Barb Patterson (00:01.384)
Welcome Angus, I am so glad to have you here. Thank you, thank you, thank you for saying yes to being a guest.

Angus Ross (00:10.947)
Well, thank you for having me. I think I feel it's a real honor and a privilege to participate in a conversation with you at any point, either side of a podcast interview.

Barb Patterson (00:21.972)
Yeah, I'll share in the intro as well, but just full disclosure at the start, we're good friends. You and your wife Rohini and I are good friends. And we've been on this journey of life and work and solopreneurship and expanded consciousness together for about 10 plus years now.

Angus Ross (00:30.882)
Yes.

Angus Ross (00:42.402)
Yeah.

Barb Patterson (00:49.56)
grateful anyway to have you here. And I've been really looking forward to having you as a guest because, you know, I've been lucky enough to be impacted by your journey and, you know, inspired and lifted up by you as a human and as an amazing soul, but also the insights that you've had along the way. And so I'm grateful to you for allowing us to.

you know, do it in this format so others can benefit as well.

Angus Ross (01:20.719)
Yeah. And I also want to say, I mean, I have so much love for you, Barb, and I feel like my life would be entirely different without you. really shaped the trajectory of my journey as a transformational coach. And I'm so blessed to know you and thank you. I really do mean that. I have so much love for you. Yeah.

Barb Patterson (01:37.688)
Thank you, Angel. Yeah, I love you too. I love you too. Well, I, you know, there's so many places we can go, but I think what it would be a good place just to begin is, you know, I know over the last few years in particular, you know, there have been some directions and insights that have really had significant impact in your personal life as well as the way you work with others. So I just love to

ask you in a more general way and let you go where you're inspired to go. What are some of those insights? What have you seen that's had such a powerful impact both internally and the way you show up in your work?

Angus Ross (02:23.339)
Yeah. So my goodness, how many hours do we have? As much as I can paraphrase, I guess the last, I don't know how many years it's been now, excuse me. don't know, 15 or so years, I feel like I kind of decided to take on the mantle of transformational coach. And, and I think that it was a real struggle for me initially, cause I had a lot of self-confidence issues. and.

I think that what perhaps was the first insight that I had was working with you and the Pranskys and that if indeed I was gonna explore this field as a new career, it was about, it's okay to be me, it's okay to be show up and be myself and share my own stories and my own insights. And I always felt that at the very beginning that what was so terrifying about

exploring this as a career was that was going to have to know so much that I was going to have to learn the whole new technology as it were. And I was going have to be a really slick speaker and I was going to be able to walk around a stage and drop roomy coats and quotes and goodness knows what else. And that just, just wasn't who I was. But I suddenly realized, and the more that I did this work at the get go was that, yeah, actually when I actually show up,

and kind of, I'm okay with being myself and I can show up in that authentic way. Then it seems to really resonate with people. And apart from anything else, I think what was so fascinating about that was also so scary was that this, this idea of showing up and being myself meant that I would, I would teach or I would coach in particular doing seminars in front of what I consider were large amounts of people where

I would just show up, have to show up and be myself and be spontaneous in the moment. That seemed to me just so beyond my capabilities. But the more that I did this work and the more that I observed other people in those sort of venues, I realized that actually when you show up and you talk from the heart, which is kind of how it was presented to me, and you're spontaneous in the moment, that really strikes a nerve with people.

Angus Ross (04:43.469)
So that to me was kind of like how things started. I just started to become more comfortable in my own skin and I really liked the feeling of my own skin. And I think that I'd spent most of my life thinking, I need to like really improve my skin or find someone else's skin to jump into. And so that to me was the sort of first point of liberation or insight, I guess. And then I think it was, sorry, go ahead.

Barb Patterson (05:05.557)
I love that. Well, just to pause there for a moment because I think it's so relatable that, you know, it looks like to do well in our craft, whatever that is, we need a lot of extra, you know. And yes, there's skill development, obviously, and knowledge gained, but I think what you're speaking to applies everywhere.

Angus Ross (05:21.078)
Yeah.

Barb Patterson (05:29.707)
You know, and in particular in the work of development and coaching and teaching in this way, you know, when we're asking people to be themselves and yet we feel like we need a lot of extra persona to be credible, it creates this sort of internal conflict. And like you, I just have seen even in professional traditional business settings,

I'm so grateful to know now that the more I can take those personas, all that extra off and just get comfortable in my skin or be myself, it creates this really powerful rapport. And in a way then, it's like you said, it's like people feel you, not the image you're trying to present. And that's so powerful.

Angus Ross (06:23.705)
So powerful. Can I tell a little story? Cause there's something that I witnessed that really kind of changed that landscape for me. And I think that I just became fascinated with observing public speakers and who kind of like struck a note with the crowd and who didn't. And one of my favorite experiences was years ago when Rohini and I would be part of a group of volunteers in a

Barb Patterson (06:26.92)
Yes, go for it, yes.

