WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.050 --> 00:00:04.040 Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free Ride Free, where we talk to people who 00:00:04.040 --> 00:00:09.680 have lived self-actualized lives on their own terms, and find out how they 00:00:09.680 --> 00:00:13.888 got there, what they do, how we can get there, what we can learn from them. 00:00:14.032 --> 00:00:18.839 How to live our best lives, find our own definition of success, 00:00:19.169 --> 00:00:21.689 and most importantly, find joy. 00:00:22.579 --> 00:00:24.259 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson. 00:00:24.373 --> 00:00:27.463 New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy. 00:00:27.468 --> 00:00:31.456 Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com. 00:00:31.456 --> 00:00:37.074 You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com. 00:00:37.124 --> 00:00:39.974 Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free. 00:00:40.454 --> 00:00:44.144 I've got someone really amazing and wonderful, as all my livery 00:00:44.144 --> 00:00:46.574 ride free people are today. 00:00:46.574 --> 00:00:48.014 It's Nick Ross. 00:00:48.114 --> 00:00:50.724 , Nick Ross is not a household name. 00:00:50.724 --> 00:00:56.334 You do not need to be a household name in order to live a self-actualized life. 00:00:56.554 --> 00:00:57.974 , you just have to go live one. 00:00:58.634 --> 00:01:02.804 And of the many people I know who've really achieved this, 00:01:03.194 --> 00:01:04.274 Nick's one of my heroes. 00:01:04.764 --> 00:01:11.244 I've known Nick, since he and I were of university age, so this was a. 00:01:11.429 --> 00:01:17.189 40 or 50,000 years ago, I think in the younger driest ice age, in between the 00:01:17.189 --> 00:01:19.289 masteron and the Mammoth, evolution. 00:01:20.099 --> 00:01:25.789 And in that time, Nick was, always famous among our 00:01:25.789 --> 00:01:26.619 peer group for two things. 00:01:27.039 --> 00:01:33.939 , one was his passion for art and art history, which he had then he has now 00:01:33.939 --> 00:01:40.359 and has lived through and has managed to make a living out of, in a way that 00:01:40.389 --> 00:01:42.639 people would always say to him, well, you can't make a living out of that. 00:01:42.759 --> 00:01:44.979 Oh, it's all very well studying that, but you can't make a living out of that. 00:01:44.979 --> 00:01:47.379 You know, you never make a living out of that and you certainly can't bring 00:01:47.379 --> 00:01:48.969 up your kids and educate them on that. 00:01:48.999 --> 00:01:52.939 No Bloody Charlie well has, and he hasn't done it in a 00:01:52.939 --> 00:01:54.749 boring, academic sort of way. 00:01:54.749 --> 00:01:58.719 Not that there's anything wrong with being a professor of, art history. 00:01:58.719 --> 00:02:00.329 In fact, we love the fact that people are. 00:02:01.674 --> 00:02:05.154 But no, he's done it completely honest in own terms, in a really interesting way. 00:02:05.754 --> 00:02:10.884 Those of you who are familiar with the romantic period of, British and 00:02:10.884 --> 00:02:14.664 indeed European history will probably know something called the Grand Tour. 00:02:15.114 --> 00:02:18.469 And, those of you who don't know what the Grand Tour is, well now I'm gonna 00:02:18.469 --> 00:02:24.259 tell you, there was a time, and it really started, in the Renaissance when the 00:02:24.259 --> 00:02:32.689 sons of the nobility of Europe were encouraged to go and educate themselves, 00:02:32.869 --> 00:02:39.379 by traveling around the ancient sites of Italy, Roman Renaissance and so on. 00:02:40.099 --> 00:02:44.929 And later on to some degree Greece as well, and learned the humanities and 00:02:44.929 --> 00:02:51.319 basically learn to appreciate culture and learn a certain sort of humility and a 00:02:51.319 --> 00:02:54.869 certain sort of, emotional regulation. 00:02:56.534 --> 00:03:02.324 In the face of the grand passions of the arts and, the idea of standing 00:03:02.324 --> 00:03:03.794 on the shoulders of giants and so on. 00:03:04.544 --> 00:03:08.534 And some people saw this as a self-indulgent exercise of, you know, 00:03:08.774 --> 00:03:11.984 rich young men sort of drinking and whoing and fighting their way around, 00:03:12.084 --> 00:03:14.174 the flesh pits of, of the Mediterranean. 00:03:14.514 --> 00:03:17.664 And although it's not that, that never happened cuz you were 00:03:17.664 --> 00:03:18.774 dealing with young men here. 00:03:18.874 --> 00:03:23.914 much of the literature and art that we take for granted that came out of the 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:29.224 particularly early 19th century period, like Byron, like Shelly, like Keets, 00:03:30.104 --> 00:03:32.054 or it came out of these experiences. 00:03:32.154 --> 00:03:37.584 and that's just, that's just the, the handful that spring to my mind these days. 00:03:38.484 --> 00:03:45.924 Nick has taken that idea and made it much more democratic and also not strictly 00:03:45.924 --> 00:03:49.944 male and not strictly for the rich and. 00:03:50.769 --> 00:03:57.699 Has opened this idea of going to these places and, and imbibing this culture 00:03:57.699 --> 00:04:02.619 as a way to mature the young minds who will become the leaders of tomorrow. 00:04:03.759 --> 00:04:08.380 And has made an extraordinarily good go of it and has had an enormous amount 00:04:08.559 --> 00:04:12.849 of fun along the way and has indeed, I would say, trained some of the leaders 00:04:12.849 --> 00:04:17.409 of today, because we're going back a whole generation now when this began. 00:04:17.409 --> 00:04:23.649 So, Nick Ross is really a, an example of if you have a passion and you wanna follow 00:04:23.649 --> 00:04:26.379 it, don't let anybody talk you out of it. 00:04:26.379 --> 00:04:30.759 Don't let anybody say you can't make doing that, because what they mean is 00:04:30.849 --> 00:04:32.829 they can't make a living doing that. 00:04:32.829 --> 00:04:35.559 And if you make a living doing that well, it makes them feel 00:04:35.559 --> 00:04:36.639 a bit bad about themselves. 00:04:36.999 --> 00:04:39.969 So you want to sort of do what Nick did and sort of jolly 00:04:39.969 --> 00:04:40.779 well go ahead and do it now. 00:04:40.779 --> 00:04:43.959 There were two things I said that stood out about Nick. 00:04:43.959 --> 00:04:45.639 That was one, his passion for art. 00:04:46.164 --> 00:04:47.424 For showing people this art. 00:04:48.024 --> 00:04:53.244 The other thing was his bio capes that he would wear and still 00:04:53.244 --> 00:04:58.674 does, and his elegantly striding. 00:04:58.674 --> 00:05:05.084 Yet at the same time, heroically limping gait, which came as a result of a broken 00:05:05.454 --> 00:05:10.614 neck while doing something he wrote while playing rugby as a very young 00:05:10.614 --> 00:05:12.054 man while actually still at school. 00:05:12.054 --> 00:05:16.644 And again, having been told that perhaps his prospects weren't so good 00:05:16.644 --> 00:05:22.494 and that certainly spending the next 50 years, leading, groups of, high 00:05:22.499 --> 00:05:28.404 spirited you young leaders of the next generation around kilometers 00:05:28.404 --> 00:05:30.924 and kilometers and kilometers and kilometers and kilometers and kilometers 00:05:30.924 --> 00:05:34.914 and kilometers of ancient cities and sight wouldn't really be possible. 00:05:34.919 --> 00:05:36.024 Well, he beat those odds. 00:05:36.874 --> 00:05:42.274 , so I want to shut up now and let you meet Nick. 00:05:42.649 --> 00:05:47.179 So without further ado, Nick, hello and thanks for coming on Live Free Ride for, 00:05:47.179 --> 00:05:47.889 Nick Ross: hi there, Ru. 00:05:48.109 --> 00:05:49.099 Thank you very much. 00:05:49.519 --> 00:05:50.179 That's, yes. 00:05:50.179 --> 00:05:51.979 I didn't know you knew that much about me. 00:05:52.809 --> 00:05:54.129 , Rupert Isaacson: well, you know, it's been a few years. 00:05:54.129 --> 00:05:54.189 Yeah. 00:05:54.909 --> 00:05:56.199 , and obviously I'm a huge fan. 00:05:56.199 --> 00:05:56.859 Always have been. 00:05:57.549 --> 00:06:00.429 tell us who you are, where'd you come from, and what kicked 00:06:00.429 --> 00:06:02.169 your life off along this path? 00:06:03.249 --> 00:06:07.679 Nick Ross: Oh, , so, father, father was a, , naval officer mother. 00:06:08.129 --> 00:06:11.849 Joan had polio when she was ju just after they were engaged. 00:06:11.849 --> 00:06:17.059 So, in a way, , my difficulties physically were, were I, I 00:06:17.059 --> 00:06:18.739 ended up mirroring my mother. 00:06:19.699 --> 00:06:21.619 Interesting, many respect that I didn't know. 00:06:21.624 --> 00:06:27.979 And, and, so she had Beba Polio in 1947 and didn't have the use of her left arm. 00:06:28.349 --> 00:06:34.374 and, and actually she was probably about 20% of any other physically able person. 00:06:34.944 --> 00:06:39.494 So the idea of growing up with disability was, was, was, completely 00:06:39.514 --> 00:06:43.794 normal for us as, so that's, that's sort of kind of where I came from. 00:06:43.854 --> 00:06:47.064 , and, why, why did I end up doing what I'm doing now? 00:06:47.304 --> 00:06:48.414 Well, there's two reasons. 00:06:48.474 --> 00:06:53.004 , as you point out, the, the first one was that I ended up breaking my spine, 00:06:53.009 --> 00:06:59.094 playing rugby, and, and I wound up in, in a hospital bed at Stoke Mandeville. 00:07:00.324 --> 00:07:05.115 And, , and then I, I, , I remember being there and, , and realizing that. 00:07:05.774 --> 00:07:10.064 What I had hoped would be a career in the Navy was never gonna happen. 00:07:10.604 --> 00:07:16.024 And that until that point in my life when I was 16, I'd, , I'd been Mr. 00:07:16.024 --> 00:07:18.244 Sporty if you, if you could define me. 00:07:18.244 --> 00:07:23.379 It was that I was fast at running and I loved, , rugby and stuff like that. 00:07:23.384 --> 00:07:26.579 And, and, , and I'd shown no signs of having a brain. 00:07:26.699 --> 00:07:30.299 And, , and I remember lying there in bed thinking, I've gotta change the Braun 00:07:30.304 --> 00:07:35.849 into brain now if I'm gonna be left with only my mind and no physical presence 00:07:36.119 --> 00:07:41.100 or, you know, no, no activity, then I would, I would have to employ my mind. 00:07:42.329 --> 00:07:42.569 At 00:07:42.569 --> 00:07:44.309 Rupert Isaacson: what age, how, what, what age were you 00:07:44.309 --> 00:07:46.229 when you had this realization? 00:07:46.689 --> 00:07:47.499 , Nick Ross: I was 16. 00:07:47.949 --> 00:07:48.219 Okay. 00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:53.999 And, And, , so I started reading, , which I, I had, really tried to 00:07:53.999 --> 00:07:55.350 avoid up until, until that point. 00:07:55.359 --> 00:07:56.639 Rupert Isaacson: Did they, did they actually have to teach 00:07:56.639 --> 00:07:57.599 you to read in the hospital? 00:07:58.229 --> 00:07:58.739 Nick Ross: Pretty well? 00:07:59.309 --> 00:07:59.519 Very well. 00:08:00.389 --> 00:08:00.749 Anyway. 00:08:00.754 --> 00:08:04.824 The, the, but the, the other thing was that my, my parents, they 00:08:05.274 --> 00:08:08.974 had, when they first married, they didn't have very much money. 00:08:08.974 --> 00:08:10.264 It was that sort of post-war period. 00:08:11.344 --> 00:08:14.844 And, they, they worked really hard and they didn't go on holiday. 00:08:14.844 --> 00:08:18.894 They never left the farm that they took up because my father left the Navy in 00:08:18.894 --> 00:08:22.734 order to look after my mother, and he needed a job where he could work at home. 00:08:23.324 --> 00:08:28.314 So he thought, all I know about is the sea and managing men and fighting. 00:08:28.874 --> 00:08:32.359 , and, so he thought, well, I, I do also know a lot about the weather, 00:08:32.849 --> 00:08:34.074 and so I'll take up farming. 00:08:34.074 --> 00:08:35.544 And so he did farming. 00:08:37.224 --> 00:08:38.484 And, what sort of farmer was he? 00:08:39.969 --> 00:08:41.319 Well started off mixed. 00:08:41.649 --> 00:08:44.109 Mixed an arable, but then ended up just doing dairy. 00:08:44.619 --> 00:08:48.519 But, but he, they, they didn't go away for 18 years, because they 00:08:48.524 --> 00:08:51.489 were building the farm, building family, all of those sorts of things. 00:08:51.999 --> 00:08:57.999 And when I was seven they went, they took us all to Florence and my parents 00:08:57.999 --> 00:09:02.469 did an awful lot of work before we went so that they always knew where, wherever 00:09:02.469 --> 00:09:05.949 we were, whatever building we were in, they kind of knew some story about it. 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:09.759 And, and that's sort of where it all came from. 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:13.479 So, jumped 10 years, or jumped nine years to, to the day 00:09:13.479 --> 00:09:15.069 that I ended up in hospital. 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:18.399 If you'd asked me then what else are you interested in? 00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:19.029 It was art. 00:09:19.479 --> 00:09:24.819 And it was entirely because my parents had made sure that whenever we went 00:09:24.824 --> 00:09:28.129 somewhere that they weren't dragging us around, that they had something 00:09:28.129 --> 00:09:30.919 to say, you know, they were informed. 00:09:32.194 --> 00:09:35.474 Rupert Isaacson: Well, that's interesting that, given that your dad was ex-military 00:09:35.534 --> 00:09:40.844 and then became a farmer and then you were growing up as a, a farm boy when 00:09:40.844 --> 00:09:45.524 you weren't at school and when you were at school being a jock, art would seem 00:09:45.524 --> 00:09:47.714 a little bit of a guilty secret to have. 00:09:47.714 --> 00:09:51.014 Was that something that you kept to yourself or was that something 00:09:51.014 --> 00:09:55.424 you willingly shared with the other jocks and would pop them on the 00:09:55.424 --> 00:09:56.864 nose if they teased you about it? 00:09:56.894 --> 00:10:00.524 Or how did that, because those are two, those are normally two 00:10:00.524 --> 00:10:02.264 exclusive cultures within the school. 00:10:02.504 --> 00:10:03.704 There'd be the jocks and the Fs. 00:10:03.704 --> 00:10:04.034 Right. 00:10:04.424 --> 00:10:06.804 And so you were, you were sort of an equal hybrid there. 00:10:06.944 --> 00:10:07.124 Yeah. 00:10:07.584 --> 00:10:08.924 How, how did that happen? 00:10:09.614 --> 00:10:12.734 Nick Ross: oh, the, no, I think, I think, people generally 00:10:12.734 --> 00:10:14.204 knew I was interested enough. 00:10:14.384 --> 00:10:19.349 I was always around the art school, and put on, I remember we did, 00:10:19.379 --> 00:10:21.279 we did something on, on futurism. 00:10:22.349 --> 00:10:26.399 When I was about 13 and, and we just transformed the, we, we built 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:28.049 a structure inside the art school. 00:10:28.329 --> 00:10:30.219 and it was a sort of passage through war. 00:10:30.949 --> 00:10:33.709 And yeah, no, so I think people knew I was interested in art. 00:10:33.769 --> 00:10:33.949 Yeah. 00:10:33.954 --> 00:10:37.219 So that wasn't a conflict, that wasn't a problem, if you see what I mean. 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:37.489 Mm-hmm. 00:10:37.939 --> 00:10:38.929 But I take your point. 00:10:38.929 --> 00:10:43.009 It, it, it doesn't sit, it doesn't sit, , conveniently together. 00:10:43.399 --> 00:10:45.979 Rupert Isaacson: So you're lying in this hospital bed in Stoke Mandeville. 00:10:45.979 --> 00:10:49.429 But for those listeners who don't know Stoke Mandeville is if you have 00:10:49.429 --> 00:10:53.329 a really bad spinal injury in the uk, you're gonna end up in Stok, Mandeville. 00:10:53.909 --> 00:10:58.234 and when I was at school, there was a boy who, , broke his neck on 00:10:58.234 --> 00:11:01.024 the rugby field as well, who ended up there and he didn't make it. 00:11:01.084 --> 00:11:05.114 So, it just, if you ended up there, it meant that it was pretty serious. 00:11:05.234 --> 00:11:06.344 so you are lying there. 00:11:06.674 --> 00:11:09.794 you are thinking, oh God, you know, there go my dreams. 00:11:10.324 --> 00:11:11.344 I'm only 16. 00:11:11.644 --> 00:11:12.509 But I love art. 00:11:12.929 --> 00:11:19.739 And you haven't been back to Italy since you were seven, or have you at this point? 00:11:19.899 --> 00:11:20.119 No. 00:11:20.449 --> 00:11:20.799 Right. 00:11:20.899 --> 00:11:21.119 No. 00:11:21.219 --> 00:11:22.919 So, so this is a cherish memory. 00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:27.089 A a de and a decade old, which is a long time for somebody that young, 00:11:27.094 --> 00:11:28.979 obviously that's half your life. 00:11:29.609 --> 00:11:31.629 more, you begin to read. 00:11:32.259 --> 00:11:32.619 What are you 00:11:32.624 --> 00:11:33.039 Nick Ross: reading? 00:11:34.239 --> 00:11:38.494 Oh, everything about two thirds through, because I started reading 00:11:38.494 --> 00:11:40.234 the story, Gore's story of art. 00:11:40.724 --> 00:11:42.434 and then I started reading other books. 00:11:42.434 --> 00:11:47.414 But the thing was that, because at the time I had very little movement, I could 00:11:47.414 --> 00:11:50.114 only rarely ro move my, rotate my wrist. 00:11:50.114 --> 00:11:53.194 I couldn't, I, I had no, I had no biceps. 00:11:53.569 --> 00:11:55.129 And I didn't have anything else. 00:11:55.609 --> 00:11:58.219 Stomach, muscles, legs stalled the rest, none of them worked. 00:11:58.849 --> 00:12:01.129 And, but I could rotate my wrist. 00:12:01.649 --> 00:12:06.239 so rather like a royal wave, I could, I could do this, which meant that 00:12:06.299 --> 00:12:10.309 the, there was a, I had a leather strap around my hand, which, upon 00:12:10.314 --> 00:12:12.619 which or into which was stuck. 00:12:12.669 --> 00:12:18.209 an aluminum stick with a pat post office, you know, one of those, , finger po po 00:12:18.479 --> 00:12:22.939 rubber things that you put at the end of the finger to, to turn pages quickly. 00:12:22.969 --> 00:12:23.389 Okay. 00:12:23.809 --> 00:12:30.299 And, and, with this peculiar, this royal wave, I could, I could just flick 00:12:30.299 --> 00:12:36.329 the top of the, Left hand page, having read the, the spread, I could flick 00:12:36.329 --> 00:12:40.469 the top of the left hand page and then sh and then, and then push it under 00:12:40.469 --> 00:12:42.119 the keeper of the right hand keeper. 00:12:42.309 --> 00:12:42.599 Okay. 00:12:42.929 --> 00:12:43.139 Show me. 00:12:43.229 --> 00:12:43.799 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:12:43.819 --> 00:12:46.139 So I've got, I've got this lectin with a book over 00:12:46.169 --> 00:12:46.679 Rupert Isaacson: my head. 00:12:46.769 --> 00:12:49.169 So you are lying on your back looking up at the book. 00:12:49.439 --> 00:12:49.799 Yeah. 00:12:49.889 --> 00:12:52.499 And the book is suspended over your face at this point? 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:52.799 Nick Ross: Yes. 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:58.359 And, and, I had to bite my thumb, because if my arm spasmed, it would 00:12:58.364 --> 00:13:02.919 spasm away from my face, which would take my hand away from the book. 00:13:03.189 --> 00:13:06.249 And I didn't have the biceps to get their arm back again. 00:13:07.449 --> 00:13:10.389 So I had to bite my thumb in order to keep hold of it. 00:13:10.569 --> 00:13:15.609 And then, and then flick one page and then, and then if you see what I mean, 00:13:16.584 --> 00:13:18.354 Push it under the keeper the other side. 00:13:19.944 --> 00:13:24.854 As the book got heavier on the right hand side, the more I read, it became 00:13:24.854 --> 00:13:28.064 unstable from its left hand tethering. 00:13:28.634 --> 00:13:31.244 And so every so often it would just collapse. 