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The Catch Up Podcast brings you candid conversations with industry leaders, consultants, and change-makers from the Microsoft Dynamics and tech ecosystem. Hosted by Phillip Blackmore, Sales Director at Catch Resource Management, each episode dives into the real stories behind business transformation, career pivots, and scaling success. Expect thoughtful interviews, practical insights, and honest reflections. Brought to you by Catch Resource Management, a leading UK recruitment specialist for Microsoft Dynamics and ERP talent, this podcast is your inside track to the people shaping the future of enterprise technology.
[00:00:00] Phillip Blackmore: You are listening to the Catch Up podcast today with myself, Philip Blackmore. I'm joined by Steve Snowden, who talks us through his journey.
[00:00:08] Steve Snowdon: So my ERP history goes back quite some way, to be honest, and as a contractor, you're sitting there thinking, where will my next contract come from? There seems to be a lot going on in that sector at the moment. I want to get good at that.
[00:00:19] Phillip Blackmore: Did your role change a little bit at that point? I dunno, were you still doing some consulting at that point? Were you still on site?
[00:00:25] Steve Snowdon: I still do. I still do some now actually, which I don't think is actually a good idea, but I just don't think, leave it behind. You get your data right, and you get that first template right? Then everything else will become a lot more straightforward. And then it was time to make a decision. Was I gonna stay in business and change or was it time for some ER.
[00:00:44] Phillip Blackmore: From where he sits today currently as founder director of Snowden Consulting through and back to his early years as an independent Microsoft Dynamics manufacturing solution architect.
Steve, thank you so much for joining me this afternoon. It's an absolute pleasure. It's been a little while since I think you, I've directly spoke, but I know you still speak with a colleague or two of mine at Catch. Um, one of the reasons I thought it'd be a fascinating conversation with you today is I appreciate today you are.
Where you are as founder, director, owner of Snowden Consulting Limited. But I think a really interesting story for the audience is kind of the journey that you went on. Uh, how how'd you get there, and then obviously then growing the business as well as you have. Establishing it as as, as well as you have also.
So if you wouldn't mind just a little bit of a synopsis, you know, how, where did you get into the tech space, what was the first role, and then maybe what was your first touch point with the Microsoft Dynamics product? So yeah, if you're able to start with that, that, that, that would be a fascinating place to start.
That's okay.
[00:01:46] Steve Snowdon: No. Yeah, no problem at all. And then good to see you, Phil. So my ERP history goes back quite some way, to be honest. I was working in, um, after various jobs, after sort of like leaving, um, doing a levels and things like that. I eventually got a job in a pharmaceutical plant and, um, we were making job delivery devices, things like that.
On an, on an old as 400 system,
[00:02:06] Phillip Blackmore: Oh yeah. JBA.
[00:02:08] Steve Snowdon: Yeah, yeah. It, it was fast, but um, yeah, that was about it. Um.
[00:02:13] Phillip Blackmore: few of those knocking about now. Steve, would you believe it?
[00:02:16] Steve Snowdon: I know and we, they still pe people still hold onto them for dear
[00:02:19] Phillip Blackmore: Yes, I do. I love it.
[00:02:22] Steve Snowdon: So yeah. So I was working in the pharmaceutical client and I was doing injection molding and high-speed assembly and those sorts of things. And, um, I managed to, um, have an injury to my leg and as they were doing their SAP implementation. So, um, I was sort of like said, oh, well you can't do anything else.
Can you help with this? Um, and. Piqued my interest a little bit. Really? What's this ERP stuff? You know, we're going back 25, 30 years. Um,
[00:02:49] Phillip Blackmore: pre, sort of 1995 in that sort of 19 five. Well, wow. Yeah. Okay.
[00:02:53] Steve Snowdon: Yeah. And, um, yeah, so. I learned a lot during the implementation. Um, you know, they were a fairly large organization that was doing the project, saw some of the problems they were having, helped with a lot of the things on there.
Um, but then my sort of time came to an end there really, um, you know, through choice. It was a case of career progression and I didn't really realize how much I'd learned about SAP and all of the processes and everything else. And then I joined a large construction company who also had SAP and um. When I went there as a continuous improvement manager, which is pretty much really my sort of like first love to be perfectly honest.
That's the bit that I enjoy even in what we do today and um. Yeah, when I got there and in a company of like 2000 people, they said, we've got all of these continuous improvement initiatives, but we don't know how to find the money. We dunno where to look. And they said, we heard, you know, quite a lot about SAP.
And yeah, that became my role for. Or four years of, you know, how much is a plant spending overtime rates, scrap reduction, and all those sorts of things. That actual company then decided it was then splitting in half. They were gonna sell half of their business. And in order to do that, they needed to move to a different ERP system for one half of the company.
So they were, uh, SAP migration to, at the time, a x 2009.
[00:04:16] Phillip Blackmore: Okay. Right, fine. And um, did they go out to a consulting partner? Did you get involved in that selection piece as well?
[00:04:22] Steve Snowdon: I didn't do this election piece, but one, my first job actually as part, as part of ops, the change team at the time was to, um, go and collect all of the processes from the 52 plants around the UK and make sure that everybody operated in the same way. So it was a year's project and we gathered a thousands different processes, me and a small team.
It was really great fun actually. Sorry, just going around.
[00:04:44] Phillip Blackmore: Yeah. Absolutely.
[00:04:46] Steve Snowdon: We then rationalized that down to 400 processes. And then when the partner did come in, um, we said, this is the system we want based on these processes here. And I was given a lead like project manager type position for the supply chain and operations side of the implementation.
[00:05:03] Phillip Blackmore: Yeah.
[00:05:03] Steve Snowdon: Um, learned a lot, um, on AX 2009. Um. Great Go live. To be honest, it was 52 sites. I think we did 26 and 26. Two separate go lives, 18 months later. Um, live. And then it was time to make a decision. Was I gonna stay in business and change or was it time for some ERP?
[00:05:23] Phillip Blackmore: Yeah, and, and that was it at that point that you did then step into that sort of pure ERP space step, stepping away from the continuous improvement piece?
