Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free Ride Free, where we talk to people who
have lived self-actualized lives on their own terms, and find out how they
got there, what they do, how we can get there, what we can learn from them.
How to live our best lives, find our own definition of success,
and most importantly, find joy.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.
New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy.
Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.
Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free.
I've got someone really amazing and wonderful, as all my livery
ride free people are today.
It's Nick Ross.
, Nick Ross is not a household name.
You do not need to be a household name in order to live a self-actualized life.
, you just have to go live one.
And of the many people I know who've really achieved this,
Nick's one of my heroes.
I've known Nick, since he and I were of university age, so this was a.
40 or 50,000 years ago, I think in the younger driest ice age, in between the
masteron and the Mammoth, evolution.
And in that time, Nick was, always famous among our
peer group for two things.
, one was his passion for art and art history, which he had then he has now
and has lived through and has managed to make a living out of, in a way that
people would always say to him, well, you can't make a living out of that.
Oh, it's all very well studying that, but you can't make a living out of that.
You know, you never make a living out of that and you certainly can't bring
up your kids and educate them on that.
No Bloody Charlie well has, and he hasn't done it in a
boring, academic sort of way.
Not that there's anything wrong with being a professor of, art history.
In fact, we love the fact that people are.
But no, he's done it completely honest in own terms, in a really interesting way.
Those of you who are familiar with the romantic period of, British and
indeed European history will probably know something called the Grand Tour.
And, those of you who don't know what the Grand Tour is, well now I'm gonna
tell you, there was a time, and it really started, in the Renaissance when the
sons of the nobility of Europe were encouraged to go and educate themselves,
by traveling around the ancient sites of Italy, Roman Renaissance and so on.
And later on to some degree Greece as well, and learned the humanities and
basically learn to appreciate culture and learn a certain sort of humility and a
certain sort of, emotional regulation.
In the face of the grand passions of the arts and, the idea of standing
on the shoulders of giants and so on.
And some people saw this as a self-indulgent exercise of, you know,
rich young men sort of drinking and whoing and fighting their way around,
the flesh pits of, of the Mediterranean.
And although it's not that, that never happened cuz you were
dealing with young men here.
much of the literature and art that we take for granted that came out of the
particularly early 19th century period, like Byron, like Shelly, like Keets,
or it came out of these experiences.
and that's just, that's just the, the handful that spring to my mind these days.
Nick has taken that idea and made it much more democratic and also not strictly
male and not strictly for the rich and.
Has opened this idea of going to these places and, and imbibing this culture
as a way to mature the young minds who will become the leaders of tomorrow.
And has made an extraordinarily good go of it and has had an enormous amount
of fun along the way and has indeed, I would say, trained some of the leaders
of today, because we're going back a whole generation now when this began.
So, Nick Ross is really a, an example of if you have a passion and you wanna follow
it, don't let anybody talk you out of it.
Don't let anybody say you can't make doing that, because what they mean is
they can't make a living doing that.
And if you make a living doing that well, it makes them feel
a bit bad about themselves.
So you want to sort of do what Nick did and sort of jolly
well go ahead and do it now.
There were two things I said that stood out about Nick.
That was one, his passion for art.
For showing people this art.
The other thing was his bio capes that he would wear and still
does, and his elegantly striding.
Yet at the same time, heroically limping gait, which came as a result of a broken
neck while doing something he wrote while playing rugby as a very young
man while actually still at school.
And again, having been told that perhaps his prospects weren't so good
and that certainly spending the next 50 years, leading, groups of, high
spirited you young leaders of the next generation around kilometers
and kilometers and kilometers and kilometers and kilometers and kilometers
and kilometers of ancient cities and sight wouldn't really be possible.
Well, he beat those odds.
, so I want to shut up now and let you meet Nick.
So without further ado, Nick, hello and thanks for coming on Live Free Ride for,
Nick Ross: hi there, Ru.
Thank you very much.
That's, yes.
I didn't know you knew that much about me.
, Rupert Isaacson: well, you know, it's been a few years.
Yeah.
, and obviously I'm a huge fan.
Always have been.
tell us who you are, where'd you come from, and what kicked
your life off along this path?
Nick Ross: Oh, , so, father, father was a, , naval officer mother.
Joan had polio when she was ju just after they were engaged.
So, in a way, , my difficulties physically were, were I, I
ended up mirroring my mother.
Interesting, many respect that I didn't know.
And, and, so she had Beba Polio in 1947 and didn't have the use of her left arm.
and, and actually she was probably about 20% of any other physically able person.
So the idea of growing up with disability was, was, was, completely
normal for us as, so that's, that's sort of kind of where I came from.
, and, why, why did I end up doing what I'm doing now?
Well, there's two reasons.
, as you point out, the, the first one was that I ended up breaking my spine,
playing rugby, and, and I wound up in, in a hospital bed at Stoke Mandeville.
And, , and then I, I, , I remember being there and, , and realizing that.
What I had hoped would be a career in the Navy was never gonna happen.
And that until that point in my life when I was 16, I'd, , I'd been Mr.
Sporty if you, if you could define me.
It was that I was fast at running and I loved, , rugby and stuff like that.
And, and, , and I'd shown no signs of having a brain.
And, , and I remember lying there in bed thinking, I've gotta change the Braun
into brain now if I'm gonna be left with only my mind and no physical presence
or, you know, no, no activity, then I would, I would have to employ my mind.
At
Rupert Isaacson: what age, how, what, what age were you
when you had this realization?
, Nick Ross: I was 16.
Okay.
And, And, , so I started reading, , which I, I had, really tried to
avoid up until, until that point.
Rupert Isaacson: Did they, did they actually have to teach
you to read in the hospital?
Nick Ross: Pretty well?
Very well.
Anyway.
The, the, but the, the other thing was that my, my parents, they
had, when they first married, they didn't have very much money.
It was that sort of post-war period.
And, they, they worked really hard and they didn't go on holiday.
They never left the farm that they took up because my father left the Navy in
order to look after my mother, and he needed a job where he could work at home.
So he thought, all I know about is the sea and managing men and fighting.
, and, so he thought, well, I, I do also know a lot about the weather,
and so I'll take up farming.
And so he did farming.
And, what sort of farmer was he?
Well started off mixed.
Mixed an arable, but then ended up just doing dairy.
But, but he, they, they didn't go away for 18 years, because they
were building the farm, building family, all of those sorts of things.
And when I was seven they went, they took us all to Florence and my parents
did an awful lot of work before we went so that they always knew where, wherever
we were, whatever building we were in, they kind of knew some story about it.
And, and that's sort of where it all came from.
So, jumped 10 years, or jumped nine years to, to the day
that I ended up in hospital.
If you'd asked me then what else are you interested in?
It was art.
And it was entirely because my parents had made sure that whenever we went
somewhere that they weren't dragging us around, that they had something
to say, you know, they were informed.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that's interesting that, given that your dad was ex-military
and then became a farmer and then you were growing up as a, a farm boy when
you weren't at school and when you were at school being a jock, art would seem
a little bit of a guilty secret to have.
Was that something that you kept to yourself or was that something
you willingly shared with the other jocks and would pop them on the
nose if they teased you about it?
Or how did that, because those are two, those are normally two
exclusive cultures within the school.
There'd be the jocks and the Fs.
Right.
And so you were, you were sort of an equal hybrid there.
Yeah.
How, how did that happen?
Nick Ross: oh, the, no, I think, I think, people generally
knew I was interested enough.
I was always around the art school, and put on, I remember we did,
we did something on, on futurism.
When I was about 13 and, and we just transformed the, we, we built
a structure inside the art school.
and it was a sort of passage through war.
And yeah, no, so I think people knew I was interested in art.
Yeah.
So that wasn't a conflict, that wasn't a problem, if you see what I mean.
Mm-hmm.
But I take your point.
It, it, it doesn't sit, it doesn't sit, , conveniently together.
Rupert Isaacson: So you're lying in this hospital bed in Stoke Mandeville.
But for those listeners who don't know Stoke Mandeville is if you have
a really bad spinal injury in the uk, you're gonna end up in Stok, Mandeville.
and when I was at school, there was a boy who, , broke his neck on
the rugby field as well, who ended up there and he didn't make it.
So, it just, if you ended up there, it meant that it was pretty serious.
so you are lying there.
you are thinking, oh God, you know, there go my dreams.
I'm only 16.
But I love art.
And you haven't been back to Italy since you were seven, or have you at this point?
No.
Right.
No.
So, so this is a cherish memory.
A a de and a decade old, which is a long time for somebody that young,
obviously that's half your life.
more, you begin to read.
What are you
Nick Ross: reading?
Oh, everything about two thirds through, because I started reading
the story, Gore's story of art.
and then I started reading other books.
But the thing was that, because at the time I had very little movement, I could
only rarely ro move my, rotate my wrist.
I couldn't, I, I had no, I had no biceps.
And I didn't have anything else.
Stomach, muscles, legs stalled the rest, none of them worked.
And, but I could rotate my wrist.
so rather like a royal wave, I could, I could do this, which meant that
the, there was a, I had a leather strap around my hand, which, upon
which or into which was stuck.
an aluminum stick with a pat post office, you know, one of those, , finger po po
rubber things that you put at the end of the finger to, to turn pages quickly.
Okay.
And, and, with this peculiar, this royal wave, I could, I could just flick
the top of the, Left hand page, having read the, the spread, I could flick
the top of the left hand page and then sh and then, and then push it under
the keeper of the right hand keeper.
Okay.
Show me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I've got, I've got this lectin with a book over
Rupert Isaacson: my head.
So you are lying on your back looking up at the book.
Yeah.
And the book is suspended over your face at this point?
Nick Ross: Yes.
And, and, I had to bite my thumb, because if my arm spasmed, it would
spasm away from my face, which would take my hand away from the book.
And I didn't have the biceps to get their arm back again.
So I had to bite my thumb in order to keep hold of it.
And then, and then flick one page and then, and then if you see what I mean,
Push it under the keeper the other side.
As the book got heavier on the right hand side, the more I read, it became
unstable from its left hand tethering.
And so every so often it would just collapse.
As I got towards the, the, it got further through the book, it would
get heavier on the right hand side and it would keep on collapsing.