00:13:31.544 --> 00:13:34.574 As I got towards the, the, it got further through the book, it would 00:13:34.574 --> 00:13:37.484 get heavier on the right hand side and it would keep on collapsing. 00:13:37.484 --> 00:13:42.764 So I am, I'm really shit after about 1900 in terms of art, because that 00:13:42.764 --> 00:13:44.144 was in the last third of the book. 00:13:44.724 --> 00:13:46.819 so, so kept you, kept you in the Renaissance? 00:13:47.119 --> 00:13:47.989 Kept me in the Renaissance. 00:13:47.989 --> 00:13:49.519 That's the only reason I know anything about it. 00:13:49.789 --> 00:13:53.959 Rupert Isaacson: and how long did this level of disability last? 00:13:54.059 --> 00:13:57.209 Nick Ross: I was, I was in there for about eight, well nine months. 00:13:57.429 --> 00:14:01.544 and I, I was just walking, by the time I left I could just 00:14:01.544 --> 00:14:02.834 about bear my own weight. 00:14:03.254 --> 00:14:05.554 And, and yeah, I could walk. 00:14:05.554 --> 00:14:09.154 I wasn't, it wasn't totally unaided, but, but then, but then I went 00:14:09.154 --> 00:14:12.844 straight back to school cuz I'd missed my lower sixth year, so my 00:14:12.849 --> 00:14:15.724 penultimate year at secondary school. 00:14:16.414 --> 00:14:20.069 And, so I went back straight back to school to my A levels in a year. 00:14:20.739 --> 00:14:21.969 which wasn't a good idea. 00:14:22.209 --> 00:14:25.089 Well, it was actually in one sense because it meant that I 00:14:25.089 --> 00:14:27.039 kept up with ev all of my mates. 00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:32.089 but it wasn't long enough to do three A levels and besides, I, 00:14:32.209 --> 00:14:35.449 I was running the school bar, which was really quite good fun. 00:14:35.659 --> 00:14:36.289 Of course you were. 00:14:36.349 --> 00:14:36.649 Yeah. 00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:37.789 And, and 00:14:38.079 --> 00:14:40.239 Rupert Isaacson: delegating the hefting of the crates and barrels. 00:14:40.569 --> 00:14:40.929 Nick Ross: Yes. 00:14:41.019 --> 00:14:44.439 All but, but the long and the short of it was today. 00:14:44.994 --> 00:14:49.944 I ended up, with really, really appalling A levels and, and said, so 00:14:49.944 --> 00:14:54.214 I did all sorts of other things for a while, but always wanted to get back 00:14:54.214 --> 00:14:57.274 towards art history in some way or form. 00:14:58.204 --> 00:15:01.054 Rupert Isaacson: So just quickly before, while you're still there 00:15:01.054 --> 00:15:03.424 in state mander, was there any point, were you really despaired? 00:15:04.484 --> 00:15:04.844 Nick Ross: yes. 00:15:05.294 --> 00:15:09.314 Yeah, there was one, one point when my spine wasn't. 00:15:09.394 --> 00:15:13.974 it's a peculiarity of spinal injuries that, in, in where, where normally 00:15:14.214 --> 00:15:19.234 children, when you break a bone, you fix really quickly when you break your 00:15:19.234 --> 00:15:26.254 neck, you don't, you do, you do break the bones, but it's, but it's the cartilage in 00:15:26.254 --> 00:15:31.714 between as you dislocate, you know, things that, that's the problem and that's where. 00:15:32.239 --> 00:15:35.859 You get severance of the spinal cord and, and that's what 00:15:35.859 --> 00:15:38.709 leads to the paralysis weirdly. 00:15:38.709 --> 00:15:41.289 For younger people, it doesn't fix so well. 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:43.839 And, and that's exactly what happened to me. 00:15:43.839 --> 00:15:49.710 So after, after about, 12 weeks, my spine actually hadn't fused in any way. 00:15:49.949 --> 00:15:50.669 It hadn't joined up. 00:15:51.209 --> 00:15:55.169 And, , so they had to do an operation on me, and I had very limited movement. 00:15:55.199 --> 00:15:58.079 That movement that I had was how I was reading and so on. 00:15:59.129 --> 00:16:02.749 Anyway, I heard the, the orthopedic, because all I could see was the ceiling. 00:16:03.799 --> 00:16:04.939 I couldn't feel anything. 00:16:05.479 --> 00:16:09.139 And so my ear, my hearing got really good and I could overhear. 00:16:09.574 --> 00:16:14.044 The orthopedic surgeon who thought he was out of earshot, say, you know, it's, it's, 00:16:14.044 --> 00:16:16.444 we've very rarely done this operation. 00:16:16.444 --> 00:16:17.524 It's very dangerous. 00:16:17.524 --> 00:16:22.684 He may lose everything that he's got so far and we may do more damage than good. 00:16:23.344 --> 00:16:28.324 And, and the next morning I projectile putte all over the, the male 00:16:28.324 --> 00:16:30.034 nurse who was giving me breakfast. 00:16:30.514 --> 00:16:33.934 And I projectile puked everything for the next two and a half weeks. 00:16:34.504 --> 00:16:36.364 And what it was, was that I was shit scared. 00:16:36.364 --> 00:16:41.334 I was deeply, deeply frightened, that I was gonna, I was gonna lose everything and 00:16:41.339 --> 00:16:44.774 I was going to be finally without options. 00:16:45.834 --> 00:16:46.344 And, 00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:49.909 Rupert Isaacson: and did you keep all this to yourself or did you share this 00:16:49.909 --> 00:16:50.479 Nick Ross: with anybody? 00:16:50.719 --> 00:16:53.899 Well, the thing was that I was sharing so much vomit with everybody 00:16:53.904 --> 00:16:58.439 that, that, everybody knew I, you know, they, everybody else around 00:16:58.439 --> 00:17:01.589 me knew that the only reason I was throwing up like this was cuz I was. 00:17:02.184 --> 00:17:03.914 I was, I was terrified. 00:17:04.364 --> 00:17:07.364 Rupert Isaacson: And you had to live in suspense then for two weeks or 00:17:07.364 --> 00:17:11.414 so after having heard this with, with the uncertainty of the outcome. 00:17:12.014 --> 00:17:12.764 Nick Ross: Yeah, exactly. 00:17:12.764 --> 00:17:15.364 And the problem was that, I was losing so much weight. 00:17:15.464 --> 00:17:20.364 I went in at about 13, 13 and a half stone and six foot, and 00:17:20.594 --> 00:17:22.244 I was down below six stone. 00:17:22.784 --> 00:17:28.724 And they were, and, and I was getting so thin that they thought that, I 00:17:28.724 --> 00:17:30.524 wouldn't be able to sustain an operation. 00:17:30.974 --> 00:17:33.714 Rupert Isaacson: And again, for those, for those, listeners who don't know 00:17:33.714 --> 00:17:37.104 the English, weight measurements, he is, you're ba he's basically 00:17:37.134 --> 00:17:42.684 gone in there, as a teenager of about 130, 140 pounds, at six foot, 00:17:42.689 --> 00:17:44.364 which is, you know, light athletic. 00:17:44.994 --> 00:17:49.014 And gone down to 50, 60 pounds at six foot, which is not healthy at all. 00:17:49.344 --> 00:17:52.164 Why did they decide to operate when you had lost so much weight? 00:17:52.364 --> 00:17:52.904 oh, well, the, 00:17:52.909 --> 00:17:56.204 Nick Ross: the, if they didn't operate, my spine would just be kind 00:17:56.204 --> 00:17:59.684 of floating in the, the vertebrae would've been floating in jelly. 00:18:00.014 --> 00:18:00.374 Okay. 00:18:00.674 --> 00:18:01.184 So to speak. 00:18:01.189 --> 00:18:02.024 And so it was 00:18:02.024 --> 00:18:03.104 Rupert Isaacson: do or die at that point? 00:18:03.394 --> 00:18:03.614 Yes. 00:18:04.244 --> 00:18:04.514 Nick Ross: Yeah. 00:18:05.324 --> 00:18:05.504 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:18:05.584 --> 00:18:06.154 okay. 00:18:06.154 --> 00:18:07.864 Then you wake up from the operation. 00:18:08.584 --> 00:18:08.764 Yes. 00:18:09.124 --> 00:18:14.619 do you think, oh shit, I've, I've actually lost everything because 00:18:14.619 --> 00:18:17.499 you're feeling, lying there, feeling weak or do you, does some part 00:18:17.499 --> 00:18:19.779 of, you know, okay, this is good. 00:18:20.199 --> 00:18:20.419 Oh, 00:18:20.969 --> 00:18:22.899 Nick Ross: well, no, actually, do you know, I haven't 00:18:22.899 --> 00:18:26.739 thought about this since ever. 00:18:26.739 --> 00:18:30.464 Actually, I do remember coming round and, you know, the, my physiotherapist. 00:18:31.114 --> 00:18:33.754 senior consultant were all shouting at me trying to get 00:18:33.754 --> 00:18:36.854 me to move and, and just see. 00:18:36.884 --> 00:18:39.224 Anyway, so I did, I did have the bicep. 00:18:39.254 --> 00:18:42.794 That was the, it was my right bicep that I wanted back, most of all. 00:18:43.064 --> 00:18:46.274 Cuz if I had that, I knew that I had a chance of getting my fingers back. 00:18:46.754 --> 00:18:51.074 And if I had one hand and one arm, I'd be the same as my mom. 00:18:52.064 --> 00:18:58.304 And if she, the, and that was my focus was that if I had, if I just had that, I knew 00:18:58.304 --> 00:19:00.824 that she'd had four children on one arm. 00:19:01.064 --> 00:19:04.004 So, so why couldn't I, you know, it would all be fine. 00:19:04.724 --> 00:19:05.114 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:19:06.124 --> 00:19:07.864 fast forward, how many kids have you had? 00:19:08.354 --> 00:19:08.774 three. 00:19:08.984 --> 00:19:09.284 All right. 00:19:09.284 --> 00:19:11.924 So you, you, well you've maybe got time to make up one more. 00:19:11.984 --> 00:19:12.254 We'll see. 00:19:12.764 --> 00:19:14.744 Unless there's any out there that you dunno of. 00:19:15.344 --> 00:19:16.004 okay. 00:19:16.004 --> 00:19:18.399 So, how quickly from then. 00:19:18.924 --> 00:19:20.154 From that operation? 00:19:20.904 --> 00:19:24.814 Are you up and walking and, are you, do you continue to read and 00:19:24.814 --> 00:19:26.224 do you read more voraciously at 00:19:26.224 --> 00:19:26.644 Nick Ross: that point? 00:19:27.184 --> 00:19:32.904 Yeah, no, so I'm, I'm now, it took me another six months to, to be walking 00:19:32.909 --> 00:19:34.464 six, seven months to be walking. 00:19:34.469 --> 00:19:37.104 And then I was reading, I was reading all the time. 00:19:37.714 --> 00:19:40.954 Rupert Isaacson: what, what was the, what's the book that 00:19:40.954 --> 00:19:42.634 really stands out from that time? 00:19:43.774 --> 00:19:45.454 Nick Ross: ooh, oh. 00:19:45.459 --> 00:19:50.434 Prob probably Bax Sandal who wrote Painting and Experience 00:19:50.434 --> 00:19:52.584 in 15th Century Florence 00:19:53.254 --> 00:19:54.064 Rupert Isaacson: Bax, Sendal. 00:19:54.214 --> 00:19:54.844 How do we spell 00:19:54.844 --> 00:19:55.054 Nick Ross: that? 00:19:55.624 --> 00:19:59.584 B A X A N D A 00:19:59.584 --> 00:20:00.244 Rupert Isaacson: double L. 00:20:01.494 --> 00:20:02.134 Bax Sinal. 00:20:02.134 --> 00:20:04.474 B A X A N D A L L. 00:20:04.894 --> 00:20:05.284 Yeah. 00:20:05.434 --> 00:20:07.024 And the, the title of the book. 00:20:07.579 --> 00:20:12.619 Nick Ross: Painting and experience in 15th century Florence 00:20:12.829 --> 00:20:16.879 Rupert Isaacson: painting and experience in 15th. 00:20:16.879 --> 00:20:19.009 And why does that book, why did that book stand out? 00:20:19.469 --> 00:20:20.874 , Nick Ross: cause it's, it's all about, , context. 00:20:22.714 --> 00:20:25.274 So he talks about, , weights and measures. 00:20:25.304 --> 00:20:28.064 He talks about, , you know, who, who may, who made paint. 00:20:28.464 --> 00:20:31.134 he's, he's talking about the current, he's talking about currency. 00:20:31.474 --> 00:20:34.054 , he's talking about all of those little aspects of life that 00:20:34.059 --> 00:20:37.144 people tend to forget, that have a bearing on the way things appear. 00:20:37.534 --> 00:20:37.864 Right. 00:20:37.944 --> 00:20:39.354 and, , what was it the other day? 00:20:39.354 --> 00:20:43.524 I, I was, something was going around the internet the other day 00:20:43.524 --> 00:20:45.864 about the gauge of railway lines. 00:20:46.654 --> 00:20:51.264 , the distance between railway tracks and it being related to. 00:20:53.434 --> 00:20:56.374 Which is a, which is a measurement that's now spread around the world. 00:20:57.154 --> 00:21:02.424 , but it relates to a tunnel in, in South Wales, something like that. 00:21:02.424 --> 00:21:06.654 I'm probably getting this wrong, but it's a, it's a, it's a, it's, it's, it's 00:21:06.659 --> 00:21:12.324 just an explanation of why something is ordinary and as common as the size 00:21:12.324 --> 00:21:17.394 of a train is related to something that happened in the 18th century. 00:21:17.394 --> 00:21:23.154 That was some, some engineer somewhere just said, oh, well there's a problem. 00:21:23.304 --> 00:21:24.744 This is a solution. 00:21:25.914 --> 00:21:28.224 And then it's get, it gets stuck in the system. 00:21:28.554 --> 00:21:31.644 It's rather like laws that stuck on the statute books. 00:21:31.914 --> 00:21:35.754 I'm kind of interested in the detri of history that may that explains 00:21:35.754 --> 00:21:37.044 why things are the way they are. 00:21:37.644 --> 00:21:38.034 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 00:21:38.039 --> 00:21:38.424 Got it. 00:21:38.424 --> 00:21:42.894 And you, and you picked that up while lying there on your back trying to go 00:21:42.894 --> 00:21:45.144 from one bicep to the rest of your body. 00:21:45.564 --> 00:21:46.014 Yes. 00:21:46.394 --> 00:21:46.684 Nick Ross: Yeah. 00:21:47.144 --> 00:21:49.494 Rupert Isaacson: So you, you. 00:21:50.544 --> 00:21:53.814 Fuel the fire of your passion while lying there. 00:21:54.834 --> 00:21:57.894 you go back to school, you run a bar, why not? 00:21:58.134 --> 00:21:58.424 Yeah. 00:21:58.514 --> 00:22:03.079 you, your A levels are okay, but I, when I met you, a, a levels 00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:06.249 again, by the way, for readers not familiar with the English, system. 00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:09.639 You must have a levels at the end of school if you want to get to university. 00:22:09.999 --> 00:22:12.579 Now, when I met you, of course you had gone to university, so 00:22:12.879 --> 00:22:14.559 you said you did stuff in between. 00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:16.209 So, so fill us in. 00:22:16.369 --> 00:22:19.209 You, you don't go straight to university to do art history at this point. 00:22:19.659 --> 00:22:22.119 You, you leave school and you do what? 00:22:22.759 --> 00:22:27.104 Nick Ross: so, so I, then, I then, okay, so at school, cause they broke my spine, 00:22:27.104 --> 00:22:30.014 I was, I, I I, I became very well known. 00:22:30.314 --> 00:22:31.814 Everybody knew who I was. 00:22:31.994 --> 00:22:37.184 So, so in a, which is a weird place to be because at 16, 17, you're 00:22:37.184 --> 00:22:39.254 trying to work out who you are, right? 00:22:39.284 --> 00:22:43.199 But if you are surrounded by people who already know who you are, it's a, 00:22:43.199 --> 00:22:45.469 it's a, it's a curious place to be in. 00:22:46.294 --> 00:22:46.744 Okay. 00:22:47.104 --> 00:22:51.244 And, and, so when I left school, I didn't wanna have anything to do with 00:22:51.244 --> 00:22:53.554 connections or anybody, any, any friends. 00:22:53.824 --> 00:22:54.094 Okay. 00:22:54.094 --> 00:22:58.004 I just wanted to find my own job, my own place to live, my own life. 00:22:58.004 --> 00:23:02.294 I wanted to work out, find out if I could exist, if I could work, if I was, 00:23:03.314 --> 00:23:08.564 if I was socially adept, as opposed to just being the bloke who broke his 00:23:08.564 --> 00:23:10.904 neck, who everybody knows who he is. 00:23:10.994 --> 00:23:12.314 I dunno if that makes any sense. 00:23:12.314 --> 00:23:12.584 It does. 00:23:12.754 --> 00:23:12.974 And 00:23:12.974 --> 00:23:14.924 Rupert Isaacson: or, and or the bloke who get you get free drinks off 00:23:14.929 --> 00:23:15.314 Nick Ross: in the bar. 00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:16.514 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 00:23:17.054 --> 00:23:20.294 So I ended up, I ended up in a shitty little bed, sit in Fulham. 00:23:20.634 --> 00:23:25.319 and, where I could, I could sit on the edge of my bed, wash, dress, 00:23:25.889 --> 00:23:27.389 and sleep all in the same place. 00:23:27.389 --> 00:23:29.939 Take 1 1, 1 stride and I'd be out the door. 00:23:29.939 --> 00:23:30.389 It was tiny. 00:23:30.449 --> 00:23:30.659 Okay. 00:23:30.989 --> 00:23:35.609 I got my j my myself, a job at Liberties, which is a, a big 00:23:35.614 --> 00:23:37.679 haberdasher's, big department store. 00:23:37.709 --> 00:23:39.029 One of the earliest department stores in London. 00:23:40.514 --> 00:23:44.804 And then, and then I ended up working as a bank clerk, doing anything, doing 00:23:44.804 --> 00:23:49.604 nights, you know, you know how it is, you know, 18, 19, you just, you need money, 00:23:49.784 --> 00:23:51.044 you gotta go and find it somewhere. 00:23:52.184 --> 00:23:56.144 And then I ended up working as a, as a volunteer in a museum in Manchester. 00:23:57.314 --> 00:24:01.619 and, because I wanted to get somewhere towards the arts, but I, I, I, didn't 00:24:01.619 --> 00:24:07.109 have the A levels, I needed some something to go to a university interview with. 00:24:07.829 --> 00:24:11.519 And so I ended up working in Manchester and I was also quite 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:12.749 interested in photography. 00:24:12.779 --> 00:24:17.249 So I started taking photographs of, Of, pubs on the way, on the 00:24:17.249 --> 00:24:19.019 way home from the art gallery. 00:24:19.619 --> 00:24:21.679 And, there's a theme running here. 00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:22.149 and, 00:24:22.199 --> 00:24:24.929 Rupert Isaacson: and it's good to know that you're dedicated to research. 00:24:24.929 --> 00:24:25.229 Yes. 00:24:25.349 --> 00:24:25.709 Yeah. 00:24:26.309 --> 00:24:29.194 Nick Ross: And if, if you know about, developing or printing, 00:24:29.624 --> 00:24:32.534 black, white photographs, so I take these rather dramatic images 00:24:32.534 --> 00:24:33.554 and then I print them myself. 00:24:34.064 --> 00:24:38.234 But, but if you know the old-fashioned process, I would under fixx them in the 00:24:38.234 --> 00:24:42.734 dark room so that they would then, when they would dry and put in a black bag. 00:24:42.974 --> 00:24:45.884 If you opened the bag and exposed it to light, then the print would 00:24:45.914 --> 00:24:47.115 disappear in about five minutes. 00:24:48.364 --> 00:24:48.654 Okay. 00:24:48.824 --> 00:24:53.264 And the reason I did this, It's simply that if you take a photograph and try 00:24:53.264 --> 00:24:56.204 to sell it to anybody, it's really difficult to get the money outta them. 00:24:56.904 --> 00:25:01.524 so I would, I would under fix the photograph, dry it, stick it in the 00:25:01.524 --> 00:25:03.474 black bag, and stick on the outside. 00:25:03.474 --> 00:25:05.424 A sort of mission impossible types. 00:25:05.474 --> 00:25:09.629 Sticker had them express, especially printed, which said, in this 00:25:09.629 --> 00:25:11.009 bag is a photograph of your pub. 00:25:11.489 --> 00:25:14.259 It will self destruct in five minutes. 00:25:14.879 --> 00:25:17.999 If you want it, ring this number and I'll bring it around to 00:25:18.004 --> 00:25:18.989 you and you give me the money. 00:25:19.019 --> 00:25:19.649 That sort of thing. 00:25:20.909 --> 00:25:22.499 Rupert Isaacson: Anyway, anyone give you that idea? 00:25:22.504 --> 00:25:23.429 It's a brilliant idea. 00:25:23.669 --> 00:25:24.539 Why didn't you spend No, no, no. 00:25:24.539 --> 00:25:25.299 Well, it was just doing that, 00:25:26.429 --> 00:25:29.639 Nick Ross: you know how well in those days if you went to a party, people 00:25:29.639 --> 00:25:31.129 would, take your photograph outside. 00:25:31.459 --> 00:25:31.669 Yeah. 00:25:31.699 --> 00:25:34.129 And, and, but they never, I never got it. 00:25:34.129 --> 00:25:37.099 I never understood how they made it any money because people would 00:25:37.099 --> 00:25:38.329 take the photograph and never pay. 00:25:39.619 --> 00:25:43.189 So anyway, so I just thought if I, if you novel the photograph from the outset, 00:25:43.194 --> 00:25:48.034 then, then, Then, so then they would open the photograph when, you know, I'd, I'd 00:25:48.084 --> 00:25:52.119 encouraged them to open the photograph when there were others around and and 00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:56.049 they loved the photographs and they'd give me a call and say, great, we'd like it. 00:25:56.049 --> 00:25:59.629 So I printed up, on really fine paper and then take it round mounted and everything. 