Angus Ross (06:53.827)
than the group. What it's referred to as is, I think it's just simply called the Prism Project. Sorry, I'm stumbling with my words trying to remember it so long ago now. But we were part of a team of, I think, about 100 volunteers who would go and participate in this sort of personal growth workshop in a men's prism. And we'd been doing it for some five years at this point. And I think that what I had been so curious about was that every time we would go,

there would be this one group of inmates that would get a hold of the mic. And it was kind of set up in a way where it was a personal growth workshop, but we would split the room up into trios. So there'd be a hundred volunteers and there'd be 200 inmates. And then we would go through these exercises. And at the end of each exercise is in that trio, a mic would be passed around the room. And so bear in mind, this is a prison and there's

very little opportunity for these inmates to get an opportunity to speak publicly and get a hold of the mic and share what's meaningful for them. So at the end of each trio, the mic would be passed around the room and people would get up and share. And I noticed over the course of five years that there were a sort of usual cast of characters who would get a hold of the mic and deliver this incredible piece of oratory.

And everyone would duly applaud and be impressed. It's like, wow, that's kind of a special mind to be able to deliver a speech like that. And I remember on this particular weekend, and it was early on in the weekend, going into the next trio after hearing this sort of usual cast of characters, get the mic and deliver this amazing oratory. And there's the due applause. And then I remember going into the next trio and sitting with these two young men and these two young men I was speaking to and I was saying,

Gosh, you know, those guys are incredible speakers. What's, what's, what's their story? And he said, well, one of them said, he said, these guys, these are the, these guys are the leading lights in the, the, in the prison community toast masters program, which for those of you that I, know, that don't know about toast masters, it's a sort of training program to, learn how to speak publicly. And they said to me that these guys spend weeks and hours.

Angus Ross (09:15.755)
in front of the mirror, perfecting their speeches. And to be honest, this is the only real opportunity they get to really kind of like really be able to share those skills in front of a large group of people. And not only a large group of people, a third of which are not even inmates, they're like, you know, members of the general public, as it were. So that was amazing to me, but armed with that information, we then went into the next trio, the next few trios, and the mic was distributed around the room.

And these guys got a hold of the mic and did their thing. But what was so uncanny about this weekend, every time one of those guys spoke after them, someone got up and shared in the most heartfelt way that was so powerful and so extraordinary in the way that it had an impact in the room that, you know, that they would finish speaking.

The applause was not only rapturous, but there wasn't a dry eye in the house. Tears were streaming down everyone's face because it was so moving. And then I realized it's like, wow, if we were able to get hold of transcripts for this weekend, you would read them and you'd think, gosh, here are these amazing pieces of oratory and these people who are obviously well-versed in public speaking. And then the people that would get the mic and share from the heart, you'd probably think it would make no sense at all.

But in the moment, it made so much sense because the feeling was so palpable and the impact on the room was just profound. And that to me was kind of like, that means now I can just show up and be myself and say whatever I want as long as I'm coming from that feeling, from having an open heart. And so I would say in terms of insights, that was a huge insight for me.

Barb Patterson (11:01.303)
Yeah.

Angus Ross (11:05.995)
was just to see and understand. like, yeah, it's about feeling, it's about presence. It's not about, you know, the clothes that we wear or the words that we say. It's like, is my heart open? And that's kind of like who we all are. And that to me is like, was a real springboard for me in terms of like, wow, you know what? I love this. I want to do this work.

Barb Patterson (11:06.071)
That's beautiful.

Barb Patterson (11:21.695)
I love that.

Barb Patterson (11:29.069)
Yeah. And so I'm curious, you know, there's the moment of that sort of insight and that palatable, like you can feel the difference and you have this realization of, that's how I want to show up. And you even have a clarity of, you know, opening your heart. But I know the way we that transformation and shifts happen, it's not always like this, then instantly you never struggled with

trying to think you needed more or self-confidence issues, you know? So how did you bridge that realization into like actually becoming more comfortable in your skin and allowing yourself more freedom to be who you are, Angus?

Angus Ross (12:16.559)
Well, I'd say it took an enormous amount of courage and probably a lot of meltdowns that Rohini can attest to. were going to go and speak publicly or whatever we were going to do, even doing the podcast is kind of like, oh my goodness. There was a part of me is kind of like, oh my goodness, I'm going to be found out now. And that feels really scary. And it was just, you know, I guess through, you know,

through exposure, eventually it started to become easier. You know, I started to realize, oh, I can show up and I can be myself. And yet, nevertheless, there was so much fear in terms of what my mind would conjure up beforehand about how this is going to go horribly wrong. And nevertheless, you know, despite the meltdown, I would nevertheless have to go ahead and do it. Poor Rohini having to put up with all that.

Barb Patterson (13:08.717)
Thank

Angus Ross (13:10.255)
And then it would generally go very well, but it was having to sort of get through that fear and do it anyway that through consistency allowed me to see is like, yeah, that's all that I need to do. And actually that's what makes impact. And it's kind of like, yeah, I guess you eventually get over it. I still have some nerves, but.