So I am, I'm really shit after about 1900 in terms of art, because that
was in the last third of the book.
so, so kept you, kept you in the Renaissance?
Kept me in the Renaissance.
That's the only reason I know anything about it.
Rupert Isaacson: and how long did this level of disability last?
Nick Ross: I was, I was in there for about eight, well nine months.
and I, I was just walking, by the time I left I could just
about bear my own weight.
And, and yeah, I could walk.
I wasn't, it wasn't totally unaided, but, but then, but then I went
straight back to school cuz I'd missed my lower sixth year, so my
penultimate year at secondary school.
And, so I went back straight back to school to my A levels in a year.
which wasn't a good idea.
Well, it was actually in one sense because it meant that I
kept up with ev all of my mates.
but it wasn't long enough to do three A levels and besides, I,
I was running the school bar, which was really quite good fun.
Of course you were.
Yeah.
And, and
Rupert Isaacson: delegating the hefting of the crates and barrels.
Nick Ross: Yes.
All but, but the long and the short of it was today.
I ended up, with really, really appalling A levels and, and said, so
I did all sorts of other things for a while, but always wanted to get back
towards art history in some way or form.
Rupert Isaacson: So just quickly before, while you're still there
in state mander, was there any point, were you really despaired?
Nick Ross: yes.
Yeah, there was one, one point when my spine wasn't.
it's a peculiarity of spinal injuries that, in, in where, where normally
children, when you break a bone, you fix really quickly when you break your
neck, you don't, you do, you do break the bones, but it's, but it's the cartilage in
between as you dislocate, you know, things that, that's the problem and that's where.
You get severance of the spinal cord and, and that's what
leads to the paralysis weirdly.
For younger people, it doesn't fix so well.
And, and that's exactly what happened to me.
So after, after about, 12 weeks, my spine actually hadn't fused in any way.
It hadn't joined up.
And, , so they had to do an operation on me, and I had very limited movement.
That movement that I had was how I was reading and so on.
Anyway, I heard the, the orthopedic, because all I could see was the ceiling.
I couldn't feel anything.
And so my ear, my hearing got really good and I could overhear.
The orthopedic surgeon who thought he was out of earshot, say, you know, it's, it's,
we've very rarely done this operation.
It's very dangerous.
He may lose everything that he's got so far and we may do more damage than good.
And, and the next morning I projectile putte all over the, the male
nurse who was giving me breakfast.
And I projectile puked everything for the next two and a half weeks.
And what it was, was that I was shit scared.
I was deeply, deeply frightened, that I was gonna, I was gonna lose everything and
I was going to be finally without options.
And,
Rupert Isaacson: and did you keep all this to yourself or did you share this
Nick Ross: with anybody?
Well, the thing was that I was sharing so much vomit with everybody
that, that, everybody knew I, you know, they, everybody else around
me knew that the only reason I was throwing up like this was cuz I was.
I was, I was terrified.
Rupert Isaacson: And you had to live in suspense then for two weeks or
so after having heard this with, with the uncertainty of the outcome.
Nick Ross: Yeah, exactly.
And the problem was that, I was losing so much weight.
I went in at about 13, 13 and a half stone and six foot, and
I was down below six stone.
And they were, and, and I was getting so thin that they thought that, I
wouldn't be able to sustain an operation.
Rupert Isaacson: And again, for those, for those, listeners who don't know
the English, weight measurements, he is, you're ba he's basically
gone in there, as a teenager of about 130, 140 pounds, at six foot,
which is, you know, light athletic.
And gone down to 50, 60 pounds at six foot, which is not healthy at all.
Why did they decide to operate when you had lost so much weight?
oh, well, the,
Nick Ross: the, if they didn't operate, my spine would just be kind
of floating in the, the vertebrae would've been floating in jelly.
Okay.
So to speak.
And so it was
Rupert Isaacson: do or die at that point?
Yes.
Nick Ross: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
okay.
Then you wake up from the operation.
Yes.
do you think, oh shit, I've, I've actually lost everything because
you're feeling, lying there, feeling weak or do you, does some part
of, you know, okay, this is good.
Oh,
Nick Ross: well, no, actually, do you know, I haven't
thought about this since ever.
Actually, I do remember coming round and, you know, the, my physiotherapist.
senior consultant were all shouting at me trying to get
me to move and, and just see.
Anyway, so I did, I did have the bicep.
That was the, it was my right bicep that I wanted back, most of all.
Cuz if I had that, I knew that I had a chance of getting my fingers back.
And if I had one hand and one arm, I'd be the same as my mom.
And if she, the, and that was my focus was that if I had, if I just had that, I knew
that she'd had four children on one arm.
So, so why couldn't I, you know, it would all be fine.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
fast forward, how many kids have you had?
three.
All right.
So you, you, well you've maybe got time to make up one more.
We'll see.
Unless there's any out there that you dunno of.
okay.
So, how quickly from then.
From that operation?
Are you up and walking and, are you, do you continue to read and
do you read more voraciously at
Nick Ross: that point?
Yeah, no, so I'm, I'm now, it took me another six months to, to be walking
six, seven months to be walking.
And then I was reading, I was reading all the time.
Rupert Isaacson: what, what was the, what's the book that
really stands out from that time?
Nick Ross: ooh, oh.
Prob probably Bax Sandal who wrote Painting and Experience
in 15th Century Florence
Rupert Isaacson: Bax, Sendal.
How do we spell
Nick Ross: that?
B A X A N D A
Rupert Isaacson: double L.
Bax Sinal.
B A X A N D A L L.
Yeah.
And the, the title of the book.
Nick Ross: Painting and experience in 15th century Florence
Rupert Isaacson: painting and experience in 15th.
And why does that book, why did that book stand out?
, Nick Ross: cause it's, it's all about, , context.
So he talks about, , weights and measures.
He talks about, , you know, who, who may, who made paint.
he's, he's talking about the current, he's talking about currency.
, he's talking about all of those little aspects of life that
people tend to forget, that have a bearing on the way things appear.
Right.
and, , what was it the other day?
I, I was, something was going around the internet the other day
about the gauge of railway lines.
, the distance between railway tracks and it being related to.
Which is a, which is a measurement that's now spread around the world.
, but it relates to a tunnel in, in South Wales, something like that.
I'm probably getting this wrong, but it's a, it's a, it's a, it's, it's, it's
just an explanation of why something is ordinary and as common as the size
of a train is related to something that happened in the 18th century.
That was some, some engineer somewhere just said, oh, well there's a problem.
This is a solution.
And then it's get, it gets stuck in the system.
It's rather like laws that stuck on the statute books.
I'm kind of interested in the detri of history that may that explains
why things are the way they are.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Got it.
And you, and you picked that up while lying there on your back trying to go
from one bicep to the rest of your body.
Yes.
Nick Ross: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So you, you.
Fuel the fire of your passion while lying there.
you go back to school, you run a bar, why not?
Yeah.
you, your A levels are okay, but I, when I met you, a, a levels
again, by the way, for readers not familiar with the English, system.
You must have a levels at the end of school if you want to get to university.
Now, when I met you, of course you had gone to university, so
you said you did stuff in between.
So, so fill us in.
You, you don't go straight to university to do art history at this point.
You, you leave school and you do what?
Nick Ross: so, so I, then, I then, okay, so at school, cause they broke my spine,
I was, I, I I, I became very well known.
Everybody knew who I was.
So, so in a, which is a weird place to be because at 16, 17, you're
trying to work out who you are, right?
But if you are surrounded by people who already know who you are, it's a,
it's a, it's a curious place to be in.
Okay.
And, and, so when I left school, I didn't wanna have anything to do with
connections or anybody, any, any friends.
Okay.
I just wanted to find my own job, my own place to live, my own life.
I wanted to work out, find out if I could exist, if I could work, if I was,
if I was socially adept, as opposed to just being the bloke who broke his
neck, who everybody knows who he is.
I dunno if that makes any sense.
It does.
And
Rupert Isaacson: or, and or the bloke who get you get free drinks off
Nick Ross: in the bar.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So I ended up, I ended up in a shitty little bed, sit in Fulham.
and, where I could, I could sit on the edge of my bed, wash, dress,
and sleep all in the same place.
Take 1 1, 1 stride and I'd be out the door.
It was tiny.
Okay.
I got my j my myself, a job at Liberties, which is a, a big
haberdasher's, big department store.
One of the earliest department stores in London.
And then, and then I ended up working as a bank clerk, doing anything, doing
nights, you know, you know how it is, you know, 18, 19, you just, you need money,
you gotta go and find it somewhere.
And then I ended up working as a, as a volunteer in a museum in Manchester.
and, because I wanted to get somewhere towards the arts, but I, I, I, didn't
have the A levels, I needed some something to go to a university interview with.
And so I ended up working in Manchester and I was also quite
interested in photography.
So I started taking photographs of, Of, pubs on the way, on the
way home from the art gallery.
And, there's a theme running here.
and,
Rupert Isaacson: and it's good to know that you're dedicated to research.
Yes.
Yeah.
Nick Ross: And if, if you know about, developing or printing,
black, white photographs, so I take these rather dramatic images
and then I print them myself.
But, but if you know the old-fashioned process, I would under fixx them in the
dark room so that they would then, when they would dry and put in a black bag.
If you opened the bag and exposed it to light, then the print would
disappear in about five minutes.
Okay.
And the reason I did this, It's simply that if you take a photograph and try
to sell it to anybody, it's really difficult to get the money outta them.
so I would, I would under fix the photograph, dry it, stick it in the
black bag, and stick on the outside.
A sort of mission impossible types.
Sticker had them express, especially printed, which said, in this
bag is a photograph of your pub.
It will self destruct in five minutes.
If you want it, ring this number and I'll bring it around to
you and you give me the money.
That sort of thing.
Rupert Isaacson: Anyway, anyone give you that idea?
It's a brilliant idea.
Why didn't you spend No, no, no.
Well, it was just doing that,
Nick Ross: you know how well in those days if you went to a party, people
would, take your photograph outside.
Yeah.
And, and, but they never, I never got it.
I never understood how they made it any money because people would
take the photograph and never pay.
So anyway, so I just thought if I, if you novel the photograph from the outset,
then, then, Then, so then they would open the photograph when, you know, I'd, I'd
encouraged them to open the photograph when there were others around and and
they loved the photographs and they'd give me a call and say, great, we'd like it.