[00:05:31] Steve Snowdon: Yeah, I joined a gold partner. Um, I actually took a, I remember taking a pay cut to go and do that 'cause I decided this was my path and, um, I was with two or three partners for, you know, a couple of years. Um, and then some contract roles came up
[00:05:47] Phillip Blackmore: Sure. When would this be? When would that roughly have been, Steve, just out of interest in terms of timelines, if you're looking back now,
[00:05:54] Steve Snowdon: Looking back now.
[00:05:54] Phillip Blackmore: 15 years ago,
[00:05:57] Steve Snowdon: Yeah, probably, probably about 15 to 16 years ago now. Yeah.
[00:06:00] Phillip Blackmore: so, so you would've probably, I was talking to an individual about this the other day. You would've probably been in that, that early bulk of people that did go contracting, because 15 years ago, 16 years ago, I remember in the Microsoft dynamic space, there was a handful of contractors.
It wasn't what I would say as the market wasn't as big, there weren't as many people in it. Percentage wise, I don't, you know, it, it may have been similar, but definitely. Did you, did you feel when you were going out at that time, that you were one of, I guess, a handful of contractors at that time going out into the market?
[00:06:30] Steve Snowdon: It was a lot of fun back in those days because, um, there wasn't many of us and you know, I used to actually pick projects sometimes just, um, not to do with the project, but to do with the location. So I'd do one in Europe all globally and then, um, then I'd come back and do one in the UK 'cause I thought, well, I haven't worked there before.
And, um, and then I used to choose sectors as well, so I'd go, I'll do a manufacturing one. I haven't done a retail one. I'll do that. Not for profit. So I got, I got around,
[00:06:55] Phillip Blackmore: yeah. But that, but it's an interesting and a few of the sort of points that you've made there in terms of, I guess some of the things that have evolved in time and, you know, COVID affected this, but, you know, your, your talk and I could see there the enjoyment of the traveling piece.
You know, you mentioned on that first project 52 sites and how it was good fun going round and sort of. Being on these sites and being part of a team, and, and that's kind of what it, and it is like that today in cer, certain aspects, but definitely it did feel quite different 15 years ago. Does that resonate a little bit with you?
Do you think that's right, or, or hasn't it changed, and I'm just, because I'm talking from an outsider's point of view, you know, you, you're still in it day to day and have your team delivery it, but does it feel quite different when you look back at, you know, 15, 10 years ago to today?
[00:07:41] Steve Snowdon: Oh a hundred percent. You know, I can look back to some of the contracts that I did at the time and you know, I'd be away Monday to Thursday at least, and that would be on client site.
And I was there for two and a half years, you know, and it is COVID that changed it. Um, you know, there is a lot more.
Teams. I think also everything's very, very expensive now. You know, hotel, back in those days you probably get 50, 60 quid. Now you are looking at 2, 3, 400 pounds per night in a hotel, which doesn't really work as well. But it's a shame in some ways because to me, the best projects are the ones where you have got those people in a room working together, getting those relationships.
And yeah, you can do a lot on teams, but you can't quite get to that level of camaraderie and sort of like all fighting for that goal towards the end.
[00:08:25] Phillip Blackmore: Yeah. And I, and I think that, that, that is quite a seismic shift in change. You know, we, we, we've noticed it on our side of the fence, you know, previously, I, I remember vividly trying to organize, you know, interviews you, you know, you mentioned when you started working for a gold partner, and I would remember trying to organize an interview for a consultant who was traveling like you Monday to Thursday with like a practice manager who was also traveling various parts.
And we used to be sort of. Organizing interviews on a Friday or a Thursday evening, you know, trying to tie up where someone was driving to where they were going home and try and get 'em to meet at a service station to have interviews. And the logistical part of our job was, was actually a significant part of our job as well, like making the logistics of interviews work and to be honest, over the space of that.
As soon as COVID hit, that just was eradicated. And we've, and it's never really gone back to that. It hasn't because of the ability to do things via video and teams, which, as you say, there are benefits and there are positives to it, but that human piece, that personality, relationship building piece, you do, you, you do lose a bit of that, don't you?
[00:09:30] Steve Snowdon: Yeah, I think where I am, where you miss it the most and it, it sometimes realizing sort of like the, the impact of the projects that you're working on. So when I was doing sort of like the work with some of the, the bigger not-for-profits and you're going out to Africa. And you are saying, right, I'm putting this system in so that these people can get perhaps services that they're critical for them.
You know? Absolutely vital. You don't see that on a teams call. You might hear about it and you might think, oh, that might be useful for them. But being firsthand out there is a completely different level.
[00:09:58] Phillip Blackmore: Yeah. Yeah. Seeing it firsthand and actually the impact it can make of the positive impact it can make doing this system's implementation. Right. And, and, and obviously the alternative side is if it's not done right, the, the negative impact it can have from an organization like that is seismic. And when you talk about, again, Steve, that sort of covering that piece, did you make a very conscious effort when you looked at.
When you were consulting to try and work across different industries, was was it purely a sort of piece of, for your own, um, for your own knowledge, for your furthering your own sort of, uh, I guess ability and capabilities? Or were you ever thinking kind of longer term, you know, in terms of where you are at Snowden now?
Consulting Limited. Were you ever sort of thinking down the line, you know, I, I, I, I need to do this for this or very much at the time, was it just purely I want to provide myself with as much knowledge, as much exposure to various different clients and industries as possible to be as well-rounded a consultant as you can be.
[00:10:59] Steve Snowdon: It was a bit of both actually. So, um, and some of them were actually driven by sort of changes in the technology that was coming along. Um, so in the earlier stages when I was like, manufacturing was what I'd grown up on and um, in the various different places. And I'd done that a few times, but then retail really quite interested me.
So that was definitely a choice to. There's another skillset here. Um, and as a contractor you're sitting there thinking, where will my next contract come from? There seems to be a lot going on in that sector at the moment. I want to get good at that. I've always been that person that wants to be really good at it.
If I'm doing it, not, um, not sort of like I'll just come in and do this small part. I'll come in and I'll, A lot of the times in the earlier projects, I'd often end up as the sort of PM on the project as well as doing the consultancy part
[00:11:44] Phillip Blackmore: Sure.
[00:11:45] Steve Snowdon: when, um, 2012 was like. Coming to the end of what, what that would be implemented and D 365 came out.