I used to have sleepless nights in the past. Now today, you know, I get a little bit of a drum roll. As I said to you earlier, I feel, I feel some nerves about doing this, but it's not something that feels, you know, potentially debilitating or scary. Yeah.

Barb Patterson (13:46.895)
Yeah, that's great. Yeah, and so I cut you off earlier when you were starting to move into potentially, think, your next insight, the next piece you wanted to talk about. Do you remember what that was?

Angus Ross (14:00.951)
Yes, yes. I know. I'm sorry. I kind of went off piece there a little bit, but...

Barb Patterson (14:04.234)
No, no, I did it. I took us there. It was my I'm glad. Yeah.

Angus Ross (14:08.633)
Yeah. And that just feels like there's so much. I, you know, I'm trying my best to sort of like, place it down into the sort of, guess the ESPN show reel of all my insight. It's kind of fun to do.

Barb Patterson (14:18.414)
Yeah, exactly. No, no, but I love the stories and I know the people listening love the stories that are real and, you know, personal for you. I think it's always great to hear that.

Angus Ross (14:29.486)
Yeah.

Yeah. So I would say that, obviously something that's really important to talk about is how my exposure to the three principles have shaped me and the work that I do, that meeting you and the Pranskis and being mentored by you and those guys.

And in a sense, and I kind like want to use another word, but the word that sort of comes to mind, which feels a little bit awkward is to say, it's kind like, feel like I learned the technology in a sense, which seems so ridiculous to say about something that in its essence is so non-dual. But it kind of gave me a framework with which to work in, which I think to be honest is kind of like, as much as I could,

consider myself not to be an intellectual person, I think that I nevertheless kind of took it on in a pretty intellectual way, which is probably doing myself an injustice because I think I'm pretty open-hearted and try as much as possible to be authentic in the moment. But I still have those insecurities about, yeah, I've got to show up and I've got to perform and I've got to wear a mask, et cetera. That's something that, you know, I had to kind of deprogram myself from. But nevertheless, I feel like

It was an incredible framework of understanding to see how the role of thought causes us to suffer in our human experience and what's behind thought. And the language that was so often used early on in the early days of me learning this understanding was just like, yeah, behind thought there's wisdom. There's an innate wisdom that, is something that is so hard to define or describe. And it's sort of caught up in

Angus Ross (16:11.491)
You know, the sort of typical spiritual vernacular, whatever term we might use, know, God, the intelligence behind life, the life force power of the universe, consciousness, et cetera. There are all those terms, but it was always something that was not sort of quite graspable and it was kind of hard to articulate. But nevertheless, it felt like a good thing to point to. And I think that for me, taking on board this understanding is like, yeah, I'm a pointer. And that's kind of what I felt like I learned.

was learning, I'm pointing in that direction. And that's probably the best thing that we all can do in terms of doing this work. But I think that was a lot of what I, in the way that I was presenting it was pretty intellectual. And I think really for me, things started to really change when I was introduced to plant medicine work. And

And I just wanted to sort of set up the plant medicine work in way that I want to talk about that and just say that, there is this sort of foundation that was provided to me by the three principles and a lot of my sort of non-dual readings in addendum with that, I guess. And I think that the plant medicine just suddenly allowed me to have a more experiential realization about what was being pointed to. So.

It's interesting to sort of think about, you know, the early days of being introduced to the three principles and having a great deal of opportunity to speak publicly. and I feel so blessed that I had those opportunities, but to sort of also realize, yeah, there was so much insecurity about how I was showing up, particularly for beforehand. was this sort of abject terror that would go through that I was going to be found out.

So obviously I was getting really caught up in thought and I was really, really caught up in story about how this was going to go wrong. and thankfully in the moment when I got up on stage or whatever, it's kind of like, then I would suddenly find myself and the times when that would be powerful is when there would be a flow to it that felt like this is just, this is just working through me. It's, it's not even, it seems like it's beyond my control. This is not something I've, you know,

Angus Ross (18:33.763)
figured out I'm going to say or talk about, this is just sort of flowing through me. So that to me was just, that's the wisdom that we're all pointing to. But in the plant medicine work, what I started to realize early on was that I would do it with groups or I would do it with Rohini. And Rohini and the groups would be having like this sort of amazing time. They would get fully blissed out and drop in. And the vernacular that was used is that

at the beginning with the facilitator is like, yeah, we, you know, we, we hope that this experience will allow you to meet yourself. And I kind of like was always confused by that. What do they mean by that? And obviously, you I would ask that question and the answer that I would get was somewhat satisfactory. makes more sense today, but meeting yourself was kind of like meeting what the three principles we're talking about. You're meeting that wisdom. You're meeting that innate essential part of yourself.

