Joel Butler

Show Notes

Intro: Jen has achieved nirvana: she looks like a serial killer! Farsightedness, migraines, deep work in therapy, all families need case management, Gina navigates an interpersonal conflict in a way that she wouldn't mind if anyone on Twitter read about it.
Let Me Run This By You: Is Adam McKay turning into Michael Moore? Don't Look Up, The Big Short, 
Interview: We talk to Joel Butler about stage management, Blue Man Group, and the benefits of saying no to the actor's life.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
And Jen Bosworth Ramirez and I'm Gina Pulice . We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? I can see, I can see, which is so brilliant. You know, like that's important. I didn't realize like, oh my God, I can see you. And my glasses are the same glasses that Jeffrey Dahmer has like, and that wasn't an accident.

1 (49s):
I was gonna say, Dwight Schrute, very similar, a similar style. And I got blue blocker and the anti-glare. So like you, can't straight up just see the screens in my eyeballs, you know, that's good. I can see the most important thing. Like I realized I was living like this. And did you have a headache all the time? And the saddest thing happened at the, at the doctor's office. I mean, sorry. I'm rustling. Okay. The saddest thing happens that wasn't really sad, but so my doctor, my ophthalmologist was this lovely woman. She looked like she was about 12. Like literally, she was like the teeniest loveliest woman. Anyway, she was like, have you had headaches your whole life?

1 (1m 32s):
I'm like, yeah, migraines. And she goes, and I said, and she made this face. You can't our listeners can't see it. I said, what? She goes your period. She said your parents should have taken it. You've been, you've been farsighted for your whole life. You're kidding me. And did you ever go to the eye doctor? And I said, no. They always just relied on the school to see if I could see the Blackboard. And I can see far, I can't see close. She said those migraines may have been like 50% glass. You just needed glasses or you

2 (2m 3s):
Raged.

1 (2m 4s):
You know, it's been a lot of rage lately. And a lot of sadness I've been doing a lot of deep work in therapy and the sadness to the neglect it to the level of neglect. Then I, now I'm realizing that I experienced is, is quite something like, I was like, what? And she goes, she goes, how old are you? And I said, 46. And she goes, when did this? I said, I started having migraines at five. She goes, and they never took you to the eye doctor. And she's like, that is so sad. She was like, she could tell in her face, she was like, oh, that's abusive. Like, she was like, what did they give you for your headaches? I'm like nothing because ibuprofen didn't work. She goes, well, of course, it's not going to work.

1 (2m 45s):
If it's an eye problem, it's also not going to work. I'd be profaned. It's not going to hit.

2 (2m 50s):
Okay. I, I, I, I'm not, I really don't mean to make, make this about me. But when you're telling me this story, I'm imagining how I would feel as you. And I asked you if you felt rage. But then I realized the thing that I would be feeling is embarrassed. Like it was my fault. I was neglected. Okay. You didn't have

1 (3m 11s):
No, I don't have that feeling that it was my fault. I was neglected. I have the feeling of, oh, these like, it is rage. And it's like, oh, they should've probably been chastised. If not given like some kind of ticket, you know, like a ticket from the police saying,

2 (3m 27s):
And we need to have tickets for parents. I, I, back that Eve herself. I'd love to be fine. I'd love for somebody to say, oh, you sent in Oreos with lunch. That's a fine, that's a, that's just like a $3 fine, but still don't, don't send it in Oreos with lunch. I mean, I don't ever do that because I don't send in lunch because I pay for lunch. Right. But the idea being we need, I guess the reason I'm being cheeky, but I guess the reason I'm saying is like, everybody needs to be held accountable. And sometimes we need external means of being held accountable.

1 (3m 59s):
You know, I was talking with my therapist and I really, the feeling is like, someone should have stepped in and said, okay, this family needs help. Like you, you need help like you, but here's the thing. Like, we looked so good from the outside. In so many ways, we had an immigrant success story, right. We had a father who wasn't abusive. We had a, in, in physically abusive in any way or sexually, we had a mom who, you know, we had good-looking, you know, my sister was like really, really above average in all ways. So like, it's so hard. And I know, and I think this is what made the movie, this show addressed.

1 (4m 40s):
It's so hard when a package looks a certain way for us, same with serial killers for us to wrap our head around the fact that something very bad is going on. And we don't want to believe it because it looked so pretty or, or didn't look ugly. Let's just say that. And it's it's, it's it? That is the, the feeling that I've had in therapy recently. It's just that I just long for someone rationally, a rational human being, Tufts stepped in and said, okay, this family needs help. Like, how can we help this family? Like, she's not getting eyeglasses, whether it's, you know, a money thing or, or not wanting to spend the money, or if it's just a, like an oversight overwhelmed.

1 (5m 25s):
My mom was totally overwhelmed with my father was underperforming. Like let's get in there and really try to make a care plan. Or like we needed a case manager, you know, and most families do need some kind of case management in, even if it's light, you know,

2 (5m 43s):
All families do. Do they have that in countries where they have socialized medicine? I bet not. I bet that that's a bridge too far, but I mean a school counselor, I guess, theoretically is supposed to do that. But a school counselor has literally hundreds of students in there, and

1 (5m 58s):
They're not worried about worry about a kid that looks well fed. Isn't ha doesn't have bruises and just literally has headaches. Like that's not a real problem.

2 (6m 8s):
Another example of where an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Like imagine literally I don't mean to be a whatever overblown about it, but imagine how different your life might've been.

1 (6m 20s):
Yeah. I mean, I was, I had migraines from five years old. I was barfing and like, no one. And I actually didn't actually go to the doctor for them. Cause I think my mom was like, no, that's not a real problem. Like I never went to the doctor until I was 21 for them. And then they did a brain scan and they, they said, no, your brain is fine. And then they just said, it's hormones, which they always say to women. And no one ever said, maybe you're having you need glasses. This is crazy. It's crazy to me. So I'm, I'm grateful. I have them. They're like, they're like changing my, my world in terms of, yeah. I mean, what the fuck? And I chose on purpose to get like the same thing.

1 (7m 2s):
Jeffrey Dahmer has

2 (7m 4s):
Works for you. It really works for, I dunno, maybe it's having to do with the shape of your face, but it looks, you look stunning, gorgeous, serial killer.

1 (7m 13s):
How are you? Tell me things.

2 (7m 16s):
Okay. I'm pretty good. It's very sunny today, which even though it's 11 degrees, it's,

1 (7m 22s):
We'll take it. We'll take,

2 (7m 23s):
It can do anything in sunshine. I literally could move mountains if it's on the outside the minute there's clouds, right. I guess I'll just stay in my bed and watch TV. Right. So I'm doing okay today. Pretty good today. I realized I was relistening to the skiing story. That's in the episode that airs today. And I forgot to tell you kind of the funniest slash most pathetic part of it, 10 minutes into 15 minutes into the ski lesson, I'm sweating, right. Because of course it's

1 (7m 52s):
Fucking hard and you're bundled up. Okay.

2 (7m 54s):
And you're bundled up and it wasn't really that cold. So it was sweating. And then I remembered that I ha it was around 3:00 PM and I realized I hadn't eaten because I was really nervous about doing the lesson. And you know, when you get past that point of hunger where you start to feel nauseous. Yeah, I got there. And then I did that thing that I don't think I've done since I was in my twenties and drank too much where you feel like you're going to throw up right there in front of a bunch of people. Yes. Yeah. I'm just, I was just imagining, I don't know if anybody clocked me.

2 (8m 35s):
I don't think they did because of course everybody's always just being an engine to themselves and what they're doing, but also proves why it is everything is psychological. And maybe even, especially like a difficult physical thing, you're a person who wasn't raised doing difficult physical things. Like I can take on a emotional challenge, right? Not fail, no big deal. I can take on a, a mental challenge. In fact, I really love the mental challenges, but physical challenge gets me in my feelings every single time. So that's that the other thing is I had an interpersonal conflict this weekend with somebody that I'm estranged from essentially.

2 (9m 20s):
And I'm really proud of how I handled myself.

1 (9m 24s):
Let's hear how you handled yourself.

2 (9m 26s):
I said to this person, well, I start, we have a strange relationship that used to be personal and professional. Great. So I reached out to this person because I realized I had some of their stuff and I knew that I wanted to return. Right. And I had written this email just saying, Hey, I have these things. Let me know where you want me to drop him off. And he wrote back saying, oh, let me, I'll, I'll swing by. I'd love to see you, which threw me for a loop because we haven't talked in like 18 months.