00:26:00.069 --> 00:26:04.219 And they loved the photographs cause they were sort of gritty, urban, you 00:26:04.219 --> 00:26:08.909 know, reflections in puddles type images, you know, the ones, and, 00:26:09.209 --> 00:26:10.579 Rupert Isaacson: and, and the pub owners liked that. 00:26:10.584 --> 00:26:13.709 They didn't want you to take chocolate boxy things, that they thought No, 00:26:14.789 --> 00:26:17.789 Nick Ross: they loved the black and white grainy thing and the, but 00:26:17.819 --> 00:26:20.789 then the thing was that people would ask me to photograph their kids and 00:26:20.789 --> 00:26:22.349 that was the, that was the thing. 00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:26.999 So then I'd spend all weekends photographing people's families and 00:26:26.999 --> 00:26:28.189 printing them up on black and white. 00:26:28.659 --> 00:26:28.949 Okay. 00:26:28.954 --> 00:26:31.749 And and that's how I made a living cuz I was working. 00:26:31.749 --> 00:26:32.289 And you were doing all 00:26:32.289 --> 00:26:33.159 Rupert Isaacson: this in Manchester? 00:26:33.639 --> 00:26:33.999 Yeah. 00:26:34.869 --> 00:26:35.379 Okay. 00:26:35.559 --> 00:26:38.979 So you are taking photographs of disappearing pubs and children. 00:26:39.474 --> 00:26:39.714 Yes. 00:26:39.764 --> 00:26:43.214 I'd rather like that y your kids will self distract in five minutes. 00:26:44.084 --> 00:26:44.474 Yeah, no. 00:26:44.834 --> 00:26:45.074 Great. 00:26:45.464 --> 00:26:46.064 On that image there. 00:26:46.604 --> 00:26:47.024 Yes, I will. 00:26:47.114 --> 00:26:47.534 I will buy. 00:26:47.539 --> 00:26:50.364 How much, then, you're at this museum. 00:26:50.364 --> 00:26:51.594 What's going on in this museum? 00:26:52.134 --> 00:26:53.154 How's this get you to 00:26:53.154 --> 00:26:53.814 Nick Ross: university? 00:26:54.064 --> 00:26:59.024 a really amazing museum director who, who, what's in the museum? 00:26:59.894 --> 00:27:00.224 Sorry? 00:27:00.494 --> 00:27:01.424 What's in the museum? 00:27:02.174 --> 00:27:05.744 Oh, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a great, Manchester City Art Gallery 00:27:05.744 --> 00:27:08.684 is one of the great collections of prera flight paintings. 00:27:08.774 --> 00:27:09.134 Okay. 00:27:09.134 --> 00:27:10.484 It's Manchester City Art Gallery. 00:27:10.524 --> 00:27:10.814 Yeah. 00:27:11.194 --> 00:27:15.484 And, and the director there, a guy called Tim Clifford, said, listen, please don't 00:27:15.489 --> 00:27:19.534 come and work for an afternoon or a day a week like most volunteers, because it's 00:27:19.534 --> 00:27:21.424 difficult to find things for people to do. 00:27:21.884 --> 00:27:22.874 come and work full-time. 00:27:22.874 --> 00:27:26.864 If you're young, come and work full-time, and I promise I'll 00:27:26.864 --> 00:27:27.734 buy you lunch every Monday. 00:27:29.144 --> 00:27:34.104 And and I didn't, I didn't really realize, until much later in life how 00:27:34.104 --> 00:27:38.814 valuable that was cuz it meant I had an hour with this supremely ambitious 00:27:38.814 --> 00:27:43.524 man and he would ch chat about what I was doing and what he was doing. 00:27:44.034 --> 00:27:45.894 And I learned so much from him. 00:27:45.984 --> 00:27:47.154 He mentored you basically. 00:27:47.159 --> 00:27:47.344 Yeah. 00:27:47.994 --> 00:27:48.294 Yeah. 00:27:48.474 --> 00:27:54.144 And, and also I now realize that in that sort of position, lunch 00:27:54.234 --> 00:27:57.504 is a really valuable tool lunch. 00:27:57.504 --> 00:28:01.494 And he was giving me one of his five lunches a week, so he was 00:28:01.494 --> 00:28:03.864 giving up a lot to mentor me. 00:28:04.734 --> 00:28:07.854 Rupert Isaacson: And you have now reminded me that, so, for 00:28:07.854 --> 00:28:11.854 readers, art History abroad, which is which is Nick's, company, which 00:28:11.859 --> 00:28:12.964 we're gonna go into in a minute. 00:28:13.864 --> 00:28:18.674 One of the things that everybody who's ever done anything connected 00:28:18.674 --> 00:28:20.034 with this incredible company, which. 00:28:20.914 --> 00:28:22.954 Has affected people's lives around the world. 00:28:23.004 --> 00:28:28.554 there, there are people in power around the world who know art history abroad 00:28:28.554 --> 00:28:30.054 and the art history abroad lunches. 00:28:31.089 --> 00:28:35.869 and the power of those lunches is very interesting that, this lunch 00:28:35.874 --> 00:28:38.509 thing to some degree begins there. 00:28:38.849 --> 00:28:39.139 Yeah. 00:28:39.349 --> 00:28:42.654 even to the point that, our, our dear mutual friend, Tom Parsons, who I 00:28:42.654 --> 00:28:46.464 hope to get on here as well, did you invent this or did he invent this? 00:28:46.514 --> 00:28:49.809 that, the cure for depression is to take a song with the word 00:28:49.809 --> 00:28:52.089 love in the title and replace the 00:28:52.089 --> 00:28:53.199 Nick Ross: word love with the word lunch. 00:28:53.589 --> 00:28:54.969 That's more Tom than That's that. 00:28:55.289 --> 00:28:56.199 I think that's Tom. 00:28:56.649 --> 00:28:56.859 Yeah. 00:28:57.219 --> 00:28:57.519 Rupert Isaacson: It's good. 00:28:57.519 --> 00:28:58.089 I tried it. 00:28:58.089 --> 00:28:58.449 It works. 00:28:58.449 --> 00:28:59.109 It works completely. 00:28:59.319 --> 00:29:00.609 Nick Ross: every time I feel about, can you gimme an example? 00:29:01.029 --> 00:29:01.149 Can 00:29:01.149 --> 00:29:01.689 Rupert Isaacson: you, yeah. 00:29:01.689 --> 00:29:03.519 I wanna know what lunch is. 00:29:04.389 --> 00:29:06.129 I want you to show me. 00:29:06.519 --> 00:29:08.679 I feel so passion about this, you know, that, brilliant. 00:29:09.109 --> 00:29:09.399 Yeah. 00:29:10.019 --> 00:29:12.359 to you bear leave in lunch after all. 00:29:14.424 --> 00:29:14.714 Nick Ross: Okay. 00:29:15.284 --> 00:29:15.464 Lunch. 00:29:15.464 --> 00:29:15.944 We do. 00:29:16.154 --> 00:29:16.454 Yeah. 00:29:16.664 --> 00:29:16.964 Rupert Isaacson: Lunch. 00:29:16.964 --> 00:29:17.654 Lunch We do. 00:29:17.654 --> 00:29:18.494 All you need is lunch. 00:29:19.184 --> 00:29:19.334 Yep. 00:29:19.724 --> 00:29:22.634 So there's something in innately cheerful about lunch. 00:29:22.634 --> 00:29:24.674 Is something innately optimistic about lunch. 00:29:24.674 --> 00:29:24.794 Yes. 00:29:25.124 --> 00:29:25.274 Yeah. 00:29:25.274 --> 00:29:26.874 But, and as we know, innately cheerful. 00:29:26.874 --> 00:29:27.114 Yeah. 00:29:27.614 --> 00:29:29.144 It, it's, it's where deals are made. 00:29:29.194 --> 00:29:29.879 because you're 00:29:29.879 --> 00:29:32.879 Nick Ross: not winding, you know, my, my dad's victims on this. 00:29:33.209 --> 00:29:35.139 Tell me, the, his, okay. 00:29:35.139 --> 00:29:39.459 Robert Woodward, another big figure in our lives said, lunch is not 00:29:39.459 --> 00:29:42.129 lunch unless you have a glass of wine. 00:29:42.789 --> 00:29:46.179 Anything if no glass of wine, anything less is a snack. 00:29:46.189 --> 00:29:46.409 Yes. 00:29:47.499 --> 00:29:47.589 Okay. 00:29:47.589 --> 00:29:47.889 And 00:29:47.979 --> 00:29:51.009 Rupert Isaacson: Robert Woodward again for readers, I wish we could 00:29:51.009 --> 00:29:53.139 have Robert Woodward on this show. 00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:56.239 because in terms of one of the great self actualizes of 00:29:57.859 --> 00:30:00.314 Western history, he stands out. 00:30:00.344 --> 00:30:02.524 those of us who knew him, and we'll, we'll talk about him a bit, 00:30:02.524 --> 00:30:05.344 hopefully, maybe you'll talk about him, Nick, cuz he, he's obviously 00:30:05.344 --> 00:30:06.634 very relevant to this story. 00:30:07.234 --> 00:30:09.604 But meanwhile, you are being, you are being mentored by this, 00:30:10.094 --> 00:30:12.084 very amazing, museum director. 00:30:12.294 --> 00:30:16.044 Even though you've, you're living in a bed seat, you're, you're taking some pictures. 00:30:16.044 --> 00:30:18.774 You're working as a, as a, as a volunteer. 00:30:19.324 --> 00:30:20.344 his name again is 00:30:20.854 --> 00:30:21.604 Nick Ross: Tim Clifford. 00:30:21.604 --> 00:30:22.354 Timothy Clifford. 00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:22.504 Rupert Isaacson: Tim. 00:30:22.624 --> 00:30:23.134 Tim Clifford. 00:30:23.284 --> 00:30:24.604 Did he, then, what did he go on to 00:30:24.609 --> 00:30:24.874 Nick Ross: do? 00:30:25.574 --> 00:30:28.604 he then became director of National Galleries of Scotland. 00:30:29.294 --> 00:30:34.504 And, and he was, he was kind of the, the, the best national, you know, he 00:30:34.504 --> 00:30:37.744 should, he, it would've been lovely if he got the V N A or the National 00:30:37.744 --> 00:30:39.764 Gallery, or the Met in New York. 00:30:40.169 --> 00:30:43.539 All, all of which, he was touted for at different times. 00:30:44.059 --> 00:30:46.219 but it is quite a tr controversial figure. 00:30:46.699 --> 00:30:49.969 and, and he's sort of, I, I always rather feel that he's the best 00:30:49.969 --> 00:30:54.769 museum director of a major, major national museum that we never had. 00:30:55.219 --> 00:30:55.609 Okay. 00:30:55.669 --> 00:30:55.959 Okay. 00:30:56.149 --> 00:30:58.249 I think he, he was, he was very, very good. 00:30:58.999 --> 00:31:01.999 and I was, you know, I was very lucky to spend time with him. 00:31:02.839 --> 00:31:08.619 And, for example, he would give me, so he would give me, display cases. 00:31:08.619 --> 00:31:11.289 He'd say, what's in, what do you find interesting in the collection? 00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:13.929 Cause I knew the basement, I knew all of the stuff that wasn't on display. 00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:14.369 Okay. 00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:16.629 He said, find me something by next week. 00:31:17.284 --> 00:31:20.364 That you want, you want to talk to me about something that's never been seen. 00:31:21.054 --> 00:31:25.884 And Dan, there, there was some something, you've probably seen them there. 00:31:26.304 --> 00:31:30.534 The, the bone ships, Napoleonic ships or sort of Nelson, 00:31:30.934 --> 00:31:32.419 Rupert Isaacson: made by the prisoners of war. 00:31:32.839 --> 00:31:33.079 Yeah. 00:31:33.139 --> 00:31:37.699 In the, the French Napoleonic prisoners of war in the internment campus in the uk. 00:31:38.029 --> 00:31:39.379 I have seen some of those, yes. 00:31:39.559 --> 00:31:39.889 Yeah. 00:31:39.979 --> 00:31:40.249 So 00:31:40.249 --> 00:31:40.929 Nick Ross: he's in makes detail. 00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:44.739 Yeah, he's, he said, I came back and I said, oh, I'm interested in this. 00:31:44.739 --> 00:31:45.309 And he said, great. 00:31:45.369 --> 00:31:45.489 Okay. 00:31:45.489 --> 00:31:48.549 I'll give you two display cases in the main gallery. 00:31:48.959 --> 00:31:51.419 but from, you know, six weeks from now. 00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:54.629 So, you know, and, and it's up to you. 00:31:54.629 --> 00:31:58.619 It's up to you to curate it, tell people about it, write about it, whatever. 00:31:58.829 --> 00:32:00.809 And he just gave me that, that is a problem. 00:32:00.809 --> 00:32:03.659 Rupert Isaacson: And so he started basically grooming 00:32:03.659 --> 00:32:04.889 you to become a curator. 00:32:05.219 --> 00:32:06.869 Why did he take such a shine to you? 00:32:06.869 --> 00:32:11.279 What, what, what was going, did, did he do this kind of with every intern that came. 00:32:12.639 --> 00:32:16.554 Nick Ross: No, no, I think, I think, you know, he was, he was just, no, I dunno. 00:32:16.564 --> 00:32:22.424 He, he, he, I knew he, I, I, the reason I kind of got in the door was 00:32:23.174 --> 00:32:28.824 that, he had worked a very old cousin of, of minus man called Trench Cox, 00:32:28.824 --> 00:32:30.354 after whom we named the scholarship. 00:32:32.064 --> 00:32:35.364 And, and, and, Trenchard was the museum director when 00:32:35.364 --> 00:32:36.564 Tim Clifford was a young man. 00:32:37.134 --> 00:32:41.544 And so when I subsequently wrote to Tim Clifford and said, I'm a cousin of 00:32:41.544 --> 00:32:46.224 Trench Cox, you may remember, that was, I think that possibly opened the door. 00:32:46.284 --> 00:32:46.424 I dunno, 00:32:47.014 --> 00:32:50.304 Rupert Isaacson: perhaps Bob perhaps to the initial say, okay, I'll give 00:32:50.304 --> 00:32:52.734 it, I'll give the kid a, a shot. 00:32:53.184 --> 00:32:54.594 But he didn't have to go the extra mile. 00:32:54.599 --> 00:32:56.394 And, and have you begin to curate things? 00:32:56.934 --> 00:32:57.234 Nick Ross: No. 00:32:57.594 --> 00:32:58.014 No. 00:32:58.014 --> 00:33:01.164 And by, and by that stage, one of the other jobs he gave me was 00:33:01.169 --> 00:33:05.294 to, to organize, The friends of the Manchester City Art Gallery. 00:33:05.294 --> 00:33:08.964 So this, this, this, you know, if you like a membership, I used to 00:33:08.964 --> 00:33:12.444 organize events for them, and I think he go, you know, they went well. 00:33:12.444 --> 00:33:14.454 So I think he, he quite liked me for that. 00:33:15.114 --> 00:33:16.614 Is that the story of the cheetahs? 00:33:17.754 --> 00:33:18.234 Oh yeah. 00:33:20.334 --> 00:33:21.954 Rupert Isaacson: Tell us the story of the cheetah. 00:33:22.884 --> 00:33:23.424 Okay. 00:33:23.574 --> 00:33:24.564 Drum roll everybody. 00:33:24.954 --> 00:33:26.154 The story of 00:33:26.334 --> 00:33:26.994 Nick Ross: the cheetahs. 00:33:27.294 --> 00:33:27.684 Yeah. 00:33:28.074 --> 00:33:28.404 Okay. 00:33:28.404 --> 00:33:29.334 So, okay. 00:33:29.334 --> 00:33:30.024 I've gotta be careful. 00:33:30.294 --> 00:33:35.239 So, so, so there are the, at Manchester, there's the, there's the 00:33:35.239 --> 00:33:39.739 very, there's now very famous Stubbs, 18th century painter called Stubbs. 00:33:39.739 --> 00:33:43.819 Who's for, who is, who's better known for, for painting horses. 00:33:45.769 --> 00:33:50.659 But Stubbs did at one point a, a picture of two cheetah and two, two Moors, 00:33:51.379 --> 00:33:56.394 two, handlers, dressed beautifully in turbines and, and, north African 00:33:56.394 --> 00:33:59.514 Rupert Isaacson: dress tame cheetah being used for coursing for hunting. 00:34:00.114 --> 00:34:00.234 Yes. 00:34:00.234 --> 00:34:04.854 As they used to be used in the courts of Asia and the Middle 00:34:04.854 --> 00:34:05.574 East, right? 00:34:05.754 --> 00:34:06.024 Yeah. 00:34:06.294 --> 00:34:06.924 Nick Ross: And sorting. 00:34:06.924 --> 00:34:07.464 Great picture. 00:34:07.464 --> 00:34:10.144 Sort of, eight 12 feet square, something like that. 00:34:11.494 --> 00:34:13.174 And Tim Clifford bought it. 00:34:13.234 --> 00:34:16.354 And, and it's one of the, it's, it's a, you know, and this was 00:34:16.354 --> 00:34:17.344 what he was really good at. 00:34:17.344 --> 00:34:21.724 He was really good at finding pictures that had otherwise missed people's 00:34:21.724 --> 00:34:25.684 attention and buying them in anyway, so they were, they raised the money, 00:34:25.684 --> 00:34:28.684 they bought this picture and they were gonna have the big opening. 00:34:29.604 --> 00:34:34.984 And Tim got him in those days what was probably the best caterers in Manchester. 00:34:35.524 --> 00:34:40.054 And these, these two fantastic caterers came in and they looked at the pictures 00:34:40.564 --> 00:34:44.254 and they, they looked at the contents of the bit and they said, boys, we have 00:34:44.259 --> 00:34:48.074 got to have, Ethiopians as the waiters. 00:34:48.364 --> 00:34:52.724 And I don't think anybody would get away with this now, I have to say. 00:34:52.774 --> 00:34:53.884 But, but there's another era. 00:34:54.334 --> 00:34:54.514 Yeah. 00:34:54.994 --> 00:34:55.144 Yeah. 00:34:55.149 --> 00:35:00.224 So there was caviar, there was, there were these, Ethiopian men, beared to the 00:35:00.224 --> 00:35:02.414 waist wearing great pantaloons and so on. 00:35:03.779 --> 00:35:05.489 And he hired two Cheetah. 00:35:06.529 --> 00:35:07.349 Of course he did. 00:35:07.799 --> 00:35:08.519 Of course he did. 00:35:08.609 --> 00:35:11.899 And, and it was, it was due on a, on a Monday night. 00:35:11.959 --> 00:35:17.709 And, and the la the Manchester is, is, is a, a fantastic area of the world. 00:35:17.709 --> 00:35:18.969 It's brilliant, amazing city. 00:35:19.809 --> 00:35:24.374 And, the, it was bang in the middle of the minors strike. 00:35:24.374 --> 00:35:28.064 So in English history, British history, it was at a point when there 00:35:28.184 --> 00:35:34.224 was such social division, fostered, let's say by, by Margaret Thatcher. 00:35:34.664 --> 00:35:38.084 And, and a clash of the unions and the clash of ideologies. 00:35:38.654 --> 00:35:40.214 And, if you can imagine the. 00:35:41.084 --> 00:35:44.684 The, the, the, the left wing counselors in the town 00:35:44.684 --> 00:35:46.724 Rupert Isaacson: hall across the Yeah, it was class war, basically. 00:35:46.874 --> 00:35:47.204 Full on 00:35:47.204 --> 00:35:47.565 Nick Ross: class war. 00:35:47.570 --> 00:35:47.614 Yeah. 00:35:48.034 --> 00:35:51.914 And, and it was like the battleship Kin, they, they stormed the building 00:35:52.194 --> 00:35:54.644 and, and I was upstairs, so people 00:35:54.644 --> 00:35:57.064 Rupert Isaacson: with pitchforks and and torches outside, 00:35:57.214 --> 00:36:00.694 Nick Ross: roaring in and rushing up the stairs where they were met. 00:36:00.694 --> 00:36:03.604 Halfway up the steps by all of the conservative counselors 00:36:03.604 --> 00:36:04.804 who were in the party. 00:36:05.284 --> 00:36:10.234 And there was this handbag swinging, you know, fy casts, lots of wrestling 00:36:10.804 --> 00:36:15.154 in that slightly sort of drunk, posh English way of doing it. 00:36:15.374 --> 00:36:16.134 And, falling 00:36:16.294 --> 00:36:17.884 Rupert Isaacson: down the stairs in Tweed jackets. 00:36:17.884 --> 00:36:17.944 Yeah. 00:36:17.944 --> 00:36:19.414 Nick Ross: Tugging of shirts, everything. 00:36:19.744 --> 00:36:23.494 Anyway, the battle continued upstairs and, and, lots of pushing and shoving. 00:36:23.494 --> 00:36:28.964 And then at one point, somebody fell backwards into a plinth holding a, 00:36:28.964 --> 00:36:32.264 sporting an amazing Barack sculpture. 00:36:33.189 --> 00:36:36.759 By a man called Algar Algar, who's a sort of pupil of benini. 00:36:37.539 --> 00:36:39.129 And this thing wobbled. 00:36:39.429 --> 00:36:44.259 And you probably know that sensation if, if you tap, you tap something and, 00:36:44.309 --> 00:36:48.719 and whatever is unsecured on top will wobble and, and, and you know that 00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:49.999 it's probably best not to interfere. 00:36:50.739 --> 00:36:52.884 And, and, and, you can only watch, you can 00:36:52.884 --> 00:36:53.724 Rupert Isaacson: only watch in Ara. 00:36:54.204 --> 00:36:54.564 Nick Ross: Yeah. 00:36:55.134 --> 00:36:59.874 And, and anyway, instead of settling back down, there came a dreadful 00:36:59.874 --> 00:37:02.904 point when all of us realized because the fight had stopped. 00:37:02.904 --> 00:37:05.784 There was silence in the room as we all watched this wobble 00:37:06.324 --> 00:37:08.484 and, and it started to go. 00:37:09.324 --> 00:37:11.484 And, and this was priceless. 00:37:12.354 --> 00:37:18.994 And into that space left, one of the waiters who, who like a diving 00:37:19.414 --> 00:37:22.514 superman, but without a shirt on, dived across the, a great. 00:37:25.369 --> 00:37:26.299 Saved this thing. 