that really is something that we can't put words to. know, the great George Pransky would always say, leave that to the musicians and the poets. It's not something that you can articulate. But nevertheless, there is a feeling there. So I can say that now in retrospect that I understand that and I've only had very small moments of that. But even in having those very small moments of that, I want to experience more of that. But I think that the more poignant

exploration for me that I wanted to share today in terms of this being so insightful in terms of it being an exploration with plant medicine is that I would have a pretty torrid time when I would take the medicine and I would really struggle with my thinking. And it was so fascinating because for all that I knew and all that I knew about the principles and non-dual philosophy was that

I would really get caught up in thought. as a consequence of getting caught up in thought, I would then have this sort of physical reaction to it, which would soon feel like my skin was crawling and it would be pretty terrifying. And yet all these people around me are like,

Angus Ross (20:48.609)
obviously meeting themselves and feeling fully blissed out. But I did it, you know, I kind of kept going back for more because I kind of like, started to chase that feeling. I want that feeling. And I had small snippets of it. So I kind of knew what was on offer, but there were moments in my journeys early on where I would really get caught up in a story. And it's kind of almost, it's kind of embarrassing to say this out loud.

But one of the things that was kind of really shocking to me was that I don't consider myself to be a religious person at all, but I was nevertheless taken to church by my mom and I got confirmed and I would take communion. And that was, guess, a big part of my early programming as a youth and as a child. But I got it into my head that plant medicine, when I was on it, was maybe the...

the sort of the, this was the work of the occult. This is evil perhaps in its origins. And I started to think, my God, this is witchery and started to run that narrative. And it sounds a little silly to say that out loud, but the feeling that that evoked in me within this altered state of being on plot medicine was pretty much pretty close to abject terror.

So I got really scared of that. And then having had that experience, it was really scary to do it again. But nevertheless, you know, I went ahead and did it, you know, obviously months apart, but I would go ahead and do it again. And I had that sort of fear at the back of my mind that this is something kind of dangerous to play with because it could be the devil's work, you know, which seems so childish to say, but...

Nevertheless, this would be my experience. And so anyway, with that sort of narrative that I had running and the resistance that I had to the plant medicine meant that I really struggled and I would really suffer. And like I say, I would get to points where my skin was crawling. But there was this one moment, which I think again, another sort of defining moment where I did a journey with Rohini at home. And it started out with me being in a very blissed out state. And for those of you that

Angus Ross (23:07.639)
are not, you know, well versed in how plant medicine is used. You would start with a heart, what is called a heart opener. And then you would use the plant medicine, but plant medicine can, you know, well, anyway, you start with a heart open and go into the part medicine experience and the heart opener is really a way to set the table so that you can meet the plant medicine in a settled state of mind with your heart open. And I was in a very

open state, shall we say, shall we say, I was feeling very blessed out. We were in bed. I think it was a Sunday afternoon and, I don't know how many hours we'd been there. Probably been a matter of minutes, you know, who knows time seems to not be very important in those experiences, but, Rahini suddenly turns to me and says, can you, can you smell smoke? And I'm kind of like, gosh, yes, I can smell smoke.

and then more though I sniffed the stronger the smell of smoke became, and then I decided to jump out of the bed and go to the French doors, open them up and put my head out. And it's like, my goodness. It's like, that's really strong. That's quite accurate. And then I suddenly thought, gosh, our neighbor who I've been kind of having a bit of a running battle with over the years tends to like to have bonfires, which is completely illegal in our community. The housing association do not allow that.

and so she's been having a bonfire and bonfire gets into our events and the whole house stinks of smoke. So I'm like, so already it's like, there's a smell of awkward smoke. And then my mind is like, gosh, she's so, she's so selfish. I have to be careful not to say it too out loud because it is pretty, pretty close quarters. and, and then I found myself getting into this sort of really judgmental, judgmental state about her.

Barb Patterson (24:51.97)
Yeah.

Angus Ross (25:03.021)
And then I was starting to think, my goodness, we've been inhaling this smoke for the God knows how many hours. What's that doing to my lungs? my lungs, my throat feels a little bit raspy and it's affecting me and my health. And then before I knew it, I got back into bed and started really kind of go from one bad thought to another. And to the point where I thought, gosh, you know, I feel like maybe this is really affecting my lungs in a really bad way.

And then somehow I found myself then getting to real judgment about the plant medicine and the fact that Rahini was thinking this is like something that's interesting to explore. Cause this again was fairly early on like, no, I can't explore this is, this is, this is the devil's work. and so then I knew that she would be disappointed. And then that in itself, there was a whole narrative around that. And then I just suddenly had this moment. like, hang on a minute. It's like less than.

Five minutes ago, you were feeling fully blessed out. And now because of all this happened, and the stories that you've built around it, you're now at the point where you're having this really strong physiological response. I felt like my skin was crawling, literally. Like it was so uncomfortable. But in that moment, I just suddenly realized it was like you just did that entirely with your imagination.