So I printed up, on really fine paper and then take it round mounted and everything.
And they loved the photographs cause they were sort of gritty, urban, you
know, reflections in puddles type images, you know, the ones, and,
Rupert Isaacson: and, and the pub owners liked that.
They didn't want you to take chocolate boxy things, that they thought No,
Nick Ross: they loved the black and white grainy thing and the, but
then the thing was that people would ask me to photograph their kids and
that was the, that was the thing.
So then I'd spend all weekends photographing people's families and
printing them up on black and white.
Okay.
And and that's how I made a living cuz I was working.
And you were doing all
Rupert Isaacson: this in Manchester?
Yeah.
Okay.
So you are taking photographs of disappearing pubs and children.
Yes.
I'd rather like that y your kids will self distract in five minutes.
Yeah, no.
Great.
On that image there.
Yes, I will.
I will buy.
How much, then, you're at this museum.
What's going on in this museum?
How's this get you to
Nick Ross: university?
a really amazing museum director who, who, what's in the museum?
Sorry?
What's in the museum?
Oh, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a great, Manchester City Art Gallery
is one of the great collections of prera flight paintings.
Okay.
It's Manchester City Art Gallery.
Yeah.
And, and the director there, a guy called Tim Clifford, said, listen, please don't
come and work for an afternoon or a day a week like most volunteers, because it's
difficult to find things for people to do.
come and work full-time.
If you're young, come and work full-time, and I promise I'll
buy you lunch every Monday.
And and I didn't, I didn't really realize, until much later in life how
valuable that was cuz it meant I had an hour with this supremely ambitious
man and he would ch chat about what I was doing and what he was doing.
And I learned so much from him.
He mentored you basically.
Yeah.
And, and also I now realize that in that sort of position, lunch
is a really valuable tool lunch.
And he was giving me one of his five lunches a week, so he was
giving up a lot to mentor me.
Rupert Isaacson: And you have now reminded me that, so, for
readers, art History abroad, which is which is Nick's, company, which
we're gonna go into in a minute.
One of the things that everybody who's ever done anything connected
with this incredible company, which.
Has affected people's lives around the world.
there, there are people in power around the world who know art history abroad
and the art history abroad lunches.
and the power of those lunches is very interesting that, this lunch
thing to some degree begins there.
Yeah.
even to the point that, our, our dear mutual friend, Tom Parsons, who I
hope to get on here as well, did you invent this or did he invent this?
that, the cure for depression is to take a song with the word
love in the title and replace the
Nick Ross: word love with the word lunch.
That's more Tom than That's that.
I think that's Tom.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It's good.
I tried it.
It works.
It works completely.
Nick Ross: every time I feel about, can you gimme an example?
Can
Rupert Isaacson: you, yeah.
I wanna know what lunch is.
I want you to show me.
I feel so passion about this, you know, that, brilliant.
Yeah.
to you bear leave in lunch after all.
Nick Ross: Okay.
Lunch.
We do.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Lunch.
Lunch We do.
All you need is lunch.
Yep.
So there's something in innately cheerful about lunch.
Is something innately optimistic about lunch.
Yes.
Yeah.
But, and as we know, innately cheerful.
Yeah.
It, it's, it's where deals are made.
because you're
Nick Ross: not winding, you know, my, my dad's victims on this.
Tell me, the, his, okay.
Robert Woodward, another big figure in our lives said, lunch is not
lunch unless you have a glass of wine.
Anything if no glass of wine, anything less is a snack.
Yes.
Okay.
And
Rupert Isaacson: Robert Woodward again for readers, I wish we could
have Robert Woodward on this show.
because in terms of one of the great self actualizes of
Western history, he stands out.
those of us who knew him, and we'll, we'll talk about him a bit,
hopefully, maybe you'll talk about him, Nick, cuz he, he's obviously
very relevant to this story.
But meanwhile, you are being, you are being mentored by this,
very amazing, museum director.
Even though you've, you're living in a bed seat, you're, you're taking some pictures.
You're working as a, as a, as a volunteer.
his name again is
Nick Ross: Tim Clifford.
Timothy Clifford.
Rupert Isaacson: Tim.
Tim Clifford.
Did he, then, what did he go on to
Nick Ross: do?
he then became director of National Galleries of Scotland.
And, and he was, he was kind of the, the, the best national, you know, he
should, he, it would've been lovely if he got the V N A or the National
Gallery, or the Met in New York.
All, all of which, he was touted for at different times.
but it is quite a tr controversial figure.
and, and he's sort of, I, I always rather feel that he's the best
museum director of a major, major national museum that we never had.
Okay.
I think he, he was, he was very, very good.
and I was, you know, I was very lucky to spend time with him.
And, for example, he would give me, so he would give me, display cases.
He'd say, what's in, what do you find interesting in the collection?
Cause I knew the basement, I knew all of the stuff that wasn't on display.
Okay.
He said, find me something by next week.
That you want, you want to talk to me about something that's never been seen.
And Dan, there, there was some something, you've probably seen them there.
The, the bone ships, Napoleonic ships or sort of Nelson,
Rupert Isaacson: made by the prisoners of war.
Yeah.
In the, the French Napoleonic prisoners of war in the internment campus in the uk.
I have seen some of those, yes.
Yeah.
So
Nick Ross: he's in makes detail.
Yeah, he's, he said, I came back and I said, oh, I'm interested in this.
And he said, great.
Okay.
I'll give you two display cases in the main gallery.
but from, you know, six weeks from now.
So, you know, and, and it's up to you.
It's up to you to curate it, tell people about it, write about it, whatever.
And he just gave me that, that is a problem.
Rupert Isaacson: And so he started basically grooming
you to become a curator.
Why did he take such a shine to you?
What, what, what was going, did, did he do this kind of with every intern that came.
Nick Ross: No, no, I think, I think, you know, he was, he was just, no, I dunno.
He, he, he, I knew he, I, I, the reason I kind of got in the door was
that, he had worked a very old cousin of, of minus man called Trench Cox,
after whom we named the scholarship.
And, and, and, Trenchard was the museum director when
Tim Clifford was a young man.
And so when I subsequently wrote to Tim Clifford and said, I'm a cousin of
Trench Cox, you may remember, that was, I think that possibly opened the door.
I dunno,
Rupert Isaacson: perhaps Bob perhaps to the initial say, okay, I'll give
it, I'll give the kid a, a shot.
But he didn't have to go the extra mile.
And, and have you begin to curate things?
Nick Ross: No.
No.
And by, and by that stage, one of the other jobs he gave me was
to, to organize, The friends of the Manchester City Art Gallery.
So this, this, this, you know, if you like a membership, I used to
organize events for them, and I think he go, you know, they went well.
So I think he, he quite liked me for that.
Is that the story of the cheetahs?
Oh yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Tell us the story of the cheetah.
Okay.
Drum roll everybody.
The story of
Nick Ross: the cheetahs.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, okay.
I've gotta be careful.
So, so, so there are the, at Manchester, there's the, there's the
very, there's now very famous Stubbs, 18th century painter called Stubbs.
Who's for, who is, who's better known for, for painting horses.
But Stubbs did at one point a, a picture of two cheetah and two, two Moors,
two, handlers, dressed beautifully in turbines and, and, north African
Rupert Isaacson: dress tame cheetah being used for coursing for hunting.
Yes.
As they used to be used in the courts of Asia and the Middle
East, right?
Yeah.
Nick Ross: And sorting.
Great picture.
Sort of, eight 12 feet square, something like that.
And Tim Clifford bought it.
And, and it's one of the, it's, it's a, you know, and this was
what he was really good at.
He was really good at finding pictures that had otherwise missed people's
attention and buying them in anyway, so they were, they raised the money,
they bought this picture and they were gonna have the big opening.
And Tim got him in those days what was probably the best caterers in Manchester.
And these, these two fantastic caterers came in and they looked at the pictures
and they, they looked at the contents of the bit and they said, boys, we have
got to have, Ethiopians as the waiters.
And I don't think anybody would get away with this now, I have to say.
But, but there's another era.
Yeah.
So there was caviar, there was, there were these, Ethiopian men, beared to the
waist wearing great pantaloons and so on.
And he hired two Cheetah.
Of course he did.
And, and it was, it was due on a, on a Monday night.
And, and the la the Manchester is, is, is a, a fantastic area of the world.
It's brilliant, amazing city.
And, the, it was bang in the middle of the minors strike.
So in English history, British history, it was at a point when there
was such social division, fostered, let's say by, by Margaret Thatcher.
And, and a clash of the unions and the clash of ideologies.
And, if you can imagine the.
The, the, the, the left wing counselors in the town
Rupert Isaacson: hall across the Yeah, it was class war, basically.
Full on
Nick Ross: class war.
Yeah.
And, and it was like the battleship Kin, they, they stormed the building
and, and I was upstairs, so people
Rupert Isaacson: with pitchforks and and torches outside,
Nick Ross: roaring in and rushing up the stairs where they were met.
Halfway up the steps by all of the conservative counselors
who were in the party.
And there was this handbag swinging, you know, fy casts, lots of wrestling
in that slightly sort of drunk, posh English way of doing it.
And, falling
Rupert Isaacson: down the stairs in Tweed jackets.
Yeah.
Nick Ross: Tugging of shirts, everything.
Anyway, the battle continued upstairs and, and, lots of pushing and shoving.
And then at one point, somebody fell backwards into a plinth holding a,
sporting an amazing Barack sculpture.
By a man called Algar Algar, who's a sort of pupil of benini.
And this thing wobbled.
And you probably know that sensation if, if you tap, you tap something and,
and whatever is unsecured on top will wobble and, and, and you know that
it's probably best not to interfere.
And, and, and, you can only watch, you can
Rupert Isaacson: only watch in Ara.
Nick Ross: Yeah.
And, and anyway, instead of settling back down, there came a dreadful
point when all of us realized because the fight had stopped.
There was silence in the room as we all watched this wobble
and, and it started to go.
And, and this was priceless.
And into that space left, one of the waiters who, who like a diving
superman, but without a shirt on, dived across the, a great.
Saved this thing.
Wow.
Yeah, no, it was a great night.
It was a great night.
