> 01:05:17,240
Great song. "Money Jungle."

1545
01:05:17,410 --> 01:05:18,130
This is "Money Jungle."

1546
01:05:18,310 --> 01:05:18,470
Yeah.

1547
01:05:18,970 --> 01:05:20,110
Ah.

1548
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:20,610
Ah. What's going on?

1549
01:05:21,790 --> 01:05:23,000
That's a good call. That would be my second one.

1550
01:05:23,010 --> 01:05:25,510
I think both of our apex moments was the intro to "Caravan."

1551
01:05:26,490 --> 01:05:27,160
Bespoke playlist.

1552
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:27,520
And the ending.

1553
01:05:27,590 --> 01:05:27,950
What do you got?

1554
01:05:30,370 --> 01:05:32,770
Records that should not be on essential lists.

1555
01:05:33,310 --> 01:05:33,470
Okay.

1556
01:05:33,630 --> 01:05:34,410
Jazz records.

1557
01:05:34,970 --> 01:05:35,100
So weird.

1558
01:05:35,110 --> 01:05:35,670
I just made that up.

1559
01:05:35,690 --> 01:05:39,390
That's a weird playlist to make. I have jazz super groups, because it's kind of a

1560
01:05:39,410 --> 01:05:39,770
super group.

1561
01:05:40,170 --> 01:05:40,230
Yeah.

1562
01:05:40,850 --> 01:05:41,270
Okay. So,

1563
01:05:42,650 --> 01:05:43,950
do you have any quibble bits?

1564
01:05:44,690 --> 01:05:44,770
No.

1565
01:05:45,750 --> 01:05:48,469
I couldn't find any. Oh, we got...

1566
01:05:51,190 --> 01:05:51,590
Oh, my.

1567
01:05:52,650 --> 01:05:55,370
Is there anybody here still producing this? I think we're alone in the studio.

1568
01:05:55,830 --> 01:05:58,250
Do I have any quibble bits? Yes, the production.

1569
01:06:00,510 --> 01:06:02,670
The whole episode has been one play.

1570
01:06:02,690 --> 01:06:04,110
No, I hope I... Man, I feel-

1571
01:06:04,250 --> 01:06:04,360
It's not even a bit.

1572
01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:06,480
I've never gone negative like this. I feel bad, man.

1573
01:06:06,510 --> 01:06:07,720
No. Can I just say, Peter-

1574
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:07,841
I just, I want-

1575
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:09,690
... I'm so proud of you for actually being-

1576
01:06:10,150 --> 01:06:10,770
I'm just being honest

1577
01:06:11,070 --> 01:06:13,490
... honest and giving your actual opinion on how you feel about it.

1578
01:06:13,510 --> 01:06:13,770
I mean, look.

1579
01:06:13,779 --> 01:06:13,990
It's great.

1580
01:06:14,170 --> 01:06:16,250
We have so much, and we've explored the great art.

1581
01:06:16,290 --> 01:06:17,350
I mean, Max Roach is someone-

1582
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:18,470
You're definitely going to get some hate for this.

1583
01:06:18,790 --> 01:06:22,490
Well, no, that's fine. I mean, all three of these great artists

1584
01:06:22,610 --> 01:06:24,170
have other things that I love.

1585
01:06:24,210 --> 01:06:24,830
For sure.

1586
01:06:25,390 --> 01:06:27,750
And so, like Max Roach, we've probably talked about the least.

1587
01:06:27,810 --> 01:06:29,150
We have, but we haven't done, like we got to-

1588
01:06:29,430 --> 01:06:29,440
Oh

1589
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:30,640
... we're going to do Max Roach and Clifford Brown.

1590
01:06:30,650 --> 01:06:33,750
I mean, that was his thing almost. I mean, it was a partnership with Clifford

1591
01:06:33,770 --> 01:06:35,900
Brown. Some of the greatest recordings ever made of any genre were-

1592
01:06:35,930 --> 01:06:38,120
I mean, we said it at the top, Max Roach is one of the greatest drummers that ever

1593
01:06:38,150 --> 01:06:38,630
lived.