00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:27.549 Wow. 00:37:27.849 --> 00:37:29.139 Yeah, no, it was a great night. 00:37:29.229 --> 00:37:29.859 It was a great night. 00:37:30.069 --> 00:37:32.379 Rupert Isaacson: Eh, then did all, did the counselors that had tried to storm 00:37:32.379 --> 00:37:36.729 the party then accept a drink and Yeah, it all gone down after that and that 00:37:36.789 --> 00:37:37.509 Nick Ross: brought everybody, 00:37:37.509 --> 00:37:38.409 Rupert Isaacson: everyone was mates again. 00:37:38.889 --> 00:37:39.219 Yeah. 00:37:39.369 --> 00:37:39.669 No. 00:37:40.629 --> 00:37:42.039 And the cheaters, how did they far, 00:37:42.749 --> 00:37:45.329 Nick Ross: you know, they, they kind of, nobody kind of took 00:37:45.329 --> 00:37:46.199 any notice of that anymore. 00:37:46.919 --> 00:37:50.039 It was, the party had created its own drama. 00:37:51.089 --> 00:37:51.419 Ah. 00:37:51.909 --> 00:37:53.074 Rupert Isaacson: there are, there are parties. 00:37:53.074 --> 00:37:53.584 And parties. 00:37:53.584 --> 00:37:54.334 That was a party. 00:37:54.724 --> 00:37:54.934 Nick Ross: Yeah. 00:37:54.934 --> 00:37:55.714 That was a great party. 00:37:56.044 --> 00:37:56.344 Yeah. 00:37:56.734 --> 00:38:01.124 Rupert Isaacson: okay, so you, you are there at the, at the museum now. 00:38:01.129 --> 00:38:01.784 For how long? 00:38:01.784 --> 00:38:02.234 How long do you 00:38:02.234 --> 00:38:03.104 Nick Ross: stay there for? 00:38:03.104 --> 00:38:07.274 For a year and then, and then, but, but, but, but it did its thing you see, 00:38:07.274 --> 00:38:12.584 because I wanted to get to university and, and, and so off the back of that, 00:38:12.674 --> 00:38:16.809 that, that being at the museum, I got an interview at, at University of Visa 00:38:16.809 --> 00:38:19.119 Sanger to go and read History of Art. 00:38:19.509 --> 00:38:19.839 Okay. 00:38:20.409 --> 00:38:20.709 Okay. 00:38:20.709 --> 00:38:24.489 So they saw me for an interview, and then during the interview I didn't 00:38:24.489 --> 00:38:27.159 really have, you know, a lot to go on. 00:38:27.159 --> 00:38:31.859 Not in terms of, results or qualifications, but they, they, in 00:38:31.859 --> 00:38:35.009 those days, and I think they still do a bit bit now, as quite often 00:38:35.009 --> 00:38:38.669 you'll just show somebody photographs of artifacts or things and, and 00:38:38.669 --> 00:38:39.899 say, you know, tell me about it. 00:38:40.409 --> 00:38:43.299 And, and, and it's a good system and you're trying to register 00:38:43.304 --> 00:38:44.829 somebody's visual acuity. 00:38:45.459 --> 00:38:50.719 And, anyway, I was shown a photograph of a painting, that I didn't know 00:38:50.724 --> 00:38:53.839 what it was, wh when it was painted, and I didn't know who it was by. 00:38:54.149 --> 00:38:57.059 and I didn't even really know the subject, but I knew where it was. 00:38:57.959 --> 00:39:01.759 And, and so I told this to a man called Eric Furney who was interviewing me. 00:39:01.764 --> 00:39:02.119 I said, I. 00:39:02.569 --> 00:39:05.179 Can't tell you anything about it, but I'll tell you where it is. 00:39:05.179 --> 00:39:07.039 And he said, oh, right, where is it? 00:39:07.489 --> 00:39:10.489 And I said, oh, well, you go to Florence and you go to the biggest square in 00:39:10.489 --> 00:39:13.939 Florence and there's a, there's a building in there with a huge, great 00:39:13.939 --> 00:39:15.499 tower, I dunno what it's called. 00:39:15.499 --> 00:39:18.229 But anyway, you go in there and you go in through the courtyard and you go to the 00:39:18.229 --> 00:39:21.500 staircase, you go out three flights of stairs and there's a door on your left. 00:39:21.739 --> 00:39:26.599 You go in that door and you're in a so great hall, and you take a a right, 00:39:26.599 --> 00:39:29.989 and you go to the right backhand corner and there are some steps. 00:39:29.994 --> 00:39:32.659 You go up there and it's a small room and it's the first painting on the left. 00:39:33.979 --> 00:39:35.929 And you remember this from when you were seven years old? 00:39:36.229 --> 00:39:36.649 Yeah. 00:39:37.399 --> 00:39:43.673 And, because it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a study for a guy called Francesco Mechi. 00:39:44.323 --> 00:39:47.273 And, and I was, and it is, and it's, it's hard to get into. 00:39:47.273 --> 00:39:48.983 And my dad got permission to get in there. 00:39:49.523 --> 00:39:54.863 And so we looked at, and, and now I know it's a, it's a story of Perus Ndro 00:39:55.793 --> 00:40:02.708 and, and it's the mythological reason why we had have red Coral, cuz Perus, 00:40:02.708 --> 00:40:07.658 when fighting Andromeda or fighting for Andromeda, is fighting a great dragon. 00:40:07.688 --> 00:40:13.058 And he whips out Medusa's head and to turn the dragon stone and he puts the 00:40:13.058 --> 00:40:18.338 head down, having turned the dragon stone and blood dribbles out of the neck, the 00:40:18.338 --> 00:40:24.428 severed neck of Medusa's head and dribbles into the sea and turns red and solidifies. 00:40:24.848 --> 00:40:25.928 And that's how he get, despite the fact that 00:40:25.928 --> 00:40:27.998 Rupert Isaacson: he's been carrying this stripping head 00:40:27.998 --> 00:40:29.078 around for quite a long time. 00:40:29.078 --> 00:40:30.248 It's stripped on other things, but 00:40:30.698 --> 00:40:33.038 Nick Ross: doesn't seem to have, yeah, he probably left all 00:40:33.043 --> 00:40:34.588 sorts of things, but, but that's 00:40:34.748 --> 00:40:36.938 Rupert Isaacson: why we have red poppies and red Yeah, red rocks. 00:40:36.938 --> 00:40:37.178 So 00:40:37.238 --> 00:40:37.838 Nick Ross: anything red? 00:40:37.843 --> 00:40:38.379 That's where we have it. 00:40:38.384 --> 00:40:38.548 Okay. 00:40:38.548 --> 00:40:39.148 Ah, well that's perfect. 00:40:39.148 --> 00:40:39.468 That's, yeah. 00:40:40.508 --> 00:40:41.408 Put it on somebody's pullover. 00:40:41.528 --> 00:40:44.768 But, but, but as a result of that, Furney said, well, if you can remember that, 00:40:44.768 --> 00:40:47.048 you can, you can, you can come here. 00:40:48.128 --> 00:40:50.438 Rupert Isaacson: And why did that picture stand out so much for you? 00:40:51.308 --> 00:40:53.918 Nick Ross: Oh, I think it was because my dad told me the story. 00:40:53.918 --> 00:40:55.029 I just happened to know. 00:40:56.003 --> 00:40:59.593 I couldn't remember any of the names, any of any, anything like that. 00:40:59.593 --> 00:40:59.743 But 00:40:59.743 --> 00:41:00.074 Rupert Isaacson: I couldn't remember. 00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:02.563 It wasn't, it wasn't the image so much as the story. 00:41:03.013 --> 00:41:03.373 Nick Ross: Yeah. 00:41:03.973 --> 00:41:05.503 And that was what my dad was really good at. 00:41:05.863 --> 00:41:07.753 Rupert Isaacson: Well, I mean that, that's something which I'd 00:41:07.753 --> 00:41:10.963 say marks out what you've done. 00:41:10.968 --> 00:41:15.403 So again, just for listeners back in the day, I was lucky enough 00:41:15.408 --> 00:41:20.413 to, teach a couple of history, sessions on some of Nick's, 00:41:20.683 --> 00:41:23.783 epic journeys around healthy, the best. 00:41:23.838 --> 00:41:24.318 yes. 00:41:24.378 --> 00:41:25.278 I dunno how we survived. 00:41:25.838 --> 00:41:31.538 but what I can tell you is that the story surrounding each painting, each 00:41:31.543 --> 00:41:37.628 sculpture, each building, each quarter of the city that Nick and his people would 00:41:38.048 --> 00:41:44.708 take us to, would come magically alive in a way that you can't say to a God. 00:41:44.708 --> 00:41:47.078 You can't say teacher, you can't say. 00:41:47.078 --> 00:41:48.818 And it's not, there's anything wrong with those. 00:41:49.493 --> 00:41:55.208 And it's not that those can't be fascinating, but story and Mythos 00:41:56.138 --> 00:42:04.698 story as its own art form is normally, separated from visual arts. 00:42:04.698 --> 00:42:07.488 It's normally the, the, the, the power of the visual art has a story. 00:42:07.488 --> 00:42:08.448 They talk about the story. 00:42:08.448 --> 00:42:11.778 They say in this cigar painting, he's talking about this and the story is 00:42:11.778 --> 00:42:15.078 this, but really what we want you to look at is his amazing composition or 00:42:15.078 --> 00:42:17.358 his amazing use of color or this or this. 00:42:18.378 --> 00:42:21.378 and for that reason, I've often found art, his, the way people 00:42:21.383 --> 00:42:24.888 present art history a bit boring rather than the Game of Thrones. 00:42:25.458 --> 00:42:30.018 Who was boning who, who was killing who, who was torturing who and therefore why 00:42:30.018 --> 00:42:34.308 this street looks like it does, or, or why this painting hangs on that particular 00:42:34.308 --> 00:42:39.228 war because somebody did this, something outrageous and funny and cruel and 00:42:39.528 --> 00:42:42.678 bananas and whoa, that's interesting. 00:42:43.518 --> 00:42:44.818 And I think that you have to have a special. 00:42:46.068 --> 00:42:47.058 Talent for this. 00:42:47.178 --> 00:42:54.378 and you know, some people put this down on the printed form and other 00:42:54.378 --> 00:42:57.138 people tell it as oral history. 00:42:57.138 --> 00:43:02.238 And one of the things which I think really stands out with art history abroad 00:43:02.238 --> 00:43:08.658 is it's really the art of oral history, in our modern day in a way that I don't 00:43:08.658 --> 00:43:12.498 think I've seen outside of some of the indigenous areas that I've worked in, 00:43:12.828 --> 00:43:14.598 where they passed mythologies on that way. 00:43:15.708 --> 00:43:17.028 So, okay. 00:43:17.028 --> 00:43:18.648 You are, you are off to university. 00:43:19.968 --> 00:43:23.118 I meet you because, you know, you are the cousin of someone 00:43:23.118 --> 00:43:24.198 I was at university with. 00:43:25.038 --> 00:43:25.578 There's Oh, yes. 00:43:25.758 --> 00:43:25.848 Yeah. 00:43:25.848 --> 00:43:26.268 Marion. 00:43:26.538 --> 00:43:27.348 Marion, yeah. 00:43:27.353 --> 00:43:31.128 There's, there's drunkenness, there's hilarity, there's the usual university 00:43:31.128 --> 00:43:36.258 stuff when you come to visit Marion and you and my friend Tom become chums 00:43:36.258 --> 00:43:38.238 because of a mutual love of art history. 00:43:38.238 --> 00:43:39.438 He's doing art history as well. 00:43:40.668 --> 00:43:41.119 At what point? 00:43:42.573 --> 00:43:50.883 Do you become a hha art history abroad and start taking people and revolutionizing 00:43:50.883 --> 00:43:52.233 the idea of the grand tour? 00:43:53.133 --> 00:43:57.993 How do you go from that student to that person making your 00:43:57.993 --> 00:43:58.953 Nick Ross: lesson doing this? 00:43:59.293 --> 00:44:02.893 so I started doing a, I started doing a PhD after I 00:44:02.953 --> 00:44:04.903 finished, after I got my degree. 00:44:04.993 --> 00:44:11.983 And, , and I've just realized, Ruth, that, I've got, if, if you can, if, 00:44:11.983 --> 00:44:14.173 and I may stick out on the recording. 00:44:14.173 --> 00:44:19.143 There's the, there's the dog at my feet snoring and, right 00:44:19.148 --> 00:44:21.783 Rupert Isaacson: now cuz I can hear my dog through the, through the door. 00:44:22.143 --> 00:44:22.323 Right. 00:44:22.328 --> 00:44:22.473 Okay. 00:44:22.803 --> 00:44:23.133 Okay. 00:44:23.133 --> 00:44:25.348 And I'm hoping that's not coming into the , Well, it may, it 00:44:25.348 --> 00:44:26.558 Nick Ross: may, it may show, 00:44:26.828 --> 00:44:28.418 Rupert Isaacson: does that show the power of oral history? 00:44:28.418 --> 00:44:31.028 If we can send, if we can send your dog to sleep, then you 00:44:31.028 --> 00:44:32.138 know, you can tell a story. 00:44:33.368 --> 00:44:33.608 Nick Ross: Yeah. 00:44:33.608 --> 00:44:36.458 No, it's, it's a, it's a pug called Doug. 00:44:36.488 --> 00:44:40.018 And, and the thing is that he, he finds enough di difficult enough 00:44:40.098 --> 00:44:44.338 breathing anyway, but when he is asleep, it's really noisy. 00:44:44.398 --> 00:44:47.028 And if I put him out of the door, he'll make so much bloody 00:44:47.028 --> 00:44:48.768 noise trying to get back in. 00:44:48.828 --> 00:44:48.948 Yes. 00:44:48.948 --> 00:44:50.838 That it's actually easier just to put up with 00:44:50.838 --> 00:44:50.988 Rupert Isaacson: him. 00:44:50.988 --> 00:44:54.828 So, passively resistance, I think I, I sadly I can't hear him now. 00:44:54.833 --> 00:44:57.648 All the now all the, now all the, we can, can you do it, can you give us 00:44:57.653 --> 00:44:59.298 a quick impression before you go on 00:44:59.298 --> 00:45:00.718 Nick Ross: to just leave him to it? 00:45:00.718 --> 00:45:04.498 Listen, not coming through on my microphone. 00:45:04.498 --> 00:45:04.948 No, he's not. 00:45:06.358 --> 00:45:07.168 I know he is just stopped. 00:45:07.168 --> 00:45:09.358 You'll have to listen anyway. 00:45:09.718 --> 00:45:10.288 Can you give us 00:45:10.288 --> 00:45:12.148 Rupert Isaacson: just a quick, give us your version of it 00:45:12.148 --> 00:45:13.198 quickly before you go on. 00:45:14.518 --> 00:45:18.628 Nick Ross: Oh, God, I can't even, it's so it's, I haven't got a cold. 00:45:18.628 --> 00:45:20.608 If I hadn't cold, I, I could do it. 00:45:20.608 --> 00:45:23.758 It's right up here in the, in 00:45:23.758 --> 00:45:24.298 Rupert Isaacson: the sinus. 00:45:24.748 --> 00:45:25.138 Yeah. 00:45:25.498 --> 00:45:25.828 Anyway. 00:45:26.308 --> 00:45:27.658 Oh, well, we'll have to, we'll have to imagine it. 00:45:27.748 --> 00:45:28.108 Okay. 00:45:28.678 --> 00:45:31.898 So you, you get your degree, you get, now you're on to do your PhD. 00:45:32.868 --> 00:45:33.158 Yeah. 00:45:33.418 --> 00:45:37.808 Nick Ross: So, so do doing the PhD and, , and I'm going backwards 00:45:37.808 --> 00:45:39.878 and forwards to, to do research. 00:45:40.148 --> 00:45:41.288 What do you think your PhD on? 00:45:42.428 --> 00:45:45.198 It, well, officially it was on, an quarian studies in 00:45:45.203 --> 00:45:46.578 early 17th century Rome. 00:45:46.688 --> 00:45:46.978 Okay. 00:45:47.478 --> 00:45:53.458 But what it's, what it is really is it's about a man called Kapok. 00:45:53.798 --> 00:45:56.888 And, but the important thing is that he's the publisher of 00:45:56.893 --> 00:46:00.648 Galileo, Galileo's Treatises. 00:46:01.008 --> 00:46:01.488 I see. 00:46:01.493 --> 00:46:02.958 And that's a risky thing to be, 00:46:03.408 --> 00:46:04.338 Rupert Isaacson: that's a risky thing to you. 00:46:04.428 --> 00:46:06.018 That gets you in trouble with the inquisition. 00:46:06.018 --> 00:46:06.138 Nick Ross: I should think. 00:46:07.098 --> 00:46:10.758 Yeah, but he was also papa secretary to Urban the aids. 00:46:11.298 --> 00:46:11.748 Okay. 00:46:12.168 --> 00:46:16.638 So he is got a foot in, in both corners, and that makes 00:46:16.638 --> 00:46:18.498 him fundamentally interesting. 00:46:19.428 --> 00:46:20.088 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:46:20.448 --> 00:46:25.398 And so when they tortured Galileo, did they not torture his publisher 00:46:25.403 --> 00:46:29.598 because his publisher could say, well, I don't, this doesn't necessarily 00:46:29.603 --> 00:46:31.908 reflect the views of the publisher. 00:46:32.178 --> 00:46:32.838 Disclaimer. 00:46:33.348 --> 00:46:33.588 Yeah. 00:46:33.978 --> 00:46:34.668 Nick Ross: That sort of thing. 00:46:34.668 --> 00:46:34.968 Yeah. 00:46:35.058 --> 00:46:35.628 Okay. 00:46:35.748 --> 00:46:36.138 That's why 00:46:36.138 --> 00:46:37.158 Rupert Isaacson: we have these disclaimers. 00:46:37.163 --> 00:46:37.518 Nick Ross: Got it. 00:46:38.208 --> 00:46:38.538 Yeah. 00:46:39.588 --> 00:46:41.283 And, and, oh, now I can hear your doc. 00:46:41.673 --> 00:46:44.043 Yeah, that was 00:46:44.303 --> 00:46:44.843 Rupert Isaacson: a good one, isn't it? 00:46:45.063 --> 00:46:45.843 It was a very good one. 00:46:45.843 --> 00:46:46.083 Yeah. 00:46:47.233 --> 00:46:47.763 Very good. 00:46:48.203 --> 00:46:53.813 Nick Ross: so, so anyway, so no, it's just that he, he, KA commissioned, people 00:46:53.813 --> 00:46:58.733 like Pusa and Salvador Ross and all sorts of really interesting artists and 00:46:58.733 --> 00:47:01.343 period to go off and draw antiquities. 00:47:02.213 --> 00:47:02.453 Okay. 00:47:03.113 --> 00:47:08.023 And, and geological specimens and flora, fauna, citrus 00:47:08.333 --> 00:47:08.603 Rupert Isaacson: fruit. 00:47:08.603 --> 00:47:16.343 So basically he, he's commissioning the anti ecclesiastical arts and sciences. 00:47:16.943 --> 00:47:17.063 Yes. 00:47:17.063 --> 00:47:21.513 And even to some degree the metaphysical ones, cuz we know Pusa, had his foot in 00:47:21.513 --> 00:47:26.983 the pagan, door as well to some degree in the sort of preason Rosa Crucian. 00:47:27.613 --> 00:47:30.643 Therefore, all of these things will get you locked up by 00:47:30.643 --> 00:47:31.753 the inquisition and worse. 00:47:32.253 --> 00:47:32.473 Yes. 00:47:32.533 --> 00:47:36.343 And you've got the, the popes, what is he 00:47:36.343 --> 00:47:37.753 Nick Ross: to the pope people secretary? 00:47:37.758 --> 00:47:39.373 Yeah, the papa secretary 00:47:39.373 --> 00:47:40.723 Rupert Isaacson: is commissioning these people. 00:47:41.293 --> 00:47:41.623 Yeah. 00:47:41.863 --> 00:47:42.403 Fascinating. 00:47:42.653 --> 00:47:42.943 Nick Ross: Okay. 00:47:43.273 --> 00:47:45.703 It's, it's like, I dunno what, what, what would it be 00:47:45.703 --> 00:47:47.263 in US terms, but certainly in. 00:47:47.673 --> 00:47:51.933 in the cabinet office, in, in UK terms, if somebody was in the cabinet office. 00:47:52.533 --> 00:47:52.653 Yeah. 00:47:52.733 --> 00:47:55.953 so your major, major, dip, yes. 00:47:55.953 --> 00:47:58.083 Rupert Isaacson: You'd be like, you'd be like a permanent secretary. 00:47:58.503 --> 00:47:58.923 Nick Ross: Yes. 00:47:59.133 --> 00:47:59.943 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:47:59.973 --> 00:48:00.333 Exactly. 00:48:00.423 --> 00:48:00.933 That's it. 00:48:01.983 --> 00:48:04.963 Rupert Isaacson: okay, so you're doing, so doing, you're doing your 00:48:05.053 --> 00:48:07.093 PhD in, in 17th century Roman? 00:48:07.093 --> 00:48:07.333 Yes. 00:48:07.333 --> 00:48:07.783 Minister. 00:48:08.533 --> 00:48:08.833 Yes. 00:48:10.843 --> 00:48:14.233 And do you then go on and finish this PhD? 00:48:14.773 --> 00:48:15.223 Nick Ross: No. 00:48:15.323 --> 00:48:21.613 cause because, the, with with, somebody called Donna, it's a, it's 00:48:21.613 --> 00:48:23.983 very largely her, her, her achievements. 00:48:23.983 --> 00:48:29.123 So I helped her a bit, found a huge archive and, and 00:48:29.243 --> 00:48:31.808 when we made that, Public. 00:48:31.958 --> 00:48:34.808 It changed the, the, it changed the rule. 00:48:34.808 --> 00:48:39.248 It changed the game really because the, the whole idea of a PhD is to find 00:48:39.248 --> 00:48:40.808 something that nobody else knows about. 00:48:42.108 --> 00:48:45.618 Certainly for, for a British PhD, cuz it has to be a real 00:48:46.068 --> 00:48:47.118 contribution to knowledge. 00:48:48.228 --> 00:48:52.388 So, it's not, it's a, and and the trouble was that others, other 00:48:52.388 --> 00:48:56.988 academics, much greater figures than me were taking an interest in 00:48:56.988 --> 00:48:58.878 the same field and then publishing. 00:48:59.568 --> 00:49:03.738 And that what that would do is it would take a large body of my research 00:49:04.098 --> 00:49:08.838 and turn it not from being a chapter in my PhD to being a footnote. 00:49:09.228 --> 00:49:09.618 Okay. 00:49:09.858 --> 00:49:14.148 Because I, I would effectively be a footnote to somebody else's 00:49:14.153 --> 00:49:16.788 research as opposed to You were ga 00:49:17.448 --> 00:49:18.018 Rupert Isaacson: basically. 00:49:18.798 --> 00:49:19.068 Yeah. 00:49:19.638 --> 00:49:19.968 Yeah. 00:49:20.238 --> 00:49:20.688 Okay. 00:49:20.693 --> 00:49:22.848 And how, how far into your PhD was, was this? 00:49:23.688 --> 00:49:24.408 Three years. 