Rupert Isaacson: Eh, then did all, did the counselors that had tried to storm
the party then accept a drink and Yeah, it all gone down after that and that
Nick Ross: brought everybody,
Rupert Isaacson: everyone was mates again.
Yeah.
No.
And the cheaters, how did they far,
Nick Ross: you know, they, they kind of, nobody kind of took
any notice of that anymore.
It was, the party had created its own drama.
Ah.
Rupert Isaacson: there are, there are parties.
And parties.
That was a party.
Nick Ross: Yeah.
That was a great party.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: okay, so you, you are there at the, at the museum now.
For how long?
How long do you
Nick Ross: stay there for?
For a year and then, and then, but, but, but, but it did its thing you see,
because I wanted to get to university and, and, and so off the back of that,
that, that being at the museum, I got an interview at, at University of Visa
Sanger to go and read History of Art.
Okay.
So they saw me for an interview, and then during the interview I didn't
really have, you know, a lot to go on.
Not in terms of, results or qualifications, but they, they, in
those days, and I think they still do a bit bit now, as quite often
you'll just show somebody photographs of artifacts or things and, and
say, you know, tell me about it.
And, and, and it's a good system and you're trying to register
somebody's visual acuity.
And, anyway, I was shown a photograph of a painting, that I didn't know
what it was, wh when it was painted, and I didn't know who it was by.
and I didn't even really know the subject, but I knew where it was.
And, and so I told this to a man called Eric Furney who was interviewing me.
I said, I.
Can't tell you anything about it, but I'll tell you where it is.
And he said, oh, right, where is it?
And I said, oh, well, you go to Florence and you go to the biggest square in
Florence and there's a, there's a building in there with a huge, great
tower, I dunno what it's called.
But anyway, you go in there and you go in through the courtyard and you go to the
staircase, you go out three flights of stairs and there's a door on your left.
You go in that door and you're in a so great hall, and you take a a right,
and you go to the right backhand corner and there are some steps.
You go up there and it's a small room and it's the first painting on the left.
And you remember this from when you were seven years old?
Yeah.
And, because it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a study for a guy called Francesco Mechi.
And, and I was, and it is, and it's, it's hard to get into.
And my dad got permission to get in there.
And so we looked at, and, and now I know it's a, it's a story of Perus Ndro
and, and it's the mythological reason why we had have red Coral, cuz Perus,
when fighting Andromeda or fighting for Andromeda, is fighting a great dragon.
And he whips out Medusa's head and to turn the dragon stone and he puts the
head down, having turned the dragon stone and blood dribbles out of the neck, the
severed neck of Medusa's head and dribbles into the sea and turns red and solidifies.
And that's how he get, despite the fact that
Rupert Isaacson: he's been carrying this stripping head
around for quite a long time.
It's stripped on other things, but
Nick Ross: doesn't seem to have, yeah, he probably left all
sorts of things, but, but that's
Rupert Isaacson: why we have red poppies and red Yeah, red rocks.
So
Nick Ross: anything red?
That's where we have it.
Okay.
Ah, well that's perfect.
That's, yeah.
Put it on somebody's pullover.
But, but, but as a result of that, Furney said, well, if you can remember that,
you can, you can, you can come here.
Rupert Isaacson: And why did that picture stand out so much for you?
Nick Ross: Oh, I think it was because my dad told me the story.
I just happened to know.
I couldn't remember any of the names, any of any, anything like that.
But
Rupert Isaacson: I couldn't remember.
It wasn't, it wasn't the image so much as the story.
Nick Ross: Yeah.
And that was what my dad was really good at.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I mean that, that's something which I'd
say marks out what you've done.
So again, just for listeners back in the day, I was lucky enough
to, teach a couple of history, sessions on some of Nick's,
epic journeys around healthy, the best.
yes.
I dunno how we survived.
but what I can tell you is that the story surrounding each painting, each
sculpture, each building, each quarter of the city that Nick and his people would
take us to, would come magically alive in a way that you can't say to a God.
You can't say teacher, you can't say.
And it's not, there's anything wrong with those.
And it's not that those can't be fascinating, but story and Mythos
story as its own art form is normally, separated from visual arts.
It's normally the, the, the, the power of the visual art has a story.
They talk about the story.
They say in this cigar painting, he's talking about this and the story is
this, but really what we want you to look at is his amazing composition or
his amazing use of color or this or this.
and for that reason, I've often found art, his, the way people
present art history a bit boring rather than the Game of Thrones.
Who was boning who, who was killing who, who was torturing who and therefore why
this street looks like it does, or, or why this painting hangs on that particular
war because somebody did this, something outrageous and funny and cruel and
bananas and whoa, that's interesting.
And I think that you have to have a special.
Talent for this.
and you know, some people put this down on the printed form and other
people tell it as oral history.
And one of the things which I think really stands out with art history abroad
is it's really the art of oral history, in our modern day in a way that I don't
think I've seen outside of some of the indigenous areas that I've worked in,
where they passed mythologies on that way.
So, okay.
You are, you are off to university.
I meet you because, you know, you are the cousin of someone
I was at university with.
There's Oh, yes.
Yeah.
Marion.
Marion, yeah.
There's, there's drunkenness, there's hilarity, there's the usual university
stuff when you come to visit Marion and you and my friend Tom become chums
because of a mutual love of art history.
He's doing art history as well.
At what point?
Do you become a hha art history abroad and start taking people and revolutionizing
the idea of the grand tour?
How do you go from that student to that person making your
Nick Ross: lesson doing this?
so I started doing a, I started doing a PhD after I
finished, after I got my degree.
And, , and I've just realized, Ruth, that, I've got, if, if you can, if,
and I may stick out on the recording.
There's the, there's the dog at my feet snoring and, right
Rupert Isaacson: now cuz I can hear my dog through the, through the door.
Right.
Okay.
And I'm hoping that's not coming into the , Well, it may, it
Nick Ross: may, it may show,
Rupert Isaacson: does that show the power of oral history?
If we can send, if we can send your dog to sleep, then you
know, you can tell a story.
Nick Ross: Yeah.
No, it's, it's a, it's a pug called Doug.
And, and the thing is that he, he finds enough di difficult enough
breathing anyway, but when he is asleep, it's really noisy.
And if I put him out of the door, he'll make so much bloody
noise trying to get back in.
Yes.
That it's actually easier just to put up with
Rupert Isaacson: him.
So, passively resistance, I think I, I sadly I can't hear him now.
All the now all the, now all the, we can, can you do it, can you give us
a quick impression before you go on
Nick Ross: to just leave him to it?
Listen, not coming through on my microphone.
No, he's not.
I know he is just stopped.
You'll have to listen anyway.
Can you give us
Rupert Isaacson: just a quick, give us your version of it
quickly before you go on.
Nick Ross: Oh, God, I can't even, it's so it's, I haven't got a cold.
If I hadn't cold, I, I could do it.
It's right up here in the, in
Rupert Isaacson: the sinus.
Yeah.
Anyway.
Oh, well, we'll have to, we'll have to imagine it.
Okay.
So you, you get your degree, you get, now you're on to do your PhD.
Yeah.
Nick Ross: So, so do doing the PhD and, , and I'm going backwards
and forwards to, to do research.
What do you think your PhD on?
It, well, officially it was on, an quarian studies in
early 17th century Rome.
Okay.
But what it's, what it is really is it's about a man called Kapok.
And, but the important thing is that he's the publisher of
Galileo, Galileo's Treatises.
I see.
And that's a risky thing to be,
Rupert Isaacson: that's a risky thing to you.
That gets you in trouble with the inquisition.
Nick Ross: I should think.
Yeah, but he was also papa secretary to Urban the aids.
Okay.
So he is got a foot in, in both corners, and that makes
him fundamentally interesting.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And so when they tortured Galileo, did they not torture his publisher
because his publisher could say, well, I don't, this doesn't necessarily
reflect the views of the publisher.
Disclaimer.
Yeah.
Nick Ross: That sort of thing.
Yeah.
Okay.
That's why
Rupert Isaacson: we have these disclaimers.
Nick Ross: Got it.
Yeah.
And, and, oh, now I can hear your doc.
Yeah, that was
Rupert Isaacson: a good one, isn't it?
It was a very good one.
Yeah.
Very good.
Nick Ross: so, so anyway, so no, it's just that he, he, KA commissioned, people
like Pusa and Salvador Ross and all sorts of really interesting artists and
period to go off and draw antiquities.
Okay.
And, and geological specimens and flora, fauna, citrus
Rupert Isaacson: fruit.
So basically he, he's commissioning the anti ecclesiastical arts and sciences.
Yes.
And even to some degree the metaphysical ones, cuz we know Pusa, had his foot in
the pagan, door as well to some degree in the sort of preason Rosa Crucian.
Therefore, all of these things will get you locked up by
the inquisition and worse.
Yes.
And you've got the, the popes, what is he
Nick Ross: to the pope people secretary?
Yeah, the papa secretary
Rupert Isaacson: is commissioning these people.
Yeah.
Fascinating.
Nick Ross: Okay.
It's, it's like, I dunno what, what, what would it be
in US terms, but certainly in.
in the cabinet office, in, in UK terms, if somebody was in the cabinet office.
Yeah.
so your major, major, dip, yes.
Rupert Isaacson: You'd be like, you'd be like a permanent secretary.
Nick Ross: Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Exactly.
That's it.
Rupert Isaacson: okay, so you're doing, so doing, you're doing your
PhD in, in 17th century Roman?
Yes.
Minister.
Yes.
And do you then go on and finish this PhD?
Nick Ross: No.
cause because, the, with with, somebody called Donna, it's a, it's
very largely her, her, her achievements.
So I helped her a bit, found a huge archive and, and
when we made that, Public.
It changed the, the, it changed the rule.
It changed the game really because the, the whole idea of a PhD is to find
something that nobody else knows about.
Certainly for, for a British PhD, cuz it has to be a real
contribution to knowledge.
So, it's not, it's a, and and the trouble was that others, other
academics, much greater figures than me were taking an interest in
the same field and then publishing.
And that what that would do is it would take a large body of my research
and turn it not from being a chapter in my PhD to being a footnote.
Okay.
Because I, I would effectively be a footnote to somebody else's
research as opposed to You were ga
Rupert Isaacson: basically.