Um, I was very keen not to be left behind. You know, it's, um, contract. When you're in that contract space, you need to keep your skills up to keep up there. So, so when the, the big not-for-profit one came along, that only was in something that I thought that looks incredibly interesting, but it's also going on D 365 and it was pretty much one of the first ones to even attempt it.
[00:12:12] Phillip Blackmore: Yep,
[00:12:13] Steve Snowdon: So yeah. So that was, that was the main driver behind that particular one.
[00:12:17] Phillip Blackmore: Yeah. Understood. And Steve, when you look at, I guess the early experiences you had that you mentioned within, um, I think the pharmaceutical business or the, or the, the SAP business you went to where there was 52 sites, some of your learnings there going out, being on the road, um, being part of a team, you know, mapping those processes, whatever it was, a thousand down to 400.
Are there any learnings from that? That work that you kind of, that you still look at and take into your, your work today? Sort of, you know, things that you learned, things that you saw that worked well, or you know, the other side things that you think, oh, you know, I, that didn't work so well there. So, you know, you learn good and bad, but do you still think, uh, you know, you look back at that and there were some really sort of strong learnings that sort of resonate with you and how you, you deliver projects today?
[00:13:08] Steve Snowdon: Yeah, there was a very big shift. So in this sort of like earlier years of when we were doing implementation, it was very much a case of we will look at what your as is processes are, and we will map that to the system and we will look at what your two B processes are and you will design them with us and you'll know exactly what you are getting.
And then over the last few years there's been quite a shift from a lot of people that have sort of said, we are going to follow what the, what is in the ERP system. We're gonna use their processes. And that's, um. That's how we're going to operate. And that only really works up to a point, you know, if every business did exactly the same thing all of the time, then if we, that you wouldn't have your competitive advantages and all of those things.
So, yeah. So the, the best implementation still do a. Take that effort, but there's time, there's cost, there's all of those sorts of things. But yeah, just adopting exactly what is in the system. Don't get me wrong, you don't want to go and completely customize everything that you do, but um, yeah, you do need to sit there and think about what you want, and it needs to be more focused on what you actually want to achieve as opposed to this is what the system does, and we'll just follow that path.
[00:14:11] Phillip Blackmore: Fine. And, and is that something, I guess from your perspective at Snowden, is that where I guess you look to add that real value add piece to a customer when you, when you're looking at that, it's kind of, yes, this is what Microsoft Dynamics does, but also we're gonna look at you as a business, you, your business, your business processes, and kind of, you know, make the best of the two.
[00:14:37] Steve Snowdon: Exactly that. So, you know, sometimes you go to a business and you, you look at the process that they've got at the moment and you think, wow, that can be seriously improved by taking the standard. And, you know, we'll, we'll come onto it shortly, but one of the things that we've really done here is we've taken a lot of people from end users, from industry that sort of know what business processes are so that we can have that discussion and say, look.
This is what the standard does, this is what you do, but we actually think there's a, there's a better way. And um, we can take you through that and explain what that is and, you know, talk about the impacts that that can have in other areas of the system and those parts as well. There's a much bigger drive towards process now with everything that's going on, you know.
When I said beforehand there was, you know, we'll take what's in the system. That's gonna change quite a lot now because process is going to be key as it always has been, but even more key with the advent of AI and things like that.
[00:15:31] Phillip Blackmore: Fine. Fine. And then Steve, if you look at, for you at a personal level, when I look at, so kind of, you know, we talked about it, the journey that you sort of went on from, you know, the role that you performed early years into, I guess if I described you as a D 365 or a Microsoft Dynamics manufacturing retail solution architect, how, what was the kind of biggest learning curve for you from going from Steve Snowden?
I'm on a project, I'm me. I'm delivering as a solution architect to Steve Snowden, owner consultancy director of Snowden Consulting with team and building. You know, I think for sort of anyone that sat there, you know, there may well be people out there sort of looking at it and thinking of themselves as I'm a contractor. Where do I go? Like, where does my career go from here? And I think, you know, there's a great example, Steve, you know, that's, that's what you were, you were a contractor at a point in time. Had you always thought about doing what you're doing today, as in that was always a driver for you and in the back of your mind, and did you sort of build up to it?
How did it kind of work for you?
[00:16:45] Steve Snowdon: To be honest, it wasn't something that was on my radar for quite a long time. You know, a lot of the time when I was on projects, they, they were full on and you'd get to the end of one and you'd be like, okay, I'm ready for a bit of a break now and we'll go onto the next one. But, um, there came a stage after doing the contracting for six or seven years.
I just didn't really feel like it was quite enough. I was being offered lots of different contracts all of the time and.
[00:17:07] Phillip Blackmore: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:09] Steve Snowdon: Sitting there looking at some of them thinking, well, I'd really like to do that, but I can't do that 'cause I'm on this one. Um, and we, it started, you know, well it couldn't have started any smaller.
It started with one person and, um, somebody had a conversation with me and said, I, I think I know somebody that could be your great first employee. And, um, yeah. And it became, that became my first person and their brother became my second person. So, yeah.
[00:17:34] Phillip Blackmore: Absolutely. And then was in those early days, you know, did it, did it feel quite different or was, did it happen a little bit organically in terms of, you know, 'cause you, you had a good network within the market. You were well known within the market. You were, you were very well respected for the job that you did in the market.
You know, I always thought if we had a manufacturing senior level. Lead architect type role, retail, whatever it may be, experience. You were often one of the first people that I'd sort of drop your note and check in and say, Hey Steve, you know, that kind of, you know, that journey from being you, Steve, to being sort of those early days of a consultancy.
Were there quite some big learning curves there in those, in that early year for you and, and, and out of interest, you know, if you'd be able to share some of those, it'd be, be interesting to hear.
[00:18:23] Steve Snowdon: Yeah, almost too many. But actually I think, um, I think you have to take your learnings and also take the, and also a bit of realization about actually what you're probably okay at as well. Um, so I've always been a, had that sort of drive to say, I will get it done. And if it's gonna mean I'm there till two o'clock in the morning, I'll get it done.
May not be the most. Productive way when you start, um, employing other people, even if you just employ one, then suddenly you are a business and you have responsibility. So it's okay. Yeah, I need to make sure they, they're getting here safely. I need to make sure that they're working with me and they're learning these things.