1 (10m 2s):
Wow. That's a long time, couple

2 (10m 5s):
Months. So I wrote back a lie and I said, my kids are sick. I don't think you should come over. And then I decided that not because he deserved anything, but because that was betraying my own integrity, I totally, yup. And robbing me of the opportunity to tell somebody the way in which they hurt me. And so I wrote back and I said, I lied to you. All my kids are not sick. I didn't want to see you. Thank you. And then, and then I also avoided something that I typically do, which is then go into an overlong overly detailed.

2 (10m 47s):
Let me tell you my entire whatever, whatever for five pages, I had written that. And then I stopped myself from sending it. And I just said, I didn't want to see you because, and I just gave like three main reasons and that was it. And you know, it's just, people are so fascinating. His response to me was with zero acknowledgement for what I had said, except to say he disagreed. And just a basic thing of like, if you're, if somebody, oh, and then call, he called me a treasured friend, which I thought, oh really? I'm your treasured friend that you haven't reached out to.

2 (11m 28s):
It doesn't fit. It doesn't fit. And really, truly the inability. And by the way, I'm let me just preface this all to say I see it so clearly because I have done this majority of

1 (11m 41s):
Highlight, I relate to both parts of this.

2 (11m 44s):
You know, somebody tells me that they're hurt by me. And I say, I'm hurt by you. Right. And let me tell you why you shouldn't be hurt by me. And let me tell you all the things I've done for you. That's what he did to me. Oh wow. And I thought, and I, and then for a third time, I avoided the temptation to say your response is exactly why we don't have a friendship. And if you think that this is a treasured friendship, I encourage you to reevaluate your relationships in your life. Right. I didn't do that. It just, I just let it die. And it's okay because I don't feel torn up about it. And I feel I represented myself in exactly. My new guiding thing is let's imagine that this thing I'm going to write to this person gets published on Twitter.

2 (12m 25s):
How do I feel about it?

1 (12m 27s):
So great. I think that is a good north star of like, if this comes out, I always say to like, okay, if I run into this person at a party, how am I going to feel? But the last time we interacted, whether it's in writing or, and most of my things I would feel terrible about. So I stopped. I tried to do things differently, but I think that's so such a good, it also look, the thing about the truth is a personal truth is that it's done then like E it's exists in the world as a personal truth. They don't have to agree. And clearly the person did not agree with you about the content, like the content of it.

1 (13m 10s):
But you told the truth, your truth, like at the end of the day, that's the fucking ultimate thing we can do. That's it

2 (13m 20s):
Is that a lot of the time that I've spent in my life being upset about things that interpersonal one, one thing that I will say is true when the other person says here are all the ways you've hurt me is what I typically do is have a bunch of unexpressed emotions that then I'm mad that the person didn't respond to the emotions or the desires I never expressed in the first place. Right. So it's completely unfair the way I fight dirty in a way, you know, because, and I've, and I've said this before, but so many of my relationships used to end when I just couldn't take it anymore. And then I said to the person, like, I cannot be with you.

2 (14m 1s):
And, and they've always been really surprised. And this person was really surprised too, but I, I can honestly say they shouldn't have been surprised. And I said the truth about it. And because I said the truth about it, I didn't then spend the next, anytime after that rereading and getting, getting angry all over again, I just said, okay. So I laid it all out and they laid it all out and here we are, and we don't agree and that's fine. And the keeps,

1 (14m 31s):
And there's nothing. It's like, there's no like unfinished business. Like that's on your part. Like if they have someone to finish business in their brain, they're going to have to work that out. But like, if we have the unfinished business settled within ourselves, I feel like I can move forward and not be a toxic mess inside. Like I am.

2 (14m 54s):
It was your only job. Your only job in life is to not be toxic to yourself or other people.

1 (14m 59s):
Right. And because that'll kill you. Like I am so convinced that, you know, my speaking for myself and speaking for and watching my mother like that shit, that unresolved shit, the stuff we make up in our head or the real stuff leads to bad news, bad news. And I'm not saying people deserve it and I'm not saying I deserve it, or my mom deserved it. But I'm just saying, this is my firm belief. Is that not telling the truth to ourselves and not cleaning up our side of the street really leads me when I don't do that. I get sick and it can be a numerous ways. And, and, and, you know, and the tricky part is like some of the shit that we, that we, some of it, it starts out when we're little as not our fault.

1 (15m 45s):
Right. So then it switches to being our responsibility. At some point, I don't know where the line is, but it stops being okay, well, you were given this sort of shitty hand in life and you're making do with what you received. And so it's not really your fault. And I would argue, it's not really our quote fault ever, but when is it? It switches to being like, yeah, this is my responsibility to clean up my side of the street. Even though my parents neglected me, even though I never had glasses, like, I'm not going to like, yeah, right. It becomes a thing of like, now it's my job now it's my job. And I think it's only done through some kind of support or therapy where you can switch from, oh, now I've processed it.

1 (16m 30s):
I figured out what went wrong. Right. And how it went wrong. And now it's like, what am I going to do about it?

2 (16m 36s):
Of it? This therapist sounds great. So what's the, what's the, what are you? I think it'd be interesting for people to hear aside from going to therapy, which is a very practical thing to do. What are the other practical ways you can approach your own healing?

1 (16m 53s):
Oh, that's really good. I feel like, so my cousin D'Elia always says, just get back on your bullshit, which means, which is like what people talk about, which means like seriously basic ass shit that I think in this pandemic, we've come to see as not basic ass shit like water, sleep vitamins and exercise, moving the body, moving the body. Like people used to always say, right, like move your body. You have to move. And I used to think that was the stupidest thing I ever heard in my life. I was like, this is something skinny people say to shame, fat people, move your body, make sure you're moving.

1 (17m 37s):
Fuck you. But it's true. It doesn't even matter what size you are. You got to move. If you can, if you can't move one part, move the other part, but move something, right. It just it's for like reasons. And for emotional, physical reasons to move the energy is really important. And I feel like those things are the things that I now do, even if it's just, you know, and that's one thing that's great about getting a pet is that you kind of have to move, you know, and you just do. So what about you? What other things do you do? What do you do?

2 (18m 9s):
I would agree with you. Four mentioned things. And I think actually, as it turns out, writing, writing things down helps because I, a couple of things, I don't have a great memory. So sometimes I don't remember that I already worked through something. So I've started writing things down. And also because writing it down is kind of an in controvertible way of acknowledging that something happened. I mean, for people who have a bunch of unacknowledged nonsense in their history and are in this perpetual state of being victimized by the things that happened to them, that they don't feel anybody ever validated.

2 (18m 53s):
Goodness is only you ever have to validate it. Right. And if it doesn't work for you to say it out loud or say it to a loved one to validate it, it might work for you to write it down. Okay. Did you see don't look up?

1 (19m 19s):
No.

2 (19m 20s):
Okay. And you're not watching American stuff these days, so,

1 (19m 24s):
Well, I watched Cobra, Kai. That's very American and I watched a but no. Okay. But every, okay. So don't look up as one of those things. That's like speaking of hot button, people either love it or hate it. What about you?

2 (19m 38s):
Yes. Okay. Well, Adam McKay is my personal Lord and savior. I think he's the greatest. I have watched the movie, the big short, probably 60 times. Okay. And the reason he's so great for me is in the example of that movie, the big short, he takes a complicated thing that I never understood. And he makes it easy to understand and tells a great story along the way. It's not that it's a perfect movie. There's a lot. Yeah. There's a lot about it that I actually don't like, or not a lot. There are some things about it, which I actually don't like, but he has this pastiche style of storytelling that is it's equal parts, like informative, educational, funny, scary, sad.

2 (20m 25s):
It's the whole enchilada, which is, that's my thing. That's what I really love. I love something. That's not afraid to be all things. However, and I, I didn't actually finish watching. Don't look up. I got interrupted. So maybe I'll feel differently after I've seen the ending of it. And I, I like it. And I think it's a great concept. And I think he's doing all of the things that I love him for. However, I did have the thought is he becoming Michael Moore? You know, because I was all on board with Michael Moore when a bowling for Columbine came out, I just thought he was such a genius. And as time went on, I'm like, oh, he's cuckoo.

2 (21m 5s):
Like he's Coco, he's conspiracy theory. He's presenting what seems like a fact without enough context to really understand that. I'm not quite saying that Adam McKay is doing that, but he, you know, when, when people, I think achieve success in telling their thing, okay, here's an example. Somebody will become famous for one day on Twitter because something that they said goes viral, right. And inevitably they get a bunch of followers. And usually what happens is that person goes, wow, that blew up. Okay. Well, and then they give their elevator pitch about who they are and check out my website.