That's all to do with thought. It's nothing to do with the present moment. In this present moment, you are safe. And five minutes ago, were as safe as houses. You felt so good. And so with that insight and that understanding in that moment, I'm just like, this is all made up. This is not real. I'm fine. I'm perfectly fine. And as soon as I had that realization, I kind of went back to bliss and went back to being in this very comfortable state.

and to me that was a turning point because every journey from there on in is like, started to observe my thinking and how it wanted to get a grip of me, how it wanted to make up a story and how interesting it is to understand that that story can affect our physiology. If I get all bent out of shape and anxious, that experience that I'm having in the realm of thought affects my physiology. So it's like,

Angus Ross (27:26.647)
Yeah, if I want to enjoy the journey experience, I want to leave that alone. And I got really good at leaving it alone or understanding how it works. And to me, it was almost as if all of the, understanding that I learned from the principles and, and, and, you know, non-dual philosophy is like, it all suddenly started to fall into perfect shape because it's kind of like, yeah, this is what it's being pointed to is that we can.

get caught up in a story. And then if that story sucks, which often it did and does, then it's going to affect my physiology. It's like, wow, how amazing to understand that that's how the machinery works. And that outside of that machinery and outside that story and outside the realm of thought, there is a whole different field of understanding, which for many years was referred to as wisdom of which I adopted that language.

but it's so much more than that. And, and, know, I'm still looking for the right words to use to describe that experience. And I've only, I'm sure just scratching the surface, but when I've been able to sort of get beyond thought, and I think Ron, I think I don't know if it's Rondos, I don't know where I heard this, but there's a sort of field that you can get into. This is one of the ways where I liked how it was described as being a field of nonconceptual awareness. And that's probably the best time that I.

I have heard that kind of describes that feeling, which in many ways, the feeling is love, it's peace, it's happiness, but it's kind of like, it's a sort of experience that's completely beyond thought where you're just witnessing it. You're not gripped or identified with it. You're just like, that's the theater in my mind. That's the operating system running this movie. That's not who I am. What I am.

or what I'm feeling is very much in alignment with this part of me that is so impossible to define or describe, but nevertheless is witnessing all of this. And that to me is just like, that is what feels like pure bliss to me. It's like not being run by my logical mind, making up story after story. And so...

Barb Patterson (29:35.79)
Yeah.

Angus Ross (29:49.803)
in terms of doing the work today, and I know I've been speaking a lot about my experience in this respect, but it's kind of like, I do feel very passionate about it because what I learned through those journey experiences now makes it so much easier for me to work with clients, particularly when we're working with couples and I see how they get gripped by the story. And the story is also

informed by their conditioning, their programming, their trauma, and it becomes a coping mechanism to avoid feeling what's happening in the moment. And in the moment, generally they're perfectly safe. But when they get caught up in story, things generally go south. And particularly when it's a couple who kind of are having challenges in their relationship, quite often they just want to point the finger at each other.

and have a story, a very elaborate story to support that finger pointing. And so a big part of our work is like, can you see how there's not much value in sticking with the story? And what's really helpful is to come back to what you're feeling in the moment. And when you distill it down, what they're feeling in the moment is generally when you get behind the anger, it's sadness, it's fear. It's an emotion that feels

Barb Patterson (30:47.3)
Yeah.

Angus Ross (31:11.087)
palpable and real and authentic. And when they can tap into that, that's generally thing things start to move. And then of course, there is an even deeper level to that. It's like, well, how do we get to that field of understanding that what we're saying is our essential nature, one of love, wellbeing, wisdom, and make decisions from there. So in a sense, kind of, you have to have an insight and understanding about thought and how it works and operates and how we

have this inclination or conditioning to make up a story. And it's so much a coping mechanism. But when you start to get better at like getting more focused on what's happening in my body in the present moment, what am I feeling? What, what am I feeling there? That to me, it's almost like, I don't want to call it a hack, but I will. it's a, it's, seems so awkward to say that, but it's kind of like, to me, it's like, that's an opportunity to become present.

And in a mindset that's more aligned with presence, you're probably going to find yourself drifting towards that field of understanding that we're going to call wisdom, let's love or peace or happiness, that's our nature. And that's where things start to heal. But again, and I know that I've said a lot, but it's kind of like, it's so interesting to sort of see how the plant medicine, which to me is an amplifier of the human experience.

can fully amplify that storytelling machinery and help us understand it's like, yeah, you know, that's where we get ourselves into trouble. That's where we suffer. That's where we experience anxiety. And that's how we just in life generally get ourselves into so much difficulty.

Barb Patterson (32:57.399)
Yeah, you know, all of that, the over identifying with thought, the being gripped by the mind, and then those moments when we're able to experience more inner freedom and more presence. think those are, you know, experiences that we can, we all have in common, right? Our stories are different. What grips us may be different, but that the

human experiences to go into those, you know, the compelling nature of thought, then wake up and remember like, I'm in my imagination. you know, I think it was, I've heard it from Amy Johnson, a good friend of ours and a colleague, right? But, you know, she started speaking around this in a way that you, similar to what you're saying, that we're either in imagination or we're here in a direct experience of the present moment.