And if I look, took my time back again, I will change a lot of those things, you know? Um. You know, but when you're starting from a position of one, you only have so much flexibility. So I don't beat myself up about it too much, but in hindsight, I should have been more prepared for that first person and developed them.
But in other ways they, they probably learned a great deal from that experience as well. Um, project wise, you know, you're not gonna win too many projects, um, with yourself and your sidekick in those early stages so that it's more about. They're helping you. Um, they're help. Then when they're ready, you can introduce 'em to a client and they can help a bit there as well.
But it's quite, it's quite slow to start off with
[00:19:35] Phillip Blackmore: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:19:36] Steve Snowdon: and, yeah.
[00:19:38] Phillip Blackmore: And it's, and I, and I guess when you say it was quite slow to start off with to where you're at now and we'll, we'll, we'll get onto that in a little bit more detail shortly. But when you look at the timelines from it, kind of you starting or sort of being more of Snowden Consulting rather than Steve Snowden, I am an independent contractor and it being, you have one and two employees.
The kind of time from sort of being one or two employees. To having sort of 10 employees and like then sort of I guess what you would, or maybe we would call sort of actually seriously sort of winning pieces of work or bidding for pieces of work. What was that kind of timeline like from having sort of employee one to kind of being at a point where you kind of said, you know, I'm running a full and proper sort of consulting business here.
You know, we're going to bridge projects. You've brought in, you know, three, four, someone who's a right hand person, um, to help you day to day with the strategy and the running of the business. What was that timeline like, Steve, if you wouldn't mind, kind of, you know,
[00:20:34] Steve Snowdon: That was three years, but we had COVID right in the middle of it, which sort of, you know, any plans that we had were like, okay, um, what we doing now? Yeah. But we were lucky enough to have some things that were going on in COVID. So we, we maintained that sort of eight to 10 people. Um. Up to a point. But then, um, but then there was a conversation who, with the person that's my commercial director now.
And, um, she came and saw me and said, look, you've got good reputation, but at the moment the work that you're picking up tends to be, we'll go and sort something out that didn't go quite right on somebody else's project or bits and pieces there. And really, I, I sort of realized myself that I didn't know how to get into that space, um, on my own to be.
You know, in the mix for RFPs, projects myself.
[00:21:24] Phillip Blackmore: Sure. And was that quite a big learning curve then, Steve? As in when you get to that point, as in where commercial director comes along to you and says, right, Steve, you know, you. As opposed to exactly what you say, you know, and it does happen quite organically from the, you know, the, the, you know, you go in, you help a customer and they say to you, Steve, well can you help us with this?
And then, you know, if you're in a certain industry or you've got certain specialism, then someone talks to someone and then, you know, they reach out to you, Steve, actually Steve, could you help us? And you know, you, you're fitting resources onto projects. But to then take that sort of, I guess. That model to then a much more strategic piece of, okay, we're now actually gonna start bidding and looking to win brand new Greenfield projects.
How did, did your role change a little bit at that point? Did you have to step back from, I guess, what maybe you were doing day-to-day, which is, I dunno, were you still doing some consulting at that point? Were you still on site?
[00:22:18] Steve Snowdon: Yeah, no, I still do. I still do some now actually, which I don't think is actually a good idea, but I just don't think to leave it behind. But, um, yeah.
[00:22:27] Phillip Blackmore: enjoy it?
[00:22:29] Steve Snowdon: Sometimes, you know, I, I did a go live a couple of months ago and, um, it was, it was nice to be back on it and, you know, and I'm still like, I still have to keep my solution architects mb 700 up to date 'cause I'm not quite ready to let that go yet.
But it's getting close now 'cause I'm running out of time. But yeah, in those, in the early days, you, you know, when you're starting trying to start something from scratch, you know, you, you're wearing many hats. So, so yes, we, we've got a commercial director, but we were doing sales between us. You know, it's, even to this day, a lot of the projects we get, some of them are from the sales team, some of them are from myself, from connections and previous customers.
So, yeah, there is, um, there's a lot to learn. And actually the, the, the Microsoft side of things and having the relationships there and, you know, relationships with other partners and building those sorts of things, they're key to what we do now.
[00:23:19] Phillip Blackmore: absolutely.
[00:23:20] Steve Snowdon: then the new skills.
[00:23:21] Phillip Blackmore: Yeah, absolutely. And when I sort of, as we're talking there and sort of thinking about that conversation, you know, when you are, you know, you've got, uh, potentially leads coming in through various different sources. You know, it may be like a another partner that says, Hey Steve, you know, we don't really have these skills at the moment, or We're fully utilize, could you give us one or two of your people and help manage that?
Or, or it may be a. Specific thing where the commercial director goes out and wins a brand new greenfield piece of project. Are there any, when you kind of make that first connection, that first communication with a client, are there ever any clear red flags when you have early conversations or you have those conversations where you think, I may face some significant challenges with this project or with this customer that, you know, it's just 'cause uh, again, I sort of look at it and it's, it's, and I can imagine.
Commercially as a business, you bring revenue in from having customers and having people on site and chargeable, and you deliver and you have statements of work and you deliver statements of work for people. So I can imagine, you know, someone comes along and says, Steve, we want you to help us. Here's a statement of work.
Great. Brilliant. I've got that. But are there any, any times where you've sat there or are there times where you sit there and you look and think and what are those potential red flags? I think it's, it'd be interesting to sort of get your insights into that.
[00:24:40] Steve Snowdon: The big red flags for me these days. Um. We need information to be able to give that SOW and a lot of the times, or, you know, not a lot of the time, but quite a lot of the time, um, when we're talking about clients and we want a specific level of information, it's, it's so that we can actually give them what they're, what they're asking for.
And sometimes game information is really harder than it should be. And if you are saying to somebody, how many countries do you operate in? And they're like, well, well why does that matter that you're sitting there thinking, alright, this is gonna be more difficult than it should be.
[00:25:10] Phillip Blackmore: Yeah.
[00:25:11] Steve Snowdon: If you're in fiscal countries or if you are in, you know, you've got strange manufacturing operations or massive distribution channels and things like that, that, that you are not not telling us about, and then you want to give you a price, um, based on what you've told us, it's not gonna be right.