2 (21m 47s):
And here's my, you know, web series, whatever, which is, I understand it. But when I am the person who follows that person and they do that, then I, and then I unfollow them because I think, okay, now you drank your own. Kool-Aid see. It was cool. When you didn't know you were saying something, but now, you know, you saying something cool and your knowledge of it makes you an interesting me

1 (22m 10s):
Trying to write it it'd be goes too far. And they be, they, you, right. They drink their own Kool-Aid and they're trying to sell themselves then.

2 (22m 18s):
Yes. I feel a little worried that if I thought a McKay is doing that, because he's had so much success and he split from will Ferrell this, I believe this is the first, or I dunno if they split, but like, they're not,

1 (22m 34s):
No, they split. There's like a hole. They got in a big drama too. There is a drama to it. Apparently not, not really, but there was an article like saying we're out of Mackay. Literally was like, I was an asshole. I did bad things and will,

2 (22m 50s):
Oh, oh, okay. That, that tracks, I would say, because I've heard them in interviews. I mean, yeah, he does not seem like a person I would want to be friends with, even though, even though I called him my Lord and savior, I was being cheeky, but I just really like his, I really like his style of filmmaking, but yeah, I, and it's too bad in the same way as Michael Moore. Because if you take away all of the, whatever, whatever, like the message is still in. And like, it's a movie about a comment. It's a fictional movie about a comment, but it's an allegory for climate change. And it's such an important I did.

2 (23m 30s):
I worked on a play, no, I didn't work on Iowa. I was close to some people who were working on a play that that was an allegory for climate change. And that is how that is the effective way to get across these really difficult messages to people is through a really entertaining story. Because if you're, if you're going to beat them over the head with you should stop eating meat and recycling is not enough. And then people are like, I don't want to be lectured to, but you make a great movie or you make a great piece of art and people make that connection on their own. That's what causes them to change. So, anyway, so I was just curious. Did you see any of his other sins? Did you see the big shore?

2 (24m 12s):
Oh, advice was also really good.

1 (24m 15s):
I don't know why I'm like, I don't know why I never saw, I heard the big, short was brilliant.

2 (24m 22s):
So it's so good. Is it also the

1 (24m 24s):
Mortgage crisis?

2 (24m 26s):
Yes. It's all about the subprime mortgage crisis and it's an Altru. I mean, they fictionalized certain things, but, and they say that, but yeah. And, you know, check it out. So that was my thing. You got anything to run by me? Well, I was just,

1 (24m 40s):
I'm going to say like, you know, I'm like a lot of people, I got really obsessed with Cobra, Kai, and it wasn't, it's interesting. A small child got me interested into it that it was not alive when you know, my friend's daughter was not alive when we were obviously alive in the eighties, but it's really filling this hole for people, Cobra, Kai. It started out as a joke. Like they weren't making a show and they put it on YouTube and then it got all this hype and stuff like that. And it's look, it's three white dudes that made it. It's not there's, there's nothing, nothing progressive about the, any of it.

1 (25m 26s):
There's nothing, but why is it filling this hole? It's so fascinating. It's, it's simple. It's not, I think we love nostalgia, but it's more than that because a whole new generation is obsessed with it. So it's not even just like, it's a bunch of us sitting around watching it. A lot of kids are watching it. It's, it's so crazy. It's about karate in the valley. What is

2 (25m 54s):
Okay, well, I haven't seen it, but I've obviously I saw the original movies. Could it be that we're really thirsty for this, the observable villain, the known villain, that, that, it's just a very straightforward competition of like who's stronger than who, because I think the thing that causes all the on we in the world is unknown sealable forces that are working against

1 (26m 27s):
'cause. It's like really clear in Cobra, Kai, who the villain is like in every scene. So there is no virus. There is no, right. There is no like social, you know, they, they th the shows have messages, but there it's very obvious. Everything is a very obvious and the characters are very no nuance.

2 (26m 53s):
See that doesn't surprise me at all. Because one of the trends in AR over the last, I don't know, 50 years has been increasingly more to make things ambiguous and to leave things in the mind of like, you, I'm not going to tell you what the answer is. You decide. Right. I put myself in the category of writers and directors, people who like to do that, who likes to leave it up for the person's interpretation, which is fine. But sometimes people just want an answer. What is it, how am I supposed to feel? And I think you sent that to me when we were talking about documentaries, was that what it was? Or you were talking to me about something, and you said, I just want to know what the point of yeah,

1 (27m 33s):
It wasn't. It was, it was wild, wild country, I think. Yes.

2 (27m 38s):
Right. The documentary to know like,

1 (27m 41s):
Who is good and who is bad and who did the right thing and who did the wrong thing. And that doesn't exist in documentaries. I mean, it shouldn't because that's not what a documentary's job is. I don't think, but I don't know. I'm no expert, but I do think you're right. And Cobra, Kai, there is no question. I mean, even, even when the dojo's, which are like, like, you know, stand-ins for the political parties or whatever, even when they quote disagree or there's ambiguous stuff, you, you know, ultimately who's evil and who's good at heart and, and will you're rooting for like it's and then, yeah.

1 (28m 22s):
And also like the guy, Ralph macho, you know, whatever, he's fine. But what he's stiff is he, he, he acts like he's a coat hanger in his back. Right. But, but Billy Williams <em></em> who plays. Johnny is like salt of the earth. But the fucking best actor I've seen in a long time, I cannot get over it. I'm like this dude should fucking be teaching actor, studio classes take over for James Lipton. He's so simple. And so, and so, but doesn't Telegraph, like he's not overacting. He's like found this middle ground of like, I totally believe him.

1 (29m 6s):
And you don't like him very much, but you also learned the why he's doing what he's doing. And that makes you love him. You may not like him, but you love him. Anyway, the guy hasn't been around, like he stopped acting for like 20 years and was a filmmaker. So maybe being behind the

2 (29m 22s):
Camera, the guy who played the original,

1 (29m 24s):
They're all original people.

2 (29m 27s):
Oh, you're kidding me. I didn't know. That

1 (29m 31s):
Is Johnny from 1980, whatever. And now he's playing Johnny as an adult and he's fucking brilliant. What's he been up to let's even doing so he left acting right after the karate kid. I believe. I don't know. My other, my friend is getting like really obsessed with it. So she's like in the fandom world, I dunno. But he, he then started directing and producing. So I think being behind the camera for so long, he like learned what fucking good acting is. And so I was like, oh my God, he's so much better than anyone else on that show the kids that he is. I, he deserves like Emmy's Oscar, whatever, give it to him.

1 (30m 11s):
And he also, there is an air about him. Like he fucking doesn't care if he's acting like he, he

2 (30m 18s):
That's the most attractive thing when somebody is not hungry or thirsty agree with them in any way.

1 (30m 23s):
He literally, the way he acts and says the lines and stuff it is is if it's just another day, like he, he could just assume work at the home Depot, like literally. And you're like, oh my God, he's so authentic because yeah. So anyway, I, anyone out there that's so I guess what I wanted to run by you was like, do you think that, is that it like, and then you've pretty much said it is that we're hungry to know. Who's good. And who's bad in this world right now. Yeah,

2 (30m 50s):
I think so. Because the other thing that I consumed recently is this book it's called my friend, Anna and I had never heard the story before. It's about a woman who was purporting to be a German heiress. And she was a con a con artist. Yeah. So the person who wrote the book starts with this story about going on a trip to Morocco that was supposedly being paid for by her friend, Anna. Oh

1 (31m 28s):
Yeah. This is coming back to me. I've heard of this. We'll keep going.

2 (31m 31s):
And every time it comes time to pay the check, it's something with her credit card or trust fund the cast to call her bankers and whatever, and Switzerland. And anyway, she has no money. She has no trust men. She's not an heiress at all. So, so the, the person who wrote the book did get stuck with the, for a while. She got stuck with like a $60,000 American express bill. And she was just a person working at vanity fair as a photography, whatever, not an intern, but like a low-level job. Yeah. And yet I was like, really? He wrote a whole book about this, you know, like, okay, if I'm not saying this wasn't a bad thing, but this thing to you was so bad that you had to write a book.

2 (32m 22s):
I mean, at the end, like American express, they forgave it and this girl went to jail and

1 (32m 28s):
Yeah,

2 (32m 32s):
What's the bar for telling a story. Well, the other

1 (32m 35s):
Thing that comes to mind is like, for me as a writer is also like, this shit gets bought without fuck. They published this year.