1594
01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:41,950
Yeah. I just feel like it's a disservice if we go, and look, if this is like,

1595
01:06:42,290 --> 01:06:46,190
what's the thing of don't dog out somebody's doggy bite or whatever that is.

1596
01:06:46,250 --> 01:06:47,450
Don't yuck on someone else's yum.

1597
01:06:47,710 --> 01:06:48,070
Yeah.

1598
01:06:48,100 --> 01:06:48,109
Yeah.

1599
01:06:48,110 --> 01:06:49,150
That's another way of saying it.

1600
01:06:50,110 --> 01:06:52,130
So if you love this, this is great. I would just say,

1601
01:06:53,030 --> 01:06:55,750
yeah. Anyway, don't love it just because you're supposed to, because you have

1602
01:06:55,790 --> 01:06:58,790
license. You know what you're supposed to love? Stuff that you love, okay?

1603
01:06:59,694 --> 01:07:01,154
My quibble bit is that I-

1604
01:07:01,394 --> 01:07:02,194
Well, I think it's my quibble bit.

1605
01:07:02,254 --> 01:07:02,814
Oh, what's your quibble bit?

1606
01:07:02,974 --> 01:07:03,673
I'm just kidding. We can both.

1607
01:07:03,694 --> 01:07:04,594
We know what your quibble bits are.

1608
01:07:04,634 --> 01:07:05,034
Yeah.

1609
01:07:05,094 --> 01:07:08,574
My quibble bit is that I honestly do think this is best

1610
01:07:08,614 --> 01:07:10,974
experienced with just the original seven tracks.

1611
01:07:11,014 --> 01:07:14,954
Now, there are four other tracks that have been on subsequent releases since the

1612
01:07:14,994 --> 01:07:16,974
original LP, and they're all good.

1613
01:07:17,474 --> 01:07:21,254
But because this is so intense, it's such an experience,

1614
01:07:21,394 --> 01:07:22,854
it is very

1615
01:07:23,734 --> 01:07:25,834
emotionally draining, this album, a little bit.

1616
01:07:25,874 --> 01:07:26,114
Yeah.

1617
01:07:26,604 --> 01:07:26,653
That-

1618
01:07:26,654 --> 01:07:26,914
I agree

1619
01:07:27,034 --> 01:07:30,654
... the 30 minutes, the seven tracks, ending with "Solitude,"

1620
01:07:31,134 --> 01:07:34,414
I think is the key to this. I've been listening to this in the buildup of this

1621
01:07:34,454 --> 01:07:38,134
episode in that way. And I listened to it once all the way

1622
01:07:38,214 --> 01:07:40,414
through, including all of the alternate takes and everything-

1623
01:07:40,474 --> 01:07:40,484
Yeah, me too

1624
01:07:40,484 --> 01:07:40,754
... which I-

1625
01:07:40,814 --> 01:07:41,584
Oh, I didn't do it with all the alternate

1626
01:07:41,614 --> 01:07:42,334
... I never liked those.

1627
01:07:42,994 --> 01:07:43,004
No.

1628
01:07:43,014 --> 01:07:46,494
But I really appreciate the original sort of

1629
01:07:46,554 --> 01:07:50,314
seven-track version of this that is shorter, and it is a little bit more of

1630
01:07:50,394 --> 01:07:53,614
an intense but thrilling short experience.

1631
01:07:53,774 --> 01:07:54,544
So that's my quibble bit.

1632
01:07:54,994 --> 01:07:58,694
I agree. I'm a little surprised that your biggest quibble bit is that it's not

1633
01:07:58,734 --> 01:08:02,554
presented. I mean, I think there's bigger quibble bits than that, but I do...

1634
01:08:03,054 --> 01:08:04,244
I will say this, the way-

1635
01:08:04,493 --> 01:08:04,814
The song-

1636
01:08:04,874 --> 01:08:07,894
... ending on "Solitude" is genius.

1637
01:08:07,994 --> 01:08:08,064
Yeah.

1638
01:08:08,234 --> 01:08:10,654
There's so much genius built into the compositions, I think.

1639
01:08:10,694 --> 01:08:10,794
Yeah.

1640
01:08:11,074 --> 01:08:14,854
That, to me, saves it. But the way that it ends, at the end of "Solitude," it's

1641
01:08:14,914 --> 01:08:17,754
actually appropriate. That kind of represents this record to me.