00:49:24.768 --> 00:49:27.018 So again, that moment of despair probably. 00:49:28.068 --> 00:49:28.728 Nick Ross: Oh, yeah. 00:49:28.968 --> 00:49:30.288 But, but yes. 00:49:30.378 --> 00:49:36.418 And the thing is that if Donatella could read, could read Latin, like, reading 00:49:36.418 --> 00:49:40.918 the, the Times, you know, she, she, and she was a friend of me, I presume. 00:49:41.428 --> 00:49:41.758 Yeah. 00:49:41.758 --> 00:49:44.303 And, the most remarkable, remarkable mind. 00:49:44.633 --> 00:49:47.033 And so, and, and I, and I wasn't good enough. 00:49:47.223 --> 00:49:50.823 Quite simply, I, my Latin, my Italian wasn't good enough. 00:49:51.413 --> 00:49:54.953 And I would never, I would never, you know, it was pointed out to me by a 00:49:55.013 --> 00:49:58.673 very nice guy at the British Museum that in the nicest possible ways, 00:49:58.678 --> 00:50:02.543 he said, he said, Nick, you, you're not, you're just not good enough. 00:50:02.543 --> 00:50:03.383 You're not bright enough. 00:50:03.553 --> 00:50:05.203 and you will never keep up. 00:50:05.293 --> 00:50:06.403 And he was absolutely right. 00:50:07.333 --> 00:50:07.633 But there 00:50:07.633 --> 00:50:09.013 Rupert Isaacson: are lots of people out there getting PhDs 00:50:09.018 --> 00:50:10.333 who don't speak fluent Latin. 00:50:10.333 --> 00:50:12.943 So he, he, he meant just in this 00:50:12.943 --> 00:50:16.963 Nick Ross: field that, yeah, that what I needed was, was to be able 00:50:16.968 --> 00:50:20.933 to really pretty, pretty tricky documents really, really quickly. 00:50:21.323 --> 00:50:21.613 Okay. 00:50:21.613 --> 00:50:22.573 And I couldn't do it. 00:50:22.933 --> 00:50:24.343 Rupert Isaacson: So at that point, do you give up. 00:50:25.798 --> 00:50:26.578 Nick Ross: Sorry, at that point. 00:50:26.578 --> 00:50:27.568 At that point, do you give up? 00:50:28.138 --> 00:50:28.528 Yeah. 00:50:28.798 --> 00:50:29.068 Yeah. 00:50:29.158 --> 00:50:33.248 And but, but, but also by that stage, I'd been teaching for Aha 00:50:33.418 --> 00:50:37.078 for a couple of years because I was, I was doing my research and I 00:50:37.078 --> 00:50:39.268 needed money, so I taught for a hha. 00:50:39.568 --> 00:50:40.018 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:50:40.023 --> 00:50:42.088 So how did you discover a HHA artist? 00:50:43.378 --> 00:50:45.628 Nick Ross: a friend mentioned it, I can't remember who mentioned it. 00:50:46.078 --> 00:50:50.548 And then put me in touch with Sarah Carum, who was the original founder with 00:50:50.548 --> 00:50:52.558 Robert Woodward, who he mentioned earlier. 00:50:52.738 --> 00:50:53.028 Yeah. 00:50:53.908 --> 00:50:55.468 And a guy called Rodney Portman. 00:50:55.818 --> 00:50:56.108 Okay. 00:50:56.113 --> 00:51:00.748 And, and the, the, there was another partner, but they, they kind of ran 00:51:00.748 --> 00:51:02.878 it and they ran one course a year. 00:51:03.298 --> 00:51:04.838 And, and I was teaching on that. 00:51:04.898 --> 00:51:10.118 And then I did some lecturing around schools, drumming up trade 00:51:10.238 --> 00:51:11.858 while doing my own research. 00:51:12.608 --> 00:51:17.948 And, and, and it was a sort of more or less balanced life and, and, And 00:51:17.948 --> 00:51:23.408 then I, I really began to enjoy being a generalist, as opposed to a specialist. 00:51:23.698 --> 00:51:27.058 And that's what the, and then when somebody said, actually, you're not clever 00:51:27.063 --> 00:51:31.108 enough to be a specialist, I thought, well, actually stuff being a specialist, 00:51:31.108 --> 00:51:33.088 I'm really enjoying being a generalist. 00:51:33.418 --> 00:51:34.678 I want to know about everything. 00:51:35.068 --> 00:51:35.488 That's 00:51:35.848 --> 00:51:37.553 Rupert Isaacson: a very positive, way to look at it. 00:51:37.558 --> 00:51:41.723 In retrospect, at the time, did you wanna chuck yourself off a bridge or think shit? 00:51:41.723 --> 00:51:44.813 You know, I'm here I am again, starting again. 00:51:44.873 --> 00:51:47.333 Here I am three years into a PhD. 00:51:47.333 --> 00:51:51.113 I've spent all this money, I've, you know, I, I, I've got to, you know, 00:51:51.473 --> 00:51:54.323 and now I've got to be a generalist. 00:51:54.323 --> 00:51:54.653 What is this? 00:51:54.653 --> 00:51:56.663 You know, I mean, there must be, 00:51:56.783 --> 00:52:00.593 Nick Ross: okay, so I'm sure in that little period after lunch at about three 00:52:00.593 --> 00:52:06.338 o'clock, In most people's lives, there is a point at which you think to yourself, 00:52:06.338 --> 00:52:08.258 why, why on earth am I doing this? 00:52:08.298 --> 00:52:08.588 Yeah. 00:52:08.593 --> 00:52:12.258 And and, and and I was having lots of three o'clock moments 00:52:12.258 --> 00:52:14.628 thinking, what am I, what am I doing? 00:52:15.018 --> 00:52:18.648 Sitting in the North Library at the British Museum trying to catalog drawings. 00:52:18.888 --> 00:52:20.868 So I, there aren't really very interesting. 00:52:21.108 --> 00:52:24.258 Some of them are fascinating, but quite a lot of the time it's rather hard work. 00:52:24.738 --> 00:52:25.008 Yeah. 00:52:25.188 --> 00:52:28.748 And, and, and I thought nobody, you know, I'm not going to, I'm 00:52:28.753 --> 00:52:30.518 not, I'm not gonna solve cancer. 00:52:30.518 --> 00:52:35.678 I'm not going to, you know, I, me and about six other people are really 00:52:35.678 --> 00:52:37.299 interested in this and that's it. 00:52:37.488 --> 00:52:37.838 Right. 00:52:37.858 --> 00:52:39.698 And it's not gonna change the world. 00:52:40.148 --> 00:52:40.478 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:52:40.538 --> 00:52:43.958 I'm not gonna bring major joy to millions of people this way. 00:52:44.018 --> 00:52:44.888 Nick Ross: No, no. 00:52:45.178 --> 00:52:46.448 Or, or solve anything. 00:52:46.448 --> 00:52:48.698 So, so do it. 00:52:48.698 --> 00:52:50.858 Sounds dramatic to give it up after three years. 00:52:50.858 --> 00:52:53.108 But, but I really enjoyed the three years. 00:52:53.108 --> 00:52:55.838 I learned a hell of a lot, I learned a lot about how to 00:52:55.838 --> 00:52:56.718 research and things like that. 00:52:57.563 --> 00:52:58.853 There's lots of pluses. 00:52:58.883 --> 00:53:00.863 I just didn't come away with a doctorate. 00:53:01.823 --> 00:53:04.733 Rupert Isaacson: So at what point do you flip from there to 00:53:05.543 --> 00:53:07.103 full-time and then to running? 00:53:08.243 --> 00:53:08.573 Aha. 00:53:09.263 --> 00:53:13.673 Nick Ross: So, so then, then, Robert and Sarah Kagan asked me 00:53:13.673 --> 00:53:15.263 if I'd be a director at a hha. 00:53:16.093 --> 00:53:17.263 And I said, great. 00:53:17.263 --> 00:53:22.903 And I put a little bit of money in and, then quite soon we went bust and I don't 00:53:22.903 --> 00:53:26.633 think it was me, but it, there was, there was a snap procession, I don't 00:53:26.638 --> 00:53:28.763 know if you remember early nineties. 00:53:29.123 --> 00:53:29.543 Yeah. 00:53:29.543 --> 00:53:32.123 And Norman Lamont and Yes, I do remember that. 00:53:32.483 --> 00:53:34.013 Or that whole business about, 00:53:34.113 --> 00:53:34.443 Rupert Isaacson: that's right. 00:53:34.443 --> 00:53:36.603 When we all came out of university and there were no jobs. 00:53:36.603 --> 00:53:37.203 Yeah, yeah, 00:53:37.203 --> 00:53:37.534 Nick Ross: yeah, yeah. 00:53:37.683 --> 00:53:38.223 Exactly. 00:53:38.493 --> 00:53:38.703 Yeah. 00:53:39.053 --> 00:53:41.523 And, and that happened. 00:53:42.033 --> 00:53:43.953 So a HHA ran outta students. 00:53:45.273 --> 00:53:45.543 Got it. 00:53:45.543 --> 00:53:46.653 We were effectively bused. 00:53:47.463 --> 00:53:52.743 And the only way out of it was for Sarah and me to go uns salaried for 00:53:52.743 --> 00:53:55.833 a year, or, you know, in perpetuity. 00:53:55.838 --> 00:53:57.513 We had no idea how long it would last. 00:53:58.053 --> 00:54:02.883 And the, and quite by chance, a publishing house called Studio Editions 00:54:03.133 --> 00:54:05.363 asked if I'd write a book on Canto. 00:54:06.133 --> 00:54:09.733 And I wrote back and I said, well, I dunno very much about him, but, and they 00:54:09.733 --> 00:54:11.293 said, we actually, we don't really care. 00:54:11.353 --> 00:54:14.113 All we need is 32,000 words in six weeks. 00:54:14.113 --> 00:54:14.833 Could you do it? 00:54:15.493 --> 00:54:18.543 And and I did, and it was about the only thing I've ever done on time. 00:54:18.943 --> 00:54:20.468 And, they were so impressed. 00:54:20.468 --> 00:54:24.218 They gave me lots of other things to write, which I couldn't fit in. 00:54:24.218 --> 00:54:28.508 So, Sarah wrote some of them and then Tom Parsons wrote others. 00:54:29.008 --> 00:54:32.518 and that kept you afloat and that, and that sort of, we turned 00:54:32.523 --> 00:54:33.708 it into this writing machine. 00:54:34.478 --> 00:54:38.543 And, We weren't working closely together, but, but I, I think between 00:54:38.543 --> 00:54:44.218 the three or four of us, we produced, I dunno, 8, 9, 10 books, in a year. 00:54:44.608 --> 00:54:47.848 Rupert Isaacson: So the universe came in just when you were thinking, okay, 00:54:47.848 --> 00:54:52.948 here's this un unlikely way to make a living, which is taking people on the 00:54:52.948 --> 00:54:59.278 17th Century Grand tour and opening their brains and minds and spirits 00:54:59.278 --> 00:55:05.098 up to the arts and the metaphysics of the Renaissance and classical period. 00:55:05.848 --> 00:55:07.738 And then everything goes bust. 00:55:08.338 --> 00:55:11.008 And then the universe says, well, but how about becoming a writing 00:55:11.013 --> 00:55:15.358 machine for this same thing out of the blue in the middle of a recession? 00:55:15.358 --> 00:55:16.648 That's very interesting. 00:55:16.653 --> 00:55:20.458 Oh, and by the way, here's so much of this work that you can't even cope with 00:55:20.463 --> 00:55:23.128 it, that you're gonna have to give it to all your mates to keep them afloat too. 00:55:23.168 --> 00:55:23.328 Yeah. 00:55:23.428 --> 00:55:25.318 Nick Ross: And then we are all get, and then we Yeah. 00:55:25.498 --> 00:55:27.448 No, the the, it's a good odd universe. 00:55:27.453 --> 00:55:27.688 Yeah, 00:55:28.438 --> 00:55:30.248 Rupert Isaacson: but I mean, if, if that's not, if that's not providence 00:55:30.248 --> 00:55:31.798 at work, I don't know what is. 00:55:31.798 --> 00:55:32.488 And if that's not. 00:55:33.223 --> 00:55:36.613 Fortune favoring the brave, I dunno what is, because, again, just back to 00:55:36.618 --> 00:55:40.393 that thing, the listeners, you know, that's the whole point really of this, 00:55:40.393 --> 00:55:45.213 of this podcast is, those of us who were brought up like me, with lots 00:55:45.218 --> 00:55:48.783 of different passions and interests, constantly being told you're never 00:55:48.783 --> 00:55:49.863 gonna make a living doing that. 00:55:49.863 --> 00:55:53.103 And that's all I've ever done is making a living doing those things. 00:55:54.243 --> 00:55:57.783 I love these stories when it, it's those things where you say, out of 00:55:57.783 --> 00:56:03.753 the blue came this series of book contracts because I mean, getting a 00:56:03.758 --> 00:56:08.193 book contract, we know getting a book contract is a dash difficult thing to do. 00:56:08.193 --> 00:56:09.483 It's not an easy thing. 00:56:09.843 --> 00:56:11.823 You don't just go around getting book contracts. 00:56:12.123 --> 00:56:16.323 I'm a, I've been a writer for decades and I don't just go around getting book pump 00:56:16.323 --> 00:56:18.183 contracts every time I have to get one. 00:56:18.183 --> 00:56:19.023 I have to get one from scratch. 00:56:19.023 --> 00:56:19.863 It's a whole process. 00:56:20.343 --> 00:56:21.123 I might not get one. 00:56:21.128 --> 00:56:24.663 Not every idea that I have gets accepted, even though I've written bestsellers. 00:56:24.663 --> 00:56:25.563 It's just not like that. 00:56:25.563 --> 00:56:27.513 It's, you know, it's a business like any other. 00:56:28.213 --> 00:56:32.763 And, So for that to drop out of Providence, like 00:56:32.763 --> 00:56:34.743 that is interesting to me. 00:56:35.343 --> 00:56:37.923 So clearly you guys had made some sort of leap of faith. 00:56:38.823 --> 00:56:42.093 So in the meantime, you continue to run the business 00:56:42.633 --> 00:56:44.163 while then writing these books. 00:56:44.163 --> 00:56:44.733 Is that right? 00:56:44.738 --> 00:56:45.273 And yeah. 00:56:45.543 --> 00:56:45.873 Nick Ross: Yeah. 00:56:45.873 --> 00:56:50.643 And then, and then at, at some point we try and sell the business, 00:56:50.643 --> 00:56:52.473 but it, it's got no assets. 00:56:52.473 --> 00:56:54.393 It's got, it's only got goodwill. 00:56:54.423 --> 00:56:58.053 And so the accountants said, look, there's enough room for one of you 00:56:58.058 --> 00:57:03.453 to do it, but, but it will, you know, so, so Sarah who had been at the 00:57:03.458 --> 00:57:07.534 beginning, was offered and she, she said that she didn't want to run it. 00:57:07.539 --> 00:57:10.323 And I said, well, if nobody else wants to run it, I'll give it a go. 00:57:11.133 --> 00:57:16.233 I had no, no children, no girlfriend, no wife, no responsibilities. 00:57:16.233 --> 00:57:19.533 So I thought, well, let's, let's just give it a try. 00:57:19.863 --> 00:57:20.403 I seem to 00:57:20.408 --> 00:57:22.293 Rupert Isaacson: remember actually this jogs a memory that you were 00:57:22.293 --> 00:57:24.003 sleeping in a corridor at this point. 00:57:24.063 --> 00:57:27.783 Nick Ross: Yeah, no, I, I then, I then moved to live with my 00:57:27.783 --> 00:57:29.283 brother in Devon in the corridor. 00:57:29.283 --> 00:57:30.153 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, that's right. 00:57:30.153 --> 00:57:30.993 I remember the corridor. 00:57:31.143 --> 00:57:31.383 Nick Ross: Yep. 00:57:31.473 --> 00:57:31.803 Yeah. 00:57:32.223 --> 00:57:34.383 And the, the, the desk a few places. 00:57:34.383 --> 00:57:34.653 Yeah. 00:57:35.253 --> 00:57:38.638 And the desk was, by a sheet pen in one of his bands. 00:57:39.058 --> 00:57:43.469 So quite often if I was on the blower on the phone, you know, you had the, 00:57:43.948 --> 00:57:47.158 the, the, the barring of sheep in the background and stuff like that. 00:57:47.158 --> 00:57:48.808 Not, not unlike dog now. 00:57:48.988 --> 00:57:49.198 Yeah. 00:57:49.198 --> 00:57:49.618 Really, 00:57:49.618 --> 00:57:50.998 Rupert Isaacson: really, it's bucolic. 00:57:51.658 --> 00:57:55.178 you could sort of a po sound like, aesthetic to the, to the thing. 00:57:55.328 --> 00:57:55.478 Yeah. 00:57:55.838 --> 00:57:57.938 Just a little church bell in the distance perhaps. 00:57:58.778 --> 00:58:00.858 at what point did it start working 00:58:00.858 --> 00:58:01.248 Nick Ross: for you? 00:58:03.138 --> 00:58:03.168 Ooh. 00:58:03.528 --> 00:58:05.538 Rupert Isaacson: and how, how did you get it to start working? 00:58:06.618 --> 00:58:09.073 Nick Ross: Oh, well, I think, I think, we diversified. 00:58:09.073 --> 00:58:11.893 It started looking at schools, doing school strips. 00:58:12.838 --> 00:58:16.828 To be honest, we, I didn't have any money for advertising or marketing. 00:58:17.218 --> 00:58:18.778 So the, the only thing, 00:58:19.048 --> 00:58:20.758 Rupert Isaacson: and this is all pre-social media, right? 00:58:21.298 --> 00:58:21.688 Oh yeah, 00:58:21.958 --> 00:58:22.318 Nick Ross: yeah. 00:58:23.218 --> 00:58:26.598 And and, so we thought, we thought the only thing to do is to, or 00:58:26.598 --> 00:58:27.808 I thought, just run everything. 00:58:28.388 --> 00:58:33.238 So I even one trip, I remember a family, it was a trip that was 00:58:33.238 --> 00:58:38.378 advertised to go to, Florence, and there was only one couple who signed up. 00:58:38.858 --> 00:58:43.118 And, so I said, I rang them about two weeks before and I said, look, I'm 00:58:43.118 --> 00:58:45.308 really sorry, but it's only you and me. 00:58:45.588 --> 00:58:48.408 I'll, I'll give you your money back, you know, it's fine. 00:58:48.888 --> 00:58:50.448 And they said, no, no, we're sharing a bed. 00:58:50.508 --> 00:58:52.608 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 00:58:52.968 --> 00:58:54.498 Anyway, they said, that's fine, that's great. 00:58:54.498 --> 00:58:57.828 In fact, we'd much prefer it that way anyway, it turned out 00:58:57.858 --> 00:59:03.393 that they were, really very significant, manufacturers in Europe. 00:59:03.768 --> 00:59:05.348 and, from a huge family. 00:59:05.888 --> 00:59:10.658 And, and I have quite simply lost count of the hun, how many hundreds of 00:59:10.663 --> 00:59:15.098 thousands of pounds of trade over the last 30 years we've had through them. 00:59:15.808 --> 00:59:20.708 I, in fact, one of their grandchildren or great grandchildren 00:59:21.028 --> 00:59:22.768 I took on a trip only last week. 00:59:23.418 --> 00:59:28.008 so, so, again, you know, universe, whatever you like, you know, just, 00:59:28.398 --> 00:59:30.228 just plays into your hands sometimes. 00:59:30.288 --> 00:59:32.228 And, I didn't wanna let them down. 00:59:32.278 --> 00:59:36.449 and they didn't, and they wanted to do something exclusive, and they got it. 00:59:36.478 --> 00:59:40.018 And, and yet it turned into a, a really big story in the end. 00:59:41.458 --> 00:59:45.493 And I think your, your, your overall point is that history is a series of paradox. 00:59:46.043 --> 00:59:51.493 is, is, the, the, the, the, the, the, the trouble with life is that we tend 00:59:51.493 --> 00:59:54.103 to try and make things neat and tidy. 00:59:55.573 --> 00:59:59.833 And, and also the problem with text is that, and that's why I haven't, I've 00:59:59.833 --> 01:00:04.873 haven't written anything for a long time, is that text is inevitably sequential. 01:00:05.383 --> 01:00:08.953 Music fortunately is less sequential. 01:00:09.443 --> 01:00:11.993 Our thoughts are certainly not sequential. 01:00:12.363 --> 01:00:14.623 We tend to think of several things all at the same time. 01:00:15.723 --> 01:00:19.413 And, and we feel several things all at the same time. 01:00:21.118 --> 01:00:24.958 And the problem with text is that it means that everything has to be laid 01:00:24.958 --> 01:00:30.268 out in an orderly way, but, but actually the way life works, the way we operate 01:00:30.658 --> 01:00:35.098 isn't in straight lines and doesn't one and one thing doesn't follow another. 01:00:35.518 --> 01:00:41.618 It's a series of threads jumbled up in a, in a sort of rather, delicious mess. 01:00:42.118 --> 01:00:43.348 And that's half the fun. 01:00:43.378 --> 01:00:44.588 That's, that's the point. 01:00:45.568 --> 01:00:51.508 and, and I don't think a usual academic training of arranging everything into 01:00:51.508 --> 01:00:54.278 logical lines is necessarily very helpful. 01:00:54.688 --> 01:00:57.868 It's just a, an effective way of teaching. 01:00:58.318 --> 01:01:03.628 But actually, if you are going to be in the position of managing, events 01:01:03.628 --> 01:01:08.498 around you or people, or marshaling, others to try and go forward, the 01:01:08.498 --> 01:01:10.238 best way to do it is in a mess. 01:01:11.288 --> 01:01:14.228 Because that's the way we all think to, to 01:01:14.228 --> 01:01:15.308 Rupert Isaacson: find your order through 01:01:15.308 --> 01:01:15.848 Nick Ross: chaos. 01:01:16.253 --> 01:01:16.733 Yes. 01:01:17.363 --> 01:01:21.953 So when, if I give somebody responsibility, I don't, I want, I want, 01:01:21.953 --> 01:01:23.903 I, I'm quite happy with it being messy. 01:01:25.193 --> 01:01:25.883 Do you see what I mean? 01:01:25.883 --> 01:01:29.683 I, because, because that is a sort of a reflection of 01:01:29.688 --> 01:01:31.213 the way we all behave anyway. 01:01:32.053 --> 01:01:37.763 I don't want somebody, because it's imagination comes out of mess outta chaos. 