And that was such a nice orientation. And I can hear that in what you're sharing as well. It's like neither is good or bad. Neither is right or wrong. But when we know it, when we can see, wait, I've just gotten lost in imagination. Let me come back to the here and now. What I've heard in what you're sharing is that's where more connection and richness and insight and wisdom lives. But also I think it's that

feeling of aliveness, you know, that so many of us crave. don't, I know for myself, when I realized how much I just, one of my, you know, conditioning responses is to go like almost even before I'm aware of it, into my mind to sort things out, you know, to problem solve anything that's going on. But when I started to get a feel for what you're saying, it's like, wait, could I, could I rely on the mind less?

And if I wasn't relying on the mind, what was there? And it's that dropping into the body, into the moment, into presence, into see. And you're right. think it's in that direction is you realize you can handle the moment. You can handle what's happening. But also it is where I think we've...

Barb Patterson (35:21.933)
The story that life and meeting life is a bad idea because we'll never come out, we'll be overwhelmed, we won't, like really that is what I hear and that is that's what you're calling thought. Like that's the story. That is not what's actually happening.

Angus Ross (35:40.535)
Yeah. And you know, and I like that term that you're using, aliveness, because to me, the way that I hear that is it's what it is to be true to oneself. So in the work that we do with couples, that's why I love doing the work with couples, because I think it's such a great opportunity for these things to sort of come to the surface and really for us to sort of witness how

There is such a strong compulsion to get into story because it feels so much safer to do that. And that's the conditioning. And the irony of that is it's the total opposite. So there's this sort of tremendous fear that we've entertained that to go into the feeling, which is the, what I would say, that's probably the more true and honest part of ourselves. That's our body or body doesn't have any kind of logic to its experience. It just wants to come back into balance.

So any feeling that's being experienced is just an indicator that the system is out of balance. Can we come back into balance? And I feel like that the intellect and the story making machine is kind of like, yeah, we need to avoid that because it's way too uncomfortable. It's kind of like lead to chaos and destruction. And that's the conditioning. that's obviously, I'm sure,

born out of trauma, some sort of experience in our past where we developed this alarm system that makes us want to avoid those feelings that we are experiencing in our body. So much so that it becomes a total blind spot. the intellect has got very good at creating these stories to avoid having to entertain that feeling. So much so that it's just like, it doesn't even know there's a feeling. It's like, there's something to avoid. Let's make up story. And so...

Barb Patterson (37:24.302)
Yeah.

Yes.

Angus Ross (37:31.853)
What I find so amazing and exciting now in terms of the couples work that we do is that you see couples come together and they're so gripped by their story as we, know, it's so easy to do that and go that route. But when we get to experience couples talking with each other and they're getting caught up in their story and we try to steer them back to what they're feeling in the present moment. When you can do that kind of alchemy.

And you can see the resistance, like they so don't want to go to that, you know, go to that feeling and, and working with couples and obviously they're adults and they become sophisticated in their storytelling machinery. in that sophistication, there's a judgment that is like this, this part of me that, is caught up in feeling is something that is juvenile and it's something that is kind of idiotic or they have some sort of judgment running. There's, there's embarrassment about doing that.

apart from the else there's embarrassment, there's shame, there's all kinds of things going on potentially. But what I love is when people finally just try that hat on for size and, and let, you know, we might sit there for an hour, like just trying to sort of help them understand, yeah, that's the story. Can you come back to what you're feeling? Um, and then finally they might just.

out of sheer frustration or like, let's, I want to get out of here. I'm going to have to, they're not going to let me go until I at least try this on for size. And then they go to the feeling and they express themselves from that place and it is alive. I mean, it really is alive. It's pure and it's honest because it's a feeling within the body that just wants to move. It's been held in place for God knows how many years.

through this intellect is like just running roughshod over it left, right and center with some crazy story. Well, when really people express themselves from that place, it is alive. And generally the reaction from the partner who they're really worried is going to have this massive judgment about them being juvenile or whatever it is, feels nothing but compassion. It's kind of like me in the prison project. When I heard those guys talking from the heart, I was one of those that I put people with tears streaming down my face because it's heartfelt.

Barb Patterson (39:48.206)
Yeah.

Angus Ross (39:48.259)
There's, there's an energy around that. That's beautiful. So that in itself is very healing. But then what I love to hear too, is when we kind of do the integration after that meeting, let's say that person will then turn around and say, gosh, you know, I had so much resistance to that. Cause it felt so embarrassing. Cause it felt so infantile that part of me that wanted to express itself. And yet I feel so much better now. It's like a great weight has been lifted off my shoulders.

Barb Patterson (39:53.025)
It's intimate.