Yeah.
Okay.
And how, how far into your PhD was, was this?
Three years.
So again, that moment of despair probably.
Nick Ross: Oh, yeah.
But, but yes.
And the thing is that if Donatella could read, could read Latin, like, reading
the, the Times, you know, she, she, and she was a friend of me, I presume.
Yeah.
And, the most remarkable, remarkable mind.
And so, and, and I, and I wasn't good enough.
Quite simply, I, my Latin, my Italian wasn't good enough.
And I would never, I would never, you know, it was pointed out to me by a
very nice guy at the British Museum that in the nicest possible ways,
he said, he said, Nick, you, you're not, you're just not good enough.
You're not bright enough.
and you will never keep up.
And he was absolutely right.
But there
Rupert Isaacson: are lots of people out there getting PhDs
who don't speak fluent Latin.
So he, he, he meant just in this
Nick Ross: field that, yeah, that what I needed was, was to be able
to really pretty, pretty tricky documents really, really quickly.
Okay.
And I couldn't do it.
Rupert Isaacson: So at that point, do you give up.
Nick Ross: Sorry, at that point.
At that point, do you give up?
Yeah.
And but, but, but also by that stage, I'd been teaching for Aha
for a couple of years because I was, I was doing my research and I
needed money, so I taught for a hha.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So how did you discover a HHA artist?
Nick Ross: a friend mentioned it, I can't remember who mentioned it.
And then put me in touch with Sarah Carum, who was the original founder with
Robert Woodward, who he mentioned earlier.
Yeah.
And a guy called Rodney Portman.
Okay.
And, and the, the, there was another partner, but they, they kind of ran
it and they ran one course a year.
And, and I was teaching on that.
And then I did some lecturing around schools, drumming up trade
while doing my own research.
And, and, and it was a sort of more or less balanced life and, and, And
then I, I really began to enjoy being a generalist, as opposed to a specialist.
And that's what the, and then when somebody said, actually, you're not clever
enough to be a specialist, I thought, well, actually stuff being a specialist,
I'm really enjoying being a generalist.
I want to know about everything.
That's
Rupert Isaacson: a very positive, way to look at it.
In retrospect, at the time, did you wanna chuck yourself off a bridge or think shit?
You know, I'm here I am again, starting again.
Here I am three years into a PhD.
I've spent all this money, I've, you know, I, I, I've got to, you know,
and now I've got to be a generalist.
What is this?
You know, I mean, there must be,
Nick Ross: okay, so I'm sure in that little period after lunch at about three
o'clock, In most people's lives, there is a point at which you think to yourself,
why, why on earth am I doing this?
Yeah.
And and, and and I was having lots of three o'clock moments
thinking, what am I, what am I doing?
Sitting in the North Library at the British Museum trying to catalog drawings.
So I, there aren't really very interesting.
Some of them are fascinating, but quite a lot of the time it's rather hard work.
Yeah.
And, and, and I thought nobody, you know, I'm not going to, I'm
not, I'm not gonna solve cancer.
I'm not going to, you know, I, me and about six other people are really
interested in this and that's it.
Right.
And it's not gonna change the world.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I'm not gonna bring major joy to millions of people this way.
Nick Ross: No, no.
Or, or solve anything.
So, so do it.
Sounds dramatic to give it up after three years.
But, but I really enjoyed the three years.
I learned a hell of a lot, I learned a lot about how to
research and things like that.
There's lots of pluses.
I just didn't come away with a doctorate.
Rupert Isaacson: So at what point do you flip from there to
full-time and then to running?
Aha.
Nick Ross: So, so then, then, Robert and Sarah Kagan asked me
if I'd be a director at a hha.
And I said, great.
And I put a little bit of money in and, then quite soon we went bust and I don't
think it was me, but it, there was, there was a snap procession, I don't
know if you remember early nineties.
Yeah.
And Norman Lamont and Yes, I do remember that.
Or that whole business about,
Rupert Isaacson: that's right.
When we all came out of university and there were no jobs.
Yeah, yeah,
Nick Ross: yeah, yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And, and that happened.
So a HHA ran outta students.
Got it.
We were effectively bused.
And the only way out of it was for Sarah and me to go uns salaried for
a year, or, you know, in perpetuity.
We had no idea how long it would last.
And the, and quite by chance, a publishing house called Studio Editions
asked if I'd write a book on Canto.
And I wrote back and I said, well, I dunno very much about him, but, and they
said, we actually, we don't really care.
All we need is 32,000 words in six weeks.
Could you do it?
And and I did, and it was about the only thing I've ever done on time.
And, they were so impressed.
They gave me lots of other things to write, which I couldn't fit in.
So, Sarah wrote some of them and then Tom Parsons wrote others.
and that kept you afloat and that, and that sort of, we turned
it into this writing machine.
And, We weren't working closely together, but, but I, I think between
the three or four of us, we produced, I dunno, 8, 9, 10 books, in a year.
Rupert Isaacson: So the universe came in just when you were thinking, okay,
here's this un unlikely way to make a living, which is taking people on the
17th Century Grand tour and opening their brains and minds and spirits
up to the arts and the metaphysics of the Renaissance and classical period.
And then everything goes bust.
And then the universe says, well, but how about becoming a writing
machine for this same thing out of the blue in the middle of a recession?
That's very interesting.
Oh, and by the way, here's so much of this work that you can't even cope with
it, that you're gonna have to give it to all your mates to keep them afloat too.
Yeah.
Nick Ross: And then we are all get, and then we Yeah.
No, the the, it's a good odd universe.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: but I mean, if, if that's not, if that's not providence
at work, I don't know what is.
And if that's not.
Fortune favoring the brave, I dunno what is, because, again, just back to
that thing, the listeners, you know, that's the whole point really of this,
of this podcast is, those of us who were brought up like me, with lots
of different passions and interests, constantly being told you're never
gonna make a living doing that.
And that's all I've ever done is making a living doing those things.
I love these stories when it, it's those things where you say, out of
the blue came this series of book contracts because I mean, getting a
book contract, we know getting a book contract is a dash difficult thing to do.
It's not an easy thing.
You don't just go around getting book contracts.
I'm a, I've been a writer for decades and I don't just go around getting book pump
contracts every time I have to get one.
I have to get one from scratch.
It's a whole process.
I might not get one.
Not every idea that I have gets accepted, even though I've written bestsellers.
It's just not like that.
It's, you know, it's a business like any other.
And, So for that to drop out of Providence, like
that is interesting to me.
So clearly you guys had made some sort of leap of faith.
So in the meantime, you continue to run the business
while then writing these books.
Is that right?
And yeah.
Nick Ross: Yeah.
And then, and then at, at some point we try and sell the business,
but it, it's got no assets.
It's got, it's only got goodwill.
And so the accountants said, look, there's enough room for one of you
to do it, but, but it will, you know, so, so Sarah who had been at the
beginning, was offered and she, she said that she didn't want to run it.
And I said, well, if nobody else wants to run it, I'll give it a go.
I had no, no children, no girlfriend, no wife, no responsibilities.
So I thought, well, let's, let's just give it a try.
I seem to
Rupert Isaacson: remember actually this jogs a memory that you were
sleeping in a corridor at this point.
Nick Ross: Yeah, no, I, I then, I then moved to live with my
brother in Devon in the corridor.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, that's right.
I remember the corridor.
Nick Ross: Yep.
Yeah.
And the, the, the desk a few places.
Yeah.
And the desk was, by a sheet pen in one of his bands.
So quite often if I was on the blower on the phone, you know, you had the,
the, the, the barring of sheep in the background and stuff like that.
Not, not unlike dog now.
Yeah.
Really,
Rupert Isaacson: really, it's bucolic.
you could sort of a po sound like, aesthetic to the, to the thing.
Yeah.
Just a little church bell in the distance perhaps.
at what point did it start working
Nick Ross: for you?
Ooh.
Rupert Isaacson: and how, how did you get it to start working?
Nick Ross: Oh, well, I think, I think, we diversified.
It started looking at schools, doing school strips.
To be honest, we, I didn't have any money for advertising or marketing.
So the, the only thing,
Rupert Isaacson: and this is all pre-social media, right?
Oh yeah,
Nick Ross: yeah.
And and, so we thought, we thought the only thing to do is to, or
I thought, just run everything.
So I even one trip, I remember a family, it was a trip that was
advertised to go to, Florence, and there was only one couple who signed up.
And, so I said, I rang them about two weeks before and I said, look, I'm
really sorry, but it's only you and me.
I'll, I'll give you your money back, you know, it's fine.
And they said, no, no, we're sharing a bed.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Anyway, they said, that's fine, that's great.
In fact, we'd much prefer it that way anyway, it turned out
that they were, really very significant, manufacturers in Europe.
and, from a huge family.
And, and I have quite simply lost count of the hun, how many hundreds of
thousands of pounds of trade over the last 30 years we've had through them.
I, in fact, one of their grandchildren or great grandchildren
I took on a trip only last week.
so, so, again, you know, universe, whatever you like, you know, just,
just plays into your hands sometimes.
And, I didn't wanna let them down.
and they didn't, and they wanted to do something exclusive, and they got it.
And, and yet it turned into a, a really big story in the end.
And I think your, your, your overall point is that history is a series of paradox.
is, is, the, the, the, the, the, the, the trouble with life is that we tend
to try and make things neat and tidy.
And, and also the problem with text is that, and that's why I haven't, I've
haven't written anything for a long time, is that text is inevitably sequential.
Music fortunately is less sequential.
Our thoughts are certainly not sequential.
We tend to think of several things all at the same time.
And, and we feel several things all at the same time.
And the problem with text is that it means that everything has to be laid
out in an orderly way, but, but actually the way life works, the way we operate
isn't in straight lines and doesn't one and one thing doesn't follow another.
It's a series of threads jumbled up in a, in a sort of rather, delicious mess.
And that's half the fun.
That's, that's the point.
and, and I don't think a usual academic training of arranging everything into
logical lines is necessarily very helpful.
It's just a, an effective way of teaching.
But actually, if you are going to be in the position of managing, events
around you or people, or marshaling, others to try and go forward, the
best way to do it is in a mess.
Because that's the way we all think to, to
Rupert Isaacson: find your order through
Nick Ross: chaos.