01:01:38.123 --> 01:01:39.043 Primal chaos doesn't come outta, 01:01:41.383 --> 01:01:42.913 Rupert Isaacson: you know, I'm just thinking, you know. 01:01:44.833 --> 01:01:45.433 Here you are. 01:01:45.913 --> 01:01:53.203 why would one want to send one's young people out on a journey apart 01:01:53.208 --> 01:01:56.883 from the educational aspect of it through, for example, your company. 01:01:59.713 --> 01:02:01.393 What life lessons are they going to learn? 01:02:01.393 --> 01:02:03.853 But I, I think that that's exactly it. 01:02:03.853 --> 01:02:09.343 And I think that that's what people were aiming for 300 years ago on the 01:02:09.343 --> 01:02:13.843 grand tour too, was to understand the complexities of life, understand 01:02:13.843 --> 01:02:17.593 the ambivalences of life, understand that things are not black and white. 01:02:17.823 --> 01:02:23.233 Understand that things are paradoxical and how to become comfortable with discomfort 01:02:23.323 --> 01:02:26.353 and can you find ordering chaos? 01:02:27.073 --> 01:02:30.173 Can you find, entertaining chaos when there's too much order? 01:02:31.013 --> 01:02:33.023 Can you dance that dance in between? 01:02:33.023 --> 01:02:37.283 And that dance of life is quality of life and the difference between 01:02:37.283 --> 01:02:38.753 mere survival and thriving. 01:02:39.713 --> 01:02:39.833 Yeah. 01:02:39.913 --> 01:02:42.133 and that's what producers culture, that's what producers are. 01:02:42.193 --> 01:02:45.883 That's what, you know, when you, when you said, well, you know, I had to give up 01:02:45.883 --> 01:02:52.093 the PhD, but what's the point of being a specialist in something that isn't going 01:02:52.093 --> 01:02:55.453 to really positively affect the lives of. 01:02:56.278 --> 01:02:59.128 Many, but to go out and get those sorts of life lessons. 01:02:59.128 --> 01:03:04.318 And I know that some of the people who have gone on your trips over 01:03:04.318 --> 01:03:09.478 the years have ended up in public office and as you know, captains 01:03:09.478 --> 01:03:11.158 of industry and that sort of thing. 01:03:11.908 --> 01:03:17.568 And I would want those people cuz they affect my life to have some 01:03:17.878 --> 01:03:19.318 sort of humanistic perspective. 01:03:20.548 --> 01:03:24.658 and this idea of the humanities is something which you go 01:03:24.658 --> 01:03:25.918 and study academically. 01:03:26.968 --> 01:03:32.008 I don't think you can, you, you, you can say, well that piece of art is called 01:03:32.008 --> 01:03:37.768 that anymore than you can learn history by saying Battle of cause in 1415. 01:03:38.398 --> 01:03:44.158 Well, okay, but why was it and what did it mean? 01:03:44.163 --> 01:03:50.038 Was it just some sort of trade skirmish or did it actually affect. 01:03:50.473 --> 01:03:53.233 You know, the way we think about things right now is that why we've 01:03:53.233 --> 01:03:55.243 remembered it and we didn't remember the one that happened the week 01:03:55.243 --> 01:03:56.743 before, which, which got forgotten. 01:03:58.123 --> 01:04:01.393 Someone has to open one's eyes to this. 01:04:01.493 --> 01:04:01.783 Nick Ross: Yeah. 01:04:01.788 --> 01:04:01.993 Yeah. 01:04:02.093 --> 01:04:06.423 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, Nick It seems to me, from my experience with AHA, 01:04:06.423 --> 01:04:15.103 that I experienced a great sense of freedom when I attended the course, and 01:04:15.103 --> 01:04:20.698 I Heard this from the other people on the course, and I've been hearing this 01:04:21.358 --> 01:04:23.868 ever since, and it's counterintuitive. 01:04:23.928 --> 01:04:26.208 You wouldn't have thought it's paradoxical again. 01:04:26.208 --> 01:04:31.908 We talked about paradox, that going to see art and experiencing 01:04:31.908 --> 01:04:37.118 art in this way gives one freedom. 01:04:37.118 --> 01:04:41.328 You'd think freedom is walking in the mountains or flying an airplane or riding 01:04:41.328 --> 01:04:49.638 a horse or something, but yet there seems to be a freedom that gets unlocked. 01:04:51.528 --> 01:04:57.948 In the human imagination, which is our greatest freedom through the 01:04:58.058 --> 01:05:02.288 physical journeys, through the art. 01:05:02.328 --> 01:05:05.018 And I just wondered if you could speak to that a little bit. 01:05:05.138 --> 01:05:06.678 What have you noticed? 01:05:06.678 --> 01:05:09.968 What have you, how has this happened for you? 01:05:10.218 --> 01:05:13.728 And then how have you, what made you then think, Oh yeah, I could, I could, 01:05:14.498 --> 01:05:15.798 I could give this to other people. 01:05:15.798 --> 01:05:19.928 Because it's, it's not something that people would normally 01:05:19.968 --> 01:05:21.238 think of as a route to freedom. 01:05:24.113 --> 01:05:24.653 Nick Ross: Interesting. 01:05:24.963 --> 01:05:25.313 Okay. 01:05:25.343 --> 01:05:32.603 So, so yes if you, if you take, take the point that, you know, what we do 01:05:32.663 --> 01:05:36.753 at Art History Abroad usually happens after people have finished one big 01:05:36.753 --> 01:05:38.443 section of their formal education. 01:05:39.013 --> 01:05:44.683 So they're 18 or 19, all of which is about doing the intellectual 01:05:44.683 --> 01:05:50.823 gymnastics, in order to pole vault through examinations to matriculate 01:05:51.483 --> 01:05:53.603 and, and get onto university. 01:05:55.903 --> 01:06:00.793 We have an opportunity which is to run a course which is essentially 01:06:00.793 --> 01:06:06.323 educational, but it has no reading list, it has no essays, it has no marking, 01:06:06.323 --> 01:06:08.333 it has no examination at the end of it. 01:06:08.353 --> 01:06:11.033 It is learning quite simply for the love of learning. 01:06:11.603 --> 01:06:15.563 Now, of course, I can't, in a way, I can't really say that on a website because 01:06:16.423 --> 01:06:18.233 people would never buy our courses. 01:06:18.333 --> 01:06:22.263 Because it's, you know, that sounds a little bit watery, let's say. 01:06:23.473 --> 01:06:25.143 But to me, it's a very real thing. 01:06:25.143 --> 01:06:29.273 And I think it is for anybody who's experienced teaching in that way and 01:06:29.283 --> 01:06:30.593 being at the receiving end of it. 01:06:31.113 --> 01:06:36.803 And the reason I think it's so is that the very, the very point about being 01:06:36.803 --> 01:06:41.468 on site is an all round experience. 01:06:41.968 --> 01:06:42.848 You're getting there. 01:06:43.588 --> 01:06:47.828 You're seeing things in life size as opposed to on a tiny image on a phone. 01:06:48.488 --> 01:06:52.528 There are the smells, there's the sound, there's the stepping around other 01:06:52.528 --> 01:06:56.768 people who may be praying in a church trying to do things to avoid mass. 01:06:57.233 --> 01:06:58.423 And all of those things. 01:06:58.433 --> 01:07:02.963 So you are super aware of everybody else and your 01:07:02.963 --> 01:07:04.533 environment when you're doing this. 01:07:05.113 --> 01:07:09.833 And then you get in front of the thing that you've, the, the, the, 01:07:09.873 --> 01:07:11.703 the, the quest you get there. 01:07:12.453 --> 01:07:17.223 And at that point, it's can be thrilling, especially if it's a really well known 01:07:17.233 --> 01:07:19.453 thing that people have heard about. 01:07:19.953 --> 01:07:25.863 And, and so to finally get there to the end of it is, as I say, it's thrilling. 01:07:25.863 --> 01:07:26.873 It's really exciting. 01:07:26.903 --> 01:07:30.083 People get really excited, burst into tears every so often, but 01:07:30.613 --> 01:07:33.433 oddly enough, people cry more in Rome than anywhere else. 01:07:33.463 --> 01:07:38.178 But, but that, that that, that I think is because it's a uniquely emotional 01:07:38.188 --> 01:07:40.348 place for so many reasons, but. 01:07:40.878 --> 01:07:45.528 But it's partly quest and you get there and it's thrilling. 01:07:45.548 --> 01:07:47.778 It's really exciting to be in that space. 01:07:48.908 --> 01:07:54.148 And then if as a teaching experience and learning experience, it's not 01:07:54.148 --> 01:07:59.178 all about the delivery of didactic information of being told the dates 01:07:59.178 --> 01:08:00.448 of when it was done and all of that. 01:08:00.768 --> 01:08:02.558 All of that can be fed in. 01:08:03.643 --> 01:08:04.663 at different points. 01:08:04.693 --> 01:08:06.393 But it's not as if you start there. 01:08:06.393 --> 01:08:10.013 It's a case of, well, where's the best place to be looking at this from? 01:08:10.033 --> 01:08:11.713 How, actually, how big it is? 01:08:11.713 --> 01:08:13.413 It says here that it should be so big. 01:08:13.433 --> 01:08:14.213 Is it that big? 01:08:14.223 --> 01:08:18.543 Or, you know, pacing out a building looking at it from different angles. 01:08:18.793 --> 01:08:24.598 If it's a picture that, let's say, should be seen from a devotional kneeling point. 01:08:25.108 --> 01:08:29.208 And so often that's the case that you know, if I know there's a, there's 01:08:29.208 --> 01:08:33.648 a wonderful painting by Pontormo in Santa Felicità in Florence, and 01:08:33.648 --> 01:08:34.568 it's, and it's one of the weirdest. 01:08:36.228 --> 01:08:40.568 paintings in the 16th century in Italy and people either love it or hate it. 01:08:40.568 --> 01:08:47.888 It's the great marmite painting because it has really lurid colors and and we 01:08:47.888 --> 01:08:54.678 do I think I think Humans and society go through phases of favoring certain 01:08:54.938 --> 01:08:59.593 colors point and and actually funnily enough this Pontormo Really offended 01:08:59.633 --> 01:09:04.073 people because it's lilacs and it's light pinks and, and in the 80s, 01:09:04.133 --> 01:09:05.993 early 80s, nobody liked those colors. 01:09:06.643 --> 01:09:09.713 Everything was primary colors, and it was really interesting. 01:09:10.323 --> 01:09:18.603 Gladioli as a flower became the, you know, the sort of demonic plant. 01:09:18.663 --> 01:09:21.483 You know, there were things that people wouldn't put in their 01:09:21.483 --> 01:09:22.573 garden because of the color. 01:09:24.043 --> 01:09:25.113 Sorry, I'm off on one there. 01:09:25.143 --> 01:09:30.283 But, but, but the Pontomo's deposition usually puts people off. 01:09:30.973 --> 01:09:34.063 It's in a private chapel to a family called Capone. 01:09:34.063 --> 01:09:36.033 And so it's behind a grill. 01:09:36.323 --> 01:09:41.393 And just every so often the sacristan is there and, and they'll let you 01:09:42.233 --> 01:09:43.873 go in and they'll unlock it for you. 01:09:43.933 --> 01:09:48.263 And it's great because then you can kneel down in front of the altar. 01:09:48.353 --> 01:09:52.743 And at that point the painting suddenly makes sense, the composition 01:09:52.743 --> 01:09:53.673 of it and all of the rest. 01:09:54.133 --> 01:09:58.903 And it's essentially about the absolute tragedy of somebody 01:09:58.923 --> 01:10:05.593 so young and so marvelous as Christ dying and being killed. 01:10:06.323 --> 01:10:13.418 And they're literally being put on your head and you're you know, given to 01:10:13.418 --> 01:10:18.528 you the way the painting is composed, and it's all in the colors as well. 01:10:19.008 --> 01:10:25.038 And, and what you're doing is you're kneeling on the plate that is lifted to 01:10:25.038 --> 01:10:30.038 get to the crypt underneath the chapel where all of your ancestors are buried. 01:10:31.063 --> 01:10:37.973 So Christ in his death is being passed to you and you're thinking this is 01:10:38.163 --> 01:10:46.813 awful How much did he suffer to make a fundamental point about love to all of 01:10:46.833 --> 01:10:53.148 the rest of us and and And I'm remembering his death, and I'm thinking about the 01:10:53.148 --> 01:10:56.008 death of my dearly beloved on this spot. 01:10:56.228 --> 01:11:00.808 So the moment you get into that place, everything makes sense. 01:11:00.948 --> 01:11:11.338 And it's a, it's, it's a spiritual, emotional, visual, auditory the sense 01:11:11.368 --> 01:11:16.468 that you smell the, you know, you can hear, you can, you can smell the whiff 01:11:16.468 --> 01:11:21.753 of, incense from the morning's mass, all of those things come together. 01:11:22.293 --> 01:11:24.233 And you say liberating. 01:11:24.243 --> 01:11:30.563 Well, if what it's doing is just it is an explosion of realization, 01:11:30.613 --> 01:11:37.873 emotion and sensory invasion, which is just overwhelming. 01:11:38.653 --> 01:11:40.583 It's, it's, it's absolutely wonderful. 01:11:42.163 --> 01:11:48.508 And so that's why Information with, with things, you know, that after 01:11:48.508 --> 01:11:51.518 all of that, once, once people said, Oh my God, now I get it. 01:11:51.578 --> 01:11:52.938 I really understand this. 01:11:53.428 --> 01:11:57.518 Then you can say, Oh, and by the way, it was, you know, 1525 and people 01:11:57.518 --> 01:12:01.498 call this Manor Est and, and there's things that are wrong with that term. 01:12:01.498 --> 01:12:06.548 So you can then talk about language and how we academically or, or, or 01:12:07.098 --> 01:12:10.378 culturally have organized things and the rights and wrongs of that. 01:12:11.418 --> 01:12:14.878 But the main thing is to get across the emotional, the 01:12:14.878 --> 01:12:16.238 emotional aspects of it first. 01:12:16.683 --> 01:12:19.523 And you, and there are loads of places that you can really do that. 01:12:20.263 --> 01:12:24.123 Of course, museums and galleries are, are a problem because it's 01:12:24.123 --> 01:12:26.203 one thing after the next on a wall. 01:12:26.273 --> 01:12:31.703 And, and it's, and you end up having to describe where it was in order to 01:12:31.983 --> 01:12:37.383 try and get, to summon the muse in order to get people to that place. 01:12:38.403 --> 01:12:41.273 But the great advantage of things, seeing things on site. 01:12:41.708 --> 01:12:45.458 Is that you don't have to summon that muse, which depends on one's 01:12:45.458 --> 01:12:51.368 ability to describe it's there and it's evident and it's real. 01:12:52.748 --> 01:12:54.208 Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting you talk about quest. 01:12:56.038 --> 01:13:01.668 And it seems that, you know, we know that the hero's journey, the 01:13:01.678 --> 01:13:04.498 universal story is always quest. 01:13:05.138 --> 01:13:07.148 And we know that we are the speaking ape. 01:13:08.138 --> 01:13:11.268 They say we're the thinking ape, Homo sapiens sapiens, but everything 01:13:11.268 --> 01:13:14.068 with the brain thinks, but we're the only ones with the larynx. 01:13:15.133 --> 01:13:19.613 We speak, we create poetry, we have language in that way. 01:13:20.353 --> 01:13:26.923 And healing and story, you know, the shamanic healing process, you 01:13:26.923 --> 01:13:28.833 go to the shaman with your story. 01:13:30.243 --> 01:13:34.133 They go into the spirit world, get a series of instructions, 01:13:34.133 --> 01:13:35.243 it's effectively a story. 01:13:35.513 --> 01:13:38.193 Come back, give you a story, and then a new story is created. 01:13:38.373 --> 01:13:39.683 But it's the same when you go to the doctor. 01:13:40.093 --> 01:13:40.993 He's always my leg. 01:13:41.073 --> 01:13:41.843 It's a story. 01:13:42.123 --> 01:13:44.083 The doctor delves into their knowledge. 01:13:44.363 --> 01:13:46.753 Oh, leg stuff comes out with another story. 01:13:46.753 --> 01:13:48.113 Creates a new story for your leg. 01:13:48.873 --> 01:13:52.223 Hunting and gathering is who we are. 01:13:52.313 --> 01:13:55.353 And story is a way of organizing that. 01:13:56.623 --> 01:14:02.503 And it seems that really hearing you speak, you're, this is 01:14:02.503 --> 01:14:03.753 the again, back to paradox. 01:14:04.143 --> 01:14:10.338 You think something as heavily cultural as art and architecture would be so far 01:14:10.338 --> 01:14:16.908 removed from hunting and gathering that it would be artificial in the brain and 01:14:16.908 --> 01:14:22.808 an artificial experience and therefore of limited use to Say our neuroscience, 01:14:22.948 --> 01:14:28.498 which would develop through our hunter gatherer ancestry, but hearing you speak 01:14:28.598 --> 01:14:36.158 about that aspect of quest and then the sensual experience, not just the smell 01:14:36.158 --> 01:14:39.438 of the incense and the kneeling and the looking up at the thing, but also, as you 01:14:39.448 --> 01:14:44.718 say, to get there, you had to get there, you have to hunt, you have to arrive, you 01:14:44.718 --> 01:14:48.638 have to take a journey, which is a story, it just in order to get to that place. 01:14:49.608 --> 01:14:51.668 And then, of course, you've got to do it in, you're doing it in a group. 01:14:52.533 --> 01:14:55.473 As you would when you hunt or gather, and now you're hunting and gathering 01:14:56.393 --> 01:15:02.443 experience and information together and sharing this, what from a neuroscience 01:15:02.443 --> 01:15:06.533 point of view immediately springs into my mind there is Oh, axons and dendrites. 01:15:07.383 --> 01:15:15.133 So, the axons being the main stems and branches of the brain cells that are 01:15:15.133 --> 01:15:19.323 reaching out to try and make synaptic connections with other brain cells that 01:15:19.323 --> 01:15:21.083 we do this all the time until we die. 01:15:21.463 --> 01:15:25.373 Otherwise our brains atrophy and then the dendrites being the twigs that. 01:15:25.848 --> 01:15:29.038 Or like the root system that then makes contact with the other root systems 01:15:29.038 --> 01:15:36.978 and then myelination the fusing of those neural pathways happens that this 01:15:36.978 --> 01:15:38.288 seems to be how our brains are wired. 01:15:38.318 --> 01:15:41.498 And then you talked about question and people bursting into tears. 01:15:42.828 --> 01:15:44.418 Then I'm thinking, Oh, that's dopamine. 01:15:45.098 --> 01:15:48.948 And that's the endorphins kicking in of having made the physical 01:15:48.948 --> 01:15:50.818 journey to get there of the exercise. 01:15:50.858 --> 01:15:54.538 And then the serotonin of the group connection. 01:15:54.923 --> 01:16:00.243 And the shared experience and the oxytocin of the feeling 01:16:00.303 --> 01:16:02.413 of emotional shared support. 01:16:02.693 --> 01:16:05.223 All of those happy hormones, those are the four happy ones coming 01:16:05.223 --> 01:16:06.293 together in that one moment. 01:16:07.403 --> 01:16:12.113 What could in a strange way be more natural for the brain, but 01:16:13.513 --> 01:16:15.198 one wouldn't necessarily know that. 01:16:15.718 --> 01:16:20.008 When one looks at the words art history together one thing I have 01:16:20.008 --> 01:16:21.258 a real, I have a question for you. 01:16:21.748 --> 01:16:27.348 When we were young, 5, 000 years ago, when mastodon still bellowed to 01:16:27.368 --> 01:16:29.178 mastodon across the primeval swamp. 01:16:29.888 --> 01:16:34.098 You and I were coming out of you, Nick and me were coming out of a 01:16:34.098 --> 01:16:35.398 world that was pre cell phones. 01:16:36.128 --> 01:16:38.378 And to some degree, pre computers. 01:16:39.368 --> 01:16:40.948 When we were at university, we didn't use them. 01:16:41.008 --> 01:16:43.958 We wrote everything longhand and we and. 01:16:44.428 --> 01:16:49.808 The people that were on say gap years going around and having these experiences 01:16:49.808 --> 01:16:54.878 that you're talking about traveling and exploring were coming with brains 01:16:54.988 --> 01:16:58.098 that were more naturally prepared. 01:16:59.188 --> 01:17:00.878 This seems to me to have changed. 01:17:02.668 --> 01:17:08.238 Have you noticed a difference in the type of brain that's coming 01:17:08.238 --> 01:17:10.508 in front of you on these trips? 01:17:10.818 --> 01:17:18.508 And if so, how are those brains impacted by the experiences that? 01:17:19.143 --> 01:17:21.483 your courses provide? 01:17:24.963 --> 01:17:25.363 Nick Ross: Okay. 01:17:25.373 --> 01:17:27.063 So, so how, how did they arrive? 