Angus Ross (40:18.711)
And to me, it's kind of like, again, that, that feeling of aligning aliveness, which to me is aligned with what it is to be authentic and true is that people who that we come up against or we work with in relationship, should I say, not come up against that sounds so negative people who we work with in relationship are kind of dealing with those walls that they've built around that truth that really is

Barb Patterson (40:35.951)
Thank

Angus Ross (40:46.223)
are nervous, they don't want to come back on balance. And they feel that we need to protect ourselves with said story to keep ourselves away from that feeling that feels so scary. And yet that's where things change. So it's so beautiful.

Barb Patterson (41:02.647)
Yeah, mean, it's intimate really is what I hear you saying. Like we were willing to get intimate with ourselves and then the work with couples like, you know, to be willing and feel safe enough in our own bodies to feel what we feel to be present to ourselves fully and then to each other. can only imagine that learning the distinction between story and what's real, what's beneath that is like

you know, allows couples to step into, you know, new levels of expression and intimacy and connection. I mean, I can see that so much of, you know, the previous work that, you know, we might have done in those situations would have been trying to address a dynamic or trying to address

habits and not that that doesn't come up, but what I see and where you're pointing in the work that you're doing is it's really you're changing the internal environment and then the way they naturally then show up to each other and to life in a very different way. They don't have to worry so much about strategies and tactics, not that that may not be helpful at times, but

In general, it's like they're waking up to something really profound.

Angus Ross (42:28.385)
Yeah, I think without doubt. mean, I think there's a simplicity around it too, which I really love in a sense that, you know, and I don't want our couples to sort of walk away and then be in a situation where they are, they kind of given up pointing the finger and now just saying, you're just, that's a story. That's a story. But, but in a sense, if they can find a good way to use that language in more positive terms, it's like they can be more cognizant of the story.

Barb Patterson (42:47.28)
Yeah.

Angus Ross (42:57.601)
and be more present to what they're feeling. So in a sense, the story can be fueled by anger and be delivered by anger and upset. But if they can get into what they're feeling in the moment and take a moment to just breathe and like, what am I really feeling here? Then they'll get in touch with something that's more vulnerable. I mean, it is vulnerable to do that in itself, but I think that's kind of like, hopefully how we set things up for the couples that we work with.

that they feel safe enough to be vulnerable with each other in terms of expressing those feelings. So if something happens that is challenging, it's like take a breath, feel what's going on internally. And if you're really willing to be honest about that, it's probably gonna distill itself down to sadness and fear. you know, to me all roads lead to that. All roads lead to Rome in a sense. It's like that feeling of feeling unloved at some point, you know, we got it in our conditioning that we're unlovable.

And we have an alarm system around that that goes off because of whatever my partner is doing. That's the thing that needs to be healed. And actually that's an invitation for healing. it's like, I'd say that it's kind of wonderful that, you know, you have this partner that's going to reflect that back to you. It's going to give you this opportunity to heal, you know, what has been held for a long time.

Barb Patterson (44:00.763)
Yeah.

Barb Patterson (44:07.919)
That's

Barb Patterson (44:18.552)
Yeah, and I think that really speaks to that, you know, you are not bypassing that raw, real thing that wants to be met inside, that wants to be felt. You're actually what you're speaking to is how to meet it with presence and then meet each other with that same level of presence. And I think that's really, really beautiful. You know, Angus, I'm just curious as, you know,

Angus Ross (44:30.102)
Yeah.

Barb Patterson (44:46.836)
seeing how this work and your own insights have really shaped the work you're doing with couples, the work and your other work as well. Is there anything else as we kind of come towards the end of our time that you see that either the dropping out of the conceptual idea of who we are and having more felt experiences, like that's part of what I'm taking away from what you shared today.

That allowed you to, like your home base, your default really shifted and changed and continues to expand. But then also that curiosity led you to a real seeing of the compelling nature of story and thought. And of course we're human, so you get caught up. But I'm just curious, like, if there's anything else you want to share in this moment that...

you know, helps anchor you not only in your work with other people, but in your own life.

Angus Ross (45:50.201)
Wow, that's a meta question, my goodness.

I mean, I think that I feel very humble about what I'm seeing and what I'm learning. feel like I really mean, I'm just scratching the surface. It's kind of like, there's so much more to see. And I think that it helps me, certainly helps me in my relationship because I feel like now I understand to, you know, I'm much more cognizant of how I can get caught up in story. And I'm still, you know, I'm human. I'm going to get caught up in story. There's still that.

that habit that I want to break. But I'm becoming much more self-aware in terms of remembering. It's, you know, that's not what I am. That's just something that's made up. That's my intellect's best technique to avoid discomfort. So I'm much better at kind of going to the internal discomfort and being curious about what that is as opposed to going to story.

So I think it's kind of like, I just feel like it just keeps opening up more doors. And I think that's the best that I can hope for. It's not that I, you know, I don't, I mean, I don't know. I don't want to say that I have these ambitions to become awakened. don't know. That just feels like it's like such a lofty ambition to have in life. It seems like, wow, that must be, that must be something that is only for the very few.