Yes.
So when, if I give somebody responsibility, I don't, I want, I want,
I, I'm quite happy with it being messy.
Do you see what I mean?
I, because, because that is a sort of a reflection of
the way we all behave anyway.
I don't want somebody, because it's imagination comes out of mess outta chaos.
Primal chaos doesn't come outta,
Rupert Isaacson: you know, I'm just thinking, you know.
Here you are.
why would one want to send one's young people out on a journey apart
from the educational aspect of it through, for example, your company.
What life lessons are they going to learn?
But I, I think that that's exactly it.
And I think that that's what people were aiming for 300 years ago on the
grand tour too, was to understand the complexities of life, understand
the ambivalences of life, understand that things are not black and white.
Understand that things are paradoxical and how to become comfortable with discomfort
and can you find ordering chaos?
Can you find, entertaining chaos when there's too much order?
Can you dance that dance in between?
And that dance of life is quality of life and the difference between
mere survival and thriving.
Yeah.
and that's what producers culture, that's what producers are.
That's what, you know, when you, when you said, well, you know, I had to give up
the PhD, but what's the point of being a specialist in something that isn't going
to really positively affect the lives of.
Many, but to go out and get those sorts of life lessons.
And I know that some of the people who have gone on your trips over
the years have ended up in public office and as you know, captains
of industry and that sort of thing.
And I would want those people cuz they affect my life to have some
sort of humanistic perspective.
and this idea of the humanities is something which you go
and study academically.
I don't think you can, you, you, you can say, well that piece of art is called
that anymore than you can learn history by saying Battle of cause in 1415.
Well, okay, but why was it and what did it mean?
Was it just some sort of trade skirmish or did it actually affect.
You know, the way we think about things right now is that why we've
remembered it and we didn't remember the one that happened the week
before, which, which got forgotten.
Someone has to open one's eyes to this.
Nick Ross: Yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, Nick It seems to me, from my experience with AHA,
that I experienced a great sense of freedom when I attended the course, and
I Heard this from the other people on the course, and I've been hearing this
ever since, and it's counterintuitive.
You wouldn't have thought it's paradoxical again.
We talked about paradox, that going to see art and experiencing
art in this way gives one freedom.
You'd think freedom is walking in the mountains or flying an airplane or riding
a horse or something, but yet there seems to be a freedom that gets unlocked.
In the human imagination, which is our greatest freedom through the
physical journeys, through the art.
And I just wondered if you could speak to that a little bit.
What have you noticed?
What have you, how has this happened for you?
And then how have you, what made you then think, Oh yeah, I could, I could,
I could give this to other people.
Because it's, it's not something that people would normally
think of as a route to freedom.
Nick Ross: Interesting.
Okay.
So, so yes if you, if you take, take the point that, you know, what we do
at Art History Abroad usually happens after people have finished one big
section of their formal education.
So they're 18 or 19, all of which is about doing the intellectual
gymnastics, in order to pole vault through examinations to matriculate
and, and get onto university.
We have an opportunity which is to run a course which is essentially
educational, but it has no reading list, it has no essays, it has no marking,
it has no examination at the end of it.
It is learning quite simply for the love of learning.
Now, of course, I can't, in a way, I can't really say that on a website because
people would never buy our courses.
Because it's, you know, that sounds a little bit watery, let's say.
But to me, it's a very real thing.
And I think it is for anybody who's experienced teaching in that way and
being at the receiving end of it.
And the reason I think it's so is that the very, the very point about being
on site is an all round experience.
You're getting there.
You're seeing things in life size as opposed to on a tiny image on a phone.
There are the smells, there's the sound, there's the stepping around other
people who may be praying in a church trying to do things to avoid mass.
And all of those things.
So you are super aware of everybody else and your
environment when you're doing this.
And then you get in front of the thing that you've, the, the, the,
the, the quest you get there.
And at that point, it's can be thrilling, especially if it's a really well known
thing that people have heard about.
And, and so to finally get there to the end of it is, as I say, it's thrilling.
It's really exciting.
People get really excited, burst into tears every so often, but
oddly enough, people cry more in Rome than anywhere else.
But, but that, that that, that I think is because it's a uniquely emotional
place for so many reasons, but.
But it's partly quest and you get there and it's thrilling.
It's really exciting to be in that space.
And then if as a teaching experience and learning experience, it's not
all about the delivery of didactic information of being told the dates
of when it was done and all of that.
All of that can be fed in.
at different points.
But it's not as if you start there.
It's a case of, well, where's the best place to be looking at this from?
How, actually, how big it is?
It says here that it should be so big.
Is it that big?
Or, you know, pacing out a building looking at it from different angles.
If it's a picture that, let's say, should be seen from a devotional kneeling point.
And so often that's the case that you know, if I know there's a, there's
a wonderful painting by Pontormo in Santa Felicità in Florence, and
it's, and it's one of the weirdest.
paintings in the 16th century in Italy and people either love it or hate it.
It's the great marmite painting because it has really lurid colors and and we
do I think I think Humans and society go through phases of favoring certain
colors point and and actually funnily enough this Pontormo Really offended
people because it's lilacs and it's light pinks and, and in the 80s,
early 80s, nobody liked those colors.
Everything was primary colors, and it was really interesting.
Gladioli as a flower became the, you know, the sort of demonic plant.
You know, there were things that people wouldn't put in their
garden because of the color.
Sorry, I'm off on one there.
But, but, but the Pontomo's deposition usually puts people off.
It's in a private chapel to a family called Capone.
And so it's behind a grill.
And just every so often the sacristan is there and, and they'll let you
go in and they'll unlock it for you.
And it's great because then you can kneel down in front of the altar.
And at that point the painting suddenly makes sense, the composition
of it and all of the rest.
And it's essentially about the absolute tragedy of somebody
so young and so marvelous as Christ dying and being killed.
And they're literally being put on your head and you're you know, given to
you the way the painting is composed, and it's all in the colors as well.
And, and what you're doing is you're kneeling on the plate that is lifted to
get to the crypt underneath the chapel where all of your ancestors are buried.
So Christ in his death is being passed to you and you're thinking this is
awful How much did he suffer to make a fundamental point about love to all of
the rest of us and and And I'm remembering his death, and I'm thinking about the
death of my dearly beloved on this spot.
So the moment you get into that place, everything makes sense.
And it's a, it's, it's a spiritual, emotional, visual, auditory the sense
that you smell the, you know, you can hear, you can, you can smell the whiff
of, incense from the morning's mass, all of those things come together.
And you say liberating.
Well, if what it's doing is just it is an explosion of realization,
emotion and sensory invasion, which is just overwhelming.
It's, it's, it's absolutely wonderful.
And so that's why Information with, with things, you know, that after
all of that, once, once people said, Oh my God, now I get it.
I really understand this.
Then you can say, Oh, and by the way, it was, you know, 1525 and people
call this Manor Est and, and there's things that are wrong with that term.
So you can then talk about language and how we academically or, or, or
culturally have organized things and the rights and wrongs of that.
But the main thing is to get across the emotional, the
emotional aspects of it first.
And you, and there are loads of places that you can really do that.
Of course, museums and galleries are, are a problem because it's
one thing after the next on a wall.
And, and it's, and you end up having to describe where it was in order to
try and get, to summon the muse in order to get people to that place.
But the great advantage of things, seeing things on site.
Is that you don't have to summon that muse, which depends on one's
ability to describe it's there and it's evident and it's real.
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting you talk about quest.
And it seems that, you know, we know that the hero's journey, the
universal story is always quest.
And we know that we are the speaking ape.
They say we're the thinking ape, Homo sapiens sapiens, but everything
with the brain thinks, but we're the only ones with the larynx.
We speak, we create poetry, we have language in that way.
And healing and story, you know, the shamanic healing process, you
go to the shaman with your story.
They go into the spirit world, get a series of instructions,
it's effectively a story.
Come back, give you a story, and then a new story is created.
But it's the same when you go to the doctor.
He's always my leg.
It's a story.
The doctor delves into their knowledge.
Oh, leg stuff comes out with another story.
Creates a new story for your leg.
Hunting and gathering is who we are.
And story is a way of organizing that.
And it seems that really hearing you speak, you're, this is
the again, back to paradox.
You think something as heavily cultural as art and architecture would be so far
removed from hunting and gathering that it would be artificial in the brain and
an artificial experience and therefore of limited use to Say our neuroscience,
which would develop through our hunter gatherer ancestry, but hearing you speak
about that aspect of quest and then the sensual experience, not just the smell
of the incense and the kneeling and the looking up at the thing, but also, as you
say, to get there, you had to get there, you have to hunt, you have to arrive, you
have to take a journey, which is a story, it just in order to get to that place.
And then, of course, you've got to do it in, you're doing it in a group.
As you would when you hunt or gather, and now you're hunting and gathering
experience and information together and sharing this, what from a neuroscience
point of view immediately springs into my mind there is Oh, axons and dendrites.
So, the axons being the main stems and branches of the brain cells that are
reaching out to try and make synaptic connections with other brain cells that
we do this all the time until we die.
Otherwise our brains atrophy and then the dendrites being the twigs that.
Or like the root system that then makes contact with the other root systems
and then myelination the fusing of those neural pathways happens that this
seems to be how our brains are wired.
And then you talked about question and people bursting into tears.
Then I'm thinking, Oh, that's dopamine.
And that's the endorphins kicking in of having made the physical
journey to get there of the exercise.
And then the serotonin of the group connection.
And the shared experience and the oxytocin of the feeling
of emotional shared support.
All of those happy hormones, those are the four happy ones coming
together in that one moment.
What could in a strange way be more natural for the brain, but
one wouldn't necessarily know that.
When one looks at the words art history together one thing I have
a real, I have a question for you.
When we were young, 5, 000 years ago, when mastodon still bellowed to
mastodon across the primeval swamp.
You and I were coming out of you, Nick and me were coming out of a
world that was pre cell phones.
And to some degree, pre computers.
When we were at university, we didn't use them.
We wrote everything longhand and we and.
The people that were on say gap years going around and having these experiences
that you're talking about traveling and exploring were coming with brains
that were more naturally prepared.
This seems to me to have changed.