And that it creates a, it can create issues, you know, as you get into the project and you say.
Your scope is very different to what we first thought. Um, so we have to battle a little at the first stages to make sure we get enough information to be able to say, we'll do it. This is what it will look like.
[00:25:42] Phillip Blackmore: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:43] Steve Snowdon: Um, these days, more of the challenges. I think there's a lot of challenge these days around what people can do internally and what people can't. Um, when we were in back in the sort of like world of 2012 and that was what they were getting and you weren't linking quite so many systems together and things like that, it was easier.
But now there is quite a, a thought that we'll do that internally. We'll cover this, we'll cover that. And very often you sit there and you think, I don't think they'll be able to do that. And it's not because of level of levels of intelligence or levels of skills. It's literally a case of. This is complicated and we work in it all of the time and we find it complicated.
[00:26:20] Phillip Blackmore: Yeah, I
[00:26:22] Steve Snowdon: So yeah, they're the, they're the, tend to be the issues more and more, but you know, you learn and do evolve a bit, and that's where we're trying to put more focus on doing things better, showing people how to do things, giving them tools to take things further on instead.
[00:26:36] Phillip Blackmore: Yeah, absolutely. And Steve, that sort of statement of work piece do, do, do you ever get to a point, and I'm sure you have done, but where you've had to walk away from something? 'cause quite simply you haven't, I mean, uh, it was funny 'cause when you were talking to me then and, and at a different level. But we, I have, and sometimes day to day, a similar challenge.
We have a client bring us up and I go, hi, Phil, um, can you help us with a requirement? And I go, yeah, you know, maybe what's the salary? What's the onsite present? What's the location? And when I'm getting, oh, I'm not really sure what the sort of salary is. Well, you know what, what do I think? And I'm kind of going, well, I think I know what you need to pay, but you also need to know if you've got the budget to pay it.
So there's no point in me going out and spending a day, a week, two weeks. Sourcing resources for you at a certain salary bracket if you haven't got approval to hire that level, or sometimes a day rate piece. It might be someone says, I want a contractor, and they sort of give you a I'll pay market rates.
You go, okay, well market rates for a functional consultant. As you're aware, Steve could be, depending on someone's years of experience from 500 pounds to a thousand pounds a day, depending on what you're after. And it just, it just resonated with me because it is so vital that you do have that depth of.
Detailing information to be able to do a proper job. We can't help a customer without, and I don't need a four page job specification, but, but a brief and a clear guideline about what you're paying. And I guess in some ways, you know, your briefs are much more detailed, your statements work, but I'm, I'm guessing that's the point, isn't it?
And I, and, and the other sort of. Point I'd like to, or question I'd like to ask you, have you ever walked away from something where you've just said, I, I can't, I can't do this because you can't give them a natural statement of work, or you don't want to go into a project going, well, we could, this could be a massive loss leader.
'cause if we commit to doing this and we, you know, we, we could cause us all sorts of problem down the line
[00:28:25] Steve Snowdon: Yes, we have had to. Um, and it happens more often than you'd think, actually. Um, one of the biggest conversations we have a lot is, um, business Central or F-N-S-E-M and those sorts of
[00:28:36] Phillip Blackmore: Yeah. Okay.
[00:28:37] Steve Snowdon: yeah, that's, that can be a, a challenging conversation because obviously one is. A cheaper license fee and, you know, and other, and you know, that people are attracted to that.
I'm gonna be able to do this cheaper. We're gonna save money. But, um, but I do think we're, you know, we're in a place now where you've got a lot of this sort of like the Instagram where everybody says everything's amazing and LinkedIn, Instagram, and, you know, so, you know, we we're using the, the Guide 3, 6 5 platform now, so we can actually do a direct comparison between the two and give people some factual information.
[00:29:07] Phillip Blackmore: Yeah, yeah,
[00:29:07] Steve Snowdon: We do, we do still get them where people say, oh. We, you should must be able to do it for that price. We can't believe how expensive it's going to be. And you're like, yeah, but there's no realism here in what's actually got to be done. You know? You can't skip testing your system, you can't skip people being trained or you will pay for it afterwards.
My golden rule really?
[00:29:27] Phillip Blackmore: Yeah.
[00:29:28] Steve Snowdon: If we can, if we, if you can get to in the high nineties for your UAT and you get, and you focus on getting to that stage, then all the money that you think you've spent on that phase, you get it back in spades from having a great go live afterwards. Um, but yeah, people don't necessarily want to put that bit of extra effort in all that extra cycle.
They say, well, we're, we're going live then, and that's it. And, you know, we'll save, we'll save some money there and three months later it's still, oh, our month end process isn't great. And things like that. So, yeah.
[00:29:57] Phillip Blackmore: and I guess from what you're saying, Steve, often people will just end up paying. Probably evidently more just further down the line. So it's kind of, that shortcut actually becomes totally cost ineffective because you end up just paying X amount of thousands more because you're having to fix problems further down the line.
Co co coupled with the fact that you've gone live with the system that users are probably griping about. Which, which again is no good thing because. Ideally, I always think about it, and again, from an external point of view, is when we have it a little bit, we're, we're changing our CRM system shortly at the moment, but for me, when I think about implementing a new system to our workforce.
I want the users to be like, this is great, this is brilliant. Like this has improved, uh, this has improved what I do day to day. It makes my job easier and more enjoyable. Um, and I guess sometimes cutting those corners and not testing things and then having issues, you know, running a, you know, accounts at the end of the month or whatever it may be.
And if you're getting issues and things aren't correct, I can imagine the users then are probably a little dissatisfied.
[00:30:59] Steve Snowdon: I did a project, um, I think it was about three years ago, three, four years ago now. And you know, the testing on it was exemplary, you know, and everything was prepared. Everyone was trained. And then, um, it came to the go live and we were gonna kick off the first store at midnight on the first night. And everyone was like, I wonder how this is going to go.
And it was brilliant. You know, it was, we, we, we were going live in a country a day. And everyone was like, and, but the whole atmosphere of the whole project was, you know, people cheering. And I'm like, well, this is a bit strange, but, um, it's p but it was, it was great. And that's, if you can get to that place then for whatever you want to do afterwards, people always remember that.