But I, nevertheless, kind of like, I want to just keep on moving in that direction. I want that to be my North Star. I want that to be my compass point. And so I think that it is about, I don't know, it is about opening those doors of perception and there is always another door. And I think that's what I love most about it is kind of like, yeah, you think you know one thing and then it's like, gosh, there's a whole other vista opening up of understanding.

Barb Patterson (47:48.11)
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, there's always another door. Yeah.

Angus Ross (47:50.039)
It does feel like, you know, if I was to make an analogy of it being like a computer game, it kind of like, does feel like we're going through levels. And, know, and I keep falling down and going back to the beginning, but I kind of know my way back to the next level because I've done it so many times. Yes.

Barb Patterson (47:57.209)
Yeah, yeah, but you know what else I...

Yeah. Just a trick of the mind. Yeah. But I think what's really fascinating in your story and in your share today is that one of those or many of those doorways are through the human experience, not just through escaping the human experience. Like that's one of the things I'm taking with what you're saying today.

Angus Ross (48:24.783)
Yes, yes, yeah, yeah. It's kind of, you know, that is why it kind of requires so much courage because there is nevertheless for however sophisticated people might be in their story and however quicker process that they might have in the way that they might choose to deliver said story, there is a part of them that is, most cases, much younger.

Barb Patterson (48:45.805)
Yeah.

Angus Ross (48:53.817)
that really hasn't got the words to describe what's going on. The story is just a bypass, like you say, it's a way to circumnavigate that feeling, but the feeling has got of, you know, it's a feeling there's not really much to do with it in terms of how one might articulate it. And we get ourselves into very deep water as soon as we try to articulate it. There was a client that I was working with the other day and they were describing something that had happened in the

Barb Patterson (49:15.683)
Yeah.

Angus Ross (49:23.437)
in their youth that was kind of informing their insecurities, I guess, as an adult. And there was a lot of sophisticated verbiage around that story, but every now and again, they just kept putting their hand on their heart and making this sound, ooh, ooh, like that. was like, that was so fascinating to me. And this was a guy too. So was like, he was, know, someone I think that is pretty well developed in terms of where they are in their understanding.

But that to me was such a tale. It's like, yeah, that's what wants to speak. It's that part of you that's going, Ooh, ouch. And it's like, that's so simple, isn't it? It's like that part of you is, is what's wanting to move through you. Let that have a voice. And to me, it's kind of like, that's the body and it's in its infinite wisdom wanting to sort of bring us back into balance. It's like, yeah, talk about that. But, but then we have this adult part of ourselves that's got this sophisticated story.

Barb Patterson (50:02.522)
Yeah.

Barb Patterson (50:11.365)
Yeah.

Barb Patterson (50:16.098)
Yeah.

Angus Ross (50:16.961)
I want to hear the ouch. I want to hear, you know, I want to see that feeling move through you. And I think that when you kind of can help people kind of get more attuned to those feelings that they've resisted for so many years in more sophisticated ways, as we get older, that that's really to me where things start to really change. And it's kind like, want to say also that these sort of ways that we resist what is.

Barb Patterson (50:22.201)
Yeah, nice.

Angus Ross (50:47.053)
It's more walls that we put up around experiencing our essential nature, that field of understanding that we're all wanting to hang out in. And it's like it's breaking down those walls, but it requires courage to be able to confront the part of us that we have this tremendous judgment about it being infantile or embarrassing or whatever. And yet it's a really strong and powerful feeling that has just been resisted for decades.

Barb Patterson (50:55.983)
Yeah.

Barb Patterson (51:15.14)
Yeah, yeah, that's great.

Angus Ross (51:16.461)
And that's available in the present moment. I'm not saying it's like it's necessarily stored in our nervous system. I don't necessarily want to say that. I'm just like, it's an alarm system that's coming alive in the moment.

Barb Patterson (51:25.9)
Yeah, yeah, it's our it's a great kind of point at which we could use that moment to just ask what's beneath this and drop in and become present. Well, Angus, I have loved this conversation and I know I can feel into we could literally keep going for another hour.

Angus Ross (51:36.973)
Yeah. Yeah.

Angus Ross (51:48.075)
I could keep going.

Barb Patterson (51:48.996)
So, no, I get it. we were, we're going to have to do a part two and who knows, maybe you and Rohini can come on together for the part two. And I know people are curious and fascinated by the work and what you're seeing around couples and their desire to live more connected and healed and alive. And so.

Angus Ross (51:56.567)
Yeah, that would be lovely.

Angus Ross (52:12.077)
Yes.

Barb Patterson (52:12.976)
Yeah, I look forward to the next time. Is there anything you'd like to say in closing before we sign off?

Angus Ross (52:20.111)
Uh, no, cause then I probably would talk for another 30 minutes.

Barb Patterson (52:22.128)
Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you.

Angus Ross (52:29.945)
Thank you so much. Thank you for the opportunity and I love and adore you and I always will. Thank you, Bob. Yeah.

Barb Patterson (52:35.889)
Right back at you.