2 (32m 45s):
Exactly. A white lady. Exactly. Of course she is. And, and she, I it's audio book and she narrates it or just like, yeah, she's whining kind of. And I just think like, man, okay, maybe this is your right to make this money back. Cause you got this, you know, this has been a difficult thing for you, but like, do we really need your voice right now? I don't. I think the answer is no, no,

1 (33m 11s):
You could've made a blog about it and called it a day or like, or maybe there's a vanity fair article. It sounds like something that would be really,

2 (33m 18s):
Oh yeah, there wasn't. And of course in the epilogue, I guess, or maybe it was at the end, the second, this hit the news so-and-so option, the life rights or the <em></em> the vanity fair article. So-and-so that's the other thing, like, I don't understand this disconnect in the powers that be, that make things between either we have to make something that we've already made or we have to find a salacious story. Like what about the millions of people who are writing really great scripts? What's wrong with that?

1 (33m 58s):
Yeah. I think that it's I think that, yeah, you're right. I think that people only want, they want the extremes, like either the thing that has never been thought of before or the thing that we will remake some great idea. That's been theirs. We don't like the, the middle area in this world, in this culture, in this planet. We don't like it. We want it.

2 (34m 22s):
We're going to have to embrace the middle path at some point, because not embracing the middle path is exactly why we have a lot of the problems that we have

1 (34m 31s):
Extremes, like come on. So yeah. And then yeah, I just, okay. Yeah, that doesn't sound, it's like good for you that you, but also it makes me think that like, okay, like, you know, she had all these connections at vanity fair. Right? Probably.

2 (34m 47s):
And honestly she wandered into these jobs. Like she got, she went to Kenyan call. I'm sure it's all about her Kenyon college connection. She went to Kenyon college. She wrote, she figured out the formatting of somebody's email because she looked at how vanity fair formats, their emails sent it to somebody looking for a job. That person wrote her a like three paragraph response. Oh. And I'm not the right person, but you look great. And you know what, let me forward your fit. I'm going, who gets this treatment? I just cold emailed somebody.

1 (35m 26s):
I literally get that treatment one out of every 635, maybe emails. And it's a two paragraph saying no, but great cover letter, but you're great. Doesn't

2 (35m 37s):
Lead to anything. And it's not no, but let me refer you to a colleague. Who's definitely going to give you a job. I mean, it's just,

1 (35m 44s):
It's like, she's probably a cute white lady,

2 (35m 45s):
Right? I mean, that's exactly what she has and it's all. And that's what got to me, there was no point in the story where she said she w she was plenty, happy to talk about. She was, as they say, she was PO mouthing saying that her, she didn't come from a lot of money and she's from Tennessee and whatever. She was very happy to say that, but she never sucked about her

1 (36m 6s):
Privilege. And that's

2 (36m 7s):
Why the course, it's my white, thin attractive privilege that got me the job job at vanity fair, you know, getting into these circles where I can go meet somebody who's trying to con right.

1 (36m 22s):
You can't even meet somebody. That's trying to cut the rest because we're really what you would be is like talking with homeless people on the street. Like that's, you know what I mean? Like, go do write a book about that, you know? Yeah. No, I'm a hard pass to that

2 (36m 49s):
Today on the podcast we talked to Joel Butler Butler is a stage manager. He's been working with blue man group for the majority of his career. And he has some great insight to share from the perspective of stage management. So please enjoy our interview with Joe Butler. Oh, one thing I'll just say we, we're not able to record this the normal way we do. And we had to do it on zoom, which has lots of limitations audio wise. So it may not be up to snuff, but it's the best we can do. So what else can we do?

2 (37m 39s):
Oh God. Are you in Chicago,

3 (37m 42s):
Joel or

2 (37m 46s):
How's that?

3 (37m 49s):
Yeah, it's cold today. It's like five degrees, but I've been here since 2010. I was in 29 with the great recession. I got laid off at blue man, Chicago. And then a year later they called me with a position in Boston.

1 (38m 7s):
There was a blue van pasta.

3 (38m 8s):
Yes, yes. Yeah. They've been here since 95. Holy shit.

2 (38m 14s):
Yeah. Okay. Well, we jumped right in. So congratulations, Joel Butler, you survived theater school. I love to hear from the perspective from, from the other side of things, because I find it, we have found that often anybody who is not enacting had a much more narrative experience of school than we did. What about for you? Do you, do you have like a, kind of a complete memory of theater school or is it sort of patchy for you?

3 (38m 42s):
No, I have a complete memory of it. I mean, I've been listening to you two other episodes on, and the trauma that the acting students had. Like, I was not aware of a lot of it. I mean, I knew there were some stuff, but the depths of it with some of the stories was, was kind of shocking to me, to be honest, because for me, at least I started off actually as a theater study students, my first year there and about like a month into it, I realized, oh, I'm in the wrong program. And talks to Frank, <em></em> about transferring to stage management, which is what I was really leaning towards. And so I had to save the theater studies program for the first year and then went into the production management major in my second year and basically had to redo my first year and my second year.

3 (39m 33s):
And,

2 (39m 34s):
Oh, wait, does that mean that, does that mean that you thought you were going to be doing stage management in the theater studies program?

3 (39m 40s):
Actually? Well, when I was looking at schools, you know, I mean, I always, I always knew I wanted to do theater. I always, you know, I grew up in New Jersey. My parents took me to see Broadway shows all the time. You know, one of my first memories of seeing Peter pan as a kid with Sandy Dunkin and, you know, and, you know, I remember the feeling like when I saw them fly and I'm like, oh, you know, and so that really hooked me. And so, you know, and I went to a performing arts high school part-time, you know, for acting and voice. And I knew pretty early on that. I didn't want the actress life, but I wanted to work in theater. And in my high school, the stage manager was actually kind of more like an assistant director than a stage manager. So I actually, wasn't a hundred percent clear of what stage management really was until I actually got to college.

3 (40m 25s):
And so looking at majors and looking at schools, and then when I got to theater school, the theater studies program looking at the curriculum of it really seemed to align with what I thought stage managers did because the production management major only had one stage management class. And so I didn't really feel like this. And then when I got, there was like, oh, I'm in the wrong program. And there was only one other stage manager in the first-year class, Kelly Craven. So myself and Rodney hunter actually was in the same do the same thing. So both Rodney and I transferred to production management for our second year, but Frank Lucas was really supportive and let you know both Robbie and I, the assistant stage managers for our crew assignments for the second and third quarter of our first year, and then really transitioned fully into the production management major for a second, third, fourth year.

3 (41m 18s):
Yeah.

1 (41m 19s):
What did appeal to you about the actor's life? I mean, you,

2 (41m 23s):
You were so smart by the way you made such the right

1 (41m 26s):
Decision made the right decision.

2 (41m 28s):
And we've never said on this program to people, if you really like theater, but you're met some mats on being an actor, please do something else in theater because also you will be employed and you won't, if you're an actor.

3 (41m 42s):
Well, that's part of that, you know, as part of the employment and plus, you know, I have so many self-esteem issues back then, just the constant critiques and you know, of, of everything. I just didn't want to deal with that with my mental state and just the uncertainty of it. I mean, I knew there was always going to be uncertainty going into theater, but I kind of wanted, you know, I really thought about, okay, what, what is it a feeder that attracts me? And what is it that I really enjoy about theater? And, you know, for me, like, yeah, the applause was great, but what I really enjoyed most was the process and putting it all together and putting it on. And that's kind of where I felt stage management was really a good fit for me. And then in actually getting to do it at the theater school, I just fell in love with it immediately.

3 (42m 26s):
And

1 (42m 27s):
What about it? Did you fall in love with like what made really had a lot of juice for you about it?

3 (42m 33s):
Oh, well I looked puzzles and, you know, stage management is really just kind of like putting one big puzzle together all the time, you know, and then learning more about, you know, the rules of the duties and responsibilities of the state manager was, was really appealing. Frank kids actually in, in the stage management class gave me the best piece of advice I've ever gotten about what stage management is and w and I've taken it with me. And what he said was the stage managers are in charge of nothing but responsible for everything. And I really taken that to heart, you know, and, and the way that I approach stage management, that, you know, I'm not, I'm not dictating what people are doing, I'm responsible so that they feel supported, so they can go on and put the best show up every night that they can do.

3 (43m 22s):
You know,

2 (43m 23s):
So one thing that occurs to like a lasting memory of stage managers and stage management at our age was there is something sort of inherently parental about being a stage manager. And when you're having to do that with your peers, or in many cases, probably people who are older than you, what was that like?

3 (43m 43s):
And, you know, it's definitely intimidating at times, you know, you know, when I had to deal with some personalities that were a little bit more grander than others, You know, I never, I personally, I never had a negative really, really negative experience with anybody at the theater school. You know, there were definitely some people who had some egos about them and, you know, had to navigate those waters, especially when I did make the pass. There were a few in there

1 (44m 16s):
You didn't use stage manage shoes and Lee's Macbeth. Yeah. Do you know, I

2 (44m 22s):
Just pick, I'm sorry. Does the directors get to pick their stage

3 (44m 24s):
Managers? No, no. Frank work gets assigned to them.