01:17:27.173 --> 01:17:28.043 I, I 01:17:28.093 --> 01:17:28.383 okay. 01:17:28.603 --> 01:17:32.493 So on the, on the one, on the one hand, it's, it's very easy to take a pop at 01:17:32.493 --> 01:17:34.783 the internet and, and the digital age. 01:17:35.163 --> 01:17:41.473 And, and I'm, I'm, I'm guilty of probably thinking like as many, many 01:17:41.473 --> 01:17:45.683 people in older people might, which is that, you know, the, the, the last 01:17:45.693 --> 01:17:48.953 generation the upcoming generation, they're, you know, they're, they're 01:17:48.953 --> 01:17:55.078 somehow different and something is lost from the experience before. 01:17:56.108 --> 01:18:00.848 And on the one hand, I think that it is marvelous that you can find information 01:18:00.848 --> 01:18:06.298 really quickly, you know, all of those that, you know, that capacity to have 01:18:06.298 --> 01:18:11.558 an idea to have a question a query, and then find an answer almost immediately. 01:18:12.298 --> 01:18:13.238 Is is brilliant. 01:18:13.298 --> 01:18:16.408 It's and that is a really good building block. 01:18:16.408 --> 01:18:18.918 You know, that's that's that's really exciting. 01:18:20.078 --> 01:18:23.868 Or, you know how to do something, you know, you know, you 01:18:23.868 --> 01:18:25.768 introduce a student to an idea. 01:18:26.578 --> 01:18:28.358 Or a book and they can go off and find it. 01:18:28.388 --> 01:18:31.678 They can go off and find that film that you think, oh, that's really relevant. 01:18:31.688 --> 01:18:32.828 You'll really enjoy this. 01:18:33.118 --> 01:18:34.988 And you don't have to wait two months to go and see it. 01:18:34.988 --> 01:18:35.578 It's there. 01:18:35.598 --> 01:18:36.908 You can watch it this evening. 01:18:37.348 --> 01:18:40.388 So all of those sorts of things are really big and positive and good. 01:18:41.388 --> 01:18:48.158 The only, the only thing that I find Is the sort of impatience that, that 01:18:48.338 --> 01:18:52.728 because you can get things very, very quickly, you assume everything 01:18:52.738 --> 01:18:54.828 will arrive very, very quickly. 01:18:54.858 --> 01:19:00.258 And I find myself becoming unbelievably impatient and and therefore sort 01:19:00.258 --> 01:19:01.948 of rather irritated with myself. 01:19:02.648 --> 01:19:07.378 And, and I think the I think the, and also the collective experience. 01:19:07.743 --> 01:19:13.883 You sort of touched on that a moment ago, of, of traveling and, and being together 01:19:13.923 --> 01:19:18.623 and sort of, I do remember actually once our good friend Tom caught me doing 01:19:18.623 --> 01:19:23.243 this in Verona once, I deliberately made ourselves late for a train because I 01:19:23.243 --> 01:19:27.973 felt that the course, the group, weren't working very well as a, as a whole. 01:19:28.073 --> 01:19:28.473 That's interesting. 01:19:28.483 --> 01:19:31.413 And and And we were in Verona. 01:19:31.423 --> 01:19:35.343 We didn't have bags with us, so it was just a day trip, but, but I suddenly said, 01:19:35.343 --> 01:19:38.893 oh my God, we've got seven minutes to be on a train, and we've got three quarters 01:19:39.193 --> 01:19:41.293 of a kilometer to run to get to the train. 01:19:41.873 --> 01:19:45.853 And and we, we all got there, everybody helping each other, you know, and it 01:19:45.853 --> 01:19:49.113 was you know, pulling each other on the train as the train then pulled out and 01:19:49.113 --> 01:19:53.343 stuff, and then we all collapsed in the carriage hot, sweaty, and exhausted. 01:19:53.743 --> 01:19:53.993 But... 01:19:54.708 --> 01:19:57.228 All of a sudden, a group of people, and Tom, I remember him 01:19:57.228 --> 01:19:59.628 looking at me and saying, you, you, that was deliberate, wasn't it? 01:20:00.068 --> 01:20:04.728 And, and I, I, you know, to this day, I'm not sure if it was just me being 01:20:05.338 --> 01:20:08.548 half witted, or, or whether there was a little bit of me that wanted 01:20:08.548 --> 01:20:12.698 to create that sense of, of for all. 01:20:12.908 --> 01:20:16.498 Okay, so, so the, the, the business of collectively doing 01:20:16.508 --> 01:20:17.928 things together is, has gone. 01:20:18.158 --> 01:20:22.778 I think it's interesting that, that personal sports have really taken off. 01:20:24.213 --> 01:20:27.073 In the sense that, you know, when I was younger, it was all 01:20:27.103 --> 01:20:29.353 team sports, everything was about being in part of a team. 01:20:29.353 --> 01:20:33.913 And now it's about actually a lot of sports, and the most popular 01:20:34.273 --> 01:20:37.503 and taken up sports, I think in Britain at the moment is jiu jitsu. 01:20:39.173 --> 01:20:43.513 And more people are taking up that than than than other team sports. 01:20:44.663 --> 01:20:48.463 because they're all individuals as opposed to groups of people taking up sport. 01:20:48.533 --> 01:20:53.573 Anyway, again, I, I slightly digress, but, but if I'm looking for differences 01:20:53.993 --> 01:20:58.936 and therefore things that, the, the very nature of AHA and traveling 01:21:00.346 --> 01:21:03.306 and having quite a lot of autonomy. 01:21:03.316 --> 01:21:07.206 So I'm really keen that when we set up a course, we can do all sorts of things. 01:21:08.266 --> 01:21:13.206 To make it wonderful and lay out a program of great events and things like that. 01:21:14.966 --> 01:21:19.676 But I'm really, really it's very important to me that the tutors can, can wake up 01:21:19.676 --> 01:21:20.826 one morning and say, do you know what? 01:21:20.826 --> 01:21:22.716 It's an absolutely fantastic day out there. 01:21:22.726 --> 01:21:23.796 I think we should do this. 01:21:24.166 --> 01:21:25.846 Or, you know, we can go and do that. 01:21:25.856 --> 01:21:27.266 Or why don't we go and watch football? 01:21:27.266 --> 01:21:31.006 Or that there's all sorts of things that, that, that make the trip. 01:21:31.811 --> 01:21:37.671 Both an adventure for them, but crucially that the tour, the course 01:21:37.731 --> 01:21:42.811 is an individual course, an individual adventure for those students. 01:21:42.891 --> 01:21:44.541 And it's not the same as the last one. 01:21:44.541 --> 01:21:45.711 It's their course. 01:21:45.731 --> 01:21:47.021 It was their history. 01:21:47.791 --> 01:21:51.201 And it was their experience, not a a usual one. 01:21:52.951 --> 01:21:53.561 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, go ahead. 01:21:53.791 --> 01:21:55.881 I've got a question that will follow, but go ahead. 01:21:56.441 --> 01:21:59.271 Nick Ross: And then, and then, then in terms of, of. 01:22:01.391 --> 01:22:08.131 I often talk to students at the beginning of the course about the 01:22:08.861 --> 01:22:10.651 senses and using up the senses. 01:22:12.511 --> 01:22:16.221 I know just a moment ago I was talking about the Pontormo deposition 01:22:16.221 --> 01:22:19.091 and I possibly sounded like somebody who either understands 01:22:19.091 --> 01:22:22.461 or believes in the resurrection. 01:22:23.696 --> 01:22:28.746 I don't, I don't really, there's lots of things that I like and approve 01:22:28.746 --> 01:22:32.216 of, but, but I don't quite get the resurrection but I suppose that's 01:22:32.216 --> 01:22:40.416 life's great passage, but, but what I am keen on in a spiritual sense, if 01:22:40.416 --> 01:22:44.136 I've got a spiritual center, it's that I really want to use up the things that 01:22:44.136 --> 01:22:47.206 I was given, and those are my senses. 01:22:48.026 --> 01:22:52.406 When I, I don't know to what extent being paralyzed when I was a teenager 01:22:53.146 --> 01:22:58.686 from the neck down had any, any, any input on this, but I am absolutely 01:22:58.686 --> 01:23:00.646 determined to use up all my senses. 01:23:01.076 --> 01:23:05.316 And I've been lucky enough to do what I've done, whereby my visual, 01:23:05.406 --> 01:23:08.106 visual acuity is really pretty acute. 01:23:08.426 --> 01:23:12.356 And, and I noticed things, I see things, I, I've got a great. 01:23:13.086 --> 01:23:17.396 maturity in my sight, if you like, of recognition and things. 01:23:18.546 --> 01:23:20.266 I'm a bit pissed off about my hearing. 01:23:20.266 --> 01:23:24.846 I, you know, I can hear all right, but I, I haven't explored sound enough. 01:23:25.596 --> 01:23:27.046 And I really want to explore sound. 01:23:27.546 --> 01:23:29.206 I was quite worried about my nose. 01:23:29.436 --> 01:23:29.936 a while ago. 01:23:29.936 --> 01:23:30.606 I used to smoke. 01:23:30.656 --> 01:23:31.206 I loved smoking. 01:23:31.286 --> 01:23:32.046 God, I love smoking. 01:23:32.216 --> 01:23:33.716 But, but I stopped smoking. 01:23:34.186 --> 01:23:37.376 And and so I started to scent and smell much better. 01:23:38.016 --> 01:23:39.876 Not me personally, but the act of smelling. 01:23:41.626 --> 01:23:46.836 So, so I, I actually spent some time going to perfumiers 01:23:47.026 --> 01:23:48.536 and asking, how do you smell? 01:23:48.556 --> 01:23:49.216 What do you do? 01:23:49.236 --> 01:23:50.236 How do you register? 01:23:50.276 --> 01:23:51.946 What actually happens in the nose? 01:23:52.586 --> 01:23:55.306 And now I'm, I'm I'm a real sniff stop snob. 01:23:55.386 --> 01:23:59.976 I go, you know, I can spot a synthetic smell really easily. 01:24:00.016 --> 01:24:02.586 I'm really aware of what I'm walking past. 01:24:03.426 --> 01:24:06.456 Touch, feeling, I lost all of that, but, but what I've got, 01:24:06.456 --> 01:24:08.086 I've really enjoyed exercising. 01:24:08.476 --> 01:24:13.476 Taste, I've loved food all the way along, but what I want to do is get 01:24:13.476 --> 01:24:17.186 to my deathbed and I'll be pissed off if I get run over by a bus and I 01:24:17.186 --> 01:24:21.736 haven't finished using up all of my senses, because that is, to be honest, 01:24:21.736 --> 01:24:23.176 the only way I can say thank you. 01:24:24.006 --> 01:24:25.226 If I've truly. 01:24:25.531 --> 01:24:27.731 wholly used myself up. 01:24:28.831 --> 01:24:30.981 I've loved as much as I possibly can. 01:24:31.301 --> 01:24:33.671 I've appreciated all of those things. 01:24:33.671 --> 01:24:37.291 I've appreciated what my, my connection to the rest of the world, if I can 01:24:37.291 --> 01:24:42.111 do all of that completely at that point, rather like a finished plate at 01:24:42.111 --> 01:24:44.511 supper, I can say, you know, thank you. 01:24:45.201 --> 01:24:46.251 That's, that's it. 01:24:46.321 --> 01:24:51.401 And I'm out, but I've really enjoyed it and I've made the absolute most of it. 01:24:52.041 --> 01:24:54.271 Because I've been lucky enough to be able to do that. 01:24:54.711 --> 01:24:58.991 And so I have, I, I tend to use Biros, pens, pencils, I 01:24:58.991 --> 01:25:00.631 tend to use them up completely. 01:25:01.191 --> 01:25:05.321 I'm really irritated if I lose a pen, which is only half finished. 01:25:05.671 --> 01:25:09.971 My pencils, I've got two or three, I've, I've I gave one to Cosmo the other day. 01:25:10.221 --> 01:25:14.311 My pencils become unbelievably small until I can't use them anymore, and then I 01:25:14.631 --> 01:25:18.541 actually tend to keep them because they're memories, and it's slightly pathetic. 01:25:18.541 --> 01:25:21.891 But anyway, the, the, the point is to use oneself up. 01:25:23.031 --> 01:25:34.941 And if I can, if we can, as a, as a group, impart that sense of, of, of appreciation, 01:25:34.941 --> 01:25:40.191 understanding, use of the senses to our students, not only is it liberating 01:25:40.671 --> 01:25:45.391 in a way that I was kind of describing earlier on with the Pontormo, but it's 01:25:45.411 --> 01:25:47.321 kind of an antidote to the digital world. 01:25:47.896 --> 01:25:50.416 Or it's a supplement to the digital world. 01:25:50.446 --> 01:25:54.316 You know, there is no way that people should and could live going 01:25:54.316 --> 01:25:56.006 forward without the digital world. 01:25:56.006 --> 01:25:56.526 It's here. 01:25:57.296 --> 01:26:00.746 But what we've got to do is to kind of learn how to do both. 01:26:00.746 --> 01:26:05.646 And if, if it can be a journey in one's own development as well. 01:26:07.586 --> 01:26:13.506 And, and as a, to a point, trying to find some purpose in all of it, using oneself 01:26:13.506 --> 01:26:15.576 up isn't a bad one, as far as I can see. 01:26:16.386 --> 01:26:18.236 Rupert Isaacson: It seems to me that what you're talking about 01:26:18.346 --> 01:26:20.076 is teaching people how to live. 01:26:21.796 --> 01:26:28.746 Because to, to explore, to learn, for the love of learning, to encourage 01:26:28.746 --> 01:26:31.426 the love of learning that's one part. 01:26:33.046 --> 01:26:37.696 And so often, in our culture, we celebrate the intellectual. 01:26:39.216 --> 01:26:44.126 Or we celebrate the spiritual and because of the church and whatever 01:26:44.126 --> 01:26:49.836 that we inherited, that morality, we denigrate the senses, we denigrate 01:26:49.856 --> 01:26:53.126 the sensual, even though we spend our entire lives trying to gratify our 01:26:53.126 --> 01:26:55.476 senses, but we feel guilty about it. 01:26:55.476 --> 01:26:57.056 And we're told we should feel guilty about it. 01:26:57.106 --> 01:27:00.506 And it's this really interesting point that you're making about the senses 01:27:00.806 --> 01:27:05.116 that as someone who was deprived of your senses for a while in a way that 01:27:05.116 --> 01:27:09.806 I think few people have experienced to then really see their value. 01:27:09.856 --> 01:27:10.246 And then. 01:27:10.946 --> 01:27:14.306 That there is no separation, of course, how could there be, 01:27:14.646 --> 01:27:19.246 between your spirit and your mind, your intellect and your senses. 01:27:19.816 --> 01:27:27.336 And to make that separation perhaps also induces a type of dementia 01:27:28.276 --> 01:27:31.116 that's pre digital that some of our ancestors might have felt. 01:27:31.366 --> 01:27:32.526 So, just stay with me here. 01:27:32.696 --> 01:27:38.426 So, for example, I have a great friend who we did a A podcast with Jane Pike a while 01:27:38.426 --> 01:27:42.696 ago who works very much with the nervous system and she delved for years and 01:27:42.696 --> 01:27:48.456 years, like decades into deep, deep yoga and was a yogini to the point that she's 01:27:48.456 --> 01:27:52.276 been flown all over the world, giving courses and so on and studied in India. 01:27:52.276 --> 01:27:56.276 And she said the problem with it for her in the end was that there was 01:27:56.276 --> 01:28:01.016 too much in the philosophy of it that was about using this practice through 01:28:01.016 --> 01:28:04.236 the body to leave the body behind. 01:28:04.686 --> 01:28:10.426 And only go to the spiritual as if the body was something bad or wrong in 01:28:10.426 --> 01:28:14.136 just the same way that, you know, we've done that with Christianity and so on. 01:28:14.556 --> 01:28:16.856 But really, that's just seems to be a way of controlling people. 01:28:16.856 --> 01:28:19.936 And she said that it seemed at a certain point that what then happened 01:28:19.936 --> 01:28:21.456 was her body began to shut down. 01:28:22.191 --> 01:28:26.361 And she said a lot of people she knew had this experience that they took the yoga 01:28:26.361 --> 01:28:31.141 to an extreme where instead of serving the body, it began to work against it 01:28:31.161 --> 01:28:35.321 for interesting reasons that people could go back to that which surprised me, but 01:28:35.321 --> 01:28:37.161 she said, no, this actually does happen. 01:28:37.581 --> 01:28:40.531 You're talking about the senses that as being part of the 01:28:40.531 --> 01:28:42.421 whole and having been deprived. 01:28:42.961 --> 01:28:46.621 You know, we think about sensory deprivation, you know, if you go 01:28:46.621 --> 01:28:50.021 into a room where you can't see, or you deliberately put on a blindfold 01:28:50.371 --> 01:28:55.931 so that you're, you can hear better or, and people are now seeing the 01:28:55.941 --> 01:28:58.271 value of doing that sort of thing. 01:28:59.911 --> 01:29:01.281 I've noticed that on your. 01:29:01.751 --> 01:29:03.451 Courses, you're absolutely right. 01:29:03.461 --> 01:29:08.581 You expose people to taste, you expose people to smell, you expose people to the 01:29:08.591 --> 01:29:12.101 touch of the stone, you and not just the touch of the stone on your hand, but the 01:29:12.101 --> 01:29:16.151 touch of the stone on your knees or to lie in a position on the stone to look 01:29:16.151 --> 01:29:21.281 up at a certain painting or something that all of that is going to again, 01:29:21.281 --> 01:29:25.521 bring us back to the sort of hunter gatherer route of pure functionality 01:29:26.151 --> 01:29:27.331 within the human brain and body. 01:29:27.836 --> 01:29:32.506 Which is sort of our original blueprint, whether it's done by going to a place to 01:29:32.506 --> 01:29:35.346 look at a piece of art and architecture, whether it's by going through a forest 01:29:35.866 --> 01:29:40.836 to look at a deer the same process seems to happen in the brain and where 01:29:40.836 --> 01:29:42.536 I was asking about a digital dementia. 01:29:42.576 --> 01:29:44.836 That seems to be the catchphrase now. 01:29:46.176 --> 01:29:49.866 You're talking about the senses made me realize that perhaps 01:29:49.866 --> 01:29:54.076 there's been a dementia of trying to divorce people from the senses 01:29:54.336 --> 01:29:56.666 that's caused such unhappiness and. 01:29:57.831 --> 01:30:01.121 Suffering in people that it's made us do things like invent the Spanish 01:30:01.121 --> 01:30:03.791 Inquisition and you know, the Holocaust. 01:30:03.901 --> 01:30:09.491 A lot of that seems to come out of the suppression of passion and the 01:30:09.491 --> 01:30:13.621 suppression of the census to the point that people become so angry 01:30:13.621 --> 01:30:14.981 that you can then control that anger. 01:30:14.981 --> 01:30:17.621 And I'm going to make you go and commit these atrocities. 01:30:17.621 --> 01:30:20.221 You could argue that that's to some degree what's going on 01:30:20.351 --> 01:30:21.481 in Putin's Russia right now. 01:30:22.111 --> 01:30:24.641 But I hadn't thought about it like that until you made those points. 01:30:25.496 --> 01:30:31.166 So, when I asked you, have you noticed a digital dementia in the new generation 01:30:31.166 --> 01:30:36.136 coming, when you said, ah, well, maybe a bit, but there's all these other 01:30:36.136 --> 01:30:40.736 good things about the digital age, I hadn't, until you began to talk about 01:30:40.736 --> 01:30:44.306 the sensors, I hadn't put together that perhaps there was another dementia, 01:30:45.576 --> 01:30:50.846 which we've suffered from for a much longer period of time, pre digital. 01:30:51.771 --> 01:30:52.951 And so 01:30:56.061 --> 01:31:00.071 as you were talking to it made me think the word came up in my mind pilgrimage. 01:31:02.021 --> 01:31:03.101 Is that really what you're doing? 01:31:04.371 --> 01:31:06.631 Nick Ross: Yeah, I think it's really it's that's fascinating. 01:31:06.701 --> 01:31:12.971 Okay, so, so, Occasionally when, when people hear about what we do 01:31:12.971 --> 01:31:16.411 with teenagers, they, they say, ah, it sounds like a modern grand tour. 01:31:16.521 --> 01:31:22.551 You know, the 18th century idea of largely Englishmen and, and quite a 01:31:22.551 --> 01:31:26.531 lot of Frenchmen going off on, and Germans as well, and Goethe did it as, 01:31:26.541 --> 01:31:29.971 you know, you go off and you travel and, and quite often the quest was to 01:31:29.981 --> 01:31:33.271 Italy because of Rome and Roman empire. 01:31:33.271 --> 01:31:34.841 And, the church and so on. 01:31:36.591 --> 01:31:39.201 And and so, yes, that was one sort of pilgrimage. 01:31:39.541 --> 01:31:43.111 And, and interestingly, it's done at a stage where young 01:31:43.131 --> 01:31:45.401 people have become independent. 01:31:45.431 --> 01:31:48.571 They're physically and emotionally independent enough and sexually 01:31:48.591 --> 01:31:51.571 mature and all of those sorts of things to be able to go off. 01:31:52.446 --> 01:31:54.746 And, and and explore for themselves. 