[00:31:35] Phillip Blackmore: No, absolutely, and I think it, it, it again, what you've said there, Steve, 'cause I think sometimes people have been through these projects before and had, and had negative experiences. I, I guess it's like anything in the modern world, it's, you know, it's like sort of restaurant reviews. People always like to leave negative reviews and, you know, systems, people like to tell you the horror stories, but.
People do go through them and probably more regularly than they, they ideally should do. So I think when you, you get that reaction, it's probably 'cause there's a, you know, there maybe has been some scar tissue before where people have been on an implementation. I mean, we, we, we've been working with a customer over the last three or four years, large global customer that had tried two or three times previously with a Dynamics project over various versions.
And it, failed is a strong word, but certainly hadn't achieved anywhere near the level. Um, success that they wanted to achieve and where they're at now, it's, it's pulled apart, you know, that they're on this system and this rollout. It's, it's hugely successful. And the sense of, um, I guess sort of community and, um, I guess pride in the team is, is significant.
People are really proud to be on the project and doing what they're doing, and it's, it, it, it's, it's really good to see when you hear about that and it's nice to hear that, you know, that you guys are being involved in such great success stories. When you think about Steve, I guess. So we bring up to modern day.
You, you, you know, if, or or sort of where, where you were at Snowden, you know, early days, a handful of employees, you had COVID hits, but you managed to keep going. You're kind of at 10 employees. What is one of the biggest challenges or what are some of the biggest challenges for you as a. You know, if owner, director, consultancy, leader of a business, what are the biggest challenges that you, that you kind of face day in, day out, week in, week out and year on year is kind of in the back of your mind as a challenge.
And then I guess then on the flip side to that is, how'd you kind of look to, I guess, overcome those challenges? Where, what can you do and how can you kind of, I guess, mitigate any risks that might be there?
[00:33:32] Steve Snowdon: Yeah, so I think there's a couple of things to that. So I think the first part really is, um, about when you're coming from that company of 10, you know, in those early stages, it's about. I've got 10 people and I want enough work for 10 people. You're not actually sitting there thinking. I need to build a pipeline for the next two or three years.
You're just sitting there thinking, I want enough work for those people. And that's pretty much the same. So we've, we've sort of like had the a hundred percent growth from the 10 to 20 in one year and, and et cetera. And even when you get to like the twenties, 20 fives, you're still sitting there thinking, okay, I've got.
I've got enough projects, everybody's good. We'll win another project. And that's all good. When you start getting past the fifties and the 60 marks that sort of flips on its head and you're like, we, we need a pipeline now.
[00:34:12] Phillip Blackmore: Yeah.
[00:34:12] Steve Snowdon: that going. So yeah. So that's, so that's, um, that's been a challenge. The, in the day-to-day side.
Some of it's personal as well as sort of like business to be honest. Um. A lot of the people that, um, are on the team are, are people I'd worked with before they'd actually said, I'd like to come and work with you. That it was great we on, on that project. So yeah, sort of like that separation between being a boss and being a friend can be quite tough, if I'm
[00:34:36] Phillip Blackmore: yeah,
[00:34:37] Steve Snowdon: Um, and yeah, and getting older and not being grumpy and those sorts of things. But, um, yeah, and I'm a very. It's about changing my own mindset on things. Well, because I'm a very, if I see something, I just wanna get it done, which is great when you're doing ERP implementations, but on other tasks, it, you know, sometimes a little bit more caution required or people don't work in the same way, or, you know, there, there's that emotional side of things that needs to come into it as well.
And then not just say those things, but I'm always told we've got a, a great culture in the company. So, um, and we have great. Retention levels, but that from a personal side, that that bit's quite difficult to navigate through.
[00:35:17] Phillip Blackmore: Yep.
[00:35:18] Steve Snowdon: From a business side, it's, it's just how much things keep evolving. You know, when we first set up, we were an F-N-S-E-M partner.
Um, that was our 10 20 people. It was all F-N-S-C-M, warehouse manufacturing, retail, but it wasn't enough. Um, so, you know. Where's the data migration people? Where's the project management team? Where's your, you're gonna be using power apps, you're gonna be using data first and to build that rounded team.
Now you're not gonna do that with 10 or 20 people. And that's why we're now the size we are now, because our mission really last year was to make sure that we've got the structure, um, to support those, that level of people. 'cause it can't just be me doing all of the performance reviews and all of those, but, um, but making, you know, you can actually use the Microsoft stack. And do anything that people ask for. And now that, that's been a, a challenge, bringing all of those different skill sets together, getting them work across there. And the technology is always advancing, you know, two big releases a year, making sure people are keeping on top of those things as well.
[00:36:21] Phillip Blackmore: Yeah, absolutely. And it's a point you mentioned there, Steve, 'cause. See, I've known you for a long time and I know Joe who works with me at Catch has again, worked with you for a long time at, at Snowden and sort of, um, helped source people for you over the years. And I think it's a, it's a point and I always know Joe often will say to me or, or will sometimes say, I've.
I've identified, or I've spoken to someone who's like, I know they'll be, I know Steve will like them, and he always, he'll always say, he is like, I know. He says to me, I know Steve will like this person. He said, I could just, you know, and he, and it's a profile of person. And I do think certainly from a recruitment perspective, good recruiters.
Who have good relationships with clients, understand their clients at a level of debt. It's a bit like we were talking about earlier. If you have a good relationship with your customer and it's a deep relationship and it's open and it's honest and there's lots of, you know, information sharing back and forth, you can do a really good job for them.
If they give you the absolute bare minimum and you have not as much FaceTime or as contact as you like, it, it makes it more difficult. So the more contact and the deeper your relationships, but it's also about. For us, understanding the people, the culture, what does what, what works for you and for Snowden may be perfect for you, but in maybe like.
A big four environment, that person might say, that's not what I want. I don't like, I don't want to be that. But there is exactly the environment that works for me. And I think it's hugely valuable to, I guess, have that understanding and that depth of the people that we work with. But, but it is part of a culture that you have created there.