1 (44m 28s):
I loved Frank Walker, which by the way,

3 (44m 30s):
Yeah.

1 (44m 32s):
Oh man. But I, I remember you don't, it's so interesting. The two productions that I think got the most sort of, I don't know, weirdness about them were Peter pan and Macbeth both directed by her. And I don't have any look, I don't know her from Adam. She said some really weird shit in our classes. And, and, and also like I'm friends with her on Facebook, which is odd. I saw that the other day. But anyway, that show that my best show was sort of this larger than life situ it was almost like a Broadway play in, at the, at the world.

1 (45m 13s):
Right. Like everyone wanted to be in it. And I, I know,

3 (45m 18s):
Well, she had this great shift where you have that great concept, like with, with the drumming, For the big fight, at the end, we had the ensemble circle that, that rate stage, you know, that we use for both that and yellow boat. And, and, and it just, you know, it was just really primal, you know, a little bit, I know the drums would be a huge part of my life at that time, but

1 (45m 41s):
Segue my segment, tell everybody what you're talking about.

3 (45m 44s):
Yeah. So now, you know, cause I worked for blue man for 20 plus years now. So just drumming has just kind of ironically, just, I never cared to listen about drumming and I, that it's just yeah. Pretty much. Yeah.

1 (45m 58s):
Tell us, tell us your bloomin' story. How did you get a job? Yeah.

3 (46m 2s):
Oh, well, I was so after college, you know, I did the day job thing, but I actually worked at the theater school for a year as the production coordinator, that little office right in the front there, I worked there for a year and then did like a day job. It's a crew with the Goodman theater and made my way to about the theater, which is the small LGBT company in Chicago and then kind of through them and other people someone's like, oh, Hey blue, man's looking for a stage manager. And so I applied and luckily got it. I did apply with women when they first opened in 97 in Chicago, but they were like, oh, you're just out of college. Go get some more experience. So, so I did that.

3 (46m 42s):
And then

1 (46m 44s):
I have a question. I have a question. Did you feel when, when you left the theater school as a stage manager, did you feel like equipped to be a stage manager?

3 (46m 55s):
I did. That's fair,

1 (46m 57s):
Fucking fantastic.

3 (46m 59s):
'cause the, you know, another thing that, you know, the Franklin can set here to get some really great advice was, you know, at least for the stage management department and maybe all the technical side of things is the school will give to you what you put into it, you know, you know, and for us, the majority of our education was actually doing it and doing the shows, you know, and, you know, I actually just got done working at the Boston conservatory at Berkeley for the fall semester being one of their stage managers and just getting to see how another conservatory does things. We were spoiled at DePaul. We were, I mean, having that Merle reskin stage play and being able to do shows in a Broadway house and, you know, like we were spoiled.

1 (47m 42s):
That's so good to know. It gives me a new perspective. Okay. Okay.

3 (47m 46s):
And, you know, and, and, you know, even hearing the stories, but all having to do shows in classrooms like there, some of their students, you know, they don't have a guarantee of being in production. So, you know, at least when we went there, you know, all the acting students had a guarantee that they were going to do shows and gain experience. You know,

1 (48m 2s):
Sometimes there's some places don't do, you're not guaranteed to be in a show at all

3 (48m 7s):
And do like two or three shows a quarter.

1 (48m 11s):
Can you imagine that you graduate? You've never been in a goddamn play.

3 (48m 17s):
Also another, like another great thing about it, you know, is that we did multiple weekends of shows versus just one, like Berkeley only did one weekend of shows, which, you know, it's just, which was great that we actually can do it. But you know, a big part of the training for actors is maintaining a show and then not really getting that experience. So like telling them, we did kids shows for three months, you know, three times a week, they were like, that's insane. And you know, so

1 (48m 45s):
No, this is helping me get like a different perspective. No, I'm serious. Like I know, I don't think we ever heard that before that, like, can you,

2 (48m 54s):
We did hear the, from the person who went to Northwestern, that she never got cast the entire time she was there. So, yeah. Right. You're right. We were spoiled in some ways. So w what is your connection? If, if you have any at all to, or ha over the years to people who are studying stage management now, or do you ever mentor,

3 (49m 16s):
The only mentoring I've really done is just having people shadow me as Lou man, blue man has such a weird own universe in the theater world. You know, I did find myself get a little pigeonholed in that, you know, when I first found myself out of work in oh nine, well, cause there's, some of the bigger theaters were just like, oh, you're a blue man. And you're too small for us. And the smaller theaters were like, oh, you're blue, man. You're too big for us. And it's just like, I just want to do theater. So.

1 (49m 48s):
And why did you, did you stay with blue, man? It must've actually, what did it give you? Like, obviously it was steady work. They probably paid well. Right. But what did you stay there? What did you love? What do you love about it? Like what it's, what do you love about it?

3 (50m 3s):
Well, the, one of the best things about blue man is that the show is different every night, you know, because the, you know, it's a rotating cast and band, and there are some moments in the show that are slightly improv and each show is different depending on the audience and the energy of the audience and the relationship between the blue men and the band and, and the show has been updated over the years as well. So, you know, while the times, if they get a little stagnated, there was always enough in there to keep it fresh and to keep it exciting. And plus I also got some amazing travel opportunities. I've traveled all over the world with, yeah, I've gone to it's right before total, actually in 2020 was in China for a month and a half.

3 (50m 49s):
And I was in did the show in Saudi Arabia, in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia for a month, which was really exciting. One of the best things that I got to do with blue man was we had a show on Norwegian cruise lines and I was the cash crossover stage manager, which meant, so the, the cast changed out every four months. And so the, when a new cast would go in and those cats will leave, I would go with them for a week and kind of onboard them onto the ship, run the rehearsals, get them into the show, You know, I would get to cruise the Mediterranean for a week or the Caribbean for a week and get paid. And it was great, you know, so I did that for like four years, you know, and got to go to everywhere, you know, Rome and Barcelona and Palmer and amazing.

1 (51m 42s):
Yeah, you could, that sounds like a fucking dream. And also it's all hard. The other thing that I want to say is like, when I th my biggest sort of learning experience with a stage manager, this is good. This is like ASCA stage manager. So I didn't realize that stage managers ran rehearsals for understudies. It's fucking crazy. You have to be a director. So like you, I don't think people know that. So when I was understudying at the red, at a red orchid, Stephanie Heller was our stage manager and she ran, she had to be a director, a stage manager, a props person.

1 (52m 23s):
It was crazy. So I don't think people know exactly the amount of shit that stage managers do and the amount of like emotional labor that's involved, because we had people that didn't know what the fuck they were doing as understudies. And she would have to teach them how to do crazy. Crazy.

3 (52m 43s):
Yeah. I mean, you know, another analogy of stage management is, you know, we're just spinning plates and just trying to keep all the plates spinning at the same time, you know, and, you know, that's why it's so important that stage managers have a good relationship with directors and, and really pay attention in those blocking sessions in rehearsal sessions, because it's our responsibility to communicate the director's vision to the understudies. Once we're open,

1 (53m 4s):
It was crazy how much directing she gave me. I was direction and good direction. It wasn't like she was like, she like knew what knew the play inside and out. So anyway, I guess what I'm S I also want to ask is how do you think that there's a certain amount of psychological awareness that you need as a stage manager to deal with people? Yeah,

3 (53m 25s):
Definitely. Oh, definitely. I do wish that part of the curriculum was more like sociology classes, psychology classes. So those personnel management type classes, because that is a huge part of stage management, especially on a long running show, on a shorter show, on like a contract show where you're just doing it for four or five weeks, there are some things that you might like, okay, we're just here for a few weeks, we'll split a slide, but you know, doing an open-ended show that runs for 20 years and you have interpersonal conflict and dealing with this stuff, you really need to nip that in the bud as quickly as possible.

1 (53m 58s):
I've seen some crazy ass shit go on in the stage manager had to like this guy in. And I just have to tell you in an understudy rehearsal, this guy got so mad that he smashed a glass. And I was so triggered. I thought I was like, what the fuck is happening? And then our stage manager stepped in and was brilliant, but like, w how did you learn that shit? Like, how do you approach that shit?