1642
01:08:17,815 --> 01:08:18,554
Like, it's so very-

1643
01:08:18,614 --> 01:08:19,584
Mingus barges in on the last-

1644
01:08:19,624 --> 01:08:19,794
Yeah.

1645
01:08:19,815 --> 01:08:20,105
Yeah, yeah.

1646
01:08:20,134 --> 01:08:21,315
It's a very honest-

1647
01:08:21,364 --> 01:08:21,405
Yeah

1648
01:08:21,454 --> 01:08:25,275
... like, there's acrimony in this.

1649
01:08:25,494 --> 01:08:29,355
It's just to me, it's so difficult because "Solitude" is like the least

1650
01:08:29,454 --> 01:08:32,094
acrimonious song written, maybe.

1651
01:08:32,134 --> 01:08:32,144
Yeah.

1652
01:08:32,144 --> 01:08:32,315
You know?

1653
01:08:32,355 --> 01:08:33,094
Well, just the way-

1654
01:08:33,184 --> 01:08:33,724
Now, it's very duking

1655
01:08:33,724 --> 01:08:35,144
... Duke starts it, too, is very-

1656
01:08:35,254 --> 01:08:35,485
Yeah

1657
01:08:35,554 --> 01:08:36,105
... interesting and beautiful.

1658
01:08:36,105 --> 01:08:37,054
And "Fleurette Africaine."

1659
01:08:37,084 --> 01:08:37,113
Yeah.

1660
01:08:37,114 --> 01:08:38,914
One of the... I mean, so there's so much beauty here.

1661
01:08:38,934 --> 01:08:41,304
It's just a weird kind of combination.

1662
01:08:41,374 --> 01:08:43,664
I have other quibble bits, mostly with the sound quality, but we talked about that.

1663
01:08:43,714 --> 01:08:44,594
Sound quality's poor.

1664
01:08:44,634 --> 01:08:44,794
Yeah, yeah.

1665
01:08:44,804 --> 01:08:46,134
And the piano tuning is poor.

1666
01:08:46,155 --> 01:08:46,275
Poor.

1667
01:08:46,284 --> 01:08:46,945
Did I mention that?

1668
01:08:46,994 --> 01:08:48,714
Snob-o-meter. How snobby is this album?

1669
01:08:48,775 --> 01:08:50,014
I mean, this is a 10.

1670
01:08:50,275 --> 01:08:50,784
I love it.

1671
01:08:50,974 --> 01:08:51,235
I think.

1672
01:08:51,244 --> 01:08:52,324
Oh, he's off the five. I have it-

1673
01:08:52,324 --> 01:08:53,674
Although it may be a one, actually.

1674
01:08:53,754 --> 01:08:54,235
No, no, it's a 10.

1675
01:08:54,275 --> 01:08:54,614
Okay, it's a 10.

1676
01:08:54,754 --> 01:08:56,754
I have it as a nine. I think it's incredibly snobby.

1677
01:08:56,894 --> 01:08:59,914
I do think this is, if you're actually genuinely trying to

1678
01:08:59,974 --> 01:09:02,434
understand jazz, this is a tough entry.

1679
01:09:02,695 --> 01:09:02,704
Yeah.

1680
01:09:02,735 --> 01:09:04,485
This would be a really hard-

1681
01:09:04,514 --> 01:09:06,174
An irresponsible entry, a little bit.

1682
01:09:06,754 --> 01:09:07,355
Yeah.

1683
01:09:07,454 --> 01:09:10,674
I think it's, but it's almost a faux, as in F-A-U-X,

1684
01:09:10,735 --> 01:09:12,735
snob 10.

1685
01:09:13,374 --> 01:09:13,534
I don't-

1686
01:09:13,544 --> 01:09:13,735
That's the way.

1687
01:09:13,775 --> 01:09:16,614
Again, I think it's totally subjective, man.

1688
01:09:16,624 --> 01:09:16,654
Okay.

1689
01:09:16,655 --> 01:09:20,634
I think there are people who genuinely love this album for totally valid reasons.

1690
01:09:20,775 --> 01:09:21,494
I like this album.