'cause I do think you have. Created that culture on the back of, and it probably stems from you, I guess, you know, it was your business and you, you probably look at people and have, and get involved in those interviews and look at people that have some similar personality traits yourself. It's natural, isn't it?
It must be.
[00:38:12] Steve Snowdon: no, it is, you know, that's, um, you know, it's exactly what I, I do look for personality in there because, um, you know, you're going to be working with other people, so you want them to, I, I do say to a lot of the guys, you know, 50% of what we do is knowing the skills and knowing, um, how to configure the system.
But if you can, you know, help people, um. Show them the way, help them learn, you know, um, have a great relationship. I, I don't mean like going to the pub every day or something like that, although that was more back in the old days. But, um, yeah, a, a little bit of a, you know. Fr or not a friendship, even just a bit of comradery.
Somebody they, that can support them. Often they do become sort of friends that you go to see two or three years later and say, how are you getting on? But, um, we've got clients, uh, we haven't, I don't think we've really got many clients that we don't still talk to. Um, and we're talking like eight, 10 years later.
It's quite a nice story. Just recently we did 2012 and then they went to D 365 and they came back and just said, oh, can you do the next one for us now? So that's quite rare. I think a lot of the time.
[00:39:15] Phillip Blackmore: I, I, I completely agree. I think it is, and I think that's testament to the business and the profile and the people that you've, you, you have within the business there. And it's, it's that repeatability. It's the fact that they, they get the, not, not necessarily the same people, but they get the same profile of individual.
They get the same experience from where they came to you back in 2012 to D 365 to a latest release. The customer gets the same experience. That continuity for a customer, especially with systems implementation. It must be huge to know that, well, we've used Snowden twice previously. It was a success. Why wouldn't we use them again?
Um, and having that relationship is huge. And Steve, if you kind of looking ahead, you know, bearing in mind the, and you've mentioned it there, the, the rapid updates, new features within D 365. How do you stay ahead of that, you know, with your team? It must that that must be a sort of a reasonable challenge.
I'll never forget years and years ago when Microsoft were messing around with, and it's a lot clearer now, and we had a point which. 2012 was gonna be verse Then the next release, it went to 2012 version 1, 2, 3 maybe. And then it was gonna be AX seven, then it was gonna be AX 2015. And then the partners couldn't sell anything for a while and it was, it was chaotic because no one knew how to sell a license 'cause there was no clear licensing model.
And it's probably a different challenge now because I think, I guess they got, those bits are a little bit clearer, but with the rapid changing a lot of updates and the features, how, how do you kind of stay ahead of that? Is, is that one of the biggest business challenges you have?
[00:40:48] Steve Snowdon: It is. But we're quite lucky and probably some of that does come into that personality side again, is that a lot of the guys that work with us are actually quite keen on quite interested in what's going on. You know, it's. Um, we, we have a teams chat and it's just, we have, we have a group chat, and we have another chat that's just called help.
So somebody will see something that's, um, like really quite cool, like the new warehouse management act with animal noises. That's, that's created quite, uh, so, yeah, but we're always looking and, you know, the new AI features in finance, all of those things. It's a case of, has anybody seen this? So, yeah, so you, as long as you've got an interest, and it's a bit like what we do when we take people on, actually sometimes when we're taking someone on, if they've come from an end user, we don't.
Prescribe which area they're going to work in initially, because if you're interested in something, you're gonna learn more so, so if they came in and I said, right, you're gonna be on the warehouse management app. And actually what they're really interested in is finance probably not gonna get too far.
So take a, take a little time, see what their skill set is, see where their interest is. 'cause then they'll always keep up to date afterwards. And that's true for everybody. I think that workforce us, to be honest.
[00:41:52] Phillip Blackmore: Yeah, fine. And Steve just talking on that piece, 'cause I know you've, I guess over the years there had been, um, you had always looked to that, um, that that profile of candidate has always sort of, you know, piqued your interest. Some that's been in an end user environment that certainly, um, I guess open-minded and broad of.
What they're gonna do in the future, what their job role might be, and but they've got the right personality traits, the right aptitude, the right sort of intelligence level as you may say, to develop into being a consultant. How does that differ then, though, as the business grows? And obviously then you have to start looking at maybe bringing in people that are more established, are more senior, have got, I guess, more, um, experience of coming in as a consultant.
Is that a little bit harder to recruit for? As a business, as a consultancy owner.
[00:42:42] Steve Snowdon: It is, we're probably not hit the number where it's really hurting or I say hurting, really causing too much an issue. 'cause you know, we we're looking after people, people are still getting that career path and I think when they, they do see somebody more senior come in, they realize that. It's being done for the, the right business reasons.
And often they will then work with those people and it will upskill them. So, and I think people within, within the organization get that. They don't sit there thinking, I'm not gonna get this opportunity. I, it's more a case of I can learn from that person and, you know, evolve later. Yeah. But I'm sure at some point we'll probably have, um, some people that feel that they could have perhaps taken that role like I did when I was younger, when I got looked over on certain things.
[00:43:24] Phillip Blackmore: And I think so it's, but I think, like you say, the culture that you've created within the organization as far as I can establish from an outsider looking in is like there isn't really a ceiling. There is opportunity, there is growth and it's a collaborative environment and people work together and people work as a team and people have face time with people.
I think that's something that's a big problem. You know, across sort of businesses and it, and tech is people just wanting to work from home all the time. People, you know, not having their cameras on when they have teams calls. And it's kind of this thing of just being faceless and nameless and I think in, in, in a world of ai, which is that we're sort of going into a, you know, a, a different era with it.
And I think there's some wonderful advancements, but I always come back to it and I say it, and I probably bore my staff sometimes with it, sometimes Steve, if I'm honest. But I always say the power of a human relationship. And being a human being and building a relationship with people and working with someone as in human being to human being and solving problems that shouldn't ever go, and that's an art form and being good at that is really important.
So AI is a great advancement to, to help you do certain things, but I think the people that really push themselves to be. You know, a face to be on calls to meet customers that do want to go on site. I think those are the people that will really, truly advance themselves a lot quicker than those that kind of wanna step back and, I guess yeah.
Be, be less present.