3 (54m 21s):
It's just, just by doing it, you know, you just kinda gotta suck it up and do it, you know, when those hard things come and, you know, rehearsal rooms get tense because that's, that happens, you know, I mean, that happened at the theater school too, a few times for me. So, and that was hard, you know, as a student, you know, in dealing with faculty directors and who might get a little spicy

1 (54m 45s):
You're so diplomatic, they got some badass crazies, what they got, what, how do you approach it? Like, what's your philosophy of something's going bonkers? What do you do? How do you, what do you say to yourself? You're like, I just have to do it. Or like how

3 (54m 59s):
It's way up to doing. You have to, you know, depending on the situation, deescalate the such situations, you know, if it's really, if it's about to come to blows, you know, separate people, if it's, if it's just kind of like awkwardness, you know, see how long you can ride it until you can take a break in a rehearsal room, like, Hey, let's just take a break right now, you know, and go talk to people. It's really just about communication. And, you know, nine times out of 10, when people have a problem in, you know, in a rehearsal room where they react to something negatively, it's not times I said not because of what just happened. It's because of other

2 (55m 34s):
Circumstances. Yeah. Like, I'm wondering, for example, when you're doing something on the road, this, this seems to me a really ripe opportunity for there to be problems. People are in a foreign land. They don't, you know, there any, even if they weren't having to remap, essentially the show in a new space is there's always some getting used to it. So do you find the abroad part is a little bit more challenging in terms of the human resources side of things and people feeling out of sorts or tense?

3 (56m 7s):
Well, most of the stuff that I've done abroad that was kind of like sit down touring stuff was in such, you know, far places that the culture shock of it all was kind of felt by everybody which actually bonded everybody a little bit more, you know, you know, like in a plane, shout China for a week, which is, you know, this city in the middle of China where there's nothing around there and there's nothing to do in there. You know, you, you, you kind of become a fat family. And so again, it's, again, the same thing when things come up, you know, you rely on your company management.

1 (56m 43s):
Oh,

3 (56m 45s):
Sure. Related would I, would I step in at that point auditorium,

2 (56m 50s):
Are you expected to manage every problem like that on your own? At what point do you have to bring it to somebody else?

3 (56m 58s):
I mean, it depends on the production, like here at blue man, we are your management team, you know, between state management and company management and, you know, company managements are my supervisors. So, and then I supervise proof formers. So it's, it's, it's conversations about, it's not those things about disciplinary thing actions. And it just depends on the company and the company's policies of how that goes, if it's more corporate, you know, like then theater,

1 (57m 24s):
I also feel like, like in union versus non-union shows. Okay. So like in storefront theater non-union shows crazy shit would go on. Like that would never be allowed at a you, you know, I think that you need as important for the, for actually for like mental health and physical safety boundaries in theater, because I feel like theater can get so wild and people don't, people use it as a, as a, as a way of like working through shit, which is not supposed to be, but like at least with a union situation, there's like rules, right? It's like, oh no, no, you can't just start doing, but non-union did you ever, you went union really fast, right? Because when you,

3 (58m 5s):
No, I'm living, I'm not union actually. Yeah. No blue man. It's not union. Well, cause when Bloomberg first opened, they invited equity and equity is like, you don't talk, we don't watch it. So they didn't, they didn't go union crew wise only the Vegas show is unionized. The rest of it is not, but blue man has been always really good about taking care of their employees. So, you know, the goal with that was always to make them not want to unionize because you know, so

2 (58m 35s):
Save money,

1 (58m 37s):
But also, so that if you're treated well enough, you won't need to union is that it's also the underlying thing. Right.

3 (58m 44s):
But I'm, you know, I inequity myself, you know, I don't need, you know, so I'm totally pro union. And in the situations where I have worked union, like the rules are great, they're there for a reason. And you know, all this new conversation about in the industry of, you know, getting rid of tens out of 12 and work-life balance is wonderful. And I support it a hundred percent and I hope that we're able to all able to find that way forward so that we're not all killing ourselves to produce art.

2 (59m 11s):
I actually, a 10 out of 12, 10 out of 12 should have been abolished a long time ago. So I'm on theater, Twitter. And I, you know, a couple of weeks ago there was a lot of talk about understudies and, and oh, right. Well, we never get to really hear about what are the kind of collective concern or I maybe, because I'm not on stage management, Twitter, we never get to here. I don't feel like I ever get to hear about the collective concerns of people who aren't actors or, you know, or I mean, actors, understudies or actors too. What are kind of some of the big conversations? I know, I know you're not on Broadway right now, but like what are some of the big conversations about the stage management world in American theater?

3 (59m 51s):
Wow. That's a lot of pressure. I can do it. Like I said, my world is pretty much been blue man a lot. So, you know, one of the kids Broadway with a dream, but I just don't think that's in the cards anymore, which is totally fine because you know, what I've done is great on its own. So, but what I think is, again, is the work-life balance thing. You know, work life balance for stage managers is always been difficult because you know where they're supposed to be the first to first to be their last to leave, you know, we're responsible. Like I said, we're, we are responsible for everything, you know, and you know, I know I would work 60 hour or 70 hour weeks during the tech process just to, to get it all done and to, you know, and to be there for everybody else.

3 (1h 0m 39s):
And, you know, like, so at Berkeley, you know, I, when I was stage managing, I, we did head over heels, which was a very fun musical musical, but the tech process was a little stressful. You know, it was, we ran a, some difficulties, you know, with, with just everything going on right now. And, you know, I worked about a 65 hour a week in that tech week and the one thing, but the thing was, is also my first show back, you know, post COVID that I had done. And while it was frustrating and stressful at the same time, I was like, I'm having the best time of my fucking life right now. You know, like I'm, I'm having a great time. I'm putting on art, I'm working with really talented kids, those students at that school, so talented and, and it was just having the best time and just that feeling of putting on theater and like, and just being a part of that process of feeder.

3 (1h 1m 29s):
That's what sustains me, you know, and, you know, if, because everything else was really nice, it was a positive experience and other experiences, I think working 65 hours could be really hard, horrible too. But

2 (1h 1m 41s):
I would love to hear that. I love to hear that because I guess I never really put much thought into the, the excitement or the feeling of artists. I mean, I don't know if you would call it artistic eye, but I guess it is artistic satisfaction that people get in, you know, in all the roles in theater from putting on a show, right. That's what we really like really like putting on a show.

3 (1h 2m 2s):
Well, since management is an art form, you know, I, and, and I, I will advocate that about the artist stage management until the day I die, you know?

2 (1h 2m 11s):
Well,

3 (1h 2m 12s):
Well, because you know, well, paperwork is boring to some, it needs to look pretty that's, you know, that's, you know, I, I like, I like my clip art. I like making pretty borders and stuff, you know, but then once you get to the actual show running and calling a show and the ability to call a show properly and be in sync with the performers is important, you know, and that's one skill I really learned at blue man is I have to really be in sync with the performers and the blue men to, to hit moments, to hit east, to hit transitions. And, and even in regular plays or musicals where there isn't much improv, you still have to be in tune with everybody. You know, you have to be on the beat with the conductor. You have to be, you know, with the actor, who's singing that song who might want to take an extra breath.

3 (1h 2m 53s):
And so, you know, there, there is an art form to it. And sometimes I feel that might get a little pushed to the wayside and talking to management, cause calling isn't just, you know, lights go let you know, you have to be in the moment, just like an actor. You have to, you know, you know, I might hold a light cue a second or two longer, depending on if that scene really rock tonight or take a quicker because it failed tonight. You know? So, you know, that's what I, when I thought about the artist stage management, you know, it's really more, you know, it's probably a little more focused on the calling side of things, but the paper exciting was pretty big.

2 (1h 3m 28s):
The, the ha it's a lot of active listening, which is exactly what it is to be an actor. I, one time was hearing somebody on some podcast talking about calling Starlight express, which, you know, people like broke their legs and stuff in that show. People who don't know it's, it's a musical that's, everybody's on roller skates. And so that, I think actually in that show is where they, they pioneered something about the, those cue lights. I think that's where say, I think that's where cue lights started was that Starlight express. I could be making that up

3 (1h 4m 2s):
Lights,

2 (1h 4m 3s):
The red light, red light to keep people on. Okay. But I want it to get back to this thing that you said in the beginning that you didn't have any idea, sorry, my dog was pregnant. Her, you didn't have any idea about the, the drama, you didn't experience as much like storm and drunk, whatever in your side of things. And you didn't really know about that from the actress. I guess that kind of surprises me because we all spent so much time together. It doesn't surprise me that there wasn't as much drama in your program because of the nature of the work. But I guess it surprises me that you, so what, what's an example of something that surprised you to hear about,

3 (1h 4m 39s):
Well, I guess it was just some of the, you know, borderline abuse, you know, like from some of the acting teachers, especially in the first year, some of those stories, I was like, wow, that's harsh. You know? And like, I always, I knew that there was, you know, that the acting teachers there, you know, really when actually off, but just a couple of the smaller stories, I was just like, oh, that's, that's intense, you know? And just, you know, like listening to Jen Coburn, her, her, her one, like a few things that she was saying, some of the professors would talk to her. I'm just like, that's just not right. You know, you know, and, and, and the awkwardness, you know, some of the inappropriateness of things, you know, in our time at the theater school, you know, like, like for colored girls, you know, like doing that show with only three African-American actresses in the casting pool, not the best choice, you know, and things like that and good doing guns.