1691
01:09:21,554 --> 01:09:22,034
But to think it's-

1692
01:09:22,044 --> 01:09:25,275
It's not one of my favorites, but I do like listening to it.

1693
01:09:25,355 --> 01:09:27,764
I have loved listening to it in the past, and there's something-

1694
01:09:27,775 --> 01:09:28,605
Sorry, did I ruin it for you?

1695
01:09:28,674 --> 01:09:29,054
No, no, no.

1696
01:09:29,114 --> 01:09:29,434
It's just-

1697
01:09:29,474 --> 01:09:33,254
When I was younger, I really was like, I was a little bit more of like, "Oh, this

1698
01:09:33,315 --> 01:09:35,434
is so cool that they're doing this crazy stuff."

1699
01:09:36,454 --> 01:09:38,074
Let's start over at the beginning. Let me give it a different...

1700
01:09:38,254 --> 01:09:41,874
Can we listen to the first song again? I think I need to listen to this.

1701
01:09:41,974 --> 01:09:43,235
Yeah, let's start over. No,

1702
01:09:44,454 --> 01:09:47,754
is it better than KOB, Kind of Blue? Is it better than Miles Davis' Kind of Blue?

1703
01:09:47,914 --> 01:09:48,474
I'm going to put-

1704
01:09:48,514 --> 01:09:48,994
Now, usually it's even.

1705
01:09:49,634 --> 01:09:52,714
No. I've occasionally... No, come on. That was like Inner Visions or something.

1706
01:09:52,775 --> 01:09:53,275
Come on, man. There's no way.

1707
01:09:53,315 --> 01:09:54,254
Is it better than Kind of Blue?

1708
01:09:54,334 --> 01:09:55,254
No, it's not.

1709
01:09:55,514 --> 01:09:56,714
No. I have nah.

1710
01:09:57,034 --> 01:10:00,854
But would the ultimate jazz snob say yes just because-

1711
01:10:01,314 --> 01:10:02,614
I'm sure some people like it more

1712
01:10:02,634 --> 01:10:02,664
... it's not clean.

1713
01:10:02,694 --> 01:10:02,954
Yeah.

1714
01:10:03,014 --> 01:10:05,034
Yeah. Which is fine. Don't yuck on my yum.

1715
01:10:05,134 --> 01:10:05,814
Accoutrements.

1716
01:10:06,634 --> 01:10:08,234
I mean, accoutrements, I'm going to go nine.

1717
01:10:08,494 --> 01:10:10,114
Yeah, I got eight. I think it's really strong.

1718
01:10:10,174 --> 01:10:12,034
I would be damn near 10 if I didn't have the-

1719
01:10:12,174 --> 01:10:12,884
Almost a perfect album

1720
01:10:12,884 --> 01:10:14,474
... the waxed version, I might...

1721
01:10:14,834 --> 01:10:17,494
I actually can't think of a better title than Money Jungle. It's incredible.

1722
01:10:17,554 --> 01:10:20,704
Yeah, and I mean, the image, and like-

1723
01:10:20,714 --> 01:10:21,074
Poetry

1724
01:10:21,254 --> 01:10:24,954
... it does exhibit a little bit of the acrimony that was in the studio, but just a

1725
01:10:25,014 --> 01:10:26,134
little. I mean, you don't want it to be

1726
01:10:27,194 --> 01:10:29,894
like a YouTube thumbnail. Ah! You know, at each other's throats.

1727
01:10:29,934 --> 01:10:30,534
What do you got up next?

1728
01:10:30,654 --> 01:10:32,614
Oh, that microphone there and the stand.

1729
01:10:32,694 --> 01:10:36,574
This is high-level design here. Up next.

1730
01:10:36,734 --> 01:10:37,434
Okay. So,

1731
01:10:38,334 --> 01:10:41,194
the obvious choice is Duke Ellington and John Coltrane.

1732
01:10:41,394 --> 01:10:41,484
That's what I have.

1733
01:10:41,484 --> 01:10:45,334
That was up the next week. But I'm actually going to go to a record called Piano

1734
01:10:45,374 --> 01:10:46,734
Reflections, which-

1735
01:10:46,934 --> 01:10:47,654
Yeah, great call

1736
01:10:47,854 --> 01:10:51,764
... which was, I believe, from like 1953 or '54.