Have you noticed a difference in the type of brain that's coming
in front of you on these trips?
And if so, how are those brains impacted by the experiences that?
your courses provide?
Nick Ross: Okay.
So, so how, how did they arrive?
I, I
okay.
So on the, on the one, on the one hand, it's, it's very easy to take a pop at
the internet and, and the digital age.
And, and I'm, I'm, I'm guilty of probably thinking like as many, many
people in older people might, which is that, you know, the, the, the last
generation the upcoming generation, they're, you know, they're, they're
somehow different and something is lost from the experience before.
And on the one hand, I think that it is marvelous that you can find information
really quickly, you know, all of those that, you know, that capacity to have
an idea to have a question a query, and then find an answer almost immediately.
Is is brilliant.
It's and that is a really good building block.
You know, that's that's that's really exciting.
Or, you know how to do something, you know, you know, you
introduce a student to an idea.
Or a book and they can go off and find it.
They can go off and find that film that you think, oh, that's really relevant.
You'll really enjoy this.
And you don't have to wait two months to go and see it.
It's there.
You can watch it this evening.
So all of those sorts of things are really big and positive and good.
The only, the only thing that I find Is the sort of impatience that, that
because you can get things very, very quickly, you assume everything
will arrive very, very quickly.
And I find myself becoming unbelievably impatient and and therefore sort
of rather irritated with myself.
And, and I think the I think the, and also the collective experience.
You sort of touched on that a moment ago, of, of traveling and, and being together
and sort of, I do remember actually once our good friend Tom caught me doing
this in Verona once, I deliberately made ourselves late for a train because I
felt that the course, the group, weren't working very well as a, as a whole.
That's interesting.
And and And we were in Verona.
We didn't have bags with us, so it was just a day trip, but, but I suddenly said,
oh my God, we've got seven minutes to be on a train, and we've got three quarters
of a kilometer to run to get to the train.
And and we, we all got there, everybody helping each other, you know, and it
was you know, pulling each other on the train as the train then pulled out and
stuff, and then we all collapsed in the carriage hot, sweaty, and exhausted.
But...
All of a sudden, a group of people, and Tom, I remember him
looking at me and saying, you, you, that was deliberate, wasn't it?
And, and I, I, you know, to this day, I'm not sure if it was just me being
half witted, or, or whether there was a little bit of me that wanted
to create that sense of, of for all.
Okay, so, so the, the, the business of collectively doing
things together is, has gone.
I think it's interesting that, that personal sports have really taken off.
In the sense that, you know, when I was younger, it was all
team sports, everything was about being in part of a team.
And now it's about actually a lot of sports, and the most popular
and taken up sports, I think in Britain at the moment is jiu jitsu.
And more people are taking up that than than than other team sports.
because they're all individuals as opposed to groups of people taking up sport.
Anyway, again, I, I slightly digress, but, but if I'm looking for differences
and therefore things that, the, the very nature of AHA and traveling
and having quite a lot of autonomy.
So I'm really keen that when we set up a course, we can do all sorts of things.
To make it wonderful and lay out a program of great events and things like that.
But I'm really, really it's very important to me that the tutors can, can wake up
one morning and say, do you know what?
It's an absolutely fantastic day out there.
I think we should do this.
Or, you know, we can go and do that.
Or why don't we go and watch football?
Or that there's all sorts of things that, that, that make the trip.
Both an adventure for them, but crucially that the tour, the course
is an individual course, an individual adventure for those students.
And it's not the same as the last one.
It's their course.
It was their history.
And it was their experience, not a a usual one.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, go ahead.
I've got a question that will follow, but go ahead.
Nick Ross: And then, and then, then in terms of, of.
I often talk to students at the beginning of the course about the
senses and using up the senses.
I know just a moment ago I was talking about the Pontormo deposition
and I possibly sounded like somebody who either understands
or believes in the resurrection.
I don't, I don't really, there's lots of things that I like and approve
of, but, but I don't quite get the resurrection but I suppose that's
life's great passage, but, but what I am keen on in a spiritual sense, if
I've got a spiritual center, it's that I really want to use up the things that
I was given, and those are my senses.
When I, I don't know to what extent being paralyzed when I was a teenager
from the neck down had any, any, any input on this, but I am absolutely
determined to use up all my senses.
And I've been lucky enough to do what I've done, whereby my visual,
visual acuity is really pretty acute.
And, and I noticed things, I see things, I, I've got a great.
maturity in my sight, if you like, of recognition and things.
I'm a bit pissed off about my hearing.
I, you know, I can hear all right, but I, I haven't explored sound enough.
And I really want to explore sound.
I was quite worried about my nose.
a while ago.
I used to smoke.
I loved smoking.
God, I love smoking.
But, but I stopped smoking.
And and so I started to scent and smell much better.
Not me personally, but the act of smelling.
So, so I, I actually spent some time going to perfumiers
and asking, how do you smell?
What do you do?
How do you register?
What actually happens in the nose?
And now I'm, I'm I'm a real sniff stop snob.
I go, you know, I can spot a synthetic smell really easily.
I'm really aware of what I'm walking past.
Touch, feeling, I lost all of that, but, but what I've got,
I've really enjoyed exercising.
Taste, I've loved food all the way along, but what I want to do is get
to my deathbed and I'll be pissed off if I get run over by a bus and I
haven't finished using up all of my senses, because that is, to be honest,
the only way I can say thank you.
If I've truly.
wholly used myself up.
I've loved as much as I possibly can.
I've appreciated all of those things.
I've appreciated what my, my connection to the rest of the world, if I can
do all of that completely at that point, rather like a finished plate at
supper, I can say, you know, thank you.
That's, that's it.
And I'm out, but I've really enjoyed it and I've made the absolute most of it.
Because I've been lucky enough to be able to do that.
And so I have, I, I tend to use Biros, pens, pencils, I
tend to use them up completely.
I'm really irritated if I lose a pen, which is only half finished.
My pencils, I've got two or three, I've, I've I gave one to Cosmo the other day.
My pencils become unbelievably small until I can't use them anymore, and then I
actually tend to keep them because they're memories, and it's slightly pathetic.
But anyway, the, the, the point is to use oneself up.
And if I can, if we can, as a, as a group, impart that sense of, of, of appreciation,
understanding, use of the senses to our students, not only is it liberating
in a way that I was kind of describing earlier on with the Pontormo, but it's
kind of an antidote to the digital world.
Or it's a supplement to the digital world.
You know, there is no way that people should and could live going
forward without the digital world.
It's here.
But what we've got to do is to kind of learn how to do both.
And if, if it can be a journey in one's own development as well.
And, and as a, to a point, trying to find some purpose in all of it, using oneself
up isn't a bad one, as far as I can see.
Rupert Isaacson: It seems to me that what you're talking about
is teaching people how to live.
Because to, to explore, to learn, for the love of learning, to encourage
the love of learning that's one part.
And so often, in our culture, we celebrate the intellectual.
Or we celebrate the spiritual and because of the church and whatever
that we inherited, that morality, we denigrate the senses, we denigrate
the sensual, even though we spend our entire lives trying to gratify our
senses, but we feel guilty about it.
And we're told we should feel guilty about it.
And it's this really interesting point that you're making about the senses
that as someone who was deprived of your senses for a while in a way that
I think few people have experienced to then really see their value.
And then.
That there is no separation, of course, how could there be,
between your spirit and your mind, your intellect and your senses.
And to make that separation perhaps also induces a type of dementia
that's pre digital that some of our ancestors might have felt.
So, just stay with me here.
So, for example, I have a great friend who we did a A podcast with Jane Pike a while
ago who works very much with the nervous system and she delved for years and
years, like decades into deep, deep yoga and was a yogini to the point that she's
been flown all over the world, giving courses and so on and studied in India.
And she said the problem with it for her in the end was that there was
too much in the philosophy of it that was about using this practice through
the body to leave the body behind.
And only go to the spiritual as if the body was something bad or wrong in
just the same way that, you know, we've done that with Christianity and so on.
But really, that's just seems to be a way of controlling people.
And she said that it seemed at a certain point that what then happened
was her body began to shut down.
And she said a lot of people she knew had this experience that they took the yoga
to an extreme where instead of serving the body, it began to work against it
for interesting reasons that people could go back to that which surprised me, but
she said, no, this actually does happen.
You're talking about the senses that as being part of the
whole and having been deprived.
You know, we think about sensory deprivation, you know, if you go
into a room where you can't see, or you deliberately put on a blindfold
so that you're, you can hear better or, and people are now seeing the
value of doing that sort of thing.
I've noticed that on your.
Courses, you're absolutely right.
You expose people to taste, you expose people to smell, you expose people to the
touch of the stone, you and not just the touch of the stone on your hand, but the
touch of the stone on your knees or to lie in a position on the stone to look
up at a certain painting or something that all of that is going to again,
bring us back to the sort of hunter gatherer route of pure functionality
within the human brain and body.
Which is sort of our original blueprint, whether it's done by going to a place to
look at a piece of art and architecture, whether it's by going through a forest
to look at a deer the same process seems to happen in the brain and where
I was asking about a digital dementia.
That seems to be the catchphrase now.
You're talking about the senses made me realize that perhaps
there's been a dementia of trying to divorce people from the senses
that's caused such unhappiness and.
Suffering in people that it's made us do things like invent the Spanish
Inquisition and you know, the Holocaust.
A lot of that seems to come out of the suppression of passion and the
suppression of the census to the point that people become so angry
that you can then control that anger.
And I'm going to make you go and commit these atrocities.
You could argue that that's to some degree what's going on
in Putin's Russia right now.
But I hadn't thought about it like that until you made those points.
So, when I asked you, have you noticed a digital dementia in the new generation
coming, when you said, ah, well, maybe a bit, but there's all these other
good things about the digital age, I hadn't, until you began to talk about
the sensors, I hadn't put together that perhaps there was another dementia,
which we've suffered from for a much longer period of time, pre digital.
And so
as you were talking to it made me think the word came up in my mind pilgrimage.
Is that really what you're doing?
Nick Ross: Yeah, I think it's really it's that's fascinating.
Okay, so, so, Occasionally when, when people hear about what we do
with teenagers, they, they say, ah, it sounds like a modern grand tour.