3 (1h 5m 30s):
Do you remember that show gun? The children's musical about that? The characters were seven and it was a musical and, And they shoot the human at the end of the musical.

1 (1h 5m 47s):
It was a kid show. Oh, fuck,

3 (1h 5m 52s):
No, no, no, I did. I did, no. I did a pipe dream. I missed the line. Kelly Craven, Kelly Craven did the yellow boat.

2 (1h 6m 4s):
That was my favorite

3 (1h 6m 8s):
Dream is still one of my favorite shows I've ever done. It's still, it's still actually the most difficult show I've ever called in my career because it was like a 40 to 45 minutes long, but there were over 400 cues in it. And so cause cause of David, Swayze's amazing sets and Scott filed these amazing lighting and, and all that. So I parked dream. I hold in my heart like this is the first show I ever stayed, managed really, truly as well too. And, and it was just such an amazing experience cause it was over winter break that we rehearsed. So we were all kind of in this rehearsal bubble and Rick Murphy was Rick Murphy at the time, you know, and you know, the cast, you know that the four of them, Jen and Colleen and Mike, Don and, and Johnny, you know, we all just formed a little family and it was just super great.

3 (1h 6m 57s):
And it's one of the best experiences I've ever had still to this day.

2 (1h 7m 4s):
Okay. So we love to hear about disasters. Do you have any disasters?

1 (1h 7m 9s):
You don't have to name days. You can if you want, but like yours, because I, I, one of my things is like I've recently my, of my middle age years developed a stage fright. So like, do you have stage fright disasters or someone peeing on stage or barfing? I love to hear,

2 (1h 7m 28s):
I don't think that happens. Does it

1 (1h 7m 31s):
Someone must appeal?

3 (1h 7m 32s):
Oh, it must have. I mean, I've, you know, I am knock on wood. I have been fortunate that very few things have gone wrong in my show, especially in blue man, like half the time, the crazy stuff will happen. Other people. And I'm so thankful to have that fight, you know, like

1 (1h 7m 49s):
Nobody has ever gone up at, at blue man. Like, fuck, I don't have lines. No, but like, like doesn't know what to do next. Or like has a panic attack. Like that's my thing is like, no,

3 (1h 7m 59s):
I mean, I haven't, I mean, it's possible. I haven't had a show. Like The one thing that did happen once was during a video transition, a blue man had some stomach issues and needed to run to the bathroom

1 (1h 8m 17s):
Is what you're saying. Yes. It's called

3 (1h 8m 19s):
Diarrhea. Had to run to the bathroom quickly, get out of the whole costume and then come back on stage. Now the point of the show was the drum bone piece, you know, with the flooding CVP five. And so there's three roles, right. Center and left.

1 (1h 8m 34s):
Please tell me it was Jeff Brown. Was it somehow Jeff? Okay.

3 (1h 8m 38s):
Yeah. Japan. I have only ever done one blue man show together tire time. But so yeah. So the person who had the diarrhea, he only knew two of the roles right. And left, but the third person, the third blooming that comes in during the piece is the center blue man. And because he went to the bathroom, he had to come into central blue man. And he did not know the piece at all. That was quite hilarious of the other two. Bloomin' like very broadly motioning and moving to get him to, to play the instrument correctly. And that was a very amusing story. Everyone got a huge kick out of that.

1 (1h 9m 16s):
The audience, none, the wiser like fucking crazy,

2 (1h 9m 21s):
So crazy. Honestly like every mistake that actors make or, or, or anybody makes when they're calling in show, whatever we feel that it was so glaring. And so obvious. I mean, I remember being in shows probably in high school where, you know, I don't know they're doing noises off, which is already a very convoluted play and, and just completely switching sections around. And my mom had gone to every performance I get off stage and I'm like, can you believe it? She's like, why did it Ms. Gray? She had no idea. And she'd seen the show three times before. So it's just one of those things

3 (1h 9m 58s):
I saw it. I went and saw one job has gave us Christmas bonus. We're going to see Joseph and the amazing Technicolor tutorial. And so we went and at the end of that one, all of a sudden, like I noticed all the lights go out and the work lights come on, like for the big end for Google Joseph at the end or whatever, and looking, you know, and I feel the tech people like running around like, Ooh, something's going on? And what's going on. Right. And then during an admission, like I'm talking about my car. I was like, oh my God, did you notice that? And they're like, what? I was like, you didn't notice all the lights go out and then I'll like

1 (1h 10m 27s):
Theater, right? Like these are theater folks.

3 (1h 10m 29s):
Oh no, they weren't theater folks. But, but still, it was just like, really? Like, you didn't notice that.

1 (1h 10m 35s):
Right? Yeah. I love the story. I mean, we interviewed Joan Montana who said that, like he went up at, in Glen, Gary, Glen Ross, like wet up the opening night or opening night or opening night on Broadway, the dude dropped pages and that ed was doing a monologue. And then they, he just like, basically like made some shit up and they dropped the curtain and then he wasn't going to go back on basically. And then like, bam it. And Lindsay Crouse came to him and said, you have to like Heather, they won the award, the Tony or whatever. But the point is like, it is so anything can happen. Like, I'm just thinking of like, like weird shit.

1 (1h 11m 16s):
Like when I was again at, at an understudy at red orchid, we were, I was in the audience and someone and I was watching a show and it wasn't an actor, but someone in the audience was high on drugs or like painkillers and began to snore and like convulse. And I watched the stage manager watching me watching it. And we were both like, what do we do? This person was like, it was crazy. It's a small house. And I got up as the understudy. I got up and like went over and she like thanked me for it later. But the person was high on drugs. I mean, like, it was crazy. Like shit goes on. You can't control an audience. Is

2 (1h 11m 55s):
It somebody's job to watch the audience?

3 (1h 11m 58s):
Yeah. Task management. And how staff does We start? 10 o'clock shows at blue mans that back in the day that I got really rowdy. So we used to have all that paper in the show too. I don't know if he, like in the finale, we've caught people having sex during finale. Yeah. It's insane. Back in the day was back in the day, but

2 (1h 12m 26s):
It goes on the mind of somebody who chooses that opportunity to mean, is that, is that alcohol right? Right, right, right. How could I have forgotten? Okay. So you didn't have maybe some of the same problems or, or, or traumas that the actors did, but you weren't going through college. And, and of course this show is about surviving. And so what were some challenging moments that you might've had personally, or with the program or interpersonal with your friends that, and how did you, how did you survive? How did you cope? Yeah,

3 (1h 13m 7s):
Well, you know, one of the big things for me was, you know, coming to terms with my sexuality, realizing I was gay, you know, and you know, my first year and you know, one thing that I really wanna think about the theater school, one of the thing I think about is the community that we all form there, you know, like I might not talk to a lot of those, you know, to, to you and to all the people, but I, I still consider y'all family in a way, you know, like we all went through something that is specific to us and, and now it's gone because, you know, there's that lovely new building, you know, but, you know, I remember the Foursquare tournament south front,

1 (1h 13m 42s):
I swear, you know, who was fucking good at that was fucking Alex Scooby and lodgey those motherfuckers. So my God. Yeah.

3 (1h 13m 51s):
And I love those, you know, remember the Foursquare tournaments. I remember, like, I can't remember if it's our third year or fourth year where I think it was the MFA directors did a bunch of one X in the lounge, in the lobby there, you know, like the one with the monkeys typing Hamlet, just never like everybody was like, it was all around. And just like watching the laughing and just having a great time and, and the God squad parties and all the other parties. And I just remembered, you know, I just remember the community that we had and that's, that's kinda what I always think back on, you know. And

1 (1h 14m 24s):
How were you able to, who supported you? Like, how did you, how were you able to, when you came, you know, came to terms with being gay, like, did you feel supported at the theater school and did it help?

3 (1h 14m 34s):
Yes, I did. You know, my first year there, there already too old, slightly older people in the theater studies program, mark John, I think his name was Elizabeth. I can't remember the last name, but both of them were, were, were really, really wonderful people and really great friends at the time. And really kind of just helped me like, listen to me and talk through it. And then my second year, Jeffrey Hoffman, who was an MFA actor for their front desk, like he, he, he, he, more than anybody else really, you know, he was one of the first real out and proud gay men that I've seen and just really allowed me to, to see what that was like and just to be okay.