1737
01:10:51,794 --> 01:10:52,414
'54, yeah.

1738
01:10:52,494 --> 01:10:52,854
Yeah, something.

1739
01:10:52,874 --> 01:10:53,794
Duke Ellington Trio.

1740
01:10:53,834 --> 01:10:53,844
Maybe even '55.

1741
01:10:53,854 --> 01:10:54,034
Yeah.

1742
01:10:54,734 --> 01:10:56,094
Incredible trio record.

1743
01:10:56,474 --> 01:10:56,814
Great.

1744
01:10:56,854 --> 01:11:00,534
If you like this, but you're like, there's some weird stuff around it, like I was

1745
01:11:00,574 --> 01:11:02,354
saying, I think you'll love that because everything is in place.

1746
01:11:02,394 --> 01:11:05,234
So look, a lot of people will be like, "Oh, okay, Boomer,

1747
01:11:05,414 --> 01:11:09,154
you got to have it all clean and antiseptic and with a little bow on it."

1748
01:11:09,714 --> 01:11:13,414
I don't know. Yeah. To me, that. But again, different strokes for different folks.

1749
01:11:13,694 --> 01:11:17,474
Different strokes for different folks in this world. Silver spoons.

1750
01:11:17,674 --> 01:11:17,803
Well-

1751
01:11:17,854 --> 01:11:18,373
Confusing

1752
01:11:18,534 --> 01:11:20,114
... Peter, this has been a blast, man.

1753
01:11:21,154 --> 01:11:22,164
It really has been fun. Honestly-

1754
01:11:22,174 --> 01:11:23,814
Have we ever disagreed this much in an episode?

1755
01:11:23,854 --> 01:11:26,894
No, we've never disagreed this much, and I've loved every second of it.

1756
01:11:27,014 --> 01:11:27,174
Yeah.

1757
01:11:27,294 --> 01:11:31,214
I wish we had more albums that we disagreed on because it's really fun, and I

1758
01:11:31,234 --> 01:11:35,034
think you did a really good job of voicing your case, and I hope I did a

1759
01:11:35,094 --> 01:11:39,074
good job of voicing my case because I really like

1760
01:11:39,154 --> 01:11:42,794
all the tension and the weirdness of it. But I get why you don't.

1761
01:11:42,974 --> 01:11:46,774
So, my only ask for you is that just give your honest opinion of this.

1762
01:11:46,794 --> 01:11:46,804
Yeah.

1763
01:11:46,834 --> 01:11:50,674
Don't be like, don't think this is a record that you should like because

1764
01:11:50,734 --> 01:11:53,474
somebody who you think is more important or less important.

1765
01:11:53,974 --> 01:11:54,534
Just like-

1766
01:11:54,714 --> 01:11:54,794
Also-

1767
01:11:54,894 --> 01:11:55,434
How do you like it?

1768
01:11:55,464 --> 01:11:57,594
... by the way, if you like it, don't think that this is a record that you

1769
01:11:57,634 --> 01:11:59,064
shouldn't like just because someone-

1770
01:11:59,114 --> 01:11:59,384
That's right

1771
01:11:59,384 --> 01:12:00,594
... that is more experienced tells you not to like it.

1772
01:12:00,654 --> 01:12:01,024
No, I'm not-

1773
01:12:01,024 --> 01:12:01,384
If you like it, like it

1774
01:12:01,454 --> 01:12:04,693
... telling anyone not to like it. I'm just saying be honest about it.

1775
01:12:04,924 --> 01:12:07,094
And this is coming from experience. I was not honest about this.

1776
01:12:07,134 --> 01:12:09,674
Like, I kept saying, "I got to like it." And I do like it.

1777
01:12:09,894 --> 01:12:11,614
I think I expressed the parts that I like.

1778
01:12:11,694 --> 01:12:11,954
Yeah.

1779
01:12:11,974 --> 01:12:14,674
But overall, I'm like, "Eh, it's all right."

1780
01:12:14,714 --> 01:12:15,854
Well, until next time.

1781
01:12:16,174 --> 01:12:16,654
You'll hear it.