You know, the 18th century idea of largely Englishmen and, and quite a
lot of Frenchmen going off on, and Germans as well, and Goethe did it as,
you know, you go off and you travel and, and quite often the quest was to
Italy because of Rome and Roman empire.
And, the church and so on.
And and so, yes, that was one sort of pilgrimage.
And, and interestingly, it's done at a stage where young
people have become independent.
They're physically and emotionally independent enough and sexually
mature and all of those sorts of things to be able to go off.
And, and and explore for themselves.
The same happens with Aborigines, I, I think.
I remember reading Bruce Chatwin's songlines and being very, very impressed
by that as a, in my twenties, and thinking at the time that's, you know, what he's
kind of describing is not unlike the modern gap year or, or, or pilgrimage.
In the Middle Ages and, and it's about setting off on a journey and experiencing
all sorts of things as you go along, and, and in a way, having an opportunity
to, to try oneself out, because after all, until you're about 18, in the
main, you're told what to do, what to eat, where to sleep, and all of those
sorts of things, and all of a sudden, you can actually go and just work it
out yourself, and, and and it's both an opportunity, but it's also a test of
oneself, you know, can I actually do this?
And I do remember feeling that very strongly when I was 18, leaving,
leaving home and going to live in London, I was determined not to use
connections or any other friends.
So, you know, to find my own flat, to find my own job, to find my own.
stuff just to find out whether actually as a person, I could work.
I do work, you know, not just work in a functional sense, but operate
socially and all of the rest.
And so, yeah, it's a pilgrimage that I, I think is part of the same thing, you
know, gap years, walkabout, Spartans going off and testing themselves, you
know, young, young boys and all of that.
I think it's part of the same thing, and yeah, and it's a, it's a pretty important
part of development for one and all.
Rupert Isaacson: The rite of passage.
Nick Ross: Yeah, yes.
I suppose rite of passage comes with...
with some tremendous challenge, you know, the, you know, the, you
know, mortal challenge that, that you overcome some mortal difficulty.
I don't think one needs to overcome a mortal difficulty.
I do see it as a more sort of positive thing of learning to appreciate yourself
and your senses, you know, there's the whole thing of love oneself.
I've never completely fallen for that idea, but, but learning to
use what you've got in an external way is, is is a really good thing.
And that's, and that's a very good connector to other
people and so on and so forth.
So, so the idea of mortal challenge, I personally would leave to one side.
But, but setting out to try oneself out socially and physically and sensually
is, is a really good antidote to formal education and, and particularly as
one sets out into, into a world or university where you hopefully will
be invited to think for yourself.
and create for yourself.
And I think that's possibly what makes successful people within
within the workplace or for the, if they, if they don't want to work
for anybody else, certainly to have the creative confidence to have a,
to have a go and do your own thing.
One's own thing.
Rupert Isaacson: Do one's own thing.
I mean, that's live free, ride free.
Where do you want?
AHA to go.
What's next for you?
Nick Ross: What's next?
It, it was, you know, Art History Abroad as a, as a title, you know, the one thing
is that I quite enjoy is that what you start off with as a plan quite often
doesn't end up being the way it goes.
And, and the more fun thing is just to kind of let it go where people
and, and, and circumstances lead.
And, and like all, like any organisation, it's so much a part of.
the people who were there with you and those you meet along
the way, and changing ideas.
And so, so Art History Abroad, it was quite specifically not identified
either to me or to Italy and And so, it can go anywhere, and I would
quite like it to go everywhere.
I would quite like to see it not only in Europe, but also in India,
Japan and, and in South America.
In fact, anywhere, anywhere.
You know, I think, I think it's applicable elsewhere.
So that's one thing, geographic and, and an intellectual spread.
Art also, I think, as a term, you know, what is art?
That's always been in the background.
I think, I think art itself is a, is a floppy term and I quite
enjoy it for being loose like that.
I'd also quite like to change the parameters or encourage the parameters
of what we do and what we think about and the way we approach things.
I know, I remember, It's probably about 10 12 years ago, you and I talking about
the nature of, of, of what we talked together in Florence, and, and that
it's, it's, it's, it's all kinetic and auditory and aural all at the same time.
Now, what we were fumbling with then, is what you've now developed
into a much more articulate description of axons and dendrites.
Dendrites, yeah.
Dendrites.
And, and I'm interested in developing that because that, that chimes with my
belief structure about using oneself up.
It chimes with.
the idea of, of the nature of education being about liberation
as opposed to structure.
And stricture.
So, so that is a development.
I think would be really interesting.
So both geographic, but also because I don't know about you, but I find teaching
and enormously emotional experience.
And and for that reason, actually, I very, very rarely ever go and watch.
Any of our tutors simply because, you know, I know standard practice is go
and review people and check that they're doing what they're supposed to be doing.
In my view, I don't need to do that.
I don't want to do that.
The way I prefer to do it is to teach the same students maybe
the next day so I can look at.
their development or I can look at the, the the teaching capacity of
the tutor I'm interested in by their reflection, by looking at them directly.
After all, the only important thing is what ends up in the student.
So look at the student, don't look at the person who's doing the teaching.
Apart from anything else, it's embarrassing watching people teach,
or I, you know, I know that I slightly become somebody else when
I'm teaching, and when I'm off on one, I am altogether some somebody else.
And, and so I'd rather not pry on anybody's personality in
that way, I'd rather just let them be what they want to be.
So the, the, the, the, the experience of teaching I think is hugely emotional.
I think, you know, obviously it's different if you're in a classroom.
And I think I, I am lost in admiration for.
people who are teaching within schools, where there are people who
don't want necessarily to be there, they're tied to a desk or they're in
an environment that's unsympathetic or whatever, that is hugely difficult.
And, and before somebody can actually deliver meaningful
knowledge and inspiration.
They've got to get over all of these hurdles.
I'm in an amazingly, and with my tutors and the people who work for AHA,
amazingly privileged position to be able to walk out of the door and walk
somewhere else and say, Hey, look at this.
This is wonderful.
And it's privileged in economically and, and physically.
And so, so I, you know, my, my, I, I frame my view within that, you
know, teaching is a very big word.
It refers to a lot of people in a lot of different circumstances.
But the bit that we're able to do is, is hugely emotional, liberating for both the
person teaching and, and the recipient.
And I think I've already forgotten the actual question that you asked me.
Well,
Rupert Isaacson: you, you actually just answered it, emotional liberation.
I mean, and, and emotional liberation, because, you know,
the intellect serves the emotions, the emotion serves the intellect.
To take that to as wide a context as possible, it's funny you use
the word abroad, because you know the word abroad semantically simply
means out and about, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean overseas.
And just so listeners know not everything that AHA does is overseas,
a lot of what you do is also local.
To go abroad can mean to walk around one's village.
One is abroad, you know, the other word I love is the old Norman
hunting expression of enlarged.
The stag is enlarged, you know, he's got out, he's left the ticket is
all it means, but it's, it's, he's broken cover, but it's interesting
how words take on certain meanings.
And one of the things I've, some of the best experiences I've had with you
as a teacher, I think have been when you've shown me something really local.
The other day we were, I was lucky enough to be in for the listeners
in, in Nick's Village with my kids.
And there happens to be a very, very beautiful piece of medieval architecture
in there, which isn't the church.
It's the thing next to the church, which is this half timbered building.
Okay, one sees a lot of half timbered buildings, they're always charming,
they always have a nice aesthetic.
But this particular one had a set of carvings in the In the
half timbers of a detail that I've never seen before anywhere.
And I live in a part of Germany that's famous for half timbered villages.
And I didn't see anything like it.
And that was 2 minutes away.
It, that feeling what I'd love to do is.
encourage people always to look for what's close as well as
what's far when one is questing.
You also mentioned something else which I'd like to come back to, but
I want to do this on another podcast.
I want to have you back.
Would you come back?
I've got some questions you mentioned resurrection, you mentioned self
love, and you mentioned pilgrimage.
Pilgrimage got a bit of a thumbs up from you.
Resurrection and self love got question marks from you.
I'd like to...
explore those three concepts self love, resurrection, redemption,
resurrection, and pilgrimage in a wider context looking at it from the
brain point of view, as well as from the physical point of view, would you
be willing to come on and do that?
Yeah, okay.
Because I think logically that's where this conversation would go.
And I think many of us who would listen to something like this
would have those questions.
So what I'm going to do is I'm going to invite the listeners
to send in their questions.
What are your questions to Nick about what he does?
What are your questions about the nature that he's talked about of the censors?
of how the senses, the intellect, and spirituality come together.
What do you think about self love?
What do you think about pilgrimage?
What do you think about resurrection?
Even if those are just questions, especially if those are just questions.
And then let's kick those questions around on round two with Nick.
Before we go, Nick, how do people find you?
How do people book a course with you?
How do people go walk around London with you, let alone Italy?
Or Suffolk?
Or India?
or can they also have conversations with you online?
What are the mechanisms by which people can contact AHA and you?
Nick Ross: Well, the key one, I suppose, is the website is arthistoryabroad.
com.
But that will describe some of the things we do.
But to be honest, it's that whole thing of keeping things simple and direct,
which doesn't necessarily reflect The complexity of other things that we do.
So, there's that, but, but I'll ultimately write either to info at
Art History abroad or better still.
Write to nick@arthistoryabroad.com.
Rupert Isaacson: nick@arthistoryabroad.com.
Nick Ross: Yeah, and that's Nick, NICK.
Okay.
Nick at arthistoryabroad.
com and that, and that'll come through to me.
And, and particularly if anybody is doing such a thing to just reference Rupert on,
on, on the email and then, and then, and then I will leap into an action that is
unfamiliar to many people who write to me.
Anyway, so, so no, I enjoyed hearing from people.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I, I would, I would encourage Listeners write to Nick, ask
him stuff, font of information.
I have learned so much from you, Nick, over the years
that we've known each other.
Time with you is always time beautifully spent, satisfyingly spent.
The, the, the, the, the, the pleasure of discovery I always
have when I'm in your company is.
Something I cherish.
So thank you so much for sharing that in a wider context here on the podcast and I
look forward to having you back for more.
Thank
Nick Ross: you.
Yeah, happily come back.
Thank you
Rupert Isaacson: very much.
All right.
Till next time.
Bye for now.
Bye bye.
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