3 (1h 15m 22s):
And just, it is. And, and so it was, it was really through like that part of my second year where I really accepted myself fully. And it was just despite getting to know people who I hadn't known and listening to experiences that I hadn't experienced before. And while, while we were a very white community at the time, we were still diverse in other ways, too, that New Jersey.

1 (1h 15m 48s):
Oh, you're from Jersey. Okay. And so did you, was your family supportive of you when you came out? Yeah.

3 (1h 15m 54s):
Yeah. I mean, it took some time I didn't come out to them to my senior year, fourth year of college, you know, cause you know, even how to live in boyfriend at the time, you know, that there was, you know, right. But yeah, like my coming out story is really funny. So it was, I was, I went home for my friend's college graduation in may of 97. Yep. And whenever I go home, my mom and I would just sit at the car for, at the kitchen table, smoke cigarettes, talk and whatnot. And we're just sitting there and she's, you know, she's like, can I ask you something? I was like, yeah. She's like, are you gay? I was like, yes. And she's like, I love you. Don't tell your father, like literally the first words out of

1 (1h 16m 36s):
My mom,

3 (1h 16m 38s):
Don't tell your father. And then, and then I, you know, and then after we're done talking, I run a call, my boyfriend, I'm like, oh my God. I just came out to my mom and he's like, oh, that's great. And he's like, I can tell you the ad. It's like, no, no, gosh, no, I can't. And then my dad comes home that night and we're all sitting in the kitchen and he's like, Joel, can I ask you something? That's okay. I was like, are you gay? And like the flood works opened up. I was like, I can tell you, you know, just this, you know, just the father, son things. And, and then he was just like, listen, it doesn't matter. I love you. You're always, my son give me a hug. And, and it was the best thing that ever happened because it just opened up our relationship. And I love my dad. I love my dad more than anything. And

2 (1h 17m 18s):
That's so sweet when you were talking about the other people, Jeffery Hoffman and other people, by the way, we have to get Jeffrey Hoffman. That's a nice guy. Are you

1 (1h 17m 26s):
Still in touch with Jeffrey Hoffman at all?

3 (1h 17m 28s):
Oh, just Facebook friends to hold my hand and like Adam Matthias as well. You know, just like these gay men who were just living them themselves in their authentic

1 (1h 17m 39s):
<em></em> that's for sure. Yeah.

2 (1h 17m 42s):
Yeah. He used to celebrate coming out day. But anyway, when you talked about that, it just, it made me think we always talk about representation in terms of how it's media, but we don't, I never really think about representation just in your community and people that, you know, and I mean, because you probably knew that you were gay before your first year of theater school, but you probably didn't have so many people, you know, that you felt like. Cause I think it, it seems like it must be a community that you, you have to see the community that you can then join. And if you don't see that community, then it certainly must feel unsafe.

3 (1h 18m 20s):
Well, yeah, I know it's early nineties too, which is, you know, it's like, you know, it's a very different time than it is now. You know, coming out in high school was just, you just didn't do that.

1 (1h 18m 28s):
So now it's like with glee and everything, it's like Kurt humble, you know, that whole situation like people are really, we, you know, we did, we, some of us did the hard work back then.

2 (1h 18m 42s):
I was talking to my son the other day and he goes, mom, did you know that? Like in the fifties gay people could not. And I go in the fifties, you talking about dude, it was like 10 years ago, practically. I mean, it really hasn't even been very long at all. And, and to think, to think that you were because you did theater in high school, right? The thing that you were a theater kid in high school, on the east coast, and you still didn't feel like, you know, it was for you to be who you are.

3 (1h 19m 12s):
No, I know I did. You know, and I did the thing that a lot of us did back then was like, oh, I'm bisexual. You know, before, before gay, just to test the water, you know, how is everybody gonna react to this? And then like six months later, I got a nod as gay, you know, like,

1 (1h 19m 28s):
Were you a good actor and singer? Do, would you say you were good?

3 (1h 19m 31s):
I was all right. I mean, I don't think I was great by any stretch of the imagination. I mean, singing, I made I'll show a chorus one year or two years, I guess. So that was five minutes. I did choir. I mean, I did act once at the theater school, it was just, it was a friend of mine in theater studies program did fathers and sons or something. And I was the father in that it was the most nerve wracking experience of my life because you know, doing it in this classroom with all these acting students, like here I am a stage manager, you know, student acting. You were probably

1 (1h 20m 8s):
Better than all of us combined.

2 (1h 20m 10s):
I'm not even probably. Yeah.

1 (1h 20m 13s):
So you, you, you didn't apply to schools as an actor at all? No, no schools. Okay. Even though you acted in high school. Okay. You knew you

2 (1h 20m 21s):
Applied to other schools for theater studies.

3 (1h 20m 24s):
Well, I put her, I applied for, so I applied to Carnegie Mellon as a directing major. Cause I thought I'll maybe go on to directing, but I'm glad that didn't work out. I don't want to be director and also applied to Hofstra. That was like my face school was Hofstra. My parents really wanted me to apply to Rutgers being in Germany, but I did not apply to one state school in New Jersey. I wanted to get out of Jersey and I used to have family in Chicago, so I I'd known Chicago. And so when I got the brochure for DePaul and my, I can teach at times like, oh, that's a really great school because at the time we were like the number three,

1 (1h 21m 5s):
Two or three,

3 (1h 21m 5s):
Yeah. In the nation, you know, the prestige of going to that school was great. And I think maybe because, you know, there's a theater studies program at that time, they were just accepting almost any that program. So

2 (1h 21m 19s):
Can we say for a second that it, that actually these rankings were all bullshit because right. Because I remember that too. I remember being so confused. I got into DePaul, I went and I told my drama teacher, she was so excited. And then, then a month later she said, you're saying DePaul, but it's DePaul. And I said, no, it's DePaul. It's, that's a different school. And she goes, oh, I've never heard of that school. Of course my heart sank. But honestly I'm sure it's a much better school now than it was then. And it's not even in the rankings anymore. So actually now that I'm thinking about it, what is the criteria for those?

3 (1h 21m 57s):
Oh, I have no idea. No idea. I don't even know where it is in the rankings anymore, but

2 (1h 22m 3s):
It's not even in the top 25. I don't think.

3 (1h 22m 6s):
I just remember the time the, you know, the, the messaging from the school was, was like, we're one of the top theater schools in,

1 (1h 22m 14s):
Right? Yeah. Oh, sorry. I was just gonna say, and you know, like hearing you talk about the resources that we did have at the theater school, even in that crap, whole building, and then the theater, you know, the theater at the end, the Merle Ruskin, which was not a crap hole, I thought was really beautiful. It's making me think like, oh, maybe, maybe it wasn't, wasn't so bad. Like I, and not that I always go around saying it was so bad, but I just don't think, I think I didn't have a broader view. It helps to have a broader view of like our education as undergrads compared to like other schools, which, you know, sounds like they didn't eat.

1 (1h 22m 55s):
I mean, at least we got a chance to fricking perform. Can you imagine graduating from a fucking theater school and having never done a play like on a stage? Oh my God. Terrible, terrible, terrible. So anyway, what were you going to say beans?

2 (1h 23m 9s):
No, I, I was actually just going to say we're, I want to be respectful of your time. We're going to have to wrap up unless there was anything that you wanted to make sure to tell us about.

3 (1h 23m 18s):
There was one thing that I wanted to talk about was the auditions, because for some reason, the stage management stage managers were part of audition process through the private. And one thing when you were, when I was listening to a podcast that you were talking about that just made me laugh with stage managers would purposely sit in our office knowing that all the actors were stewing in the lobby, waiting for those contact lists. And we would purposely walk through the stage manager and office across the street to the computer lab, just to Reilly all up

1 (1h 23m 55s):
So that we knew it was like happening. Like there was discussions happening, or

3 (1h 23m 60s):
Every time we would open the door, like everybody in the lungs like, oh, and it puts you left. And so we purposely like go across the street. And we did that. We would do that a couple of times just to mess the message and that, that pops to my head. I just thought it was a funny,

1 (1h 24m 11s):
And you know what serves us, right? Like, come on, like go do something like what the fuck

2 (1h 24m 17s):
The modern, the modern version of the cast list is when I refresh our downloads to see

1 (1h 24m 24s):
It's refreshing my email after I've sent a query letter or a script to someone it's like, it's so dumb. It does.

2 (1h 24m 31s):
It's a cast list somewhere. There's always a CA and everything is an audition, right? It's

1 (1h 24m 36s):
Like,

4 (1h 24m 45s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina <em></em> for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our [e-mail]. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.

What is I Survived Theatre School?

We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?