Steve, what, what does the future look like for you? If you know, do you have, and, and I'm sure you do have sort of plans, but you know, if you look five or 10 years down the line from now with 2025, if you look at 2030 and you sort of sat there and you, you know, maybe on holiday and you, you look back at, you know, the last five years, do you have an idea of where you'd like to be and where you'd like to go with the business, apart from maybe doing a little bit less work and maybe enjoying a bit more
[00:45:12] Steve Snowdon: Yeah. So in in 10 years it'll definitely be, I've got to be looking at the retirement thing really. I think that long enough. Then, um. So, so we're sort of gearing up for first part of this year. We could see that things were changing. So, you know, there is automation, you know, like the platform I've mentioned like the guide platform, RFPs, um, you know, fit gaps and all of those things could be streamlined.
And um, you know, fortunately we were at a size to say, right, let's take stock of where we're at. We've got all of these new fancy tools that can do all of these things for us, and let's put ourselves in a position where we can utilize those and. Make ourselves lean and sort of like, it's almost like job protection for the guys in
[00:45:53] Phillip Blackmore: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:45:56] Steve Snowdon: So yeah, we've been through that process for the last few months. And the other side that was great about that is that some of the people that we just talked about that perhaps, you know, not flat out on a project, they're all involved. So we're not sort of like excluding everyone. So, so they might not be training up to be their warehouse consultant, but you know, they're, they're now learning some of these other tools.
We've actually got a launch of some new stuff coming, so I can't say too much yet,
[00:46:17] Phillip Blackmore: Yeah,
[00:46:18] Steve Snowdon: New website, new products, our first products actually. And um, so that's, that's one of the areas where we're definitely looking at. There's some partnerships also that are coming out in the near, very near future. And, you know, I wouldn't be surprised to see S-N-C-L-A little bit further than just the UK and a few, and Europe is probably the, the answer that I would give you on that one.
Where we end up, I dunno, I think we'll be guided a little bit by the application. And, um, you know, some of the new things that we're doing as well that may not be just dynamics related, but, um, it's gonna be exciting times and, um, yeah, a lot of the guys in the organization do know bits and pieces, but, um, yeah, hopefully they'll like it.
[00:46:58] Phillip Blackmore: Yeah. Good. I'm sure they will. Steve, I think, you know, you've got, you've got people there that have been with you a long time and you know, you've, you've created a great business there. Before you go, there's a question that I always like to ask everyone that I speak to you, you mentioned they're a, a, a, a customer or an ex-customer coming back to, or a friend or a CIO or a CFO that you maybe know from social, you know, social environment.
And they come along and they knock on your door and they say, Hey, Steve. Been through, we've, we've done a product selection piece. Um, we're, we're gonna be implementing Microsoft Dynamics and um, we're gonna go on the Journey global piece of work over the next few years, are there any two or three key pieces of advice that you would look to say, look, a couple of pieces of advice that you, the customer, the business, should be aware of when going into this project and things that, you know, you should consider doing or being aware of or, or whatever it may be.
But, uh, is there. Is there anything specifically that you would, you would kind of lean on as, and you think there, what, what advice you might give someone that's about to do that?
[00:47:58] Steve Snowdon: On a global rollout, the absolute sort of critical part is you've got to get that first template.
[00:48:04] Phillip Blackmore: Mm-hmm.
[00:48:04] Steve Snowdon: So if you are gonna roll out to other countries, and yes, there's obviously nuances and they could be doing different things in different countries, but pick a hard one. Don't say we're gonna do a global template and then pick the sales office.
And then when you move to your next three countries, you've got huge manufacturing facility or something really complicated. You can always turn stuff off, but turning stuff on when you haven't gone through the initial process in the first place. So yeah, so the first one can be hard, but then the rest becomes significantly easier.
'cause everybody knows everything and everybody gets in there.
[00:48:35] Phillip Blackmore: Yeah.
[00:48:35] Steve Snowdon: Um. The one that we see more than anything now when we are talking about global processes, because, you know, people will be on different systems and it's the, it's the data and data will become harder and harder, um, as you get more applications and want to do more things in different areas.
So that's an area where you've got to be absolutely at the top of your game. Um, you get your data right, and you get that first template right. Then everything else will become a lot more straightforward.
[00:49:06] Phillip Blackmore: Brilliant.
[00:49:07] Steve Snowdon: Fail on either of those and you're gonna be having an upward battle for years.
[00:49:11] Phillip Blackmore: Yeah, you're gonna be struggling, Steve. That's really interesting. It's, um, it's such a good point when you, when you think about it, it's, you know, sometimes making your life a little bit more difficult at the beginning, you know, challenging to get that template right. For, you know, the, probably the, I guess what you're suggesting is.
Kind of the biggest, the most, maybe the most complex site you've got within the business is that's what the template should almost be based upon. And the data piece is vital, isn't it? You, you hear about it all the time. You know, data migration being left till later in the day, not being at at, at the forefront.
Steve, that's brilliant. Um. Steve, thank you so much for your time today. I've, I've taken up plenty of your time. I know you, you're busy and you've got plenty on, but, you know, thank you so much for talking to us about, you know, how you got into the market, you know, the journey that you've gone on from being a, you know, a super highly regarded individual, independent contractor within our space to, to growing a, you know, a fantastic consultancy business there that you have got at Snowden.
So, yeah, thank you ever so much for your time.
[00:50:10] Steve Snowdon: No thank you Phil. And I just wanna return the complement. You know, CATCH has been, you know, at the forefront of decrease six five con recruitment for as long as I've been in the game. So I'm not quite sure how long you look a lot younger
[00:50:20] Phillip Blackmore: Wow. I got, I got into it, yeah, when I was in my early twenties. So I'm getting a little bit older and a little bit grayer now, Steve, I, I blame my children for that, but, um, yeah, no, we've, I think we've worked together for a long time, so, and that's, that's everything about this market. It's everything that I enjoy about it.
It's relationships, it's longevity, and it's about, it's like what we talked about as we were talking earlier. It's about actually, you know, knowing the people you're dealing with and building some proper relationships. It can, you know, it can make things a lot easier. That's for sure.
[00:50:48] Steve Snowdon: Thank you, Phil.
[00:50:51] Phillip Blackmore: Thank you for listening today. Please subscribe to stay up to date with our latest episodes and watch the full video episode on YouTube.