01:31:55.916 --> 01:31:59.146 The same happens with Aborigines, I, I think. 01:31:59.216 --> 01:32:04.096 I remember reading Bruce Chatwin's songlines and being very, very impressed 01:32:04.126 --> 01:32:10.036 by that as a, in my twenties, and thinking at the time that's, you know, what he's 01:32:10.036 --> 01:32:16.376 kind of describing is not unlike the modern gap year or, or, or pilgrimage. 01:32:16.771 --> 01:32:21.101 In the Middle Ages and, and it's about setting off on a journey and experiencing 01:32:21.101 --> 01:32:25.611 all sorts of things as you go along, and, and in a way, having an opportunity 01:32:25.611 --> 01:32:30.941 to, to try oneself out, because after all, until you're about 18, in the 01:32:30.941 --> 01:32:34.331 main, you're told what to do, what to eat, where to sleep, and all of those 01:32:34.331 --> 01:32:38.091 sorts of things, and all of a sudden, you can actually go and just work it 01:32:38.091 --> 01:32:42.601 out yourself, and, and and it's both an opportunity, but it's also a test of 01:32:42.611 --> 01:32:44.501 oneself, you know, can I actually do this? 01:32:45.321 --> 01:32:49.111 And I do remember feeling that very strongly when I was 18, leaving, 01:32:49.811 --> 01:32:54.191 leaving home and going to live in London, I was determined not to use 01:32:54.191 --> 01:32:56.971 connections or any other friends. 01:32:56.981 --> 01:33:00.201 So, you know, to find my own flat, to find my own job, to find my own. 01:33:01.096 --> 01:33:06.436 stuff just to find out whether actually as a person, I could work. 01:33:06.686 --> 01:33:10.866 I do work, you know, not just work in a functional sense, but operate 01:33:11.416 --> 01:33:12.626 socially and all of the rest. 01:33:13.486 --> 01:33:18.746 And so, yeah, it's a pilgrimage that I, I think is part of the same thing, you 01:33:18.746 --> 01:33:24.486 know, gap years, walkabout, Spartans going off and testing themselves, you 01:33:24.486 --> 01:33:26.356 know, young, young boys and all of that. 01:33:27.016 --> 01:33:31.016 I think it's part of the same thing, and yeah, and it's a, it's a pretty important 01:33:31.086 --> 01:33:34.126 part of development for one and all. 01:33:34.726 --> 01:33:35.806 Rupert Isaacson: The rite of passage. 01:33:36.716 --> 01:33:38.406 Nick Ross: Yeah, yes. 01:33:38.976 --> 01:33:40.876 I suppose rite of passage comes with... 01:33:41.616 --> 01:33:46.006 with some tremendous challenge, you know, the, you know, the, you 01:33:46.006 --> 01:33:50.086 know, mortal challenge that, that you overcome some mortal difficulty. 01:33:50.626 --> 01:33:55.176 I don't think one needs to overcome a mortal difficulty. 01:33:55.176 --> 01:34:03.691 I do see it as a more sort of positive thing of learning to appreciate yourself 01:34:03.781 --> 01:34:08.451 and your senses, you know, there's the whole thing of love oneself. 01:34:08.631 --> 01:34:14.351 I've never completely fallen for that idea, but, but learning to 01:34:14.351 --> 01:34:20.891 use what you've got in an external way is, is is a really good thing. 01:34:20.891 --> 01:34:22.801 And that's, and that's a very good connector to other 01:34:22.801 --> 01:34:23.971 people and so on and so forth. 01:34:23.981 --> 01:34:29.161 So, so the idea of mortal challenge, I personally would leave to one side. 01:34:29.621 --> 01:34:39.031 But, but setting out to try oneself out socially and physically and sensually 01:34:39.431 --> 01:34:47.991 is, is a really good antidote to formal education and, and particularly as 01:34:47.991 --> 01:34:54.451 one sets out into, into a world or university where you hopefully will 01:34:54.451 --> 01:34:56.321 be invited to think for yourself. 01:34:57.636 --> 01:34:59.326 and create for yourself. 01:34:59.706 --> 01:35:04.366 And I think that's possibly what makes successful people within 01:35:04.456 --> 01:35:10.626 within the workplace or for the, if they, if they don't want to work 01:35:10.626 --> 01:35:16.396 for anybody else, certainly to have the creative confidence to have a, 01:35:16.606 --> 01:35:18.046 to have a go and do your own thing. 01:35:18.166 --> 01:35:18.916 One's own thing. 01:35:20.966 --> 01:35:22.116 Rupert Isaacson: Do one's own thing. 01:35:22.326 --> 01:35:23.966 I mean, that's live free, ride free. 01:35:25.606 --> 01:35:26.286 Where do you want? 01:35:27.306 --> 01:35:27.696 AHA to go. 01:35:27.736 --> 01:35:28.596 What's next for you? 01:35:31.806 --> 01:35:32.506 Nick Ross: What's next? 01:35:32.706 --> 01:35:38.486 It, it was, you know, Art History Abroad as a, as a title, you know, the one thing 01:35:38.486 --> 01:35:42.036 is that I quite enjoy is that what you start off with as a plan quite often 01:35:42.076 --> 01:35:44.396 doesn't end up being the way it goes. 01:35:44.396 --> 01:35:48.926 And, and the more fun thing is just to kind of let it go where people 01:35:49.536 --> 01:35:51.886 and, and, and circumstances lead. 01:35:52.606 --> 01:35:56.846 And, and like all, like any organisation, it's so much a part of. 01:35:57.476 --> 01:36:00.946 the people who were there with you and those you meet along 01:36:00.946 --> 01:36:02.916 the way, and changing ideas. 01:36:03.036 --> 01:36:07.886 And so, so Art History Abroad, it was quite specifically not identified 01:36:07.936 --> 01:36:14.136 either to me or to Italy and And so, it can go anywhere, and I would 01:36:14.136 --> 01:36:16.506 quite like it to go everywhere. 01:36:17.046 --> 01:36:22.776 I would quite like to see it not only in Europe, but also in India, 01:36:23.306 --> 01:36:26.126 Japan and, and in South America. 01:36:26.746 --> 01:36:28.716 In fact, anywhere, anywhere. 01:36:29.066 --> 01:36:32.896 You know, I think, I think it's applicable elsewhere. 01:36:34.006 --> 01:36:38.486 So that's one thing, geographic and, and an intellectual spread. 01:36:39.016 --> 01:36:42.966 Art also, I think, as a term, you know, what is art? 01:36:42.996 --> 01:36:44.716 That's always been in the background. 01:36:45.426 --> 01:36:49.796 I think, I think art itself is a, is a floppy term and I quite 01:36:49.796 --> 01:36:52.416 enjoy it for being loose like that. 01:36:53.526 --> 01:36:57.526 I'd also quite like to change the parameters or encourage the parameters 01:36:57.526 --> 01:37:00.716 of what we do and what we think about and the way we approach things. 01:37:01.476 --> 01:37:08.016 I know, I remember, It's probably about 10 12 years ago, you and I talking about 01:37:08.026 --> 01:37:17.646 the nature of, of, of what we talked together in Florence, and, and that 01:37:17.786 --> 01:37:24.266 it's, it's, it's, it's all kinetic and auditory and aural all at the same time. 01:37:24.946 --> 01:37:31.196 Now, what we were fumbling with then, is what you've now developed 01:37:31.196 --> 01:37:39.951 into a much more articulate description of axons and dendrites. 01:37:40.011 --> 01:37:40.971 Dendrites, yeah. 01:37:41.101 --> 01:37:41.621 Dendrites. 01:37:42.541 --> 01:37:49.221 And, and I'm interested in developing that because that, that chimes with my 01:37:50.721 --> 01:37:53.541 belief structure about using oneself up. 01:37:54.581 --> 01:37:55.731 It chimes with. 01:37:57.571 --> 01:38:03.071 the idea of, of the nature of education being about liberation 01:38:03.321 --> 01:38:04.661 as opposed to structure. 01:38:05.316 --> 01:38:06.466 And stricture. 01:38:07.126 --> 01:38:09.916 So, so that is a development. 01:38:10.196 --> 01:38:12.366 I think would be really interesting. 01:38:12.366 --> 01:38:18.256 So both geographic, but also because I don't know about you, but I find teaching 01:38:18.256 --> 01:38:20.726 and enormously emotional experience. 01:38:21.646 --> 01:38:26.196 And and for that reason, actually, I very, very rarely ever go and watch. 01:38:26.781 --> 01:38:31.331 Any of our tutors simply because, you know, I know standard practice is go 01:38:31.331 --> 01:38:34.461 and review people and check that they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. 01:38:35.411 --> 01:38:37.501 In my view, I don't need to do that. 01:38:37.661 --> 01:38:38.601 I don't want to do that. 01:38:38.601 --> 01:38:41.551 The way I prefer to do it is to teach the same students maybe 01:38:41.551 --> 01:38:44.511 the next day so I can look at. 01:38:45.206 --> 01:38:50.046 their development or I can look at the, the the teaching capacity of 01:38:50.076 --> 01:38:55.486 the tutor I'm interested in by their reflection, by looking at them directly. 01:38:56.056 --> 01:38:58.816 After all, the only important thing is what ends up in the student. 01:39:00.131 --> 01:39:02.681 So look at the student, don't look at the person who's doing the teaching. 01:39:03.011 --> 01:39:06.001 Apart from anything else, it's embarrassing watching people teach, 01:39:06.061 --> 01:39:09.951 or I, you know, I know that I slightly become somebody else when 01:39:09.951 --> 01:39:14.171 I'm teaching, and when I'm off on one, I am altogether some somebody else. 01:39:16.081 --> 01:39:21.146 And, and so I'd rather not pry on anybody's personality in 01:39:21.146 --> 01:39:23.726 that way, I'd rather just let them be what they want to be. 01:39:25.326 --> 01:39:31.666 So the, the, the, the, the experience of teaching I think is hugely emotional. 01:39:31.666 --> 01:39:35.116 I think, you know, obviously it's different if you're in a classroom. 01:39:35.546 --> 01:39:37.876 And I think I, I am lost in admiration for. 01:39:38.516 --> 01:39:41.646 people who are teaching within schools, where there are people who 01:39:41.646 --> 01:39:46.056 don't want necessarily to be there, they're tied to a desk or they're in 01:39:46.056 --> 01:39:50.306 an environment that's unsympathetic or whatever, that is hugely difficult. 01:39:50.356 --> 01:39:55.476 And, and before somebody can actually deliver meaningful 01:39:56.006 --> 01:39:57.646 knowledge and inspiration. 01:39:57.656 --> 01:39:59.686 They've got to get over all of these hurdles. 01:40:00.486 --> 01:40:05.596 I'm in an amazingly, and with my tutors and the people who work for AHA, 01:40:05.856 --> 01:40:10.996 amazingly privileged position to be able to walk out of the door and walk 01:40:10.996 --> 01:40:12.686 somewhere else and say, Hey, look at this. 01:40:12.746 --> 01:40:13.446 This is wonderful. 01:40:14.096 --> 01:40:17.196 And it's privileged in economically and, and physically. 01:40:18.901 --> 01:40:27.621 And so, so I, you know, my, my, I, I frame my view within that, you 01:40:27.621 --> 01:40:29.141 know, teaching is a very big word. 01:40:29.341 --> 01:40:32.111 It refers to a lot of people in a lot of different circumstances. 01:40:32.861 --> 01:40:39.291 But the bit that we're able to do is, is hugely emotional, liberating for both the 01:40:39.291 --> 01:40:42.131 person teaching and, and the recipient. 01:40:42.976 --> 01:40:46.476 And I think I've already forgotten the actual question that you asked me. 01:40:46.476 --> 01:40:46.966 Well, 01:40:46.996 --> 01:40:49.646 Rupert Isaacson: you, you actually just answered it, emotional liberation. 01:40:49.836 --> 01:40:54.156 I mean, and, and emotional liberation, because, you know, 01:40:54.186 --> 01:40:56.736 the intellect serves the emotions, the emotion serves the intellect. 01:40:57.366 --> 01:41:00.406 To take that to as wide a context as possible, it's funny you use 01:41:00.406 --> 01:41:03.996 the word abroad, because you know the word abroad semantically simply 01:41:03.996 --> 01:41:08.186 means out and about, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean overseas. 01:41:08.706 --> 01:41:13.746 And just so listeners know not everything that AHA does is overseas, 01:41:13.746 --> 01:41:15.776 a lot of what you do is also local. 01:41:16.316 --> 01:41:19.236 To go abroad can mean to walk around one's village. 01:41:19.676 --> 01:41:23.486 One is abroad, you know, the other word I love is the old Norman 01:41:23.546 --> 01:41:25.126 hunting expression of enlarged. 01:41:25.316 --> 01:41:30.446 The stag is enlarged, you know, he's got out, he's left the ticket is 01:41:30.446 --> 01:41:34.026 all it means, but it's, it's, he's broken cover, but it's interesting 01:41:34.026 --> 01:41:35.836 how words take on certain meanings. 01:41:35.846 --> 01:41:40.096 And one of the things I've, some of the best experiences I've had with you 01:41:40.096 --> 01:41:42.656 as a teacher, I think have been when you've shown me something really local. 01:41:43.071 --> 01:41:46.831 The other day we were, I was lucky enough to be in for the listeners 01:41:46.831 --> 01:41:48.431 in, in Nick's Village with my kids. 01:41:48.821 --> 01:41:53.501 And there happens to be a very, very beautiful piece of medieval architecture 01:41:53.501 --> 01:41:56.101 in there, which isn't the church. 01:41:56.111 --> 01:42:00.051 It's the thing next to the church, which is this half timbered building. 01:42:01.241 --> 01:42:03.701 Okay, one sees a lot of half timbered buildings, they're always charming, 01:42:03.701 --> 01:42:05.111 they always have a nice aesthetic. 01:42:05.391 --> 01:42:09.831 But this particular one had a set of carvings in the In the 01:42:09.831 --> 01:42:13.421 half timbers of a detail that I've never seen before anywhere. 01:42:13.461 --> 01:42:17.321 And I live in a part of Germany that's famous for half timbered villages. 01:42:17.561 --> 01:42:18.961 And I didn't see anything like it. 01:42:19.401 --> 01:42:21.341 And that was 2 minutes away. 01:42:21.701 --> 01:42:25.801 It, that feeling what I'd love to do is. 01:42:26.646 --> 01:42:31.246 encourage people always to look for what's close as well as 01:42:31.246 --> 01:42:33.966 what's far when one is questing. 01:42:34.786 --> 01:42:38.056 You also mentioned something else which I'd like to come back to, but 01:42:38.056 --> 01:42:39.346 I want to do this on another podcast. 01:42:39.556 --> 01:42:40.326 I want to have you back. 01:42:40.336 --> 01:42:41.116 Would you come back? 01:42:42.481 --> 01:42:47.341 I've got some questions you mentioned resurrection, you mentioned self 01:42:47.341 --> 01:42:51.241 love, and you mentioned pilgrimage. 01:42:51.941 --> 01:42:53.681 Pilgrimage got a bit of a thumbs up from you. 01:42:54.651 --> 01:42:57.901 Resurrection and self love got question marks from you. 01:42:59.271 --> 01:43:00.541 I'd like to... 01:43:01.891 --> 01:43:06.111 explore those three concepts self love, resurrection, redemption, 01:43:06.271 --> 01:43:14.491 resurrection, and pilgrimage in a wider context looking at it from the 01:43:14.491 --> 01:43:17.391 brain point of view, as well as from the physical point of view, would you 01:43:17.391 --> 01:43:19.891 be willing to come on and do that? 01:43:22.041 --> 01:43:22.891 Yeah, okay. 01:43:22.961 --> 01:43:27.131 Because I think logically that's where this conversation would go. 01:43:27.591 --> 01:43:31.251 And I think many of us who would listen to something like this 01:43:31.251 --> 01:43:32.341 would have those questions. 01:43:33.131 --> 01:43:34.991 So what I'm going to do is I'm going to invite the listeners 01:43:34.991 --> 01:43:36.841 to send in their questions. 01:43:36.841 --> 01:43:39.511 What are your questions to Nick about what he does? 01:43:40.011 --> 01:43:43.691 What are your questions about the nature that he's talked about of the censors? 01:43:44.296 --> 01:43:48.076 of how the senses, the intellect, and spirituality come together. 01:43:48.316 --> 01:43:49.626 What do you think about self love? 01:43:49.626 --> 01:43:51.056 What do you think about pilgrimage? 01:43:51.366 --> 01:43:53.096 What do you think about resurrection? 01:43:55.576 --> 01:43:58.106 Even if those are just questions, especially if those are just questions. 01:43:58.456 --> 01:44:01.746 And then let's kick those questions around on round two with Nick. 01:44:04.176 --> 01:44:06.986 Before we go, Nick, how do people find you? 01:44:07.056 --> 01:44:09.036 How do people book a course with you? 01:44:09.036 --> 01:44:12.396 How do people go walk around London with you, let alone Italy? 01:44:12.726 --> 01:44:13.406 Or Suffolk? 01:44:14.066 --> 01:44:14.626 Or India? 01:44:15.541 --> 01:44:19.351 or can they also have conversations with you online? 01:44:20.081 --> 01:44:23.571 What are the mechanisms by which people can contact AHA and you? 01:44:25.161 --> 01:44:28.801 Nick Ross: Well, the key one, I suppose, is the website is arthistoryabroad. 01:44:29.941 --> 01:44:30.211 com. 01:44:31.721 --> 01:44:38.281 But that will describe some of the things we do. 01:44:39.241 --> 01:44:45.351 But to be honest, it's that whole thing of keeping things simple and direct, 01:44:46.581 --> 01:44:51.381 which doesn't necessarily reflect The complexity of other things that we do. 01:44:52.161 --> 01:44:56.441 So, there's that, but, but I'll ultimately write either to info at 01:44:57.051 --> 01:44:58.611 Art History abroad or better still. 01:44:58.611 --> 01:45:01.491 Write to nick@arthistoryabroad.com. 01:45:01.871 --> 01:45:04.151 Rupert Isaacson: nick@arthistoryabroad.com. 01:45:04.391 --> 01:45:06.371 Nick Ross: Yeah, and that's Nick, NICK. 01:45:06.856 --> 01:45:07.066 Okay. 01:45:07.676 --> 01:45:09.116 Nick at arthistoryabroad. 01:45:09.146 --> 01:45:11.216 com and that, and that'll come through to me. 01:45:11.366 --> 01:45:17.966 And, and particularly if anybody is doing such a thing to just reference Rupert on, 01:45:18.006 --> 01:45:23.476 on, on the email and then, and then, and then I will leap into an action that is 01:45:23.476 --> 01:45:25.416 unfamiliar to many people who write to me. 01:45:27.726 --> 01:45:30.866 Anyway, so, so no, I enjoyed hearing from people. 01:45:31.186 --> 01:45:31.596 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:45:31.656 --> 01:45:36.316 I, I would, I would encourage Listeners write to Nick, ask 01:45:36.316 --> 01:45:39.706 him stuff, font of information. 01:45:40.226 --> 01:45:42.386 I have learned so much from you, Nick, over the years 01:45:42.426 --> 01:45:44.646 that we've known each other. 01:45:44.776 --> 01:45:50.686 Time with you is always time beautifully spent, satisfyingly spent. 01:45:51.396 --> 01:45:57.656 The, the, the, the, the, the pleasure of discovery I always 01:45:57.726 --> 01:46:00.896 have when I'm in your company is. 01:46:01.916 --> 01:46:02.716 Something I cherish. 01:46:02.726 --> 01:46:09.616 So thank you so much for sharing that in a wider context here on the podcast and I 01:46:09.616 --> 01:46:11.096 look forward to having you back for more. 01:46:11.946 --> 01:46:12.186 Thank 01:46:12.186 --> 01:46:12.396 Nick Ross: you. 01:46:12.456 --> 01:46:13.506 Yeah, happily come back. 01:46:13.556 --> 01:46:13.856 Thank you 01:46:13.856 --> 01:46:14.306 Rupert Isaacson: very much. 01:46:15.036 --> 01:46:15.456 All right. 01:46:15.536 --> 01:46:16.196 Till next time. 01:46:16.976 --> 01:46:17.536 Bye for now. 01:46:17.636 --> 01:46:18.116 Bye bye. 01:46:18.506 --> 01:46:19.616 Thank you for joining us. 01:46:19.646 --> 01:46:21.476 We hope you enjoyed today's podcast. 01:46:21.714 --> 01:46:26.754 Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online 01:46:26.754 --> 01:46:31.944 courses and live workshops in Horse Boy Method, movement Method, and Athena. 01:46:32.652 --> 01:46:37.300 These evidence-based programs have helped children, veterans, and people 01:46:37.300 --> 01:46:39.310 dealing with trauma around the world. 01:46:39.637 --> 01:46:43.387 We also offer a horse training program and self-care program 01:46:43.387 --> 01:46:46.627 for riders on long ride home.com. 01:46:46.926 --> 01:46:50.976 These include easy to do online courses and tutorials that 01:46:50.976 --> 01:46:52.896 bring you and your horse joy. 01:46:53.432 --> 01:46:57.992 For an overview of all shows and programs, go to rupert isaacson.com. 01:46:58.322 --> 01:46:59.252 See you on the next show. 01:46:59.665 --> 01:47:02.355 And please remember to press, subscribe and share.